By Here is some news for all you USFK contractors out there:
U.S. Forces Korea officials are denying status of forces agreement visa renewals to many civilian contractors who lived in South Korea under a different visa when they were hired.
Most contractors who lived in South Korea for more than a year under a different visa — even if that was 15 years ago — are considered “ordinarily resident” in South Korea and are ineligible for SOFA status, according to USFK regulations.
The sudden scrutiny comes on the heels of an audit of USFK’s procedures and its compliance with the regulation guiding the invited contractor program.
“An ongoing Army Audit Agency audit has revealed that USFK Regulation 700-19 was not properly enforced by [USFK Chief of Staff, Acquisition Management],” USFK wrote via e-mail following a Stars and Stripes query.
As a result, some invited contractors who have worked with USFK for decades and have top secret clearances are losing their SOFA visas — and in some cases, the jobs that require that status. [Stars & Stripes]
Hopefully none of you contractors out there reading this lose your job over something that is not your fault like this.
7:13 am on October 7th, 2008 1
Simply put, the "Old Boy" network
has outlived it's legality. F-2's
anyone? I got mine!
8:39 am on October 7th, 2008 2
Perhaps they are culling the herd. It almost seems like a good excuse to thin the ranks of overpriced contractors. If truely needed, they can be replaced by a cheaper model.
11:28 am on October 7th, 2008 3
"overpriced contractors" Ha. In most cases contractors are cheaper overseas than civil service employees and have technical skills that the DACs do not. What "cheaper model" would you suggest? Filipino Prostitutes? Outsource to India? Please remember when you hear contractors down at the bar talking salary and comparing penis size it is always a little bit bigger than reality.
12:45 pm on October 7th, 2008 4
"We have met the enemy…and it is us."
The military always loves to slam contractors, but contractors supporting the military go back to the Revolution…the military couldn't go it alone then, and they damn sure cannot do it now.
I always find it ironic that the same people who are bad mouthing contractors, are usually the same ones trying to buddy up with us come ETS time. Such Hypocrites.
1:14 pm on October 7th, 2008 5
Hold on guys, I'm a DAC and I have worked with contractors in Korea. Those contractors are not cheap.
1. Tax free income
2. per diem @ 70.00 a day x 7 days
3. No Housing oversight= living in a 4 room hooch @ 4 to 500 a month
4. Same PX, Commissary and MWR as DACs
5. Add retired military to the mix = lucrative job
6. Freedom of movement, leave Korea one week, be in another country the next week.
1:17 pm on October 7th, 2008 6
Oh yeah, I forget those same Contractors, are knocking on Civil Service doors every chance they get.
2:38 pm on October 7th, 2008 7
"Oh yeah, I forget those same Contractors, are knocking on Civil Service doors every chance they get."
Well, you do get tired of having to actually be productive at a realistic level and always having to worry about being terminated due to budget changes.A GS is eternal no matter how worthless they are they cannot lose their job. So it is attractive to get into Civil Service depending on your moral standings.
3:57 pm on October 7th, 2008 8
I have to say this about we Americans…we are the backstabbingest, infighting, dog-eat-dog sonsofbitches that I have ever laid eyes on.
We ARE definitely not on the same side according to the attitudes that I have dealt with in various countries.
It really saddens me to hear the attitudes of military, government workers, etc. Do any of you have a monopoly on your sector? Hell no!
Which one of you do NOT aspire to improve your situation in Life?
Guys…it is getting to the point that "Divided we are definitely going to fall!"
5:29 pm on October 7th, 2008 9
Bones, tell me this. If everything you said in post #5 was true and it was such a lucrative job why would they always knock on civil service doors every chance they get?
1. Tax Free – Contractors don't define the IRS rules…
2. Never heard of this, can you tell me which company/contract this is? I would like to apply! Sounds like urban legend to me.
3. Housing oversight depends on the company and the contract. If a contractor can get a house for 400-500 a month why does a responsible civil servant not do the same thing instead finding a place at the top of the range?
4. Adding retired military into the mix is irrelevant. A retirement is earned on it's own merits and the benefits are paid to anyone who earned it, doesn't matter if they are contractor, civil servant or work in another industry.
6. Not sure what you mean here. If you leave korea one week you most likely will be in another country. That is generally what happens when you leave a country. Is there some reason that does not happen to civil servants when they leave korea?
We are all here to support the US govt. Everyone here gets paid for the work that they do wether they are military, civil servant or contractor. The current investigation only covered contractors through CCK. I wonder how many civil servants got through with SOFA designation when they were not "ordnarily resident in the US" when they were hired…
6:55 pm on October 7th, 2008 10
There are many contractors here for the cash.
There are many here because we have family here. I have family ties and will stay irregardless. Let the one's who have no interest in making this country better go.
Unfortunately, I have known many overpaid contractors to take advantage of the system currently in place.
9:23 pm on October 7th, 2008 11
I have too disagree with your depiction of contractors being money grubbers. Some of us are here doing our old military jobs. My personal one is in training. Some of us still give a damn about our guys, believe it or not.
It comes down to the bi-annual contracting office purge. I’ve personally seen too many KGS’s driving BMW SUV’s. Someone got their pee-pee whacked and it’s easier to blame the contractors than fix your system.
USFK Reg 700-19 clearly states – A local hire must be in Korea over one year under other than SOFA status. My personnel and myself were all hired from the States and have been SOFA from the start.
To quote the immortal Bob Dylan “You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows”.
My prediction we are out of here, hope your resume is up to date. More power to them I know I’ve certainly had enough of the ROK tripe.
Really if I had one bit of care left in me I would say let’s organize. Since we all know our companies don’t give a rip. BTW, if there’s any contractors out there that knows what I’m talking about I can be contacted at ron3elvis@gmail.com.
9:34 pm on October 7th, 2008 12
For all you contractors out there, if your a local hire then you had better look into this. If you were brought over from the states AND all your paperwork was completed before you arrived you have nothing to worry about. In the case of Mr Boeck (Stripes article) he was brought over but when he didn't work for a year he stayed in Korea and came back to the contract again. Having met him I feel for his stiuation, but it's about time they finally cleaned up a VERY corrupt program (Contracting Command)that has been running in Yongsan for Decades. He is just a victom of this corrupt system.
Bones:
Being a contractor and working daily with DACs I can say that both sides tend to stab each other in the back. From what I have seen many of them bring this over from the states or Iraq/Afganastan. It only takes one bad encounter with the other side and the bad taste sticks with you. I've been lucky as the DACs I've worked with have been easy going guys.
9:42 pm on October 7th, 2008 13
kormatt
But this is not what USACCK is doing, they are shaking us all down. Every time you contact them they give a different answer to why you lost your SOFA. Per their regulations we are legal. They won't give any name as POC. Not to be a revolutionary but do I here the word organize in our future?
10:36 pm on October 7th, 2008 14
ron3elvis, this brings up other interesting questions (not to side track the conversation) and not to be revolutionary at all. But I have often wondered…
I am a US citizen
I work for a US company
I work on a US government contract US base (in theory at least, US sovereign territory)
Why is it that I am not afforded the protections of US labor laws? In the mean time, DACs have many protections and rights. Just a thought.
10:47 pm on October 7th, 2008 15
Gents interesting discussion. When you guys are talking about corruption with the contracting what exactly are you guys referring too? For example are there people with contract jobs that are doing next to nothing but are getting paid because their buddy hired them?
11:44 pm on October 7th, 2008 16
"Why is it that I am not afforded the protections of US labor laws? In the mean time, DACs have many protections and rights. Just a thought."
This is tied into the Tax Free thing. And let's remember that it is only tax free up to a certain point and the ceiling isn't that high.
So, does anyone personnally know someone this has happened too? I have heard of one individual but it was weeks ago before this story ran in the stripes. I know of many people it should affect… mostly retires that like to take a few years off from work and hang out here then get another job that comes by. I think these are the real targets of the operation.
2:30 am on October 8th, 2008 17
GI,
A company can hire anyone they want. The Contracting Officer/QA/approving authority still has to approve. Needless to say, it behooves a company to hire the best at the best price. And it behooves the customer to report any problems to the person that has oversight on the contract. Most times, the customer does not and this encourages sloppiness. So whose at fault, the contractor that hires sub-standard workers, the QA that looks the other way or the Colonel that takes the kickback?
I don't know anything about the corruption with the current US contractors, but I would sure like this magnifying glass turned on the local contractors, especially DPW. Have you seen how shoddy the construction is and how often they need to be "upgraded" or retrofitted? The oversight at DPW is responsible, but a fat white envelope makes everything alright.
Now, having been a soldier, GS, and contractor and having & had been bad mouth by all three, it comes down to a personal decision and oversight. All 3 classes will screw-off given the opportunity, and all 3 will perform when held to standard. Currently being a contractor, it embarrasses me when I see incompetence in any class, but it's not my responsibility to report this (out of my lane). I merit my pay because I have specialized knowledge that the government is unwilling or unable to pay for in their GS's or soldiers. Should soldiers get paid more, absolutely, but so should teachers. It's systematic, so blame the system and change it. Don't be jealous of us contractors because you didn't make a better business decision or you didn't measure up to the needs of the industry. Free market baby!
In my opinion, it costs the government less to hire contractors. The government makes a contract that is bid upon and (usually) the best value (not always the cheapest) is picked. The price is relatively stable with incentives and punishments. The company that wins is responsible for Human Resources, 401k's, training, medical and other goodies that taxpayers don't have to pay for as with GS's and soldiers. In addition, we contractors generally have to stay on the leading edge and constantly (re)train ourselves, sometimes out of pocket. We know that the next day we could be job hunting, so we stay hungry **Que "Eye of the Tiger ** But that's what it takes to demand a decent salary.
The saying goes, "Government Service is where all contractors go to die."
9:20 am on October 8th, 2008 18
its outrageous why does this not apply to the DAC's as well?
many of them were hired locally and worked out deals to get LQA even though the rule says you are entitled to that if hired from the US
CCK and the Civilian Personnel Office are two of the most corrupt places on base
right behind AFFES
1:11 pm on October 8th, 2008 19
#9 that post was in response to Jafo and Cloying Odor.
What I said is a fact!!!!
I'll answer your questions anyway.
For stability and some sort of security, with contracting it here today gone tommorrow.
1. Your right, but your income is still tax free.
2. Apparently your not overseas, try LSI, Dyncor, Stanley Assoc.
3. As a DAC housing has to be a certain code, if not, you cannot rent the apartment
also has to have a fridge, washer/dryer, stove, AC and fire extinguisher. DAC's are
authorize 18000lbs HHG. How about contractors?
3a. As a DAC every landlord in the country knows your grade and LQA rate and they will max you out. Negotiation upso.
4 Salary + per diem + retirement = toksan dollar and then of course you got the exchange rate.
6. My bad….but you can get fired on Friday, fly on Tuesday to a job in Europe, Middle East etc.
When it comes to DAC my advise to you, is to do your research. Who do you think makes the laws concerning labor?
Kormatt,
I agree with your post, except the corrupt part. I think we both know its not Command policy, but individuals.
Mcnut and others
You have 90 days to find employment with the US Government after that you are ineligible for employment IAW with the SOFA and Federal employment rules/laws. If your retiring from the military DO NOT let the government move you.
Do anybody remember Son Ju Ri, Yong Ju gol etc: on the Z? a lot guys up there had businesses(Clubs, restaurants) for years and they lost income when 2ID left. Korea is not
as cheap as we want to think. All those guys that got a hook up maybe in jam now. As for
contractors read the rules guys, when you fly from the Middle east and stay in the US for 2 weeks and then fly to Korea for work……….
I think the government decided to see how much spare change we got.
9:40 am on December 25th, 2008 20
I am in the same situation, as are dozens of others.
In my case, I had a GS position, which gave the SOFA entitlement, and then went into contracting. My case is for review, as they say I made multiple trips in and out of Korea, and then took a contracting job. I did make 2 trips to Korea before accepting the job. On the second trip I applied for and was accepted as long as I completed an IT course. Which took 5 weeks inthe Philippines. I returned to Koreaand still had a C-3 Visa before the A-3 Visa that came with the GS position.
They have the whole game in their court and are doing as they please.
The problem is that there are no definitions to argue against. The term "ordinarily resident" is open to interpretation by the Contracting Office. According to the State Department and US Embassy definitions, I have always been "Not Ordinarily Resident". It seems the definitions from those offices do not apply.
I have been approved by the US Government and Korean Immigration every year until now.
My paperwork which entitles me to vehicle registration, commisary and PX priveledges, and most importantly, primary education for my child expire in 7 days, Dec 31, 2008.
There has been no word on what will be done. If I loose SOFA, my life goes completely upside down. Everything as I know it comes to a halt. The company now says they will not get involved. They state it is a matter betweenthe individual and the "folks over there". The contract states the requirement to make sure a workers papers are in order belongs to the Contractor. The "Contractor" being the company, not the individual.
I have been in Korea 14 years. I have paid for my childs tuition to DODDS primary education mostly out of my own pocket. Thats 20k a year. I have vehicles, a full household of goods, and a great job that I have spent the last decade becoming a Technical Expert in my field.
14 years. Appoved every year. Now this.
1:34 pm on December 25th, 2008 21
I see a lot of people talking up contractors on this entry. Don't let these posts fool you, they are not any better paid than DAC's are when you take into consideration TSP and retirement. I see much more turnover on the contracting side than DAC side. When I leave here the Army will make sure I have another job in the States, not true with contractors. Contractors in Korea are overpaid and underworked compared to those in the States and yet they still complain. I just hate reading these posts from contractors giving the impression that we couldn't function without them when in fact we have, and still could sustain the level of work if they were not here. If you are one of the many contractors I have worked with that understand this is a privilage to work in Korea and not a charity donation to your bank account then this post isn't for you…
8:52 pm on December 25th, 2008 22
There are just too many different functions to put everything under one classification.
Like you, I see the differences.
I am not overpaid. There are no military personnel that do my job. Salary wise, I make about what I would in the States. I do not get per diem, I do not get my housing fully covered. I do not get to have my child go to 8th grade tuition free. There is no round trip ticket to the States once a year. Cant get seen on base for medical or dental. If I did pay the taxes, I would come out far better at the end of the year than I do by living here. My wife is Korean, and it is a choice.
The only problem I have is the way the rules changed at the end of the year.
My status hasn’t changed since my first SOFA stamp, but now I may have 2 days to uproot everything.
Each time someone different takes the contract, we get reset back to initial earnings as far as garnering vacation time, and in most cases pay. That has happened on average every 2-3 years. we work for the contract, not a permanent company.
We make our choices, and have to live with it. The bad part is when the rules change midstream, with great impact to our families.
I hear you though. There are just so many different standards of who is who and who does what, it makes my head spin.
I also hate to see the posts that are just pure complaining about this or that. I would like it to turn into something constructive. That’s hard to do when contracting puts up the roadblocks and refuses to talk to you. Except to say tomorrow you will have no support.
I will try to present things as facts, and try to keep emotion out of the post. I can respect that. I love this site, and The Marmot’s Hole also.
Cheers
11:59 pm on December 25th, 2008 23
Contractor Quo, thanks for reading. I can understand the frustration with changes in the rules midstream and not giving you much time to make alternate plans. Hopefully things work out for you.
3:17 am on December 26th, 2008 24
Contractor Quo,
Since USFK is needlessly hassling you, and your company is unnecessarily leaving you in the cold, I suggest you steal and sabotage everything you can get by with. Encourage others in your position to do the same.
That is the only thing the beancounters understand. When done on a large scale, it keeps them doing what they know to be right in their hearts.
The other alternative is a violent peoples' communist revolution. Small-scale theft and sabotage to maintain the balance between management and labor is preferable.
Without giving too much away, I speak from experience. I covertly organized a situation where the beancounters made the logical and unemotional business decision to leave things in the guaranteed working condition in which they found them rather than risk the actual and unintended consequences of needless change with the hope of some possible minor future benefit.
If that doesn't work, since you have a Korean wife, you can get a Korean resident visa and legally teach English for $50/hour (or more). Technically, it can all be tax-free.
Good luck.
7:42 am on December 26th, 2008 25
In response to JAFO's advice: yeah – steal and sabotage things at your company. That'll teach 'em.
And if you ever get in a dispute with your neighbor over…say… the neighbor's kids are crossing into your yard when they are outside playing – burn the neighbor's house down – that way they won't be able to stay there any longer.
And if you have a dispute with your bank on your bank statement and they don't resolve it right away, just walk in their with a gun and hold 'em up. That'll teach 'em a good lesson and you'll probably walk away with more money than you were disputing anyway.
And if the neighbor's kids do show back up in your neighborhood – go after them with a baseball bat or machete.
Just like JAFO suggests, resorting to criminal behavior is always a great way to solve your problems.
11:10 am on December 26th, 2008 26
I am keeping everything going the way it should be. I really love the project that I am on, and especially the way we are not treated as "outsiders". The military treats us no different, and it is a great work environment. I want to keep working our mission over here. I really do believe in our cause.
Contracting is the snag. Not Korean Immigration.
And any talk of a Contractors Union sends shivers through management. Most companies are based in VA, which has a "fire at will" clause. They can terminate you for almost any reason under the sun, and its legal.
Without having this thread go to further off topic, I think the above mention of the contractor money issue is often misunderstood. What is true is that the military pays a lot for us to the job, and each company decides how much of that filters to the employee.
The individual shouldnt take flak as a money grabber. Those crazy days of the high paid employee are long over for most of us, yet the stigma lives on.
Thanks again for the replies and conversation. If anyone comes across any related threads to this, please post, link or PM me. I think we can do that when we are logged in. I have always been a reader and have so few posts under my old name, I never figured it all out.
11:22 am on December 26th, 2008 27
I love how SOME, not all, DAC's always throw crap out about contractors making too much money and not doing any work. Talk about glass houses. DAC’s certainly do get a good deal. Some, it appears, also live in glass houses. First, ALL contractors are not overpaid, lazy douche bags. They would get fired. On the other hand, it can be quite difficult to fire a DAC. I would submit that when anyone sees a civilian out doing physical labor and/or working tons of hours (while not being paid for it and no comp time), it is not a DAC. They have rules and protections against such abuse.
Most contractors are considered exempt employees. This is a fine loop-hole as the way exempt is defined by the Department of Labor (who says they have no jurisdiction in such cases – which is BS, a civilian can be charged with all sorts of crimes if committed on a US installation, why can’t we be protected as well? but I digress), most employees would not be exempt (which is meant for management). Also, an employee and an employer can make no agreements to circumvent the legal definition of such status. But alas, we are in Korea. When there is a problem, the DOL will tell a contractor to talk to his COR, who is usually a DAC, and who has a conflict of interest in this situation. He is not there to take care of the contractor but to ensure the gov gets the biggest bang for the buck.
It’s certainly a choice, everything is a choice. This is what exploited workers are always told, “If you don’t like it – quit.” Brilliant! If only life were so simple and everyone could have the career of their dreams and live in candy cane houses…
Remember this: contractors are US citizens and usually veterans. They are working for a US company on US installation for the US government and these same contractors do not deserve basic protections from wrongful termination, working in unsafe/unhealthy conditions, not being paid appropriately, etc, etc? In other words, illegal/undocumented laborers in the US and Korean National employees are afforded more protections than these scumbag American contractors.
Each of you do a little unofficial survey. When you see an US civilian working on post, you know, doing actual W-O-R-K, not attending meetings, working out, eating lunch or shopping at the PX; go up and ask him or her if they are a contractor. Go ahead, the results might be illuminating. You also might consider the importance of the job they are doing vs. is there anyone in the military (or even a DAC) that is available and that knows how to do the job.
11:45 am on December 26th, 2008 28
True….because of the "middleman" the people that are up for the newly overhauled SOFA Review cannot ask direct questions once their package is forwarded. And, as you pointed out, that middleman is on the Gov's side. You need to have "your people" call "their people".
Then, either live with their decision, or press it legally. Which is sort of difficult when the Contracting Office will not post the rules of engagement. They cant even publish their idea of "ordinarily resident", which it the term that is driving all of this.
I think the Contracting Office will be called out on this one, once the people that have been told to leave get organized.
12:05 pm on December 26th, 2008 29
I happened to have come across the position paper done up by USFK. CLick my name for the link (freaking spam filters)
http://FileHost.JustFreeSpace.Com/230cck_position…
12:05 pm on December 26th, 2008 30
Sorry, it got chopped off. one morte time. I hope this helps you, but there is no good news here.
http://FileHost.JustFreeSpace.Com/230cck_position…
12:14 pm on December 26th, 2008 31
Thanks much. Anything that helps define …well, define ANYTHING is a bonus.
Much appreciated,
CQ
12:49 pm on December 26th, 2008 32
Great info..Thanks!! I wish there was a page 7, I was feeling like a Legal Eagle there for awhile. It is EXACTLY what people are trying to get from the Contracting Office.
I was sanitized rather well, but should the name mentioned in the middle of page 9 be removed?
I wanted to mention that just in case.
12:56 pm on December 26th, 2008 33
Look at the dates on this document. 1996! Wow, they have put a lot of thought and effort into this.
2:30 pm on December 26th, 2008 34
"In response to JAFO’s advice: yeah – steal and sabotage things at your company. That’ll teach ‘em."
In a perfect world, a worker has a duty to insure the success of his company. A company has a duty to take care of its workers. A company's ability to fire insures the worker upholds their end. The possibility of theft and sabotage keeps the company holding up their end. "Theft and sabotage" doesn't have to mean loading up the car and burning the place down. It can be a productivity slowdown, a strike or a lawsuit, which causes the company to stop functioning efficiently.
"And if you ever get in a dispute with your neighbor over…say… the neighbor’s kids are crossing into your yard when they are outside playing – burn the neighbor’s house down – that way they won’t be able to stay there any longer."
Just make sure you wet down the wall of your house first. There are people and organizations who do what is right. There are others who intentionally do the opposite. Some neighbors would recognize your property rights and would guide their children correctly. Others would not. Do you burn their house down? Probably not. Do you arrange the situation so respecting your property rights is the easiest alternative? Certainly.
"Just like JAFO suggests, resorting to criminal behavior is always a great way to solve your problems."
It a terrible way to solve problems. Sometimes, however, it is the only thing the barbarians understand.
When a guy puts his heart and soul into supporting an operation for 14+ years and then is treated like this, the choices are limited to rolling over, fighting city hall or taking off the gloves.
Do you have a suggestion or are you just complaining?
4:45 pm on December 27th, 2008 35
JAFO, that is exactly the posture I have been put in. Its a terrible place to be.
I have to strap on my guns, do NOT want to use them, but they have to be loaded for bear all the same. I have more than just myself to look after.
I am glad to read a few people understand the position some of us are in.
Thanks for the comments and the help. I have a much better understanding of things. Especially with those doc's from Leon. 1996, you would think there would be a mandatory update to that.
The simple solution to all this would be to grandfather everyone in, unless there was extreme blatant abuse. Then stay on the ball and do their job.
Thanks again guys.
CQ
I will follow this up after the render a decision. It may help the next person. This wont be over for months.
10:26 pm on December 27th, 2008 36
CQ,
I don't know the specifics of your situation. There are, however, existing time-tested patterns which can be tailored to solve historically reoccurring problems. O.K. Enough theory.
As I understand it, USFK will take care of you and the situation will be as it was before. OR, they will tell you to get lost. Your company is doing nothing to help you (such as having a bigwig from the home office call a general and tell him what an important asset you are in making sure he meets his mission goals and it sure would be best for everyone if he had a personal look at your special situation).
If things don't go your way, and you see the unnecessary funking coming, you are under no obligation to maintain a moral stance in the face of their immoral actions.
Obviously, you don't want to burn bridges, but if they present you with an unjust situation where there is no hope, there may be little to loose in putting on your metaphorical Santa suit and shooting some metaphorical ex-wives while burning down their metaphorical house. At the worst, you will make them think twice before dorrking the next guy.
One idea, a time-tested pattern, would be to engineer the situation so that it is easier/cheaper/less career damaging/less publicity-generating to keep you doing your job and maintain the smoothly-working status quo than to needlessly get rid of you and throw everything into chaos.
This can be as simple as sincerely talking to the person who makes the decision. It would be even better to have a high-level golfing buddy talk to them over drinks.
You could try a direct or indirect bribe. The Korean community leaders will do anything for a price and they have the social connections to get things done. As they play golf with the highest levels of leadership, it would be a simple favor to ask. A liter of whiskey or cognac would make a nice show of sincerity when your Korean wife approached them for assistance in your special problem.
Farther up the scale, you may get assistance by making it clear to USFK and/or your company that you just want to keep your job and you want no hassle. In return for their gracious help, you won't reveal evidence of personal or institution dirty dealings. Be clear that you DON'T want to make waves, you just want to look out for your family. As long as they don't come hassling you, they will never know you exist.
(As it is one of the factors in insuring organizations uphold their end of the social contract, all contractors (and military members) should keep detailed records of unethical behavior around them. While it may be immoral to use this for selfish reasons such as unearned advancement, there is nothing incorrect about using this information to protect oneself from the selfish, arbitrary and unethical actions of others.)
As all of these organizations maintain a staff of full-time lawyers and are perfectly willing to out-spend you even when they are wrong, lawsuits no longer seem to have the power they once had to guide an organization into doing what is correct.
This problem affects a lot of good people who have been around for a long time and must have everything from good social connections to good material for blackmail. Before time runs out, everybody needs to get organized.
Good luck.
11:29 pm on December 27th, 2008 37
There are a bunch of civilian grievances waiting to be filed against USFK that are on hold until the change of administration.
They should be preparing to beef up their FOIA staff.
12:20 am on December 28th, 2008 38
sheez, what's the big deal of moving back to the States for a couple of years and then coming back to Korea. I bet most of these negative remarks at USFK are coming from middle aged men who are here for activities that don't involve work or you have been here so long that you are afraid to go back to the good old U.S.of A. I worked with contractors in the States doing the same exact work that contractors are doing here and it is the difference between night and day. Contractors here make double what they make back in the States and that is before housing plus the contractors in the States served a community of 42,000 people, here they serve maybe 15,000 to 20,000 and the contractors in the States were better at their jobs. For years contractors have used in their favor USFK's inability to hire highly qualified people because we are in Korea, in the States if a contractor doesn't like it their are 10 people behind him ready and willing to take his place who are highly qualified. Contractors have had it way to good in Korea for way to long because of the limited talent available to USFK so suck it up and drive on contractors or move into a DAC job where you are a little safer.
5:32 am on December 28th, 2008 39
Comment #38
You said it all, And thats the way it is, Your Comment is as true as the sky is blue. I think that all contracts should be withdrawn; heck there still waiting for a renewal but they will probably get a 1 or 2 month extention like they have been for the last 5 to 6 months hoping for the 5 year renewal that will lock them in for the next few years because like you said most of them are scared to return to the states because of the competition.
8:30 am on December 28th, 2008 40
I would love if they rolled our positions over to DAC. Then I would get the support I need.
This isn't on an individuals level. Its the company that is awarded the contract. And most are up each year for renewel. We do not make double of our Stateside counterparts. Even while the companies are getting the full per diem for their people, most employees see only 55% of that. Some less, some more.
By full support, I mean housing and school age education, the ability to get medical and dental on base, and legal services. I am not looking for a bigger paycheck, just support. The same as DAC, DoDDS teachers, etc.
If I did receive those things, then yes, my income would be double of the Stateside equivalent.
If you are lucky suitable housing can be had for around 2k a month. The teachers DAC's that live around the corner pay 3-4.5 million won a month. I shouldn't have to live in a 2 room hootch, but I don't need a 3 acre estate either. I live in a house that is about the same as I would in the States.
Since we have to rent, and have to have our kids in school. Its not money in our pockets. Yet because it is not reimbursed as in a DAC job, my expenses are at least 40k a year. Doesn't leave much to "fatten up my bank account".
I love the States. But I would prefer not to uproot my child. This kid made honor roll, and at the 8th grade level, stability is what they need.
Again, it is my choice to want to stay here.
The middle aged man part.
It just so happens that most of the people that are college degreed, or technical experts from years of experience, are middle aged. Because of this, we have families and a life.
Young fresh faces are great for injecting new ideas, but if the dark stuff hits the fan, I would think you would want the cool headed middle aged man, who has seen it all before, to call the shots.
whoops…sorry, I started to get defensive.
I don't want this to become one of those grip and complain threads. I hate those, and I am above that.
I respect my job and our efforts over here.
Support is all I am asking for, nothing more.
Thanks to each of you for the comments.
8:45 am on December 28th, 2008 41
I can respect a man who sacrifices for his children as I have had to do for mine. I hope everything works out for you Contractor Quo because good fathers are a rare breed these days. It is rediculous to see some of the posts on this entry talking about doing any harm to their units, it is pathetic to even think that way. You take what life deals you and you adjust, you don't put units readiness in harms way because you are not getting what you want. We are in Korea for a reason and not one person, DAC Contractor or soldier, is greater than the overall mission, guys who would even think of sabotauging their units for their own benifit or spite need to get out…
9:17 am on December 28th, 2008 42
41,
I think the tactic is nothing new…look at all the recurrent KM/IT problems in Korea and the number of personnel required to "fix" and "maintain" the systems.
11:34 am on December 28th, 2008 43
I would rather be a DAC,
"not one person, DAC Contractor or soldier, is greater than the overall mission, guys who would even think of sabotauging their units for their own benifit or spite need to get out…"
I wish that were true. I really, really, really do. There are some problems with that thinking, however.
First, if you meekly "take what life deals you and you adjust," you will suddenly find yourself stepped upon by the vast majority of predators and slackers who do not. Government agencies, the military and USFK are full of these types. It is only the threat of not accomplishing the overall mission that keeps them from becoming completely selfish or worthless.
Second, does it help the mission to arbitrarily get rid of a guy with 14 years of experience who is stable and established or is it better to use tax dollars to import a newbie that has no idea about Korea or the mission. One can well argue that the mission is being sabotaged by those running the contractor purge and their enablers.
I'm not advocating blowing the place up and selling the secrets to North Korea. I'm talking about small acts of civil (or vocational) disobedience to assist the predators and the slackers in making the right decision.
A short-term loss for a long-term gain in mission readiness.
11:48 am on December 28th, 2008 44
I wasnt clear when I wrote my first piece. I only have 10 years on my current project. Before that I was a Systems Engineer at another unit. Before that I had the GS position. Which gave me the SOFA status, and resets the clock. Before that I made a trip to Korea, left for almost 2 weeks, came back, and was offered the GS if I can get another course knocked out. So I left again for 5 weeks, came back, and started the GS slot. Now they are trying to term me as "ordinarily resident" in Korea 14 years ago, and that is was started my part of this thread.
But 10 years still makes my point.
12:04 pm on December 28th, 2008 45
I was notified as to the status of my package, which was sent for review by the lawyer types, hasn't been processed as of yet.
The person, apparently the only person that makes such decisions, is on leave. They wont say when things will resume, and they haven't extended my status.
The countdown continues. 2 days.
Interesting…
12:57 pm on December 28th, 2008 46
#44, Most GS employees here have been here before or have never left. I have had to adjust many times and have always come out on top meaning I have enjoyed all my PCS moves to the States, Europe and Korea. I have had a supervisor I just couldn't get along with so I PCS'd and got a pramotion under PPP, just luck but hey…adjusting made me more money in this situation. I went to the States for less than 2 years and came back to Korea and got another pramotion. There is no excuse for doing any harm to a unit, USFK doesn't owe you anything, they have given you a pay check all these years, so… do you expect more than a pay check now? Do you expect some type of loyalty because you have been doing your job and getting paid every 2 weeks? Give me a break, you are just another number like the rest of us. It is pathetic that a contractor thinks he is owed something for just showing up at work everyday. USFK should be at the highest readiness possible, they don't need or want a contractor who will screw up a unit because he thinks he is owed more than a paycheck.
1:25 pm on December 28th, 2008 47
I am not owed a thing. But to include it when you start a job, and then have those things taken away one at a time as the contract changes hands isn't right.
The tuition for my child was pulled out, at the governments direction, during mid contract. It was written in there for the life of the contract. Most people would assume that meant…for the life of the contract.
I don't want anything special at all, but if my family is on my orders, and I am issued Chem/Bio gear, must participate in exercises, have to be enrolled in NEO and such, then I would thing that federally mandated primary education for your children under 18 should be provided. Especially if there is room already.
I agree, we are all just numbers, and hindsight is always 20/20.
Cheers
1:27 pm on December 28th, 2008 48
No one is discussing any sort of sabotage. I only see one person on here who has advocated such a thing. Let's not let that get us off the central point.
Most of us as veterans understand the importance of what we do and would never be able to do such a thing. The problem here is that this crap being dealt to contactors isn't over mission readiness. If it were about mission readiness we would want the most capable people, with the most experience and who actually want to be here/have a vested interest in the country (i.e. Korean family members)
This is about other issues. This problem should not exist at all and yet it has snowballed into a turd of gigantic proportions.
For those with screw it, it's no big deal, etc. try a little empathy or compassion.
Sure employers owe you nothing if they paid you every 2 weeks. But take that to it's ultimate conclusion. Consider if YOU thought you were being done an injustice, if you and your family were being screwed, if you might have to face relocating to the States in these uncertain economic times. All this after years of faithful service (in and out of uniform) for a reason which no one can (or is willing to) explain. Basically through no fault of you own. Don't tell us you would not be pissed and/or kicking and screaming. Don't even try it.
6:29 pm on December 28th, 2008 49
[...] of SOFA Status« Reply #76 Today at 6:45am » One of the blogs is talking about this.http://rokdrop.com/2008/10/07/usfk-contr….r-visa-changes/ Link to Post – Back to Top Logged« Page 6 of 6 Jump to page 0 && [...]
6:44 pm on December 28th, 2008 50
Its hard to feel bad for a lot of contractors. From what I can tell, they wont lift a finger to do anything but gripe. CCK is picking them off one by one, and none of them will lift a finger to fix the problem.
8:01 pm on December 28th, 2008 51
Like I said before, contractors, GS and green suitors are just a number to the overall mission we have here in Korea. If anyone believes they are more than a number or are irreplaceable you are wrong. The Government will always continue to function no matter who leaves. Some people just seem to develop, over time, a sense of ownership in their position but the truth is that when someone leaves the unit continues to function and people are replaced. Don't get me wrong, I have worked with and had contractors working for me that are great people and know their jobs but I have never found anyone who can not be replaced including myself. I think rotation of people is a good thing, brings a different perspective into the system.
For all you contractors who are caught up in this situation, I feel for you. It's not easy to pick up and leave but it isn't impossible. You can always come back after you have met the requirements. All contractors know, or should know, that they are getting into an unstable work environment and are last, or not even in, the food chain when it comes to decision making, that is what you sign up for. I have put in a lot of time in DoD and have seen many contract companies so believe me when I say the people working for USFK have it much better than people in the States and get all they are owed every two weeks via a pay check, the Government doesn't owe you or me anything else.
2:34 am on December 29th, 2008 52
We have met the mythical root of evil in the faceless, soulless bureaucracy and his name is I Would Rather Be A DAC.
Congratulations, for being a part of what makes life so unstable, irritating, frustrating and needlessly difficult.
Thanks for enthusiastically being a willing cog in the run-amok machinery of government and industry that grinds up sincere hard-workers brimming with hope and duty; and spits out broken shells of men filled with hate, distrust and a short-term get-what-I-can-while-the-getting-is-good attitudes.
When the slow-moving line at the DMV is endless, when TSA thugs strip-search a grandmother, when 25 road workers are leaning on their shovels watching one guy poke around in a hole, when the post office loses a package and doesn't care to find it, when a cop is more worried about flexing his authority than protecting and serving, the blame falls on YOU and the army of those like you who consider a sense of long-term stable professionalism and caring job ownership to be a bad thing.
Those of you who consider people to be expendable numbers, thrown away at a whim to be replaced with another untrained, inexperienced and uncaring warm body doing a half-job while spending an equal effort trying desperately to avoid the arbitrary chopping block, are the problem and not the solution to institutional efficiency and societal accomplishment.
So, thanks. Thanks for nothing.
Would "Die in a fire" be appropriate here?
8:09 am on December 29th, 2008 53
Did you think you were something more than a number to the Government #52, even on this post you are just a number. This is the life you choose #52, if you want to be more, go work somewhere else…
8:22 am on December 29th, 2008 54
I made the decision under a different set of rules. This current situation was not my choice. I currently prefer to try to make the changes, and not roll over.
And I am not just looking out for myself, I have been helping others in similar situations.
This thread has been valuable in many ways. I understand more of the rules they are going by (Thanks Leon), which is all I asked for. Just tell me the rules, and don't change them during the game without notice.
I also see that there is a bias that must be worked on. And I have learned, in this instance as it pertains to the government, even having everything in writing is no guarantee.
And…some people have their stance set, and arent open to discussion on the matter.
Status……1 day left!!!
8:58 am on December 29th, 2008 55
If you have to go back to the States I hope you can come back to your position once you have met the requirement Contractor Quo, I just am a realist, I know that pisses some people off but I do have compasion and have kids myself and understand that this must be a tough position you are in. Good luck with whatever happens and I hope at a minimum you can at least come back to your job here once you have met the requirement.
12:27 pm on December 29th, 2008 56
"…I hope you can come back to your position once you have met the requirement …"
I hope to make something clear and maybe this is where some of the misunderstanding lies. If a contractor was ever here under any other status than A-3 (SOFA), whether legal or not, basically CCK is saying you can NEVER, NEVER, EVER work here and you can NEVER come back (I assume this is because time travel is impossible so past errors cannot be rectified). Period. This means even if you go back and meet the mythical "resident status" in a given state, you are forever ineligible for employment in USFK.
I have already seen this happen. An individual who got out of the army (officer) and taught English for a while (100% bonafide legal, proper degree, E-3 visa, the whole nine yards). On top of that he was in the army reserves here! Later he gets a contractor job and this comes up. He feels the company is not supporting him (likely correct) so switches jobs and is led to believe he need only go to the states and get hired while establishing his “residence”. He does it all…
Flash forward two months as he re-enters Korean for a “new start.” He is told to get lost AND exactly as I explained he once held the “wrong” visa. Long story short, he is told his company cannot even hold the job for him. That my friend is an example of the idiocy occurring here.
Regarding CCK’s exploratory probes, so far the record is 1978. That’s right, 20 years.
So conclusions to be drawn, be careful what documentation you give to CCK. Volunteer nothing, fight before you give anything. You are not dealing with an honest broker here. You are not signing any sworn statements and CCK has no prosecution related powers over you. They can only do one of two things: deny you or allow you.
It comes down to this, if you already gave them copies of your passport and/or copies from the Korean immigration office and you have any “bad” things on there, you are screwed with no recourse. “Bad” includes but is not limited to; the old 60 month multi-entry visa (90 day) with repeated in’s and outs (visa runs) or ANY other legal employment visa such as an E-3. If you have these, you are better off fighting than handing over the instrument of you demise willingly.
I would like to clue you all in on some of the tricks but it would cause a few individuals to stand out like sore thumbs. I know they are reading this, assuming the have the intellectual capacity to actually comprehend the written word, of which I have my doubts. So to CCK, a big F** YOU! Hope you can understand that!
Cheers
1:01 pm on December 29th, 2008 57
Yes. Everyone that has been "upfront and honest" with them has been shot down if there is anything that even remotely approaches a grey area. There has been no rational put into the decision making process, which is what the 700-919 and SOFA documents all state should occur. The framers of those documents knew that there are always circumstances that can happen when overseas.
That is exactly the phrase they use. "if you are upfront and honest, you shouldn't have any problem."
The ones that have extreme violations but don't give up anything, pass.
In this case, as many have learned, you can incriminate yourself. Hard.
It still comes down to:
Even if you have done NOTHING illegal or wrong, they are more apt to put the spin on it and deny you status.
1:06 pm on December 29th, 2008 58
Listen…the requirement is for you to be physically living in the US for 12 months. You can't fake or get around that…your passport will do you in. I've heard and seen contractors try this trick and now its catching up to them. Leon Laporte if the person you mentioned in paragraph 2 did this he committed fraud.
1:23 pm on December 29th, 2008 59
I would rather be a DAC,
"Did you think you were something more than a number to the Government #52, even on this post you are just a number. This is the life you choose #52, if you want to be more, go work somewhere else…"
Of course I know that. I just didn't know why it had to be that way. Now I do. There are spineless "men" who accept and encourage the system instead of fighting it openly or subtly every chance they have.
If you were a prisoner, you would begged to get punked and you would spout its virtues to those around you.
1:30 pm on December 29th, 2008 60
#58. CCK told him to do it. The comapny and CCK "talked" and then everything changed, again. He did nothing wrong and was honest throughout the process. That is why he is living and working in the states, apparently never to return. Let's not throw fraud charges around, especially where CCK is involved.
"…the requirement is for you to be physically living in the US for 12 months…"
Who says? Every state has differing requirements concerning both time and other factors in determining residence. Which state are we going by? Is it CCK's policy, this 12 months? Where is that posted and who approved it? What documentation is required to prove it? What if you work in another country? USFK should not be concerned where you were, as long as you were not here, right?
This still doesn't change the fact that if you EVER had another LEGAL work visa (other than A-3) in Korea you can do nothing to rectify it. Nothing. Not 12 months or 14 or 99. Nothing.
1:41 pm on December 29th, 2008 61
#59 That is all you have, lame stuff…
1:51 pm on December 29th, 2008 62
Bones…where is that requirement noted please?
I am trying to understand all I can.
2:18 pm on December 29th, 2008 63
As usual people complaining are not telling the whole story. They pick and choose what they want to share and tell half truths. The never give all the information just enough information to make them look like a victim.
4:02 pm on December 29th, 2008 64
Who is doing the complaining?
I know that I gave all my information. And I know I am 100% right in my situation.
And my efforts will prove it so.
It is possible incorrect judgements are made by misinterpreted information. And I think that is what is going on in my situation.
That is all…
2:56 am on December 30th, 2008 65
As usual USFK is not telling the whole story, therefore victimizing many…
1:47 pm on December 30th, 2008 66
Gentlemen I'm trying to be negative here, just trying to get you to understand some facts.
Have any of you read the SOFA agreement? How about the Joint Travel Regulations (JTR)
Who says? Every state has differing requirements concerning both time and other factors in determining residence. Which state are we going by? Is it CCK’s policy, this 12 months? Where is that posted and who approved it? What documentation is required to prove it? What if you work in another country? USFK should not be concerned where you were, as long as you were not here, right?
It doesn't matter what state your in as long as it in the US. If you go from one country to another and only stayed in the states for a week or so, you can be labeled as Ordinarily Resident.
I have already seen this happen. An individual who got out of the army (officer) and taught English for a while (100% bonafide legal, proper degree, E-3 visa, the whole nine yards). On top of that he was in the army reserves here! Later he gets a contractor job and this comes up. He feels the company is not supporting him (likely correct) so switches jobs and is led to believe he need only go to the states and get hired while establishing his “residence”. He does it all…
That's visa fraud.
@45 The post is still confusing, but i'll take a crack at it. When you were in Korea 14 years ago, How long did it take for you to get a job with anything affiliated with US government.
5:09 pm on December 30th, 2008 67
I would venture to say that the requirement to enforcement this rule is coming from a much higher source than CCK. Most rules such as these are trickled down from the top but are slow to be implemented until the drop dead date arrives. I remember when the 5 year rule was implemented for DAC employees, many cried foul even though it was a rule that had been on the books for years but was never initiated until someone discovered they were missing out on job opportunities. That rule not only had a negative effect but had a positive effect depending on what side of the fence you were sitting one so… maybe the same applies here. I have known many contractors who have been here for years on end which equals less jobs for other people seeking employment so, maybe this is a way to flush the system and get new faces in here. This is not a negative remark just a possibility of what they are thinking at the top.
11:24 pm on December 30th, 2008 68
Is there a way to edit posts? I thought there was a login before, but I may have been thinking of something else.
WAY too much coffee today,
Happy New Year!!!!
12:57 am on December 31st, 2008 69
No there isn't any way to edit posts and there is no log in. Commenting here is open to anyone. Yes Happy New Year as well.
6:47 am on December 31st, 2008 70
None of this has anything to do with a colonel in charge of contracting getting caught with a few hundred thousand dollars in cash last year, does it?
4:17 pm on December 31st, 2008 71
Keep in mind that the 5 year rule is a State Department rule not a military rule, also its not a law. Read, read and read again so that you understand and comprehend how that goes.
5:20 pm on December 31st, 2008 72
That's fraud!
Just thought I'd throw that out there. Seems to be a popular term/concept….
7:26 pm on December 31st, 2008 73
I don't care if it is a rule or law, it forced DAC employees to rotate out of Korea so others could get jobs here. I am not a hater of contractors but rather a hater of people who become complacent. There are far to many Amercans in Korea who develope what I like to call "getafalsesenseofwhoIamandactuallygetagirltolikeme illness". It keeps people in Korea grounded when they have to rotate back to the U.S. every so often.
7:41 pm on December 31st, 2008 74
You may be right "I would rather be a DAC" but DAC employees have five years to get ready for that move to their next post or the US. Contractors like "Contractor Quo" are finding out at the last minute.
7:53 pm on December 31st, 2008 75
Agree DAC, I feel for the guy. With DAC's they still get around the 5 year rule frequently but it took away the ability for people to stay 20 or 25 years in a row, there may be a few that still get by with it but not many. I read on this post somewhere about Grandfathering in those that were here already, I think that is what they should do with this situation but I believe this directive came from someone other than CCK, they just got tasked with implementing it.
8:45 pm on December 31st, 2008 76
"I am not a hater of contractors but rather a hater of people who become complacent."
No. You are just a hater.
Why would you begrudge a guy with a Korean wife, half-Korean kids and years of experience with the job, country and culture, the ability to continue his career instead of being forced to dump his possessions and relocate in unsure economic times?
Complacency, corruption and poor job performance are certainly issues in the contracting community. They are best dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than sudden and arbitrary selective enforcement of some ancient rule which penalizes good employees with years of dedication to the mission.
You sound like an angry and lonely old man, envious of those with stability and happiness in their careers and relationships; trying desperately to force your definition of being "grounded" on those who have found their place in the world and have had more success in life than what you feel you are entitled to.
12:46 am on January 1st, 2009 77
Your right Jafo, if only I could be cool like you:) I'm sure your not one of those with the getafalsesenseofwhoIamandactuallygetagirltolikeme illnes, now, are you?
I guess the guy who was being forced out of Korea is gone now, he may look back on this day and say it was the best thing that happened to him or he may find a way back and turn out as cool as JAFO
….
Don't take it to seriously there JAFO, I'm just messin with you…
12:47 am on January 1st, 2009 78
Oh, I forgot to mention I am in my mid 30's, pretty old uh……..
1:43 am on January 1st, 2009 79
Ah. My mistake. Allow me to rephrase.
You sound like an angry and lonely YOUNG man, envious of those with stability and happiness in their careers and relationships; trying desperately to force your definition of being “grounded” on those who have found their place in the world and have had more success in life than what you feel you are entitled to.
On one thing, you are right, though. There are some people with that getafalsesenseofwhoIamandactuallygetagirltolikeme illnes.
Sadly, this current You Are Just A Number treatment of contractors is not identifying and selectively targeting the idiots.
It is most affecting established family guys with a large investment of time and effort in building a stable life for their wives and children. This is especially hurtful if they have a Korean family who is now forced, on short notice, to "rotate back to the U.S." to get "grounded".
I'm waiting for someone to explain how this benefits USFK, the military, America, its citizens, accomplishment of the mission, etc.
4:13 am on January 1st, 2009 80
"I would rather be a DAC" mayby you would understand "JAFO" position if you looked at what you wrote. You said you
“getafalsesenseofwhoIamandactuallygetagirltolikeme illnes," But if you look at your own words. It breaks down to " get girls to like me" Well Mr Contractor Quo, has already stated that he he live in Korea as a Contractor (or similar job) for 14 years and is married with children. I really doubt that he gives a hoot about random "girls" liking him. I think that you are projecting your views. I hope that you have the courage to think that all people are not the same as you. The "illness" that you are familar with is something that you know well, but other normal, and married people are not.
I wish you well.
8:06 am on January 1st, 2009 81
Oh yea, no married guys in Korea fool around. Don't act like you don't get it, I would venture to say 9 out of 10 dudes in Korea are here for the Women rather they are married or not. When you walk the streets of any base in Korea, why do you think there are so many philipinos on base now. Just in case you play stupid on this one let me tell you why… it is because they are the bar girls now. It's cool, Women are a good reason to be anywhere but you don't have to play dumb to make friends DAC and JAFO.
9:23 am on January 1st, 2009 82
I am still here. There is a rule that states you have 30 days past the end date. Hopefully, there will be a resolution to all this. I lost a week of communication due to the time variable between here and the states, and of course the holidays made things near impossible, as it seems the people I need to talk to have been on leave.
I will continue to post.
I heard someone is going to spin up a website concerning this topic. And it will have all the references, links to documents, and the like.
I have found a few places discussing this topic, but there needs to be more in depth information sharing, the tools are incrediably difficult to find. But they are out there.
Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. If you can, please link to this in your signature block on other forums.
The word must get out, and its not out as much as I thought.
2:42 pm on January 1st, 2009 83
They tell you that you have 30 days after your visa expires, but go and try to leave Korea and see what happens to you. I am being looked at next week. If I find out I have to leave I will resign immediately as I have no wife or children to tie me down. What I don't like is they refuse to tell you how they make their decision.
4:23 pm on January 1st, 2009 84
Villian, true on that. I brought the reg down with me to immigration, and they stamped me for the 30 days. They also can not figure out what the problem is. They say I am totally legit. Same with another person I know. If the whole reason this is happening is to get people in line with the Korean Law, and the Korean Immigration says its ok, whats going on?
As the tour length is going to 3 years, there will be an enourmous jump in Command Sponsored slots for their families. Perhaps this is to make more positions available to dependents.
4:23 pm on January 1st, 2009 85
Remember one of the most imporatnt things I posted and take it to heart. CCK are not honest brokers. Think about this and use it to your advantage.
4:33 pm on January 1st, 2009 86
Yeah, I heard that rumor a long time ago about getting more jobs for dependents. I can tell you that a lot of contract jobs female dependents can't do like the last one I had where you had to lift 100 lb. batteries. I think we are not being told the whole story.
5:03 pm on January 1st, 2009 87
I cant figure any of it out……..
The US Embassy said they do not get involved with military SOFA matters, and suggested I go to Korean Immigration. Korean Immigrations says I am good to go.
CCK are the only people denying it.
Point being, I could be stuck here, and at what point would the Embassy step in?
10:03 pm on January 1st, 2009 88
This is for DAC #38
"sheez, what’s the big deal of moving back to the States for a couple of years and then coming back to Korea. I bet most of these negative remarks at USFK are coming from middle aged men who are here for activities that don’t involve work or you have been here so long that you are afraid to go back to the good old U.S.of A. I worked with contractors in the States doing the same exact work that contractors are doing here and it is the difference between night and day. Contractors here make double what they make back in the States and that is before housing plus the contractors in the States served a community of 42,000 people, here they serve maybe 15,000 to 20,000 and the contractors in the States were better at their jobs. For years contractors have used in their favor USFK’s inability to hire
"I would rather be a DAC
highly qualified people because we are in Korea, in the States if a contractor doesn’t like it their are 10 people behind him ready and willing to take his place who are highly qualified. Contractors have had it way to good in Korea for way to long because of the limited talent available to USFK so suck it up and drive on contractors or move into a DAC job where you are a little safer."
You're a clueless asshat! Get all the facts before you open your CUMDUMPSTER pie hole!
11:55 pm on January 1st, 2009 89
So which facts are you referring to? Are you telling me in Korea there is a great pool of talent to fill these positions? I think my facts are a lot straighter than the turds making posts on this thread. The contractors that I worked with in the States were a lot smarter than the ones I work with now. It doesn't take a genius to figure out there is less to choose from in a foreign country when the requirement is to hire American citizens. I mean, the only requirement I have seen is that the person is breathing in some cases. Come on, the only people getting pissed at my comments are the ones who know I speak the truth. It is easy to tell when you strike a nerve by the remarks left by some of you brainiacs.
1:33 am on January 2nd, 2009 90
I would rather be a DAC,
Well, now. You are changing your story a bit.
When your point was that contractors should be treated like numbers, thrown away at a whim and random guys looking for help in a difficult situation deserved to be ridiculed, I was very much against you.
When your point is that there are worthless warm-body contractors who got their position via the Good Ol' Boy Network (or white envelopes) instead of any hint of qualifications (or desire to get any) while one guy with actual knowledge and skill is pretty much on 24 hour call to solve real problems, then I have a harder time disagreeing with you.
Your gleeful desire to fire random contractors doesn't seem to be much of a solution, though. Please elaborate on how this current purge will solve the problems you have pointed out.
2:29 am on January 2nd, 2009 91
Go back and look at my comments and you will see I didn't ridicule any one individual. The guy that has to leave that has a wife and kids, I said I felt sorry for because I have a wife and kids myself and would hate to be in his situation but if I were I would deal with it. You and a couple others were getting pissed because I hit a nerve when I generalized my comments to be meant for those that "if the shoe fits…" and judging by some of the remarks I have seen, I can pick out at least 3 that the shoe was tailor made for, and one looks to be a DAC.
So that there is no confusion, I feel bad for the guy that is posting in this thread with kids and a wife, he seems like a genuine dude. However, I wouldn't be against a mandatory rule that no contractor could poses a SOFA visa for more than 5 years concurrently before a one or two year stay in the States was required.
You know, people are so busy assuming CCK is responsible for this being implemented and I would bet this was a directive to CCK, they are probably just the messenger. I wonder if anyone affected by this has written their congressman.
1:47 pm on January 2nd, 2009 92
Thanks everyone, I am working it.
A 5 year plan on contractors maybe be difficult to institute. In many cases there are more people employed by the company overseas than there are in the states. Some only have admin people in the states, with the entire work force overseas. If they rotated these people out, they wouldnt be able to work in their job field for the year.
The local job pool we draw from has become smaller and smaller each year. In general, yes, it was a better job pool, because many already have their clearances, have technical schools along with college, understand the lifestyle, and have stabalized their life. In general. Thats a big plus.
I have written my Congressman, and others.
12:46 pm on January 3rd, 2009 93
Kind of reminds me of voter/term-limit discussion. Anyway the DAC's have a 5 year rule, it works great. Usually the folks who do a good job and everyone would like to stay are forced to leave and the turd lickers that have been here 10,15 or 20 years are allowed to stay. I guess those rules don't stick to some as well as others.
1:51 pm on January 3rd, 2009 94
Just about everyone, contractor or DAC, who goes over 5 years becomes a turd licker. We are not rocket scientists, anyone is replaceable in the Government system.
3:12 pm on January 3rd, 2009 95
If "I would rather be a DAC" had it his way, everybody who was in Korea long enough to earn seniority would be pushed out and the only people left would be the permanent Korean staff.
3:53 pm on January 3rd, 2009 96
I have rotated in and out of Europe, Korea and the States in my 10 years as a DAC. Everyone that I supervise are older than me so, if anything, staying in Korea makes DAC employees lazy, occuping the same position as they become "turd lickers". I have more seniority than any other DAC in my workplace and I just got here, most of them have been here at least 4-5 years and a couple much longer than that. It is quite pathetic to see people who have been DAC's for 20-25 years and have never moved above the grade of GS-12 and have occupied the same position for ages. I would take a young go getter any day over a guy who sits in the same position with no ambition to move on and up.
4:35 pm on January 3rd, 2009 97
Not everyone wants to (or should be) a supervisor. The "move up or out" policy has failed repeatedly for the army, why should it be different elsewhere. You end up losing good people and end up with some supervisors who shouldn't be in that position. No system is perfect. I do not think for a moment that a person staying in a job longer than 5 years automatically makes them a turd licker…
5:03 pm on January 3rd, 2009 98
I don't have good and bad people Loen. What I do have is people who think that being in one position for years equals seniority. I have denied a couple of extensions in Europe and Korea and get the same "deer in the headlights" look from all of them. No matter who I have sitting in a position, they are capable of doing the job. It is the intangibles that I am looking for from an employee. People who occupy a position for years on end think that entitles them to complain more or show up to work late or leave early. I like it when a new employee comes to work, they haven't developed any bad habits that older employees have developed and they do the job as well if not better than the person they replaced because they have something to prove. I could replace every employee I have and still function at the same level I am now without all the complaining the people with "Seniority" bring to an organization.
7:04 pm on January 3rd, 2009 99
Well, DAC. It sounds like you have a problem, and perhaps there is a systemic problem as well. The DAC world and contractor worlds are very different. You might try focusing on the problems in your world, rather than contractors being screwed over, or you might consider changing over to become a contractor yourself and letting those folks benefit from your leadership and insight.
I just hope that “deer in the headlights” look means what YOU think it means. Infallibility is a gift that should not be wasted.
7:55 pm on January 3rd, 2009 100
Leon, I have had good people work for me and with me in my years in DoD and this tour is no different. Just because I don't approve an extention doesn't mean someone doesn't know their job or isn't good at their job. I have never had a position that was vacated where the incoming individual was unable to perform up to standards. The four services are mobile, even top brass move to new positions. I said it in a statement above and I will say it again, we don't need contractors in Korea except for those positions where an MOS or job series is not available for those positions. An example where we need contractors is helicoptor repair, an example of where we don't need contractors is I.T.. In the States I believe contracting in all areas is acceptible, and in some cases, more beneficial to the Government. I make a pretty good living and understand the benefits of Government Service, I wouldn't become contractor unless I already had a retirement to fall back on.
9:12 pm on January 3rd, 2009 101
Just out of curiosity, why do you say no contractors are needed in IT. That's a pretty broad statement. IT is a very diverse field.
10:08 pm on January 3rd, 2009 102
I'd say more contractors are needed in IT because all the proprietary and non-Microsoft sh!t keeps breaking down perpetually, perhaps by design to require a large support structure?
10:16 pm on January 3rd, 2009 103
I think contracting overseas should be for those specialty areas that DAC's or Soldiers can't fill. I was a little to quick to type my response above and should have said contractors should not be in general IT repair fields where there is a qualified DAC series available. There are certain pieces of hardware and software that are beyond the scope of DAC's I am sure, so in that case, a contractor should be hired from the company that supplied the equipment to run it. As IT becomes less of an unknown to the command I suspect contractors will be replaced by DAC's in everyday IT jobs. Again, I am not in a technical field so I am shooting from the hip on this one…
10:33 pm on January 3rd, 2009 104
Mark, are you saying local contractors know this proprietary software and DAC's don't? Where are these local contractors learning about this proprietary software that DAC's couldn't?
11:18 pm on January 3rd, 2009 105
No, I'm just saying that from the outside, it appears there aren't enough DACs/DoDCs to keep the whole ungodly matrix running, so the contractors are necessary augmentation, especially with all the friggin' different enclaves and idiosyncrasies involved between the different services on pen.
Sure, the Army probably likes a DAC solution, but what about the Joint world? From my experience, the Air Force especially prefers contracting, so when you get Zoomies in Joint billets having something to do with IT, then more contracts get generated and thus the matrix evolves so that it is reliant on DACs and contractors equally.
10:58 am on January 4th, 2009 106
O.K. I heard something straight from the horse's mouth on this whole thing. It wasn't a direct explanation but it sure got me thinking in a certain direction. Before I open my mouth on my interpretation, let me ask a question or two to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree.
Does anybody have an explanation as to why the home offices don't seem to be fighting for their employees even though needless loss of skilled workers might have some effect on their ability to fulfill their contractual obligations?
4:59 pm on January 4th, 2009 107
Most companies are too scared to do anything because they think it will jeopardize their lucrative contracts is all. They're a bunch of weenies.
4:00 am on January 5th, 2009 108
Is a local hire GS, even after 3, 6, or 9 months in country on a tourist visa before accepting the job entitled to SOFA? I am not concerned with the LQA or COLA. Just SOFA. There is a reference on rao-osan.com to the Staff Judge Advocate using the definition of 1 year and a day to determine ordinary residency. But it doesnt give the source document. That may be the key.
5:18 am on January 5th, 2009 109
Ok now to all who say I would rather be a DAK . This is all you have to do … OK you ready? CLOSE YOUR EYES, TAP YOUR HEELS TOGETHER AND SAY I WOULD RATHER BE A DAK 3 TIMES. If it works wright in and tell us all about your rush and how bad it hurt for your head to change shapes to a bucket and the skin streaching on your face so you will have a new set of button eyes.
LOL
9:38 am on January 5th, 2009 110
Rob,
Do these companies have plans to quickly replace the missing workers?
10:13 am on January 18th, 2009 111
After reading all the above comments, I take it USFK/CCK have decided not to grandfather anyone? Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but there hasn't been that much information about this issue, like how many people this is affecting.
1:54 pm on January 18th, 2009 112
Any news on this?
2:57 am on January 20th, 2009 113
So where do I send my resume? Contractors getting booted out of Korea means openings for me!
Seriously, I tried to get into the mafia when I was job hunting two years ago. It was like pulling teeth. Anything that opens opportunity is a good thing.
8:32 am on January 20th, 2009 114
Skippy, it's nearly impossible to get on as a GS or contractor in this country unless you drink beer at the VFW in Daegu, or are on the right dart team in Songtan or Itaewon.
8:36 am on January 20th, 2009 115
And that's pretty amazing considering how much civilians bitch about this place.
2:00 pm on January 20th, 2009 116
Did anybody come up with a theory as to WHY this is happening?
I can't believe, with all the talk and speculation, nobody has publicly stated why they think USFK would throw away a lot of experienced workers and compromise the mission over some ancient uncared-about regulation when so many other important and productive regulations are ignored on a daily basis.
Something stinks here, everyone is holding their nose and nobody is brave enough to take out the trash.
2:37 pm on January 20th, 2009 117
@100 I would'nt have a problem working with you, but I would working for you. You have a bias about
you that as a Bossman you should not. You don't determine what a person should be or become, the individual does. Leon is correct some folks are not cut out to be boss nor do they want to be. I know GS6,9,11 who just happy at their grade as they wanna be, why should I hold that against them. The person getting promoted is not gonna benefit me in any way, if they wanna stay overseas for rest of their days let em, how is that gonna stop you from gettin your piece of the pie? You have stated that you got 10 years overseas under your belt, that tells me your not fond of stateside yourself.
Just because I don’t approve an extention doesn’t mean someone doesn’t know their job or isn’t good at their job.
That simply does not make any sense, That statement says if I don't like you…you can kiss you Ass pirations goodbye.
Here is something you should consider, you will leave there one day and if want to come back those same folks you did not extend are the ones that rate your resume. Trust me on that one.
Poochie the reason it's impossible is because:
1. You didn't beat out the other person
2. You got a sh&&&y resume
3. You apply for GS9 position but your skillset is GS6
4. You don't pass the eligibility test
3:14 pm on January 20th, 2009 118
^
Oh you mean cheat like the rest of the folks do. OK, got it.
7:05 pm on January 20th, 2009 119
All of this "online" bickering between contractors and DAC's reminds me of the old cartoon where the sheepdog and the wolf meet each other on the way to work every morning, clock in, and then promptly go to work against each other.
"Good morning Sam." "Good morning Ralph." LOL
All I have to say about it is pot meet kettle because neither group really has a right to complain about the other.
One Team – One Fight!
9:05 pm on January 20th, 2009 120
This is a pretty funny thread.
After I retired from the AF, I spent 6 years working as a contractor and have been working as a GS for the last year (both jobs in the IT field). There are pros and cons to both sides and in the end, it all boils down to personal work ethics, morals, where you work, who you work for, and who you work with. I had to be certified as a contractor to do my job and the same is true for my GS position (but surprisingly, it's more strict as a GS); I've seen both highly skilled and motivated personnel as well as slackers across the board (i.e personal work ethics & morals). And no, I don't drink beer, haven't been to Daegu since 1989, don't frequent any VFW's, and I don't play darts either
But, I do like my bass fishing
1:01 am on January 21st, 2009 121
YEAH!! ROKDrop is back online.
Rob, "Mornin Ralph" ha ha..right on the money.
As people from both sides of the fence pretty much agree there should have been a grandfather clause on this one, I am at a loss. Not just from the common sense part, but from the fiscal as well. 100's of Contractors having to return to the States isnt peanuts. The taxpayer ends up footing the bill eventually. Same for paying for the next persons security clearance, moving them over here, and then trianing. Of course, the new people may or may not like it here. CCK booted people that wanted to stay. Thats outrageous, and taxpayers should be rather upset about it all.
Glad to see this back up. I'm going to catch up on the other posts, Cheers!!
There is a site that popped up yesterday that seems to be trying to get all the documents and stories under one roof. They have a ROKDrop link, thats how I knew this was back. 0 posts, maybe I will be the first.
8:16 am on January 21st, 2009 122
Well 121, what is the site? Or are you just teasing?
9:17 am on January 21st, 2009 123
Hi there Leon.
It doesnt have much there, its definetly a work in prgress, some of it has changed since yesterday.
http://www.USFKSOFA.com
At least it seems to only be about this topic. Must be personal.
2:37 pm on January 21st, 2009 124
Thanks, I will shamelessly promote.
Good way to share info cause we all know CCK can't keep the story straight.
1:47 pm on January 22nd, 2009 125
Leon, I looked at thet website and there is nothing posted, really nothing there. I don't reccomend people go there. Best stay home, cover your head in the sand.
2:18 pm on January 22nd, 2009 126
True on the no posts. Has to start from "0" I guess.
ha ha…sand. I got a big head, too much sand needed.
I need to keep all threads I can going, I am going to post something there.
Glad to see that hacker got taken care of. I was a little surprised to see that "I miss you"? page this morning.
Good job reloading the site!!
To everyone, don't give up. Shoot your situation (the more info the better, but a few lines is a LOT better than no lines) to all the media you can, and of course, write your Congressmen!! They are there for you, even on a planet far, far, away!!!
CQ
10:14 pm on January 22nd, 2009 127
Be careful what you ask for. Mr. Adair thought he had it straight. The government that permitted him to stay had a slightly different idea.
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&am…
1:45 am on January 23rd, 2009 128
@ 127…thats what I am worried about happpening in Korea. And I think thats the reason no one is getting a reason along with their denial. So that when it comes time, the Government can write it to keep them from being liable.
Thanks for the Article 1130, but I am going to have nightmares tonight!!
11:16 am on January 23rd, 2009 129
@128
The German tax court used factors like marriages to local nationals, home ownership, and spousal employment on the economy to determine ordinary residency. This could set a precedent for other nations to follow if they decide to get involved in this business.
What do you mean no reason is being given? Is CCK not talking or is it your company? I can't believe you were told you were denied and no reason was given.
The USAF in Germany went to bat for this guy and could muster no strength in the German tax court. The logic does not follow with your argument of not liable. Not trying to be argumentative, I just do not follow the logic. I do not see the causal relationship.
Just to be clear, my status is not in question, nor has it ever been. I was brought to the ROK from the US with a clear date of departure. I have no ties here except to do my job till 2010. I just popped in this thread as I learned of the site. Interesting reads though.
11:36 am on January 23rd, 2009 130
Yup, I couldnt understand it either. CCK has replied that they do not have to provide an explanation, and they will not talk to any individual. But I can understand why, supposedly they have had to call the MP's to escort people out of that office. Thats how it is effecting people. They are tearing apart lives.
If you have anything new to submit to your package for consideration, you are welcome to do so. Thats the good news. The bad news is you dont know what it is they need for you to submit. People waste most of their valuable time getting non specific papers together, and in most cases, this just gives them more information to look through until they can lock you out for good. Its a waiting game that they think they can win by dragging their feet. The extra info only hurts people further. Remember, these people were approved for years and years. Once you are denied, they generally give you a month.
Most of the People being denied have never had their status in question either. In some cases for almost 20 years. Until this year.
11:45 am on January 23rd, 2009 131
20 years! That is 1988. I was still in high school. Those folks seem to be the ones that Germany would like to tax. I bet they are married to Korean girls too. All they need under the German model is to own a house and they would be out a bunch of won. Hopefully the ROK stays out of it. I see both sides (I think). The government made mistakes in the past, but also, if the people do not meet the requirements… What to do? I'm gonna leave you guys to your biz, no need for me to get spun up either way on this issue. I'll just do my time and go back home.
11:52 am on January 23rd, 2009 132
1130, I know, it is a long time. But thats what they choose. Its all good, thanks for posting that other article. The mistakes were made by the Government in the past, but unknown to most Contractors. Ignorance is no excuse, but when it comes to legal, and the Government approves you intially…well, that brings us back to the "What to do". I dont know, too many rumours are flying around.
Enjoy your time in Korea, its a pretty cool place at times, you just have to get out into the real Korea, and not the city Korea. Its worth it I promise!
5:16 pm on January 23rd, 2009 133
This might be useful to you, Contractor Quo. The new president has issued a new mandate for greater responsiveness to FOIA requests.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/docs/20…
If you feel CCK hasn't been adequately responsive, you should now be able to file a complaint to the Justice Department or OMB.
Too often, acts of mismanagement, incompetent bureaucracy, and outright fraud waste and abuse are secreted. The new president proposes a more participative and open government. I believe more transparency and accountability is better. Let's see how this directive and those to follow will be implemented.
7:59 pm on January 23rd, 2009 134
The guys in Germany who were married to Germans were getting benefits such as Kindergeld and free socialized medical care for their children, correct? Yet they weren't paying anything in to the system. Please correct me if I am wrong, but many of them were living the best of both worlds: tax free status and BX/PX privileges from Uncle Sam, and socialized benefits from Deutschland even though they weren't paying anything in to the German system.
I was over there as a contractor in the late 90's / early 2000'
s, and "barely" made it through the TESA process even though I had never been to Germany before. It was a total nightmare. Back then, it also made a big difference what state you were working in too. It used to be that it was much easier to obtain TESA status in Bavaria than in Baden-Wurttemberg.
I really don't see a valid comparison between Germany and Korea. Korea offers nothing in the way of social benefits to Korean spouses, nor for the children of American fathers and Korean mothers. Germany recognized them as dual citizens and therefore supported them just as they would a normal citizen, but Korea doesn't even recognize dual citizenship.
9:50 pm on January 24th, 2009 135
#136 Good Luck with your post.
10:01 pm on January 24th, 2009 136
JoeC..Thanks!! Its all useful.
Rob, You're right, I didn't write that very well. The only point I was trying to convey was that they can pull your coverage, as they did to that guy in Germany, and he owed a lot of taxes. And in Korea, its being done by the US Government to US Citizens. Its possible that a lot of people will owe a lot of money. Thats all I was going for, just saying it can, and has, happened. In a different way, but it shows its possible. I really like the way Germany has a social commitment to its people, something that, as you mentioned, is severely lacking in Korea.
I will try to stay on the ball!!
Thanks everyone
12:12 am on January 25th, 2009 137
Exactly CQ & Rob. My question would be taxes for what? In Korea nothing is free or even complimentary. Any services such as those provided in Germany are vitually non-existant. Now if you have a Korean spouse renting out a bunch of houses, I could see an issue.
8:52 am on January 26th, 2009 138
Dang, lotsa snow!! I dont think we had that much in the last 5 years.
Leon, I meant that the door is cracked open a bit for the Korean Government to come after those people for however many years of income tax. The folks that are here working on base not under SOFA have to pay that. It may be paid by the company, but its paid somehow. There is also road tax. You know how we love our American SUV's and trucks, they are a few grand a year. Even bikes over 1000cc, they cost a bunch too. Just saying its a possibility, since the people that speak for the US Government stated they are not responsible for any mistakes made by them, even if it was years ago. Thats too much money for them not to consider it, if they arent working on it already.
Cheers, watch the ice,
CQ
9:40 am on January 26th, 2009 139
CQ, my comments reference Korea and Germany weren't directed at you. I somehow got the impression that CCK was using the German example as justification for their idiocy, and that is where I was coming from.
Keep up the good fight, and many thanks for whoever it was that started up the web site. I'm having flashbacks to the "freefed" days.
10:08 am on January 26th, 2009 140
What are the freefed days?
1:42 pm on January 26th, 2009 141
http://www.freefed.com was a site started up several years ago when General LaPorte was attempting to force DoD Civilians and Contractors to abide by the curfew.
1:57 pm on January 26th, 2009 142
http://www.freefed.com was a site started up several years ago when General LaPorte was attempting to UNETHICALLY, ILLEGALLY and UNCONSTITUTIONALLY force DoD Civilians and Contractors to abide by the curfew.
Had to jump in and assist here. It came about due to my dirtbag scum-sucking namesake, None other than Leon LaPorte.
10:31 am on January 27th, 2009 143
Oh yeah Laporte, he was a meanie.
11:16 am on January 27th, 2009 144
The closest thing to a traitor and tyrant I have ever seen a 4 star become. He was even trying to tell Korean citizens what time they had to be off the streets. 5 star asshole rating.
10:23 am on January 28th, 2009 145
haha, here's a little something for the walk down memory lane…http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/namsanbo…..freefed was a piss!
10:44 am on January 28th, 2009 146
LOL H&T!
2:19 pm on January 28th, 2009 147
Leon's time here was far from USFK proudest moment. Some more oldies on our trip down memory lane.http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=little…..http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=little…..http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=little…../Never forget
3:42 pm on January 28th, 2009 148
Imposed pseudo-martial law due to imminent terrorist threat months after the State Department dropped the warning. A lesson learned from the previous administration on how to strip civil liberties.Maybe the new administration will open the books and find out what was really going on.
10:04 pm on February 2nd, 2009 149
The Army Audit Agency needs to look into the numbers of federal civil service workers who have "homesteaded" here in Korea, many for 20 – 30years or more. Anybody come to mind? There is a whole laundry list of folks. The Yongsan DGC on down. We know, they are "Special".No wonder it is the "good ol' boy/girl" network when it comes to trying to land a job in Korea. Justlook at the former retired sergeant major from Yongsan. Retired and walked into a GS11 job(forget they wouldn't give the prior incumbent the 11). So you see, it's who you know. Needsome new blood, but no one (especially in Command chains) wnat to take that first step.
10:33 am on February 3rd, 2009 150
They get rid of them, but they go back to the US and return after one year. Even if they can't return to their original work place they take a job some place in Korea and work their way back to where they were before.
12:17 pm on February 3rd, 2009 151
So what is your point AN OLD GI and Villain? The backbone of DoD is it's civilian work force. Contractors are hired to do the grunt work and that is it. They are not management and they don't make decisions they are the equivalent of privates.
12:38 pm on February 3rd, 2009 152
@ 149: A retired SGM and all he was able to get was GS-11?? Who did he piss off?
1:25 pm on February 3rd, 2009 153
Ok had to stop in and post what I do know from my company negotiating with CCK about several of our people.
This is some sort of "house cleaning" effort by senior members at CCK, we don't know exactly who they are but this is what they've tried to do so far.
700-19 says you must have lived under an "other then SOFA" visa for more then a year to be considered a "ordinary resident". CCK is booting people for as little as 30 days. See if you leave a job, you loose your SOFA status, normally people would take a 15-30 day break till they get a new one, CCK is trying to define that "break time" as being under a non-SOFA visa, and since CCK never "reissued" the SOFA visa that person therefor NEVER had a new SOFA visa. Basically if eight years ago someone took a 30 day break, and never got a "reissue" done (aka they just kept their current one) then they haven't had a regular SOFA visa this entire time. This is 100% CCK's fault, but their trying to sweep it under the rug.
Also, what some of the company's have done is to send the "contractor" over to Japan or even the states for a few months on an alternate job, then try to "rehire" them for their old job. This exiting / reentering the country would generate a new SOFA visa, since CCK is refusing to "reissue" any visas. CCK has flat told our PM (guy in charge) that they didn't want the companies doing this, and that the company should hire someone else. Which has sparked a pretty intense debate at the senior levels, because these are private companies and legally can hire whoever fits the job requirements.
What this all boils down to is that some new people in CCK are trying to flush away all the "older" contractors who've been here many years. If their after you, you need to present then with a paper trail showing employment ever since you entered Korea. If you transitioned from the military, you need your DD-214 + all the 700-19's (or the previous version) to show that you had a SOFA visa the entire time.
If for some reason you had a break, or didn't have a SOFA visa, your pretty much screwed if they want to kick you. Only option is for your company to "rehire" you from outside Korea, (Japan / Guam / Hawaii) after a few months.
1:41 pm on February 3rd, 2009 154
And for those guys arguing about the "good ole boy network" at work, its no worse then stateside.
I would say the GS system is a bit more corrupt due to the sheer amount of red-tape required to hire someone. Just about every GS I know (in the technical field) was a contractor first, got to know lots of people, then were able to slide into the GS system. Getting on the "short list" for hiring is VERY hard unless your intimately familiar with RESUMEX and the exact "key words" the hiring official used to screen applicants. This ensures only those people that they want on the list make it to the list.
For contracting, we just keep quiet about job openings, there are dozens of jobs (soon to be many more) available right now, but there is no single central list. Normally applicants resume's are presented by people who know about the position, thus if your friend knows about a position they can recommend you and ensure your resume gets in the right hands. And because there are so many hiring authorities, and so many contracts, its almost impossible to get hired unless you know the contractors involved. So its not the "VFW" / "Darts Team" your on, its simply WHO you know and WHO's willing to recommend you for a job. This is no different then stateside in the private sector.
Both have advantages, GS's have amazing job security and family benefits. As a contractor you have to negotiate your benefits, and trust me on this, getting the DoDS written into your contract has a negative effect on your base salary. Young single guys with no family attachments have a marked advantage in initially getting on, especially if their already in Korea (no shipping, no school, less medical / family support required).
4:20 pm on February 3rd, 2009 155
Thanks for getting this back up ROK Drop!!!!
8:55 pm on February 3rd, 2009 156
T.O.G.
Nicely put.
RAO OSAN has a few things on there. I havent seen MarmotsHole entertain this topic. USFKSOFA is trying to get going. FederalSoup has a few interesting views. In general, I guess most people arent concerned enough to post unless it involves them, and then when its over, they no longer have an interest.
Thats most, not all, I know a few folks that are actually concerned for the welfare of others.
Thats the real sad part about this, many are married, have families, and do not have a job to return to in the states. Another statistic.
2:45 pm on February 4th, 2009 157
CQ,
Well anyone who's been out here awhile knows how to get around the system. Most will probably just get a job in Japan or a temp job with their company stateside for a month or two. Then get "rehired" into their old job and generate a new legit SOFA Visa. As much as CCK wants to block that, they really can't do much about it because its all legal and most of the contracting companies are heavy weights with alot of congressional "pull".
3:11 pm on February 4th, 2009 158
That was the plan for a lot of people. And it worked for some. CCK is now on the alert for that and will deny anyone trying to get back into their old job. In their opinion, that shows the "intent" to return, and not actually break that "ordinarily residency". I know of three cases so far where the individuals left for the undetermined, yet supposedly appropriate, amount of time, only to return and be denied. Thats just wrong. Since there is nothing in writing from that office that states what a person needs to do, or rather, incorrect advice given by people that do not have the authority to distribute that advice, and people have no recourse.
The other side is that if people follow the flippant advice given just to get them out of the country without too much of an argument, and go away for awhile and then come back and somehow escape detection, they will have that haunting them every year.
A Grandfather Clause is the only solution that anyone has suggested that makes sense. Once approved, you should stay approved, unless you meet one of the criteria that is clearly stated in the SOFA and 700-19. That's in the reg's themselves.
Thanks T.O.G. for the post. I know what you mean about those people who know their way around. I just would be in a constant state of worry that CCK will do this again.
Any idea on how many people have been denied so far? Or how many have had the decision reversed?
Why is the Government against the Government? Arent we all on the same team?
And question number 5…Are the DOD Civilian employees held to the same standards as Contractors? There is a Lawyer for each side of the house, who is interpreting the SOFA incorrectly?
3:41 pm on February 4th, 2009 159
@ 157: Most contracting companies are not heavyweights with a lot of congressional pull. The big ones have some clout – but most are small and don't even register as a blip on any congressmen's radar.
And more and more the customer (US military) has a say in who is being hired. If a gov't employee (military or civilian) in the hiring military organization doesn't like the prospective employee – he/she doesn't get hired. It's as simple as that.
It's not supposed to work that way – but the way it's supposed to work and way it actually works are two different things. The contractor company doesn't want to piss off the customer by hiring someone the customer doesn't want, so they heed the customer's advice regarding new hires.
In other words, if you had a run-in with someone ten years ago when both of you were on active duty – and now you're a retiree trying to get a contractor job in an organization where that other person works (either still on active duty or civil service) – you ain't getting a job there.
4:24 pm on February 4th, 2009 160
@159,
The biggest contracts on pen are for the heavyweight defense companies. Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, BAE, and L3. These offer most of the logistic and communications systems, which employ quite a lot of people are are worth a ton of money.
We've had several people get told from CCK they would have to leave pen, some were able to fight it by showing they had continuous SOFA status the entire time. Others were not so lucky. CCK also tried to boot a few people who DID have proper status, but an O6 in the appropriate position was able to the error "corrected".
As for the military people having any form of "say-so" on who's hired, that is really really dark territory your going into. Any "performance based" contract has zero government involvement in the internal structuring / hiring process, the company gets a set amount of money to accomplish work. They only have to hire as many people as they need for the job. But other types of contracts are "slot" based, where the company is tasked to provide a set number of people in support of a certain mission, on these the government might be able to have a say due, but its very dangerous because it can back fire. If the company's PM (Program Manager) is friends with several Generals / Colonels, any attempt to screw with the contract can result in harsh reprimands for the LTC / SGM / CPT doing the meddling. But all contractors that deal directly with the government folks have to remember who the customer is, so we can't be a$$'s and need to get he job done. The government writes the "performance reports" yearly to evaluate the performance on the contract, and if the COR doesn't like someone, then it can result in an interesting fight.
As for GS's getting booted, no their not being touched. They fall under a different section of the SOFA, basically as long as their in Korea working for the US Government, their considered valid.
And getting jobs is 100% about who you know and timing. I was setup to get into a job when I was transition, but my terminal leave date was two weeks too late, so I didn't get the job. Luckily I had friends who knew about job openings and two months later I got hired. Also contracting companies won't actively "recruit" anyone still on active duty. And by this I mean they'll tell you everything short of actually hiring you. They'll say "yes you can get a job" and all that jaz, but until you get an "Offer Letter" you don't have squat, and they won't give those until AFTER you sign out (some don't do it until after your official ETS date). This is to prevent any "situations" happening, mostly they don't want to be seen as competing with retention.
8:04 pm on February 5th, 2009 161
General Sharp ordered CCK, entirely,
to extend SOFA visas 90 days past expiry
Is it due to a part
of his kind heart?
Or is it the congressional inquiry?
9:52 pm on February 5th, 2009 162
Actually thats a really good idea. If CCK is screwing with you and not giving you any answers, then start the congressional inquiry precess. Back when USFK was trying to impose curfew on GS and contractors thats what it took to get that crap reversed (congressional and the union getting involved).
12:51 am on February 6th, 2009 163
What Inquiry?
6:12 am on February 6th, 2009 164
Yes, please tell us more and when might we expect the results? There are a lot of people going to be coming up soon for review.
12:31 am on February 7th, 2009 165
Can any of guys provide some advice for this person who just left this posting at the ROK Drop Forums?:
http://rokdrop.com/forums/topic.php?id=13
Thanks.
10:52 pm on February 8th, 2009 166
More USFK contractors lose jobs over visas
11:00 pm on February 8th, 2009 167
@166 is a link to the latest Stars and Stripes article on the matter.
11:19 pm on February 8th, 2009 168
My favorite part:
"When Stripes originally wrote about the SOFA revocations in October, USFK said the new enforcement came as a result of an Army Audit Agency audit of Contract Command Korea.
Stripes has since obtained the 2008 audit report. The 34-page report never mentions contractor residence, violations of USFK residence regulations or even SOFA."
Wow! S7S busted these morans, er I mean, morons straight up LYING THROUGH THEIR PH@RKING TEETH! Way to go. If the command doesn't step in now and fix this mess; we can only assume USFK, Gen. Sharp, et al are complicite in this (yet another) targeting of contractors.
Really makes the "assignment of choice" misnomer slip a few notches.
Kinda makes the sounding of bells referring to "The Army Team" (as in active duty, DOD civilian and contractor) ring hollow.
Katchi-Kaptchi da, my ass!
11:58 pm on February 9th, 2009 169
so stars and stripes cannot find any mention of invited contractors in its research and now we think we have a smoking gun. did anyone stop and think the reporter does not know what he is looking for and is too busy trying to sell copy than to seek the truth? pick any audit or ig report and you will not find any mention of invited contractors except the one that discusses it. but i guess by the time that one is published the story is over and people have moved on to the next injustice. i see a group of victims here. victims who think everyone is out to get them. cck, rok immigration, their own companies. all of these organizations are out to get them, but they are trying everything they can to stay. you are all guests in the ROK and need to play by their rules, all of them not just the ones that benefit you. are the victims stating their entire case, or just the information that gets them a sympathetic ear.
8:41 am on February 10th, 2009 170
Why wouldnt anyone do everything they could to keep their life together? That statement doenst even make sense.
Most of those people have played by the rules, especially CCK’s and the ROK’s. The only rule that changed on them has been the interpretation of the one rule that gave them the SOFA initially. Thats all. No big complaining or crying.
To get that approval in the first place, people submitted documents. They were reviewed, and approved. Facts didnt change, interpretation did, and its not the ROK that is making any noise.
How do we have 2 different offices making the call on this? One for DOD Civilians and one for Contractors? How can one group say its ok, and the other say its not. Same case, same people, same rules. Only the interpretation has changed.
Thats what I think people are getting so worked up on. Its not the same rules.
I am not going to doubt S&S’s credibility, nor Erik’s. That was a bold statement in the S&S, to be sure, and I highly doubt he was shooting from the hip.
They can report without being censored, and they do not have to do what they are told, so dont take it personally. There are many fine, stand up individuals out there that will fight for the rights of others with whatever resources are at their disposal, without having personal gain at the top of the list.
1:59 pm on February 10th, 2009 171
JAFO…where is this order by Gen Sharp to extend SOFA visas 90 days past expiration? I am looking for that policy for a two week period until we get our approved SOFA designation on our contract.
Thanks in advance
2:23 pm on February 10th, 2009 172
I haven't seen it either. Was it a blanket 90 days? Or just for people denied?
11:49 am on February 14th, 2009 173
Did we loose this thread? I hope everyone didnt get fired and have to leave. Please, anyone involved in this stay on it. ROK Drop has been excellent in getting these posts back up.
There is a group of people here that must rotate for three months a year to Iraq. CCK is going to deny them, and their families, SOFA status while they are deployed, and then must resubmit the paperwork when they return. Of course, their families will not go with them. How is the family going to get by while the sponsor is out of country?
12:03 pm on February 17th, 2009 174
Those of you following this thread may find this ROK Drop Forum posting of interest:
http://rokdrop.com/forums/topic.php?id=30
1:24 pm on February 17th, 2009 175
Some have said this was an attempt to open up more jobs for spouses – with the recent article in Stars and Stripes about a new Priority Placement Program for spouses and letting FRGs know of upcomming openings before they are announced so that spouses can get a jump on the job – this make more and more sense.
1:35 pm on February 17th, 2009 176
That is just wrong. Is that even legal? I can see that taking off into a whole world of bean soup for the command.
2:22 pm on February 17th, 2009 177
"an attempt to open up more jobs for spouses"
Because nobody can fix an airplane or maintain a secure network quite like a military spouse.
Plus they need a $100,000 signing bonus to get a security clearance.
"Honey, Kimchee Spear is coming up for the next two weeks so I'll be working 18 hour shifts in MOPP4. You, too? I guess our precious, little snowflakes will be OK home alone."
If this is the real reason, it sure doesn't seem like they thought their cunning plan all the way through.
I fail to see the advantage of getting rid of several hundred trained contractors with years of stability and experience to replace them with military wives of variable ability who will be leaving in a few years anyway.
USFK can make stupid decisions but that goes beyond making any sense. Any other theories?
Would anybody buy the theory that USFK is about to get a lot smaller? And this is an easy way to start the downsizing?
2:34 pm on February 17th, 2009 178
What I have found from working with military spouses is that they won't work. (They have to have time off because one of their kids has show and tell in school, my husband is off, so I need to be off,I need to have off to atten a community function.) You know what I mean.
3:29 pm on February 17th, 2009 179
I seriously hope USFK doesn't attempt to "encourage" company's under contract to hire spouses, that could turn into a REAL scandal really fast. Like people getting relieved fast.
The kickings seem to of slowed down, at least from what I can tell. We're into the next contract year so most of us got our new 700-19's approved, some had to go some pretty crazy stuff though.
PPP has always been an option for current government employee's (GS/KGS), its just a way to get your resume on the short list and get it in before the non-government workers. The hiring authority must still review the shortlist and pick out who they want. And while I think this is most definitely NOT legal, as PPP is designed to keep current government workers employed not hire military spouses. Just wait for the union to weigh in what they think.
4:59 pm on February 17th, 2009 180
I think the kicking slowed as their own damage control. Someone realized the number that was going out the door and possible repercussions and put on the brakes.
a Grandfather Clause is still the solution.
5:07 pm on February 17th, 2009 181
jafo, i wont knock anyone unless they are in a job and lacking the skills, but "Because nobody can fix an airplane or maintain a secure network quite like a military spouse." was pretty damn funny.
Maybe start a lawyer fund with money raised from sales of t-shirts with that.
oh man, that was a good comic relief post. thanks
7:09 am on February 21st, 2009 182
It seems the number of denials for January is 4. 4? I am getting confused again.
11:02 am on February 21st, 2009 183
Based on an article in the Morning Calm, if an individual makes the referral list and has spouse preference – management must select the spouse. With CPOs' plan to provide one-on-one help in preparing the resume to make sure it contains the right words to get referred by resumix and the new overseas PPP I think the job opportunities for spouse will increase. This may be related with the increase in command sponsor billets. I think spouse preference trumps individuals already in the GS system, vets, and all others.
We use to think female when we thought of spouses but in today's military a lot of the job seekers are male.
If they really want to open up more jobs the Army should enforce the 5 year rule like the AF does.
I've met a lot of spouses that are highly qualified for GS jobs. Personally I would prefer selecting the best qualified without regard to any preference – of course the good old boy (girl) system wrecked that train. Just look at the number of retirees who walk out one day and back in as a civilian employee the next. Army values – yea right.
11:55 am on February 21st, 2009 184
If a spouse wasnt performing up to par for the job, and in most cases these jobs wil be brand new territory, can you imagine how impossible it will be to have anyone replaced? I am not doubting their potential, just saying when you husband holds a active duty slot in any number of places, there will be a major conflict of interest. And to say "dont worry, that wont happen" is like CCK saying "dont worry, you were approved"
Crazy…its all crazy
3:36 pm on February 23rd, 2009 185
Any more news here?
8:09 am on February 26th, 2009 186
It sure did get quiet. I havent heard anything either.
8:22 am on February 26th, 2009 187
Can anyone get to this page? I get denied.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/docs/20…
It deals with the FOIA.
9:10 am on February 26th, 2009 188
The correct URL is:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/propublica/assets/docs/20…
It's a small file (>9KB), but hangs up trying to display directly in my browser. Easier to download it (right-click, save as..), then open directly in a PDF reader.
9:13 am on February 26th, 2009 189
Thanks JoeC….I am still trying to get all the info I can.
9:14 am on February 26th, 2009 190
Is there anyway we can find out which of the Government Elects are doing anything about this? Some sort of search for ongoing issues?
10:23 am on February 26th, 2009 191
At last count, I read 48 contractors lost their jobs. How many contractors are there in Korea? There are thousands of them. So a tiny fraction of them are out a job.
You got companies laying off thousands of people at a time back in the US. Under the circumstances – do you really think anyone in the gov't give's a rat's ass about these 48 contractors? Or for that matter – do you think the American public gives a hoot? I seriously doubt it.
10:42 am on February 26th, 2009 192
48 is the number THEY released. Just from casual observation I can state that the number is certainly much higher. I do not know of any organization not touched by this issue and personally know a few who are in limbo right now, while the folks at CCK are getting Hooked on Phonics in an attempt to read their own rules.
This also does not count those who left pre-emptively for whatever reason, or those who will now not wish to attempt to work in Korea.
As far as the arguement that it is only 48 people etc. If we do not protect the weak and the minorities, what does that say about us? …and about you.
10:55 am on February 26th, 2009 193
Alright – say it's 200. Or better yet – make it 500. That still isn't a pimple on an elephant's ass compared to what's happening all over the USA.
All I'm saying is that if you expect people back in the US (gov't or regular citizens) to get all worked up and show concern for a small group of people in a far off land losing their jobs – when millions of people are losing their jobs in the USA – you need to get a grip on reality and look at the big picture and how this fits into it.
11:59 am on February 26th, 2009 194
I have a very good grip. If one person, most likely a veteran, is getting screwed over wrongfully, we need to hold the idiots in control accountable. I never said I expected anyone in the US to undertsand or care. Hell, they do not care about anything outside themselves, never expected otherwise.
What does the econommy have to do with malfeasance on the part of CCK?
What do people getting laid off at GM have to do with CCK misinterpreting their own regulations and therefore disrupting peoples lives unnecessarily.
What does a bank closing in New York have to do with the USFK command turning a blind eye to ignorance, incompetence and corruption in their own organization?
Are you saying since times are "tough all over" that these folks might as well share in a piece of the action, though it is unjustified?
Perhaps we could all go out and commit some crimes. No one will care or hold us accountable, after all, things are tough back home!
That is all which is being asked, that CCK is held accountable and to realistic legal standards in accordance with common practices. Can no one understand this?
12:28 pm on February 26th, 2009 195
The post to which I originally replied is this one:
And everything I have said since – I still stand by – to sum it up in a short and sweet response: No one in the US, Korea, or anywhere else gives a phuck.
If you're one of those getting screwed – the sooner you accept that you're not going to get anyone around here to budge on this – and you move on with your life – the sooner you'll be back to work. But you're perfectly welcome to spend the next several months or years trying to get accountability for this.
12:52 pm on February 26th, 2009 196
You are right. The little guy can't win therefore we should not even attempt it.
That mountain is too high, it should remain unclimbed.
Just roll over and take it.
When you lose your job due to bureaucracy run amok, I'll keep my head down and not even whisper of that which we do not dare speak.
Well, we have 2 outs and two strikes in the bottom of the ninth. No point in sending a batter out there.
It's only a few people, screw them, they deserve no protections.
When you way of life is in jeopardy, you are only ONE guy. Good luck to ya, loser.
Bend over and take it is the American way.
That is why we are still subjects of Her Majesty the Queen.
I bet you would feel much different if it effected you. Empathy my friend, it all starts with empathy.
2:33 pm on February 26th, 2009 197
I lost my contractor position twice in a three year period – the last time being a result of CCK not approving my SOFA status because of three month lapse during which I was unemployed from the first time I lost my position (due to a change over in contracts). I didn't look for anyone to come and save me and I didn't cry in my beer hoping that I was going to get my job back. I saw the writing on the wall and moved on.
I didn't say I don't feel for the guys who are trying to keep their jobs – only that I think they are wasting their time waiting for someone in the gov't to help them.
8:25 pm on February 26th, 2009 198
@Guitard
Hmm someone sounds butt hurt. Get off the pedastool, this is about peoples lives and familys, with the family part being the emphasis. Its also at no fault of their own, and the people at CCK are hiding behind various rules to keep from getting blasted.
That being said, much of the SOFA denying frenzy seems to of quieted down since the Starts and Strips article came out.
9:30 pm on February 26th, 2009 199
That's exactly right – and that's why I moved on to bigger and better things rather than sit around hoping that somehow someone would make CCK change its ways. It's not going to happen. Almost by definition, contractors are temp hires: hence the use of a time-limited contract as a basis of employment. NO one give's a shit about contractors. And anyone who's ever been a contractor knows that only too well.
11:03 pm on February 26th, 2009 200
If BO starts a major pull out of Iraq, like he promised, you are going to have a lot of contractors looking for work. A lot are employed by the same companies that also contract here in Korea. Competition for jobs will probably heat up as more spouses arrive looking for jobs and Iraq contractors do the same – the companies may use this as a reason, along with the poor American economy, to reduce pay.
5:46 am on February 27th, 2009 201
Guiard,
"only that I think they are wasting their time waiting for someone in the gov’t to help them."
You are right. But, boy, are you a diick.
6:42 am on February 27th, 2009 202
wow, I knew people were cold, but jeeesh….even a few families ruined are a few too much. People forget that many of these jobs cant be done in the States. Loss of SOFA fires a person.
The firing sure have slowed down, I hope they can do something about the people that have been through the grinder already. I bet most would just go back to work if allowed.
I haven’t seen any talk of a grievance suit yet. What ever became of the guys that were forced out because of the curfew?
The reason I stopped by was to ask if anyone knows how to find USFK Command Policy letter #15?
7:06 am on February 27th, 2009 203
Sorry, I found it on that SOFA info site.
Cheers
12:16 pm on February 27th, 2009 204
@Pete
Not really, its hard to get someone from stateside to want to come to Korea. I know everyone likes to laugh at this part, but seriously thats why the pay/bene's are really good here, they wouldn't have anyone work out here otherwise. So no the pay won't be "reduced", and most of the contract jobs being cut from Iraq are the KBR construction type crap. Everything else is just short-term "support X mission for X number of months" stuff.
I don't expect to see a "flood" of guys running out here looking for work, honestly its hard to find people ALREADY here to fill our positions.
3:25 pm on March 2nd, 2009 205
Are we still active?
12:59 am on March 4th, 2009 206
"Obama to order gov't contracting overhaul"
The pot is being stirred again. Looking forward to seeing how the military chooses to apply these directives.
2:18 pm on March 5th, 2009 207
Oh wait…did this happen before or after her last revelation about having a job scrubbing toilets? Another publicity stunt by the Cyrus family.
2:38 pm on March 5th, 2009 208
Hi all,
Does anyone have a link to the AAA Report? They only do a few a year, so we are assuming that the one Stars and Stripes mentioned is legit.
Time fram is correct. Whats interesting is that CCK wont give the AAA Report number.
The report is out there, but we would like a link please. Thanks.
– Ed
9:06 pm on March 5th, 2009 209
Ed. You'll see it soon
8:53 am on March 8th, 2009 210
Thanks mucho Leon!!!
The last letter from CCK says it hasnt been released, yet they are still using it as thier justification of actions.
Has anyone been denied this last month? I only heard of one guy.
And I hope to have the firefox issue resolved soon. We're trying, but its new ground for us.
10:19 am on March 8th, 2009 211
We had two people where I work. One was an English teacher at the time of hire, the other had many exits and entries form the country.
11:36 am on March 8th, 2009 212
Maybe if Miley grew a mullet, Angie would want to date her?
4:11 pm on March 8th, 2009 213
Many? if it was before 2002, the regulations says you must make 4 trips out of korea in a 1 year period in order to NOT be considered "oridinarily resident in the United States."
I also heard they are going by the 2007 reg. How are people supposed to time travel and adjust their history?
4:00 am on March 9th, 2009 214
This is all an unfortunate situation.
I completely understand what the contractors are going through. I feel very, very sorry for most of them.
CCK (with the full backing of USFK) is making arbitrary decisions… with a complete lack of transparency… and a complete lack of due process… for reason which are likely unrelated to what they state… while violating documented regulation… and making up rules as they go along… and nobody really cares and nobody is going to do anything about it.
This is exactly what I faced… along with a dose of corruption…
…and I got a minimum of sympathy here… including from some of the contractors who have been affected by this. Too bad for them.
If you aren't fighting injustice, even secretly, you have no one to blame but yourself when it affects you.
ls sie die HuhnKopf holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein HuhnKopf.
Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
6:28 am on March 9th, 2009 215
Be careful – JAFO is going to call you a d!ck for saying this. Even though it's true – you're not supposed to say things like this because it is insensitive.
8:45 am on March 9th, 2009 216
We will continue to do what we can. We still hope someone will step in. If we didnt, we have no room to talk later on, or now.
There are still good people in our government, its a matter of getting the right things to them at the right time. The lack of organization is a killer. Even some Senators we know have 3 or more of these cases in their offices, and didnt have them in a related file.
Its just a damn shame ethics and morals got lost somewhere along the way.
We hate reading the footer they are putting on everyones denials:
"There are several options available to Mr. X and other contractors who are affected by this finding:
(1) The company through which they were hired can continue to employ them in country under a non-SOFA status. In this case, the contractor will still need an employment visa similar to any other foreign national employee working in the ROK and will be subject to host nation taxation.
(2) The company can reassign/transfer the employee back to the United States, either permanently or to allow them to establish ordinary US residency, thus making them eligible to return to Korea under SOFA status if authorized under such contract,
(3) The contractor can independently re-establish ordinary residency in the United States and attempt to be re-hired in Korea under an existing contract.
We appreciate the services of our contractors and recognize they are a valuable asset to our security efforts at home and abroad. However, we are limited by and must adhere to our legal agreements with the host nation and the constraints of our respective laws. I strongly recommend that Mr. X work directly with his employer to develop the most suitable and appropriate solution."
The three "options" are illusionary non-options. The fact of the matter is CCK is secretly and arbitrarily reversing determinations that are decades old, some being 100% totally legit at the time. The 700-19 had diferent and clear definitions until 2002.
The final statement of "we are limited by and must adhere to our legal agreements with the host nation and the constraints of our respective laws" is a pure rub. As we said, many people WERE in complete compliance until 2002 when changes were made. Those people should be grandfathered without question. They reasonably relied on those previous decisions, and these reversals are having absolutely devastating and far reaching effects.
And this:
"US Army Audit Agency Audit #A-2009-0XXX-FFP (pre-decisional and not yet releasable to the public) revealed in May 2008 that USFK had improperly granted IC status to a number of contract employees. It directed USFK to conduct a detailed review of its current IC program, including new applicants. USFK discovered that approximately 50 out of 2,200 contractors, or 2 percent of its total IC personnel, were in violation of the SOFA and supporting regulations."
The audit we viewed says nothing about any of that. It states how money flowed out the door to people that didnt do what they were contracted to do. 2% is 2% too much when it concerns real U.S. Citizens and their lives and careers. As far as that being a part of an audit, there wouldnt have been an audit concern for 2%.
Fail.
11:41 am on March 9th, 2009 217
Clarification….the Senators are NOT the ones who lost their morals and ethics, they are doing what they can with the tools at their disposal. These are fairly unique cases, and I doubt the entire scope of the situation was readily apparent.
Just wanted to clear that up. Big thanks to all the Representitives that have reacted to this outrage, you have our respect.
3:47 pm on March 9th, 2009 218
guitard,
"Be careful – JAFO is going to call you a d!ck for saying this. Even though it’s true – you’re not supposed to say things like this because it is insensitive."
I hope not.
I think JAFO was not condemning those who spoke the Truth about the System.
He was condemning those who empower the System with excuses and rationalizations. He was condemning those who would rather selfishly or lazily support a bad system than put even the smallest effort to change it for the benefit of everyone. He was condemning those who showed hatefulness instead of sympathy for the people who had their lives disrupted by a bad system and the selfish bureaucrats who consolidate power within it.
I fail to see any problem with this line of reasoning.
I fought the System. I beat (or skirted) the system… but not most of the people who perpetuated that system through careerism and corruption. They all got promoted instead of investigated.
For me it wasn't life-changing. I simply opened a new bar and let USFK focus on "ChickenHead" instead of it.
Some of these contractors will find it hard to get a job that is even close to what they are losing. Add this to a debt ratio based on their "secure" job and the hassle of liquidating a local household developed over years, and it is a life-altering experience.
I feel very terrible for most of these people because I fully grasp their needless frustration and helplessness.
For others… the ones who took every chance to counter my fight against USFK injustice… including transparency, accountability, consistent application of regulations, due process, etc… I feel no small amount of glee that they are tasting their own bitter medicine… and it is only time (and not tact) that keeps me from going back over their posts and cheerfully quoting their vitriol-filled statements which now apply to them.
That may make me a d!ck. I can live with it.
8:23 pm on March 9th, 2009 219
Word is that Mr. Bonner has 3 congressionals that he has to respond to. Right you congressman and stop this madness
8:23 pm on March 9th, 2009 220
i men write your congressman today
4:55 am on March 10th, 2009 221
Colonels and Generals reply to Congressmen and Senators. The person you refer to is only a spotter for the snipers.
CH, yup, and its the pits when kids get caught up for no reason, like missing the last quarter of the school year. Some will miss graduating with classmates they have known their entire lives.
There isnt even a job for a lot of those men to go to. The folks that have specialized training arent going to walk into another slot. 10 years…flushed. But its ok, because at 40-50 years of age, there is plenty of time left to re-educate and begin another career. The decades of experience might be a little tough though.
8:04 am on March 10th, 2009 222
Every Congressional reply we have seen looks almost like the first denial from contracting. The next ranking person just adds to it, and signs it. For sure, evaluations are not being done to help a person retain their job.
It would be interesting to know how many decisions have been reversed.
8:42 am on March 10th, 2009 223
I read an article where the AF is planning to covert contractor positions to GS so they will be able to hire more spouses.
9:34 am on March 12th, 2009 224
Did everyone that was getting fired get fired already? Is there anyone that had their decision reversed? It almost seems like there is a gag order on everyone. There was some good steam behind this, are people giving up the fight?
We thought it was for a good cause, is there a regrouping someplace we need to know about? 220 posts, odd it just slowed to this pace.
8:52 pm on March 13th, 2009 225
I don't think there was ever a good fight. Local hires are basically forbidden by the regs. This applies not only in Korea but in other foreign countries as well.
9:01 pm on March 13th, 2009 226
Local hires happen evey day. This includes current and former dependents. Also, people change jobs, positions are realigned, contracts change hands, etc.
It is a good fight. This is not about local hires. This is about USFK (CCK) running riot over a lot of good people for no good reason. It is possibly criminal if not at least immoral. What has been happening to people is in direct contradiction to the highly held and constantly pushed "Army Values". I guess it is ok though if it only hurts worthless ass dirtbag contractors.
9:15 pm on March 13th, 2009 227
They can do whatever they want to. I think you hit it on the head Leon, they are firing contractors (a lot of them retirees, whom they are squeezing out) and giving the jobs to dependents or Koreans.
11:22 pm on March 13th, 2009 228
General LaPorte Sir,
With all due respect sir your are right and I fully support Army values. I hope you and your family are doing well.
V/R
COl Moe
12:38 am on March 14th, 2009 229
Can you provide some specific examples of this? No names – just brief descriptions of job positions where this has happened.
9:32 am on March 14th, 2009 230
Guitard, no problemo. Osan Tricare office. Retired guy worked there for 2 years and by all accounts did an outstanding job. So, they fired him because of the "Ordinarily Resident" rule and now some Lt's dependent wife has that job.
10:00 am on March 14th, 2009 231
One of the 2 Credit Union manager positions was filled by a dependent. But its not that straight forward. If a contractor is fired, most cases a dependent will not qualify for the job, however, another person that is qualified will step in, and THAT vacated position will be filled by a dependent. It trickles down pretty fast.
We am sure someone will publish something at sometime that says "only X% of the fired contractors were replaced by dependents" in order to make it look like that was not the covert reasoning.
They have the perfect built in cover for it all. No direct trail.
We heard the firings have resumed in force again. It may just be there are more people local to the area and we are hearing their dying screams.
10:23 am on March 14th, 2009 232
To do what they've done is beyond despicable. They audited CCK and then retroactively fired contractors.
I could see where they could have just said "Okay, from now on nobody can get hired for this arcane, silly rule" but to go ahead and fire contractors using this as an excuse? Beyond Despicable.
..and they didn't have the balls to truthfully say WHY they were doing this.
Further insult to injury: They didn't touch one single GS worker, and the same rule DEFINITELY applies to them. I personally know 3 or 4 GS workers who were already in Korea when they got hired, thus they are/were "ordinarily resident".
10:57 am on March 14th, 2009 233
I t bears repeating to drive the fact home, so everyone understands. The audit did not mention anything about contractors and SOFA status. No one has been able to produce any documentation to prove otherwise, and the Army Audit Agency post audits on it's website.
CCK has taken a play out of the AAFES playbook (regarding gas pricing policies): Lie, obstruct, and then no comment.
I also agree that the SOFA applies equally to contractors, dependents and GS. Yet I've heard of not even an investigation in that domain. What about dependents that have been hired into contractor jobs. Were they here, in their previous status, "soley to support the mission of USFK" as defined by CCK?
The Koreans (immigration) will tell you the only thing they would be concerned about would be USFK doing a local hire on a person who has been working in country illegally.
They are not concerned about people with legal visas changing employment (i.e. LEGAL (E-2), properly accredited English teachers getting a job with USFK), they are not concerned about people being hired to work in Korea who were living in another country. And yet CCK is going after these people, and anyone else they imagine *might* be in a slightly unique position or have a gray area.
By CCK's interpretation, anyone who rents a house or apartment *could* in theory be showing "intent" to reside in Korea and therefore be an ordinary resident making them ineligible for A-3 SOFA status.
1:55 pm on March 14th, 2009 234
Leon you are what we call in the Army an s*&t house lawyer. You offer all these opinions, advice, and yet you offer nothing to back it up. The napoleon picture fits you right.
I drink with someone in CCK who told me the report Leon, stars and stripes, and anyone else who is crying is crying about the wrong report. The AAA report that talks about contractors getting status illegally is being finalized this month and the report will be available soon. Here is an interesting tidbit for you though, the review of all IC packet was initiated by the organization that was under the audit and not CCK.
I ask what will you cry about when the report backs up CCK claim? I know you what you people can complain about? How about the cost of drinks for the drinkie girls, as I am positive some of you guys visit.
He also told me they have reviewed 90% of the contractors’ packets and that is why the number of people being denied is going down. Once they have completed the review of current contractors only new hires will have to go through the process of review.
What’s wrong with dependents getting jobs, I know many contractors who wife’s work as contractors also.
I have read many of the other posts and in some you guys slam S&S as not knowing what they are doing. However, for this story you think they are they greatest new paper in the world and they could not have made any mistakes.
My friend told me that CCK has not had to reverse a decision based on the numerious congressional.
One last think CCK does not fire contractors.
2:25 pm on March 14th, 2009 235
Thanks!
I am looking forward to reading the results of this audit. I'm certainly no lawyer but am capable of reading and comprehending english somewhere slightly above a forth grade level. I'm sure it will be posted prominently along with the audit which lables folks, such as your good drinking buddy from CCK, as incompetent and failures in their mission of stewardship regarding U.S. tax payers money.
I am certain your good friend, the godfather of your children – who has keys to your house and accompanies your wife on long trips to ballroom dancing competitions, I am certain he would freely admit lying or misrepresenting the facts to make his own position look better. They must have a rock solid position to have been through all those congressionals without a single dent. Good show!
I suspect all of us shiathouse lawyers know that not being reversed on a congressional means an organization is morally and legally upstanding and beyond all reproach.
I can only speak from personal experience and discuss things I have discovered about this process through my own diligence. Through your first hand knowledge of the facts, after all you have pounded a few back with one of our CCK heroes, it appears you have a slight stench of the ol' shiathouse lingering about your person as well.
I also don't mind throwing around a few rumors and inuendo if an organization is not forthcomming in explaining its policies and truthful about its operations. IF it embarrassed them into publicly "coming out", it would be worth it.
The truth will set you free, and my good drinking buddies out at the bar ALWAYS tell me the complete, unvarnished truth. I'm happy yours do as well.
2:31 pm on March 14th, 2009 236
Nothing wrong with Dependents getting jobs. A lot wrong with dependents getting a job over a qualified person who got fired for doing nothing wrong. A lot wrong with a person getting fired for arcane and politically motivated reasons.
2:32 pm on March 14th, 2009 237
I agree with US Interest First. When a position is filled by a contractor it takes away jobs fom depenants and DoD employees. I say get rid of all contractors except those in positions that cant be fiiled by depenant and DoD employee.
4:14 pm on March 14th, 2009 238
Leon did I hit too close to home for you. Sounded like a Sunday sermon, with one exception, you once again provided no facts or insight into your position.
Everyone tells their side of the story to gain sympathy or to swing favor in their direction. I would suspect someone who is smarter than a 4th grader would understand this.
When there are two sides to a story each side spins it their way. The outside has takes both answers and looks for what overlaps. The truth is somewhere in the middle. However, I guess we are not as smart as you are; we should take what you say as gospel and shut up.
I feel sorry for the people who have been told they cannot have IC Status. However, does it change the fact that they received a benefit they were not entitled to to have in the first place?
I know this person at CCK; I know what kind of person he is. I know the charitable work he does, how many hours of volunteer work he does. I do not know you, so why should your "BIAS" opinion mean anything to me or anyone else.
Your drinking buddies and 4th grade graduation class excluded of course.
I hope this is not your waterloo.
6:01 pm on March 14th, 2009 239
Not at all, I'm quite fine. I'm sure you will post here when the "real" audit is complete, yes? Your friend will let you know, right? I like others, just want the truth, and feel there are a lot of smoke and mirrors being deployed by USFK. Why not just contact S&S and tell the truth and their motivation. They could even post it on the USFK website or brief the COR's.
As for my name-sake and avatar, his waterloo was an illegal curfew.
6:57 pm on March 14th, 2009 240
Leon, you make me laugh when you talk about the "illegal curfew". That would be the one where the union filed a greivance and then withdrew one week before arbitration because they were going to file a lawsuit instead. That was lawsuit that was withdrawn when the judge issued a show cause order for why the suit should not be dismissed for failure to state a claim. See it turns out the curfew wasn't illegal at all. Oh well, enjoy your delusions of grandeur. I know we all had a good laugh at the foolishness of the whole charade. Your namesake was quite pleased with the outcome FWIW.
I'm not going to weigh in on the contractor controversy, it is for the most part out of my lane and I don't comment publically on current USFK issues. I will say that there is a big push to increase family member employment opportunities in conjunction with normalized tours. However, I have never heard any talk about doing that on the back of contractors. I do know that the Obama administration is taking a hard line on contracting in general. And it is a fact that DA civilians come much cheaper than a contractor. I'd expect to see a significant increase in civ hires in the coming months and relatively few new contracts. That's my sense of things.
One more point–comparing hiring rules between civs and contractors is basically apples and oranges. I know the ROKs apply different standards as well. Take driver's licenses for example…
7:48 pm on March 14th, 2009 241
John,
Somehow, I was under the impression that the lawsuit concerned issue of pay and not the actual legality of the curfew.
Out of curiosity, under what law was the Untied States military able issue restrictions on the movements of American civilians? Under what law were they able to enforce this on non-American soil?
I ask this because if there is no law making this legal, it would be an "illegal curfew".
This whole story went away with a lot of unanswered question. This certainly left the impression that it was an illegal curfew and USFK lost the battle.
9:40 pm on March 14th, 2009 242
The curfew as imposed by USFK WAS illegal. The US does NOT have martial authority in the ROK, only the Korean government can do that. When the grievance / law suit was filed, USFK responded that under certain federal laws US federal workers would have to abide by the curfew IF it was a "War zone" or the civilians were on a "stand by" duty. What USFK didn't think about was all the additional pay required to KEEP the civilians in that "stand by" posture, they would have to pay the civilians for each hour they were on "stand by", which totaled into hundreds of hours PER civilian. That is a crap ton of money that USFK didn't want to pay, so they kinda backed down.
No DA civilians are not "much cheaper", like military they require a certain level of "logistical support". Contractors require almost no real support other then base privileges, we have to find our own medical care, pay for schooling "at cost", and deal with out own housing situation. If you really checked into it, contractors get less then DAC's do for housing, just we get it in a single amount with no respect to where we live, but DAC's have a "cap". Thing is, with a DAC there is no incentive to find a cheaper place, so they find the biggest / nicest place they can within the limit of the allowance (which is determined by the state department). And that's not even going into how different contracts allocate manpower, under a "performance based" contract there is no "positions" only a "service required". The Contracting company hires as many people as it needs to get the job done, but the company only gets a single figure for the contract. So it behooves them to get the most qualified to get the job done with the least amount of people, so they can pocket as much as possible.
Really if your going to comment, you need to know what your talking about.
11:18 pm on March 14th, 2009 243
John, You seem to have the inside track on DAC jobs.
I have been considering retirement and was working on seting up a DAC job so I could retire and then get the job as a civilian (12/13). I think I will still have the good buddies in place to take care of me, but now you mentioned some big push to increase family member employment. Do you know when this will happen. I need to know so I can plan how soon I need to retire.
Thanks
Army Strong with Values.
COL Moe
11:42 pm on March 14th, 2009 244
THEOTHERGUY
If you are a contractor, do me a favor and ask your company to see the contract they were awarded for the position you are working. I am willing to bet that you are maybe getting 40 to 60 percent of what the contract was awarded for your position.
You may be right in the long term, when you count retirement DACs may be more expensive. However, in the short term, here and now, your company was awarded a contract for the position that you are working that is for more than what the average DAC is making.
However, as a person who writes and awards contracts, when your company places a bid, they take into account everything you said a DAC gets. Because when you (the employee) negotiate your pay, you should consider those things as part of your negotiations. Companies know individuals do not do their homework and do not consider those things; this allows the company the opportunity to low-ball you and make a larger profit.
If a contract calls for eight people in Korea, the contractor may put all the bells and whistles on four or five of those positions (full ride, school, housing, moving costs, medical, ect). The others they low-ball the number so they can keep their bid competitive. Then when they are awarded the contract, they try to hire people in Korea (so they do not have to pay moving costs or other costs associated with bringing people from the states) to try to keep the pay low (for the reasons stated above). If the employee takes the first offer because it is more money then he or she made in the military or teaching English off base, then the company keeps the rest.
The company has no obligation to you the employee. They do have an obligation to the shareholders and the bottom line of the company. There are companies out there that are overcharging the Government with no shame. That was the point of the AAA audit that everyone likes to quote for invited contractor status.
Ask your company to see the contract you are working on, then you can determine if the company is holding back or if the Government is out to get you. My bet is the company will not let you see the awarded contract.
6:47 am on March 15th, 2009 245
We dont know of any companies that only give half thier employees the benefits. Its all or nothing. And school for dependents on the contractor side is almost non existent nowadays.
But for sure, the comapany keeps a big chunk of what it considers its "share" of your employment.
The difference being that contracts can take out much of the expense such as legal support (which most people do not know they are no longer entitled to) DoDDS for the kids, and on and on. Thats pricey stuff. Even if you had a family before the contract you are now on, this year they may only be 1 airline ticket for you, and youo have to pay for your wife and kids. (and car).
Contract Man's point should be that everyone should be able to see what it is they are entitled to before they sign the papers. Of course, pulling teeth is easier.
US Interest is…well, I think I am going to leave that one alone.
And this IS A FIRING from CCK.
8:17 am on March 15th, 2009 246
Contractors are a joke, they want you to believe that without them everything would fall apart. They put up a bitch about the curfew, they want to be different than everyone else. I hope the forceing out of contractors is due in part to the fight put up over the curfew. Get all contractors out I say unless they do something that no DAC or Military person can do. What babies you people are…
8:37 am on March 15th, 2009 247
We know many contractors that never said that, nor do they want you to believe that. Many contractors would be just as content if they rolled over their slots to DAC. And what would be wrong with that? You get the experience of the person already there, and greater support for the ex-contractor.
Not a bad idea to look into.
We sure dont speak for everyone, but dont put everyone in the same pot.
8:40 am on March 15th, 2009 248
And please dont reply with "I meant most". You dont know "most".
8:53 am on March 15th, 2009 249
My comment applies to all contractors sitting in positions that can be filled by DAC's or familiy members, get out so there are more jobs for those that deserve them. You are not wanted or needed and are easily replaced.
9:30 am on March 15th, 2009 250
I'm with Contract Man. Companies are there to make the most money possible. I happened across a Northrup Grumman contract. The contract was for 5 manned security positions 24/7. The contract was awarded for $2,170,000. The employees were paid $11.50 per hour. That is roughly $503,700 per year (5*24*365*11.5 ). Add another $125,000 the company pays in insurance, taxes etc. and that leaves NG with a profit of $1,541,300. When I told the lead security guard for NG these numbers and that he should start a union a lawyer from NG called me and threatened me. I told him to pound sand and promptly spread the information with as many people as I could.
9:31 am on March 15th, 2009 251
TOG: It doesn't matter whether you agree with me, but I know what I am talking about–I was there.
"Stand by pay" was precisely the issue of the grievance/lawsuit. There was never a claim that the CDR lacked authority to impose a curfew.
To be eligible for stand by pay the gov't has to substantially restrict your ability to engage in normal activities during your free team. Under the USFK curfew, you could engage in any actiity you wanted, as long as you were not on the street between 2400-0500. You could be in your house, a hotel, on base, at a friends place, doing whatever you wanted. That did not meet the standard for "stand by duty pay". The key word being duty, no one was expected to peform duty during curfew hours, they just had to remain in their place of lodging.
There was a ton of case law on this issue and many involved more severe restrictions than those imposed by the curfew. For example, those guys who work for NTSB as airline accident investigators have to stay within a 30 mile radius of the airport. And they can't get drunk. The court said "no" stand by pay entitlement in this situation.
The union didn't have a case. That's why the grievance/lawsuit was withdrawn. I'd call that a win for
USFK. BTW, I disliked the curfew as much as anyone, I just never drank the kool-aid that made me believe it was illegal.
As another commenter pointed out correctly, individual contractors may not make more than a DAC, but the per employee cost of the contract is generally 1/3 more than a DAC.
Contractors provide a valuable service to our military and are an important part of the mix necessary to meet mission requirements. I'm just saying that under current circumstances I expect there will be more DACs in that mix.
9:37 am on March 15th, 2009 252
Chickenhead: The correct question is what law says a curfew can't be imposed? Unless there is a law prohibiting an action, the action is by definition legal.
The courts have held that an overseas commander has the ulitimate responsibility for OPSEC and force protection. Absent a compelling reason to do otherwise, the courts will not second guess a commanders action to meet those responsibilities.
Again, the union never challenged the right to impose a curfew. The claimed a right to standby duty pay during the hours of the curfew. That claim was shown to be without merit.
9:40 am on March 15th, 2009 253
Precisely correct. Individuals may make more or less than a DAC. It is the price of the contract that makes a contractor more expensive.
9:45 am on March 15th, 2009 254
COL Moe: There is no such thing as a "family member" job. They have to compete like everyone. Family members receive a preference in the pecking order (as do Vets), but managers are still expected to pick best qualified individual for the position.
Interestingly, President Bush signed an executive order prior to leaving office that will permit spouses to be given civil service status when hired. That's big.
11:19 am on March 15th, 2009 255
Umm exactly WHERE did a MILITARY GENERAL obtain the LEGAL AUTHORITY to impose MILITARY AUTHORITY on US CIVILIANS in a SOVEREIGN NATION. That is not remotely legal no matter how you spin it. The military can't even impose a curfew on civilians IN THE US, its against the constitution. The legal authority for the Republic of Korea would have to pass a law authorizing the curfew on civilians on a A3 visa status. And then the KNP's would have to be the ones to enforce it. Its all about jurisdiction, USFK as a military authority has ZERO jurisdiction outside post. They can impose regulation on military members due to the UCMJ, which civilians do NOT have to follow (unless during martial law).
Really isn't hard to understand….. this isn't North Korea ya know..
11:35 am on March 15th, 2009 256
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
Vacancy Announcement Number: KOFM09319402
Who May Apply:
Korea-Wide.
Persons with Military Spouse Preference who are in the commuting area of the place of work.
Applicants who are eligible for Family Member appointments on Leave Without Pay (LWOP) in the commuting area of the vacancy.
U. S. Citizens residing in the commuting area (except ordinary residents) who are eligible for a family member appointment.
11:56 am on March 15th, 2009 257
Wow I wasn't aware of the sheer amount of hate / spite towards individuals employed by private companies. You realize most contractors are ex-military, any of them retired. Heck most I know spent some time as GS's at one point or another. If you hate the private companies then that is your own prerogative, just don't blanket hate an entire sub population of people.
And yes I know about the companies getting more then what they provide to the individual, but the cost of most contracts are less, especially once you consider the administration / logistical support required.
12:38 pm on March 15th, 2009 258
Umm no, this isn't a police state. And… how exactly is USFK making laws in a foreign nation? The US government doesn't even have the ability to make laws in sovereign nations.. much less its military arm. That would be like Korea making a law that Korean Citizens in America would have to be indoors between 0100 and 0500….
12:41 pm on March 15th, 2009 259
And … if USFK was "correct" legally and financially with its imposed curfew…. WHY did they quickly change it back? Sorry you sound like you have no clue what actually happened.
12:42 pm on March 15th, 2009 260
Saying something is "blantantly illegal" is different than it actually being illegal. At least here on Earth. I seriously doubt the Dept. of Justice would have defended USFK had the CDR lacked authority to impose the curfew. But as I said previously, even the union attorney's had enough common sense to not challenge the curfew policy per se, they only argued that civilians should be compensated for the hours they were restricted.
I really don't believe you are that obtuse not to get it, but I will explain the way things work to you anyway. Let's say the MPs observe a civilian off post after curfew (or maybe in an off limits prostitution bar). You are right that they have no authority over civilians in that situation. What they do is have the KNP officer that accompanies them ask to see your ID. Then they take your name back to your boss. Your boss then has the authority to impose appropriate administrative action. This might be discipline for violation of USFK rules, or more likely, we would send your ass home. We call it "failure to adapt to the overseas environment".
See here's the deal: The Army has rules. We work for the Army so we follow those rules. If you don't want to play by Army's rules, you can go work for someone else. Because this isn't North Korea, you won't be shot. Just fired.
I know this might be a tough concept for you to grasp, but in the real world that's just the way things work.
Bottom line, the CDR has the authority to impose a curfew, declare places off limits, and otherwise take whatever actions he deems appropriate to ensure the safety and well-being of the USFK workforce. We are here to support the mission, we don't get to make the rules.
12:59 pm on March 15th, 2009 261
Um, are you really this ignorant? USFK does not make laws. They are called work rules. And guess what, employees are expected to obey work rules or suffer the consequences. Now, I understand that some folks don't cotton much to their employer making rules that govern off-duty conduct, but that goes with the territory when working overseas.
And guess what, if Samsung told their Korean workers in the USA not to stay out after midnight I expect they would either obey or be sent back to Korea (or fired). Funny how that works out, huh?
1:09 pm on March 15th, 2009 262
You are right. I have no clue what actually happened. My direct involvement was all in my head. Thanks for setting me straight on that.
Funny how it turned out, what with USFK engaging in illegal activity and owing thousands of dollars to the oppressed workers forced to stay off the street during curfew hours and all. The union filing suit several months after the curfew was lifted. And getting their ass handed to them by the judge.
Damn, you would think the federal courts would know the law. I guess they should have just asked you.
1:11 pm on March 15th, 2009 263
Umm USFK isn't my boss their my customer. And they WERE TRYING to use the visa approval as a threat towards people staying on base and guess what… it backfired. And my point still stands, if USFK was cozy and completely within its "rights" to impose that curfew on American Citizens working in the ROK, then WHY did they quickly revert the policy back?
They were wrong, VERY wrong. In order to maintain the legality of a curfew they would of had to pay MASSIVE amounts to the government workers. And they have ZERO authority to impose a curfew on people who are not federal employees. It all comes down to enforcement, if you can't enforce something then it doesn't exist. They were not able to enforce it due to legal / political ramifications. Not a single GS / contractor got their sofa status revoked due to violating the "curfew".
1:18 pm on March 15th, 2009 264
Nice try, Leon. I admit you had me going there for a minute. As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say, here's the rest of the story (from the job posting you referenced):
"About the Position: – This position was KGS-11.
- This is Korean national designated position and is temporarily converted for U.S. family member occupancy. . U.S. citizen family members may be considered for Korean National positions in the absence of qualified Korean national current employees. Incumbent may be subject to displacement under Korean national RIF procedures. "
In accordance with USFK Reg. 690-1, positions designated as KN can only be filled by KNs unless there are no qualified internal applicants. Then family members may apply. If no qualified family applies, external hiring of a Korean is permitted. If a family member is selected, the position reverts to KN when vacated.
A US civilian position is open to ALL qualified applicants and cannot be limited to family members only.
1:18 pm on March 15th, 2009 265
The "commander" isn't my boss, nor do I work for him. Get it straight. Its very obvious your military so I'm pretty sure your pissed that your stuck with the curfew and civilians are not. Also "the Army" isn't in command of the KTO, its a Joint Command.
Notice CURFEW DOES NOT APPLY TO CIVILIANS, it was there for a few months, then got reversed due to legal considerations. Most of the considerations were from the GS as they have a union, contractors were just told to basically ignore it as USFK didn't really have any method to enforce it. They can't just "kick you out" without a reason, even now their using the "violation of sofa eligibility" to kick people out. But NO WHERE does it state "if you piss off the commander we can take your visa".
Really, some of you people think this is a police state or something.
1:27 pm on March 15th, 2009 266
Yes you don't know what happened and your talking out your neither regions. At most you know someone who was working on the situation and gleaned your information over a bear or during a smoke break.
Seriously, this is the internet, I can say I'm the General if I wanted to. And this never went to any federal courts, heck it stopped the moment the federal workers union got involved and pointed out the requirements for the additional pay. USFK back peddled really fast once that happened, then afterwords everything was just dropped as the status quo was restored. If USFK was correct, and all these supposed "courts" and "legal proceedings" validated them, then the curfew would of stayed imposed on civilians.
USFK was wrong, the command (at the time) knows it, I know it, everyone else knows it (except maybe you). A military command can not impose a damn thing outside its realm of jurisdiction. This isn't a police state, there is no martial law. The most they can do is "highly suggest" that we follow their policies. The most they can say is "if their out at that time then they won't be capable of performing their job in the case of an emergency" in reference to the EEC/MEC people. In that case it becomes a money issue (similar to civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan).
1:33 pm on March 15th, 2009 267
John, thanks for your interest. I'm sure you can straighten this out and glad you have found your way to this board. Your inside knowledge could prove most valuable to this community.
What I'd like to know is this: When I self nominated for one of these positions (one with a "FM" in the announcement number, just like this one) and claimed my veterans preference, I was told by CPOL that was was ineligible for it because, wait for it… I am not a family member. Are you telling me I was lied to by the CPOL? What is my recourse here? Thanks much in advance for your assistance!
2:17 pm on March 15th, 2009 268
There seems to be a general misunderstanding of how dirty nasty "contractors" exist. There are many different types of contracts that may be awarded depending on what DoD (or one of its subordinate command) wants.
There is a "service" contract, where the requesting command wants a set number of people to provide a service for that command. I.E. USFK has several people from CISCO and TANDBERG over here who provide technical services and act as technical representatives from their companies. I actually know the guys byname, and their whole job is to go around pen and help out the various commands with any technical issues they have.
There is also the "performance based" contract, which is the requesting command wanting a company to provide "service" for an entire project / scope. This is similar to the gate guards, USFK doesn't tell the company how many total to hire, only what it wants (24/7 manning of the gates with two to three guards at all times) and its up to the company to provide that service. There are no "positions" that a DAC or FM could fill as the actual number of people and management of those people is 100% done by the company. You also can NOT "convert" this into a DAC type thing, as it would require a command to completely take it over and provide manning from within the organization. That would mean creating new jobs AFTER taking over the "mission", also would mean the command who inherited it would have to run and manage it, so they would have to allocate more man power for that part too. Think about the MP's taking over the gates 100%, they currently don't have enough MP's on pen to do that, and the military is trying to REDUCE its present here, not increase it.
There are also "best value" contracts that are awarded for completing some set task or mission. Usually involving construction, but can also involve short term support of a specific mission. These all expire often without the option for renewal. Think about USFK hiring a company to do analysis work during an exercise then provide a report to USFK regarding some facet or performance metric.
There are also "supply" type contracts that are awarded for the purchase of equipment. Like when they purchase computers over here for life cycle, the area DOIM's request through CCK for the purchase of X number of systems meeting a specification. CCK then puts the request out as a bidding, and whomever can supply those systems for the lowest amount wins.
And there is "sole source" agreements, which means a unit / activity needs a specific company to provide the service. Usually due to equipment compatibility or technical expertise (asking CISCO to provide engineers to install a VoIP solution based on CISCO components). These are where most of your corruption happens because there is no competitive bidding process.
Now there are all short hand descriptions, cause each contract awarded is unique. They often use much of the same language but are tailored to the specific requirements and agreements between the requester (the command / activity) and the provider (private company).
Now to provide for those manpower requirements, and obtain the required technical support, many private companies like to hire ex-military, especially if they've got in depth knowledge of the system already. These are your so-called, dirty / nasty / corrupted / lazy / insert-bad-word-of-choice-here "contractors". Just people who were hired by a private company to provide a service to a military organization. We are no better or worse then the DAC's, the military (most contractors are vets), or any other human being.
2:52 pm on March 15th, 2009 269
If a dependent is hired here in country, are they "ordinarily resident in the United States"? Can you convert from GS to Contractor and keep SOFA if you do it in country? Has there been a time frame established for when you give up "ordinarily resident in the U.S." status?
One more please, since many people that have written to us qualify for SIFA under the rules when they were hired, what is the basis for using a current reg to go back and change the definition. i.e. someone that was here back between 1992 and 2002 when the definitions were black and white. Like the guy that was here in 2001 for 93 days going to school. Hhe met the conditions for still being "ordinarily resident in the U.S." yet was shot down by CCK.
I would have thought that you must use the regs from the year you were granted SOFA. Like getting a drivers permit at 18. You dont surrender it if they change it to 21 2 years later.
I get so confused.
Nice to see you all back again. Welcome John.
4:29 pm on March 15th, 2009 270
Leon, no you can not apply for a KGS (Korean national) job under any circumstances. Prior to filling a KN job from the street, family members are given the opportunity to apply.
No US civilian position is ever posted for family members only. That would violate merit principles.
I don't know if it is me or my computer, but I cannot scroll through this comment thread without locking up. Hence, this is my last comment on this thread.
As regards the curfew it was pretty much beating a dead horse anyway. If ignorance is bliss, I know of one really HAPPY guy here (not you, Leon).
Cheeers!
4:46 pm on March 15th, 2009 271
Yes, this is getting a bit difficult to scroll down.
7:19 pm on March 15th, 2009 272
theotherguy,
John has some idea of what he is talking about. His job is dealing with human resources within USFK and he knowledgeable about what happened and why.
His information is "correct"… from a USFK standpoint… and he can provide good insight into USFK's thinking. He is a team player with USFK leadership.
I greatly disagree with his (and USFK's) interpretation of the situation, however.
As USFK, through Stars & Stripes frequently demonstrates, the "facts" can be spun a lot of different ways.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
And, with USFK, where transparency and due process are almost non-existent, what is ethical and legal is of little importance when accomplishing goals based more on the politics of careerism, enhancement of personal power and dishonest financial gain, than any loyalty to the mission, the United States or its taxpayers.
However unethical, when things go USFK's way, nobody can do much about. The target population is frequently small and the non-targeted population either ignores it as they ride their own gravy train, doesn't care or will angrily rationalize USFK's dishonest actions…
…well, until some dishonest USFK actions affect them… at which point the cycle starts again.
If things do not go USFK's way, they have enough control to make it look as if the unfavorable outcome is intentional…
…and they have a lot of people, such as John, who will blindly argue for them without consideration of ethics, fairness or constitutionality.
"No, we didn't HAVE to stop the curfew. The 'threat' to force protection had passed so we were able to lift it."
I'll post on all this soon.
8:04 pm on March 15th, 2009 273
John, I will just ask you to note the the announcement says it was "converted to a US family member position from a KGS position". Therefore, it is NOT currently a KGS position and IS a "Family Member only" position, which so many profess does not exist. Granted I did not choose the best example of a FM only position.
Also, CPO did not tell me I was kicked to the curb for any other reason than NOT BEING A FAMILY MEMBER on the specific announcement I was referring to.
GI! Hear us. Give unto us the: "USFK Contractors Could Lose Jobs Over Visa Changes II (part deux): The Electric Bugaloo!" thread – so we may continue our lunatic ravings!
8:59 pm on March 15th, 2009 274
Every dependant in Korea should be able to get a job before any contractor does. You so called contractors who are retired service members should understand that. The Government gains more by hiring a family member than any contractor no matter what the experience level. When a spouse is hired it also keeps the service member happy and beyond what any DAC or contractor want's to think, service members are the most important. The reason the curfew thing came up and was such a problem for contractors is because most contractors want to go to the clubs until early morning and then stumble into work and give a subpar performance only to do it agin the next day. Contractors in the States could never get away with the work performances they do here.
9:38 pm on March 15th, 2009 275
Like I said. If USFK was 100% legally correct, then why the ohh sh1t moment with changing it back right after the federal workers union gets involved. Suddenly the command gets a soft heart?
And to tack onto that, they could use administrative action to enforce it on the federal workers, but there is no existing method to enforce it on invited contractors. And "contractors" is a REALLY broad category, are we talking the guys doing technical service work or the guys performing a service for a mission? How about the guys who are brought over for a month or two to engineer a specific installation / implementation on request from the command? Heck lets go further, the guys who are under contract from DISA or some other organization who come here to do various tasks ranging from teaching a specialized system to assist with installations. You somehow going to threaten them all?
The only real authority USFK has is the SOFA visa, which they can't take away "just because". There HAS to be a clause / paragraph to grant them that authority, in the case of the recent ones its not being taken way, its renewal is being denied (I know semantics). The denial is happening over the definition of "ordinary resident" which there IS a paragraph / clause that deals with.
And if "John" is an expert in what happened then I'm the commander of USFK. If he was really an expert then he would of quoted paragraph / clause's within the agreements that authorized USFK to enforce a curfew or other "randomly determined" policies on the off-post / off-duty lives of US civilians. At most he's an E-3/E-4 working as an admin clerk for someone who is semi-important. If he was an actual lawyer / senior representative for USFK, he wouldn't dare risk his job or position by coming onto a publicly readable forum.
And remember the ultimate display that USFK was wrong, was how it QUICKLY reversed the curfew the moment the union got involved, and that it NEVER succeeded in prosecuting or "punishing" a SINGLE contractor even though many of them stay out on the weekends.
11:12 pm on March 15th, 2009 276
Depends. Originally the definition of "ordinary resident" was someone who has been in Korea on an other-then-A3 visa for more then 12 months, OR someone who is in Korea for reasons other then USFK. Its that last part that USFK has been using lately to kick people out, basically you have to prove that your here BECAUSE of USFK and not some other reason.
Yes you can go from GS to "Invited Contractor" without loosing your A3 visa eligibility, as long as there is less then 30 days between leaving the old job and being hired onto the new one. More then 30 days would require you to leave the country first.
USFK isn't changing the reg so much as their choosing to interpret a clause differently then before. The final disqualifier for A3 visa was the whole "stay in the ROK because of a reason other then USFK" part. Before no one really cared about that, they always just assumed that was false and would grant the A3 visa if everything else was ok. Now their trying to pour over your passports and other paperwork LOOKING for a reason to say your here for "reasons other then USFK". Mostly the guys who wives have bought house's or have worked other jobs between employments.
12:06 am on March 16th, 2009 277
Now that I have a moment I'll explain a few things.
You are extremely incorrect in how positions are handled. Depending on the contract they may or may not be a required number of positions. Actually most contracts don't have a set requirement for positions, only a service that needs to be performed. The company can hire as many, or as few as they believe is required to perform the service IAW with SLA (service level agreement). Unless the contract is for a specified number of individuals to provide some form of assistance (usually of the technical type) to an organization.
A company gets a set amount of money for that contract, what they pay their individuals is up to the company. Typically they provide housing pay, but as direct cash as part of your salary. What you (the employee) chooses to do with this money is up to you, you can live in as nice (or as sh1tty) a house as you want. Federal employees are given LQA up to a set cap, but they can not keep the "remainder" so they find the biggest / most expensive house within their cap and live there. Most companies give their employees a percentage of the "state rate" which is set by the state department, usually as a hard number negotiated during the hiring process. They have to pay their people this or no one would take a contract job for any length of time. Federal employees also get full logistical assistance, medical / dental, DoDS schools (which are counted as private), legal assistance, and full transportation. They exist within a set system for management / pay scale. So much that they even have "MOS" like job designators.
Contractors don't have any of that, we get whatever "support" we can negotiate with our employers. Our medical is private insurance, if we want to use any of the base services its at "space available, fully reimbursable cost", which means we have to PAY the military to use the clinic's / hospital. The real cost for federal workers is not at the personal level, its the management, administrative and logistical costs that kill you. Training costs, leave policy, and its damn near impossible to "fire" a federal employee. The most they can do is turn down their extension request and hope they don't get hired into another position. Federal employees can be very lazy and still collect a pay check, do the bare minimum and stay in a job for at least five years. A contractor who doesn't do their job finds themselves without a job rather quickly, if their employer wants to keep the contract that is. There is a financial reason to do the best work possible and to keep the customer (the government) as happy as possible, repeat business is the best business.
Some jobs are better done "in house" by federal employees, but lots of times its better to put out a request for service and get a competitive bid. Less management requirements, less bureaucracy. It takes one to three months to hire someone for a GS position, and that system is the DEFINITION of "good ole boy" due to its archaic screen system. It takes two weeks to hire a contractor, and the longest part of that process is waiting for USFK to approve the 700-19.
Come on, argue that evil nasty "contractors" are taking all your jobs and money. That we're defrauding the government and wasting tax payer dollars. Then step back and remember the USG is who APPROVES the contracts and all the spending requests (if its something not covered by the SLA). Corrupt COR's are not the fault of the contracting companies.
12:24 am on March 16th, 2009 278
YesYesYes is right about the contractor subpar performance here in Korea. I've seen it for myself. The old, gray, scraggly bearded contractor with stank breath, ill fitting clothes and bad B.O. making money for nothing.
12:50 am on March 16th, 2009 279
John,
I believe you know exactly what you are talking about. Due to your HR position in USFK, you were very familiar with the inside workings of what happened.
Unfortunately, you have been drinking Kool-Aid, too.
USFK flavor.
You are part of the Problem as your USFK-centric view has blinded you to what is right and what is wrong… as you mistake it, as many here do when it doesn't apply to them, as "if it wasn't right, USFK wouldn't do it and anybody who says differently is a conspiracy theorist and America-hater!"
Instead of speaking out against unnecessary USFK abuse, you are justifying it and speaking down to those who feel the American military should support the freedoms of American citizens instead of needlessly restricting them.
(…but then we spend billions rebuilding places like Iraq and Gaza while tent cities are growing in America… but maybe that's because of bureaucrats such as yourself.)
Let's discuss the curfew.
Why was it instituted? Force protection? Readiness? Increased job performance from lush contractors? An attempt to control a group of long-haired arrogant civilians who flaunted their freedom from USFK restrictions? I would love to hear your views.
The curfew was marketed as a force protection measure. For many reasons that have been endlessly discussed in the past, this is obviously false… absurdly false. Argue this point, if you dare.
So why was the curfew falsely represented as something it wasn't? You kindly gave us the answer.
"The courts have held that an overseas commander has the ulitimate responsibility for OPSEC and force protection. Absent a compelling reason to do otherwise, the courts will not second guess a commanders action to meet those responsibilities."
So, this "legal" curfew was based entirely upon the lie of "force protection". Then, based on that lie, the courts would not go against the commander. This didn't make the curfew "legal"… it just demonstrated how a big organization could play the system to keep questionable actions from being declared "illegal". Sweet.
I understand a big salary requires team playing… but it's guys with your attitude who dilute the spirit of the Constitution and diminish the freedoms American are granted.
Think about that next time you brag about your patriotism and support for America while you cheer spreading freedom to the world.
So, just because something was done and rationalized with no consequence, doesn't make it right.
John, you are are doing the best job possible of selling the USFK line that everything was ethical, legal and by the book.
But we both know it wasn't.
Let's take a further look.
"I seriously doubt the Dept. of Justice would have defended USFK had the CDR lacked authority to impose the curfew."
Don't be so sure. We are talking about the same DoJ that had no problem with torture, indefinite confinement, warrantless wiretapping, etc. Of course, this culture of government-over-citizens legal abuse didn't originate in USFK but they did take advantage of it… and you defend it. Nice.
"Unless there is a law prohibiting an action, the action is by definition legal."
Well, you are right about that.
I hereby proclaim that the USFK commander must decorate his office with glittery unicorn and butterfly stickers in pink and purple pastels and never be seen in public again without his candy cane-striped thigh-high stockings.
Now explain why my perfectly legal declaration does not have to be followed.
Would you it is because there is no law which specifically gives me the power to control the actions of others in this way… and there are laws which prohibit me from trying to force my will on others?
Interestingly, this exact explanation applies to the USFK curfew.
While the commander has undisputed authority over actions on military installations, does he have any real legal authority over the actions of civilian Americans on Korean soil?
Let's see.
"Let's say the MPs observe a civilian off post after curfew (or maybe in an off limits prostitution bar). You are right that they have no authority over civilians in that situation. What they do is have the KNP officer that accompanies them ask to see your ID."
This is one of many absolute lies perpetuated by USFK on the clueless and uninformed. That a man in your position does not understand the legal reality of this situation explains a lot. Apparently, the real evil is above your pay grade. Only your ignorance affects us.
As you pointed out, MP/SPs have NO authority off post/base. Even if you are in the military, you can tell them beat it. If they can't cow you into fessing up on your own, they can do nothing… except remember your face and rightfully hammer you when you enter the main gate.
But here is the problem. A KNP officer also has NO AUTHORITY to check IDs without probable cause of a crime being committed. An American "work rule" is not probable cause. You can tell him to beat it, too.
Korea still remembers its police state days and isn't big on "your papers, please" mentality." American bureaucrats and politicians certainly love it, though. It flies because of guys like you, Manchurian Bureaucrat.
This isn't to say cowed and uninformed GIs and contractors weren't victims of illegal actions by USFK working with local KNP who were willing to subvert Korean law to play ball… as nobody would complain and, if they did, nobody would listen. It happened. But it wasn't legal and it wasn't right.
Which leads to…
"USFK does not make laws. They are called work rules. And guess what, employees are expected to obey work rules or suffer the consequences"
Ahhhh… the story changes. Now, it isn't about the law… it is about the "rules".
Bureaucrats, such as yourself, love them because "rules" require much less debate, much less publicity and give incredible power without much oversight or accountability… and, if they get successfully challenged, no problem… make a new rule and let the challengers go through the hassle and expense of challenging it. Taxpayers cover the endless defense… many times, while the rule stays in place.
Can "work rules" of this magnitude be made up on the fly or do they have to be written into the contract? That would be neat if they could… well, neat for those in power.
As American becomes a Nation of Rules rather than a Nation of Laws… where the law is to follow the rule devised by unelected bureaucrats… it is only natural that organizations, such as USFK, jump on the Obtain More Power Through More Rules Bandwagon.
And guys like you, who have a bit of power, a close relationship with USFK leadership and a first-class ticket on the USFK Gravy Train, will do everything you can to support and excuse these "rules"… including representing arbitrary rules as "legal" actions.
Nobody should kid themselves. USFK is perfectly willing to break the law when they can get by with it.
And the peninsula is filled with justifiers and rationalizers such as yourself which enable this to happen.
John, do what you know is right. Keep your job, support the system and work hard to quietly change it for the better from within.
Don't try to polish a turd and sell it as a gold nugget.
People are lazy, apathetic and self-centered… but not that stupid.
8:57 am on March 16th, 2009 280
Too bad this has come to people telling other people what they think and do. It was a good thread with a good purpose. The people we are trying to help are not USFK haters.
Why is there a slam on the age of people performing a job? What is the problem with the way people spend their off duty time? By helping to protect American interests overseas, they are contributing, in a big way. Because these highly experienced Americans choose or desire to work in Korea should not be a negative facet to thier relationship with the U.S., or USFK. Not paying taxes is a federal stance. They still pay medicare and social security.
On that side of the coin, why should anyone pay for DoDDs tuition? It would be cheaper to pay taxes and have your child attend an American english speaking school on base for little or no charge. We would prefer to have our children protected and instructed by Americans.
This can go on and on.
We hope this thread gets the main posts reposted in a new thread to cut down on the load time. It is getting to long.
For those of you that tend to throw everyone in the same pot, and speak of all the negative things instead of being proactive, get a grip. Everyone has the right to present an argument, but it should be followed with a possible solution if you want to be heard.
We definetly appreciate all the input and the fact that this thread is alive, but the above is just our 2 cents.
Thanks to everyone, even the ones that purely post to complain about people that are attempting to correct a wrong, you help keep this thread on top.
Anyone have any new articles we can post on http://www.USFKSOFA.com? We would like to hear from you. We couldnt get the firefox issue corrected, but havent given up.
10:06 am on March 16th, 2009 281
I will agree with CH and TOG,
The curfew didnt come into effect until AFTER 9/11…before that, there was none. As CH stated the reasons for it were not correct, also those force protection measures were imposed on Korean businesses as well. Backpacks were not allowed, you could not park your car in front of business, barriers were set up and a whole lot of other things came into play. The curfew only applied to USFK not the Embassy or any other American citizen. During exercises Commander's were imposing a no drinking rule thru out the exercise. Not only did limited Americans, it also limited Korean citizens….It went to far.
TOG
DAC's can use Medical/Dental facilities, but it's space available and you have to pay the American rate…not the Korean rate. LQA is actual cost, not the maximum available….it looks that way because the Koreans will learn your grade and go by the maximum rate for that grade. You really don't have much of a choice, because it's the only game in town and they know it.
10:12 am on March 16th, 2009 282
Fact is we do know why is was put into effect because USFK has stated it. Officially its the "Force Protection" because we all know terrorists only do stuff between the hours of 0000-0500 on weekdays and 0100-0500 (now 0300-0500) on weekends. Yeah ok get real.
The real reason has to do with pre-9-11 incidents of "off post misconduct", basically soldiers getting into trouble out side the gates. Shortly after 9-11 the curfew was implemented due to heightened alert posture the US military took. A year later the USFK command noticed something… the number of off post incidents plummeted, almost completely gone. Also remember that those two girls were ran over, which caused the anti-us-military sentiment in the ROK to go wild. Put those two together and it makes sense for USFK to want to keep its troopers safe "on base" during the times when young people drink and party (and therefor are most vulnerable to staged fights and political stunts). It helped USFK present a positive face to the Korean media / government. Now the discussion of "forced morality" and "morality laws" is not within the scope here, but its an interesting sidebar. I for one am against all forms of "forced morality" due to my belief that morality must be a choice for it to mean anything.
"Just about every contractor I meet is pathetic, old, worn out, no life or substance what so ever."
Wow talk about some old-school 1950's hating going on. Sounds like your assigned up north in 2ID land. You know you just described most of the federal employees right? Most of the older crowd here is a GS/NSPS because of the pension and job security / stability. And kindly please describe how I'm in my mid-20s, and most of my peers are upper twenties to lower 30's (IT geeks tend to leave the military early rather then retire). There are a few older retiree's, I guess you like calling someone who has done the 20+ years of active service and retired a looser? Makes me think, what do you plan to do when YOU reach 20 years in the service?
And its nothing to do about fear, its about money. The pay over here is really good compared to the US, mostly due to Americans not wanting to work overseas. Tack the foreign earned income exemption and that makes the first $85,000 we earn exempt from federal income taxes (although we still pay medicare / FICA / social security, and its still reported to the IRS).
Really you just sound like a hater, some SPC who is jealous and hates his life. Here is my advice, learn and become a master of a technical skill, get the required certifications and schooling to be competitive in that skill. Maintain an active US security clearance of at least Secret (but TS/SCI would be ideal). Then a year and a half from your ETS time start planning your transition, save up at least 60 (but you want 90) days of leave as a cushion. Transition out and hopefully if you've done your homework and planed it right, you can walk right into a job, either federal or as a contractor.
Three things they look for are,
#1 Professional certification / experience.
#2 Active US security clearance
#3 Honorably discharge from a military service (not required but they really like the ex-military guys).
Stop passing around the hatorade for once.
10:19 am on March 16th, 2009 283
Out here I've seen many many federal employees live in 50+ pyong apartments that are 2,500,000 won a month.
And your completely correct, its "at cost" up to a maximum. Just like how the military gets theirs. If you live in a 1,400,000 won a month 42 pyong then they'll give you that exact amount. If you live in a 2,500,000 pyong 58 pyong two floor castle, then they'll give you that too. In Seoul its 4,000,000+ a month cap (depending on won rate). Basically there is no reason / incentive for the GS/NSPS employee to live in a smaller / more affordable place. They just find the exact place they want, as big as they want and that is that. I know many federal employees that wish they could pocket the difference and live in a smaller place, but that is a different story. Contractors are a percentage based on the state rate, usually 60-80%.
10:58 am on March 16th, 2009 284
Dear YESYESYES whatever, I am sincerely sorry that a contractor stole your spouse, or did you and left you, or stole your job, or stole your downtown boyfriend or girlfriend, or whatever causes your rage. Maybe it's jealousy over pay, maybe they dissed you once. You need counseling, now.
First, there are systems that contractors maintain that can not be maintained by anyone else. This may be by design, or it may be because of the high turnover rate, or lack of funding for military or civilian training.
Additionally, a lot of units like contractors because you can hire NOW instead of after a 5 year manpower study and implementation plan. Plus, if you don't like your contractors you can rebid the contract AT ANY TIME. The government can unilaterally cancel a contract for convenience just about anytime it wants. And, you can upsize or downsize a contract based on changing needs. These are great advantages over the GS system.
MOST contractors get less than their GS counterparts for housing. And, since contractors keep any extra, they are more apt to live in a 1,000,000 won apartment than the 3,000,000 won city life buildings.
You, and many others, are clearly just hapless haters. If you have bad contractors then do something about it. Get it re-bid, get military or GS support, or do SOMETHING; other than froth at the mouth helplessly. I suspect you are impotent to make any change though, and therefore harbor this rage.
For all other normal people: The government SHOULD rebid contract every few years. Some of these decade long contracts are way over priced, as are the people performing the function. Complacency does subvert the government getting the best value at times.
11:34 am on March 16th, 2009 285
DELETED BY MODERATOR: Off topic personal attack
12:07 pm on March 16th, 2009 286
Hahahahaha
Seriously you just described most of the GS workers I know. And now I know your just a poser and a troll. Cause the older crowd doesn't goto the clubs, they goto the little bars. Up north its all juicy bars anyway, but when you get to Seoul and under there are lots of business bars that don't have juicy's in them, that or the booking clubs.
12:23 pm on March 16th, 2009 287
Yes those are the advantages of contractors over federal employees / military. Its also why the married folk tend to find GS jobs, job stability becomes very important when you have a wife and two kids to worry about.
As for the special systems, most of that is just the specialized training / experience required. The US Army only has ONE mos, 25B (used to be 74B) that handles ALL IT. I know because I used to be one when I was in the service. So for specialized systems, its a crap shoot on whether the 25B is going to be a super smart IT geek, or a not-so-smart PT stud. And as the rank goes up the chances of getting the IT geek become less and less due to attrition and competition from…. you guessed it the private sector (including contract companies).
The GS/NSPS system only has a single "job identifier" referring to IT, its 2210 and comes with a +5K a year "special skills bonus". The GS system is based on resume-ex so hiring a skilled technician is a bit more likely, but still if you get a slug then replacing them can take YEARS (you have to wait for them to screw up hard core, or find another job). These guys really get on my nerves because they feel entitled to those positions and never really do any work.
As for contracts being rebid, they ARE. Every few years a contract must be rebid, its a federal law. Now there are a few catches, one is that an incumbent contract holder is more likely to win the bid due to the fact that they've been doing the job for years and are already experienced with it. Also the reason you keep seeing the same contractors over and over again is that when a company underbids a contract from another company (it happens), they tend to hire most of the SAME people. Its cheaper because they don't have to train or find new technicians with security clearances (that is VERY hard to find by the way). But they tend to get new upper management, and sometimes new middle management depending on how much change their going to be doing.
What people keep forgetting is that there is a finite pool of skilled / qualified technicians WITH SECURITY CLEARANCES here in Korea. Most skilled technicians from the US will NOT want to work overseas, especially if they already have a family / life in the states. So companies tend to fight over the same people, and yes its over fighting over who can hire who for different contracts.
Thankfully I happen to enjoy living in Korea, the culture and food is beyond awesome. I enjoy being a few hours flight from the rest of Asia, like Japan, China, Thailand, Philippines, and Australia (awesome place to visit). Learning the local language enough to get around and explore was probably the hardest thing, but once you overcome that you really get to love this place.
1:57 pm on March 16th, 2009 288
A quick word on the situation at the time of the curfew.
These are hardly all the points… but they are the quick and easy ones for anyone indoctrinated enough to believe force protection was the reason for the curfew.
1. A motivated terrorists can attack before midnight, too. So can an unmotivated one. So can you.
2. A packed, glass-fronted McDonalds filled with officers (sometimes in flight suits), their families and TCN factory workers with backpacks at 6pm, make just as good of target as a run-down club with a doorman, a concrete barrier, a no bag policy, 4 ratty girls and a couple of contractors at 2am.
3. The American embassy issued no warnings for American citizens living in Korea nor did they change the security stance for their own personnel at the time.
4. USFK backed down once the lawsuits started.
Had there been a coordinated, wide-reaching policy of force protection that was obviously making a multi-faceted effort to protect USFK personnel, most (all?) contractors would have simply trusted USFK's judgment and gone along with the program.
Instead, there was a "rule" that targeted only contractors and seemed to have little relationship to true force protection.
Who can blame them for being skeptical and angry… and untrusting of any future USFK actions.
…and…
Don't confuse the contractor curfew with the force protection farce that went into effect after 9/11. They were different events at different times with different motivations. In fact, while the base was locked down in the weeks after 9/11, contractors were in heaven. The girls were getting hungry with no end in sight… and they would do anything for a pizza.
Also…
yesyesyes,
…who my software says is "I would rather be a DAC"…
I'm trying to think how this curfew could make contractors less pathetic, less old, less worn out and give them more life or substance.
Eventually, there will be a perfect time for us to discuss the many shortcomings of contractors.
Now, you are being part of the USFK Problem that I often speak of. You attempt to deflect attention away from USFK and you label anyone who complains about unjust or illegal actions a "USFK hater".
All the problems you troll about are best dealt with in other ways.
Random SOFA denial and arbitrary curfews are a net loss for USFK's completion of the mission and efficient financial management.
2:01 pm on March 16th, 2009 289
LOL, yesyesyes you have serious issues. First, I'm under 40 and have hair and have been a contractor for a few years. Second, I am no more a piece of dung than you are, all people see themselves as good. You seem to think you are above all contractors, when your language and attitude clearly show you are no better than most. I had a good military record including having the honor of being able to call myself a veteran (obviously I didn't retire, but I'm not sure you could do the math). I did have a Harley, loved it, need another one. It's what you do with your TAX free pay, hater.
But, the deal is, while I tried to be reasonable and debate the merits of contractors, you have stuck with the name calling and put downs. It's what trolls like you do when you have no arguement. You just hate. Now, go see the counselor. Seriously.
2:08 pm on March 16th, 2009 290
I would love to see a policy set in place where no one could spend more than 3 consecutive years in Korea no matter what their status and then couldn't return for 3 years. You can give excuses like "My wife and kids are Korean" or "I'm here for the food and culture" etc… Yea right, stop blowing smoke you pale face loser. The real reason the majority of contractors and GS are here is because they were not acceptable in their own society. Here, they are around people just as pathetic as themselves so they feel a false sense of worth. Why would anyone want to stay in Korea for 15, 20 or more years at a time unless they feel out of place in the U.S.? The answer to that is they wouldn't. If these guys could date in the States or fit into a croud they wouldn't stay here that long, it is beyond logic to think otherwise. You can throw out the most common excuses I have heard for staying here but unless you are Korean-American, you are out of place being in this country that long. As a matter of fact the only GS or Contract people I meet that are normal are those that are Korean-American because their reasons for being here don't involve being something else, an alter ego if you will. To you bozoz who keep making excuses for why you stay here so long, don't, those of us that don't make Korea our life can see right through you.
2:13 pm on March 16th, 2009 291
So is it the same as people that stay in Germany? Or anywhere else in the world?
My two reasons are: It aint that bad especially considering the money, and it's close to the south Pacific islands which I love, all the way from Taiwan to Guam to Thailand and in-between. Great weather, good living. Sure I could work in the states and wind up barely being able to live on retirement there. Or I could go to Guam, Saipan, Northern Marianas, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, and on and on. All of those places have great weather, great views, and are easy on the wallet. It's the same reason people live in Florida, and an ever increasing population choosing Mexico. Wake up, the U.S. is the greatest country in the world, but the key is "in the world". Go see some with your eyes instead of focusing on hating those that choose to do just that.
2:28 pm on March 16th, 2009 292
Another poor excuse. I have worked in Germany, Japan, Italy and Korea and save no more money in any of those places than I do in the States. I like the travel as much as the next person but my point of the last post was people who stay in Korea for 10, 15, 20 years at a time do it for one reason only, and I don't need to point that reason out again. How many Women, that aren't Korean-American, do you know that stay here that long? I know women that are GS and contractors but the percentage of those that will stay here past 3 years is few and far between because they are able to move somewhere else and cope. There is nothing dumber than seeing a GS or Contractor who tries to prove how Korean they are. People imigrate to the U.S. to live as citezens, Americans don't imograte to Korea but yet you see these people all the time who come into a room and start talking thier broken Korean to a KGS employee and then, when they leave, she turns and says how creepy the guy is. If you think living is being used and someday when you get old finding out just how dtupid you were then more power to you my friend.
3:32 pm on March 16th, 2009 293
DELETED BY MODERATOR: Off Topic Personal Attack
2:53 pm on March 16th, 2009 294
You really are full of hate. Now you don't want people fitting in? And I'm sure you are so much better than those that try to speak Korean? Or are we finally figuring out you are Korean and hate Americans? So the real bottom line is you don't want Americans in Korea? Very confusing.
Call 738-7505 and ask for a counselor.
3:11 pm on March 16th, 2009 295
You had the number readily available to talk to a counselor, wow great "gotcha" on that one bud. Remind me not to use that comeback anytime soon. I like everywhere I visit but am always able to remember my roots, unlike some people.
3:28 pm on March 16th, 2009 296
Didnt you mean,"We appreciate the services of our contractors and recognize they are a valuable asset to our security efforts at home and abroad. However, we are limited by and must adhere to our legal agreements with the host nation and the constraints of our respective laws. I strongly recommend that Mr. work directly with his employer to develop the most suitable and appropriate solution."
4:52 pm on March 16th, 2009 297
Idiot…it's called google and the internet. DUH!
5:00 pm on March 16th, 2009 298
Yea, you stick with that story.
6:34 pm on March 16th, 2009 299
DELETED BY MODERATOR: Off topic personal attack
5:35 pm on March 16th, 2009 300
Bottom line. The contractors that lost their jobs due to being ordinarily resident aren't getting their jobs back. It's rare that contractors don't get what they want but this is one of those cases. Live with it and move on. And take a bath, shave, and wear decent clothes for once.
9:32 pm on March 16th, 2009 301
Hmmm YYY's other account?
As for them getting jobs back… that is a BIIIIIG "maybe". My company only lost two (out of 60+) on our contract, and their working on resetting their SOFA status. Meaning they gave them a job in the US.
Easiest way to sidestep the "ordinary resident because you intend to live in Korea reguardless of USFK" line is to maintain a residence in the US. Wife / Kids / Family doesn't matter, as long as you have a home in the states somewhere, and can prove your maintaining it, then you don't qualify as an ordinary resident. Its how quite a few of our guys stayed here once they found out the rules, CCK really tried hard to keep people in the dark.
11:17 pm on March 16th, 2009 302
Attention please. I am looking for employment in Korea. I have 4 years in the military. Where are some good places to start looking for employment. Any information would be great. I can be reached at ikufc@yahoo.com Please only serious emails.
5:21 am on March 17th, 2009 303
Its about being "ordinarily resident in the United States".
A lot of us thought we proved that also. Household goods in the states, CC bills to the home address, vehicle registration. All that.
CCK says no. Please dont use terms like "only 2%" any number is too high. Each one is a career. It doesnt lessen the effects on those families that are now thrown out so CCK can meet the numbers. 1 or 2 from each company seems to be the rule. Just so people are well aware they are around and you can be thankful you passed. (yes, we know, hundreds of people passed that shouldnt have passed).
And I heard the captain is now a major.
I cant get this thread to load anymore.
10:26 am on March 17th, 2009 304
Umm dude … I didn't use the term "2%" I said only two out of my companies 60 (ish) that are working on the same contract at myself. You need to chill out, take a breath and stop drinking the koolaid.
We're working to get those guys brought back over, but they have to establish residency in the US first. Once that happens we can reapply them for SOFA status as being brought from the US, since we kinda ARE bringing them from the US.
I agree that what CCK did was retarded and beyond comprehension, but remember in the end its just office working processing paperwork. Its not personal (from their point of view), so chances are pretty good if its a fresh set of paperwork that it'll get approved.
5:40 pm on March 17th, 2009 305
TOG….100% my bad on that. I had a few comments going, and really messed it up. I am with you. I meant it as a comment to another comment about how 50 (the supposed 2%) is a small number. My appologies it came out like that. Somehow my comments merged.
I didnt mean for it to appear I was quoting you. It shouldnt have even been under your comment. I understand your stance on this, and I know you wouldnt make any number seem like an insignificant sum. Unlike some, you still have a human element, even if you disagree.
Cheers,
Ed
It took me 10 minutes to get down to this so I can post. Its dragging real hard.
1:08 pm on March 18th, 2009 306
Try using firefox. It scrolls no problem.
2:33 pm on March 18th, 2009 307
If you are having problems loading this page it is because postings with a large number of comments is causing problems with earlier versions of Internet Explorer. This thread loads fine on Firefox but I have also created a page over at the ROK Drop Forums for this issue as well:
http://rokdrop.com/forums/forum.php?id=18
You can post on this issue over there as well without any concern for the Internet Explorer issue. I am still trying to troubleshoot this issue, but truthfully right now I am extremely busy and haven't had much time to figure it out.
Sorry for the inconvenience everyone.
1:09 pm on March 23rd, 2009 308
A Quick Update.
John,
Back on post 253 I made several statements about the curfew I had hoped you would comment on.
At the very least, I had hoped also to be called "ignorant" or "obtuse" for suggesting the curfew wasn't as "legal" as USFK (and their minions) would have liked us to believe.
Please feel free to tell me where my reasoning went wrong.
4:04 pm on March 23rd, 2009 309
another bullet from back in December….
CIVILIAN PERSONNEL ADVISORY CENTER (CPAC)
Issue 1: Employment for Americans (Family Member focus group 28 Oct 08)
Suspense Date: 13 Dec 08
Family Members feel that there isn’t enough employment opportunities for Americans on the various Army Camps.
Recommendation:
(1) Provide more opportunities for American civilian employment.
(2) Advertise better what American employment positions are available on all Camps.
Response: This issue is very timely. The Civilian Human Resources Agency-Korea (CHRA) is a member of GEN Sharp's Operational Planning Team (OPT) working the issue of expanding family member employment opportunities and information. The OPT encompasses all of GEN Sharp's area of responsibility to include the other armed services on the peninsula. Below is the purpose, desired outcome and end state.
PURPOSE: To review employment opportunities for family members in Korea and provide recommendations how to improve their access to employment
DESIRED OUTCOME: Implement improvements to existing employment assistance programs in USFK to meet projected increases in demand for family member employment. Identify measures the command can take to ensure spouses are given the maximum opportunity for employment while in Korea.
END STATE: Family members have access to a robust, and synchronized USFK employment assistance program that connects them to federal, contractor and off-post employment opportunities. Program oversight is maintained by a USFK Well-Being or Human Resources Council.
We anticipate that a number improvements will come from these efforts and will help publicize them once approved for implementation.
Status: Active (1st Qtr FY 09)
8:30 am on March 26th, 2009 310
I think this will be going again next week. Many, many people are on the extension.
9:24 pm on March 30th, 2009 311
Hey, GI…
This thread died.
It was not due to lack of interest in the situation of contractors. It was not due to lack of interest in a pattern of USFK behavior that might show insight into future actions. It was not due to a lack of interest in the varied interpretations of regulations.
It was due to incredible interest resulting in a record volume of comments which made reading and responding cumbersome, bordering on impossible…
…coupled with the miserable Reply feature which results in unnoticed replies and, if a comment was known to have been made, requires tediously going back through past posts in hopes of finding it.
Despite repeated requests, you let down a lot of people because you never made a “USFK Contractors Could Lose Jobs Over Visa Changes Part II”.
If not for us, GI, please do it for the children.
10:24 pm on March 30th, 2009 312
I just clicked on the link and it took around a second or so to load.
The only time I've ever heard of anyone having a hard time opening this thread is when they were using there work (gov't) computer at the office.
If you use blockquote, you can respond in the same manner I am responding in this post. It allows you to quote the text you want to quote, and it shows up as the newest post.
1:11 pm on March 31st, 2009 313
Chickenhead,
I already made an entire forum for this topic over at the ROK Drop Forums where everyone can post away on if they are having problems loading this thread:
http://rokdrop.com/forums/forum.php?id=18
2:31 pm on December 2nd, 2010 314
We are interesting to work with you.
I am Dilan from Sri Lanka. We have clients to migrate to Italy,Canada ,New Zealand & Australia. They are seeking study visa, work permit, and visit visas. We go through web search and we find your web site and mailing address. Could you please send me a contact details. Please send me the details what are the visa category you are doing. What are the countries for you are offering Visas. what is the cost, What is the time period it will take to complete, and what are the documents you are requiring, once we will come for the arrangement we can give you 10 to 20 clients for group and we can give you 2 to 3 groups for a month.And we doing this business since fifteen years. We are ready to deal with you. If it is possible please reply me as soon as possible.
waiting your reply
Thank You.
Dilan.
Company- Overseas Study Center. Sri lanka
Address- 28/2/A, Galle Road, Colombo-6 Sri Lanka .
Contact-
0094772484401
0094772484402
0094114552378
Skype ID : dilanravi
Email-
jeansasi@yahoo.co.in
jeansasimigrationvisa@yahoo.com
11:22 pm on December 2nd, 2010 315
Say, there, Dilan,
Do you suppose you could supply some fresh Sri Lankan teenage boys to perform “domestic duties”?
We would like 3 well-mannered, slightly effeminate ones with clear skin in assorted shades. Make sure they have good teeth and as little body hair as possible.
Also, we would like one jolly little fat one dressed in a sailor suit.
I look forward to your reply and await your reasonable quote.
10:02 pm on January 19th, 2012 316
Not all contractors are bad, they are of some utility in some cases. However some comments above are true. If you don’t have SOFA live without it. Stop taking those trips to PI and you will live well. Some of these same guys have established such a corrupt network in South Korea that is not funny. This is just the bubble correcting itself. What you sow you also reap. You have tried to stop many from living decently, by your corrupt actions as part the systems there. Some foolish commanders even listen to you in the jobs you take. All military police in South Korea should go home. You are one of the most corrupt of the networks. If you did something corrupt there, know that it will follow you except you repent. You laugh when some of your own comrades fail to do finagle the system the way you do. You use a corrupt code of silence that has hurt many and help you to be rotten. The U.S. does not need ambassadors of America like this in South Korea. These guys really need background checks, instead of doing check on others.