The paragraph basically says nothing other than the show was misrepresenting the military. One of the “Top” interragators mentioned the tactic of getting detainees to send a post card home, whereby they gathered more information(The horror, the horror).

You say, “my ilk”. I say your “ilk” endanger all of us from future attacks. The possibility of terrorists planning nuclear destruction to entire cities, dirty bombs that will kill few but panic millions, or even the suicide bombing in a shopping mall.

Your thoughts of, “If we leave them alone, they will go away” do not work in the real world. You have been isolated from terror in this country and feel it will always be that way.(You have no reason to feel otherwise).

Don’t bore me with University Professors who whole heartedly believe they know all, see all. Many, many, are achidemics who never left there home state. (I have several in the family, who don’t know how to take care of themselves without a lot of help).

So I deal with the real world and common sense along with alot of experience.

Stress and duress are stress and duress, (we all go through it in our lives) (one is more liable to give in under stress or duress), torture is mental or physical harm. (the questions answered will be what is expected)

However, if you don’t feel like reading the whole book because you’re too busy I suggest having a look at a talk Zimbardo gave concerning his book.

http://fora.tv/2008/01/24/Genocide_to_Abu_Ghraib_How_Good_People_Turn_Evil

“This past November, U.S. Army Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, the dean of the United States Military Academy at West Point, flew to Southern California to meet with the creative team behind ‘24.’ Finnegan, who was accompanied by three of the most experienced military and F.B.I. interrogators in the country, arrived on the set as the crew was filming. At first, Finnegan—wearing an immaculate Army uniform, his chest covered in ribbons and medals—aroused confusion: he was taken for an actor and was asked by someone what time his ‘call’ was.

In fact, Finnegan and the others had come to voice their concern that the show’s central political premise—that the letter of American law must be sacrificed for the country’s security—was having a toxic effect. In their view, the show promoted unethical and illegal behavior and had adversely affected the training and performance of real American soldiers. ‘I’d like them to stop,’ Finnegan said of the show’s producers. ‘They should do a show where torture backfires.’”

Again, Gerry, give me a break. I skimmed through the article for a whole .5 seconds and found the relevant paragraph. I don’t agree with you on a lot of things but I refuse to believe that you’re this incompetent.

As for not talking about “torture” but rather “stress” and “duress”, your splitting hairs here to suit your own untenable position concerning the matter.

Fact is, if it was American soldiers captured in the field being forced to endure sleep deprivation, stress positions, temperature extremes, and hounding by ferocious canines I know you wouldn’t be classifying such actions under the benign, obfuscatory headings of ’stress’ and ‘duress’. You and your ilk would be raising holy hell about how those conniving Arabs are violating sacrosanct principles of international law and engaging in torture.

Finally, I’ll be generous and for a moment grant your wish and say that we’re talking about ’stress’ and ‘duress’ and not ‘torture’. If you’re cognizant of arguments that show torture doesn’t work, can you tell me of a instance were applying ’stress’ and ‘duress’ techniques have been more effective? Can you point to a specific case were depriving a detainee of sleep, subjecting him to temperature extremes, and forcing him to wear garments of the fairer sex ever yielded high value intelligence for commanders on the ground or senior level policy makers?

Think through that one twice, even three times if you have to Gerry. I eagerly await the results.

I read the article twice. Was there a particulair paragraph you wanted me to focus on. I saw no qoutes from military officials themselves.

Yes, I too have also read about torture not working, but we are not talking about torture, only stress and duress.

All I can say is go read Matthew Alexander’s book as well as Jane Mayer’s article about the show “24″. Both basically conclude that harsh methods don’t work and in fact are counterproductive to the overall task at hand.

Here’s the link for the Jane Mayer piece:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/02/19/070219fa_fact_mayer
(The piece quotes from military officials themselves. So no, it’s not some chip off the old block of lefty agitprop.)

Beg to differ, “these people” freely joined to serve thier cause. I doubt any POWs get to choose where they are sent. And I disagree on “receiving the treatment they did”. None were hurt mentally or physically and most are now grossly overweight.

I have serious doubts about the “harm” the practice does in the eyes of the jihadists. They are well known to want to kill cartoonists and people naming teddy bears Mohamud.

I think the people of the mid east have gotten the word about US behavior from the actions of the troops themselves over the last 5 years. The word is not how poorly they behave, but how well.

Nothing new there.

Gerry, I invite you forget these pluralist definitions of what constitutes as “torture” and simply consider what engaging in these sort of activities does for the US’s overall end goal of stanching global Jihadist terrorism. From everything I’ve read, the constant meme that get repeated again and again is winning “the heart and minds” of America’s adversaries.

How do you expect the United States to do this when it is engaging in activities that only enrage the hearts and corrupt the minds of those who wish to massacre Americans? These sorts of activities only undermine the public narrative of what the US is trying to convey to disaffected Middle Eastern individuals. America wants to tell the story that it is in fact not the “evil empire” that seeks to dominate and oppress Arabs, Persian, and Muslims. If that’s the case don’t simply talk the talk, but walk the walk.

I suggest you read the recently published book “How to Break a Terrorist” by Matthew Alexander (alias). Having worked as an interrogator in Iraq, he basically says that these techniques yield very few successful results. That if in fact, if you want to persuade these individuals to help you more subtle means are required. Not the sort of blunt cudgels that you see as being no problem.

You also say this: “I’d be willing to bet most of the commenters here have been to the field where they have been awake longer than 24 hours under extreme temperatures, in stressful positions for hours on end. (I know I have been, and yes, it was very stressful)”

I’m sorry, but this is a strained analogy. The context of the stress and hardships you and others in the filed experienced as members of America’s armed services is entirely different from those who are detained against their will. You had the choice to join the service. These people didn’t have any say about being sent to some black site and receiving the treatment they did.

Sorry, no breaks.

The methods employed have been discussed throughout the world. Much of the discussion is about “stress and duress vs torture”. While it places stress and duress on an individual to keep them awake for 24 hrs, it is not considered torture. The same holds for temperature extremes, nudity, disorientation, and the use of dogs (if that is what the individual fears most).

On the other hand extreme use of sleep deprivation, temperature extremes etc.etc, can eventually cause mental or physical harm. At that point it becomes torture. The world body has not determined the point at which stress and duress become torture, other than when phyical and mental harm occurs.

I’d be willing to bet most of the commenters here have been to the field where they have been awake longer than 24 hours under extreme temperatures, in stressful positions for hours on end. (I know I have been, and yes, it was very stressful)

So perhaps we should indict the entire general staff of the military for having us tortured under your definition.

Lets keep in context the ‘torture’ being talked about.”

Yes, Gerry, let’s situate our understanding of “torture” within the sort naive, self-comforting tropes that you want us to. Maybe exerting enough mental energy on such a task will rub-off on the rest of the world so that they’ll eventually fall in line. Give me a break.

The panel’s investigation focused on the Defense Department’s employment of controversial interrogation practices, including forced nudity, painful stress positions, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures and the use of dogs.

Lets keep in context the “torture” being talked about.