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	<title>Comments on: Marine Corps punishes 13 for San Diego jet crash</title>
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	<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/</link>
	<description>Korea From North to South</description>
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		<title>By: theotherguy</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-288144</link>
		<dc:creator>theotherguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 05:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-288144</guid>
		<description>Just show how little you know of the inner workings of the military.  The investigating officer (and his team) do not render punishment.  Their only job is to unearth facts and put together a final report that is handed over to the commanding officer (in this case it would be a general officer).  Its the commanding officer that then decides the nature (if any) of the punishments. 
 
Punishment can range anywhere from non-judicial (Art 15 or letter of reprimand / relief from duties) to full blown courts martial.  In the case of civil jurisdiction the case is handled by the civilian authorities.  But since this is a military training accident, it will most likely stay inside the military system. 
 
Without the specific briefing or commanders notes we can not say exactly why he relieved them from their command / duty.  But it most likely is because somethings unearthed during the investigation pointed towards wrong doing or other mistakes made by the command. 
 
Really guys, there is a reason I&#039;m saying to wait it out, unless your on the inside of these things you have NO CLUE whats going on.  Or would you rather act like the Korean media did after the two girls were hit? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just show how little you know of the inner workings of the military.  The investigating officer (and his team) do not render punishment.  Their only job is to unearth facts and put together a final report that is handed over to the commanding officer (in this case it would be a general officer).  Its the commanding officer that then decides the nature (if any) of the punishments.</p>
<p>Punishment can range anywhere from non-judicial (Art 15 or letter of reprimand / relief from duties) to full blown courts martial.  In the case of civil jurisdiction the case is handled by the civilian authorities.  But since this is a military training accident, it will most likely stay inside the military system.</p>
<p>Without the specific briefing or commanders notes we can not say exactly why he relieved them from their command / duty.  But it most likely is because somethings unearthed during the investigation pointed towards wrong doing or other mistakes made by the command.</p>
<p>Really guys, there is a reason I&#039;m saying to wait it out, unless your on the inside of these things you have NO CLUE whats going on.  Or would you rather act like the Korean media did after the two girls were hit? </p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-288134</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 04:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-288134</guid>
		<description>Oh if we&#039;re talking about the investigative team aren&#039;t those the ones who relieved four officers of their duties and reprimanded another nine. Judgment rendered, it was a clusterfuck. Dismissed! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh if we&#039;re talking about the investigative team aren&#039;t those the ones who relieved four officers of their duties and reprimanded another nine. Judgment rendered, it was a clusterfuck. Dismissed! </p>
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		<title>By: theotherguy</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-288051</link>
		<dc:creator>theotherguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-288051</guid>
		<description>Are you on the investigating team?  Have you received the confidential information on the incident? 
 
If the answer to either of those two questions is &quot;NO&quot; then you have no ability to make a judgment either way.  Especially since you are just quoting what someone else said.  As has already been said, the fact that his superiors got relieved indicates something happened in that direction. 
 
Everything said during the incident will be recorder and reviewed, and black box recovered will have recordings on the status of his aircraft, and the pilot himself will also be interviewed.  The fact that so little information has been made available to the public so far means their still knee-deep in the investigation. 
 
Random internet armchair commentators don&#039;t decide how these investigations and administrative decisions go (thank god).  So just sit tight and wait it for the full brief.  Rendering judgment, so early merely makes people look like a$$&#039;s. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you on the investigating team?  Have you received the confidential information on the incident?</p>
<p>If the answer to either of those two questions is &quot;NO&quot; then you have no ability to make a judgment either way.  Especially since you are just quoting what someone else said.  As has already been said, the fact that his superiors got relieved indicates something happened in that direction.</p>
<p>Everything said during the incident will be recorder and reviewed, and black box recovered will have recordings on the status of his aircraft, and the pilot himself will also be interviewed.  The fact that so little information has been made available to the public so far means their still knee-deep in the investigation.</p>
<p>Random internet armchair commentators don&#039;t decide how these investigations and administrative decisions go (thank god).  So just sit tight and wait it for the full brief.  Rendering judgment, so early merely makes people look like a$$&#039;s. </p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287982</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287982</guid>
		<description>A commenter, who happens to be pilot, at another blog I write at wrote the following- 
 
&quot;Classic case of get-home-itis. Pilot probably wanted to land at Miramar and be able to go home versus getting stuck in North Island while his plane gets repaired. Poor head work here by the pilot. Violated 3710.7T procedures which if I recall state that the pilot land at the nearest suitable airfield. I know there are some caveats to this rule (really applies to multi-engine prop). I&#039;m gonna have to look it up at work tomorrow. Curious as to why the MO got relieved. I know it mentions fuel leak but I would&#039;ve liked to have sen more details on that. In the Navy, if a plane ISN&#039;T leaking fuel, that&#039;s when it becomes a concern!!&quot; 
 
Here&#039;s the link- &lt;a href=&quot;http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash.php#comment-880707&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-...&lt;/a&gt;  
 
He also wrote me in a email- 
 
I&#8217;ll let you know what it says.  I&#8217;ve been flying P-3&#8217;s for 16 years so I&#8217;m not familiar with F-18 specifics but if the tech manual does not call for the aircraft to be grounded, it&#8217;s hard to fault the maintenance side.  I&#8217;ll see if I can read the SIR and see if the fuel transfer issue was a contributing factor to the mishap.  If it wasn&#8217;t, I don&#8217;t see how their MO takes the heat for this.  Since he was relieved, I think it&#8217;s safe to assume that the SIR probably links the fuel transfer issue to the mishap (probably caused a flameout of the second engine maybe or a lateral imbalance in the wings since one engine was shutdown and no way to transfer that fuel out of that wing?).  I&#8217;ll see what 3710 says about engine out requirements and how it pertains to F-18&#8217;s. 
 
and in another email- 
 
Pretty cut and dry according to NATOPS 3710.7T, which is the guiding 
operating manual for Naval Aviators to live by.  Should&#039;ve gone to North 
Island. 
 
Chapter 7, section 7.1.5.1 states:  &quot;Twin Engine Aircraft:  In the event of 
power failure or whenever an engine is stopped as a precaution on an 
aircraft that has two engines, the pilot in command shall land at the 
nearest suitable airfield, in terms of time, provided weather conditions, 
terrain, and facilities available indicate that a safe landing can be 
accomplished.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A commenter, who happens to be pilot, at another blog I write at wrote the following-</p>
<p>&quot;Classic case of get-home-itis. Pilot probably wanted to land at Miramar and be able to go home versus getting stuck in North Island while his plane gets repaired. Poor head work here by the pilot. Violated 3710.7T procedures which if I recall state that the pilot land at the nearest suitable airfield. I know there are some caveats to this rule (really applies to multi-engine prop). I&#039;m gonna have to look it up at work tomorrow. Curious as to why the MO got relieved. I know it mentions fuel leak but I would&#039;ve liked to have sen more details on that. In the Navy, if a plane ISN&#039;T leaking fuel, that&#039;s when it becomes a concern!!&quot;</p>
<p>Here&#039;s the link- <a href="http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash.php#comment-880707" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-" rel="nofollow">http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/03/03/marine-</a>&#8230;  </p>
<p>He also wrote me in a email-</p>
<p>I&rsquo;ll let you know what it says.  I&rsquo;ve been flying P-3&rsquo;s for 16 years so I&rsquo;m not familiar with F-18 specifics but if the tech manual does not call for the aircraft to be grounded, it&rsquo;s hard to fault the maintenance side.  I&rsquo;ll see if I can read the SIR and see if the fuel transfer issue was a contributing factor to the mishap.  If it wasn&rsquo;t, I don&rsquo;t see how their MO takes the heat for this.  Since he was relieved, I think it&rsquo;s safe to assume that the SIR probably links the fuel transfer issue to the mishap (probably caused a flameout of the second engine maybe or a lateral imbalance in the wings since one engine was shutdown and no way to transfer that fuel out of that wing?).  I&rsquo;ll see what 3710 says about engine out requirements and how it pertains to F-18&rsquo;s.</p>
<p>and in another email-</p>
<p>Pretty cut and dry according to NATOPS 3710.7T, which is the guiding</p>
<p>operating manual for Naval Aviators to live by.  Should&#039;ve gone to North</p>
<p>Island.</p>
<p>Chapter 7, section 7.1.5.1 states:  &quot;Twin Engine Aircraft:  In the event of</p>
<p>power failure or whenever an engine is stopped as a precaution on an</p>
<p>aircraft that has two engines, the pilot in command shall land at the</p>
<p>nearest suitable airfield, in terms of time, provided weather conditions,</p>
<p>terrain, and facilities available indicate that a safe landing can be</p>
<p>accomplished.&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: theotherguy</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287961</link>
		<dc:creator>theotherguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287961</guid>
		<description>Those are two separate paragraphs, put like that to make the reader jump to the assumption that the pilot just said &quot;screw it&quot;.  You of all people should know that the media doesn&#039;t exactly tell the truth &quot;straight&quot; and often tries to induce the reader to feel one way or the other. 
 
And I agree with the fact that his superiors with punished means they told him to return back to base.  Its WHEN they told him that matters. 
 
Totally agree on waiting till after the investigation is complete before trying to crucify him.  That was the entire point of my posts, people seem to want to join on the &quot;burn the pilot, charge him for murder, kill him NOW&quot; bandwagon based on a reporters interpretation of a handful of facts during an open investigation. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are two separate paragraphs, put like that to make the reader jump to the assumption that the pilot just said &quot;screw it&quot;.  You of all people should know that the media doesn&#039;t exactly tell the truth &quot;straight&quot; and often tries to induce the reader to feel one way or the other.</p>
<p>And I agree with the fact that his superiors with punished means they told him to return back to base.  Its WHEN they told him that matters.</p>
<p>Totally agree on waiting till after the investigation is complete before trying to crucify him.  That was the entire point of my posts, people seem to want to join on the &quot;burn the pilot, charge him for murder, kill him NOW&quot; bandwagon based on a reporters interpretation of a handful of facts during an open investigation. </p>
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		<title>By: The Marine Pilot Who Killed Dong Yun Yoon&#8217;s Family &#187; The Hub of Sparkle!</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287801</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marine Pilot Who Killed Dong Yun Yoon&#8217;s Family &#187; The Hub of Sparkle!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287801</guid>
		<description>[...] Well, it turns out the pilot is in real need of our prayers, as &#8220;the crash might have been averted&#8221; — Military jet had chance to land before fatal crash. Milblogger GI Korea suggests that &#8220;the Marines messed up big time on this&#8221; and saying of the pilot that &#8220;it appears he had two chances to avoid crashing in the residential area and ignored them&#8221; — Marine Corps punishes 13 for San Diego jet crash. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Well, it turns out the pilot is in real need of our prayers, as &#8220;the crash might have been averted&#8221; — Military jet had chance to land before fatal crash. Milblogger GI Korea suggests that &#8220;the Marines messed up big time on this&#8221; and saying of the pilot that &#8220;it appears he had two chances to avoid crashing in the residential area and ignored them&#8221; — Marine Corps punishes 13 for San Diego jet crash. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287781</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 12:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287781</guid>
		<description>Big time screw ups - more heads should role and the wing commander, if they have one in the Marines, should be fired.  No excuses on this one - leave the flying to the AF!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Big time screw ups &#8211; more heads should role and the wing commander, if they have one in the Marines, should be fired.  No excuses on this one &#8211; leave the flying to the AF!</p>
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		<title>By: theotherguy</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287747</link>
		<dc:creator>theotherguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 10:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287747</guid>
		<description>He didn&#039;t fly past NAS twice.  That is the thing, people are reading small parts of the article and extrapolating data that may or may not be true.  The airport gave him the option of attempting to land there, he declined because his superiors either ordered or &quot;suggested&quot; he land the jet at the marine base.  Remember that even though one engine was out, those jets can fly on a single engine (they often do) and that a double engine failure is considered &quot;extremely rare&quot;.  From the base guys point of view, a routine training flight, one engine had issues (it happens), return home and lets look at it.  On the way home, second engine starts to act up, superiors say &quot;hurry up&quot;, on the way, second engine failed.

I HIGHLY doubt he &quot;turned down&quot; the importunity to land at a safe base if the second engine was having problems.  And if read carefully it never mentions the second engine having issued BEFORE he made the choice to return to base (and therefor not land at NAS), only afterward.  A lot of people have stretched the scant facts out and built a straw house to implicate the pilot, making it sound like this guy did everything shy of aiming the plane at the house.  Also remember hindsight is 20/20, now we KNOW he couldn&#039;t make it back to the base, but at that exact moment the decision was made, based on the information available to HIM at THAT moment, that is the glass&#039;s you must see the situation through.  He didn&#039;t have mechanics out on his wings inspecting his aircraft during flight, he didn&#039;t have a recorder telling him he would crash if he didn&#039;t land at the civilian air port.  He only had his instrument panel, advice from superiors, and the knowledge that you can fly those jets home on one engine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He didn&#8217;t fly past NAS twice.  That is the thing, people are reading small parts of the article and extrapolating data that may or may not be true.  The airport gave him the option of attempting to land there, he declined because his superiors either ordered or &#8220;suggested&#8221; he land the jet at the marine base.  Remember that even though one engine was out, those jets can fly on a single engine (they often do) and that a double engine failure is considered &#8220;extremely rare&#8221;.  From the base guys point of view, a routine training flight, one engine had issues (it happens), return home and lets look at it.  On the way home, second engine starts to act up, superiors say &#8220;hurry up&#8221;, on the way, second engine failed.</p>
<p>I HIGHLY doubt he &#8220;turned down&#8221; the importunity to land at a safe base if the second engine was having problems.  And if read carefully it never mentions the second engine having issued BEFORE he made the choice to return to base (and therefor not land at NAS), only afterward.  A lot of people have stretched the scant facts out and built a straw house to implicate the pilot, making it sound like this guy did everything shy of aiming the plane at the house.  Also remember hindsight is 20/20, now we KNOW he couldn&#8217;t make it back to the base, but at that exact moment the decision was made, based on the information available to HIM at THAT moment, that is the glass&#8217;s you must see the situation through.  He didn&#8217;t have mechanics out on his wings inspecting his aircraft during flight, he didn&#8217;t have a recorder telling him he would crash if he didn&#8217;t land at the civilian air port.  He only had his instrument panel, advice from superiors, and the knowledge that you can fly those jets home on one engine.</p>
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		<title>By: Smoothbore</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287817</link>
		<dc:creator>Smoothbore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287817</guid>
		<description>A sad and bad deal for everyone. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sad and bad deal for everyone. </p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/03/03/marine-corps-punishes-13-for-san-diego-jet-crash/comment-page-1/#comment-287703</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=11709#comment-287703</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know Theotherguy, the fact that the pilot turned down two opportunities to land at North Island NAS seems like unnecessary risk taking in these events.  Not sure how long it takes to fly twice past North Island and then back to Mirimar, but I&#039;m betting the pilot and all involved had plenty of time to consider safely landing the plane at the NAS.  Since the Marines are disciplining people at this point, I think we can be sure that these guys screwed up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know Theotherguy, the fact that the pilot turned down two opportunities to land at North Island NAS seems like unnecessary risk taking in these events.  Not sure how long it takes to fly twice past North Island and then back to Mirimar, but I&#8217;m betting the pilot and all involved had plenty of time to consider safely landing the plane at the NAS.  Since the Marines are disciplining people at this point, I think we can be sure that these guys screwed up.</p>
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