By Thanks to Spelunker in the comments section there has been much more news on the Euna Lee & Laura Ling story with it looking more and more like they did in fact cross the border. First of all Ask A Korean has a translation of an article from Korean journalist Joo Seong-ha where he quotes an interview with a North Korean border that allegedly was involved in the capture of the two American journalists:
I tried to find out the circumstances of the capture. A border patrol officer who is stationed in Gang’An-Li simply answered, “We saw the women roaming around in early morning, so we caught them.” I asked him, “Did you get someone to lure them into crossing the border?” “You weren’t waiting for them?”, etc., but he replied, “Not at all.” … Also considering that the men who ran away are keeping quiet, it does seem like it was the reporters’ fault. [Ask A Korean]
Ask A Korean thinks highly of this journalist giving him much creditability. As I have stated before if these two intentionally crossed the border to film they are extremely foolish and besides that are very reckless because now the North Koreans have film of all the defectors they interviewed, which puts them and whatever family they have remaining in North Korea in great danger. Additionally the guide that took them to the border area has been caught by Chinese authorities:
The ethnic Korean guide who accompanied two American journalists sentenced to a labor camp in North Korea last week has been arrested by the Chinese security authorities, said a South Korean pastor who organized the reporters’ trip in March.
Chun Ki-won, a Christian pastor and human rights activist, said the guide, Kim Seong-cheol, was arrested in China after he managed to evade North Korean guards on March 17, the day Euna Lee and Laura Ling were caught near the China-North Korea border on the Tumen River while reporting on North Korean refugees.
“I believe the Chinese arrested Kim to question him about the journalists’ situation,” said Chun, who declined to provide further, personal details on Kim.
Chun said he introduced Kim to Lee and Ling, journalists for the San Francisco-based Current TV, upon their request in January.
“Current TV wanted to send Caucasians on this reporting trip,” Chun recalled. “But I told them reporting on refugees had to be carried out in secret and having Caucasians would make them stand out.” [Joong Ang Ilbo]
So what does Current TV do? They send Laura Ling with Euna Lee who has no reporting experience, but can speak Korean along with a big caucasian cameraman Mitch Koss that stands out despite Pasture Chun’s warning. What did these two reporters think the North Koreans would think seeing a big white guy with a video camera wandering around North Korea if they did cross over?
The fact that the Chinese have caught the guide leads me to believe the guide was not in on the journalists’ capture because if he was you would think he would be lying low in North Korea right now. This is looking more and more like a mess created by Current TV, but we won’t know for sure until the people involved in this situation begin to speak out for themselves starting with the cameraman Mitch Koss.
7:24 am on June 18th, 2009 1
I’m still waiting for Al Gore to, first, apologize to North Korea, and second, apologize to America for shaming us with the actions of these two doofi.
If you’re such a humanitarian that you do things to get yourself sent to a gulag for more than a decade, then your sister shouldn’t be trying to cover up for you on ‘The View.’
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10:19 am on June 18th, 2009 2
(I’m going to be speaking to the generic “you” or “we” here – not any specific poster or commenter)…
I haven’t and don’t care if they crossed the border or not. Their ignorance isn’t an excuse for holding them for a prolonged period much less putting them on trial for high crimes against the state of North Korea.
The crossing or not is nothing more than a distraction: unless you (the generic you) can bring yourself around to saying they are getting what they deserve.
– If you believe the North has the right to do pretty much whatever it pleases with someone that illegally crosses its border — or to get more specific, any foreign reporter that crosses its border —– then whether or not the two did cross is vital.
Outside of that, it really doesn’t amount to a hill of beans as far as the actions of the North Korean government.
Make them pay a fine or something — then heap as large an amount of derision on them as you want — send them weekly emails telling them how stupid they are —
—and, yes, if they crossed, they were stupid especially because of the film footage they had of other defectors —-
—- but their stupidity should NOT diminish the realization that North Korea is as wrong as they can be for holding these two women and putting them on trial for crimes against the state.
One wrong does not make the other’s actions a right.
That’s why I haven’t cared much to hear from this cameraman or guide or what not. It would have made it more interesting if they had snatched the two on Chinese territory — but even there, given China’s relationship with the North, it wouldn’t have amounted to a big deal — so I haven’t cared much about the location of the snatching.
But that seems to be what fairly quickly became the central focus in the K-blogs, and I think it does more to obscure the nature of the situation than clarify it.
Or put it that way: clarification of where the two women were taken will not excuse the North Korean government for anything more than the initial apprehension. It will not be a “kidnapping” but it will remain a hostage situation and another clear sign of the despotic nature of the regime.
Most nations on earth do not hold border violators on trial for high crimes and keep them in jail this long…
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
NK is not “most nations” and they can do what they want when someone breaks the law. Including a firing squad. North Korea is not a pariah for no reason. It is what it is, and Al Gore should have known better.
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11:08 am on June 18th, 2009 3
The Rev. might be a great preacher, but he doesn’t know squat about news/documentary production. Having reporters who can mix in with the populace isn’t a good idea. I’d have sent two hulking blonds to do the story. Here’s why–unless you’re trying to go undercover, which really only works with very sophisticated planning and resources (neither of which Current has), a production team that stands out actually has a better chance to getting the story. One because attention is focused on them, not on what they’re covering or shooting. Also, if things start to go wrong, there’s no way that the “bad guys” can claim that they didn’t know they were on camera or that filming was going on, etc.
Unless Ling/Lee were trying to “recreate” the refugee experience, sending them was a bad idea, even if Lee had more experience and Ling wasn’t related to someone on the NK hit list.
But of course, the punishment is insane. At most, they should have be fined and kicked out. Current TV is covering its’ own ass for some reason. If I was Euna Lee’s husband, I’d get a lawyer and sue Current for putting my wife in danger.
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11:14 am on June 18th, 2009 4
“Most nations on earth (sic) do not hold border violators on trial for high crimes and keep them in jail this long…”
This is true. But then again, most nations don’t send their intelligence services galavanting around the globe to kidnap (err, “rendition”) individuals, engage in ineffective torture (oh wait, “enhanced interrogation” techniques), and then detain someone stripped of any legal rights and no hope of trial. Say what you will about the NORKS, at least they had the decency to give these two a trial, however flawed it was.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
A sham trial is no better than no trial. Legal rights? For what country? They are different in many countries. Those of whom you hint, what nation are they? What legal rights do I have in their country? Perhaps the right to a quick beheading without a sham trail maby?
If you admire the NORKS as you seem to, I sugguest you become a citizen There. I’m sure they would welcome you. Perhaps put you to some good use.
Do have a good day.
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
MM,
I am amazed by your stunning leap of logic. The article is about NK treatment of two reporters(misled or not). I will say that the North Korean State is an “Evil” one by most international standards. (Exceptions being NK, Iran, Cuba and several others that you are so willing to morally equivalate with the US)
Let me walk you through this since you are a little slow. Reporter X shows up in the US without a visa and credentials to report on the poor repressed people of Y district. Michael M., Noam C, Sean P. and dozens of supporters blast the US once it deports said individual back to his home of origin, or under pressure the US issues the visa so said reporter can blast the US.
Reporter Y shows up on the China border and steps one foot into NK. IF he isn’t shot in the back fleeting, he will either “disappear” or be given a show trial and 12 years of hard labor.
In your world the two events are equal and that either makes you incredibly stupid, intellectually dishonest or I suspect both.
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Yes, keep telling us how good the decent North Koreans are and how the evil Bush/Cheney should be imprisoned for war crimes. A decent person like you should go to NK and give them a hand. It the only thing to do. Otherwise you would be a huge hypocrite. So book your flight now before the flights of indignant people the world over make travel to NK impossible. North Korea ‘needs’ more thoughtful people like you.
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11:21 am on June 18th, 2009 5
I had a feeling we might get a shipment of this BS…
…but by the time I got to “at least they had the decency to give these two a trial, however flawed it was” I decided it wasn’t worth trying to combat.
For the moment, I’ll lie and agree with you: The United States is a world pariah. A hellhole of oppression and illegality against foreign nationals the world over. Evil evil evil country – at least under Bush –
— and that makes NK holding these two women OK — how exactly?
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June 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Your ability of foresight is commendable USinKorea. I can only hope that you will also give kudos to my own abilities at foresight in that I saw from a mile a way that you would act dismissively.
But then again, I don’t blame you. What I brought up are uncomfortable truths for you to face in light of you uncritical, ultra-nationalism. I can understand you reluctance.
As to you question at the tail-end of your comment, let me simply say that it’s not OK in the least. Just like it’s not okay in the least for the US to be doing the things that it does in it’s so-called “War on Terror”.
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
You offered nothing more than smug sophomoric sophistry belittling yourself. Completely – from first to last.
You equated journalists illegally crossing an international border with jihadists who have sworn to do what they can to further the aims of a global holy war – whether it is training to be guerrilla fighters on battle fields in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, or Chechnya – or terrorist militias in Yemen, Sudan, or the Philippines – or part of terrorist infrastructure seeking to carry out spectacular strikes in the US, Spain, Tunisia, India, Indonesia, and wherever…
…then you have the type of mindset that allows you to say something like “at least they had the decency to give these two a trial, however flawed it was” — while dismissing without comment any legal proceedings that have gone on in Gitmo or elsewhere with the apprehension of jihadists.
Think about that for a second. — That is people like yourself in a nutshell. — You throw a kudo to the most despotic regime on earth – giving points of validity to its legal system —- but can’t really recognize your doing it – because your sole purpose is to strike some simplistic blow against the US or more likely just some neocon like “Bushie”
Rather than think through what you’re saying about any of the parties concerned, you take a short cut dismissing completely any legal framework and arguments and procedures that the US has carried out. In a no-brain manner, you give credibility to North Korea and deny it to a democracy simply because you want to strike out at either the US or just the US under a neocon…
Then, after having defended Pyongyang and jihadists, for the sake of nothing more than poking a stick at the US, you come up with “it’s not OK in the least…”
—sigh—
The world works the way it does because people like you infect it…You are the sum total of too much of what Western higher education has to offer to too many people.
…you throw around accusations like “you uncritical, ultra-nationalism” so you can feel superior and smug — when the net result of your effort is to help make things easier for the worst despots on the planet by fracturing a potential united effort in dealing with such difficult, global problems through idiotic reasoning and bullshit.
Think about it. Who threw in anything about the US before you?
Where in anything I said about North Korea’s handling of those two women warranted “you uncritical, ultra-nationalism” —
— where are the words I’ve had to say about North Korea holding these women warrants that?
Who is blinded here?
— The answer is clear.
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June 18th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
First of all, I would like to know where, in any of my previous comments, I equated the two journalists with global jihadists. Perhaps in the moment of being excited and flustered from my statements your ability to read alluded you. That’s no matter, it happens from time to time. Allow me to re-orient you:
My comments were about the unjust apprehension and detention of individuals by a state’s security apparatus. Whether it’s in the DPRK or with the US’s system of apprehending, “interrogating”, detaining, or trying individuals deemed enemies of the state, I find that there are some rather disturbing overlap as well as divergences. For instance, in terms of overlap, its clear that the military tribunal system along with the trial of the two journalists are less than fair procedures. The case of the DPRK is rather clear and doesn’t need further elucidation. With the US and its “enemy combatants” it’s clear that the military tribunal system makes a mockery of the concept of justice itself. The defense can have no opportunity to cross-examine witnesses for fear of “exposing” intelligence sources and methods. Moreover, hearsay evidence is permissible as well as “confessions” extracted while being tortured. For a country that has purports to uphold the rule of law and judicial fairness, don’t these facts strike you as a bit odd?
In terms of divergence, I found this to be highly disturbing: In the case of the US and it detention of suspected terrorists, not once were these individuals detained while being charged for something. A direct violation of habeaus corpus. In the case of the two journalists, DPRK officials went ahead and did that. A flimsy charge to be sure, but this isn’t really the point. The crucial point is that the country that is supposed to the most vile and wickedest on the planet at least goes through the charade of fairness while the country that proclaims to embody such ideals can give no credible reason as to why it is exempt from the very rules and procedures it wants other countries to emulate.
But everything that I’m saying gets to a larger point: that of having the credibility by which to propagate and enforce certain codes of conduct among the nations of the world. The US, rightly in my opinion, sees itself as the insurer of a more just and freer international society. This is a laudable thing. However, how is it possible for other nations of the world-ally or foe alike-to take the US seriously when it deems itself exempt from the very rules it wants others to adopt. Let’s do a thought experiment, a simplistic one albeit, but a very illustrative one: if I’m pissing on the sidewalk and and they guy next to me who is also pissing on the sidewalk castigates me for my very actions, do you think I’d be inclined to accept and comply with his criticisms?
Finally, I believe that my “accusation” of uncritical, ultra-nationalism to be spot on and anything but “smug” or “superior”. If anybody’s guilty of smugness and feelings of superiority it’s you my dear USinKorea. It is you who has the inability to step outside of your own biases and prejudices and try see a situation from another perspective. It is you who is under the misguided and SMUG notion that ones own tribe can never be wrong or questioned. If that’s not smugness or a sense of exaggerated superiority, then I don’t know what is.
June 18th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
MM,
I’ve changed my mind, you are brilliant and your defense should be used in all court cases world wide starting immediately.
…
Judge: Mr. X you are charged with murder, how do you plead.
Accused: Your honor, George Bush is a war criminal he killed MILLIONS.
Judge: Wow, you are right, I am so sorry please feel free to torment your victim’s family you are free to go, next!
…
This misdirection and moral equivalency thing is great, I’ll have to try it at my next traffic violation. “Officer, I may have been speeding but 2MB killed President Noh…” It doesn’t even need to be true.
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11:29 am on June 18th, 2009 6
#3 — I can see your point, but I wonder about the Chinese authorities:
I can remember one documentary done by a white guy traveling on the Chinese side of the border, but I can’t think of others.
I’m not sure two Euro-types would make it to the border region – especially if they were up front about what their purpose was.
I mean, heck, China won’t let UN-sanctioned, China-based Human Rights and refugee-related organizations send its people to the border region to speak with refugees or help them —– because China doesn’t want the North Koreans defined as refugees.
As far as I know, the types of people/groups that do gather a good bit of information by traveling in that region are ethnic Koreans and Japanese – especially NGOs based in Japan.
I can’t recall hearing a lot of stuff coming from non-Asians going to that area.
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June 18th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
National Geographic sent a white guy to the same place Lisa Ling’s sister went (Yanji) and reported on the same story for the February 2009 issue.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/02/north-korea/oneill-text/1
Tom O’Neill even got help from the same South Korean pastor, Chun Ki-won, who warned Current TV not to send a Caucasian to Yanji.
Here’s white guy Tom’s take on Chun Ki-won:
“Chun has masterminded the escapes of hundreds of North Koreans trapped in China, providing them sanctuary in South Korea, the U.S., and other countries. But the pastor, now in his 50s and beginning to gray, is no storybook saint. His missionary contacts in China sometimes chafe at what they consider his bossy, reckless decisions; his top guide is a former drug smuggler; and Chun is not above resenting what he sees as ingratitude.”
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June 18th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Was that a film crew or just a photographer?
Either way, it still seems to me the bulk of the video material that has been done, as well as other work, has come from Asians working with the South Korean and Japanese-based NGOs.
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June 18th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
I made to the border twice with another blond woman, once to Dandong and once to Tumen. We then took a bus along a road that hugged the edge of the Tumen River way off the beaten path. Nobody paid us any mind. Even the crew of young PLA guards smiled at us as we passed each other while strolling along the riverfront. The border attracts many curiosity-seeking tourists and journalists, who are no threat to China.
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7:03 pm on June 18th, 2009 7
Please IGNORE MM’s irrelevant tu quoque. The topics he introduces have already been discussed and continue to be discussed in countless internet forums around the globe. This thread is about the two journalists being held in North Korea. Would love to hear your thoughts about THAT, MM. Thanks for staying on topic.
Remember, fellow commenters, that even the most persistent thread-derailer tires of arguing with himself.
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7:56 pm on June 18th, 2009 8
It is so obvious, you seem to be the only person unable to see it. And then you go right ahead and do it again in the very next paragraphs in the same breath.
And it is your inability to see that that corrupts your whole point of view, and makes your last paragraph useless nonsense.
(And this has to be the ultimate sign that the person your dealing with is talking within his own head: “own tribe can never be wrong” – I’ll eat a ton of whale poo if I’ve ever come close to thinking much less saying that….)
Your whole point of view revolves around equating the two reporters with the people detained by the US in the war on terror. Lumping all their actions together by calling them simply detainees by government X – and then equating all justice to rules of law established in American criminal and constitutional law to govern American and other citizens within the United States.
It’s a simplistic view of how the world works and has worked.
When the United States starts taking Mexicans crossing the river into Texas and putting them in Gitmo and holding them for 5 or 6 years putting them through the laborious tribunal system, drop me an email….
And as Sonagi rightly points out, (but whose advice I guess I’m stubbornly not taking), if you want to wade neck-deep into a debate about the nature of Gitmo – there are PLENTY of places for you to do so in cyber world.
You don’t have to hijack threads that end up making you basically an apologist for Pyongyang.
I’m sure in your heart and head you don’t want to make excuses for Pyongyang or legitimize its court system or its holding of these two reporters, but that is exactly what you’re doing thanks to your “I hate Bush” blinders…
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11:22 pm on June 18th, 2009 9
These weren’t a big film crew. 3 people and a driver. The BBC has also done docs. in the region, so it’s not impossible for a Westerner to report from there. Chun Ki-won seems to have his fingers in a lot of pies.
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1:55 pm on July 1st, 2009 10
There is a “smart” way and a “stupid” way to enter North Korea discreetly. The two female journalists chose the “stupid” way. I have lived in Northern China as well as the far east for several years. I always chose the “smart” way! Plan, Plan, Plan (the “smart” way)!
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July 1st, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Don’t forget the fact that the two female American journalists were also accompanied by Mitch Koss, a male American journalist.
Their biggest mistake was hiring a local guide in Yanji to take them to Tumen. They should have went to Tumen without telling their local guide, then meet him for breakfast after checking out of their hotel.
The “smart” way to infiltrate North Korea, if you are intelligent, is to do it yourself without a local guide.
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