I saw a photo spread on the KBS frontpage of children entering the Buddhist priesthood and I can’t help but wonder if this is child abuse or not?:
On the morning of May 1st, with eleven days to go before Buddha’s birthday, a group of 7 boys about 5-6 years old took part in a haircutting ceremony at Jogye Temple in Seoul’s Jongno-gu. The nation’s largest Buddhist order held the “Child Monk Haircutting “Initiation Rites” as part of a program for young boys entering the Buddhist priesthood.
According to the Chosun Ilbo the kids will spend a month living as monks. It doesn’t look like the kids are to happy about it either:
For those more familiar with Buddhism, at what age do these children actually become full time monks? It seems to me forcing a kid to become a monk at such a young age is not right, but then again I come from the country with Jesus Camp so what do I know?
Popularity: 7%
My StumbleUpon Page
6:04 am on May 5th, 2008 1
These kids have to endure monk camp for only one month. I suffered through five years of Catholic school followed by six years of CCD.
As long as no laws are broken, parents have the right to religiously indoctrinate their children. The more rigid parents are, the more likely those parents will get blowback 
when the kids reach adulthood and are free to make their own choices.
6:18 am on May 5th, 2008 2
“According to the Chosun Ilbo the kids will spend a month living as monks.”
Let me guess…
…no alcohol, celibacy and hours of concentrated study while wearing a uniform
Are you sure they won’t just think they entered middle school?
8:49 am on May 5th, 2008 3
There was a documentary series are few years ago that followed a monk and his four orphaned charges. One interesting thing was that he bought meat for the children, understanding that they had not made vows and needed more protein than a typical adult monk’s diet provided (I think vegetables can provide enough protein but it takes work).
I suspect it is no better or worse than Christian camps but I don’t know. I DO know that they will be followed and photographed mercilessly next Monday - because I and a million other tourists did that at Pong-eun Sa (next to Seoul’s CO-EX mall) a few years ago.
12:05 pm on May 5th, 2008 4
Indoctrination and brain washing of young minds is child abuse. If someone forced you to shave your head and chant all day long what would your feelings on the subject be? This is why all organized religions are a curse and a cancer on humanity. If you want to waste your life kowtowing to petty superstition that is your choice, these children are not allowed to choose and it is a crime to hijack their minds so the rich hypocrites in charge can keep the money flowing. Children are wired by nature to believe whatever their parents tell them, it’s a saftey mechanism, and they are defenseless against this kind of horseshit. One day we will look back on this kind of thing in the same light we view the Third Reich.
3:52 pm on May 5th, 2008 5
All religious indoctrination of children should be classified as child abuse.
“As long as no laws are broken, parents have the right to religiously indoctrinate their children.”
Why? What makes the indoctrination and brainwashing under the “label” religion ok?
Religion is evil.
1:06 am on May 6th, 2008 6
I see nothing wrong in what the parents are doing. I’ve always had concerns about orphans, but the comments from “kwandongbrian” allay those concerns.
If “Cloying_odor” and “The Goat” are really serious, I can see no other solution than to abolish the Family and have the State take over, à la Brave New World. That way, everyone can share their enlightened thoughts, which were, of course, not the result of brainwashing but of rigorous intellectual investigation.
5:21 am on May 6th, 2008 7
I don’t think religion is the third reich or evil but parents taking their kids to church on Sunday isn’t a big deal because it is a way to help teach children values at the very least.
However, making little kids become monks, go to Jesus Camp, or a madrassa where they chant the Koran all day isn’t about teaching values but indoctrination.
6:19 am on May 6th, 2008 8
Why? What makes the indoctrination and brainwashing under the “label” religion ok?
Religion is evil.
Religion is no more or less evil than other groups that foster social values, institutions like governments, schools, and families. So what if the kids have to get up early, bow 1,000 times to the Buddha, and sport shaved heads and gray robes? Meanwhile, their peers are blowing up buildings in videogames and learning human anatomy viewing online porn.
6:28 am on May 6th, 2008 9
I don’t think religion is the third reich or evil but parents taking their kids to church on Sunday isn’t a big deal because it is a way to help teach children values at the very least.
However, making little kids become monks, go to Jesus Camp, or a madrassa where they chant the Koran all day isn’t about teaching values but indoctrination.
Kids don’t need to sign hymns and recite the Lord’s Prayer to learn values. All religions are part values, part ideology. Christian children learn that a long time ago in the Middle East a being that was both human and divine was born of a virgin and was executed by the Romans so that all humans could have eternal life. One can extract values out of that belief, but one need not share that belief to value forgiveness. Teaching kids to believe the story of Jesus Christ is indoctrination, harmless indoctrination, but still indoctrination. In fact, a lot of teaching is indoctrination regardless of who does it.
6:52 am on May 6th, 2008 10
I guess it could be argued that going to church on Sunday is a form of indoctrination but I don’t think it is enough to brainwash children like what some madrassas and Jesus Camps do.
12:10 pm on May 6th, 2008 11
Just for reference, here is the question that I asked
“Why? What makes the indoctrination and brainwashing under the “label” religion ok?”
Perhaps the tag at the end was over the top…but hey…it is what I believe.
Now on to my point.
“If “Cloying_odor” and “The Goat” are really serious, I can see no other solution than to abolish the Family and have the State take over, à la Brave New World. That way, everyone can share their enlightened thoughts, which were, of course, not the result of brainwashing but of rigorous intellectual investigation.”
“o what if the kids have to get up early, bow 1,000 times to the Buddha, and sport shaved heads and gray robes? Meanwhile, their peers are blowing up buildings in videogames and learning human anatomy viewing online porn.”
Nope. Neither addressed it yet both came back with absurd (and unrelated) ‘answers’ and examples. If you don’t want to attempt to answer, then don’t. If you do, have a point to make, please try to at least make a half assed argument.
Sonagi, as for the reference of the Jesus Christ story, you say that it is harmless indoctrination. What aspect are you talking about? I don’t see teaching kids (through fear of eternal damnation) ‘values’ as being harmless.
2:06 pm on May 6th, 2008 12
Why? Because teaching one’s children the values and beliefs of one’s cultural and religious traditions is not “indoctrination and brainwashing.” It’s education.
Few dispute the fact that religious believers have been responsible for evil, as have fanatics of all stripes, including atheists. Your blanket statements that “All religious indoctrination of children should be classified as child abuse” and “Religion is evil” mark you as an ideological zealot, a fanatic, a fundamentalist.
3:01 pm on May 6th, 2008 13
You still have not addressed the issue. Who makes this differentiation? What is education and what is indoctrination? What about ‘education’ that fosters superiority of ones peer group or country?
The question is why does religion get a free pass in regards what it forces children to learn.
In response to your petty name calling at the end, I am none of those that you mentioned. In fact, I am quite the opposite. I, unlike many of religious backgrounds, do not push my beliefs on anybody - especially those lacking the mental capacity to make an informed decision for themselves.
I have been told, however, that some god thing shall strike me dead and that I am an immoral bastard destined to burn in hell etc etc…
7:13 pm on May 6th, 2008 14
“Who makes this differentiation? What is education and what is indoctrination? What about ‘education’ that fosters superiority of ones peer group or country?”
That’s the million dollar question. I see two possible answers, the Family or the State. Following The Principle of Subsidiarity, which “holds that nothing should be done by a larger and more complex organization which can be done as well by a smaller and simpler organization,” I side with the Family.
The Family has been doing a reasonably good job for millennia. When the State has tried, the result has been nightmarish.
10:02 pm on May 6th, 2008 15
I never once said that it is the state’s responsibility.
Anyways, lets call it there. One man’s education is another man’s indoctrination.
Some things just don’t have an answer.
1:04 am on May 7th, 2008 16
I’m more than happy to leave it at that. As long as the State is not called on in, I’ll defend your right to say whatever you want against my religion or anyone else’s.
“Some things just don’t have an answer,” you say. I agree. This is why any utopian project is bound to end in nightmare. I prefer our inperfect, messy world.
7:19 am on May 7th, 2008 17
Nope. Neither addressed it yet both came back with absurd (and unrelated) ‘answers’ and examples. If you don’t want to attempt to answer, then don’t. If you do, have a point to make, please try to at least make a half assed argument.
I’ll put the ball back in your court. You wrote:
“All religious indoctrination of children should be classified as child abuse.”
“ALL” is a difficult word to defend. Please show us how all people raised in particular religion have been harmed by being taught its tenets.
7:19 am on May 7th, 2008 18
7:30 am on May 7th, 2008 19
“The Family has been doing a reasonably good job for millennia. When the State has tried, the result has been nightmarish.”
There is no The Family. There are families. Generally, parents take good care of their children to the extent that finances allow, but not all parents do. There are kids who come to my school in dirty clothes and with empty stomachs because their parent spent the night at another house or is too doped up or drunk to take care of their kids. Schools have been forced into the business of character education because social and life skills aren’t being taught in some homes.
8:53 am on May 7th, 2008 20
Yup. I will give you that one for sure. ‘All’ was an improper word and was used in haste.
I, however, stand by the main premise - semantics aside.
9:00 am on May 7th, 2008 21
And what exactly was your main premise?
10:23 am on May 7th, 2008 22
Religious indoctrination should, in some cases (better?), be considered as child abuse. Just because it is a so-called mainstream religion should not give parents or churches a free pass.
I doubt that I would be considered a good parent if I educated my children in the ways of the Almighty Teapot…even though it is just as plausible as Yahweh, Odin, Zeus, Aten, or any other culturally believed deity.
7:37 pm on May 7th, 2008 23
Much better. “Some” is a big change from “all.” If you educated your children in the ways of the Almighty Teapot, you might not be considered a “good “parent,” but as long as your child showed up to school every day with no evidence of physical neglect or abuse, you wouldn’t get a visit from child protective services or be hauled in front of a judge.
10:43 pm on May 7th, 2008 24
Don´t fool yourselves because of the photo with the kid crying. I know of thousand kids that cry when they go to the hospital or to the dentist.