By It seems like a week cannot go by without the mainstream media releasing an article advocating for gays in the military:
When it comes to dealing with gay personnel in the ranks, the contrasts are stark among some of the world’s proudest, toughest militaries — and these differing approaches are invoked by both sides as Americans renew debate over the Pentagon‘s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.
In the United States, more than 12,000 service members — including dozens of highly trained Arabic linguists — have been dismissed since 1994 because it became known they were gay. Current targets for discharge include a West Point graduate and Iraq war veteran, Army National Guard Lt. Dan Choi, and a veteran of combat missions over Iraq and Afghanistan, Air Force Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach. [Associated Press]
The whole these other countries allow gays to serve and so should we excuse is actually pretty lame considering the argument that different countries do not allow gays to serve in the military could also be made and it would be just as irrelevant.
The fact of the matter is that gays serving openly won’t be an issue because they are serving already and most servicemember including myself don’t care. However, the real issue is what comes after they are allowed to serve openly and they begin to demand special treatment? That is when you will see this issue create tension in the ranks which right now there is next to none. Don’t think it won’t happen:
This spring, Van Der Meer marched proudly with more than 100 other service members in Sydney’s annual Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Parade under an Australian Defense Force banner. Even a general joined the march.
So who thinks that gay soldiers should be allowed to march in gay pride parades in uniform? I don’t want the uniform to be used to march in a parade that celebrates someones sexuality be it gay or straight. Then what happens when gays start demanding their own segregated gay only barracks rooms, bathrooms, etc. Don’t get me started on promotions. Where does it stop? My concern is that this special treatment is not even something that will be demanded by gay servicemembers, but instead by the gay lobby eager to justify their existence. So is everyone ready to let such a cat out of the bag when gay servicemembers are no where near being the most discriminated against group of servicemembers within the military?
10:28 am on July 15th, 2009 1
If other countries jump off a bridge, should ours?
/I think the most discriminated against group of servicemembers within the military is straight, white and male (even being the majority).
//Females asked for no special treatment, just to "serve", but anyone working in or around the military could tell you special treatment is the order of the day.
11:12 am on July 15th, 2009 2
My only question: What does the 1SG do when PVT Straight asked to share a room with his GF PFC Hottie, and justifies it with "Well, SPC Tod Tight and SPC Fred Fit are boyfriend and boyfriend and share a room, why can't I share a room with my GF?"
11:23 am on July 15th, 2009 3
"Some of the world’s proudest, toughest militaries…" I'm certain the French think in those terms of their military as do many countries that have lost the capability to wage war. However, most of the countries that could be cited either mass conscript or have tiny militaries that would not be badly hurt recruiting, unlike the US.
12:00 pm on July 15th, 2009 4
"So who thinks that gay soldiers should be allowed to march in gay pride parades? I don’t want the uniform to be used to march in parade that celebrates someones sexuality be it gay or straight."
It doesn't say this Australian soldier or the general was marching in the gay parade in uniform. It doubt the Australian military would have approved that.
Let's face it. Gays will soon be allowed to serve openly in the U.S. military. It's time to prepare to get used to it. There was similar resistance when women were starting to be mass recruited into the U.S. military in the late 70's, early '80s. By the late 80s, most opponents had adjusted to it.
Most of our allies can't understand Americans prudish obsession with other people's private sexual activity. The new French President dumps his wife a marries his mistress within a month of his election and most French people shrug. The Italian President is well known and even admired by most Italians as a ladies man and an active player. Our president get a little head service and it's a national scandal.
But, we repeatedly learn that the people who tend to rant and rave most about others' sexual liaisons are doing the same things themselves in the closet.
The other thing left unspoken is when people rail against homosexuality, they are really thinking about male gay activity. Most heterosexuals fetish over lesbian sexual activity. It's a major part of the heterosexual porn industry.
12:22 pm on July 15th, 2009 5
We can't stop the lunacy, so we might as well just bend over, grab our ankles, and do the Shawshank Shuffle!
I think it's nice to parade about and tell everyone which orifice you want it stuffed in! To hell with PRIVATE sexual activity- make it all PUBLIC! Show the kids! Recruit clean cut and curious lads!
12:58 pm on July 15th, 2009 6
"…won’t be an issue because they are serving already and most service member including myself doesn’t care."
GI, I hate to pick on you; and you yourself admitted they (gays) will likely expect special treatment. How will you and other leaders feel when you are encouraged (command directed) to attend festivities for "Gay Pride Month?" Perhaps you might even have the 'opportunity' to give a speech detailing how these fine folks are 'great assets to our national defense' (having contributed so much) and how we should all emulate them. Perhaps you may even be able to opine on how their gayness directly contributes to mission readiness. You might get really lucky and AFN will broadcast your remarks for the entire world, including your family, to see. Tell me you cannot image such a scenario. Tell me it does not make you cringe about.
How will you react when you go to the PX with a big banner overhead stating something along the lines of "AAFES Proudly Salutes Our Gay & Lesbian Soldiers!" As a soldier, man and (not sure, father?) how does that strike you?
Let’s face it, perhaps many of these societies are able to absorb these folks into their militaries precisely BECAUSE they do not celebrate their, er, specialness. Also, as you noted other countries, particularly Europeans, are generally more liberal than most Americans.
Finally, I guess I would not define myself so much as 'anti-gay' but rather 'anti-all-the-other-stuff-that-will-go-with-allowing-this'. That's the big problem.
1:17 pm on July 15th, 2009 7
Ditto that.
3:32 pm on July 15th, 2009 8
Here is a hypothetical that may make you appreciate having an openly gay guy in the unit.
You are out in the field in some god forsaken country. You step into the brush to take a wizz and a viper jumps out and bite you where no man wants to be bitten.
Hours away from life saving medical treatment, it may be comforting to know there is someone nearby who may not be to inhibited to do what needs to be done to draw the poison out.
3:50 pm on July 15th, 2009 9
Stars & Strips Celebrates Gay History Month
4:11 pm on July 15th, 2009 10
JoeC,
Two men, Jim and Joel, who are lifelong friends go on a hiking trip. Joel is bitten on the ass by a rattler. His friend Jim Calls 911 and asks for first aide instructions. A doctor comes on the line and tells Jim to cut an X with his pocket knife and suck out the poison. His buddy who is in agony says "What did the doctor Say Jim?."
******
Jim pauses for a second and says, "Joel, I have bad news, the doctor says you are going to die."
4:25 pm on July 15th, 2009 11
As Junior somewhat pointed out, the issue often becomes one not just of "private sexual activity" but exaggerated public flaunting of it. And in an organization like the military, I can see where it would cause problems regardless of sexual preference. Which is why they have rules about fraternization and other sex-related issues between heterosexuals.
As for the president's and other politicians dipping their wicks elsewhere, people have a right to feel about it as they wish. It is their votes and their voice in choosing who represents them. Who cares if the president cheats and lies to his wife as a matter of routine? Who cares if he has an advanced degree? Who cares if he has little experience in politics?…It's up to the individual constituent, and if most constituents aren't comfortable with the ethical mentality of a president as demonstrated by his willingness to lie and cheat those closest to him, so bet it…
8:14 pm on July 15th, 2009 12
Exactly. Very few of us care and even more of us DON’T care to know what most of us do to get our own personal jollies. Make it a political platform, or a lifestyle which all of us, regardless of our (wide) stance, will get rammed down our throat (I kill me!) and be told by The Powerful Ones Who Must Be Obeyed (political kommissars- EEO reps, take your pick)that we must ACCEPT and EMBRACE these individuals for whatever marsupials they like to insert, etc.
This just is not a good idea. Everyone- just don’t pry into others’ lives, and by all means- all of us- mind our own damn business. The Freddie Mercury crew- don’t make your business ours. What is so damn hard about that?
You guys don’t accept my lack of tolerance, and I don’t accept your habits. How ’bout both of us leave that stuff at home and go to work?
9:22 pm on July 15th, 2009 13
If Other Countries Allow Gays to Serve in the Military Why Can’t the US?
'Cause we're not other countries.
Reminds me of the Kalifornistanis who move to Idaho and start whining about how "In Kali we did this…in Kali, we did that…You guys ought to do thus and so…" My answer to them is to move back to Kali if they miss it so damn much, and stay out of our business- we like what we have just fine.
Homos.
12:23 am on July 16th, 2009 14
The Australian soldiers marched under an official defense force banner wearing an ADF t-shirt. There has been a push to have them march in uniform which no one wants to touch right now because that would put gay pride parades on the same level as ANZAC Day. The British military sponsors people in uniform to go to parades in the guise of recruiting:
If a gay soldier wants to march in a gay pride parade I could care less, but they shouldn't be expected to be sponsored by the military just like straight soldiers shouldn't expect to be sponsored to march in a heterosexual parade. Joe everyone is already used to gays serving in the military and most polls show people like myself don't care. To this day the gripes about females in the military is about special treatment. The same thing will happen with gays in the military if they are given special treatment over other soldiers.
12:26 am on July 16th, 2009 15
FEEL FREE TO GO TO THOSE COUNTRIES AND LIVE THERE FOREVER.
YOU ARE / WILL BE THE DOWNFALL OF THE MILITARY THAT KEEPS US FREE.
YOU AND O'BAMA, RUINING THE COUNTRY ONE DAY AT A TIME.
12:27 am on July 16th, 2009 16
Leon, you are just pointing out what I said before, the issue not about gays serving because they already are, it is about special treatment if they are allowed to serve openly. That is what no one is talking about.
1:43 am on July 16th, 2009 17
Everyone is keying on a concern the gays will start demanding special treatment, but I don't see any substantive examples of where that happens in those countries that allow openly gay troops.
Even the the special treatment arguments against women, like PT qualification exceptions, are trivial compared to the biggest special treatment gripe of troops since I first went in. That was the complaints of the single GIs about all of the special perks given to married GIs.
So, down the road, after openly guy troops have settled in and gay marriage becomes more common place in American society, maybe then we can deal with both the gay and hetero marriage special privilege issues together.
7:31 am on July 16th, 2009 18
Hi Joec, please read my post immediately below. That is what we are talking about, not gays being issued gold gym bags or something.
8:00 am on July 16th, 2009 19
See, stupid political cheapshots work both ways Mike. However this blog and its posters are above such things. Please remember that in the future when posting here.
2:29 pm on July 16th, 2009 20
So in practice you DO have a problem with gays serving. By default you must because as you stated, you don’t want to celebrate things like Gay Awareness Week etc.
2:58 pm on July 16th, 2009 21
Glad to see Mike has been asleep for almost a decade.
3:57 am on July 17th, 2009 22
Hey A Listner, Mike has a right to not like it and express his opinion. I don't like the idea of repealing the ban either. I think it is a road to our own ruin. I happen to believe that it will destroy unit cohesion. Since the majority of Americans and service members are hetrosexual, why should we have to change to acommodate someones alternative lifestyle when the majority of us don't practice it? Why should we (the majority) be forced to accept this? Lots of servicemembers and Americans do not want this lifestyle forced on them. It is the loud bellowing of the few that make the decisions for the many. And by the way many service members are just afraid to speak truthfully of not LIKING the homosexual lifestyle.
6:24 am on July 17th, 2009 23
88MM,
You are absolutely right… and, taken abolutely, this means no championing of the homosexual lifestyle, no special treatment for women, no black history month, no hispanic achivement month… etc.
…and I'm not being sarcastic.
The moment you start pointing out how different you are is the moment you beg for discriminaton from the majority… and that goes double when you ask for special treatment.
12:07 pm on July 17th, 2009 24
88MM, said:
"Since the majority of Americans and service members are hetrosexual, why should we have to change to acommodate someones alternative lifestyle when the majority of us don’t practice it? Why should we (the majority) be forced to accept this? Lots of servicemembers and Americans do not want this lifestyle forced on them."
Please tell us exactly what change will be imposed on you. How do you think your life will change having to work next to a guy who says he is gay?
I got over my own homophobia at a young age when someone pointed out that it showed more about my own insecurities than the gay people I was so worried about. Once you are confident in who you are, it shouldn't matter what other people say or do. Live your own life and let them live theirs.
2:37 pm on July 17th, 2009 25
OK game on–
But at what point do we draw the line, or we continue to embrace and tolerate the intolerable, and accept the unacceptable? These people have been pushing the shock agenda for years. It's about some kind of power and "gettin' even with The Man". It has so little to do with actual human rights.
What makes their right to pound each other up the back door something we all need to know about?
I don't care- but I am not interested in what you do, a homo does, or a hetero does.
Make it my business, and you will get it tossed right back at you with a big GO DO THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE! In fact, if it makes me uncomfortable, I can go to my supervisor or the PC Kommissars and say that that person is creating a hostile working environment. It's sexual harassment, it's illegal, and I don't have to take it!
5:07 pm on July 17th, 2009 26
JOEC I noticed you have studiously ignored the comments and questions I raised in post #5 even after I invited you to respond. Perhaps it is a part of the issue you cannot argue for/against while promoting you ideals?
5:09 pm on July 17th, 2009 27
I think a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy actually ensures that no special treatment is given all the while not banning it outright.
I had the experience of having two gay roommates back in college in a room of five guys. We all started with an open mind.
We were all different. I was the foreign one, we had one guy who was kind of an ex-goth, one guy who was a jock and we had one ex-swimmer and one big time music fan.
At that point in my life I had a completely open view about gay folks but that year was so stressful that I managed to get a GPA of 1.6, which is shocking for someone who got just above a 3.5 in a pretty competitive high school.
The jock guy, he finally got fed up and left early in the 2nd semester and the ex-Goth guy (who ironically never really got upset over much) actually started getting really pissed off.
For the following year, we had this one other guy we knew who said he was going to room with a gay guy. We told him it was a bad idea but he just told us that we were prejudiced and that he was better than us. After 3 months, he couldn't take it anymore and left.
The point is, they IMPOSE their gayness onto us and although I have lived with culture shock my whole life (lived in so many different places with people of all sorts of nationalities, religions, etc.) I had never had an experience that stressful before.
It's different when people just show up to work and then go home, but in the military, that's not always an option and the last thing I need is for someone to go "field fairy" in the barracks or tent when we have something far more important to do.
"Don't Ask, Don'T Tell" is just right. It doesn't ban them from serving, but it does ban them from distracting us for all the wrong reasons.
5:11 pm on July 17th, 2009 28
Obviously this guy has never lived with gay people. They impose more than just about any other group I've met.
They don't force you to be gay or anything but they just rub it all over your face.
(no pun intended)
5:28 pm on July 17th, 2009 29
Sir, I concur. As I stated above, if they are allowed to serve openly there WILL be "Gay heritage Month" there will be special privileges. It just doesn't pass the common sense test. Besides, it WILL kill recruiting numbers from the red states. Are we willing to jeopardize losing 100,000 or 200,000 a year or whatever it is to make a small minority happy? Are Sean Penn and Barney Frank and all the other left coast fellas going to be able to make up these numbers?
5:35 pm on July 17th, 2009 30
Not only that, it's going to be a major victory for extremist militant Islam as well.
It's going to boost their recruiting numbers.
9:05 pm on July 17th, 2009 31
I didn't respond because I didn't understand your point. You talk about having to attend Gay Pride Month activities. I don't see how the military can require you to do that.
The last marginalized group to be sanctioned by the military was the Wiccans. They didn't ask for much, just not to be discriminated against. They wanted access to communal space for their gatherings just like all religious groups in the military. And they wanted the right to have their religious symbol, the pentacle, placed on their tombstones at Arlington just like deceased service members of other faiths. I don't consider that special treatment. I haven't heard them ask for much more and I haven't heard that military leaders were encouraged to attend their ceremonies against their will.
I don't think the military will ask you to embrace your gay co-worker for their gayness . All that can be asked is to be tolerant and not treat them different because they are gay.
You went on to say something about having to give speeches of appreciation for them. When you acknowledge appreciation for good work, would the fact the the person happens to be gay or not matter? When you give appreciation to your female, black or Jewish troops, do you feel you have to interject a comment that their gender, race, or religion contributed to their ability. At least I hope you don't.
We have probably had Medal of Honor awardees who were gay. Their biographers might want point out their sexual preference, but I don't think that bit of trivia belongs on the citation for their deeds.
Someone else later says gays can be annoying to live with. He is right. I have never roomed with a gay person as far as I know. But I have had annoying room-mates. In all cases, I confront them and set some ground rules, else one of us would have to move out. I suspect that if I had to be in close quarters with an annoying gay person for an extended period of time I would do the same thing again.
9:46 pm on July 17th, 2009 32
My biggest fear is that guys who are straight yet lonely will become homosexuals… not intentionally… they will just get sucked into it.
11:26 pm on July 17th, 2009 33
Why don't you put yourself in that hypothetical soldier's shoes.
You'd have to be VERY lonely!
1:44 am on July 18th, 2009 34
It was a joke… but not really.
After talking to a Korean and a Filipino/a ladyboy in Songtan, I found that situational homosexuality is alive and well among lonely GIs… and they paid a couple hundred bucks for the pleasure…
…although, in their defense, most of them had no idea what they were getting into… although that didn't stop them once they got there and were faced with the choice of making the best of it… or nothing.
Then again, I read that tranny porn has moved from the gay to the straight section in American smut shops… so maybe the image is more important than the equipment in determining gayness.
Y'all can make up your own minds on that one.
10:13 am on July 18th, 2009 35
Not a porn connoisseur, but that's just WEIRD, man!
Bottom line- we already have enough "Great Ideas" to put up with which the smug, arrogant, condescending, and sanctimonious PC crowd has dumped on us with an indignant "Deal with it!". To hell with them, and to hell with anything they want. It has nothing to do with equal rights, the fags are pawns, though willing pawns. It's about power and further insidious infiltration and destruction of yet another respected institution- currently, an institution which seems to have more respect than any other.
10:23 am on July 18th, 2009 36
Some of them boys in this part of the world are so effeminate that it makes you wonder if plowing them really would count for homosexuality.
I guess it's possible if you do it with a "prison rape" mentality or something.
7:45 am on January 29th, 2010 37
nice…actually, i think you would like that, wouldn't you?
7:50 am on January 29th, 2010 38
and the integration of African-Americans and white people were gladly accepted in the military during the 50s through the vietnam and so on?
1:40 pm on January 29th, 2010 39
However, females must be afforded female-only restrooms and berthing areas. For the same reason that you can't force a woman to stay in a barracks with a man, you can't force a straight man to live in a barracks with a gay man. Until the government is willing to pony up an awful lot of dough to build separate, gay-only barracks and latrines you won't be able to have gays openly serving in the military. If I were still a servicemember and the gov told me I had to live, shit and shower with someone who, by their very nature, wants to come on to me and I want none of it, I would consider ita gross invasion of my privacy every bit as much as it would be if a male soldier went waltzing into the female showers and started gawking around at all the little fillies there. If the chicks have a right to separate facilities, then so do straight folk.