By I thought maybe some of you here could give me some useful advice on housing in Seoul.
You can email me at usinkorea@hotmail.com
I’m talking to YBM about teaching adults-only in Seoul, and their adults-only hakwons give a housing allowance instead of providing housing.
I figure many of the people reading here are ESLers or military people with some of you living off-base or not in school-provided housing.
I have some idea of the pitfalls, but I’m interested in pricing and availability – plentiful or scarce as far as affordable housing goes. It’s just going to be me, so space isn’t much of an issue. Price is.
Any idea you can give me about the current environment and examples of costs will be appreciated.
Thanks…
2:36 pm on June 10th, 2009 1
By the way, this is another thing about Korea being different and such a wired society now — it is much easier to do research on something like housing than it was in the late 1990s.
That was before blogging and before something like Dave's ESL Cafe.
In fact, if I remember correctly, there weren't many expat sites as late as 2002. I can remember how the anti-US fever of that year led directly to some of the early sites going up — like my geocities newsletter and a forum by Bevers (is he still around? last I heard was about how he wasn't renewed at his university due to the Dokdo research and posts he had done).
I think by the end of 2002, and I'm pretty sure by the end of spring 2003, blogs had become the new thing and then blogs sprouted like weeds.
(Oh….in saying Korea being a wired society helps in research, I meant more than the K-blogs and expat websites — there are a lot more Korean info and other sites in English catering to foreigners too.)
3:12 pm on June 10th, 2009 2
You can get a nice but small apartment for w3 to 5 Mil down and 400 to 500k a month. Any rent info you get from people in the military who get LQA will be grossly inflated since the Korean landlords charge them the max allowed under the LQA.
3:27 pm on June 10th, 2009 3
Stay wawy from any realtor near a base. Especially Julies (still do not understand how they are off-limits in Seoul and not so in places like Dongducheon). From personal experience they tried to rip me off.
Since you have a Korean wife you should have no problems. For us waegook couples, the rip off tide is always in.
3:37 pm on June 10th, 2009 4
We've been paying 900,000 won since 2001 / never gone up / no deposit / been in same place for 8 years / typical Korean place – go outside to change your mind
a lot depends on what part of town you want to be in. We're just down from the Hyatt / used to be lots of army types around – not so much anymore.
3:52 pm on June 10th, 2009 5
You have a Korean wife? Well then.. you don't need us to help. lol. As long as the realtor doesn't find out she is married to a weaguk until after the lease is signed.
4:11 pm on June 10th, 2009 6
Korea is all about social networking.
In that situation, I would have my Korean wife call up her high school and university friends, relatives, professional friends, etc.
Somebody, somewhere, would know of a good place in a good location at a good price… and since there would be a personal connection, there would be no unexpected rip-offs and the landlord's mother would bring me a couple pots of kimchee every winter.
Koreans who need reality services are showing a lack of connections… which is like wearing a sign on your forehead that says, "I'm Here to be Taken!".
4:27 pm on June 10th, 2009 7
The most useful piece of information I can give you about housing in Seoul is: don't get a place in Seoul.
You can pay a fraction of what you'll pay in Seoul and get an identical place (in terms of the apartment itself) outside of Seoul. Not only is the rent considerably cheaper – so are the prices of many goods and restaurants.
In years past, living outside Seoul meant you took a major hit in the standard of living. But for the most part, that's not the case anymore.
And generally speaking the air is cleaner, the traffic isn't as congested, and the people are a little friendlier.
With Korea's mass transit system – getting into and out of Seoul is easy.
The only reason I live in Seoul is because my employer covers my nearly $5K/mth rent. If it was coming out of my pocket, I'd be living in Uijongbu or Bundang – paying $500-600 a month.
7:42 pm on June 10th, 2009 8
Thanks all.
My wife, unfortunately, will stay in the US for the year except for an extended vaction which we'll spend with her parents. She likes her job here too much to give up and is going to college for some business courses. We've had to do this separate thing twice before, the last time 6 months while I studied Korean and before that 3 or 4 months when I came home after my grandfather died and I had to find a new job in Korea.
Someone emailed about an officetel. I had forgotten about those. That was what I lived in for free at my first school and my wife and I shared one at my last. That was our first year married. You really have to get along with a person to do that!!
Right now, my determined plan A is to live in Seoul. I figure I'm going to be worked to death 5 days a week in a split shift hakwon, and I want to make the most of my two days off.
I figure Seoul is better as a transportation hub with express trains and such to historical sites I want to visit this time around.
Also, I want to do some volunteer work for North Korea related NGOs, and I don't want to have to take the subway for an hour just to get in the city.
I lived in Bundang/Pundang for a year and found the two hour round trip into the city was just too much.
But, I'll have to see how it all works out…
I could swing a couple million for key money, but I couldn't take a chance with much more than that. Maybe the school will kick in or not…
I've been looking on the internet and from messages here and at Dave's ESL Cafe, 2,000,000 down and 600,000-700,000 a month or so a month. That is doable. I'm also not particular. I can probably accept conditions others wouldn't. I'm willing to sacrifice on comfort if it gets me better location and price.
I'll also follow Chickenhead's advice and see if my wife's family knows people in Seoul. Probably not. She's been here in the states since 2000 and she spent most of her life in Wonju. Her sister has lived in the areas around Seoul for some years though…
7:48 pm on June 10th, 2009 9
On conditions, I just thought, I lived in a real shithole or two with the free housing hakwons gave me or had to share a place with 2 other people when it would have been a little uncomfortable having to share it with just 1…
I doubt an officetel I can afford this time around will be much worse than what I've put up with before. I lived in a real shithole in Songnam for 4 months once.
7:57 pm on June 10th, 2009 10
I forgot, my wife and I also spent two months once in the middle of a scorching hot summer in an illegally converted attic where you couldn't stand up in the place where the toilet and shower was rigged. It was like having a free sauna in that place.
We had to do it while waiting for the teacher with the only single apartment to finish his contract and vacate.
8:18 pm on June 10th, 2009 11
Protests — I forgot, living in Seoul will allow me to cover protests up close and personal — after I buy a t-shirt that somehow gives the impression "I'm a happy Canadian!!"
8:27 pm on June 10th, 2009 12
Craigslist — I found that Seoul rentals have made it to Craigslist:
http://seoul.craigslist.co.kr/apa/
As I've been saying, Korean society's embracing of Internet culture makes life for the expat much better than it was in the late 1990s…
8:50 pm on June 10th, 2009 13
You have a master's degree, so why are you considering a job at a hagwon with no housing provided? A lot of uni jobs have hagwon-like working conditions, but with your MA and teaching experience, you should be able to find something with decent housing.
9:58 pm on June 10th, 2009 14
I'm looking out for university gigs, but timing will be important:
come this time next year, I'll be looking for teaching jobs in my target areas in Georgia again, and I'll have a much better chance then because I'll have certification in hand.
Right now, with No Child Left Behind and AYP (annual yearly progress) pressure on school boards AND the horrible economy, schools that have openings (and aren't laying people off) aren't even looking at people who don't have a certificate now but will be the start of school in August.
Anyway — if I want a shot at getting the one year bonus in Korea if I stay only a year, I'll have to land a spot for as soon after I graduate in mid to late July as possible.
And besides — by limiting myself to Seoul, it cuts down on the potential of finding a university gig.
I'm having to sacrifice some things to live where I want, but I'm willing because there are things I want to do I can't outside of Seoul.
12:49 am on June 11th, 2009 15
Do you want to live close to your job? I would suggest Haebongchon if you don't mind an early morning hill-walk and bus ride. The places are cheap, accustomed to teachers and usually pretty spacious.
You saw Craigslist already, but did you check out worknplay? What hagwons are you looking at so far?
2:14 am on June 11th, 2009 16
Expat, thanks…
Haven't looked at worknplay…
I just started looking at schools by starting with the big chains that have adults-only schools — BCM and YBM.
YBM is the first to respond. They haven't mentioned specific schools and locations yet. I've narrowed it to Seoul (for now and hope to stay that way).
Since I'll most likely be doing split shifts, distance from the school will be a factor — I don't want to have to wake up at 4:00 or earlier to reach classes on time…
3:43 am on June 11th, 2009 17
This time next year you will be employable, but you will still be facing a lot of competition for few openings, and if you plan either to line up work while you're still in Seoul or interview after you've arrived back next summer, your chances are not good unless you have certification in a high needs area. Our district managed to avoid layoffs this year but expects at least one more year of budget cuts. You may be in Korea more than one year.
7:36 am on June 11th, 2009 18
BCM offers more housing assistance (and they even provide housing if you don't want to deal with it yourself), plus the hours are pretty relaxed. Sure, you gotta work early in the morning, but your evening schedule is not set in stone like it would be at YBM.
8:59 am on June 11th, 2009 19
I have been paying 1.1Mil (no down) for a 3 bed, 2 bath for about 2 years, through my wife's connections. we live down from the Hyatt as well
10:21 am on June 11th, 2009 20
Yeah. We'll have to cross that bridge then.
My guess is I'll be in a better position than most: I'll have the MA – I'll have extensive experience abroad – I'll have 1 year of MA in English Literature – and more importantly for the area I want to live in, I'll have ESOL certification.
I'll also be putting in for certification in TN and Chattanooga often needs teachers and is located in the kind of natural setting I am looking for.
Another option will be to come back to the US with the money we've saved up including in Korea (one reason for the work abroad) and get by with substitute teaching and possibly long-term substitute work for a year at most hoping a job will come open.
And as always, I'll be looking for opportunities to talk my wife into going back to Hawaii where they have a high ESOL demand…
10:29 am on June 11th, 2009 21
From what I'm seeing, the officetels provide a good bit more standard with them than they did back in 2000. Internet access seems to be common and some say a washer/dryer is too.
The schools seem to have a good bit of variance on how much they offer a month — from 200,000 – 500,000.
200,000 would be too low unless I push them to raise the base salary to meet my experience and educational level. I hate haggling, but if they don't provide housing, I'll have to.
On hours, the key for me is not having to work Saturday. I can "endure" most split shifts.
And if I wind up in a school that treats teachers like slaves, like my first hakwon where 45+ in-class hours was the norm and we were shipped out between the split shifts to a town 30-40 minutes away for 1-3 hours of classes, with travel time not included in salary —- I'll simply jump ship.
12:53 pm on June 11th, 2009 22
USinKorea,
Why are you stressing on this? You have a Korean wife.
Get your F-2-1 visa and just come to Korea. Once here, you can take your time looking at schools until you find the one you want.
Further, you can work ANY job… it doesn't have to be as an English teacher… and you can even teach private lessons legally (as long as you pay your taxes)… which you can't do if you have the standard hogwon contract/visa.
With an F-2-1, you are GOLD to a hogwon. Why? Because a lot of hogwons need 1/2 a teacher.
This means you can just work mornings for a steady income to get you on your feet while you develop higher-paying (double) private lessons in the evening. After a year, you can dump the hogwon and work 3 hours of privates a day for the same pay as 6 hours of split shift at the hogwon… or work 6 hours of privates in a row for double what a hogwon pays for disrupting your whole day.
Sounds like a no-brainer.
Live in a yogwon for a couple months until you find the right place. No deposit, no utilities, a condom machine on the wall and mommy-ajuma cleans your room once a week. What more could a grown man living alone want?
2:54 pm on June 11th, 2009 23
Chickenhead,
Thanks for the advice.
I'll have to check on the F visas. This wasn't an option last time and I haven't followed any of the talk about it on the blogs since all the newer visa categories came out in recent years.
I've been going based on what I know from past experience.
I'm a little wary of doing privates unless it is farming myself out to hakwons on a part-time basis like you mention.
My limited experience with privates last go around was that they were a huge pain in the ass – dealing with the people and setting up a schedule and then them haggling and haggling and haggling the cost and then backing out of pay or having to press to get the money up front and so on. I only did a few privates because a few people wouldn't take "no" for an answer, and it was a constant headache. The money was very good, but it wasn't worth it to me.
Getting a hakwon to cough up the money in advance and setting hours that way would be better. I'll give it some thought and I'll start reading up on the visa changes…
I did think about doing this at the start by staying with my in-laws. If this were just about the money, I'd do that and could save a fortune.
But, again, there are things I want to do in Seoul related to the NK NGOs that I've had a thought or two about the last few years but could never act on.
3:01 pm on June 11th, 2009 24
Just thought – I'd have to pay my own airfare to and from Korea if I went on a F-2-1 visa.
3:17 pm on June 11th, 2009 25
Just checked out the Korean Embassy in the US site for info on the F series visa and they did not have anything on a F-2. F-1 was for Visiting or Joining family. F-3 was for Accompanying. No F-2.
I am actually going to visit family as one primary goal. My wife s father is very ill and I will be periodically visiting them. My wife will come for a visit herself but she cannot stay for a long time.
4:10 pm on June 11th, 2009 26
I'm on an F2 visa and would be more than happy to give you some info about the process and landing a job. I sent you an email earlier, so whenever you get a chance, respond and we'll go from there.
6:16 pm on June 11th, 2009 27
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobs/korea/index.cgi?read=…
check out this posting, they are offering 700,000 for housing allowance in BUndang, so I am sure Seoul should be much more then 2-300,000!