By Via a reader tip here is a letter to the editor to the Stars & Stripes in response to a recent article that has caused plenty of commentary here on the ROK Drop:
I can think of a million reasons why “juicy bars” should be placed off-limits (“Thinly veiled propositions,” article, Sept. 8), but here are my top three:
1. A major hit to human trafficking and prostitution. Who cares about the bar owners’ loss of revenue? Let them find a more honorable means of earning a living.
2. We preach to the soldier to be fiscally responsible, yet we allow these establishments to exist. I don’t see the point of handing over $10 a pop just to “talk.” Let’s face it, while these establishments couldn’t care less where their next buck comes from, the primary targets are junior enlisted soldiers who can least afford to hand over that type of scratch.
3. Spare the families back home from the shock when their 20-year-old son comes home with a 30-year-old pregnant wife in tow. The ladies know what they are doing, the young (and often immature) men have no idea what they just got themselves into. Your story references Camp Casey, South Korea, home of the “Stroller Brigade.” Do your research if you don’t know what that means.
Bottom line: These morally corrupt establishments provide a service that is not in keeping with the Army core values. In fact, one could argue (and win) that juicy bars detrimentally affect the mission, but more importantly, the soldier.
Maj. Pete Michael
Camp Henry, South Korea
Major Michael is absolutely right in regards to the financial ruin these juicy girl establishments cause for young soldiers. This is mainly caused by troops bringing their credit card with them down to the ville. Once they get drunk they whip out the credit card and wrecklessly spend with it. It isn’t always young troops either. I once saw an E-8 in the Head Club at TDC charge $5,000 on his credit card there. However, an E-8 can likely recover from that expense, but a young soldier would have a much harder time. That is why I always told soldiers to never bring their credit cards to the ville with them.
4:41 pm on September 20th, 2009 1
Last time I checked, servicemembers were legally adults. Why are we treating them like children all the time? Are many of them young and immature? Sure, but that’s none of our business. I get more than a little sick of the “higher-ups” pushing their moral codes on grown men and women.
E-8s and O-6s get in trouble over there all the time under the cloud of morally questionable deeds (anyone recall the brigade commander that was relieved over there less than a year ago?).
Leave the men and women in uniform alone. Treat them like the adults that they are and let them make their own decisions. Some will choose wisely and some will choose poorly–that is life. But it is their lives, and their decisions to make.
I remember back ten years ago when I was serving in Area III and the commander ordered that beer was to be removed from the vending machines in the barracks. He said, “I won’t have kids with easy access to alcohol drinking in my barracks!” This decision was made based upon no trends of alcohol related incidents–it was simply something that he found personally objectionable. Sadly, I didn’t possess the rank or position at the time to point out that:
a. The soldiers in question aren’t “kids.”
and
b. Since there had been no alcohol related incidents directly tied to said vending machines it was really none of his f*$king business.
The same thing applies to the “Juicies.” The servicemembers may be young, but they are not “kids.” And many of them–as young as they are–have led combat patrols and taken human lives by their own hand. If this is the case, can we not allow these men and women to determine how they spend their hard-earned money? Can we not allow them to enter into relationships with members of the opposite sex?
Are the “Juicies” distasteful? Yes. Are most of them jaded with an eye to taking advantage of young men? Yes. Still, it’s none of our business.
People don’t like the “Stroller Brigade.” I could care less. I tell those that make the comments whispered comments under their breath to quit acting like a bunch of old women in a sewing circle and mind their own damned business.
Tend to your own lives and leave these men and women alone.
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September 21st, 2009 at 4:36 am
Apples & oranges, dweeb-o.
Beer in vending machines isn’t illegal, but making it available to people who aren’t old enough or otherwise entitled to consuming it is. The commander was right in removing the beer from the vending machines because there’s absolutely no control over who buys it.
Filipina employees at juicy bars are largely trafficked into Korea for the purpose of prostitution. You have no logical argument for USFK to not place these establishments off limits. No matter how much you mention about the Republic of Korea not enforcing its laws against prostitution, or not; no matter how relevant you think that it is that soldiers had sex with prostitutes in 3,500 BC; no matter how much you think that you are entitled to free will, al of your arguments are BS.
US service members are members of two things: the US military and American society. Both of those things have established moral, ethical, and legal norms. Prostitution and human trafficking counter all three of those norms. You might not like it, but tough. The uniforms that US service members put on all day stand for things. If you don’t like the values that you’ve been assigned to live by in your chosen profession, then go home. You’re not a conscript. You don’t want the Kool-aid? Then don’t drink it.
Also, that brigade commander who got in trouble last year GOT IN TROUBLE. I don’t know why you even mention him in this.
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September 21st, 2009 at 8:00 am
Yes…Which brings another argument to mind…The legal age to drink in the US is 21. That doesn’t make any sense. It certainly doesn’t discourage binge drinking, it might actually encourage it. Besides, why are adults (18 to 21 year-olds) (ironically, people in the case are old enough to protect and die for their country), treated like babies? Even I, a non-American, find it ludicrous that an American soldier can get in trouble for having a beer.
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September 21st, 2009 at 9:12 am
“We preach to the soldier to be fiscally responsible, yet we allow these establishments to exist. I don’t see the point of handing over $10 a pop just to “talk.””
Price gouging isn’t limited to those bars. Just to name a few, tacky golf clothes, organic food, domestic beef and pork, and LCD TVs are all overpriced in Korea.
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September 21st, 2009 at 9:13 am
The above wasn’t meant to be posted here as a reply.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:15 am
You should have titled it, “Paying to rape children…”.
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6:33 pm on September 20th, 2009 2
Leave the men and women in uniform alone. Treat them like the adults that they are and let them make their own decisions. Some will choose wisely and some will choose poorly–that is life. But it is their lives, and their decisions to make.
Sound advice for ordinary life. But it’s the brass’s job to keep the troops fit and ready. And the soldiers know they signed away many rights when they joined the service.
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September 21st, 2009 at 8:57 am
That’s nothing.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/01/22/ot-queen-080122.html
Yup, to join the Canadian military, you a slave to a foreign monarch (I had my free hand behind my back, fingers crossed, as I was signing the document. I know, it has no legal weight, but it gave me peace of mind). I know, she’s technically the leader of Canada…But, that’s just because there are still too many old monarchists alive to make the constitutional amendment needed to rid ourselves once and for all of this vestige of British imperialism.
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6:35 pm on September 20th, 2009 3
When a guy spends 50 or 100 bucks on a dinner date with a girl, he is likely pursuing the same goal. Should all similar practices be prohibited?
For the non-military readers, the movie An Officer and a Gentleman depicts an all too real environment that grows around large military communities, even in the States. I wonder if Maj. Michael would have anything to say about that.
Many years ago I attended the wedding reception of a guy who worked with me while stationed in New Jersey. I overheard some of the bride’s girlfriends talking about the great life she would have as a military spouse; free military housing and world travel. I noticed one of girls was particularly caught up in the discussion. She was later latched on to another young man who worked for me. Three months later they were married. A couple years later I met him while I was passing through the Philippines. He was stationed there. I later met some other GI’s we were stationed with in New Jersey. They told me about his situation. His wife had a reputation for being a ‘party girl.’ I found that she was also known to even many of the filipina bargirls who thought she was disgraceful. They knew she had a husband at home taking care of her kids he inherited when he married her while she was out almost every night in bars trying to compete with them. Sometimes walking out with their customers and, as far as they knew, she wasn’t even asking to get paid for her activities.
As USFK pushes ahead with opening more family command sponsored positions for junior grade GI’s you will start to see younger, more adventurous and restless homegrown American spouses, fascinated with the nightlife and partying. Get ready.
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September 20th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
It has already began…
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8:32 pm on September 20th, 2009 4
I think the girl in the front with the short red skirt is great, the other two are detrimental.
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September 21st, 2009 at 1:54 am
What??? I would f the hell outta the one sitting on the right!
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September 21st, 2009 at 5:14 am
You would? Guess you have to pay to get it.
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3:12 am on September 21st, 2009 5
“When a guy spends 50 or 100 bucks on a dinner date with a girl, he is likely pursuing the same goal. Should all similar practices be prohibited?”
You are on the slippery slope that leads to a gay world. No thanks.
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5:12 am on September 21st, 2009 6
I served at Camp Casey, Feb 89-Mar 92. It appears things haven’t changed except it was trafficking in Korean girls (not women) rather than Phili girls. These girls are forced into this and have no way out. They are beaten when they don’t “perform” as instructed. It is RAPE. Anyone who likes things as they are, are simply paying to rape children…. Says alot about who you are.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Morgan may be speaking of his own experences, but otherwose he is lying. There are no children getting raped there, unless you were part of it. You may have commiteed crimes WDMORGAN.
One thing that needs to be improved is juicy quality. I suggest they wear a card around their neck that ensures quality. For example, if she is a “two holer” or “three holer”. I also want a quality rating on her BJ abilty. Something like “Grampa tested, Uncle approved!”
Also, a seal of freshness that shows how many kids they have, and how long they have been in the country.
It is only through strict quality checking can we improve the quality of our juicy girls.
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7:14 am on September 21st, 2009 7
The “Stroller Brigade” isn’t the culprit here. Flip girls are nice-uh and no one has anthing against them. Except your friends in the states who they’ve now divorced and dumped.
They’re just trying to make a living in the ROK like we are. If you want to bring them on base, marry them, go ahead. There’s a legal way to do it.
Its the scumbag bar owner hustlers you should boycott. Odishi won’t get a dime from me.
I agree USFK should bankrupt them, but lets treat the Joe’s like adults. But the irony is all my frieds who married these girls said that they never bought juicie or barfines…
Maybe they had Game, or maybe no one admits that they play the game…
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3:11 pm on September 21st, 2009 8
Once again, someone in the military has decided that their morality is the best and has proclaimed the way things should be.
You don’t like juicy girls? Fine, stay out of the club.
You don’t like prostitutes? Fine, stay out of the whorehouse.
But don’t decide that your moral values are more important just because of your rank, or your religion.
Do you really think you are the person that is going to change thousands of years of soldiers visiting the local business girls?
You’ll be gone in a year, and things will be the same after you have left.
Why don’t you make an effort to enrich the soldiers lives, or training, or better their equipment while you are here?
Thats a little more difficult than making a moral proclamation, isn’t it?
Are you just as concerned for your soldiers financial well-being back in the states?
Have you spoken out about predatory lending by car dealers, furniture stores, and payday loan shops?
Have you ever gone to a car dealer to get a soldier out of a bad loan?
Have you ever taken up a collection so a soldier can pay car insurance to drive to post?
Lastly, a male or female soldier has sexual urges and needs, it has been shown time and time again that you cannot get even the most disciplined soldier to forget about sex.
Would you rather they release that pent up energy with rape, or homosexuality?
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September 21st, 2009 at 6:26 pm
You can say “if you don’t like it stay away” all you want. But what about the gay lifestyle. You can stay away from the gays, but their lifestyle will be everywhere if we don’t nip it. Also, what about a farmer kid, who never seen the gay lifestyle and suddenly he is tricked.
The US didn’t win the cold war by ignoring it and staying away. It was won by kicking its behind. Americans would do well to remember that.
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September 21st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
The Duke of YongJuGol, what do you know about Yong Ju Gol??? lol I was there from 86 to 87
If you were there during that time, tell me what happened in the Happy Club, that made the girls change their hair color.
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6:34 pm on September 21st, 2009 9
I would think that Army supported gambling on base and Army supported sales of Alcohol and Tobacco would be more serious issues to address since they have statistically proven detrimental effects on health and well-being of soldiers. Please don’t confuse Army values with your misguided self-righteous faith-based morality.
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6:41 pm on September 21st, 2009 10
i was a young enlisted guy back when there was no off-limits in the 90’s and never went to these places
there is just to much hot normal Puntang out there that will get drunk with you give you that stuff all night and the entire next day
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September 21st, 2009 at 7:24 pm
John, it sounds like you never tasted the cream of a juicy. Nothing like it, never was, never will be. Maybe you should not have spent so much time with the fairy boys.
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1:58 am on September 22nd, 2009 11
Some of these comments are ridiculous.
I happen to be an officer currently assigned to Camp Casey. This is my first post here.
If the Juicy bars are wrong and should be banned, then petition the Korean government to ban them! Simple as that. Why is it the job of the US military to enforce morality, values, and laws in Korea? Aren’t we heavily criticized already for interfering in other government’s affairs?
Truth is, no matter how much you detest these bars, a lot of soldiers like them, and frequent them a lot. And these soldiers are all adults. They don’t need you making decisions for them. A couple years ago, when the military decided to make it illegal to patronize prostitutes, it widely overstepped its bounds. Especially in countries like Germany where prostitution is perfectly legal, strictly regulated, and human trafficking is almost non-existent. It seems strange that any US citizen can legally patronize a prostitute in Germany, but just not a US military member. What is the logic behind that?
And where do we stop? Should the US military ban certain types of clothing because many sweatshops have people making them in slave-like conditions? Should it ban chocolate, since much African chocolate is harvested by African children treated like slaves? Should it ban the sale tuna since Tunas are rapidly disappearing from the Earth? Please answer me any one of those. When does this imposition of morality stop? Morally, all of these things may be the right thing to do, but…THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE US MILITARY OR ITS MISSION IN KOREA!!!!
Regulations concerning our private sex lives outside of work have no place in the UCMJ. Simple as that. If you don’t like these clubs, don’t go to them. And petition the Korean government to crack down on them. It simply isn’t our business.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 2:14 am
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September 22nd, 2009 at 4:09 am
Spoken like a true “cherry” Lieutenant. One day, you will realize that your Soldier’s business…Is your business.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 am
Read again, I wasn’t talking about soldier’s business. I’m talking about people wanting to make the clubs off limits/shut them down. Why would it be my business to enforce Korean laws??
And sure my soldier’s business is my business. But there is a line. And I draw the limit at personal matters that don’t affect work performance. For example, I’ll advise soldiers not to spend all their money in the ville, and not to date/marry a juicy girl. But I’m not going to forbid it unless it’s somehow interfering with his duties.
Do you also think it’s appropriate for a leader to determine who someone dates/socializes with or marries? Are you going to dictate when soldiers can have children or where they can invest their money?
And incidentally, I’m a Captain with 15 years in service.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 am
With your logic, I’m surprised that you have 15 years of service. While I can appreciate your decentralized version of troop involvement – it doesn’t work. That’s what mediocre leaders do. Good leaders are involved (not imposing) with their Soldier’s personal lives. I’m fully aware that leader involvement does not work for some Soldiers, but most enjoy and appreciate the concern for their life after duty hours. It’s not just about their work performance – good leaders know this.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 am
Which means only four of those have been as an officer responsible for his/her soldiers. Let me know when you have picked up a few more of your soldiers from detention after they put down a couple of grand on a maxed out credit card for a juicy, assaulted somebody in a argument over their “girlfriend” who has 15 other boyfriends or they can’t stand post because they have to go on profile for their next round of STD treatments. Yes you are resonsible for those things–can’t hack it or don’t care about it, get out of the officer corps…
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:50 am
Young enlisted guys are now subjected to Human Trafficking with NO LEADERSHIP from either the Korean or U.S. Government to protect them. In one sentence they’ll tell you don’t do it then they ignore hundreds of trafficked girls/women right out the gate.
The US just wants to keep it’s presence in Asia, they don’t care one bit about young women being trafficked from other countries and forced into prostitution. The US cares way more about it’s own interests then it does the people that work for them. I mean, if there ever was a case where you’d hope the US would back you up on it would be to at least PROTECT THE YOUNG TROOPS!
Freak, any normal US citizen who came to Korea and walked out the gate into one of these ville’s would go “Holy Shit, this is dirty and despicable!! Then they would know what kind of cesspools these troops are subjected to.
It’s wrong on so many levels it’s still shocking to me that people will defend it. I understand the old days were sleazy too but it wasn’t trafficking from other poor countries.
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:23 am
MJ4Life – you are on point. TRULY – this not about telling Soldiers what the can and cannot do (as many on here would have you believe). This is a leadership issue, and leaders have a distinct duty to protect and EDUCATE their Soldiers. Until, the Korean Gov’t and USFK decide to make it their issue – the status quo will remain.
I’m amazed at the level of ignorance and selfishness when folks deride this as a “personal” issue. It’s not personal, it has long-lasting effects for those who play the game. By no means am I prude; but don’t dump the trash just outside the gates of each installation. What does that say about us (it says: supply & demand).
Trust me, it won’t be long before another major news outlet picks up on the Juicy Bar/Prostitution story and makes it National news. Only after the Army receives another black “media” eye will they act. Too little, too late.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:10 pm
On problem I have with the “Who are you to coddle or dictate to anybody?” theme – about making rules to control people’s lives – in the military is — it’s the military…
When you sign up, don’t you expect to give up a buttload of your rights and priviledges that civilians enjoy? I’m not offering a value judgement about whether that is right or wrong, but that is how it is and always has been, right? That’s why so many don’t sign up for a 2nd tour, isn’t? — they can’t handle the structure, authority, subordination, and forfieting of freedoms we take for granted as civilians and get really pissed when the government interferes with them…
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Yep, it’s all about Leadership and in todays military Leadership means look the other way. I walk in the ville(day or night) and I see a lot of things that would so disappoint these young GI’s parents and I don’t see ANY LEADERSHIP at all-PERIOD.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
First off, I would HIGHLY recommend that everyone refrain from personal attacks and keep this discussion civil. OK? Incidentally, I noticed that none of those criticizing me were able to answer any of the questions I put above.
And the discussion is getting a little off track. Consider this:
1. It’s not our business to shut down the clubs. This is NOT debatable – it’s a legal fact. USFK is not an occupation force. It is not within our jurisdiction to enforce Korean law or shut down Korean establishments. We can pressure the Korean govt to do it, but that’s all.
2. As far as attacking my military experience: Well the USFK commander, 8th Army commander, and 2ID commander have far more years in service than I do, and (for the time being at least) they agree with me, since they haven’t made the clubs off limits. So I must be in good company.
3. Sure, picking up your soldier up from the MP station sucks, but that’s part of the job of being a Cdr, plt Ldr, or 1st Sergeant. If you don’t like it, tough. Find another job. But as leaders, there are other options to prevent crazy behavior. Simply making the clubs off limits or restricting your soldiers to post should be a last resort only for true emergencies. Doing solely it as a pre-emptive measure against future bad behavior is pure laziness on the part of a leader. Besides, if you lock down soldiers all the time, they will only act like animals when they are released. I’ve seen it happen time and time again.
5. If you’re stationed at Yongsan or any other comfortable location, you might think there’s no problem. But 2ID is different. Exactly where are 2ID soldiers to go in their free time? Maybe YOU enjoy spending all your free time at the PX or the chapel. But that’s not realistic for all soldiers, particularly for single male soldiers in their 20s. And especially at Casey/Hovey where the male to female ratio on post is so skewed, and due to barracks policies, there’s nowhere to be alone on post with your date anyway (unless you are able to book a room at the Casey lodge). Itaewon is a little far, and half of its clubs are off-limits anyway. Jihaeng is good, but without a guide, most soldiers have no idea where to go.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Here I agree with you, and actually, I’ve argued this line a few times over the years. Ultimately, it is the Korean government’s legal responsibility to uphold its own laws. The Korean government is ultimately the one responsible for the situation, because it can attack the illegal operations itself. If USFK had the legal authority to do sting operations that would lead to the arrest of the bar owners, prostitutes, and GIs, it would be a different matter. South Korean policy have all that power…
However, I repeat from the last comment, the idea against restricting the rights of the GIs doesn’t hold much weight with me, because — it’s the military…..If 3-4 years-and-out people leave because they don’t like having themselves restricted by such things as being punished for going to clubs that have been put off-limits due to illegal activity – so be it. Many people find they can’t handle giving up their civilian perogatives even without landing in Korea. (Of course, if the off-limits process is corrupted by illegal town patrol officers and MPs, that’s a different story…)
Lastly,
That shows a lack of initiative/immagination. There is more to Korea than a PX or chapel or juicy bar….even if the 18 and 19 year olds can’t see that…
I knew a major who said when he was stationed in Korea, he went to local restaurants and businesses and non-business places like tourist spots to talk to the Korean managers to create a list of GI-friendly spots (some who decided to offer discounts) and interesting locations — to put together in a phamplet for GIs under his command – so they would get out and do more than hit juicy bars and spend their lives off base in the ville.
I believe he was in the 2ID area at that time.
He said the program seemed to work, but when he rotated out, it died with the change in command…
I am not military, but I would suggest that guy showed leadership in trying to address a specific problem as well as trying to better the experience his troops while in Korea.
There is more to do in Korea than getting drunk and sinking all your money into clubs….(Though I have nothing against bar hopping in general…)
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7:53 am on September 22nd, 2009 12
Bones,
I was in YongJuGol from 88-92.
Legend has it that the girls from the Happy Club went TDY to Seoul during the olympics and a few got beaten for having blond hair. So they just stopped after that.
The happy club eneded up turning into a VFW for a while, until the operators got busted for black market booze.
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7:01 pm on September 22nd, 2009 13
LORDOFE2
“There are no children getting raped there, unless you were part of it.”
Uhh… technically speaking…
There are always a number of Filipina girls under 18 who are there on a cousin’s passport.
Under current US law, overseas commercial sex with a girl under 18 is punishable by 30 years… Google: PROTECT Act.
So… while everyone has their own moral construct (or rationalization) on fresh little 16 year-olds, the federal government sees it a certain way.
Although USFK leadership is very aware of this type of thing going on Downtown they would rather not get involved… which would be understandable… but there is a flaw in some people’s logic here.
To Captain John Rohan…
While I fully agree with your basic idea, kindly explain how USFK leadership can ignore clubs with forced/coerced prostitution, obvious human trafficking and open sexual exploitation because “we can’t enforce Korean laws”…
…but will quickly put a club off-limits for even the rumor of a legal after-curfew party?
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September 22nd, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Not sure if I understand your question. But I think that’s simply wrong. Soldiers are adults, and should be treated like such unless they behave otherwise. It amazes me that we somehow need a curfew for soldiers in Korea, but not in Germany or anywhere in the USA? Is there something different about the air in Korea that causes young soldiers there to behave badly there and nowhere else?
Or maybe (more likely) its certain leaders, bored with the fact that the next Korean war hasn’t happened, wildly overreacting to a few incidents or to media reports, such as the Stars/Stripes article here. For example, I can’t even count how many mandatory classes I’ve had to sit through on sexual assault over the past year. Yet, our battalion has not had a single case of sexual assault (or even an accusation) since I’ve been here. Nor can I find any record of one in the last few years as well.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
“Under current US law, overseas commercial sex with a girl under 18 is punishable by 30 years… Google: PROTECT Act”
Not exactly, going overseas with the PURPOSE of underage sex is illegal. That law is for sexual tourism. So if you were a retired GI in Angles city bang 8 year old boys then you would be in violation.
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8:25 pm on September 22nd, 2009 14
LORDOFE2,
There is some confusion on this. Since 1986, it has been illegal to travel overseas with the intent to have sex with someone under 18… the loophole being that intent was hard to prove.
However…
“To get a conviction under the new law, prosecutors do not have to prove that U.S. residents left the country specifically to have illegal sex — only that they had illegal sex or tried to do so.”
You check out the Department of State website… it says nothing about purposes or intent.
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1467.html
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September 22nd, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Thanks for that information Chicken!
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8:42 pm on September 22nd, 2009 15
John,
“Not sure if I understand your question.”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear.
I don’t think we have any conflict… as I am in agreement with more leadership and less babysitting of GI Joe.
My question is this…
Why does USFK leadership find every way possible to ignore and defend the juicy clubs and juicy system.
Yet for all the enthusiastic “can’t police downtown” and “can’t interfere in Korean business”, there is no problem policing downtown and interfering with Korean businesses when curfew issues are involved?
This is a serious question because, depending on how it is answered, it leads to much more interesting questions.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 10:07 pm
“Why does USFK leadership find every way possible to ignore and defend the juicy clubs and juicy system.”
Wow – I really see it the opposite way. I would have agreed with you when I was here in the 1990s, but not now. To me it feels like the USFK/EUSA/2ID leadership is constantly looking for any excuse to ban any club, and they exercise that power as often as possible. Especially now that they are trying to make the peninsula more family friendly.
They don’t want to ban juicy clubs outright, but their reasons are probably different than mine. I’m guessing its more because such actions have secondary effects that ruin the relationship with the ROK. For example, if the clubs shut down, then the restaurants, souvenier shops, and tailors nearby would greatly suffer as well. Besides, some of these bars are legit. They aren’t all fronts for human trafficking and prostitution.
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September 22nd, 2009 at 10:14 pm
If you ever tasted the cream of a juicy girl, you would never dream of closing a juicy bar. The one in the red dress looks like she is ready to be chewed on like a lovely juicy peach.
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10:15 pm on September 22nd, 2009 16
@CH with respect to his question about USFK Leadership.
I think this ~really~ depends on the base / area in question. Out here in Daegu with CP Walker / Henry / George (really all three work as a single entity) there isn’t really a “ville” anymore. There were a few bars outside CP Henry that had prostitution going on, but they’ve all been placed off limits, and have been so for awhile. The owner of one even went so far as to close the bar, then setup at a different location under a new name. The “new” bar was quickly placed off limits until she could prove it wasn’t a prostitution bar.
Now there are several “juicy” bars outside gate 4 of CP Walker. But they are staffed by Korean girls, and sexual services are not available. For TWN’s you have to go down the street a take a left past a big highway. There are two maybe three bars there with Filipina’s and Russian’s, but again sex is not for sale. The leadership out here has a zero tolerance policy, they find a bar with that stuff, it goes off limits immediately. The business owners (around the base) are so worried about decreased sales, they don’t even skirt that rule.
If you wanted prostitution, you’d have to go to a different district of town and venture into the “Korean Only” area’s (not all are like that). But these are available in every city of SK.
But I hear many of the places north of Seoul have serious issued with juicy bars and what not. I know in my few visits to the CP Cassey or CRC area’s I was shocked at the amount of the Filipina’s that worked out there. And the number of bars in the area that as basically expensive clones of whats in PI.
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11:02 pm on September 22nd, 2009 17
THEOTHERGUY,
I should clarify that what I speak about is primarily about Songtan/Osan AB.
There has been a VERY close relationship between the worst club owners and Osan leadership for a long time… when this relationship is occasionally exposed through acts of obvious corruption in Osan leadership, everybody, from poster here to Stars & Stripes hacks, avoids the obvious and un-rationalize-able questions.
John,
“Wow – I really see it the opposite way. I would have agreed with you when I was here in the 1990s, but not now. To me it feels like the USFK/EUSA/2ID leadership is constantly looking for any excuse to ban any club, and they exercise that power as often as possible.”
Hmmm… it looks like their Appearance Is Reality Management is working well… so much so that even the home team is starting to believe it.
Short-term bans on clubs generate some We Are Doing Something Paperwork and makes the drones actually think Action Is Being Taken (no offense to you here) but when you think about it, year after year the same Good Neighbor golfers keep making vast sums of cash by exploiting Filipinas and ripping off GIs with empty promises based on the absolute worst business model possible to “allow” the adult freedoms we both agree GIs should enjoy… with the implicit support of USFK leadership.
(In the past USFK has cracked down on some miserable scams that targeted GIs so we know they ARE capable of making their desires be felt Downtown.)
Further, these fake crackdowns are subject to no true transparency or due process which invites corruption among USFK personnel who are responsible for investigating, enforcing and acting upon off-limits-worthy violations.
Upon consideration, you may agree that making a big effort to cover up the appearance of a problem is hardly the same as solving the problem… and, as the clubs and their way of doing business continues you may agree the problem is not being solved.
A lot of young guys are “adults” but they are inexperienced adults. Just like on the battlefield, they need leadership and mentoring and occasionally protection from the dangers they don’t see coming until they are experienced enough to make good decisions.
USFK leadership has joined the enemy team in this situation.
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September 23rd, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“Hmmm… it looks like their Appearance Is Reality Management is working well… so much so that even the home team is starting to believe it.
Short-term bans on clubs generate some We Are Doing Something Paperwork and makes the drones actually think Action Is Being Taken (no offense to you here)”
No offense, because I agree. I think the bannings are more to improve USFK’s image than anything else. But, in their defense, short of banning ALL nightclubs period – what else are they supposed to do?
“A lot of young guys are “adults” but they are inexperienced adults. Just like on the battlefield, they need leadership and mentoring and occasionally protection from the dangers they don’t see coming until they are experienced enough to make good decisions.”
And what gives you the right to decide that? Are you their parent? Soldiers sign up to join the military, not a religious cult. If their actions are affecting their job performance, that’s one thing. But if not – then you need to butt out, period. Some gentle advice is fine, but that’s all. If PVT Snuffy has a perfect job performance, while blowing every single cent he makes at the juicy bars in his spare time, then that’s his right. It’s stupid, but it’s still his right to do so.
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12:28 am on September 23rd, 2009 18
@CH
Like I said, it depends on your area. Osan is managed by the AF. Its not even part of EUSA, which is the dominate command on the pen. So I think maybe the Army guys are seeing it from one point (zero tolerance, locking down bars, ect..) but your focused on the AF area.
From poking around I can see that your 100% correct in how the Osan area is operated. But that management isn’t pen wide, nor is it “USFK”, rather its the Osan airbase management that’s the culprit. I would love to know whats on those slides that’s being briefed to the AB Commander, and what he briefs to the USFK Commander.
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6:31 pm on September 23rd, 2009 19
First and foremost, prostitution and human trafficking are totally separate issues but the moralistic Puritans like to use swift boat tactics and merge them together in order to push their own moral agenda.
Human trafficking is a horrendous and despicable crime. We all know what it is since we’ve been beaten over the head by USFK on the issue for years. Nobody who has a shred of decency could ever support such an act.
Prostitution on the other hand is no more than a consensual act between two adults. Both parties participate of their own free will and there is no harm in this as long as the transaction is conducted honestly and with mutual respect. Some think it is immoral to charge for something that apparently is moral to give away for free but that is another issue for another day.
As far as the juicy girls in the ville are concerned, I can promise you that 100% of the girls in these clubs are juicy girls of their own free will. This is based on my own experiences of being in Korea for 20+ years and talking with hundreds of juicy girls. They are there for their own reasons, mainly which is economic but also many are there in the hopes of finding a ticket to the Big PX. One can argue on the sincerity and intentions of these women but that is not the point. The point is that none of these women are being forced into being a sex worker. They know full well what they are getting into and that includes the Filipinas. The only places I’ve seen in Korea where the human trafficking issue could be raised is the Korean Glass Houses which are rightfully off limits and cater to Koreans only anyway.
As for the imported ladies, when I was stationed at Subic Bay in the late ’80’s, the Filipinas knew the scheduled ship movements and when certain ships would be in port even before most of the sailors knew. The coconut telegraph had better Intel than the CIA and NSA. If you put Filipinas in charge of finding Bin Laden, he would have been caught within two weeks after 9/11.
To insinuate that these women don’t know what awaits them in Korea or they are being forced is just plain obtuse. Filipinas have been coming to Korea to work in bars for years now and if anyone thinks word doesn’t get back to the Philippines via the coconut telegraph about what their job is going to be then I have some ocean front condos in Daegu I’d like to sell you.
The idea that these girls are being misled and abused stems from the fact that these girls are trained to play ignorant and act like they didn’t know what their job would be when asked or confronted by foreigners. The Philippines is a very conservative Catholic culture and no self respecting girl can be seen to openly embrace being a prostitute or juicy girl. So they are taught by to play ignorant or be a victim when asked directly about why they are in a juicy bar. I’ve had dozens of Filipina girls tell me this after they got to know me well. One girl who initially told me she was going to be a singer in Korea and was tricked into being a juicy girl later confided to me that actually she knew about the situation long ago and decided to come to Korea after her older sister married an Airman in Osan a year prior. The false stories of being a victim they tell are a face saving mechanism that they use with talents worthy of an Academy Award. I’m not surprised that so many have swallowed these stories hook, line and sinker.
As for underage girls working in the clubs with a cousin’s passport…that is totally ridiculous. They go through so many checks on both the Korean and Philippine side that this is totally impossible. This is another swift boat tactic used by the morality police to push their agenda. Of all the posts I read in this thread, that was by far the stupidest.
The bottom line is these bars serve a purpose even if that purpose makes some do-gooders uncomfortable. You can’t babysit an adult and tell him or her who they can and cannot interact with. Putting these places off limits will just cause young military men to go to places outside of the ville areas where they can’t be controlled or monitored by the MP’s. Look what happened when the Army started putting bars off limits several years ago and instituted a curfew. Soldiers scattered to places far and wide for places to party and meet women. They also would stay out all night long until the curfew was over so they’d drink more in places where there were no MP’s to supervise/assist them if there was trouble. I’ve seen GI’s even in places like Ulsan partying in the merchant marine bars just because of the restrictions the Army has placed on them. Would anyone argue that they are safer in Ulsan than in the Camp Carroll ville? People are going to what they need to when they want some stress relief. Excessive restrictions and rules will only result in them taking excessive actions to avoid them.
The bottom line is the military leadership should realize these bars do serve a purpose and putting them off limits ultimately causes more harm than good. Soldiers are adults and should be entitled to some measure of free will when they are on their own personal time as long as it doesn’t interfere with their job or the mission. You can’t ban a bar to keep a soldier from spending his money there any more than you can ban Ameritrade or Etrade to keep soldiers from losing money in the stock market. Beware the Swift Boat Puritan loonies that will manipulate reality to convince you otherwise.
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9:12 pm on October 25th, 2009 20
I have spent many many years in Korea and things will not change. The night life activity provides too much money for the economy of the locals around the bases. Females providing a service can be looked as good or bad. I have seen men who claimed to have morals secretly go off behind their wife and also some pretty blonde females(GIs) have Korean businessmen send their cars to pick them up at the barracks. Anybody can fall to the temptations for which ever reasons.
Not all foreign women in the US who married a service member worked in a club. The females are just the same as females that are here – some have good morals and some not so good of morals.
A young/old soldier just needs to be careful. This is not limited to men either – some female GIs are morally challenged as well overseas. Some of the females are morally challenged while their husband is away overseas. There was a man in my unit who went home and caught a STD from his wife! This issue is not limited to the young soldiers overseas. You just need to look at our politicians and realize that there is a lot more going on then what is being reported, and it is not limited to service members.
No matter what happens in the clubs – it does not just go on in other countries. This happens in clubs here in the US as well. There is also human trafficking that goes on in the US as well.
When a young man or woman reaches a certain age they can go and serve their country and possibly die. They should be allowed to go to any clubs that they want and make their own decisions – rather it is right or wrong. Where there is a will – there is a way.
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9:58 pm on October 25th, 2009 21
I hear female GIs sell themselves by getting male GIs to take them shopping and pay for everything they want.
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3:18 am on October 26th, 2009 22
These arguments support the adage that there is nothing new under the sun. Check out the films “Sayonara” from 1957 or “The World of Suzie Wong” from 1960. Americans have wrestled with these questions for decades…
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11:30 pm on February 8th, 2010 23
This article was mostly BS and the extreme bad side to the story. I was in korea 2005-2009 Camp Casey a true vet
. I really enjoyed the ville,spended a lot of money my first months hehehe, but I don’t regret it either and would love to go back and drink some beers and talk to some of the girls again, why not?
Its funny how he paints the soldier as a victims, when in reality the girls that work there are the true victims. The girls only make about 600 bucks a month and get 2 days off each month, out the 20 dollars of a drink you pay, the girl gets 2-4 dollars.
Most girls come to the country thinking they are going to play in some band and thats why they all know how to play an instrument or sing. Then once in country, the club owners tell them their real job. Most choose to stay bc their family back in the phillipiness depends on them. So they put up with the assholes, drunks and soldiers with long hands to support their families. Yes there are some shady club owners that force the girls or charge bar fines if you wanna have a little extra fun 150$ normally. But those bars owners are force at the same time by the promoters that rent the girls to them everymonth, and if the club owner don’t pay he could lose the girls. (which will be the end of the club for the owner) Thats why girls in clubs that don’t make many sales in alcohol are at a bigger risk of going into prostitution.
I been many times on leave after hours an is not much different than at GI hours. I think as long they keep the prostitution out the establishments the clubs are ok, monitoring clubs that dont make money and closing them before the owner migth have to make that decision to make his bussines survive could stop most prostitution problems with in the ville.
To be realistic if you got to be back by 1200 or 0300 in the weekend it dosen’t give you many options on going out anywere, specially not being able to drive. If you went ahead and made them off-limits you would just have more uninteded consecuences like more people not coming back to the barracks because they have to go farther to have fun (trains stop running at 1100 cabs always loooking to ripp soldiers out) , lower moral and job performance, problably more rape cases involving korean nationals, more use of the boom boom taxi (massage parlor), more soldiers going to the red ligth tdc market which is 4 blocks down to get korean national whores… they ain’t just gona stay home and use their money more whisely that for damn sure, why? bc thats what Joes do and have always done.
And what about soldiers that marry filipinas for the BAH? They got out of the barracks, extra money an then left their wife and son when their tour was done. There is bad people and good people in both sides. An actually my coworkers that got married to the filipinas are still married. A true miracle when you look at the military stats in marriage.
As a last note a lot of that money goes to families in the filipines that are poor so yeah there is a dark side but there is also a good side like it or not.
p.s sorry for my english is my second language
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