By The USFK contractor SOFA issue has been a hot topic here before at the ROK Drop and now it appears it could heat up again after this article published in the Stars & Stripes:
Sam Lacy, an Air Force retiree and former U.S. Forces Korea contractor, is one of at least 61 civilian contractors who have had their SOFA visas revoked since last summer, after an audit found that some contractors had wrongly been granted those visas. Many of those contractors say USFK never gave them a chance to defend themselves.
Dozens of former U.S. Forces Korea contractors who have lost the visas that let them work in South Korea are caught in a bureaucratic nightmare with no clear instructions on how to get their jobs back, many of them say.
At least 61 civilian contractors have had their status of forces agreement visas revoked since July, after the U.S. Army Audit Agency found USFK had mistakenly granted visas to people who weren’t eligible for them. The reason: They weren’t living in the U.S. when they were hired.
“They’ve been ignoring this clause in the regulation for the last 10 or 15 years, and all of the sudden they decide to enforce it?” said Sam Lacy, a retired Korean linguist with the U.S. Air Force who recently lost his SOFA status and his job at Osan Air Base.
For Lacy and nearly all the other affected contractors, losing their SOFA visas — which allow them to work in South Korea under the umbrella of the U.S. military — means losing their jobs. [Ashley Rowland - Stars & Stripes]
What I find ironic is this retired Korean translator (if he was working in translating) gets fired for an obscure visa regulation that is suddenly enforced and currently the US military is so short on Korean translators that they have started a special program to recruit Korean immigrants into the US Army that has Koreans filling recruiting stations.
Anyway USFK is saying that these contractors have to move back to the United States and become ordinarily resident before applying for a job with USFK. However, USFK won’t define what ordinarily resident means:
In general, that means leaving their homes, moving their belongings and family back to the U.S., and getting a job there. But there are no concrete guidelines for what to do or how long it takes to become “ordinarily resident” after returning to the U.S., said Col. Daniel Rosso, head of USFK’s Contracting Command Korea.
“I can’t tell you how to do it, and that would not be fair to try and do that,” he said. “There’s no such formula.”
Read the rest of the article, but the Korean government is saying they are not the ones forcing these contractors to lose their SOFA status and USFK says they are not forcing them out to make room for more jobs for the expected increase in military spouses in USFK. USFK says this all happening because of an audit that happened last last year. I wonder if this was the same audit that showed that USFK lost tens of millions of dollars in contracting waste?
You can read more about this issue at the USFKSOFA.com webpage and I have also set up a special Forum over at the ROK Drop Forums as well to discuss the USFK contractor issue.
12:54 am on June 4th, 2009 1
The article says he's a retired Korean linguist, but doesn't mention anything about where he was working or what kind of work he did. I know several retired linguists that are doing non-linguist related jobs as contractors.
2:32 am on June 4th, 2009 2
This is one of the most shameful things I've ever seen here in Korea. I know a friend who got fired because of this crap – and guess who has his job now? That's right, a Dependent officers wife. She's a nice person and my friend gave her a great overlap but it's definitely despicable what they did to him. He's now jobless and she and her husband are making out like a bandit.
Also, he was way more qualified but this is besides the point.
Like it really matters where you got hired from? Even if it did to go back in time and fire people instead of grandfathering it is total B.S.
To enforce this arcane regulation NOW just to hire dependents just reaffirms my position that I won't ever work for the Army or the U.S. Government again. Obviously they don't care about the quality of work, these are just job programs for uneducated people. That's why shit never gets done right or on time!
Why doesn't CCK reveal the truth: They are under orders to give more jobs to the dependents, regardless of the cost. For them to repeatedly lie and misinform these now jobless people it would help them find a new avenue for employment. I know several guys who are willing to move back to the U.S. just so they can get their job back.
From ALL accounts this CCK is an unprofessional and dishonest organization. Playing games with peoples livelihood is beyond thoughts and words.
You notice they didn't do an audit on the GS workers. You'll find just as many local hirings as you do with the Contractors. What a bunch of lousy, despicable, and dishonest A-Holes.
9:29 am on June 4th, 2009 3
CCK is not value added for the contractors or government requiring activities. Their attitude is "how can we not grant you IC status!" Their actions about saving money and providing assistance to government requiring activities is nothing more than BS. The two individuals responsible for reviewing and implementing "their" interpretations of SOFA law is despicable at best. It's a shame that they're continuing their arbitrary interpretations of SOFA law. As stated by the CCK commander, their is no formula used for determining ordinarily resident status. CPOC is no different in their determination of local hires. If an individual has an A3 visa, but the contractor doesn't provide housing, is the shameful tools they use to decide if someone is a local hire. An A3 visa is granted to those who are employed and not ordinarily resident, or they wouldn't receive an A3 visa. It appears that both organizations are in the business of "how can we screw you", and not how they can help patriotic Americans work for the DoD here in Korea. A conspiracy theory to eliminate competition for positions and grant more for dependent spouse employment opportunties is believable.
10:04 am on June 4th, 2009 4
Good point, correction made.
10:57 am on June 4th, 2009 5
I know people who in no way should have had their SOFA status granted yet CCK gave it to them anyway. What does this tell you about what is actually going on at CCK?
You have University of Maryland professers that have been denied, yet other professors who work in High-Profile jobs at Korean Hospitals and Dental Clinics on the economy and still maintain their SOFA status. How is this possible?
Their is no standard obviously. It appears to be at the whim of a Civil Servent Douchebag who is on a power trip. Wonder how many white envelopes he gets in a month?
12:15 pm on June 4th, 2009 6
These turd lickers at CCK need be run out of Korea themselves. THEY are shady. THEY are criminals. THEY should be CLOSELY scrutinized. THEY are felonious farks. THEY might have prison time waiting for them. THEY have taken care of their buddies. THEY have farked over those who THEY did not deem worthy (those who couldn't do anything for THEM). THEY need to be Suran wrapped to a piece of plywood and beaten…
THEY will get theirs. I am not advocating violence – Not from me, but I've heard talk. Sometimes there is nothing better to correct a situation and way of thinking than an a$$ whooping. Everyone knows their names. I hope THEY have an escort off-post.
THEY might find their status is unworthy as well.
12:40 pm on June 4th, 2009 7
CCK is always getting their palms greased
hell this COL might have more $$$$ in his mattress than the previous ones
this is crazy
“I can’t tell you how to do it, and that would not be fair to try and do that,” he said. “There’s no such formula.”
i mean i thought 06's were smart and this is the dumbest thing i have heard anyone ever say!
youre telling people they cant work because of YOUR ERROUNEOUS REGULATION but also saying you can not tell them how to meet the criteria specified in YOUR ERROUNEOUS REGULATION
no wonder the military is so f'ed up with leaders like this guy running his mouth make it comical and a joke
12:42 pm on June 4th, 2009 8
and i know i mispelled erroneous
2:42 pm on June 4th, 2009 9
Man, as bad as S&S (with kid gloves on) make these clown penis's look, I'd give anything to see a guy like Mike Wallace go classic 60 Minutes on their asses. It would be craptacular. CBS would probably throw the laugh track in for free.
These guys are beyond buffoonery and into shear retardation territory.
3:31 pm on June 4th, 2009 10
" USFK says this all happening because of an audit that happened last last year.".
Sounds like politics to me. Someone in the State Department is using a previous audit to 'change the way the US does business'? (for what reason, I have no clue)
5:56 pm on June 4th, 2009 11
It's just a simple ploy to get rid of retired ex-military and hire dependents in their place.
Just this year they've changed other rules for retirees such as limit health care, deny car decals, and take away permanent ration cards for temporary one's that have to renewed every month instead of every year.
Tell me this is all a coincidence?
8:14 pm on June 4th, 2009 12
Hmmm. Where did you hear all that? I get the Retiree Assistance Office newsletter and there was never any mention of any of that.
http://www.rao-osan.com/
9:01 pm on June 4th, 2009 13
i find it interesting that the document Mr. Lacy is holding is a contract. How can a contract prove that USFK is getting rid of contractors? Yet another great piece of journalism by the S&S that is missing all of the facts and takes people's opinions as policy.
The contract companies are letting their employees go rather than lose profit to sponsor them in the ROK. This is business, nothing more, nothing less. But let's place all of the blame on CCK rather than the employees that do not qualify for status.
Speaking of the corrupt system, either this is rumor, or the people making claims have actually greased the palms they now speak of. The people at the wheel now are completely above board. Be careful when you catch them out at night, you might be surprised that you failed to bring enough guys.
10:11 pm on June 4th, 2009 14
Well JoeC, I'm glad you mentioned this. The information is in the newsletters, but what's in the newsletters isn't always what the reality is.
For example:
1. You can try to get an appointment but the nauseatingly unprofessional Filipino appointment clerks are very rude and will tell you "no Space A available, call back tomorrow" without even trying. They've had dozens of complaints and have been there for years but they won't fire them.
2. Retiree Help – I called for some some assistance and the man wasn't very cooperative. He seemed like an old guy and he was whining, like almost crying with his high pitched banter. I mean, talk about having an agenda and conveying the fact that you DON'T want to help a fellow retiree who's 20 years younger! This experience reminded me why I was getting out of the military in the first place. A word of advice when someone calls for assistance–be a professional, speak with an even tone and try to be helpful. Don't whine and cry like helping a fellow brother is the LAST THING you want to do!
3. Ration Card – This is in the newsletter also. They stopped issuing permanent ration cards to many retirees this year. Hmm..I wonder why? Just like the "Ordinarily Resident" situation they pulled this obscure rule out of their hat as well.
11:41 pm on June 4th, 2009 15
I see the mention of Mr. Terwiel as a RSO and I thought I would offer this little bit of information: He is no longer an official RSO. The official RSO's are Rey Esguerra (Area I and II) and Mark Wade (Area III and IV). They are very helpful and if there are any problems in locating them or with working with them, then feel free to let me know.
12:03 am on June 5th, 2009 16
I find it funny how the people who imply violence all use fake names. You stated everyone knows whom they are, however all I see are cowards who are hiding behind a fake names and talking trash. If you feel this way be a man and use your real name on the site. The people you reference are not hard to find. I drink with one of them almost every weekend in Iteawon. These people are not hiding from anyone. On a side note you probably seen them out but did not do or say anything to them because they were out with a group of friends.
Oh, bye the way the real Triple A audit that addresses the Invited Contractor problem is out now. They told us up front during the Responsible officer training last Monday.
12:19 am on June 5th, 2009 17
I went to a Baskins Robins located in the ROK. I asked for a cone with two scoops of ice cream; one vanilla the other chocolate. The clerk refused to put two different flavors of ice cream on a single cone.
I make as much sense of this story as I do the story of not hiring Americans who are in South Korea.
Ask a Korean "if 5X6=30, what does 6X5=?
12:47 am on June 5th, 2009 18
What WAS the problem?
12:51 am on June 5th, 2009 19
Sounds like the Designated Driver program- free non-alcoholic drinks at MWR clubs (don't know if they still have it) About 15 years ago at the Main Post Club, I explained I was the designated driver (I was- didn't drink then, don't now)…The girl behind the bar didn't get it. So I had her get the manager. She gave me a drink then. When I went back for a refill, she wanted to charge me (NO- JUST FIRST DRINK FREE!)
Sometimes you just have to walk away and smile…
2:01 am on June 5th, 2009 20
I don't think I talked this Jack Terweil guy. The guy I talked to was mean spirited and very unprofessional, whoever he is.
6:27 am on June 5th, 2009 21
Your original comment made it sound like your were talking about some official policy changes. Now it sounds like you are talking about services and support you feel that are inadequate.
On #2, if you are talking about Jack Terwiel, you may have crossed a line.
As a retiree, I never need or ask for much support, but when I do, I never have any trouble finding him and getting what I need done. It seems that much of what he does is on a voluntary basis. He is not sponsored by the bases, just given office space sometimes when they can spare it. I think officially, he supports retirees in the Osan Pyeongtaek area, but from the work he puts in and puts out, I get the impression he is the goto man for retirees throughout most of central Korea.
I don’t know how or if he is compensated, but as far as I am concerned, whatever it is, is not enough. I think most retirees will agree with me.
I trust him to alert me when the DoD or USFK does try to cut back on more retiree access.
9:11 am on June 5th, 2009 22
The whole military floats around Seoul and your fishbowl. I like the name as well "crash".
12:55 pm on June 5th, 2009 23
Leon I'm not the one implying a good beating will solve things. My friends call me crash. How many call you by the ex generals name. After reading other posts by you on diferent topics I can tell what type of person you are.
2:38 pm on June 5th, 2009 24
Woo-hoo. Yep I'm the bad guy in all this. I'm the one arbitrarily messing with peoples lives. Blame ME Mr. Crash. Refocus the energy.
/I have seen an "attitude adjustment" work wonders. Including when applied to myself. Personally, I'd prefer if ALL of CCK went to prison and did hard time (ala Col Moran) you know, just for GP.
//Yes I use Leons name (in vain) to make the occasional trollish comment on the interwebtubes. He was a dirtbag and I would be happy to use any medium to further dilute and/or tarnish his brand. Get it, Crash?
4:48 pm on June 5th, 2009 25
Crash,
You seem like the man to talk to in this situation.
A big problem here is the lack of communication by CCK as they appear to be manipulating murky rules in an arbitrary manner to achieve a predetermined result.
If CCK's actions and motivations are correct and above-board, you stand in the unique position of clearly explaining them to the angry and confused masses… in a way that your CCK friends have been unable or unwilling to do.
Your sensible explanation can play a big role in defusing the situation.
No explanation, or one that reeks of bullshyte, will reinforce the growing belief that some of these guys need a hammer to the back of the head… as, sometimes, that is the only play left in a game without clear rules or impartial referees.
8:24 pm on June 5th, 2009 26
crash next time you have a beer with the idiots tell him what scum bags they are for me
compliments of johnnie slim
12:01 am on June 6th, 2009 27
I will give you some information that everyone can look up and see what started this mess that SOME people are in (right or wrong).
Triple AAA audit number A-2009-0124-FFP, pages 17-24.
All I am saying is it is BS to talk Sh*t online and toss out threats when the person is not if front of you. In NY we call that action and that person a chicken sh*t.
Leon by reading some of your posts on this subject and others, everyone seems to be a piece of sh*t in your mind(maybe you should look at yourself and determine if you are the actual turd). Oh and by the way, we have been to the Humphries and Osan vil many times.
The last question I will ask, why is it the fault of the people who where told to enforce the rules (read the audit report).
12:35 am on June 6th, 2009 28
Crash,
Come on, buddy. Don't add fuel to the fire.
There is a seemingly unnecessary problem and sincere, hard-working people just want to solve it.
Referring them to pages in a report doesn't get them reemployed, their families stabilized or the mission accomplished.
The audit required obscure rules to be enforced? Fine. Following the Rules is important. Now, how do we use the Rules to help these people?
As you have an inside line, state in clear English what the situation is and how to deal with it. Tell everyone the best way to work with your drinking buddies at CCK to get their jobs back. Explain exactly what criteria must be met for reemployment.
Experienced and stable employees have unexpectedly lost their jobs despite their dedication to the mission. They don't know how to get them back… and CCK is doing everything possible to keep them from finding out.
That is not the behavior of dedicated people working above-board.
This is why they are being treated as the Enemy.
With some clear writing of honest answers, you can dispel this line of thinking.
6:27 am on June 9th, 2009 29
I don't know, Leon.
Crash was quick to defend his CCK drinking buddies.
He has been less quick on answering simple, direct questions that will help experienced and dedicated American citizens keep their jobs.
I'm starting to lean towards the Hammer to the Back of the Head in an Alley Between Clubs method of dealing with this situation.
I don't know if corruption is involved… but I could believe it. After seeing open corruption on any number of issues, not to mention dealing directly with USFK corruption that went to colonel level (and was obvious to anyone who cared to ask the right questions), I have zero pity for anything that happens to these people who will stomp on everybody around them for professional or financial gain.
On a side note, at least two of the contractors who have lost their jobs and had their lives disrupted for no real, good reason, were very much against me and rah-rah-rah-USFK-can-do-no-wrong when I was fighting the Man. Ohhhhhh… now they see how crappy it is when they find USFK can make the rules up as they go along with no due process, transparency or oversight. Strangely, I feel pity… because they aren't really bad guys… but on the gravy train, they just didn't understand that USFK is not always right.
7:58 am on June 9th, 2009 30
This SFC nailed it but a bunch of occifers and their GS cronies have failed in their mission, reading comprehension skills, common sense and decency and legal aptitude. They have failed to provide the best support options for USFK. Yet, a SFC not only had the moral turpitude to correct them but did so in the most succinct manner I have seen to date.
from S&S: http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=125&am…
‘Resident,’ ‘domicile’ different
In reading articles about the contractors who have lost their status-of-forces-agreement status as a result of Contracting Command Korea’s updated interpretation of the requirement for a SOFA-protected contractor to be “ordinarily a resident” of the United States, it occurs to me that the problem lies in a misunderstanding of the term “resident” on the part of CCK officials, who are confusing it with the term “domicile.”
One is legally a resident of the country whose passport he or she holds, unless that person has legally established residency in another country by applying for “resident alien status,” meaning he or she holds a “green card,” or similar document, and intends to make the new country the permanent home (i.e. live, die and be buried in the new country). One is domiciled wherever he or she usually sleeps at night, regardless of residency. A person who is “ordinarily a resident” of the United States may be domiciled in any country in the world, even for extended periods of time, without affecting residency or citizenship.
Perhaps the people making this decision don’t realize that the principle of legal residency within the U.S., where for most civilians residency changes when one moves from one state to another, does not hold true on the international level, where legal applications and documents must be filed in order for one to change his or her legal country of residency.
Sgt. 1st Class Chuck Altvater
U.S. Army Garrison-Humphreys, South Korea
Somebody promote this guy. Hell, put HIM in charge of CCK.
8:04 am on June 9th, 2009 31
Dammit. I didn't mean turpitude. I'm typing too early in the morning.
Let me simplify and correct that sentence: "Yet, a SFC not only had the moral (intestinal) FORTITUDE to correct them but did so in the most succinct manner I have seen to date."
Turpitude would apply to the folks at CCK. My apologies to the SFC.
8:07 am on June 9th, 2009 32
Of course GI _could_ correct that for me and delete these last two posts…
Otherwise, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.
3:59 pm on June 14th, 2009 33
It looks like CCK is at it again. A friend of mine is getting screwed with over silly crap.
8:35 pm on June 14th, 2009 34
Crash,
I am extremely disappointed.
You defended your friends at CCK.
You complained about hard-working people who voiced frustration as they are arbitrarily being screwed over without due process.
You condemned when they pointed out the System is being manipulated to achieve a predetermined goal instead of working fairly as it should… and the only remaining option could be violence.
Fine. Your point of view is understandable.
But… when offered a chance to defend the actions of your friends at CCK, you referred everyone to a report… more like rubbing salt into a wound than acting as a caring American professional trying to help other professionals accomplish a common goal.
What conclusions can be drawn from this?
Many… and none of them are favorable to CCK or to you.
I would not advocate a bunch of contractors on the verge of losing their jobs getting together and putting the whole staff from CCK into the hospital to slow down the firing process… but I would now nod my head in approval at the results…
…especially if the CCK staff had been out drinking (alcohol-related incident) in the clubs while the contractors were home stressing with their families.
…and even more so if it would serve as a warning to others that the abuse of power (and/or corruption) will be punished even if the System is manipulated (or designed) to promote it.
I would also not encourage anyone here with personal information on CCK staff to post these details on the Internet… but if it led to fair treatment of contractors and their families, I would nod my head in approval.
Crash, it's not too late to give honest answers.
2:56 am on June 15th, 2009 35
Chickenhead
Who gives a sh*t if your disappointed. The truth is it does not matter if I respond to you with the truth or a lie, because you have an agenda. So no matter what I or God himself came down and stated to you, you would not be happy and you would act like a B*%#ch. My bet is you are one of the people who were fired by his company (not the government) because he did not meet the IC standards. So all your pathetic a*s can do is complain and give off handed remarks about hurting someone. Be a man and step up or shut the F#@k up.
I find it funny a couple months ago everyone was b*&$ching about there being no report and CCK was just doing this so dependents can get a job. Now that the actual report has been published, it does not matter anymore. This is exactly my point, no matter what I, Jesus, or the President say, you will find some other reason to complain, because your agenda will not allow you to accept the truth. So why should I or anyone else address this issue for you.
I forgot all contractors are church going, never swear, never look at women, and never go out to bars; they stay home with their families reading and quoting the bible. I forgot contractors are cut from holey cloth and the poor old government employee is the bar hoping, womanizing devil. Therefore, the contractors we drink and play sports with must really be government employees posing as contractors.
Do you know how stupid you sound? By the way do you know what we call a chicken head in New York, I bet your world class.
9:35 am on June 15th, 2009 36
The bottom line should still be focused on the most stupid of quotes by COL Rosso: “I can’t tell you how to do it, and that would not be fair to try and do that,” he said. “There’s no such formula.”
So, if you are forced to go back to the U.S. they can't tell you the criteria to come back? This is the most obvious clue that this is political and not based solely on an audit. There should be clear defined guidelines on how to prove residency. Is it a water bill? A rental contract? Proof in your passport that you were in the U.S. for 6 months?
There are very few things in government that are subjective, and this is one that shouldn't be. It smacks of favoritism and politics.
11:30 am on June 15th, 2009 37
You guys that are even hinting at hurting someone over this or seeing someone get hurt over this are desperate. The decisions aren't being made locally, they are following what someone above them is telling them to do. If this is what contractors are about then you should all leave the gravy train…
9:01 am on June 16th, 2009 38
I don't know of anyone that lost their job due to this, but I know some have been forced to leave unexpectedly. I don't know why everyone thinks contractors are so rich, a couple I do know make $60K, period. No housing, etc. Some make more. Some make a lot more. But for the most part everyone has bills they pay, obligations to meet, etc. And to be given 1 month notice and not only be out of a job, but be forced to relocate can be pretty upsetting to them and their family. So it's pretty cold not to cut those guys some slack.
The lack of a clearly defined policy should be everyone's concern. How can it be such an arbitrary process?
9:42 am on June 16th, 2009 39
Quote: "The lack of a clearly defined policy should be everyone’s concern. How can it be such an arbitrary process".
How can it be such an arbitrary process? It's called C O R R U P T I O N.
Just take a look at who has their jobs now.
11:22 am on June 16th, 2009 40
It appears all of the AAFES car salesmen who lost their jobs (or were forced out) were replaced by (female) dependents.
If this is USFK's policy, why don't they grab their balls and come out and say it. Let the chips fall where they may. Everyone will figure it out eventually any way.
12:07 pm on June 16th, 2009 41
If you have tasks that require specialized training and experience and benefits from the continuity of the workforce, why would you deliberately want to replace them with a group that has a high turnover rate?
Does USFK have any Human Resources professionals in the loop helping them do the math?
1:50 pm on June 16th, 2009 42
Crash,
My complaint is not so much about CCK's decisions on the visas… but on the way they are going about it.
No matter what excuses you invent, you are advocating an arbitrary system which lacks due process and transparency.
This is very third-world… and not exactly an American tradition.
It inevitably evolves into a shield for corruption and short-term politically-based counter-productive actions by those involved who see opportunity and lack of accountability.
For you to defend this system questions your motivations as well as your patriotism.
I'm sure there are reasons for CCK's actions. They may be valid, if unpopular… but if they are sincerely taken for a real long-term gain for America and its military, there is no need for secrecy. Intelligent people will understand and only the whiners will remain.
Unless everything is not on the up-and-up, there is nothing to gain from hiding the truth.
As you keep instructing people to "man up", why don't you do the same? Explain in simple English what steps contractors who have lost their jobs have to go through to regain them. Easy.
Failing to do that will paint you and the staff of CCK as complete wusses… and will encourage the suspicion of corruption… and encourage the last resort of violence… meaning if honest answers won't be given officially, maybe they can be given with a hammer to the kneecaps.
"By the way do you know what we call a chicken head in New York"
Uh… the guy who makes fun of you because you are a very small all-talk no-action "man" getting worked up like a little girl with a skinned knee about off-handed comments on the Internet?
7:34 pm on June 16th, 2009 43
Crash,
I am new to this but always enjoy a good read. Can you tell me where I might find the "Triple AAA audit number A-2009-0124-FFP" you refer to? I would really make better sense of this whole post if I could see if there was anything substantial that applied here.
Thanks
7:50 pm on June 16th, 2009 44
One thing I can attest to is when it comes to Government work it's NEVER about doing the right thing. It's always infighting, back-biting, and whoever is the most despicable one in the end wins. There just simply isn't any incentive to consistently provide a quality product. True, there are some high quality people in government but those people are few and far between. They get wore down eventually anyway. I worked in the Govt. for many years and when I quit I said "Never again". Trust me people, there is a much better world out there.
8:13 pm on June 16th, 2009 45
I find it interesting no one has had any opposing view to post #18 (the S&S Letter describing the difference between domicile and residence).
Besides the fact that the rules seem to be arbitrary, and there seems to be some dirty business going on, this seems it would be at the crux of the matter. Namely, CCK's inability to interpret and act upon basic legal concepts such as domicile and residency. That is of course assuming no hidden agenda and it is increasingly obvious this may be the case.
As far as the (in)famous Contractor Gravy Train, please advise us where we may obtain a ticket! I'm certain many of us here would love to take a ride on it, having heard all the wonderful things regarding it.
11:42 pm on June 16th, 2009 46
Crazy Z
It is posted on the Department of the Army Audit Agency web page. Free for anyone (and I mean anyone to view).
12:36 am on June 17th, 2009 47
That's not exactly true.
"Our Extranet site contains information about our Audit Plan, organizational leaders, and audit reports. The site is restricted to military domains (.mil) and to the Government Accountability Office (.gao.gov)."
12:38 am on June 17th, 2009 48
The former contractors affected by the CCK issue won't have access to it.
8:46 am on June 17th, 2009 49
Once again, I went and read this audit and it had nothing to do with contractors and SOFA.
9:41 am on June 17th, 2009 50
I said this once and I'll say it again….you CANNOT be "Ordinarily Resident" in the US if you are US citizen. That only applies to non citizens.
If you are a US citizen, how can you be ordinarily resident in your own country?
You have to be physically in the US when you got hired, not virtually.
The question that be asked is…how long were you in country before you got hired?
10:18 am on June 17th, 2009 51
I'll take it a step further. As long as a person is/was not illegally in KOREA, it should not matter where that person was residing when hired be it the US, Philippines etc.
(one of many examples of idiocy): Do you all realize there are people who have lost their jobs because some time ago they temporarily "retired" to the Philippines for a year? They then got rehired only later to lose their jobs because of this crap. My question is: What the hell does KOREAN A-3 SOFA status have to do with where a person lives outside of KOREA? This blows my mind. I seriously doubt there is any language in the SOFA which precludes a person from having resided in the Philippines at some point in their lives. Utterly ridiculous.
11:01 am on June 17th, 2009 52
I've only started reading these threads in the last couple of weeks since I started planning to go back to Korea and needed to look at housing options…
…but having read it….I wonder…
Could the rules have been created in part due to concern about a "revolving door"? — an effort to discourage military people from leaving the service to work the same job or same job area for higher pay as a civilian contractor?
12:02 pm on June 17th, 2009 53
The main question that needs to be answered is what is the official definition of "ordinarily resident" as it applies to CCK / SOFA?
Regarding how to become ordinarily resident in the U.S., COL Rosso's answer was “I can’t tell you how to do it, and that would not be fair to try and do that,” he said. “There’s no such formula.”
So people are losing their invited contractor status, and thus thier jobs due to some criteria that hasn't been defined. "Crash" would have you believe that it was the employer's decision to let these people go. But let's be honest–if you are here on a SOFA visa, and USFK says you are no longer an invited contractor eligible for SOFA status, how can your employer retain you when USFK has locked you out of your job?
12:38 pm on June 17th, 2009 54
It could be but the overwhelming indicators are that they took these jobs away and gave them to dependents. It's just too coincidental that at the time they started normalizing tours in Korea they sunk so low as to fire these contractors without cause. It'd almost be funny if it wasn't true.
3:25 pm on June 17th, 2009 55
Here, there is the difference between reasoning behind formulating the rule and deciding when to get around to enforcing it.
The rule might have made sense, I have no idea, when and how they created it but by not enforcing it immediately they ended up setting people up for a crappy deal when they finally did decide to enforce it.
4:14 pm on June 17th, 2009 56
In all actually "It's OVER". Working around the military used to be a good gig in Korea but it's absolutely ruined now. Osan is a complete clusterfu$k now. I can barely stomach going on base anymore. It reminds me of Yongsan or Yokota. Fat assed dependents with their fat ass kids everywhere. Baby carriages with 1, 2, even 3 kids in them! The Food court is so loud with screaming kids I can't eat there anymore, I just get it to go so I can keep my sanity. How can you eat in a food court that has a kids playground?
In other words, if I was a contractor I wouldn't want to work in Korea anymore. Maybe some of the other bases around the penisula are a little better but I mostly hear the same story from other folks.
Trust me on this one: It's OVER!
8:41 pm on June 17th, 2009 57
I stand corrected. It is now posted, and anyone with a .mil address can read it.
That's cute. It does address why CCK started this mess. It does not excuse their inability to interpret laws & regulations and execute them properly.
8:43 pm on June 17th, 2009 58
To be honest, I was thinking about the same thing to myself at…. wait for it…. the CAMP CASEY commissary of all places. Can you believe it? They need to widen the aisles up here now, if you catch my drift. This sucks.
*LOL*
10:52 am on July 15th, 2009 59
Every SOFA contractor that had their status revoked due to CCK determining they were not a resident of the U.S.: Have CCK contact your state and explain to them how you were not a resident of the U.S., and then you can get back all of your state taxes that you paid in error.
There was an insurance guy that visited our company recently. Our policy is 'overseas only' and the insurance policy says if you are in the U.S. more than 180 days then it is your intent to reside there, and therefore you won't be covered any more. I'm thinking, "Can this guy forward that definition to CCK to help the poor Colonel who can't seem to figure out a standard?"
4:56 am on August 15th, 2009 60
Household goods finally made it. 30k in the hole from this move, and counting.
6:26 pm on July 18th, 2011 61
Wait – Anybody know if I could get a contracting job with a 2+/2+ DLPT?
7:35 pm on July 18th, 2011 62
Funny to revisit this because of SPAM from http://www.hamradio.co.uk/lynchline/member.php?u=6382 – which is SPAM (helping google out there).
Anyway. The brainiacs at CCK now require mortgages, electric and phone bills, bank statements and all sort of other PII and personal finance items simply for a contractor to come to Korea TDY to support an exercise.
The latest and greatest? If the utility bills are in a spouses name you must additionally provide a CERTIFIED copy of your marriage license.
Additionally, all this must be redone each time with additional documents every time they come TDY. Many are just saying “hell with it” leaving Korea without some forms of support at times. All due to this silliness. I don’t know why the USFK leadership doesn’t deal with it.
7:43 pm on July 18th, 2011 63
That contracting command is going to wind up funking the US commands with its ridiculous rules.
Most of the contractors here actually are of some use and have expertise and continuity which the .mil guys just won’t be able to master in a short tour.
But if we make it more difficult for those guys, they’ll go where they can make a living, and it will be even more like The Land of the Lost than it already is.
8:29 pm on July 18th, 2011 64
#64 It has already started. During an exercise earlier in the year, a system had no support in Korea because everyone refused to come to Korea. No one wants to share all the most intimate details of their finances for a 30 day TDY. Not to mention the PII associated with it and the very real possibility of identity theft. To top it off, every time they DID submit a packet the requirements changed (unannounced) and it was kicked back.
It’s anyone’s best guess what is required from month to month.
Would YOU want anyone in USFK to have your mortgage and banking info?
9:33 pm on July 18th, 2011 65
Leon,
“Would YOU want anyone in USFK to have your mortgage and banking info?”
Good call! I can think of a number of times where USFK and associated organizations just didn’t care about protecting personal information.
This applies to ALL large organizations who don’t protect data through malignant intention, careless accident, or personal actions of an employee.
Once in Songtan, there were a couple of old computers sitting on the street in a trash pile. They were 486s and everybody had a Pentium.
Because I can always find a use for an old computer, or the parts inside, I picked them up.
Guess what was on the hard drives?
A bunch of AAFES records… maybe ALL of AAFES records up to that year… payroll, inventories, detailed accounting, the personal information of all employees… etc.
Of course, the famous example of the yaki mandoo sellers using old printer paper as bags still exists to this day. Sometimes the paper has information that shouldn’t really be public.
Also, I was a witness to an incident at the main gate. The whole situation was an incredible clusterfunk with no bad guy… just a bunch of people doing what they thought was right based on what they were ordered to do. I recognized this, wanted to make sure that nobody got into trouble from well-meaning-but-ignorant-leadership, and was asked to come to write a statement… which included things like my name and social security number.
My statement explained the situation in a rather funny way… and copies were made and distributed far and wide… without retracting my personal information. Someone even showed me one downtown and said, “Check this funny shyt out.” “Yeah. I know. I wrote it.”
This isn’t just USFK. This has happened in Korea and the States.
After I got my F2 visa, I got a letter at my home address from a hogwon trying to recruit me. This information could only have come from the immigration department. I called a friend at immigration and he looked into it. It turns out that one of the workers there had a “friend” at a recruiting agency and “accidentally” leaked the info… or some other nonsense excuse. We all know what happened. I got an apology phone call from everyone involved which I graciously said was no big deal… even though it kinda was. Korea is a country that is BEGGING for identity theft crimes.
One the bright side, though, I had to find someone for someone. I gave their phone number to a guy who works for the telecom company and he printed me out a map with all the places they had gone. Let the implications of that incident sink way, way in.
This kind of thing goes on all the time on a personal level all over the world in everything from countries to government agencies regardless of what “policies” or “safeguards” the head office claims to have in place.
So…
As nobody is ever going to use my personal information to give me a new Corvette with vanity plates or buy me a round-the-world cruise… and the best that can happen is nothing… I have a policy over giving out personal information…
…which goes something like, “Funk you.”
10:13 pm on July 18th, 2011 66
Ahh yes – the vaunted FKAQ section of CCK whose job it is (in their opinion) to see how many people they can prevent from getting IC status. The a$$hat civilian that stamps 700-19 forms these days has got to be about the most unpleasant person I have ever met. In addition to the vague, if not non-existent ‘rules’ about which documents they want to collect, I believe this guy takes pride is seeing how many people he can deny IC status to and/or how he can cause the most amount of hand-wringing and unneeded drama by waiting until the ABSOLUTE LAST day to process your paperwork – i.e. the day your current contract expires (or after it expires so you that either can’t get in the gate to come to work, or if you have a retiree ID and can still get in the gate, you have no useable CAC card so you still can’t work). I know they don’t care, but when they stamp your paperwork on the last day possible, you have no hope of doing all the things you need to do with a new 700-19 (CAC card, ration card, driver’s license, ROK immigrations, etc.). I’m sure every manager of a contract company over here takes great delight in knowing that their employees can’t do their assigned duties for several days to clean up all of this mess once they finally get their stamped 700-19 back from FKAQ.
I’ve personally heard this guy give out absolutely bogus information, once telling a friend of mine that as a retiree, he could not start working a contract job while on terminal leave (NOT true, as we all know). If you ask what the expected time-line is for processing a 700-19, you invariably get one of a few canned responses like “it varies; several days to several weeks; first in is first to go out;” etc. They have no SOP or anything else to govern how long is ‘reasonable’ for the paperwork to process. There is no tracking system for these documents either, that I know of and nothing that definitively lays out which specific documents they want (this time around, since it’s always changing). I’ve seen many instances of that guy saying he didn’t get e-mail such-and-such when you can see it in your COR’s sent items with a read-receipt. Oh – and my favorite – he got it in his “personal” K-WAN e-mail account but will not process it unless it is re-sent to the “FKAQ” e-mail account. This only scratches the surface of the stupidity that goes on down there. Given all of this, and more, its no surprise at all that USFK can’t get people in here TDY that they need. In today’s world of the BLOG, FB and the internet, it’s not hard for word-of-mouth to spread. Isn’t it ridiculous that one feeble-minded idiot can wreak all of this havoc?
I don’t know who put the chip on this dude’s shoulder, but as alluded to earlier in this thread, if the current behavior and and attitudes persist, this guy may come to some rough times in an alley somewhere when somebody tries to knock that chip off. I will put in the same disclaimer as others that while I am not advocating outright violence against this guy, I won’t shed any tears for him either. All his petty little ‘games’ mess with people’s lives, and families. I would, for once, like to see CCK install someone in that job who actually cares about customer service, since that’s what that job is – serving their customer – the potential IC employee who has to process their paperwork through FKAQ. If this guy hates all people and dealing with contractors so much, then he should get a new job as a data entry clerk in a windowless single office where he is not required to interact with anyone. Otherwise, there are basic human manners and principles that come into play when you’re dealing with people that need something from you. Getting delight out of seeing how many people you can screw over isn’t part of that …
10:39 pm on July 18th, 2011 67
It’s not still Scott Bonner is it?
11:34 pm on July 18th, 2011 68
@67 – no – the guy that’s there now makes Bonner look like a candidate for customer service professional of the year
12:25 am on July 19th, 2011 69
Only way to make sure your stuff goes through is for a senior government guy to be eyeballing it the entire time. The government over here had too many close calls and they can’t afford a systems outage because workers can’t work. So now they eyeball and track the paperwork every step of the way and make it really difficult for CCK to create a work outage. This is only possible if your command has an O6 who actually cares about these things. Also helps that CCK has zero control over people coming TDY from the states, DISA and the PM office takes care of them.
9:36 pm on July 19th, 2011 70
@69 Sure – constant nagging and external oversight will get the job done, but my point is – it shouldn’t have to come to that since you would expect an agency of the US Government to be able to track their own actions, especially when they are time-sensitive and can involve the well-being of the customer they are supposed to support. We have plenty of O-6s around here, but I’m guessing what gets it done in your firm is the possible backing of stars behind those O-6s at your location. They (CCK) do not consider is a work outage if they sit on your stuff needlessly and give it to you on the last possible day, even though we all know that’s the effect it produces since you are now in ‘panic mode’ to run and get everything done since it is all now expired. Someday, somehow the one individual over there who thinks its fun to play with people’s livelihood will be forced to explain himself when he screws over the wrong person. I would love to hear what the excuse is…
1:33 am on July 20th, 2011 71
@70,
I agree that their organization needs to be managed better. The situation in Korea is horrible as CCK has no oversight on pen, none zilch zero. US Contracting Command is supposed to be its head office but because their in SK no one really looks in their direction and thus the GS’s in that office got a seriously overblown ego.
And ultimately that is what it boils down to, the workers in that office do ~not~ want contractors over here. Every contractor they can get rid of is a potential GS job in the making.