By Now that I’m in Korea, and I don’t have to go through the Korean Consulate in Atlanta —- and as a longshot, followup effort with one of the earlier deadends —- after checking on the current hunts still in play — I decided to try to locate a contact email for someone hopefully a little higher up in the Immigration Department about the F-2 Visa. I found one recommended contact, and he actually replied.
I told him my situation, and I told him the consulate in Atlanta had told me the F-2 was a no-go for me because my wife did not have a job in Korea (since we’ve been living in the US for 10 years). We noted some other aspects, but they always said it was no good.
I’ll post below the reply from a Deputy Director of the Korean Immigration Service (after a fair sized continuation of the post).
The fact my wife will not be in Korea with me is still an issue, but he says (or strongly implies) it might be possible to work that out if I contact an immigration lawyer.
I don’t know how much that could cost, or if it would be cost effective compared to just going the E-2 route, but it is a deadend that is now re-opened, and I am looking for other English-speaking immigration lawyers for potential 2nd and 3rd options to pursue if it is cost effective.
– And this is how I work on things…
From the start, I began these posts to give some view into the TESOLer world and process. It’s been rough at times, but in things like the long, multiple comment exchanges with chickenhead, if someone unfamiliar with the ESL industry in Korea reads them through, then goes looking around at other long-term K-blogs on the TESOL side, they will have a good look at the industry and ways to go about making it work for them – or – deciding it isn’t worth it in the first place – like Brendon Carr – another long-time K-blogger and expat – has long recommended.
– This going back to check on the F-2 one more time after getting the Consulate in Atlanta’s view is an example of how I do things: Keep options open and check more than once, because I’ve found over the years, in some key instances in my life, that the higher up the food chain you go, the more likely you might find someone with better information or a better understanding of the flexibility in the system than what you’ve heard from key people lower down the chain or elsewhere.
— And if this kind of juggling of multiple options is too annoying for someone — or you get too frustrated navigating down blind alleys, hitting speed bumps, working around roadblocks, and coming up on deadends ——- then the person should not jump into the ESL market in Korea.
It is a rough industry — especially in a terrible global economy and a flooded E-2 market. The last big economic crisis in Korea in the late 1990s was brutal. I got to see it firsthand. Korea’s ESL industry has a bad reputation online for a reason.
But, if you have a lot of patience, can stand on two feet, and use your head in working out problems, you can make it worthwhile…
Or, you might get lucky right out of the gate and not understand why so many people have been chewed up by it.
But if you are going into it, you need to keep options open and shrug off setbacks, and if you are in a job and get cheated significantly, stick with plugging along with the local labor boards and other avenues of pressure to do your best to get what is owed to you under the law…
The Immigration Official’s Email
Sorry that I am replying your email only now. I was out of town for about one week
Here is my answer
First of all, Korean Consulate in Atlanta answered you wrongfully that your wife shall have a job in Korea. It is irrelevant whether you and/or your wife have(has) a job in Korea to get a F-2 visa. The F-2 visa( the visa for the spouse of a Korean national) is issued only to the spouse of a Korean national.
Second, in order to be i ssued a F-2 visa, one needs to prove the authenticity and genuineness of his or her marriage to a Korean national. I believe you can provide such documents proving your marriage.
Third, you and your spouse shall reside in Korea. Otherwise the Korean immigration officers will reject your application. Why? Since a visa is to be issued for a foreign person to reside in Korea. This will involve a little complicated legal issues in addition to a good strategy to solve this problem.
I recommend you to contact with a reliable Korean lawyer who is well learned in Korean immigration law with a good command of Enlish and Korean. Since I am working as an in-house counsel within Korean Government, I cannot directly give you the answer to solve this issue. But if you want, I can refer your case to a competent lawyer as follows:
7:17 pm on September 22nd, 2009 1
As the guy said your wife doesn't need a job to procure the F2 for you. My wife didn't at the time of my F2 issuance..so no worries.
What you/she does need is proof that she can provide maintenance for you as a dependent. She will have to have 30,000,000 Won in her account to prove this at the first issuance of the F2.
It might have changed and perhaps that is why the immigration dude didn't mention the money. I don't think you need a lawyer. It's pretty clear cut.
Good luck.
7:42 pm on September 22nd, 2009 2
Still unemployed? I have never ever heard of somebody who was trying to get a job in Korea and has been so unsucessful. That must be the goal of your plan. But I am just tring to figure out why…
UsinKorae, you are good! Damn! I just figured it out. You want to get free room and board at your mum's house. Right, save on rent and bills. Eat free. She can't yell at you to get a job, because she cant speaky Englisy. Smart move!
Will getting an F-2 help avoid doing the background check? Seems like a good plan on your part.
9:44 pm on September 22nd, 2009 3
USinKorea… you are a hard guy to help in any way.
You have lots of preconceived notions and you somehow believe that since "95% of the people" in the ESL industry do it a certain way, that is the way you have to do it, too…
…disregarding that many in that 95% are slugs wandering aimlessly through life, misfits running from something and new fish with no clue.
Here is the deal with F-2 as it applies to you. You can argue, you can debate, you can say, "but… but…"
It doesn't change reality.
Once your wife arrives, go down to the immigration office for the area in which your mother-in-law lives and where, presumably, your wife's official address is.
Shave, cut your hair, wear nice clothes. Have your wife do the same (well, other than shaving, hopefully).
Have all the paperwork ready… including the official forms, marriage documentation, her personal paper from the dong office (forgot what it's called). Have your story straight and your ducks in a row. There might be more (such as the 30 mil won… do some research… have HER do some research on exactly what is needed).
Now… here is the key…
…are you ready?
…wait for it…
…coming soon…
…almost here…
YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT YOUR WIFE IS GOING BACK TO AMERICA AND LEAVING YOU HERE!
See? That was easy.
No lawyers, no hassles for you, no additional paperwork for the overworked office girl who is meeting a handsome boy tonight if she can get off on time, no difficult decisions for the distracted bureaucrat wondering if it was 4 or 6 bottles of soju he drank last night. No annoying phone calls to a manager who has enough experience to understand that saying, "NO!" is lots less hassle than finding the proper paperwork and actually processing it. Blah, blah, blah.
Generally, life is easy when you make other peoples' lives easy. (to a point… sometimes you have to make others' lives difficult… but this is not that time).
Your wife will have to show up with you at the immigration office, same time, next year, to prove you are still married so you can get a new stamp on your ID card and an entry into the computer… but for one year, nobody is going to be doing secret wife inspections… because nobody cares.
…because…
There are many pathetic old farmers coupled with butt-ugly SE Asian girls staring blankly at the tangle of paperwork through eyes damp with frustration… lots of South Asian "trainees" looking like criminals, acting like terrorists and smelling like an industrial humidifier full of room-temperature whale pisss… and ratty English "teachers" that look like this is their first real job since they got out of the homeless shelter.
As long as your wife isn't a zero, you take a shower and you don't look like you just finished shooting up in a dumpster, you should be in front of the Man for less than 3 minutes… as he smiles with relief at how easy you are to process… next!
Now, is this illegal or taking advantage of the system? Maybe… but it is not causing trouble so the spirit of the law is not really violated. What's the difference if she is in America or curled up under a blanket in Korea watching some mindless faux-historical drama on her cellphone DMB?
If anybody sees this differently, I'm all ears.
USinKOrea, you are a bit in over your head in life it seems…
…but you are not a bad guy out to cause trouble, you probably won't pester female students, you are supportive of Korea and you seem to care about your classes… which is more than the majority of the English "teachers" in Korea can say…
…so… a bit of victimless rule bending in this case may actually have a benefit on Korean society.
And, certainly, you being in Korea is MUCH better than all those shifty Nigerians who do God-knows-what to get a visa.
Good luck.
9:52 pm on September 22nd, 2009 4
You really need to talk to someone at the Immigration Minister's main office. Tell them that you came to care for your recently widowed mother-in-law (which you have, right?).
10:21 pm on September 22nd, 2009 5
"USinKOrea, you are a bit in over your head in life it seems… "
That is not true, this is all his plan. You cannot question him, because if you question him in any way, then you must not have read what he wrote or "KNOW" just who he is.
BTW, I am looking forward to your musings on what food you may eat in the morning. Maybe porridge, but maybe not. I hope its porridge, because I love porridge and I hope to read all about what you think about think about porridge Sometimes there is better things to eat, but then they are hard to find, and they may not be there. Also, porridge are great when you eat it right away, but not so good when they you wait a few hours. A lot of people like porridge, so I like it too. There are not too many better things to eat then porridge. Once you run out of milk, then the porridge have no purpose, so you have to time your milk drinking and porridge eating just right.. just right. Not too quickly with the milk, unless you want to buy more. Also sometimes porridge need sugar, or maybe you can buy brown sugar.
Oh the joy it will be to read the daily musings of the trivial events of your life. First the events of the morning, such as how your toenails are doing, and if you managed to dry yourself off properly and maybe a little bit about the holes in your socks. We can go through the events of your morning for hours and hours. I will never get tired of reading the minutiae of your life.
12:58 am on September 23rd, 2009 6
Chickenhead,
First — why don't you just stop reading the posts if you can't handle them? — Oh, I forgot — they make you think of Hendrix and sweet lyrics you write to belittle me and read with glee LordofE2's latest mindless blatherings…
…This is the last time I'll respond to one of these long diatribes from you. As I wrote, they have been somewhat instructive for new people not familiar with the TESOL industry in Korea. They are getting a rounded picture of how to go about things…
But I've had enough of your self-righteous need to demand I do things as you want them done — when you don't even have any experience in the TESOL industry…
This has gotten too old… LordofE2 is just an ass and that is all he tries to be. But you have a head on your shoulders. I don't understand why you can't get it and why you continue to feel the need to jump on me with both feet usually repeating the same ideas that are advice but just throwing in a new ribbing here and there — about me, my wife, my mother-in-law, my dead father-in-law – whatever I guess makes you smile… Even when I'm doing things your way, I'm not doing it fast enough or exactly how you'd do it and that leads to further ribbing…
(I can almost here you typing out something about growing a pair of balls and thicker skin all the way out here in Gangwon Province…)
What I really don't get is — you are a businessman. You've had one or more businesses for some time – so you are successful in your line of work. Do you not plan? Do you not strategize? Do you not explore different avenues? Or do you just pick one way at the start and stick doggedly too it?
If some other businessman came into your establishment every few days after telling you how to run your club — and your marriage at times as well — and then started jabbing you with insults and then brought in a guitar to sing a ditty he wrote about how stupid you are for not doing things the way he told you to do them, what would you say?…(Then add to that — knowledge that the guy has never owned or operated a business before…)
That is what has gotten old…
And that is it in a nutshell, isn't it? As I say, self-righteous diatribes against someone in an industry you've never worked in…
As I noted before, the majority of the foundation of your repeated bombardments of anything I write on this topic, or even in other threads not under my posts, has been the idea —- that your advice on how to do things is the ONLY non-loser way to go about getting a job in an industry you've never tried to get a job in —- and that your advice is so universally and clearly understood as a "no brainer" — that you have license to beat the hell out of me time and time again. (I know — thick skin — thick skin —– you're security blanket for letting you say whatever you want about whoever your want – regardless of how tasteless and crass.)
Now, after finally getting you to admit that the vast majority of jobs are gotten in ways similar to mine and a small percentage get it your way — your retort is ——- they are all a bunch of pissant losers you've like to have the opportunity to piss on too… (thick skin)
We certainly can't all be you…
And since we can't, I guess that is why your ego won't allow you to offer advice without belittling the person, right?
On the F-2 visa, it is my understanding, after the paperwork is handed in, they take it to review and then later schedule an interview with you – and sometimes they say your wife has to be there as well.
— If they give you the F-2 visa 10 minutes after you've handed in the paperwork — or within a couple of days —- then my thinking on that is wrong and will greatly alter what I have to say on your advice on the F-2 — but until I hear differently from someone whose primary purpose isn't to whack me around with his "advice" — I'll go with what I say below:
What I wrote above is what I've heard over at Dave's – a TESOL place – which you avoid, because you aren't in the industry, and all those people over there aren't chickenhead…
So, after lying to immigration when I hand the paperwork in, when they call me for the interview a few weeks later after my wife has long left for the US, and they ask for her to come with me, I guess, what?
Maybe if you'd spend less time typing out diatribes when you give people advice, you'd end up just giving advice, and maybe think it through just a little more.
I can respect the advice, but the need to show most of the rest of the world that they suck because they aren't you — has gotten old…
…..what's the point?…..speaking to the general audience…..When you are dealing with someone who begins their view from this point when they start with you — and easily dismisses 95% of a large chunk of all Western expats in Korea in the same manner —- there is no point going on with them….
And after the last exchange, I have to wonder how much of this intolerance for whatever I have to say on posts he says he hates to read — stems from a go around I think we had a few years ago where I admittedly got carried away in a discussion in a thread I shouldn't have gotten into in the first place or limited what I had to say to the initial item that made me interested in the discussion…
1:00 am on September 23rd, 2009 7
That's exactly what I did…
That was the heart of the post.
I contacted the Deputy Director and he told me what I'd been told in Atlanta by the Consulate was wrong and based on the long explanation I sent, he told me the issue that would cause problems was that my wife would be in the US for the first year, but he fairly strongly implied that that issue could be worked around given the specifics of why I'm back in Korea if I'd contact a knowledgable immigration lawyer and recommended one. — He basically said in the end he couldn't go further on how to legally handle the primary issue because it conflicted with his position as a government lawyer but another lawyer could well enough…
2:07 am on September 23rd, 2009 8
I certainly hope you're able to get things sorted out to your advantage.
2:21 am on September 23rd, 2009 9
I'm sorry USinKorea…
I'll quit ribbing you. You are right. I'm just getting some satisfaction watching you squirm around in a cold dish of revenge for the unjustified sniping I received from you in the past.
Childish? Sure. Satisfying? Of course. Over? Yeah.
There are certainly many ways to find a job. You will find one.
May things work out for you… and I mean that.
2:31 am on September 23rd, 2009 10
I can accept that.
Like I wrote in the other post, that exchange from back then was one of the handful of times over the past 7 years of being around the K-blogs where I've made an ass of myself and would do it differently if we had a repeat…
And since I also advocate firing back – within reason – when people attack you unreasonably – I can accept your need for revenge.
It's kind of a long time to wait around for it, and taken to an unreasonable degree, but — I do believe – again – that someone fresh to Korea or thinking about taking the TESOL plunge — who manages to wade through all the comments and posts — will get a well-rounded view of different means to go about it through the exchange.
Or in other words not yet used — even though you were jerking my chain —– you were doing so in extended comments that also focused on the topic at hand —- and thus added real value to the discussion — since your actual advice is a way to go.
(Since the need was revenge, though, in closing, I'd rethink my ideas of how thick my skin is if I were you.
)
2:49 am on September 23rd, 2009 11
One last thing…
I should let it go… but I just can't quite do it…
"when you don’t even have any experience in the TESOL industry… "
For several years I have hosted a private party once a month for several top hagwon owners… and I have a really, really, really good idea about how the business is run, many of the "tricks" involved, the frustrations of hiring and dealing with foreigners, idiot students, idiot teachers, etc.
Apart from liking these guys, I study this just in case I want to open a hagwon someday… as all these guys make at least a 100 million a year off a 300 million-ish investment… without much work… boring as all hell, I think… but not a bad gig… especially if my wife is doing the management.
It is very much something to consider.
This is probably the main reason I generally side with management whenever the ESL topic comes up.
4:58 am on September 23rd, 2009 12
UsinKorea, I will use my vast connections to get you a job, if you agree. I can understand if your pride will stop you from putting your hat in front of me, but I see it. I will help you.
10:33 am on September 23rd, 2009 13
US in Korea..
once you have applied for your F-2 it will take three weeks to a little over a month in some cases to have your visa issued to you..
11:45 am on September 23rd, 2009 14
Your siding with the owners because they make much money and know "tricks" to do it is interesting.
I can't speak for recent history, but ten years ago, back when the Korean economy was in trouble again, many hakwons went bust and many were making nothing or taking a loss – and it seemed that most were not managed by business people and had people who didn't know how to handle the fierce competition or plan ahead for slow times. Most seem to have opened with a lot of loans whose interst took much of the incoming tuition.
I know my hakwon in Wonju was said to be one of only 3 or 4 making money in 1997, and I had seen the books as I helped the secretary figure them, and the owner was taking home $300 a month after expenses.
It seemed many places were opened by people with no business experience or were run by the wive's of business people who had used savings to open a place to get rich quick and lost money because the wife didn't know what she was doing.
But that was ten years ago…
1:52 pm on September 23rd, 2009 15
"Your siding with the owners because they make much money and know “tricks” to do it is interesting."
Not really. First, by "tricks", I don't mean how to screw people over. I don't do things that way… and I keep people that do at arm's length.
I mean how to market efficiently, how to arrange government subsidies for certain classes of students, how to recruit teachers (or how not to), how to negotiate leases, how to hire and manage office staff, how to negotiate with corporate classes, how to deal with Immigration and Education departments, how to encourage 1-on-1s for wealthy students… things that many can do… but with advice and mentoring, many can do well and efficiently… which is the difference between making a living and making a life in the hagwon business.
Success in anything comes easier if a foundation of knowledge and social relationships is built over the course of years. I do this in several fields because, someday, it will be time to do something different and it is much easier to slide into whatever is best at the time than have to worry about starting from scratch then.
As for siding with them due to income… that isn't a specific reason. Sure, if all things are equal, rich/educated/successful friends are better than poor losers… not too many people funk their way to the bottom, so to speak.
I have mediated a number of disagreements between teachers and hagwons… and, I must say, the teachers are never less than 50% at fault… usually due to oversensitivity… frequently due to misunderstanding, miscommunication or just plain ignorance…
…but a large number of them don't dress professionally, most are running from something and a surprisingly large number are reused-clothing-based stinkers… even though many have a washer/dryer combo in the apartments they are given.
I can go on and on and on about this… but do understand I am not talking out my arse about the ESL industry.
7:31 am on September 26th, 2009 16
You really do like porridge!
6:47 am on September 30th, 2009 17
I am a U.S. citizen. My wife is korean but naturalized U.S. citizen about 20 years ago. We would like to live an work in Korea. Can I get an f-2 visa (perhaps if she obtains an f-4)? If so, does the f-2 visa require a background check for teaching private?
Thanks…