By The December 8th crash killed a Korean-American mother, her two young children, and the children’s grandmother.
Thirteen Marine Corps personnel have been disciplined for errors that led a disabled Marine Corps jet fighter to crash in a San Diego neighborhood last December.
The accident killed four members of one family.
Service officials told members of Congress on Tuesday that four Marine Corps officers at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar near San Diego have been relieved of duty for directing the F/A-18D Hornet to fly over the residential area.
The jet was having engine problems. Officials said the pilot should have been told to fly over San Diego Bay and land at another base that sits on the tip of a peninsula.
Nine other military personnel received lesser reprimands.-AP
Since the beginning people have questioned why didn’t the jet attempt a landing at North Island Naval Air Station, rather than runway 6 which took the jet over La Jolla and other populated parts of Southern California.
The crash caused fear and anger in University City. Residents there, and in other neighborhoods in Miramar’s flight paths, said the Marines shouldn’t have risked sending a disabled aircraft over a populated area when North Island had ample facilities to accommodate the jet.
In the days following the crash, Miramar’s commander, Col. Christopher O’Connor, said that Neubauer correctly followed emergency landing procedures by heading to Miramar. He and other Marine officials said it is safe to fly an F/A-18 on one engine, and they cited the long odds against a double-engine failure.
During a public meeting in University City three days after the crash, O’Connor said Neubauer had done everything possible to avoid casualties on the ground.- San Diego Union-Tribune
If everything was being done to avoid casualties, why wasn’t North Island used? As was reported last December, an approach to that base could have been done entirely over water. It sounds to me what took place last December is what is called a clusterfuck. Heads rolled today as a result.
Update- More from the San Diego Union Tribune
The Marine jet crash that killed four people in University City on Dec. 8 could have been prevented if the pilot and officers on the ground had followed safety procedures, and if the Marine Corps had stopped flying the plane after noting a fuel problem months earlier, said people who were briefed by the Marine Corps on Tuesday.At least 10 minutes before Lt. Dan Neubauer’s F/A-18D Hornet went down, he was talking to Marine officials about what to do after one engine lost power and the other was possibly failing, according to air traffic control recordings released on the same day.
Neubauer turned down two chances to land his jet at North Island Naval Air Station, a nearby coastal airfield, while he was still offshore. He instead flew farther over heavily populated neighborhoods to attempt an emergency landing at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station.
“Senior officers communicating with the pilot, as well as the pilot himself, did not consult their checklist and follow appropriate procedures that could have prevented the incident altogether,” said Joe Kasper, spokesman for Rep. Duncan D. Hunter, R-Lakeside. Kasper attended a briefing with the Marine Corps on Tuesday morning.
Had they followed standard protocol, they would have realized the severity of the situation and diverted the aircraft to North Island, Kasper recalled the Marine officials saying.
No criminal charges are pending, but four officers – the squadron commander, squadron operations officer, standardization officer and maintenance officer – have been relieved of their duties and nine other Marines have been reprimanded, Kasper said.
The pilot’s status is under review. As I said earlier, the term clusterfuck seems appropriate.
6:48 pm on March 3rd, 2009 1
I just got done reading the AP article on this and was glad to see you posted it. It appears the Marines messed up big time on this. I feel absolutely horrible for Dong Yun Yoon who lost his entire family in the crash.
Mr. Yoon even defended the pilot after the crash with the assumption the pilot did everything he could to avoid the crash:
http://rokdrop.com/2008/12/10/man-who-lost-family-in-jet-crash-does-not-blame-pilot/
However, now it appears he had two chances to avoid crashing in the residential area and ignored them. The investigation on this needs to be completed and I would hope Congress gets involved to make sure a thorough and accurate investigation is done because Mr. Yoon deserves at least that much.
10:15 pm on March 3rd, 2009 2
Why do we even have policies, orders, and regulations?
12:54 am on March 4th, 2009 3
I’ve read the article in full already, and its clear the guy was acting on orders to attempt to land the aircraft at the airbase instead of ditching it. Also the military is saying that regulations were followed, and its a politician that is saying otherwise, let the investigation get finished with the results official before we point fingers.
And ontop of that, we have the luxury of sitting back, reading the reports, viewing the situation from different angles, consulting the experts, doing the math to determine the odds, all taking us days to weeks. This guy had minutes (if that) to make his decision, for good or for bad, it was a judgment call that we (the observers) have NO right to pick apart. All we can do is review the training provided, the SOP and policies in effect, and rely on the investigation to determine if it was an honest mistake, or gross negligence. No one is perfect, and the old saying “Sh!t Happens” applies. The fact that it hit a house (and killed the poor family involved) doesn’t change the situation at all. It could of landed in a football field, or in the woods, then nobody would be giving a damn.
12:01 am on March 4th, 2009 4
Let me emphasize this part of the article:
Before the decision was made to go to Miramar it appears it was known that one engine was out and the other was possibly having problems. This is what probably caused the air traffic control to suggest he land at North Island.
What I am wondering is whether he was ordered by his superiors to land at Miramar and maybe it wasn't fully his choice? That could explain why a number of Marines have been reprimanded over this.
That is why I said above a full investigation needs to be done to lay out all the facts because Mr. Yoon at least deserves that after losing his entire family to an accident that appears to may have been preventable.
1:35 am on March 4th, 2009 5
I don’t know Theotherguy, the fact that the pilot turned down two opportunities to land at North Island NAS seems like unnecessary risk taking in these events. Not sure how long it takes to fly twice past North Island and then back to Mirimar, but I’m betting the pilot and all involved had plenty of time to consider safely landing the plane at the NAS. Since the Marines are disciplining people at this point, I think we can be sure that these guys screwed up.
1:45 am on March 4th, 2009 6
A sad and bad deal for everyone.
4:05 am on March 4th, 2009 7
He didn’t fly past NAS twice. That is the thing, people are reading small parts of the article and extrapolating data that may or may not be true. The airport gave him the option of attempting to land there, he declined because his superiors either ordered or “suggested” he land the jet at the marine base. Remember that even though one engine was out, those jets can fly on a single engine (they often do) and that a double engine failure is considered “extremely rare”. From the base guys point of view, a routine training flight, one engine had issues (it happens), return home and lets look at it. On the way home, second engine starts to act up, superiors say “hurry up”, on the way, second engine failed.
I HIGHLY doubt he “turned down” the importunity to land at a safe base if the second engine was having problems. And if read carefully it never mentions the second engine having issued BEFORE he made the choice to return to base (and therefor not land at NAS), only afterward. A lot of people have stretched the scant facts out and built a straw house to implicate the pilot, making it sound like this guy did everything shy of aiming the plane at the house. Also remember hindsight is 20/20, now we KNOW he couldn’t make it back to the base, but at that exact moment the decision was made, based on the information available to HIM at THAT moment, that is the glass’s you must see the situation through. He didn’t have mechanics out on his wings inspecting his aircraft during flight, he didn’t have a recorder telling him he would crash if he didn’t land at the civilian air port. He only had his instrument panel, advice from superiors, and the knowledge that you can fly those jets home on one engine.
6:17 am on March 4th, 2009 8
Big time screw ups – more heads should role and the wing commander, if they have one in the Marines, should be fired. No excuses on this one – leave the flying to the AF!
7:24 am on March 4th, 2009 9
[...] Well, it turns out the pilot is in real need of our prayers, as “the crash might have been averted” — Military jet had chance to land before fatal crash. Milblogger GI Korea suggests that “the Marines messed up big time on this” and saying of the pilot that “it appears he had two chances to avoid crashing in the residential area and ignored them” — Marine Corps punishes 13 for San Diego jet crash. [...]
11:20 am on March 4th, 2009 10
Those are two separate paragraphs, put like that to make the reader jump to the assumption that the pilot just said "screw it". You of all people should know that the media doesn't exactly tell the truth "straight" and often tries to induce the reader to feel one way or the other.
And I agree with the fact that his superiors with punished means they told him to return back to base. Its WHEN they told him that matters.
Totally agree on waiting till after the investigation is complete before trying to crucify him. That was the entire point of my posts, people seem to want to join on the "burn the pilot, charge him for murder, kill him NOW" bandwagon based on a reporters interpretation of a handful of facts during an open investigation.
12:29 pm on March 4th, 2009 11
A commenter, who happens to be pilot, at another blog I write at wrote the following-
"Classic case of get-home-itis. Pilot probably wanted to land at Miramar and be able to go home versus getting stuck in North Island while his plane gets repaired. Poor head work here by the pilot. Violated 3710.7T procedures which if I recall state that the pilot land at the nearest suitable airfield. I know there are some caveats to this rule (really applies to multi-engine prop). I'm gonna have to look it up at work tomorrow. Curious as to why the MO got relieved. I know it mentions fuel leak but I would've liked to have sen more details on that. In the Navy, if a plane ISN'T leaking fuel, that's when it becomes a concern!!"
Here's the link- http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-…
He also wrote me in a email-
I’ll let you know what it says. I’ve been flying P-3’s for 16 years so I’m not familiar with F-18 specifics but if the tech manual does not call for the aircraft to be grounded, it’s hard to fault the maintenance side. I’ll see if I can read the SIR and see if the fuel transfer issue was a contributing factor to the mishap. If it wasn’t, I don’t see how their MO takes the heat for this. Since he was relieved, I think it’s safe to assume that the SIR probably links the fuel transfer issue to the mishap (probably caused a flameout of the second engine maybe or a lateral imbalance in the wings since one engine was shutdown and no way to transfer that fuel out of that wing?). I’ll see what 3710 says about engine out requirements and how it pertains to F-18’s.
and in another email-
Pretty cut and dry according to NATOPS 3710.7T, which is the guiding
operating manual for Naval Aviators to live by. Should've gone to North
Island.
Chapter 7, section 7.1.5.1 states: "Twin Engine Aircraft: In the event of
power failure or whenever an engine is stopped as a precaution on an
aircraft that has two engines, the pilot in command shall land at the
nearest suitable airfield, in terms of time, provided weather conditions,
terrain, and facilities available indicate that a safe landing can be
accomplished."
5:33 pm on March 4th, 2009 12
Are you on the investigating team? Have you received the confidential information on the incident?
If the answer to either of those two questions is "NO" then you have no ability to make a judgment either way. Especially since you are just quoting what someone else said. As has already been said, the fact that his superiors got relieved indicates something happened in that direction.
Everything said during the incident will be recorder and reviewed, and black box recovered will have recordings on the status of his aircraft, and the pilot himself will also be interviewed. The fact that so little information has been made available to the public so far means their still knee-deep in the investigation.
Random internet armchair commentators don't decide how these investigations and administrative decisions go (thank god). So just sit tight and wait it for the full brief. Rendering judgment, so early merely makes people look like a$$'s.
9:48 pm on March 4th, 2009 13
Oh if we're talking about the investigative team aren't those the ones who relieved four officers of their duties and reprimanded another nine. Judgment rendered, it was a clusterfuck. Dismissed!
10:19 pm on March 4th, 2009 14
Just show how little you know of the inner workings of the military. The investigating officer (and his team) do not render punishment. Their only job is to unearth facts and put together a final report that is handed over to the commanding officer (in this case it would be a general officer). Its the commanding officer that then decides the nature (if any) of the punishments.
Punishment can range anywhere from non-judicial (Art 15 or letter of reprimand / relief from duties) to full blown courts martial. In the case of civil jurisdiction the case is handled by the civilian authorities. But since this is a military training accident, it will most likely stay inside the military system.
Without the specific briefing or commanders notes we can not say exactly why he relieved them from their command / duty. But it most likely is because somethings unearthed during the investigation pointed towards wrong doing or other mistakes made by the command.
Really guys, there is a reason I'm saying to wait it out, unless your on the inside of these things you have NO CLUE whats going on. Or would you rather act like the Korean media did after the two girls were hit?