By A feud between Japan and the newly elected government of Australia is growing as the Japanese whaling fleet has moved into Antarctic waters to conduct their yearly whale hunt. The usual eco-loons have called for the deployment of the Royal Australian Navy to intercept the Japanese whaling fleet. The new Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has instead decided to deploy a customs boat and surveillance aircraft to follow the Japanese whaling boats. The Australian government claims the boat and aircraft will be used to gather evidence to bring the Japanese to an international court over their whaling activities.
This is simple appeasement of the eco-loons at the expense of the Japanese because what the Japanese are doing is perfectly legal. The Japanese through the International Whaling Commission which Australia is part of, sets yearly quotas for the Japanese to whale in the name of scientific research. If someone is concerned about the Japanese whaling activities then why not work through the IWC to change the whaling quotas for the Japanese? The ones conducting illegal activities are the eco-loons who attack the Japanese ships causing property damage and injuries of Japanese crewmen by throwing acid at them. By the Australian government deploying government assets to intercept the Japanese whaling fleet legitimizes the violent actions of the eco-loons.
So why is the Australian government doing this? I think because it is a simple way to appease the eco-loons while calculating that the Japanese will do nothing in response. Does anyone think this same action would be taken if the whalers were Chinese? Notice these eco-loons and the Australian government are not attacking or gathering evidence against the northern Europeans who do not have any IWC mandated quotas and openly whale commercially.
I don’t like whaling, but I don’t like eating horses either which a lot of culture take part in thus I find the whole bashing of Japan over their whaling activities highly hypocritical. The Japanese have a population of a 128 million, but their home islands can only produce food for 40% of their population. That is why seafood has always been a staple of the Japanese diet. It seems very hypocritical that people from western countries like Australia that have small populations, but abundant land to grow food on to criticize the Japanese for providing food for their own population. If these countries don’t want the Japanese to harvest whales through the legal means that the IWC has allowed them to, then why don’t these nations provide the equivalent amount of food free of charge to Japan?
What is so ridiculous about this whole debate is that few Japanese eat whale meat in the first place. Historically the Japanese have whaled in historically low numbers. It seems very hypocritical that the western nations that were responsible for whales reaching the point of extinction in the first place due to the heavy demand of whale oil, are condemning Japan now for the low level of whaling they continue to do. As a matter of fact, many cities along the coast of Australia were actually founded by whalers. Australia’s early economy was based on whaling before agriculture took hold to become the main export.
This leads to my next point that Australia is further hypocritical because of the clearing of land in Australia for agriculture to feed their population and for export has led to massive deforestation and environmental damage leading to the extinction of numerous Australian species with more species being threatened with extinction today. One of the national icons of Australia, the koala is now a threatened species with only 100,000 left in the wild due to the loss of habitat. In another outspoken anti-whaling nation New Zealand, their national icon the kiwi bird is quickly approaching extinction with only 20,000 left in the wild. At the current rate of decline the kiwi will be extinct in approximately 20 years. Once again this is brought on by loss of habitat in New Zealand.
The numbers of both of these national icons are far lower than the total number of minke whales which total 184,000 left in the wild that the Japanese are whaling for. The Japanese are not causing whales to go extinct if they stick to the whaling quota given to them by the IWC, but national icons of both Australia and New Zealand are going extinct. So how come no one is protesting and demanding these nations protect these animals? So how come no one is gathering evidence on these nations to bring them to an international court? The answer is obvious because it would be ridiculous, but in the case of Japan since they are international punching bags it is okay to do so to them.
Can anyone imagine what the reaction would be in Australia or New Zealand if Japanese protesters came and started attacking farmers, loggers, and real estate developers to protect koalas and kiwis? Better yet what would these nations think if the Japanese military or governmental assets were mobilized to monitor the protection of these species?
The ironic thing about all of this, is that the actions of the environmental movement have in fact made it more likely that more whales will be hunted in the future. In response to the anti-whaling attacks the Japanese government has turned the whaling issue into one of nationalism by wanting their people to stand up against the western hypocrites. The Japanese government has now included whale meat in school lunches in show of solidarity with the whalers. Also many Japanese want to make a stand with whales because if they don’t the eco-loons will be emboldened to find another species to advocate for like tuna, which is a fish that the majority of Japanese people do eat.
If the environmentalists had actually approached this issue in a mature manner through the IWC like a suggested, the eating of whale meat probably would have naturally died off in Japan because the older people that grew up eating it would eventually age and pass away over the years thus reducing the financial incentive to whale. Now due to the eco-loons, a whole new generation of Japanese children will now grow up eating whale meat.
What is further interesting about this, is that this issue is something that Koreans and Japanese actually share a common interest in. Koreans have long been condemned for eating dogs in much the same way the Japanese are being criticized for eating whales. Few people in Korea eat dogs, but due to the attacks on Korea from the eco-loons the eating of dogs has become an issue of nationalism as well. The practice of eating dogs would have probably died out naturally over the years much like the Japanese eating whales, but the do gooder eco-loons had to get involved. Their actions have probably assurred both practices will continue for some time. Way to go environmental movement. People wonder why I can’t stand the eco-loons.
1:06 am on December 21st, 2007 1
I'm against whale hunting. Are they still using the harpoons to hook the whales?
Having said that, I find the American response to this issue to be a typical "let's fight the establishment" sentiment. You can expect the inevitable parallel drawn up between whale hunting and Japanese war atrocities, suspicions about Japanese whaling companies hiding behind the veil of "tradition" to justify making profits out of whale meat, and the oversimplified (almost imperialist) attitude that Japan should embrace enlightenment by rejecing tradtions that conflicts with modern standards.
One of the actresses from the show "Heroes" went to Japan to protest whale hunting and even made a show of crying in camera. She told the American media something to the effect of "bad traditions should change" LOL. Questionable or not, she probably understands next to nothing about Japanese culture. But it doesn't readily subscribe to some liberal agenda, so it can be dismissed with a wave of a hand.
3:32 am on December 21st, 2007 2
I don't like whale hunting either but I understand why the Japanese do it just like I understand why Koreans eat dog meat. As long as it is done humanely and they are not over harvesting the species then I don't have a problem with it even though I don't like it.
The reaction of the eco-loons has only made the situation worse but they feel better about themselves and I'm sure their sponsorship money is growing and growing the more outrageous they become.
4:21 am on December 21st, 2007 3
I, for one, am GLAD to see somebody doing something about the pesky global whale infestation.
10:06 pm on December 21st, 2007 4
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7:14 am on December 21st, 2007 5
You shouldn't even call them "eco loons," since the whale species hunted are not in the slightest bit threated with extinction, and some like the Minke Whale are very abundant. This is animal rights activism falsely calling itself environmentalism.
9:53 am on December 21st, 2007 6
I don't even know if they should even be considered animal rights activists because they sure don't care about the plight of koalas or the kiwi bird. Most of the followers of the eco-faith are just ignorant while the leaders are demagogues.
10:50 am on December 21st, 2007 7
I object to Japan's Antarctic whale hunting for these reasons:
1. I think it's wrong for countries to impose their culture on areas 1000s of kms away. Japan often plays the victim and whines about how Western nations are unfairly imposing their values on Japan in regards to whaling. The truth is the opposite. Japan is imposing it's values and culture on the Antarctic… a pristine wilderness area that does NOT belong to Japan. There may be agreements that allow this to happen but I believe such agreements are wrong and need to be amended.
2. In my opinion, Japanese "food culture" DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT extend to the Antarctic. These marathon Victorian-era style voyages half-way around the globe are ludicrous in this day and age. The Japanese often trot out the argument of how they undertake whaling because they just want to protect their traditional local food culture… since when did their food culture stretch all the way to the Antarctic?! They should stick to catching whales in their own coastal or near-coastal waters if the they want to protect a local food culture.
3. Trotting 1000s of kms around the globe emits tonnes of greenhouse gases unnecessarily. Catch them near your own country and cut those emissions.
4. Many people, me included, think that they have a right to have the whales live undisturbed in the Antarctic. Why should Japan have a "right to take" which automatically trumps my rights? I understand there are agreements but I think these agreements are wrong. I believe more and more people are feeling this way and in the future people will increasingly demand that their rights be taken account of. This automatic "right to take" in international waters, which trumps everyone else's rights is absurd in this day and age.
11:52 am on December 21st, 2007 8
Australia/New Zealand do not have a perfect record re environmental issues – but they have a much better record than many countries. Do they go within reach of Japan to harvest food for themselves? Country/population size is not the issue. That is for Japan to control.
6:49 pm on December 21st, 2007 9
Do you suppose the Japanese would be willing to allow Americans to go dynamite fishing in international waters off the coast of Japan?
Redneck fishing culture must be protected!
7:55 am on December 22nd, 2007 10
To AGuyInJapan,
Yes Japan doesn't own the Antarctic but neither do you or the rest of the eco-loons. If you don't like the Japanese violating your so called "rights" then why should you expect the Japanese to have their same rights violated by you? That is why international agreements are reached to determine what people can do in the Antarctic which the Japanese are in full compliance with.
Your greenhouse gas comment is humorous when compared to the amount of greenhouse emissions that come from cattle grazing in Australia.
To GR,
NZ and Australia do not need to go to Japan to get food because like I said they have huge lands to grow food for their own populations, which brings back to my argument that these countries are causing massive environmental damage because of their farming and grazing activities compared to the Japanese that are committing no environmental damage hunting whales that are not endangered.
5:59 pm on December 22nd, 2007 11
a few points.
comparing eating horse or dog with whales is misleading. i know many people do have an irrational gut reaction like this but there are other significant logical reasons for not hunting whales. namely:
1) they are in a "whale sanctuary". that should mean something. just like a reserve for elephants shouldnt be infringed on because i happen to want some ivory trinkets.
2) whilst not all whale species are no longer critically endangered, populations are still a miniscule percentage of historical levels. lets let them build up a bit. we live in an incredibly naturally impoverished world already.
3) increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide are being absorbed by the oceans. very soon, it is predicted, a threshold will be reached where many microfauna will no longer be able to produce calcium based skeletal structures. ie. too much carbon, no bio-calcification, no base of food web, no krill means most of the oceans biome including whales will be in deep shit. needless over hunting could be that straw to break the camels back in light of this.
4) koreans tend to kill dogs in inhumane ways (the prior beating). much as this disgusts me, slowing killing a large intelligent social mammal (whales) for up to half an hour is way more unacceptable. if we are gonna eat meat, lets avoid unnecessary suffering.
a better analogy than dog or horse or kangaroos (which anti-anti-whaling morons always seem to bring up) would be fishing the highly endangered golden ruffy ( which you can still buy in australian supermarkets) – this is on par with selling panda steaks, from elderly pandas.
further points.
THE ISSUE IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE AVERAGE JAPANESE BUT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE AVERAGE AUSTRALIAN.
i have lived in japan the last 3 years. the average japanese has never had whale and those who have dont particularly like it. they dont care one way or another. as with most political decisions, this one is being made by grumpy old men stuck in their ways. this is about saving face. once they have decided on a path, to change it would mean to accept they were wrong – or even worse – to have to take orders from the gaijin. as for australians, many of the animals under contention migrate through australian waters or live in australias arctic territory (not recognised internationally, but hey) and hence they feel a sense of stewardship.
KOALAS AND KIWIS ARE NOT ENDANGERED DUE TO HABITAT LOSS.
kiwis are in trouble due to introduced predators (cats, foxes, and recently australian possums). koalas are not endangered. there is strong evidence that populations were historically very low (due to the ease with which an aborigine could spot and spear a big drowsy bag of meat hanging in a tree like dogs balls). there are many highly endangered australian mammals, of which i am sure you are ignorant of their existence, let alone the causes and solutions to their troubled situation. furthermore, both governments have enormous resources devoted to conservation efforts to reverse the damage that has been done. a lot of it is ineffective due to the intractable problems of controlling or eradicating feral species. on the other hand, japan is devoting resources to destruction the largest organisms that have ever lived.
LAND CLEARING IS BAD. SO WHAT?
the issue at hand is whaling. australia has an awful record in regard to both ( whaling and land management). however, through democratic processes and an engaged citizenry we are changing for the better. japan has a scary tendency where once something institutional starts it keeps steam-rolling until crisis.
SCIENTIFIC WHALING IS BOGUS.
japan is making use of a legal loophole. that law was made for the intent of genuine research. all data they collect can be gathered without killing the animals. and of the more than 15 years of publications, almost none are of any legitimate scientific value. scientific whaling is a hearty one-fingered salute to multilateral agreement and has done enormous damage to japans relations with the rest of the world.
WHALE MEAT CONTAINS DANGEROUS LEVELS OF HEAVY METALS.
even assuming the hunt is legit and ethical, the meat is not fit for human consumption.
WHALE MEAT IS A VERY INSIGNIFICANT COMPONENT OF THE JAPANESE DIET. thus, your rant about hypercritical australians with lots of land is bogus. japanese have a much larger ecological footprint than the size of japan. they have kept this imbalance afloat thru aggressive exporting of high-tech gadgets and porn. i wish them the best of luck in the future. however, whales just dont enter into the equation.
IN JAPAN EATING WHALE IS AS TRADITIONAL AS DRESSING LIKE ELVIS. only a lot less popular. postwar, under american guidance, whale hunting helped provide desperately needed nutrition for an impoverished, carpet bombed nation. current japan is a completely different kettle of fish.
8:25 am on December 23rd, 2007 12
1. The whales are in international waters. Elephants are on land in a sovereign country. The Japanese are not whaling in Australian waters.
2. The whales being hunted are not at their historic high levels but their not endangered either. That is why the Japanese follow a quota by the IWC to allow them to whale responsibly unlike when the western world hunted them to near extinction for oil.
3. This point actually supports whaling because if krill is running low in the oceans then it makes sense to then out the whale population before they starve to death.
4. I clearly said in comment #2 that they should be harvested humanely and not over harvesting. How else you kill a whale besides an explosive harpoon like the Japanese do is beyond me.
"KOALAS AND KIWIS ARE NOT ENDANGERED DUE TO HABITAT LOSS."
This is clearly false. Introduced species such as the possum killing kiwis goes hand in hand with their reduced habitat. The Maori guide I had at Te Puia told me specifically that kiwi birds are being killed just as much by being road kill as they are by possums because in many areas they no longer have vasts forests to hide and forage in thus exposing them to predators and having to cross roads. Within years only certain areas on the south island will even have wild kiwis any more.
It is much the same problem with koalas. Less habitat means they have to move around more to get food which causes them to cross roads and become road kill and makes them vulnerable to dogs. The Australian Koala Foundation clearly states this:
https://www.savethekoala.com/koalasendangered.htm…
The Tasmanian Devil population is being ravished by a facial tumor disease due to decreased habitat causing inbreeding and a lack of genetic diversity. The list goes on and on.
"LAND CLEARING IS BAD. SO WHAT?"
Australians clear land to provide food for Australians as well as for export markets. This has greatly effected the environment in Australia. Japan only whales for their domestic market with no massive adverse effects on the environment because they follow a strict quota system set by the IWC.
If you think Australia is changing for the better you might want to take a trip to rural Australia especially the Western Australian wheat belt to see how the land clearing is devestating the environment:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/10/1…
I can think of many environmental issues in Australia that are far more serious than the whale issue and yet little is done about it.
"SCIENTIFIC WHALING IS BOGUS"
It is not bogus because it authorized by the IWC. If eco-loons don't like it change the law instead of ramming Japanese boats and throwing acid at their sailors. At least the Japanese are working with the international community through the IWC which the northern Europeans are not with their open commercial whaling which for some reason the eco-loons do not seem to concerned about.
"WHALE MEAT CONTAINS DANGEROUS LEVELS OF HEAVY METALS."
That is up to the choice of the Japanese consumer not the eco-loons to determine.
"WHALE MEAT IS A VERY INSIGNIFICANT COMPONENT OF THE JAPANESE DIET. "
I clearly said in my posting the vast majority of Japanese do not eat whale but the actions of the eco-loons have turned it into an issue of nationalism for the Japanese that will ensure they keep eating whale. Way to go eco-loons.
7:09 pm on December 24th, 2007 13
1. yes, its international waters. and yes, technically the IWC grants japan permission. but, the vote-rigging and fradulent use of "science" to continue commercial whaling renders the institution a farce. as international waters, nations have a right to voice their opposition – it is not japans soveriegn right.
2. i think we are agreeing here.
"3. This point actually supports whaling because if krill is running low in the oceans then it makes sense to then out the whale population before they starve to death." so following this reasoning, we should do some more sarin gas bomb attacks to thin out the japanese population before their "tradional" source of food disappears. r u trying to be funny?
4. if they cant be killed humanely, then dont kill them!!! it could be argued that it is a more ethical option to eat an animal that has lived a free life than say, eating KFC battery-reared chicken who live miserable lives. but, the drawn out death is a serious problem. and if brain size is to be used as a rough gauge of intelligence, self-awareness etc – whales will be a bit up the scale over inbred docile farm animals.
HABITAT LOSS
loss of habitat does have negative impacts for koalas and kiwis, but the biggy is other organisms. again, the devil problem is biological (not a landscape managment issue). the devils have a rare and interesting cancer that is contagious – this is not related to inbreeding or landclearing. 70% of tasmania is forest reserve, and this is without the traditional fire-stick farming of the extinct tasmanian aboriginal culture – so habitat is not a problem. i think you should conceed when and where you dont know shit from shinola. as i said, there are many soon to be extinct animals and plants in australia – some of which the main cause is landclearing – and almost all of which you know nothing about. the koaka foundation is a bunch of lamington-drive old ladies who like cute little teddybear animals. the koala recieves the attention because it is cute – not because it is in a dire situation. some populations on islands are actually in need of culling because the damage they are doing to trees, but this sensible measure is politically out of the question. furthermore, australian landclearing is for the purpose of exporting agricultural and forestry products – japan being our biggest customer, and hence they are equally culpable in the descruction.
the landclearing is awful, and ( i will agree with you on this) a bigger problem than killing a few whales. but this is not the issue we are debating.
i think japan shouldnt whale and i think it is great that the australian public and body politic are stirring the shitpot with this one.
also, you are spot on about it being pushed into an issue of nationalism. it should have just been a another decision made in the machinations of beaurocracy long ago and nobody in japan would have noticed or cared. the fact that other countries applied pressure, insulted and then galvanised the fisheries people. so now we are stuck with this ludicrous situation.
12:32 am on December 25th, 2007 14
1. Vote rigging? All the anti-whaling nations can promise aid to nations that make up the IWC just as easily as the Japanese. Using your logic the entire United Nations is a farce which then I would agree with. Yes people can voice their opposition against Japanese whaling but they don't have the right to ram Japanese boats and throw acid at them causing injuries. The opposition would have a whole lot more credibility if they protested the north Europeans as actively as they do the Japanese.
3. In America deer are hunted because if they are not thinned out they will starve to death. In Australia culling of kangaroos has happened before because their numbers were to high and numbers of them were starving to death:
http://www.education.theage.com.au/pagedetail.asp…
Also brain size has nothing to do with intelligence as studies have shown:
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Myths/br-si-bo.ht…
Habitat Loss:
As far as the devil goes take a look at this map where the diseased devils are located:
http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/WebPages/LBU…
Do you think it is just a coincidence that the diseased devils started where the population center of Tasmania is located and did not start where the large protected world heritage area is?
As far as koalas I know you are referring to kangaroo island where their has been talks to cull them. The koalas thrive on kangaroo island because of the abundant bushland and the fact they don't have to travel long distance in between forests to find food that exposes them to being hit by cars or killed by dogs. The koalas probably won't be an issue on the island now with the bushfires that ravaged the island this year.
Nevertheless since you believe the number of koalas are not a problem even though they are a near threatened species then you have to concede the number of whales being hunted isn't a problem either. I also find it interesting how you dismiss the koala foundation for wanting to protect cute animals when the same logic can be used to dismiss the anti-whaling eco-loons as well.
Also the fact that Japan buys much of the forestry products from Australia I am well aware of and another point of conflict I have with eco-loons. There is a big movement by the eco-loons to stop the Gunns mill in Tasmania and reduce logging in general in Australia. We have the same problem in America with our tree huggers as well as Canada.
However, the tree huggers have actually caused more trees to be cut down due to their activities. If responsible nations like Australia, America, or Canada are not providing lumber for nations like Japan they will turn to other countries like Indonesia, PNG, or Brazil that do not replant the trees they cut. So if the tree huggers stop Gunns then the Japanese will have to turn to somewhere else like Borneo to get lumber where the trees will not be replanted. Once again way to go eco-loons.
Also I have lived in Australia, visit frequently, and follow what is going on there. I have yet to meet an Australian that has traveled around Australia more than I have. It has always amazed me how many Australians have never been to Kakadu or even Uluru but it seems like all Australians have been to Thailand and Bali.
That is probably why so few are concerned with the bigger environmental problems in Australia as they are with whaling. Take a hike up the Stirling Ranges or even Google Earth it and see how many salt lakes have risen from the land clearing. It is shocking. There are much larger environmental issues in Australia yet for example the Channel 9 website has a petition to stop the Japanese whale "slaughter" but I have yet to see a petition to address the "slaughter" of the Australian environment from land clearing.
7:44 am on December 25th, 2007 15
brain size does has something to do with intelligence. obviously other factors are at play. which is why some bird species like crows exhibit complaex intelligent behaviours and yet have comparatively small brains. nonetheless, a mouse is smarter than a nemotode and i would bet a whale would be a lot more switched on than a jersey cow. anyway, this is nitpicking on the side. the main point was it is cruel to kill an intelligent social animal very slowly.
habitat loss is a bad thing, i never said it wasnt. your choice of examples speak volumes about your ignorance though. koalas are not endangered and as i said, there is strong evidence that they have had very dispersed low populations for the last 40000years of human settelement anyway. the australian animals that have gone extinct in the last 200 years or will soon are predominantly smaller desert mammals. habitat alteration is not an issue in these cases. its introduced species.
the obvious solution is for japan and everyone else to use less raw materials – not to choose between SE Asian rainforest and first world plantation.
devils. what connection are you trying to draw between a random mutation in the genome allowing cancerous polyps to become contagious and tasmanian people? you are clutching at straws. why not concede you were typing out of your arse on something you dont know much about?
the gunns mill is a bad move as the company is bad itself. more pollution, more industrial forestry. i am all for cultivating a truely sustainable forestry industry – but gunns is way off track in this regard – poison baiting, massive soil erosion due to clear felling, monoculture plantation replacing biologically rich ecosystems. they may get 1 or 2 harvests from their agroforestry programs and then that land will be barren (like much of the midlands are already). opposing this is ecoloon. it is rational and ethical.
yes, australians have a terrible record with land management. social enertia and environmental processes already in motion will mean that many problems will get worse before they get better. opinions, policy and action are changing for the better though. this is a stark contrast to japan. japanese are largely ignorant of the unseen effects their lifestyle has on the outside world. and they continue to perceive modernity as a concrete wonderland. anyway, once again, this is off track. the issue is japanese whaling. australians should be doing more to manage natural resources at home. but this does not exclude their democratic right to express their opinion and fight what they rightly perceive to be an unnecessary, cruel and outdated practice (killing whales).
12:06 am on December 26th, 2007 16
"use less raw materials?" Japan is one of the best recycling nations I have seen but with a population of 128 million people on those islands people need wood products. Plus Japan's consumption of wood is going to be miniscule with the resources that China and India will consume as there economies grow and modernize. Wood is going to need to come from somewhere and due to the eco-loons that wood is probably going to come from areas that will not be replanted.
I never said Koalas are an endangered species they are a threatened species
http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/168…
75 years ago there was 8 million koalas in the wild and now there is roughly 100,000 which is less than whales species the Japanese are hunting.
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-koala.ht…
Where are the petitions on Channel 9 to save koalas? The kiwi is even in much more dire straights in NZ. The Maori seemed to be the only ones concerned with that. Saving whales is not about conservation or the environment it is about feelings.
4:11 am on December 26th, 2007 17
Face it, GI… regardless of other animals' populations, other country's track records, eco-loons' dogmatic focus, Japanese traditions, etc., it's awful hard to give good reasons to kill whales minding their own business in the wild.
Babies look tasty and there are certainly way too many of them (far outnumbering whales)… but most members of society just can't bring themselves to stick 'em with a fork and eat 'em because it just doesn't seem like the correct thing to do.
While it is certainly possible to show the faults of the eco-loons, their idiocy doesn't make whale hunting right.
Championing whale hunting takes away from your main point that eco-loons are… well… loons.
"Saving whales is not about conservation or the environment it is about feelings."
There is some truth to this… and, if one spends a bit of time with whales, one may develop some of the same feelings toward them as with dogs. With education and experience, normal, non-psychopathic folks just find it hard to advocate the torture and killing of large, social, intelligent animals.
This is not bad… it's this same empathy for another living thing that keeps most of us from being serial killers.
5:50 am on December 29th, 2007 18
[...] Beer. The owner of Blue Tongue Beer, John Singleton just happens to be a big supporter of the eco-loon group the Sea Sheppard Society who makes it a yearly mission to attack the Japanese whalers by ramming [...]
7:10 pm on December 28th, 2007 19
To GIKorea,
"Yes Japan doesn’t own the Antarctic but neither do you or the rest of the eco-loons. If you don’t like the Japanese violating your so called “rights†then why should you expect the Japanese to have their same rights violated by you? "
I think you misunderstood so let me explain it for you. I think the agreements are wrong.
The Japanese believe they have a right to grab resources in the Antarctic and obviously existing agreements allow this. However, I believe I have a right to have the whales in the Antarctic left undisturbed and so I think the agreements are wrong and outdated. More and more people think this way. Why should this "right to take" trump all other rights. The disaster befalling our oceans right now calls in to question the existing agreements. Marathon voyages 1000s of kms around the globe to grab resources are absurd in this day and age.
"Your greenhouse gas comment is humorous when compared to the amount of greenhouse emissions that come from cattle grazing in Australia. "
I am opposed to industrial scale cattle farming, so what's your point? What is humorous is your high-school debating technique.
I notice you made no comments about how unacceptable it is for Japan to impose its culture and values on the Antarctic. That's no doubt because even you can't bring yourself to defend it.
10:31 pm on December 28th, 2007 20
Culture and values on the Antarctic? What the hell does that even mean? No one even lives where they hunt whales. You may not like industrial cattle farming but what are you doing to stop it compared to saving the whales? Nothing.
Just admit it the whale issue has nothing to do with the environment or conservation and everything to do with your feelings.
7:48 pm on December 30th, 2007 21
I think you need to read more about what the Japanese themselves are saying about whaling. The need to continue whaling is always linked to their "food culture" so let's take them up on what they are saying… since when did their food culture extend all the way to the Antarctic!?
Have a look at this link to get an idea of the opnions of Japanese pro-whalers. Some of these articles are hilarious… http://www.whaling.jp/english/isana.html
You'll never find a bunch of middle-aged men with bigger chips on their shoulders… and you're defending these people!!
Your "what are you doing to stop it?" comment again reminds me of the debates in high school. You could make that comment to anybody in any debate, so… err… we can't debate anything, right?
Pathetic.
The Japanese whale issue, for me, is connected with the double standards of the Japanese. On the one hand they solemnly harp on about their "local traditional food culture" but on the other hand they send a fleet of high-tech ships to the far-corners of the globe to grab the resources for it. Anyone can see the dichotomy there.
If they want to protect a local traditional food culture (as they put it) they'd do better to take the whales locally.
These marathon voyages are absurd in this day and age and are making Japan look like a bunch of 18th century loonies.
12:44 am on December 31st, 2007 22
There are Japanese fish all across the world because they have to feed 128 million people. Australia has an entire continent to feed 21 million people.
You bring up double standards in regards to Japan but ignore your own.
To review my main points which it seems people are having a hard time disputing:
- This is not an environmental issue, this is not a conservation issue, and this is not a territorial issue as the whale advocates claim.
- This is a dispute based on feelings.
- The Japanese want to commercially whale like other nations but want to do it through an international agreement.
- The tactics of the anti-whale people are only making the situation worse.
- If the anti-whale nations negotiated in good faith with the Japanese I'm willing to bet an agreement on Antarctic whaling could be reached.
- This issue is obscuring much larger real environmental issues that these same nations condemning Japan won't deal with.
3:55 am on December 31st, 2007 23
I tend to agree with your points, which were not clear in your initial "Look at this racist Aussie video" and subsequent "Look at this interesting Japanese video" posts.
12:31 pm on December 31st, 2007 24
"This is not an environmental issue, this is not a conservation issue, and this is not a territorial issue as the whale advocates claim."
Don't be ridiculous. Any dispute connected to ocean resources involves all these aspects.
"This is a dispute based on feelings."
Yeah, right! Japan's feelings that in order to protect a "local traditional food culture" they have to send a big fleet of high-tech ships to the Antarctic! I really would love to know how on earth they think their food culture can extend to the furthest reaches of the globe!! They apply all this "local traditional food culture" crap to the dish on the table but not to the means of getting it there. As I said, these Victorian-era style journeys halfway around the globe to grab resources look completely ludicrous in this day and age.
As I also said, why should their assumed "right-to-take" trump everything?! Increasing numbers of people feel they have a "right-to have-the-whales-left-in-peace" in the Antarctic. This dispute (from my point of view) IS based on feelings to the extent that I feel that I have this right. Therefore the agreements that allow the current situation are, for me, completely wrong and should be revised.
However, I'm a reasonable person. I think Japan should be allowed to catch whales, but only in its coastal or near-coastal waters. That would also fit in much better with its oh-so-important "local traditional food culture".
"The tactics of the anti-whale people are only making the situation worse."
The tactics of the Japanese are making the situation worse… they could take all their whales near Japan and that would, I believe, shut up all except the most extreme whale huggers. It would shut me up, for the reasons I have given above.
"If the anti-whale nations negotiated in good faith with the Japanese I’m willing to bet an agreement on Antarctic whaling could be reached."
Japan's whaling policy has been hijacked by a group of rabid pro-whaling nutters who see this as matter of national pride.
Have a look again at the link I gave above to see how they really think: http://www.whaling.jp/english/isana.html
The things they come out with are hilarious!!
However, they are blind to how ridiculous it looks for this national pride to be stretched all the way to include the Antarctic.
The real problem is these stubborn middle-aged Japanese men… and make sure they are all men, and all middle-aged. No women or young people's views are reflected in Japan's whaling policy.
"This issue is obscuring much larger real environmental issues that these same nations condemning Japan won’t deal with."
It's not. I was at the Eco-Products Fair in Tokyo earlier in December and saw plenty of evidence of all kinds of "large and real" environmental issues being addressed, both by Japan and other countries. Pretty inspiring, actually.
2:48 pm on December 31st, 2007 25
Aguyinjapan = A Korean in Japan.
2:35 pm on January 16th, 2008 26
[...] environmental conservation issue I will direct them to this quote from Flannery even though I have repeatedly linked to whale populations compared to the numbers hunted as evidence. So since it is not a territorial [...]
12:13 pm on January 31st, 2008 27
[...] Click here to read more. Click here to return to Korea Click here to return to MySpace News. [...]
12:16 pm on March 16th, 2009 28
Whales have feelings. I'm not sure about some people here who seem like cold blooded monsters.
7:47 am on November 10th, 2009 29
I think a point is being missed….Japan states that they whale for research …… not food! they eat what they do not use in research yes? prehaps the money they use for whaling and the ships and the wages and all of the other expenses could go into better import/export routes to feed the population rather than the more'long term method'
5:05 pm on January 5th, 2010 30
Regarding the area of Aus and NZ available for farming; are you aware of how much of the former is too dry, and the latter to mountainous to be productive? Still, NZ is a net exporter of food, as you suggest they should be. I fail to see how food production or availability has anything to do with the argument anyway, since these are "scientific" kills you are talking about, and whale is apparently such a minor part of Japanese diet. NZ also effectively stopped clearing native forest a long time ago. Yes, the damage has been done, just like whaling in the past, now they are working hard at repairing that damage, unlike whalers.
Your Maori guide at Te Puia was, unsurprisingly, completely uninformed. Possums are not the major threat to kiwi, nor are roads or habitat loss. The #1 threat to kiwi is the introduced stoat, probably followed by dogs. There are vast areas of suitable habitat that have no kiwi because of these predators.
You would do well to get your facts right before accusing other peoples and countries of things you clearly know little about in a weak attempt to justify the actions of the Japanese whalers.
9:20 pm on January 5th, 2010 31
The ecology advocates terrorists got theirs today. Glad no one was hurt, but this is silly.
January 6, 2010 – 7:16PM
The high-tech stealth boat Ady Gil was cut in half and sunk by a Japanese security vessel in Antarctic waters today, dramatically upping the stakes in the annual struggle between whalers and protesters.
Sea Shepherd group leader Paul Watson told Fairfax Media the $1.5 million Ady Gil was sinking, but its six-man crew had been rescued and was uninjured.
Earlier today, the fleet was contacted for the first time by the Ady Gil and Sea Shepherd's "secret" third vessel, the Bob Barker.
Where the collision occurred, according to Sea Shepherd.
Where the collision occurred, according to Sea Shepherd.
Captain Watson, aboard the Steve Irwin, said he was still 500 nautical miles from the scene.
"This seriously escalates the whole situation," Captain Watson said of the collision.
The ICR said the Ady Gil came "within collision distance" directly in front of the Nisshin Maru bow and repeatedly deployed a rope from its stern "to entangle the Japanese vessel's rudder and propeller".
The statement accused the activists of shining a laser device at the Nisshin Maru crew and launching acid-filled projectiles, one of which landed on the vessel's deck.
After broadcasting a warning message, the Nisshin Maru sprayed the Ady Gil with water cannons to prevent it from coming closer, the ICR said.
Captain Watson told Fairfax in November the Ady Gil would be used to intercept the whaling fleet's chaser boats.
"What I think we can do is latch onto at least one of the three harpoon vessels and keep them out of the picture," he said.
Looking more like Batman's spacecraft than a boat, the biodiesel-powered trimaran Ady Gil arrived at the Southern Ocean stand-off between Japanese whalers and activists yesterday.
It was reported this morning to be about 50 nautical miles away from the whaling fleet.
Japan's Fisheries Minister Hirotaka Akamatsu had earlier warned two security ships would be used to protect the whaling fleet, intervening when Sea Shepherd tried to block the transfer of harpooned whales to the factory ship Nisshin Maru.
Captain Watson this morning announced the existence of a secret third ship in the Sea Shepherd flotilla.
He said he was confident that with three ships, Sea Shepherd would be able to cause maximum disruption to the whaling, which has been underway for around a month.
Japanese whalers have stepped up security this year, sending spy flights from Australian airports to track protest ships.
The Hobart flights were paid for by Wellington-based Omeka Communications, air industry sources told Fairfax.
Omeka is a public relations firm retained by Japan's Institute of Cetacean Research. The Hobart flights carried Omeka's principal, Glenn Inwood, who is an institute spokesman, and another man, the sources said.
The operation started in December when the Steve Irwin left Fremantle to intercept the whaling fleet, which this year is targeting 935 minke whales and 50 fin whales.
WA pilots said surveillance flights continued out of Albany for some days, costing a ''truckload'' of money. Two men aboard the flights told locals they were ''looking for people who were looking for whales''.
The Rudd Government has repeatedly called for caution by both sides in the wilds of the Antarctic.
"We have reminded the masters of protest vessels of their obligations under international law to take all steps to ensure safety of life at sea, particularly in the inhospitable conditions of the Southern Ocean," Environment Minister Peter Garrett said recently.
"We are also passing the same message to the government of Japan."
FACTS ON THE ADY GIL
Top speed: 40 knots (74 kmh)
Cruising speed: 20 knots (37 km/h)
Range: Halfway around the world – 20,000 km
Cost: Estimated $1 million
Length: 24 metres
Weight: 16 tonnes
Construction: Carbon fibre foam sandwich with kevlar armour.
http://www.theage.com.au/environment/whale-watch/…
11:29 pm on January 5th, 2010 32
The continent of Australia has cattle ranches the size of some US states and are a net exporter of agricultural products just like New Zealand. This has come at a cost of the loss of habitat. This is undeniable.
Just like foxes in Australia introduced predators in New Zealand are part of habitat loss. Obviously a kiwi can't live somewhere when there are predators there killing them. Also I doubt you know more than a Maori giving a presentation about the kiwis they have there at Te Puia especially when you can look around the Internet and find postings about the impact possums have on not only kiwis but the New Zealand environment in general:
So why don't you go do something about the near extinction of kiwis instead of complaining about the Japanese hunting non-endangered whales?
8:33 am on January 9th, 2010 33
This is rediculous, they have followed the laws ensuring the whales numbers, and if they are doing this then they should be left alone.. we kill cows, chickens, turkeys, etc all damn day(india sees cows as sacred animals), koreans eat dogs (we see dogs as friends)Indians eat apes and japan eats whales.. SO WHAT!! why does every person feel they should be able to force their beliefs on others.. ive had dog, i would try whale, why? because i see animals as animals… and animals are FOOD!! as long as you respect boundaries such as ensuring the species, then hunt away.. the only break in this law is another human, because humans have deep emotional intelligence, understand death, and feel long term loss for others.. animals do not.
12:56 pm on January 9th, 2010 34
Perhaps the government should set up something like BNGOA (Bureau of Non-Governmental Organization Affairs) whose job is to watch over NGOs. In particular, NGOs with radical members or tendencies are singled out. In this case, NGOs can recruit informants within suspect NGOs as well as have undercover agents as members. Thereafter, BNGOA periodically compiles blacklists, which is not open to the public until a few years have elapsed. In special circumstances, BNGOA is given license to abduct or even kill NGO members included in the blacklist. In addition, BNGOA may raid and take over the assets of suspect NGO with a just cause.
For the most part, NGOs are subject to BNGOA's scrutiny. Any setting up of NGOs and operations is illegal, unless it is first approved by BNGOA. Violators can be subject to hefty fines, or even life imprisonment.
12:57 pm on January 9th, 2010 35
Oops … there was a mistake made in the third sentence. It should read …
In this case, BNGOA can recruit informants within suspect NGOs as well as have undercover agents as their members.
7:01 am on January 10th, 2010 36
Lets just do it once.. Do it right..
Whaling is fucked.
The Japanese claim the Western world doesnt respect their culture or traditions.
Right. I'll accept that. I'll wear that.
HOWEVER.. If the Japanese are making such a big deal out of culture and traditions. RETURN to the TRADITIONAL method of whaling. Go back to the little timber boats.. Do it all by hand.
None of this floating cannery and warehouse crap. If the Japanese people wish to be respected, then they should act respectfully.
None of this exploiting legal loop-holes to make a fortune.
Honour is something the Japanese hold highly. So. Where is the honour in lying to the world? Where is the honour in underhanded tactics to harvest more whales, year after year. It's not scientific research. We all know this, and they know we know this. Yet they continue to bitch about it claiming it's all Scientific Research.
Show me the progress made by all these years of research. Show me the proof, show me what is being researched.
The Japanese should do one of two things. Return to TRADITIONAL whaling methods in line with their cultural and traditional heritage. Or just own up to their multi-million dollar industry that is exploiting a legal loop-hole just to make money.
I personally believe it's about money. Not the tradition and culture they claim.
There is no Honour in what the Japanese are doing in this regard. As such. I have no respect for them whatsoever.
3:21 pm on January 11th, 2010 37
“introduced predators in New Zealand are part of habitat loss”
No. You are confusing different ecological concepts.
“I doubt you know more than a Maori giving a presentation about the kiwis they have there at Te Puia”
I beg to differ.
1). Te Puia is a tourist attraction and barely registers on the kiwi conservation radar.
2). If you are suggesting that this person is an authority of some sort because they are Maori, you are racist and away with the fairies. I guess, since you seem to consider yourself an authority on everything to do with the Aus and NZ environment, you are aware that Maori basically raped and destroyed as much of NZ and its wildlife as their technology allowed. Europeans then came along with more advanced technology. Maori destroyed approximately 1/3 to ½ of the original forest cover in a very short period following their arrival. This has been described as one of the most spectacular pre-industrial ecological transformations anywhere in the world. More than twice as many bird species became extinct between the first arrival of Maori and the arrival of Europeans, compared with the period since.
3). I work with leading NZ scientists working on introduced pests and their effects on NZ native species, and the effects of habitat change. I know personally the scientists leading research on kiwi and the kiwi recovery programme leader.
“especially when you can look around the Internet and find postings about the impact possums have on not only kiwis but the New Zealand environment in general”
If any more of your “facts”, and the opinions you develop from them, are based on looking around the internet, you have just thrown any credibility you may have had out the window.
No one denies possums are an ecological disaster for many species in NZ, but they are NOT the main threat to KIWI as you stated.
“So why don’t you go do something about the near extinction of kiwis”
Yes, that’s my job.
3:33 pm on January 11th, 2010 38
"animals are FOOD!!" This is one idea that is going to need to change, and fast, if humans stand any chance of reducing the impact of climate change.
"humans have deep emotional intelligence, understand death, and feel long term loss for others.. animals do not" Where is your evidence? The scientific literature is full of examples to the contrary.
And now the whalers attempt murder to try to force the objectors to quit. They clearly think they are beyond any law.
3:49 pm on January 11th, 2010 39
"“animals are FOOD!!” This is one idea that is going to need to change, and fast, if humans stand any chance of reducing the impact of climate change."
Hahahahhahahah!
But you may be right. All those methane-belching, carbon-exhaling animals are destroying the environment.
We need to get rid of them to protect our climate against Change.
Let's start with the big ones, first.
Let's start with the whales.
5:32 pm on January 11th, 2010 40
How about whale farms? Then we are not talking about the "Majestic Beasts of the Wilds" merely live stock. You'll lose none of the wild population – BOOM – solution. Or is it all really about something else? Hmmm…
8:11 pm on January 12th, 2010 41
"This point actually supports whaling because if krill is running low in the oceans then it makes sense to then out the whale population before they starve to death."
Where did you learn that krill are top-down limited by whales? It's bottom-up, and you are clearly an idiot.
10:52 pm on February 3rd, 2010 42
To GI KOREA
Have you ever been to NZ?
There's no Kiwis as roadkill
and they're protected as hell.
That's for free.
9:36 pm on February 4th, 2010 43
Who said kiwis as road kill? They are going extinct due to habitat loss. And yes I have spent plenty of time in New Zealand. Anyway all this discussion about kiwis is obscuring the real issue which none of you have been able to answer.
To review my main points which have been conveniently ignored:
- This is not an environmental issue, this is not a conservation issue, and this is not a territorial issue as the whale advocates claim.
- This is a dispute based on feelings.
- The Japanese want to commercially whale like other nations but want to do it through an international agreement.
- The tactics of the anti-whale people are only making the situation worse.
- If the anti-whale nations negotiated in good faith with the Japanese I’m willing to bet an agreement on Antarctic whaling could be reached.
- This issue is obscuring much larger real environmental issues that these same nations condemning Japan won’t deal with.
7:31 pm on July 4th, 2011 44
this is a great article, really makes the point well about why everybody is a racist hypocrite, one thing it doesnt mention is that before racist/hypocrite western influence japan only ate from the sea becuase any animal that walked on land with legs was sacred to them, i hope this help’s the whaling oposer’s that they are “racist hypocrite’s” and remember japan is not the only country whaling and they are doing according to international agreemant, they are doing NOTHING illigle, open eyed people that agree with me please add this page http://www.facebook.com/?sk=inbox&setup#!/home.php?sk=group_219332998105419&ap=1
9:37 pm on July 4th, 2011 45
If whales were so intelligent, they’d avoid the whalers. Or they might ask for help? Perhaps petition the UN or IWC? Attack the whalers in self defense (this I would have no problem with)?
Besides if those Japanese whalers happen to be good Christians, we’re in big trouble.
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” – Genesis 1:26
You don’t want to be labelled anti-Christian whaler do you?
/mmmm Whale burgers are delicious
10:19 pm on July 4th, 2011 46
Leon, you ignorant heathen…
“and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea”
A whale is not a fish.
“and over the fowl of the air”
A whale is not a fowl and it is not in the air.
“and over the cattle”
A whale is not a cow… and if you say it once was, it is the biblical equivalent of dividing by zero.
“and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
A whale doth not creepeth upon the earth.
Like the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it is obvious that whales are the forbidden fruit of the sea… of which mankind was specifically not given permission to dominate.
While your forked tongue speaks like the serpent in the Garden of Eden, hissing to kill and consume the whales while quoting scripture, it is clear that you are an agent of Satan tempting mankind with the promise of delicious whale burgers.
Begone, Devil! The power of Christ compels you!
11:02 pm on July 4th, 2011 47
OK. How about Whale Whataburgers with Jalapenos?
11:55 pm on July 4th, 2011 48
#43 GI
Each of your points have been argued / addressed. You simply don’t want to accept the answers or conclusions — much like a child who turns from their father to their mother seeking a favorable answer.
7:22 am on July 5th, 2011 49
I can’t believe how this post keeps coming back up, but anyway Lemmy you and no one else hasn’t addressed any of the points I made that:
- This is not an environmental issue, this is not a conservation issue, and this is not a territorial issue as the whale advocates claim.
- This is a dispute based on feelings.
- The Japanese want to commercially whale like other nations but want to do it through an international agreement.
- The tactics of the anti-whale people are only making the situation worse.
- If the anti-whale nations negotiated in good faith with the Japanese I’m willing to bet an agreement on Antarctic whaling could be reached.
- This issue is obscuring much larger real environmental issues that these same nations condemning Japan won’t deal with.
Lemmy please go point by point and explain how I am wrong?