By The Washington Post’s Thomas Ricks is picking a fight with the US military’s service academies:
Want to trim the federal budget and improve the military at the same time? Shut down West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Academy, and use some of the savings to expand ROTC scholarships.
After covering the U.S. military for nearly two decades, I’ve concluded that graduates of the service academies don’t stand out compared to other officers. Yet producing them is more than twice as expensive as taking in graduates of civilian schools ($300,000 per West Point product vs. $130,000 for ROTC student). On top of the economic advantage, I’ve been told by some commanders that they prefer officers who come out of ROTC programs, because they tend to be better educated and less cynical about the military.
This is no knock on the academies’ graduates. They are crackerjack smart and dedicated to national service. They remind me of the best of the Ivy League, but too often they’re getting community-college educations. [Thomas Ricks]
There is no way in hell this is going to happen, but Ricks does make a valid point that graduating from West Point does not necessarily make someone a more capable officer over a ROTC or OCS graduate. From my experience I have seen just as many good officers from each commissioning source and just as many dirt bags from each commissioning source.
One difference I have seen from my experience is that it seems more high quality West Point junior officers end up getting out of the military compared to their ROTC & OCS peers. I could be wrong, but I am interested to hear what other people have to say about this.
11:10 am on April 28th, 2009 1
This same argument surfaces from time to time and always dies a quiet death.
You may find that more West Point company grades get out because the "real" Army is so much unlike the one we experience over four years, whereas ROTC and especially OCS guys have already experienced more of what the Army is really like. The ideals and expectations just aren't the same. The average West Point grad expects to be a green-tab leader as much as possible and expects a higher moral-ethical environment. He becomes disenchanted when confronted with the liars, crooks, and politicians and decides he may as well face the same thing while making more money in the corporate world, or goes into Special Forces where he thinks it will be more of the profession he expected upon graduation.
Ricks' comments about community college educations threw me for a loop, though. If community college students have to bust their butts and stay up studying as late as I did six days a week, I'd hate to see what they go through at a public or private university. A simple way to disprove Ricks would be to take a sample of West Point, ROTC, and OCS scores on the GRE and see who wins.
11:33 am on April 28th, 2009 2
This is what happens when ROTC and OCS guys drink too much haterade. I've had so many bosses resent me because I was from West Point and they were not. Why? I don't know, I just know it's true.
I can tell you that over the past 11 years the only people I've been able to count on when the going gets tough are my fellow West Pointers, be they superiors, subordinates, or peers. They've been the only ones who listen to my problems and hold no prejudice against me. Most others are just fair-weather friends who are only there for you when it advances their own political ambitions. If it weren't for the shared experience of the West Point crucible, we'd just be out for ourselves like most of the others.
The day another West Pointer stabs me in the back is the day I'll resign.
1:44 pm on April 28th, 2009 3
"The day another West Pointer stabs me in the back is the day I’ll resign."
I don't understand. Arn't gyopos allowed into West Point?
4:39 pm on April 28th, 2009 4
I once had a fun 40 minute "ring knocker" bashathon with about 10 ROTC and OSC grads at the Fort Knox Officers club. The hatefest was especially funny when my good buddy walked in and informed them that I was a graduate. There was a long pregant pause and then the inevitable.."oh but you're not like them…" I'm not sure where the hate stems from, but a lot of them were playing catchup in the basic course, and a lot of WPs were coaching them along. The three sources of commission bring a lot of good into the Army, and all have their stinkers but I'm with Mark, academically very few ROTC grads and even fewer OCS (both early in their careers)grads have the quality classes that Academy graduates have.
12:07 am on April 29th, 2009 5
Yes, and you can see plenty of them partying in Seoul and cruising around in their European or Japanese luxury cars. But still, none of my gyopo West Point buddies have screwed me over personally…they just screw the system to their benefit. For example, a white guy can only stay in Korea a maximum of 5 consecutive years. Do a study on how many gyopos have beat that one.
12:34 am on April 29th, 2009 6
Yes I have heard the conversation of people bashing West Pointers but I'm sure there are groups of West Pointers doing the same thing about ROTC/OCS guys. I wouldn't get to worked up about it.
All three commissioning sources provide good officers into the military and I think Ricks is a bit harsh about the quality of education West Pointers receive.
3:18 am on April 29th, 2009 7
I think the amount of $300,000 to send someone through a military academy is way to low. The private academies like VMI and the Citadel seem to produce as good, if not better, (exculding Lt Davis) officers than the service academies. Instead of eliminating the three academies why not have just one that produces officers for all branches of the service.
It seems to me that most of the students that get selected for the service academies are sons/daughters of current or former military officers. Of course I may have this impression because I live/work on/around military bases/posts.
3:31 am on April 29th, 2009 8
You are a sorry MFing contemptable dirt bag, and exemplify why West Point needs to be abolished. Please tell me who you really are, so I can find you and punch you in the face. I hope you are stationed somewhere here in Korea so I can kick your ass. If not, please tell me where you are so I can hunt you down. I will take leave just to find you and choke some sense into you.
You have learned NOTHING in the past 11 years you have been in the service. If your core identity is "West Point" rather than with your fellow officers and Soldiers who toil in the service of the nation, regardless of their source of commissioning or education level, you are part of the problem. You are an arrogant, condescending prick, and may you be fragged by your own troops.
Having said all of that, I don't care what your commissioning source is. After 11 years in service, it really shouldn't matter. I will tell you from numerous years as an NCO and and officer however, the ones who generally have the hardest time as LTs are West Pointers. I have had to discipline more WPs than OCS or ROTC guys because as LTs they feel they have to make up for lost time partying. As a rule (and I am generalizing) WP officers have a sense of entitlement that causes them to become rapidly disenchanted with the rigours of military service. They have been fed a line of crap at school about how special they are, and some of them actually believe it. Welcome to the real world.
The folks from West Point, or for that matter, any other commissioning source, who succeed in the Army are the ones who's core identity is built upon selfless service to the nation and the core values of the United States Army. If you have been in the United States Army for 11 years and you are STILL hung-up on your commissioning source, I recommend you leave the Army and find another organization to belong to who isn't charged with the defense of the nation. In the volatile world we live in, you lack the maturity to lead Soliders in combat, and are a detriment to those who you serve with.
4:08 am on April 29th, 2009 9
8:02 am on April 29th, 2009 10
Any idea of closing any of the military academies will be squashed. They are too much of an institution and entrenched in the military system ever to be abolished.
Academy grads have that attitude of I'm better than you. Granted, there are some that treat people as people not as tools to be used for their puroposes, but a vast majority are stuck on themselves.
As a former NCO, I liked the OCS and the ROTC officers, they tended to at least act like a human being and seem somewhat concerned when you came to them with problems.
One can always spot an academy grad, just look for the ring, they never take it off.
8:40 am on April 29th, 2009 11
Chef Antwon, I wish you were able to talk to some of my former subordinates…you would see that is not the case. Most of us are humble and put Soldiers' welfare before personal ambition.
Surprise, surprise! I'm a prior-enlisted West Pointer and the guys in my battery would often come to me before even going to their NCO's for help, which kinda pissed off my 1SG.
Wrong. So many guys spent so many thousands of dollars on their rings that they only wear it with Class A's, Blues, or off-duty. Mine is battle-scarred and beat down because I never take it off, but I also only paid a couple hundred bucks for it.
9:52 am on April 29th, 2009 12
AS YOU WERE!!!! Officers (Gentlemen by act of Congress) Must I remind you that the OPC (Officer Protection Society) forbids arguements between officers in public. I may be retired but I still outrank BOTH OF YOU! You never know who may read this forum – even enlisted have been know to be computer literate. I recall breaking up an arguement between two enlisted wives once. Even got a positive remark on my OER about that.
10:14 am on April 29th, 2009 13
After having read this thread, coronel, I was reminded that I made the right decision when my commanding officer tried to persuade me to remain in the military; I opted for the helicopter on the flight deck and a ticket to the civilian world. I am also thankful I did my stint during the Reagan era.
On a different note, one of my colleagues is a West Point grad, Mark; I am quite impressed with the man. He is humble, even if I think he leans a little too far to the left.
10:41 am on April 29th, 2009 14
So many stereotypes… (FWIW, ROTC grad.)
As an Army LT, I have LT friends from all three commissioning sources. Based on my (limited) experience from my BOLC class (formerly known as OBC), WP'ers are slightly more likely to be party types, have a slightly greater chance to be PITA's, and are slightly more competent than your average ROTC grad. I think this is because WP's atmosphere causes some candidates to drop out that would have done fine in ROTC, and ROTC allows some candidates through that it probably shouldn't.
I'd be very interested to know the 4yr officer retain rates of WP vs. ROTC.
10:58 am on April 29th, 2009 15
Chase, after 4 years it would be about 99% because we have to do 5 years minimum.
However, after that 5th year, only about 60-70% of USMA continue on; I think ROTC is much higher.
Some good links for further study <a href="http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=West+Point+ROTC+officer+retention+years" rel="nofollow">here.
11:53 am on April 29th, 2009 16
One of the most famous generals of the last century, George Marshall, went to VMI not West Point. Marshall was also Sec. of Defense and State in the Truman administration.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
12:11 pm on April 29th, 2009 17
After having read this thread, coronel, I was reminded that I made the right decision when my commanding officer tried to persuade me to remain in the military; I opted for the helicopter on the flight deck and a ticket to the civilian world. I am also thankful I did my stint during the Reagan era.
IN SEOUL
You make a good point about the helicopter. One of the best weapon systems we have. Your commanding officer failed you son. I just wish you were under my command during your service time. I would have molded you into a real Soldier and had you singing the R-enlistment GI Blues. I always tried to motivate my men to re-up and make it twenty. My evaluations often mentioned my ability to motivate subordinates. The big pay raise Commander-in-Chief Reagan gave us in 82 was one of the points I used to motivate my men to re-up.
BTW – you mispelled Colonel but I never expected or required enlisted to be great at English. NCOs are the backbone and officers are the brains.
1:20 pm on April 29th, 2009 18
BTW – you mispelled Colonel but I never expected or required enlisted to be great at English. NCOs are the backbone and officers are the brains.
Colonel, you misspelled misspell. To err, sir, is human. By the way Colonel, I have a master’s degree from a good university as I’m sure you also do.
1:25 pm on April 29th, 2009 19
Is it true that in VMI/WP they initate freshmen by putting a frozen hotdog in their bum and wait until its warm enough to chew, then another freshman must munch on it?
1:26 pm on April 29th, 2009 20
2:08 pm on April 29th, 2009 21
Cause if it true…. sign me up
2:35 pm on April 29th, 2009 22
As you were, Colonel!
While some enlisted have been known to be computer literate, a much smaller percentage of officers may be able to claim the same (outside PowerPoint proficiency, that is). This is regardless of the individuals' path to commissioning.
2:50 pm on April 29th, 2009 23
I'm CPOF literate; does that count?
10:34 pm on April 29th, 2009 24
I received most of my education through military schools. The military only recently (70's) started requiring degrees for its active officers. I fully support education in our younger Soldiers and a lot of my OERs mention how strongly I support education in subordinates. I think it helps keep younger subordinates busy and out of trouble, and allows them time to mature. However, I'm not sure if it helps older folks or not. They are too set in their ways. Once in a while you may get an educated subordinate that is not a good follower, but this only happend to me during the draft and Vietnam. The best thing to do with these college boys was to discharge them, make them an officer, or put them on point. I am glad to hear of your high academic achievements and this just goes to show where your old CO failed when he or she let you separate from the service. You sound like OCS material to me!
10:59 pm on April 29th, 2009 25
Thank you Colonel. I’m sure you were a fine senior officer and served your country well. I’m well aware of the sacrifice career soldiers make for their country. I served in the navy, Sixth Fleet—Lebanon 1983.
8:43 am on June 26th, 2009 26
Well, Mr. Ricks, US News and World Report named the United States Military Academy at West Point THE NUMBER ONE public university in the United States. So, I'm not sure how that fits in with your ROTC being "better educated."
It seems to me that you make a lot of generalizations and "I've been told…" statements. How does that add up to anything except an opinion? Back it up with facts, if you can, sir. I'm willing to bet that you can't.
8:53 am on June 26th, 2009 27
Here's the US News and World Report Link just in case you doubt my facts. By the way, Navy is #2!!
colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/liberal-arts-top-public
11:39 am on July 28th, 2009 28
I think you all are a bit harsh here. I am a Cadet that attends West Point and I can tell you right now that no cadet at the Academy feels that they are better than anyone else. We all know that it takes an individual to make a great officer. Commissioning sources and schools don't develop good officers. Half the faculty at West Point (many 05s and 06s) are not Academy grads. Most of my teachers have all been OCS and ROTC officers, and some direct as well. I respect each and everyone of them. I don't care about where they earned their commissions, and I certainly wouldn't care about that when I get into the Army. My father is an 06 (possible promotable) and received his commission from ROTC. My grandfather was an 05 who earned his commissioning through OCS. I know one Colonel who graduated from West Point that never wore his ring because he didn't want to be identified as a West Point graduate. My loyalties are with the Army and the soldiers in it.
And a note to Mark: At the Academy, you are far more likely to be back stabbed by a fellow classmate. They designed it that way… not us. I guess it's all about taking ownership.
11:42 am on July 28th, 2009 29
Yeah…do they still make you guys do forced distribution for military grades?
12:33 pm on July 28th, 2009 30
No, they don't do that anymore. Depending on the company, they may have a limit on the number of A's they can give out.
11:36 am on January 26th, 2010 31
who the hell do you think you are bashing your enlisted " you mispelled Colonel but I never expected or required enlisted to be great at English. NCOs are the backbone and officers are the brains." officers are not what i would call the brains, i had one wimp out on us after getting hit, well guess what i was next to him and went down, i was back out that week, he had "stress." it is the fault of these officers that the enlisted are getting out, we are not morons, most get college degrees after, we work harder and longer, and we do well in school, any single one of you wanna compare test scores or GPAs just let me know.
4:05 pm on January 26th, 2010 32
Are they still doing BOLC II? If you think west point officers don't think they are better, wait until you go to BOLC II and you are in a platoon with west pointers outnumbering OCS/ROTC. You will feel it, and the stories about "buckner" never stop coming. I guess it's their way of trying to convince ROTC guys they went through something tough. In my experiences (4 years active) there is a hesitation for west point to accept their fellow officers as peers (early 2LT) but as you move along to Captain no one really gives a dang. I can understand how that comes about.. in 4 years at west point I'm sure they pump you full of self righteous holier than thou stories of west point glory.. but when you get to your first duty station you quickly realize that the Soldiers and NCOs determine your success or failure. No officer gets a good OER if the Soldiers don't back him/her up.
4:12 pm on January 26th, 2010 33
10:08 am on January 27th, 2010 34
The problem i have is to hear these great officers talking down about enlisted, when I have seen more officers go coward in the infantry. Of course I wont go officer, I dont have a choice, 3 hits later, and I was medically discharged for my injuries, that officer got a bronze star for his "bravery" (every Lt in the battalion got one) and i got a medical discharge for a broken hip, thats a great officer right there.
5:36 am on April 8th, 2010 35
Many of the Long Gray Line have earned fame and fortune and many have faded away without selfish notice. To the west Pointer who serves well our country owes respect. To the West Pointer who ill serves we ask separation from service. The Academy instills Duty, Honor and Country to those who honor its tradition.