By Here is some huge news for everyone who hasn’t heard yet:
Former President Roh Moo-hyun, long beleaguered by bribery allegations, jumped to his death off a cliff behind his home in southern South Korea Saturday after leaving a brief suicide note to his family, his lawyer and police said.
Roh, who served a five-year term that ended in February 2008, threw himself from a precipice 30 meters high early Saturday morning while hiking behind his rural residence in Bongha Village, about 450 kilometers south of Seoul, they said.
Roh, 62, was immediately rushed to Pusan National University Hospital, where he was pronounced dead from external head injuries at 9:30 a.m., according to hospital doctors and police.
In a suicide note left on his personal computer just an hour before he left home, Roh spoke of emotional suffering, the Gyeongnam Provincial Police Agency said in a briefing.
“I’m indebted to too many people. The pain that I caused to so many people is too great. The pain in the coming days is unfathomable,” Roh said in the note disclosed by police.
“Due to my frail health, I cannot do anything. I cannot read or write. Don’t be too sad. Don’t blame anyone. Life and death are identical parts of nature. It’s fate,” the note said. It also conveyed his desire to be cremated and that a small headstone be set up near his home.
Police said they were still investigating Roh’s death to determine if in fact it was a suicide. [Yonhap]
As anyone following this blog knows, I did not like Roh Moo-hyun’s policies while he was president of Korea. He was a demagogue that flaunted anti-Americanism to get elected and then is found out later to have purchased a home in New York with funds acquired through corrupt means. He also put great strain on the US-ROK alliance, openly combated with President Bush at public events, sent massive aid to North Korea with nothing in return, and allowed North Korean spies and agitators to run amok in Korea during his Presidency. I could go on and on.
However, there are attributes one should admire about Roh. He was a political nobody that elected to the President of Korea by true democratic means. He was an outsider that didn’t rely on family or chaebol connections to get himself elected. He had tremendous good will on his side when he was elected and survived impeachment. He was set up to do good things and he squandered it due to his ideology. That is probably the greatest disappointment about Roh. With that all said this is still shocking to see that Roh committed suicide. I offer my condolences to Roh’s family. I’ll have more on this as updates occur.
In the mean time you can read more over at the Marmot’s Hole and One Free Korea.
4:56 am on May 23rd, 2009 1
Sorry, but in the time of one's death many want to be "nice".
As President, the guy was just 100% f***up!
He was just not cut out for the job and he admitted that on many occasions while threatening to resign.
His presidency only hurt Koreans on both sides of the DMZ.
I know that's not what he intended, but he never did the most honest thing he should have done- choose not to run for President!
I take no joy in his death, but I shed no tears either.
9:04 am on May 23rd, 2009 2
[...] the other hand I am in awe of GIKorea who, despite being, arguably, the biggest Anti-Roh voice in K-Blogland, offers a dignified and [...]
8:37 am on May 23rd, 2009 3
I think you can separate the man from the presidency. Roh didn't seem to personally be an evil guy. Roh was a leftist ideologue that got in over his head when he became President. I think everything he did to include his pro-North policies he did because he thought it was the right thing to do. I disagree and I think history has shown that Roh was wrong with his policies.
I actually think even Roh at some point realized what he thought was the right thing to do was taken advantage of by the leftist ideologues he surrounded himself with. That is why I think he considered resigning so often but the people around him kept convincing him to stay in office so they could continue running all the schemes they had going on.
The schemes were starting to come to light and now Roh is dead and probably a lot of the leftist ideologues that surrounded him are probably relieved the investigations will probably die with him as well.
8:45 am on May 23rd, 2009 4
I shed no tears either but he didn't hurt me, dude. Korean presidents are a sorry lot, but you cannot deny that he was the most democratic of all if that means anything to you.
Say whatever you want. Just don't presume overmuch, huh?
11:30 am on May 23rd, 2009 5
I was similarly somewhat ambivalent when I saw the news at One Free Korea's. When I saw it, I immediately called my wife in and told her to look at the Korean news without telling her exactly what she'd find and I left her with it.
That gave me a little time to reflect, and I was a little surprised I was fairly neutral on the news:
What got me was trying to think of any long-term legacy Roh had left after leaving office…
He and his people pissed me off over the years with their common anti-US habit. He also strained the alliance. But, what has it changed?
Nothing really. Roh was a symptom of anti-US habits in South Korean society, not a primary cause of them. USFK is still here – still in Seoul and near the DMZ — and the plans and agreements to reform USFK's structure predated Roh.
He and his crew also pissed me off at times with their North Korea rhetoric and actions, but again, the Sunshine Policy pre-dated him, and he didn't establish anything that hasn't been or isn't being undone.
So — if he hadn't killed himself, I'd expect that 20 to 50 years from now, he'd just be like a fair number of presidents in the US — whose names you might have heard of but have no clue what they did or how they thought…
By biggest knock against Roh is that Korea needed a much better president at that point in history: It was the first time a president was going to be elected who was not one of the big, major players during the period of authoritarian rule. It was a big chance for Korean democracy to solidify a positive tradition —- and the voters blew it – and Roh turned out to be a disaster….
….but…..did he do any lasting damage? damage that would have been pretty much wholly avoided if the GNP had won or some other candidate?
I can't really see where he did….
12:40 pm on May 23rd, 2009 6
The left will be looking for a summer rallying call for their annual street protests. Don’t be surprised if they use this as an issue. The rallying call may be as follows: The conservative government and their minions are responsible for pushing former President Roh to commit suicide; down with 2MB!
It would come as no surprise to see them envision such a twisted view of reality or stoop so low as to propagate such an idea. They have run low on fuel for their fire, and summer is almost upon us, or shall I say ‘protest season.’
1:02 pm on May 23rd, 2009 7
Well said and "did he do any lasting damage?" Remains to be seen.
1:27 pm on May 23rd, 2009 8
Perhaps he ate too much American Beef and contracted CJD and this led to his superman omage.
3:59 pm on May 23rd, 2009 9
He did actually commit suicide out of shame. Compared with the likes of Syngman Rhee and Chun Doo-hwan whom even YOU wouldn't want as your leaders, democratically elected or otherwise, he let us protest loudly and foulmouthedly, perhaps misapprehending that it is a symptom of a democratic society. For that alone I'm ready to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Rest in peace anyway. I'm pretty sure your private heaven is a place without so-called reactionary bigots.
4:52 pm on May 23rd, 2009 10
"…he let us protest loudly and foulmouthedly, perhaps misapprehending that it is a symptom of a democratic society."
Perhaps that’s true; however, I don’t remember any ‘significant’ protests that ran contrary to his political and ideological agenda. I suspect this is because the left/progressives are the experts at street protests.
11:17 pm on May 23rd, 2009 11
…and right/conservatives are such experts at suppressing 'em, by brute force if necessary?
I suppose a dichotomized view of reality such as above could be rather comforting to some. Personally I couldn't care less. Too moronic for my libertarian sensitivities, you know.
Btw. are you afraid of getting caught up in street protests or something? Come to think of it, I read a story about this stupid Japanese guy who was careless enough to be beaten up by overzealous riot police recruits in Dongdaemun. And the rest you can guess. As they say, there's nothing like bad publicity to keep the presi-ro-dent in check!
8:50 am on May 24th, 2009 12
Where did I mention I am wholly on the side of Korean conservatives? Additionally, your president—the man you call “presi-ro-dent”—was elected by a democratic majority. The way you demean the man seems to indicate to me that you have little respect for the democratic system when it does not favour the person you want to see in office. I don’t particularly ‘like’ the current president of my own country, but I don’t violently take to the streets to keep him “in check!” I express my opinion through elected representatives. Nor do I childishly insult people I do not know by calling them “moronic.” I assume that by “liberated sensitivities” you mean your sense of moral superiority based on your own created paradigm of righteousness.
10:04 am on May 24th, 2009 13
> I assume by“liberated sensitivities”you mean your sense of moral superiority based on your own created paradigm of righteousness.
You put Cho-Joong-Dong to shame. Pray read the phrase again carefully. Better still, read some good ol' Heinlein and come back to me later if you'd like to discuss my sensitivities. Have no fear, I'll be nice.
You made my day, by the way. I'm not a nitpicker, but "liberated," my aunt!
>“presi-ro-dent”
Got this from my leftist high school buddy who coined the word for a rally. I must confess I love it. Great sense of pun…for a misguided lefty!
10:17 am on May 24th, 2009 14
I won’t waste my keystrokes.
10:40 am on May 24th, 2009 15
Yeah, you shouldn't. But out of respect for someone who took the trouble to comment on a personal eulogy, I hereby grant you links that are just a click away.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinlein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Seriously, I wish you read some Heinlein before deigning to liberate other people's minds. Whether you subscribe to the old man's classic views or not, he will take that damning Korean rigidity out of you and make you start thinking about….conflicting morals and wars and aliens and different sexual mores and lots, lots more. Hey, it also beats reading Kropotkin!
12:41 pm on May 24th, 2009 16
Slightly off-topic… but within this posting lies the answer to one of America's biggest problems… and, oddly, one of Korea's strengths.
"I don’t particularly ‘like’ the current president of my own country, but I don’t violently take to the streets to keep him “in check!” I express my opinion through elected representatives."
That's it! Americans have forgotten that it is demonstrations (with the possibility of violence) that keeps democracy on its path.
Without an occasional display of "people power" to remind the government who is actually in charge, "democracy" simply becomes a tool of the ruling elite to remain in power as they present us with cookie-cutter candidates to "elect"… who enact vocally different, but functionally similar, policies which are not designed to benefit average Americas too glued to the teevee to even think of demonstrating against them.
Demonstrations in Korea are good… if they sincerely represent the will of the People and aren't organized by political forces for political reasons…
…something to remember as the "Free Speech Zones" in America get smaller and smaller.
12:58 pm on May 24th, 2009 17
Are you advocating ‘violent’ demonstrations?
1:59 pm on May 24th, 2009 18
I have no intention of shedding a drop of tear otver his death. Former pres. kill himeven self? What kind of example will it give to young people? Only cowards commit suicide. People should not forget that he was under investigation for bribery.He couldn't face his sad reality as more evidence against him continued to surface,which meant that his arrest was not far off.He killed himself to ecape responsibilities for his crimes & to save his family bcus his death meant an automatic stop to the investigations.Well,now his commie family will live happily in a NY Manhattan Penthouse with dirty millions in bank account
2:28 pm on May 24th, 2009 19
It's wrong of me, I do believe that, but I can't care about the bribery angle in Roh's story: — it's just too common in Korea.
I think they really need to reform it, but given its scope, I can't look at the amount of money I've heard mention concerning Roh and get upset about it much at all.
I mean — as far as I know — professors in Korea still have to give a wad of cash in an envelop to the head of the department if he wants a job — and from what Koreans told me, we're talking about $20,000 or $30,000 for it.
And maybe this next one has been reformed, but in the late 1990s and early 2000s, primary and secondary school teachers were generally considered to take bribes from parents…
When it is that pervasive in the culture — how much can I get angry at Roh for the level of money he took?
3:15 pm on May 24th, 2009 20
i understand ur point. but my point is, regardless of cultural as pect or how little he took compared to his predecessors, taking bribery is still an indictable crime as long as it is so written in the law. If we r to start considering the amount, how much bribery would be deemed a crime for a president and how much would be for a low rank public officer? and who gets to decide that? Every country or society has rules. Rules must be followed no matter what. Otherwise, chaos would follow in no time and it affects everbody, especially the innocent, law abiding ones.
3:49 am on May 25th, 2009 21
In Seoul,
"Are you advocating ‘violent’ demonstrations?"
Obviously I am walking on dangerous ground… as it is the innocent-sounding one-sentence questioners who lay the most cunning and elegant traps.
Allow me to answer with a highly-qualified "maybe".
Read closely what I stated before…
"Americans have forgotten that it is demonstrations (with the possibility of violence) that keeps democracy on its path. "
I am a firm believer in sincere demonstrations of the people to remind the government of their true priorities when national leadership goes astray.
Demonstrations are all well and good, but their power increases exponentially when the government is aware that a peaceful demonstration can turn violent if not handled to the satisfaction of the population. This is especially true in matters with wide public support.
Responsible citizens must be very selective when and how to use this violence… as importing American beef and removing a military dictatorship do not warrant the same level of hostility.
Further, the targets of this violence must be specifically selected to accomplish the goal… looting shops and burning random cars are equivalent to terrorism and are counterproductive in gaining active support from an angry but largely lethargic population.
The American public no longer holds serious demonstrations for a large list of reasons… a major one being that they have been kept fat, dumb and happy.
This would be well and good if hadn't been on conjured money… meaning that, without some fantastic financial magic, American citizens may suffer some hard times… and, at that point, they will begin to question what exactly Washington is doing… and if Washington keeps looking after everyone but John Q. Public, Mr. Public might demonstrate… and while he might be willing to make a sacrifice or two, if he still feels national resources are going everywhere but to him, it might get violent on a national level… and the government might be forced to recognize its true purpose.
And that might be something I would support.
4:30 am on May 25th, 2009 22
Just like the division of the North and South there is a distinct and absolute division of political party's in the South. It's an endless cycle where when one gets in power they take all they can and when the other gains power they do the same. They will not give either one an inch to save their lives, they are just brutal to each other.
How and why is this distasteful political system still thriving in South Korea? It's all about the man up North. When a people and a country are split apart the psychological impact is devastating. I think in SK you've got people who want a democracy and don't mind having allies like the US but then there's so many that eat, drink, and sleep about KOREA, KOREA, KOREA no matter if it's the North or the South. It's this division that keeps this endless cycle churning, without a resolution in the upcoming years I believe this will ultimately destroy their country and their culture.
8:26 am on May 25th, 2009 23
I understand your point, Chickenhead. However, I think that Gandhi and Martin Luther King chose the best way of dealing with bad government policy or simply bad government. I think your right when you make the following statement: “The American public no longer hold serious demonstrations for a large list of reasons…a major one being that they have been kept fat, dumb and happy.” My gripe was with C.T. Myung, who appears to be one of the hard left Korean protesters. It appears that often these types of people participate in these violent, destabilizing government protests simply out of ideological motivation. I don’t think you would place yourself in this category.
2:04 pm on May 25th, 2009 24
Wow, stop with unwarranted assumptions! Why are you categorizing politically liberal Koreans as types of people who would participate in violent, destabilizing government protests? Honestly, you just made a pretty powerful statement without much proof at all to support it. These people protest, sometimes at length, but in general they are far from violent. Obviously, with tens of thousands of people protesting, there may be some over-zealous people out there that might become violent and out of control. Naturally, these are the people that you watch in the news and thus people like you may assume that the protests are more violent than they actually are in reality. But if you insist, as someone that lives by Seoul, I can assure you that these protests are often civil even if they are passionate at times.
More importantly, what makes you think that these government protests are adversely destabilizing? I agree that the protests may have some destabilizing effect, but surely you know, as an educated person, that temporary destabilization is not necessarily harmful. The American Revolution was temporarily destabilizing, but no one argues that it should not have happened! That said, I think it is important to understand the true character of the liberal movement that is going on right now in Korea. Unlike the US, Korea has a very short history of democracy. True democracy has only been in place in Korea for about 20 years. Needless to say, for many people the days under strict and aritrary government oppression are still fresh and painful in memory. This may be the reason that Koreans seem to be over-reacting in the eyes of many foreigners.
2:32 pm on May 25th, 2009 25
“Why are you categorizing politically liberal Koreans as types of people who would participate in violent, destabilizing government protests?”
S.K., I’m not categorizing ‘all’ Korean political liberals as participants in violent, destabilizing government protests.
“Honestly, you just made a pretty powerful statement without much proof at all to support it."
I have seen these things with my own eyes.
“But if you insist, as someone that lives by Seoul, I can assure you that these protests are often civil even if they are passionate at times.”
I agree, I have seen this also.
“More importantly, what makes you think that these government protests are adversely destabilizing?”
The beef protests rattled the government, S.K.
“…for many people the days under strict and arbitrary government oppression are still fresh and painful in memory.”
I understand this and sympathize with Koreans on this point. Additionally, there are a number of significant issues I can agree with liberals on. However, it seems to me that many in the liberal movement in Korea have still not gotten beyond the 1980s. Hopefully, you will continue to be a good voice for those who have.
12:17 pm on May 26th, 2009 26
>you cannot deny that he was the most democratic of all if that means anything to you.
Problem is the point. He and his era talks the average of the Koreans.
12:33 pm on May 26th, 2009 27
Why don't USA stop accepting immigrants from Korea?
They will never be your friends. You know that.
2:03 pm on May 26th, 2009 28
“He and his era talks the average of the Koreans.”
‘He and the people of his era speak for the average contemporary Korean.’
Response: He doesn’t speak for my wife and son, AJT; so does that mean they are not average Koreans?
“Why don’t USA stop accepting immigrants from Korea? They will never be friends. You know that?”
Hmmm, you are going to have to help me with this, AJT. Are you saying Gerry believes this, or do you believe it? You seem a little egocentric to me. It’s as if you believe you speak for most, if not all, Koreans.
3:42 pm on May 26th, 2009 29
Did anybody catch the post by Sonagi over at Marmot's Hole today?
The bodyguard supposedly has changed his story and now says he didn't actually witness the suicide because he was escorting someone else down the hill. BAMMM…all kinds of questions. Who was it he escorted down? Why was he derelict in his duty as he is Presidential Security Service (same as US Secret Service). All kinds of rumors floating on Korean internet: He was recently assigned. He was appointed by aides. Nothing substantiated…just rumors. Why did Roh who signed up for organ donation specify in his note to be cremated? Why would Roh ask his wife to come on the hike if he was going to commit suicide? Why was the note only on the screen and NOT saved nor printed? AGAIN ALL OF THESE ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED … I REPEAT THEY ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED …
The point though is that these rumors of a conspiracy theory start all kinds of negative things in motion. Who did it? Irrational thinkers would love to put it on LMB and you guessed it — the US. Anyone here remember 2002 anti-American hatefest that swept Roh into office? Anyone remember the Anti-American hate-fest of 2003?
All just rumors and supposition now. Stay tuned.
4:30 pm on May 26th, 2009 30
According to the Hankyoreh, the Cheong Wa Dae bodyguard from the Presidential Security Service (same as US Secret Service) could confirm whereabouts during Roh's final moments, In addition, the police have secured the radio communication report of the bodyguard saying"I cannot see him" and have opened up a reinvestgiation of Roh's last morning. The main point though is that there were OTHERS involved who knew the true story as the radio communication was received by someone. A conspiracy theory is starting to form.
It was confirmed that there was no bodyguard present when the former President Roh Moo-hyun committed suicide on May 23. Accordingly, police have launched a reinvestigation of what the former president was doing on the day of suicide. "It may be that the bodyguard sent by the Cheong Wa Dae was not present when the former president threw himself from 'Owl Rock,'" an official of the Cheong Wa Dae (the presidential office in South Korea or Blue House) said on Tuesday. "The bodyguard failed to find him and created a false story," the official added.
A police official said, "The bodyguard has changed his account of his whereabouts several times, and we have summoned him again to the South Gyungsang Police Agency for further questioning." The police have secured the content of a radio communications report to the Cheong Wa Dae in which the bodyguard said, "I missed him. I cannot see him." Another police official confirmed the content, but said, "We do not know when the radio communication took place. We will find that out through further investigation." (Source: Hankyoreh.)
According to a Joins news article on 27 May (in Hangul) and Hankyoreh (in English), the bodyguard who accompanied the late former President Roh Moo-hyun on his hike has recanted his story and stated that he was not with Roh at the time of his fall. The bodyguard claimed that he was escorting another hiker down the hill and returned to discover Roh missing. (NOTE: Other stories state he was sent on an errand to the nearby Buddhist Temple.) Investigators are trying to sort out the truth among conflicting statements given by the bodyguard. The circumstances are VERY strange as the bodyguard is part of the Presidential Security Service (equivalent to the US Secret Service) and provide protection for the former President under a 1963 law.
According to Yonhap News the death of former President Roh Moo-hyun will be entirely reinvestigated, as the sole security guard who accompanied him on his last hike was found to have lied about the details surrounding his death. A regional police chief in charge of the probe told reporters it has been confirmed that Roh jumped to his death from a mountainside cliff in the absence of the security guard. The body guard, identified only by his family name Lee, had initially claimed that he personally witnessed Roh plunging from the 30-meter-high "Owl Rock," just behind the late Roh's residence in Bongha Village, Gimhae, about 450 kilometers southeast of Seoul.
4:59 pm on May 26th, 2009 31
They better make something good come out of this because if the opposition parties start hating each other even more it's going to destroy them. Kim Jong Il must be loving this.
5:16 pm on May 26th, 2009 32
Read another contradictory blurp in the Korea Herald. Roh supposedly went to the small temple BEFORE he went to the cliff. The police explanation as offered in the Yonhap News goes in the toilet if this is true.
Hope somebody in the police publishes the agreed-upon real story soon. No wonder the Korean internet is going wild with all the stories and possible conspiracy theories.
BUT REMEMBER THAT ONE FACT IS NOT DENIED. The bodyguard was in radio contact with SOMEONE (UNKNOWN) where he stated that he could not see Roh. This means that there are others involved in the coverup story. This is not over…
Just let it simmer and see what they come up with next.
11:48 pm on May 26th, 2009 33
I always say ask ten different Koreans what color the sky is and you'll get ten different answers — and sometimes many more.
5:08 am on May 27th, 2009 34
He seems to have been killed by someone. There are so many unclear things before and after his downfall. His bodyguard did not act properly according to the basic life-saving procedures, whereas his statements have been proved to be lies.
Please help this conspiracy be traced and reasoned.
From Seoul, Korea
11:16 am on May 27th, 2009 35
LOL, I love a good conspirocy. For some reason humans can't stay away from thinking there's more to be told. I grew up with them in the 1950s, and have watched as people ate them up for the last 50 years.
And now, for the rest of the story………
11:24 am on May 27th, 2009 36
Who told about your family?
He was elected by the democratic election. It was the Korean people's will.
What I pointed out was the will.
Korea has many populations. It is impossible to talk about all people.
You seem a little childish.
1:43 pm on May 27th, 2009 37
If it was murder, it was pretty poorly planned… with an ever-changing bodyguard story and an insincere-sounding suicide note.
but…
Tip to police: Check for missing persons in the area… especially ones who might have been on a morning hike.
After tossing Roh off the cliff, nothing would screw up a good cover story like discovering a witness staring up at you from the trail. That would require some time to take care of… and a new story quickly thought up under stressful conditions.
3:55 am on May 28th, 2009 38
get a job loser or join rok army become katusa
4:02 am on May 28th, 2009 39
yankee go home get the hell, out of my country
4:22 am on May 28th, 2009 40
baby come home plz
7:07 am on May 28th, 2009 41
Conspiracy??? Give me a break. The man was a loser who died a coward's death. His suicide fits his character perfectly. His every instinct as president was to cave in to any aggression, whether it was from Taliban or North Korea. An honorable man would've fought the charges and defended himself.
7:29 am on May 28th, 2009 42
"the bodyguard who accompanied the late former President Roh Moo-hyun on his hike has recanted his story and stated that he was not with Roh at the time of his fall. The bodyguard claimed that he was escorting another hiker down the hill and returned to discover Roh missing."
Gee, those words sound awfully familiar.
8:30 am on May 28th, 2009 43
You missed my point. I was simply stating that many of his political views and his ideology do not represent ‘all’ Koreans.
“Childish”: You shouldn’t demean people simply because they do not share your ‘opinions.’
8:45 am on May 28th, 2009 44
You sound very angry and unhappy, and your comment sounds very racist. You appear to be a person who would complain if Americans were to make the following statement to Koreans living in the United States: Koreans go home; get the hell out of our country. Your hypocrisy is ironic.
1:09 pm on May 28th, 2009 45
Gerry: so you must have gotten a kick out of that whole crazy watergate thing – am I right? and those nutty people who didn't buy into bush's wmd's. Buncha kooks…
1:15 pm on May 28th, 2009 46
Wow do you want to say that there were not the German characters under the rule by Hittler?
We talk about the national character and the political culture. Must I say such a premitive matter?
Problem is not only Roh's policies, but also the thing which they are still stood by the Koreans.
Under the politics of democracy, nobody can escape from the political responsibilities.
Yeah surely Korea is a democratic state. So, all evils happens in Korea are caused by the Koreans themselves.
1:20 pm on May 28th, 2009 47
Gerry: so you must have gotten a kick out of that whole crazy watergate thing – am I right? and those nutty people who didn’t buy into bush’s wmd’s. Buncha kooks…
1:29 pm on May 28th, 2009 48
If all you have to offer are attacks on the man's character, perhaps you could leave them until after the funeral services. A little civility might be appropriate under the circumstances, don't you think?
1:36 pm on May 28th, 2009 49
I don't believe "Watergate" was ever a conspirocy "theory" as it was reporting directly as to what happened and where it came from. It was investigative reporting. It was a revelation of a dirty deed. Not a "theory". "Bush's WMDs" were not a "conspirocy theory" either as the previous president and the current secretary of state, along with presidential candidates, senators and house members all told us the same thing. They "all" told us Sadam had WMDs. All were briefed by the same intel offices that the president got his information from. A conspirocy from whom? I prefer to call it poor government.
1:40 pm on May 28th, 2009 50
Lol, hell hath no fury like a humorless Korean nationalist.
I'm not Korean, BTW, punk.
2:09 pm on May 28th, 2009 51
So let's begin by with the spelling – we are talking about a conspiracy. Here is the definition:
"an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot". So if Watergate doesn't fit the definition of a conspiracy, I'm not sure what does.
Further, Bush/Cheney & co.s attempts to convince the public of the existence of wmd's w/o any verifiable evidence (and the subsequent attempts to discredit those who did not support their claims – including, but not limited to, Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson) does in fact meet the criteria for a conspiracy. But you can check with Scooter on that if you need clarification.
There is always some guy around to chuckle and guffaw about the "theory", until someone bothers to investigate the facts. There are many discrepancies in the Roh story – the official account has changed on a daily basis – people have reason and a right to question what actually happened. At the very least, there was a conspiracy by the bodyguard and his superiors to cover-up the fact that the guy wasn't on the job. The rest of the story shoud be investigated as well.
But then again, you grew up in the 50's, so you must know better than I.
2:18 pm on May 28th, 2009 52
I’m thoroughly confused by your reasoning.
“Wow do you want to say that there were not the German characters under the rule by Hitler?”
Response: No, you said that.
You lost me when you brought “Hitler” into the mix.
I never said “everything” Roh stood for was bad.
“Under the politics of democracy, nobody can escape from the political responsibilities.”
Response: His brother is in jail for corruption, and his family is still under investigation.
I don’t think we need to continue this thread, AJT. You obviously think the world of former president Roh. I didn’t agree with many of his policies—which I need not go into here. I also did not like the way he stoked hostility and ill will towards my country; however, I am saddened by his tragic death. You seem to claim to be a champion democracy. Therefore, I am sure you will graciously allow others to disagree with your ‘onions.’
I am done communicating with you.
2:20 pm on May 28th, 2009 53
Correction: “…opinions”
2:37 pm on May 28th, 2009 54
My point is that the notion of a conspiracy is ridiculous. His final actions are consistent with his character as I see it.
2:46 pm on May 28th, 2009 55
Amazing, BDS has even affected a posting on the suicide of Roh Moo-hyun.
3:01 pm on May 28th, 2009 56
I was not impressed at all when many of Roh's supporters at Kyongbok Palace began shouting angrily at Lee Myung-bak when he went up to the altar to pay his last respects to the departed former president. I hope Roh's supporters do not sully or tarnish his legacy and indeed his own last wishes tonight with further politicized attacks and behavior. This is, after all, a chance to bring the nation closer together rather than tear it further apart.
3:37 pm on May 28th, 2009 57
@GI Korea: Someone has been drinking some kool aid. Good for you, dude, keep the dream alive.
I'm wondering, are you an actual GI stationed in Korea? If so, maybe you have some "theories" on why the average Korean has such a low opinion of the American military. Must be BDS – hopefully Obama will help change that…
3:55 pm on May 28th, 2009 58
John Galt, why don't you chill out and leave your political views/agenda for another appropriate time and place? GI Korea is actually a cool guy and a responsible representative of the US Armed Forces, and I say that as a civilian with progressive political views myself.
You seem to have just crawled out of the woodwork with the Roh suicide, but I have not seen your name previously in the K-blogosphere, so your views on Roh Moo-hyun and the proliferation of conspiracy theories you embrace strikes me as opportunistic and rather suspicious.
4:11 pm on May 28th, 2009 59
Please – I've been reading these blogs for months; I jumped in on this because I was interested in why so many Koreans here in NY are convinced that there needs to be an investigation and so many American's abroad are convinced that the issue should be dismissed. I asked a couple of innocent questions and I've been getting backlash for days. I have no agenda, other than an interest in what actually happened.
So should I assume that when GI Korea accuses me of BDS that that wasn't a politically motivated comment? Or when you- yes, you – express your disapproval of Roh's supporters, that this too wasn't politically motivated?
I'm watching tens of thousands of Roh supporters on TV right now and what I see is a respectful group of deeply saddened people doing a pretty good job of keeping it together under the circumstances.
4:18 pm on May 28th, 2009 60
"I’m watching tens of thousands of Roh supporters on TV right now and what I see is a respectful group of deeply saddened people doing a pretty good job of keeping it together under the circumstances."
The day is early, as is the summer. Let us hope that this is not just the calm before the storm.
5:25 pm on May 28th, 2009 61
Was it my imagination or did 2MB crack a smile there for a moment? That should be all over the news tonight.
And one more question…
"Who is John Galt?"
The last time I saw him in Colorado, he certainly was not a leftist sympathizer.
5:25 pm on May 28th, 2009 62
Hey GI/Kalani, any predictions on what will happen tonight and/or this weekend? Here are two main potential scenarios in my opinion:
1. For most of the week, public attention has been focused on the botched police investigation, which means that it's been diffused and scattered away from the main target of the progressive forces, that being LMB, of course. There's a lot of public frustration being directed onto the police and bodyguards down in Kyongsang-do, but that's obviously not the direction in which the progressives want public anger to be channelled (especially since the bodyguards were working for Roh himself, which makes the whole situation too confusing and complicated to exploit politically in a clear and simple enough way for the general masses). Thus, it may be hard for the activists and hard-core leftists to marshall significant public energy or support for their own political purposes and "street politics."
2. The progressives will try whatever they can to make the riot police in the City Hall area an "issue" in the eyes of the public. After night falls, they will try to march perhaps to Namdaemun, but their ultimate goal will be the Blue House, which is obviously not going to be indulged or allowed by the riot police. Therefore, there will inevitably be some sort of confrontation at some point, which will then be "spun" by the protesters and the progressive media as "police suppression of democracy," rechannelling public anger onto the LMB administration once again. If enough protesters are involved during clashes with the police tonight, and if there are any injuries among the protesters (i.e., if the police get suckered into overreacting), this could spark a greater turn out tomorrow night in the downtown area, and then things could quickly escalate from there.
Which scenario seems more likely? I think tonight could greatly influence what happens here for the rest of the summer. It also remains to be seen how much of the general public will be sympathetic to any "ugly" exploitation of Roh's death by the progressive forces either tonight or during the rest of the weekend. That's probably the most important "X Factor" at the moment.
7:05 pm on May 28th, 2009 63
From the Korea Times:
"You are a political murderer!" Baek Won-woo, an opposition party lawmaker, shouted at President Lee as he was offering a flower to the deceased during the funeral, immediately being dragged out by security guards. The main opposition Democratic Party has been mounting calls for an official apology from Lee and his party for Roh's suicide.
What's interesting is that his wife seems to be getting a free pass in all this, even though it was her wheeling-dealing that caused so much of his grief.
"I lay awake with frustration at night because he is gone and I do not know whom to blame for his death," said office worker Moon Han-yong. "I just never thought he was suffering enough to take his own life. I am so sad, so angry."
Hmm, could it be that Roh himself was ultimately responsible for his decision to take his own life?
8:29 pm on May 28th, 2009 64
“Hmm, could it be that Roh himself was ultimately responsible for his decision to take his own life?”
This, King Beaksu, is a noteworthy question; however, I suspect his supporters will only have scorn and derision toward you for asking it.
8:48 pm on May 28th, 2009 65
This just shows you how absolutely ridiculous and dangerous nationalism is. Nazi Germany is the best example. The U.S. starting and fighting a war in Iraq with Congress's permission (instead of where the terrorists really came from) is another great example.
However, the South and North Koreans are also off the charts with their nationalism. We all know how it is in the North, where one man has created a cult of personality akin to Hitler and Stalin. In the South, an ex-president with leftist Nationalism views killed himself for something so stupid.
My point to all of this is that do not get too absorbed over something such as Nationalism. Just because you came from a certain country doesn't mean it's really worth KILLING YOURSELF over. None of the 200 odd countries on earth nowadays is really anything like a shan-gri-la like we wish they were. Just enjoy your life to the best of your ability and don't get involved in all this silliness.
Just think, Roh only got into office because he was a meek puppet for the leftist Anti-American radicals. He let them destroy his life. Did he do anything great? Was that presidency a wonderful experience? Did S. Korea benefit from all it's Anti-Americanism?
Ultimately, he jumped off a cliff for all this brainwashing.
He probably would have been a decent man if he never got involved in all this stupid Nationalism.
You'll be a decent person too if you stay away from this life-destroying type of nonsense.
10:23 pm on May 28th, 2009 66
Thanks King Baeksu for the shout out.
John Galt your statement trying to bring in Bush/Cheney conspiracy theories on this thread would be as ridiculous as someone trying to bring up Obama birth certificate conspiracy theories on this thread. Such a person I would say has ODS, which unfortunately in recent months has been spreading as bad as BDS.
4:21 am on May 29th, 2009 67
@GI Korea: If you had bothered to read the comment to which I was responding, you would see that I was offering up a couple of examples of conspiracies within the last 50 years. I was no more fixated on Bush than I was on Nixon (interesting that you fixated on Bush, but not Nixon). As we all know, there have been plenty of conspiracies in the last 50 years. Some conspiracies remain theories for lack of information. Others prove valid once investigated – this is the case with the examples I've offered.
So, to review, the topic was conspiracies, not Bush – clear?
Also, one needn't be a leftist sympathizer to want Roh's "suicide" investigated. One needn't really beleive that it was anything other than a suicide. Had none of the initial rumors surrounding the death proved to be true, we could all dismiss the "theories" about what "really" happened. Unfortunately, the bodyguard not only lied repeatedly, but tried to coerce at least one witness to supporting his lie. So, if you don't carry out an actual investigation, the story of Roh's death is always going to be burdened by unanswered questions and fuel the public's lack of faith in their government. If anything, it is in the best interests of the conservative party to get this cleared up to everyone's satisfaction as soon as possible.
5:08 am on May 29th, 2009 68
I'm with you on this – the amount seems trivial in the scheme of things. Though I do think the bribery investigation should continue. I don't understand why they are just dropping the case. Here again, when you hear people asking about motive, it comes back to this – who else might have been revealed to have been involved if the investigation had continued?
2:57 am on May 31st, 2009 69
Hey everyone below is an update from King Baeksu that for some reason wouldn't go through the spam filter so he sent it in via e-mail:
4:02 am on May 31st, 2009 70
Ho-hum.
Almost 50 million people in Korea… and few thousand are worked up about something or other.
It's another deviancy amplification spiral in the making.
From where I'm standing, the Average Kim is more worried about the economy (and his place in it) than anything from Yongsan, amok tracked vehicles or prion-infected beef.
They don't care too much for 2MB but they cared even less for Roh… and now they just feel sorry for him.
Unless they are out of a job, their income depends on national stability… and they aren't going to violently support whatever hype, real or imagined, the left-wingers have dreamed up.
Without that national support, these demonstrators will be an irritation and not a movement.
If the economy goes bad, much of the above could be null and void.
To all those making fun of Korean "democracy" over this, it is an interesting way to telegraph ignorance of a chain of incredibly violent demonstrations throughout American history… some of which were for equally unnecessary reasons.
Korea is a very young democracy.
4:08 am on May 31st, 2009 71
And, by the way, his post didn't go through because of the word…
ssss ooo ccc iii aaa l iii sss ttttt
s o o c i a a l i s t
sss o o c i aaaaa l i sss t
s o o c i a a l i s t
ssss ooo ccc iii a a l iii sss t
…which is spelled SOCIALIIST in Askimet Land… but PENIS gets through OK.
9:22 pm on May 31st, 2009 72
It is interesting to note that Gandhi regarded the disarming of the Indian people by the British as one of their "blackest" acts… and that Dr. King and his team, along with the Congress of Racial Equality had protection from the Deacons of Defense when organizing and marching in the South. The Deacons were a group of armed black citizens who showed up to various activities armed. Most were veterans of WWII and Korea. While both camps, Gandhi and King, espoused non violent action, they were not at all at odds with a fight if the situation required it.
9:28 pm on May 31st, 2009 73
Conspiracy? Here? OK – Maybe… but I wouldn't think it would have to be too byzantine thanks to the professional investigative acumen of their great police force!
I have to giggle when I see the contract guards on post actually armed with a REAL gun, and the KNP asleep in their cruiser with the overheads on in front of the whole world…