By I find people like this to be pathetic:
For longtime U.S. expatriates like me — someone far more accustomed to being targeted over unpopular policies, for having my very Americanness publicly assailed — it feels like an extraordinary turnabout.
Like a long journey over a very bumpy road has abruptly come to an end. (…)
When you’re an American abroad, you can quickly become a whipping post. Regardless of your political affiliation, if you happen to be living and working overseas at a time when the United States has antagonized much of the world, you get a lot of grief.
You can find yourself pressed to be some kind of apologist for Washington. And you can wind up feeling ashamed and alone.
I’ll never forget a ride in a taxi in Vienna when the world was waking up to the abuses wrought by U.S. troops at the detention center for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
My driver, a Muslim, was indignant. “You are American, yes?” he asked in that accusatory tone so familiar to many expats.
“Uh, no, Canadian,” I said.
And it wasn’t the first time I fudged where I was from. I speak three foreign languages, so I have a bit of flexibility when it comes to faking. At various times, I’ve been a German in Serbia, a Frenchman in Turkey, a Dutchman in Austria.
I’m not proud of it. But when you’re far from home, and you’re feeling cornered, you develop what you come to believe are survival skills. [Associated Press]
Not once in my life have I been ashamed to be American like this writer William J. Kole from the AP has been. I find Americans passing themselves off as other nationalities pathetic. I was proud to be an American no matter who the President is. I have taken grief overseas for being American but I have never pretended to be another nationality. I am very up front about who I am.
For example I was in Adelaide, Australia on a joint training assignment and an Australian at the airport comes up to me when he heard my American accent buying a newspaper and started heckling me about Bush, Abu Graib, and Gitmo. First I laid into him about how rude he was to assume that I supported what happened there simply because of my American accent. I then unloaded on him by telling him what happened at Abu Graib and Gitmo were isolated incidents that don’t even compare to the past and current treatment of Aboriginal Australians who as early as 1967 were not even considered citizens and instead were classified as fauna in Australia. Today aborigines live 20 years less then other Australians and the UN classifies their quality of life as second worse on the planet.
I then continue to unload on him about how Australians had their own Gitmo by locking up illegal immigrants in a remote detention facility that had many more people in it then Gitmo ever did. The Woomera detention facility was criticized for human rights abuses and featured multiple riots and escape attempts before it was finally shut down. This guy didn’t have anything to say after I made my scene at the Adelaide Airport.
Could you imagine if random Americans started heckling Australians because of things such as the couple of issues I mentioned? It would be ridiculous to do such thing because the Australian issues I mentioned just like Abu Graib and Gitmo are far more complex then political partisans lead people to believe. To be fair, Australia is not the only place I have such a thing happen; I have had similar spats with snotty Europeans as well. However, I have spent time in multiple Asian countries and not once did I have similar incidents happen for whatever reason which I appreciated.
Bottom line is that you should not be ashamed to be an American no matter who the President is. Your loyalty to America shouldn’t be based solely on your political affiliation or what global public opinion of America is at the moment. If it is then maybe you should move to Canada.
5:47 am on November 6th, 2008 1
So far 100% of voters here have said “Yes, I have impersonated another nationality”.
6:17 am on November 6th, 2008 2
Check again; the tally is 4-No, 2-Yes. Can one be certain that only US citizens are voting?
7:47 am on November 6th, 2008 3
There is no way to know for sure what nationalities are voting so take it for what it is worth.
8:02 am on November 6th, 2008 4
True. I agree with the subject of this thread. But let me inject the flip side of it. How many times and in how many places in the last couple of years have we heard Americans accuse other Americans of being un-American or unpatriotic if they dared criticize the policies of the administration in office?
As recently as a week and half ago, we heard a state governor and candidate for vice president talk about she enjoyed being with ‘real’ Americans.
8:41 am on November 6th, 2008 5
I in no way agree with the real American comment made by Palin and that should be an indication that Americans in general didn’t agree with her comment either considering her ticket lost overwhelmingly.
As far as the unpatriotic comments they come from political partisans on the far right which are easily matched by the hate comments coming from the American far left. It is all rhetoric best ignored.
9:12 am on November 6th, 2008 6
Who are you to tell other Americans what to do?
10:12 am on November 6th, 2008 7
I’ve never lied about my nationality, but that doesn’t mean I can’t sympathize with those who do. I do love my country, but I think we deserve a lot of the criticism we’ve been getting -not just for the past eight years, but for decades. And whether or not there are other countries with much to be ashamed of has no bearing on our worth. Many of our actions recently have violated our own sense of morality and that is what should shame us most.
10:23 am on November 6th, 2008 8
I’d have to agree with GI Korea here — I’ve been in touchy situations, but I’ve never lied about who I am. I think that’s cheap. It’s like I wouldn’t sit around a table full of racists and laugh with them about black people, even if they didn’t know I was black, or people who beat up on Christians in conversation. I feel like you gotta be who you are, no matter what.
Now, if a terrorist put a gun to your head in a plane and asked, “Are you Canadian or American?” I’m gonna be Canadian, of course. Now THAT’S “survival skills.” Barring that, however, if it’s just you feeling uncomfortable in a taxi, or some social situation — sorry, but you’re being lame to lie. That’s just how I feel.
I’m not bullying people or questioning their patriotism, but if you were my friend and I saw you do that, I’d be disappointed in you, just as if I found myself doing that, I’d be disappointed in myself. If you don’t like hearing that, well, don’t make the public confession then, as if you’re expecting everyone to pat you on the back and agree with you.
Especially on something that clearly is going to involve lots of people thinking exactly what I think. It’s like admitting that you once plagiarized a paper but never got caught. Sure, it’s cool you can admit it, and I’m glad maybe you don’t do such a thing as a rule, but I would still think less of you for having done it.
We’re talking about things as basic as moral courage or dishonesty, those are some pretty close-to-the-heart issues. Don’t expect everyone to pat you on the back and understand you, since those things are very, very over-the-lines of how people choose to define themselves. If it’s not for you — cool. It is for me.
Just don’t expect kudos just for being all confessional with it.
10:27 am on November 6th, 2008 9
Oh come on.
You are encouraged by EUSA to lie about your nationality. They would never phrase it that way, but you’re discouraged from wearing clothes identifying your nationality and going to places frequented by “Americans”. This is under the guise of force protection from terrorists, but its really to prevent Koreans the inconvenience of being reminded that they still require an American military presence. Also, you’re flat out banned from going to areas of Korea where a riot, er, “protest” is likely to spontaneously erupt should an American be detected walking down the street.
Anyone who has been to Korea and claims they’ve never said they were Canadian out in public is lying through their teeth.
10:57 am on November 6th, 2008 10
I’ve never lied about my nationality either, but I wouldn’t look down on anyone who did in order to avoid some stranger who is upset about the state of affairs(with reason) laying into you over something you can do nothing about, regardless of your own political beliefs.
The way Bush has treated the international community is awful…Guantanamo, waterboarding, an unpopular invasion leading to things like civilian casualties and Abu Ghraib. People around the world are really mad and disgusted with those policies…along with many Americans.
When I was traveling during the Bush presidency, I got really tired of being associated with Bush. I found myself unwillingly involved in discussions defending his policies and America. I just started playing dumb or being apolitical.
America can and must do a better job than Bush. Then you don’t have to cringe or panic when the natural and inevitable “Where are you from?” question comes up.
11:01 am on November 6th, 2008 11
Hey, this attitude of being ashamed to be an American was uttered by our own incoming First Lady, so American self-loathing goes all the way to the top today. Personally, I find it repugnant, but I was part of the 46% crowd this past Tuesday.
11:28 am on November 6th, 2008 12
I wonder how many people want refunds for their “I’m not American” T-shirts.
3:42 pm on November 6th, 2008 13
I read that yesterday and nearly threw up! I spent a lot of time in the Middle East just before the Iraq War (redux), and as soon as people realized that I was an American I’d get hammered with questions about Bush’s intentions, like I really knew.
So, I understand where the guy is coming from, but even so, to deny who he is and where he’s from is truly pathetic imo.
3:48 pm on November 6th, 2008 14
And Former1HBCTJoe, I have ten years in Korea and have never once even contemplated telling someone I was anything other than what I am: an American. If people truly do that on a regular basis, that really just shocks the shee-it out of me.
5:17 pm on November 6th, 2008 15
# 14 +1
If anyone other than a fellow American brings up the topic of U.S. politics or policies with me, I just tell them that, just like them, myself and many other Americans don’t always agree with the actions our government takes, so don’t get up in my grill because of something the U.S. Govt. did
6:52 pm on November 6th, 2008 16
If some sort of hypothetical situation where you or your loved ones were in danger should your nationality be discovered, then sure, lie. Otherwise, it’s a bad move.
Most intelligent people can distinguish between an individual and their government. I’ve been criticized personally by others for U.S. foreign policy — usually by people who drink Coke and wear Levi’s. When they do, I just ask them if they would like to be judged based on the policies of their own government. That usually has the desired effect.
6:58 pm on November 6th, 2008 17
I have to admit I’ve been in a few touchy situations in north and east Africa (in 2005-2006) were, if asked, I would not have admitted to being an American.
7:27 pm on November 6th, 2008 18
Metro- You an American?
7:39 pm on November 6th, 2008 19
B/S!
When faced by terrorist, or any other A-hole threatening either you or your family (…and believe me, I have been there defending my family from drug-crazed criminals in the PI), and you capitulate for the sake of your own cowardly skin, then you deserve whatever fate befalls you.
It is better to die on your feet like a Man, than live on your knees like a dog!
7:40 pm on November 6th, 2008 20
I never in my life pretended to be anything but who I was. I spent 13 years overseas (23 different countries) and have had many many discussions with the local people over american policy, mostly friendly. However I have also not been allowed to enter bars or clubs on several occasions in different countries because I was American. Mostly in Japan, but also unwelcomed in France and Italy as well. I found it humorous at the time. But as I grew older, (and wiser), I found most of the countries I visited (lived in) were worse offenders than the US, yet blatently hid the fact or denied the same situations even existed in their own country. As the years have gone by, I have watched each of those 23 countries go through the same agony of recognizing their predujices and shortcomings. The United States and the American people were only leading the way for others. So I have gained the satisfaction that comes with a country being a leader in the world. It often affects my thinking on where we are today and where the world is headed. The United States is a moral leader in the world and needs to continue to step up to the plate. There is no other country in the world today that is looked upon more than the US to lead the way. No matter how much they critisize us.
8:25 pm on November 6th, 2008 21
Everyone here seems to be talking from the perspective of being an American who “looks” American — either white or black. But what about those of us who “blend” because of our Asian features.
I’ve lived throughout the orient most of my adult life and have the type of amorphic oriental face that could pass for Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Thai-Chinese, etc. Over the years, I have used it to my advantage to blend in — though it can get embarrassing at times when people get pissed at you because they think you’re PRETENDING to be an American.
I pose this question to all of the Korean-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc. who live overseas. How many times have you NOT spoken up as to your American nationality when in situations when America was being lambasted. In a riot, you’d be a damn fool to identify yourself — but what about in a bar or restaurant or social activity? What then?
I think the answer will come back that they say nothing. This is the same as pretending to be another nationality — and NOT an American. And yes, I have done it many times — letting silence be my disguise.
11:05 pm on November 6th, 2008 22
With the exceptions of Warren G. Harding and Calvin Coolidge, I’ve opposed the foreign policy of every American president since the great Grover S. Cleveland left office in 1989, yet never once have I denied being an American or being proud of that fact.
4:12 am on November 7th, 2008 23
Grover S. Cleveland left office in 1989????? Did you mean Ronald “Recession” Regan or 1889?
I dislike everything about our current lame duck president. His bourgeois, pro-military CONTRACTOR policies, in part, drove me to flee America. I never realized how special America was until I left, and I would never be anything except proud to be from New York!
But I’m also proud to be an American who pays 0 in income tax to Hallucination, KBR, et al.
4:27 am on November 7th, 2008 24
In places like Korea (or East Asia) or Europe, you could well catch criticism for being an American. I’ve never backed away from that.
In the streets of Khartoum, in the burbs of Kigali, or on the beach in Dar es Salaam, there are some who would be happy to kill you, and any traveling with you, for being American.
7:20 am on November 7th, 2008 25
No mistaking me for an American riding a big white Harley-Davidson with American, Tennessee and Texas Flags on myself and my bike.
I fled america because of Bush’s bourgeois, Pro-Military Contractor policies because it’s my bread and butter. My livelyhood and derived source of income.
9:46 am on November 7th, 2008 26
The only times I’ve denied being American is when I didn’t want to speak English.
10:19 am on November 7th, 2008 27
“And Former1HBCTJoe, I have ten years in Korea and have never once even contemplated telling someone I was anything other than what I am: an American. If people truly do that on a regular basis, that really just shocks the shee-it out of me.”
Hope you enjoyed ten years of paying more for taxis, getting denied entry into stores and being randomly accosted by irate Koreans.
7:00 pm on November 7th, 2008 28
“Hope you enjoyed ten years of paying more for taxis, getting denied entry into stores and being randomly accosted by irate Koreans.”
Sad excuse for a lack of national pride & having a set of gonads…
8:14 pm on November 7th, 2008 29
LSNC-No I think he is from Mozambique. I seen him at Starbucks and you can tell by his French accent.
2:06 am on November 8th, 2008 30
I’m american and I’ve told people im Canadian before. Its not because im ashamed to be an american, because im not. Im actually extremely proud to be an american but there are times when it can be considered “safer” to not advertise where you are from. Unfortunately people are targeted for being from specific countries and when you are out on your own, in certain environments (bars for example) it is smart (depending on the situation) to mitigate threats from any potential conflict causing factors, such as your nationality.
So i think saying people like that are “pathetic” isnt entirely fair. I agree, its wrong to feel accountable for your nation and we shouldnt hide who we are, except for in certain situations as I mentioned when your personal safety could be at risk.
3:23 am on November 8th, 2008 31
I tell people I’m Canadian and then I act like a D I C K!
4:06 am on November 8th, 2008 32
I would like to take issue with Former1HBCTJoe’s comment of “Anyone who has been to Korea and claims they’ve never said they were Canadian out in public is lying through their teeth.” Sir/Madame, I am an American living in Korea since 1984 and have never, never once even considered denying my nationality. Personally, I feel that it is tantamount to betrayal! If I may be so bold, I think that you owe those of us who have not lied “through their teeth’ an apology!
7:47 am on November 8th, 2008 33
Jafo,
Thanks for the good chuckle.
8:04 am on November 8th, 2008 34
I can’t recall every denying being an American, but I have pretended to be a Spanish speaker to get out of “speak Englishee” conversations when I wasn’t in the mood.
Once when I was on the subway an old man asked me if I was American or Canadian. I said American, and he replied with some rapid Korean that I couldn’t catch. My stop happened to come up right then, and as I started to leave, the old man stood up straight and saluted me.
Ever since I’ve wondered what he was thinking. I looked 100% NOT-ARMY, so I obviously wasn’t a soldier. And what if I said I were Canadian?
8:53 am on November 8th, 2008 35
Good points made in the comments here. I can definitely understand not wanting to tell people you are an American if walking around the streets of Khartoum as Richardson pointed out, but the AP writer lives in Vienna and he was simply passing himself as another nationality because of global public opinion at the time. As I stated before I find this pathetic.
In Korea I am very up front about being an American GI and the vast majority of the time I get a positive reception and no problems.
8:59 am on November 10th, 2008 36
As a soldier who was assigned to both JTF-160 and JTF-GTMO, I have to ask: What abuses, exactly, made you compare Abu Ghraib to the detention mission in Guantanamo?
I’m fairly sick of my service being compared to the criminals of AG. The more it is repeated, the more it becomes an accepted meme. Do your fellow soldiers a favor and provide a fair accounting of the mission.
10:46 am on November 10th, 2008 37
You might want to read more carefully before getting so defensive. I didn’t compare Abu Graib to Gitmo. I said isolated incidents occurred in each of those facilities. However, most of the media narrative about Gitmo just like with Abu Graib is nothing but sensationalism.
11:38 am on November 10th, 2008 38
Apologies if I misinterpreted, but you wrote the following:
I’ll amend my previous question and ask in a different way: What incidents are you referencing? If you’re citing the infamous FBI documents, a complete and thorough investigation was performed with the result that the most shocking accusations were found to be unsupported and unsubstantiated. Other accusations have been followed up on with the utmost dedication and deference being given to the proper treatment of the detainees.
Again, all I ask is that my fellow JTF-160/170/GTMO servicemen and women be given a fair shake. Don’t feel the need to bend to any memes that what took place in GTMO was anything less than a special detention mission run by competent, dedicated, professional and decent members of the military.
4:09 pm on November 10th, 2008 39
I have no doubt the vast majority of those prisoners at Gitmo were well taken care of and professionally treated. Stories such as the Koran in the toilet were initially sensationalized but later debunked and of course the media said little about that. Same with the FBI documents that were based off of false allegation from the prisoners.
However, things such as the harsh interrogation tactics (ie-waterboarding) and minor abuse incidents where people were reprimanded did happen in extremely isolated cases:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/05/terror/main653890.shtml
This is what I was referencing in comparison to the Woomera detention facility where minor abuse cases happened as well:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/20/1053196541718.html
4:35 pm on November 10th, 2008 40
“However, things such as the harsh interrogation tactics (ie-waterboarding) and minor abuse incidents where people were reprimanded did happen in extremely isolated cases…”
Really? Because most reliable press accounts would seem to indicate that these practices became institutionalized practices following 9/11.
If your curious as to where I’m coming from, Jane Mayer’s “The Dark Side” is probably the best place to start.
As for the issuing of reprimands, I would say that such things were more for show rather than actually repudiating torture policies. After all, if what you say is true, why haven’t David Addington, John Yoo, or Alberto Gonzalez been “reprimanded”.
6:10 pm on November 10th, 2008 41
I believe there have been only three incidents all involving the CIA and waterboarding. None of which occurred at GITMO. One was Khalid who alledgedly gave up the clues that led to the arrest of the Bali bombers. It was also suspected he may have known exactly where Osama Bin Laden was hiding.
8:32 pm on November 10th, 2008 42
Let me come to the defense of “Waterboarding…”
I was waterboarded in SERE school, but already being schooled in various forms of torture, I just relaxed and passed out, as i knew the docs would revive me.
It is a very effective form of torture and one that should remain in our arsenal to get the bad guys to spill the beans, thus providing valuable information that will & HAS saved American lives.
We seem to forget the facts about the enemy:
#1. There are NO live American/Coalition POWs in their hands…they have ALL been mercilessly tortured and kill…quite violently.
#2. It is common practice amongst our military and contractors to save the last round for themselves…(I even kept a few loose rounds in my pocket for this very purpose, just in case I expended all of my magazines), as we know that we will not be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, or even close to how the terrorist have been treated at Gitmo or other “Club Med” type detainment facilities.
#3. The terrorist in Gitmo have been treated VERY well by their own standards, but have still tried to abuse & even kill their guards…I would have at least treated them in the same manner as Sheriff Joe, but they are being treated BETTER than inmates at his R&R facility in Arizona…what is wrong with that picture?
#4. The terrorist are schooled & even have pamphlets instucting them on how to use our own justice system & Judeo-Christian principles against us.
Time to wake up & smell the coffee, Folks…the terrorists/Radical Muslim problem is not going away, and has only gotten worse after our recent election…Why? “Kindness is seen as Weakness in the Uncivilized World.”
9:26 pm on November 10th, 2008 43
@41 ‘Let me come to the defense of ““Waterboarding…”‘
Let me come to the OPPOSITION of “Waterboarding…”
Let’s not forget that the first international test of G. W. Bush was not 9/11, but an incident where a U.S. Navy reconnaissance aircraft knocked down a Chinese interceptor and the American aircraft and crew were captured. At the time, there was concern about how the crew would be treated. The aircraft and crew possessed a lot of sensitive information the Chinese would love to have.
But most of us had faith in something called the Geneva Conventions and that those sailors would be treated humanely. We believed that their questioning would be more interview and less interrogation.
Roll that scenario forward to today. What would we expect the next time our service members are captured by a ‘civil’ country? Over the past years we told the world that we have the right to reinterpret the Geneva Conventions as we see fit. We told the world that practices that were historical condemned when the Spanish and Japanese did them were not torture. We told the world that waterboarding was an acceptable means of interrogation. We set a precedent for the treatment of military prisoners in the future.
There was a reason why even most conservative former military politicians, including John McCain and Lindsey Graham, strongly objected to it. It’s wrong.
9:46 pm on November 10th, 2008 44
“Time to wake up & smell the coffee, Folks…the terrorists/Radical Muslim problem is not going away, and has only gotten worse after our recent election…Why? ‘Kindness is seen as Weakness in the Uncivilized World.’”
You’re right CalmSeas. The “terrorist/Radical Muslim problem” won’t go away anytime soon. That’s probably due to the fact that we have individuals like you in our armed forces who think that it’s perfectly legitimate to engage in torture.
Fact is, the very actions that you countenance is the sort of red meat that the “terrorist/Radical Muslim” thrives on. It only goes to confirm the very twisted views that groups like al-Qaeda seek to spread and benefit from.
9:54 pm on November 10th, 2008 45
JOEC, I think the verdict was that the Chinese fighter that was “thumping” the US reconn aircraft (also known as sending the jet blast of the fighter under the wings) when the pilot of the fighter got way to close and hit the recon aircraft. Video and voice transmissions appear to confirm this. If you call this “knocking down a Chinese intercepter” I would call it overconfident Chinese pilot who thought he was ‘shit hot’ and caused an international incident. Most of the faith came in the fact that torturing or harming the US airmaen would have resulted in a destroying of relations between the two countries. The Geneva conventions had nothing to do with it. I expect should our troops ever be held prisoner by a ‘civil’ country (france, germany, or england) they would be treated the same. But we are not talking about ‘civil’ countries or people. We are talking about non government terrorist groups with no affiliation to anyone but perhaps ‘Allah”. (until the next group comes along)
10:02 pm on November 10th, 2008 46
JoeC:
You seem to have flown right over the facts that we are facing in regards to an enemy that has NO regard for the Geneva Convention and used one incident, which was higly influenced diplomatically…not even remotely related to the current GWOT, as a basis for your arguement.
Now, let us look closely at the countries we have fought in the 20th century…how many of those countries followed the Geneva convention, or if it were before the Geneva convention, followed the rule of the Law of Land warfare?
Answer…NOT ONE!
You would treat terrorist that have tortured and raped our people via very cruel means (dragging them behind vehicles, mutilation, etc.), under the Geneva Convention, which they so truly despise, until they are captured.
I would truly prefer to be waterboarded than having my genitals cut off, being man-raped, or being dragged behind a moving vehicle…until the Tangoes had become bored of their game, or ran out of film & decided to cut my head off.
Do you really think the Chinese, who by some standards invented & refined the art of torture, would not use it on captured Americans in the event we were at war with them?
By the way…did we ever get that P-3 back?
10:03 pm on November 10th, 2008 47
Oh Yea…Happy Birthday, Marines…233 years old! Semper Fi!
10:05 pm on November 10th, 2008 48
Here is a NAVY incident that is related to Korea…what kind of treatment did the men of the Pueblo receive while in captivity?
10:19 pm on November 10th, 2008 49
Oh Yeah, Happy Birthday, Marines. Semper Fi!
8:59 am on November 11th, 2008 50
Thank you all for your service, especially those who are serving overseas. Gentlemen (and women), you have my undying gratitude and respect.
9:13 am on November 11th, 2008 51
Gents I have heard all the arguments before about sanctioning torture and I haven’t found one yet that has demonstrated to me that waterboarding has been worth the international condemnation our nation has received over it.
Yes only three people were waterboarded but it might as well be every prisoner in a US facility being waterboarded considering the perception that has been created surrounding this issue.
Oh yeah by the way Happy Birthday Marine Corps as well!
9:55 am on November 11th, 2008 52
Calmseas, The EP-3 Orion was returned to the US in crates. The Chinese would not allow for its repair on Hainan Island. The US also had to pay for the shipping of the aircraft along with food and quarters for the captives for 11 days. The Aircraft was reassembled in the US and placed back in service.
10:17 am on November 11th, 2008 53
GI Korea
” Gents I have heard all the arguments before about sanctioning torture and I haven’t found one yet that has demonstrated to me that waterboarding has been worth the international condemnation our nation has received over it.” (Sounds too much like Sally Fields and ‘I’m so glad you… you like me’) The US has been internationally condemned for one reason or another for as long as I can remember. Looking toward international acceptance for ‘good’ behavior is the fastest way I can think of to weaken our standing in the world today. I can’t think of one country in the world that would tell us ‘we’re glad you’re being nice’.
10:18 am on November 11th, 2008 54
@46
The papers recently reported that for the past 4 years we have had orders to do ops anyway where we suspect Al Qeada is. We know we are engaging in Syria, Iran, and Pakistan even though we are not officially at war with any of those countries.
How will we expect our captured members to be treated?
12:13 pm on November 11th, 2008 55
“How will we expect our captured members to be treated?”
“…than having my genitals cut off, being man-raped, or being dragged behind a moving vehicle…until the Tangoes had become bored of their game, or ran out of film & decided to cut my head off.”
12:24 pm on November 11th, 2008 56
“…and I haven’t found one yet that has demonstrated to me that waterboarding has been worth the international condemnation our nation has received over it.”
Cannot remember the Clown’s name right now, but he was the Tango with the hair like Claribell the Clown that was taken to a secret facility somewhere and interrogated/waterboarded until he gave up the info that eventually saved many, many American lives. His picture was plastered all over the media, so his fellow Butt-huggers would know that he was the one who had given them up.
Obviously there are two sides of the fence here on this issue, but I do hope that our Intelligence agencies keep up the good work and continue their aggressive interrogation techniques…
However, for the record, I would NEVER condone the type of torture that the Tangoes have/are inflicting on our people, both civilian & military…that is just plain barbaric and has no place on the field of battle, thus the reason we have NO RESPECT for the Radical Muslims as a foe…they are amateurs at best…definitely unprofessional.
2:03 pm on November 11th, 2008 57
JOEC. “How will we expect our captured members to be treated?” We currently have no captured members, since all have been shot, beheaded, tortured to death etc. I don’t expect that to change.
3:01 pm on November 11th, 2008 58
I am talking about our troops that might be captured and held in the future by the state governments, not the radicals. I am sure they won’t be executed. Even Saddam was not foolish enough to do that. But should there captors now have an excuse to waterboard them?
6:09 pm on November 11th, 2008 59
“I am talking about our troops that might be captured and held in the future by the state governments, not the radicals.”
What country would we possibly go to war with that would actively follow the Geneva Convention? Due to popular belief, when countries engage in war they also still engage in diplomatic efforts, which includes the treatment of POWs. At times this has been a one-sided bargaining chip, but it still is pursued.
Yea, at times we might like to give France a good drubbing…Ha!
, but I just do not see us going to war with a civilized “State Government” anytime in the near future.
Sure, we are facing Iran/Syria, etc., who are also Radical Muslim supporters, and China, and possibly Russia on down the line. N. Korea, as has been pointed out, is still a very dangerous, but unstable foe…look for them to just simply implode, but with very serious and far-reaching side effects. They will then be simply vermin who need to be exterminated.
We are talking about the enemy that we currently face…an enemy who shouts the name of a God (Allah) and speaks out of both sides of their mouth and arse at the same time, but in reality, they are an enemy who seeks to enslave everyone, even their own followers, in a totally absurd belief in a book (Koran) that was written by a false prophet.
If it truly was a religion of peace, as they claim, then why do so many promote the idea that the infidel must either convert, die, or be enslaved?
I see your belief in a system that is aimed to protect the U.S. fighting man, JOEC, as I was fed the same stuff for over twenty years also, but reality has superceeded it.
12:32 pm on November 12th, 2008 60
“I am an American living in Korea since 1984 and have never, never once even considered denying my nationality. Personally, I feel that it is tantamount to betrayal! If I may be so bold, I think that you owe those of us who have not lied “through their teeth’ an apology!”
So do you consider yourself an American or an Ex-pat?
While you may have never flat out lied about your nationality, the silence of omission is just as bold a lie.
Having lived here since 1984, I would be interested to know just how boldly “American” you were during the low points in relations between the two countries over the past 10 years. How often do you stand up for your country against the waves of xenophobic media fueled bigotry? Or is it easier to keep quiet and hope people don’t associate you with the slogans they chant in the street?
4:41 pm on December 11th, 2008 61
GI once said concerning the American abuse of detainees:
“However, things such as the harsh interrogation tactics (ie-waterboarding) and minor abuse incidents where people were reprimanded did happen in extremely isolated cases…” In other words, GI is arguing that this was the case of a “few bad apples”.
I argued before that this was flat out not true and now we have even further proof that GI’s attempt to whitewash and argue away the fact of American abusive treatment of prisoners is patently false.
The Washington Post reports the a BIPARTISAN Senate investigation has concluded that:
“…former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and other top Bush administration officials are directly responsible for abuses of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and charges that decisions by those officials led to serious offenses against prisoners in Iraq and elsewhere.
“The Senate Armed Services Committee report accuses Rumsfeld and his deputies of being the principal architects of the plan to use harsh interrogation techniques on captured fighters and terrorism suspects, rejecting the Bush administration’s contention that the policies originated lower down the command chain.”
The article further goes on to quote from the study by noting:
“‘The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of ‘a few bad apples’ acting on their own,’ the panel concludes. ‘The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees.’”
Read the rest on your own http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121101969.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR
It’ll be interesting to see how GI attempts to squirm out of this one. It sure is a pickle that he’s gotten himself into by making his previous statement back on November 6.
6:57 pm on December 11th, 2008 62
I don’t have to squirm out of anything. If people read the thread I am against abuse of detainees and I have made that pretty clear. I said “minor abuse incidents where people were reprimanded did happen in extremely isolated cases” and I am correct because reports show there was eight incidents of abuse and the soldiers involved were reprimanded for those abuses:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/05/terror/main653890.shtml
They were reprimanded because what they did was outside of the established guidelines put forth by the President that said interrogators could use methods that were the same interrogation methods used on US servicemembers who attend SERE school.
As I have stated before in this thread, I disagree with some of those methods such as waterboarding because I have heard all the arguments and I haven’t found none yet that has demonstrated to me that waterboarding and other interrogation techniques such as using dogs has been worth the international condemnation our nation has received over it.
Now if you are going to insist on being a sock puppet, name calling, and in general being a troll here on the site then I may just have to contact your university web administrator. I don’t mind you commenting with dissenting opinions, but you are not following the established commenting policy that forbids name calling, an ad hominem attacks, & sock puppetry. You have been warned.
7:35 pm on December 11th, 2008 63
Just for the record: Water boarding has only been used in three known instances, none of them at GITMO, and all by the CIA. One was against Kahn(?) who was believed may have known the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden. Any other specifics on the torture in GITMO?
8:08 pm on December 11th, 2008 64
“Any other specifics on the torture in GITMO?”
Not a lot of specifics yet, but I hear there are people chomping at the bit for the change of administration so they can clear there conscience by revealing some of the things they’ve witnessed of asked to be party to.
We learned a while back that the FBI Director pulled his officers out of GITMO because of reports his officers made of some of the practices there.
Stay tuned.
9:35 am on December 12th, 2008 65
Elias
The panel’s investigation focused on the Defense Department’s employment of controversial interrogation practices, including forced nudity, painful stress positions, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures and the use of dogs.
Lets keep in context the “torture” being talked about.
9:52 am on December 12th, 2008 66
“The panel’s investigation focused on the Defense Department’s employment of controversial interrogation practices, including forced nudity, painful stress positions, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures and the use of dogs.
Lets keep in context the ‘torture’ being talked about.”
Yes, Gerry, let’s situate our understanding of “torture” within the sort naive, self-comforting tropes that you want us to. Maybe exerting enough mental energy on such a task will rub-off on the rest of the world so that they’ll eventually fall in line. Give me a break.
10:22 am on December 12th, 2008 67
Elias
Sorry, no breaks.
The methods employed have been discussed throughout the world. Much of the discussion is about “stress and duress vs torture”. While it places stress and duress on an individual to keep them awake for 24 hrs, it is not considered torture. The same holds for temperature extremes, nudity, disorientation, and the use of dogs (if that is what the individual fears most).
On the other hand extreme use of sleep deprivation, temperature extremes etc.etc, can eventually cause mental or physical harm. At that point it becomes torture. The world body has not determined the point at which stress and duress become torture, other than when phyical and mental harm occurs.
I’d be willing to bet most of the commenters here have been to the field where they have been awake longer than 24 hours under extreme temperatures, in stressful positions for hours on end. (I know I have been, and yes, it was very stressful)
So perhaps we should indict the entire general staff of the military for having us tortured under your definition.
10:46 am on December 12th, 2008 68
“Sorry, no breaks.”
Nothing new there.
Gerry, I invite you forget these pluralist definitions of what constitutes as “torture” and simply consider what engaging in these sort of activities does for the US’s overall end goal of stanching global Jihadist terrorism. From everything I’ve read, the constant meme that get repeated again and again is winning “the heart and minds” of America’s adversaries.
How do you expect the United States to do this when it is engaging in activities that only enrage the hearts and corrupt the minds of those who wish to massacre Americans? These sorts of activities only undermine the public narrative of what the US is trying to convey to disaffected Middle Eastern individuals. America wants to tell the story that it is in fact not the “evil empire” that seeks to dominate and oppress Arabs, Persian, and Muslims. If that’s the case don’t simply talk the talk, but walk the walk.
I suggest you read the recently published book “How to Break a Terrorist” by Matthew Alexander (alias). Having worked as an interrogator in Iraq, he basically says that these techniques yield very few successful results. That if in fact, if you want to persuade these individuals to help you more subtle means are required. Not the sort of blunt cudgels that you see as being no problem.
You also say this: “I’d be willing to bet most of the commenters here have been to the field where they have been awake longer than 24 hours under extreme temperatures, in stressful positions for hours on end. (I know I have been, and yes, it was very stressful)”
I’m sorry, but this is a strained analogy. The context of the stress and hardships you and others in the filed experienced as members of America’s armed services is entirely different from those who are detained against their will. You had the choice to join the service. These people didn’t have any say about being sent to some black site and receiving the treatment they did.
11:16 am on December 12th, 2008 69
Eli
“The context of the stress and hardships you and others in the filed experienced as members of America’s armed services is entirely different from those who are detained against their will. You had the choice to join the service. These people didn’t have any say about being sent to some black site and receiving the treatment they did.”
Beg to differ, “these people” freely joined to serve thier cause. I doubt any POWs get to choose where they are sent. And I disagree on “receiving the treatment they did”. None were hurt mentally or physically and most are now grossly overweight.
I have serious doubts about the “harm” the practice does in the eyes of the jihadists. They are well known to want to kill cartoonists and people naming teddy bears Mohamud.
I think the people of the mid east have gotten the word about US behavior from the actions of the troops themselves over the last 5 years. The word is not how poorly they behave, but how well.
11:46 am on December 12th, 2008 70
“I have serious doubts about the ‘harm’ the practice does in the eyes of the jihadists.”
All I can say is go read Matthew Alexander’s book as well as Jane Mayer’s article about the show “24″. Both basically conclude that harsh methods don’t work and in fact are counterproductive to the overall task at hand.
Here’s the link for the Jane Mayer piece:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer
(The piece quotes from military officials themselves. So no, it’s not some chip off the old block of lefty agitprop.)
5:14 pm on December 12th, 2008 71
Elias
I read the article twice. Was there a particulair paragraph you wanted me to focus on. I saw no qoutes from military officials themselves.
Yes, I too have also read about torture not working, but we are not talking about torture, only stress and duress.
5:46 pm on December 12th, 2008 72
Let me get this straight. You read the article TWICE and you still missed this:
“This past November, U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, flew to Southern California to meet with the creative team behind ’24.’ Finnegan, who was accompanied by three of the most experienced military and F.B.I. interrogators in the country, arrived on the set as the crew was filming. At first, Finnegan—wearing an immaculate Army uniform, his chest covered in ribbons and medals—aroused confusion: he was taken for an actor and was asked by someone what time his ‘call’ was.
In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. ‘I’d like them to stop,’ Finnegan said of the show’s producers. ‘They should do a show where torture backfires.’”
Again, Gerry, give me a break. I skimmed through the article for a whole .5 seconds and found the relevant paragraph. I don’t agree with you on a lot of things but I refuse to believe that you’re this incompetent.
As for not talking about “torture” but rather “stress” and “duress”, your splitting hairs here to suit your own untenable position concerning the matter.
Fact is, if it was American soldiers captured in the field being forced to endure sleep deprivation, stress positions, temperature extremes, and hounding by ferocious canines I know you wouldn’t be classifying such actions under the benign, obfuscatory headings of ‘stress’ and ‘duress’. You and your ilk would be raising holy hell about how those conniving Arabs are violating sacrosanct principles of international law and engaging in torture.
Finally, I’ll be generous and for a moment grant your wish and say that we’re talking about ‘stress’ and ‘duress’ and not ‘torture’. If you’re cognizant of arguments that show torture doesn’t work, can you tell me of a instance were applying ‘stress’ and ‘duress’ techniques have been more effective? Can you point to a specific case were depriving a detainee of sleep, subjecting him to temperature extremes, and forcing him to wear garments of the fairer sex ever yielded high value intelligence for commanders on the ground or senior level policy makers?
Think through that one twice, even three times if you have to Gerry. I eagerly await the results.
8:05 pm on December 12th, 2008 73
For those of you who are still convinced that the torture of detainees were “isolated incidents”, cases of a “few bad apples” acting rogue, or find the recent Senate Armed Services Committee’s report lacking, I suggest you read Prof. Philip Zimbardo’s excellent books “The Lucifer Effect”. It’s an excellent explanation of what happened at Abu Ghraib from a social psychology perspective.
However, if you don’t feel like reading the whole book because you’re too busy I suggest having a look at a talk Zimbardo gave concerning his book.
http://fora.tv/2008/01/24/Genocide_to_Abu_Ghraib_How_Good_People_Turn_Evil
9:28 pm on December 12th, 2008 74
I found your paragraph on page three of the very very boring article about 24. (Sorry, page one was so long and boring, I failed to realize there were eight more pages).
The paragraph basically says nothing other than the show was misrepresenting the military. One of the “Top” interragators mentioned the tactic of getting detainees to send a post card home, whereby they gathered more information(The horror, the horror).
You say, “my ilk”. I say your “ilk” endanger all of us from future attacks. The possibility of terrorists planning nuclear destruction to entire cities, dirty bombs that will kill few but panic millions, or even the suicide bombing in a shopping mall.
Your thoughts of, “If we leave them alone, they will go away” do not work in the real world. You have been isolated from terror in this country and feel it will always be that way.(You have no reason to feel otherwise).
Don’t bore me with University Professors who whole heartedly believe they know all, see all. Many, many, are achidemics who never left there home state. (I have several in the family, who don’t know how to take care of themselves without a lot of help).
So I deal with the real world and common sense along with alot of experience.
Stress and duress are stress and duress, (we all go through it in our lives) (one is more liable to give in under stress or duress), torture is mental or physical harm. (the questions answered will be what is expected)