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	<title>Comments on: Itaewon King Club Brawl Trial Ends with Mistrial</title>
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	<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/</link>
	<description>Korea From North to South</description>
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		<title>By: Soldier of Fortune</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-372601</link>
		<dc:creator>Soldier of Fortune</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-372601</guid>
		<description>JoeC.  I could not disagree with your comments about civilian counsel more.  If you look at the history of the &quot;King&#039;s Club incident&quot; the main suspect that was charged with the stabbing (attempted murder) was found Not Guilty of all charges.  Guess what, his attorneys were both military lawyers from Korea. In my book, attempted murder is a &quot;serious crime.&quot;  If he had taken your advice, he might be 25k poorer, convicted of attempted murder and spending the next twenty years in jail.  His military attorney obviously knew what he was doing and did one hell of a job for him - he was found not guilty of everything.

As for the military attorney in the mistrial, he also obviously did an outstanding job as well, winning the motion for a mistrial.  You see a pattern here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JoeC.  I could not disagree with your comments about civilian counsel more.  If you look at the history of the &#8220;King&#8217;s Club incident&#8221; the main suspect that was charged with the stabbing (attempted murder) was found Not Guilty of all charges.  Guess what, his attorneys were both military lawyers from Korea. In my book, attempted murder is a &#8220;serious crime.&#8221;  If he had taken your advice, he might be 25k poorer, convicted of attempted murder and spending the next twenty years in jail.  His military attorney obviously knew what he was doing and did one hell of a job for him &#8211; he was found not guilty of everything.</p>
<p>As for the military attorney in the mistrial, he also obviously did an outstanding job as well, winning the motion for a mistrial.  You see a pattern here?</p>
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		<title>By: Wallstreet</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-369039</link>
		<dc:creator>Wallstreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-369039</guid>
		<description>Yes I know. One typo makes the whole comment look like a disaster.  How uneducated and ignorant of me to type so fast I miss a letter. Sorry for the inconvenience, Lemmy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I know. One typo makes the whole comment look like a disaster.  How uneducated and ignorant of me to type so fast I miss a letter. Sorry for the inconvenience, Lemmy.</p>
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		<title>By: Lemmy</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-369024</link>
		<dc:creator>Lemmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-369024</guid>
		<description>It is physically difficult to read your writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is physically difficult to read your writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Wallstreet</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-369021</link>
		<dc:creator>Wallstreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-369021</guid>
		<description>Blackmarketing??? Really? That&#039;s not even CID&#039;s jo.  Things like that are worked by the Military Police Investigations (MPI).  
As far as what did the defense attorneys do wrong, Michael? Absolutely nothing. They did a great job.  They knew all along of the statements made to the MP&#039;s. They also knew that the prosecution had no idea. It was a  perfect setup to get a mistrial. There were so many people involved in this case, all with different prosecutors and defense attorneys. What one lawyer may need to prove or disprove his case, is not the same simply because they were involved in the same incident.  The lawyers review all the information collected by CID and determine what THEY need.  The decision of what documents goes to court is not up to any law enforcement agent.  If the prosecution failed to emit certain documents into court, than that&#039;s on them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blackmarketing??? Really? That&#8217;s not even CID&#8217;s jo.  Things like that are worked by the Military Police Investigations (MPI).<br />
As far as what did the defense attorneys do wrong, Michael? Absolutely nothing. They did a great job.  They knew all along of the statements made to the MP&#8217;s. They also knew that the prosecution had no idea. It was a  perfect setup to get a mistrial. There were so many people involved in this case, all with different prosecutors and defense attorneys. What one lawyer may need to prove or disprove his case, is not the same simply because they were involved in the same incident.  The lawyers review all the information collected by CID and determine what THEY need.  The decision of what documents goes to court is not up to any law enforcement agent.  If the prosecution failed to emit certain documents into court, than that&#8217;s on them.</p>
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		<title>By: JoeC</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368596</link>
		<dc:creator>JoeC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 02:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368596</guid>
		<description>I attempted to qualify my comments. I didn&#039;t say &quot;everyone get a civilian attorney.&quot; I said, &quot;anyone up on serious charges in the military get a civilian attorney.&quot; I also said &quot;[MANY] of the people working in the military justice system are not exactly what you would call professional.&quot; AmericaninSeoul says, &quot;SOME do not care, ... SOME CID agents who are truly incompetent.&quot;

I admit my views may be skewed as someone from the outside looking in. The nature of public reporting is we tend to more often learn about the aberrations than the norms. I can believe that majority of military justice cases are handled professionally and successfully. But, from direct and indirect observations, I also believe there are a number of bad actors and shenanigans in the system.

I also admit that some of my insider information may also be skewed because most of it comes from defense attorneys or from defendants in the system. The reason I say get a civilian attorney when in serious trouble is because I&#039;ve heard that said as an unofficial recommendation from actual military defense attorneys.

Consider that both the military judges and prosecutors belong to the JAG commands and defense council belong to a separate command. I understand the purpose is to prevent the appearance of influence that may occur if they were in the same commands, but some defense councils believe they are the outsider stepchildren of the justice system compared to the more recognized and influential JAG. Because of this, as far as career progression, more UCMJ experienced lawyers prefer to gravitate to prosecution than stay in the defense field.

Experience is another issue. Lawyers aren&#039;t all trained equally and there are many fields of practice in law. You wouldn&#039;t hire an attorney with 5 years of family practice and 1 year of criminal law cases to defend to you on murder charges? That could be the case in the military. You don&#039;t have much say in choosing your military lawyer. It&#039;s kind of like getting a public defender.

Most civilian lawyers that defend military people were former military lawyers. They not only understand the system, they can anticipate many of the prosecution&#039;s maneuvers. They can also do things military defense lawyers cannot do to help their clients, such as speaking out publicly and drawing unwelcome attention to the military.

As far as the investigation and prosecution side, I&#039;ve heard of several high profile cases brought to trial over the years that fall apart embarrassingly in court. Or the cases that get a lot of attention only to be dropped of dismissed at the last minute without any explanation. 

Not wanting to disclose national security secrets, or not wanting to implicate a senior official or the service itself? Tell me there is no command influence. Tell me there is not a separate system of justice for O-6s and above than for those down below.

I suspect that when the history of GITMO is written, it will be another serious stain on the practices of SOME in the military legal system. Though some heroes on both the defense and prosecution sides have already come out and revealed some of it.

I know. They were all just terrorists anyway. &quot;The worst of the worst.&quot; They don&#039;t deserve due process. Disregarding the fact that over two thirds had been released with no charges ever filed. You might say that&#039;s a whole separate issue. Well maybe. But we learned there were multiple instances of the prosecution withholding evidence and documents from the defense. Sounds familiar? Maybe even just the tip of the iceberg. And remember, many of those people who learned tricks at GITMO are probably back with their services serving justice to military people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I attempted to qualify my comments. I didn&#8217;t say &#8220;everyone get a civilian attorney.&#8221; I said, &#8220;anyone up on serious charges in the military get a civilian attorney.&#8221; I also said &#8220;[MANY] of the people working in the military justice system are not exactly what you would call professional.&#8221; AmericaninSeoul says, &#8220;SOME do not care, &#8230; SOME CID agents who are truly incompetent.&#8221;</p>
<p>I admit my views may be skewed as someone from the outside looking in. The nature of public reporting is we tend to more often learn about the aberrations than the norms. I can believe that majority of military justice cases are handled professionally and successfully. But, from direct and indirect observations, I also believe there are a number of bad actors and shenanigans in the system.</p>
<p>I also admit that some of my insider information may also be skewed because most of it comes from defense attorneys or from defendants in the system. The reason I say get a civilian attorney when in serious trouble is because I&#8217;ve heard that said as an unofficial recommendation from actual military defense attorneys.</p>
<p>Consider that both the military judges and prosecutors belong to the JAG commands and defense council belong to a separate command. I understand the purpose is to prevent the appearance of influence that may occur if they were in the same commands, but some defense councils believe they are the outsider stepchildren of the justice system compared to the more recognized and influential JAG. Because of this, as far as career progression, more UCMJ experienced lawyers prefer to gravitate to prosecution than stay in the defense field.</p>
<p>Experience is another issue. Lawyers aren&#8217;t all trained equally and there are many fields of practice in law. You wouldn&#8217;t hire an attorney with 5 years of family practice and 1 year of criminal law cases to defend to you on murder charges? That could be the case in the military. You don&#8217;t have much say in choosing your military lawyer. It&#8217;s kind of like getting a public defender.</p>
<p>Most civilian lawyers that defend military people were former military lawyers. They not only understand the system, they can anticipate many of the prosecution&#8217;s maneuvers. They can also do things military defense lawyers cannot do to help their clients, such as speaking out publicly and drawing unwelcome attention to the military.</p>
<p>As far as the investigation and prosecution side, I&#8217;ve heard of several high profile cases brought to trial over the years that fall apart embarrassingly in court. Or the cases that get a lot of attention only to be dropped of dismissed at the last minute without any explanation. </p>
<p>Not wanting to disclose national security secrets, or not wanting to implicate a senior official or the service itself? Tell me there is no command influence. Tell me there is not a separate system of justice for O-6s and above than for those down below.</p>
<p>I suspect that when the history of GITMO is written, it will be another serious stain on the practices of SOME in the military legal system. Though some heroes on both the defense and prosecution sides have already come out and revealed some of it.</p>
<p>I know. They were all just terrorists anyway. &#8220;The worst of the worst.&#8221; They don&#8217;t deserve due process. Disregarding the fact that over two thirds had been released with no charges ever filed. You might say that&#8217;s a whole separate issue. Well maybe. But we learned there were multiple instances of the prosecution withholding evidence and documents from the defense. Sounds familiar? Maybe even just the tip of the iceberg. And remember, many of those people who learned tricks at GITMO are probably back with their services serving justice to military people.</p>
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		<title>By: GOTRBACK</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368575</link>
		<dc:creator>GOTRBACK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368575</guid>
		<description>Way to go Michael!  Thats telling him or her. Take that JoeC.  Military attorneys rock and the JAG office on the rock rocks too.
Completelee professionel is what I&#039;d be talking bout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way to go Michael!  Thats telling him or her. Take that JoeC.  Military attorneys rock and the JAG office on the rock rocks too.<br />
Completelee professionel is what I&#8217;d be talking bout.</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368566</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368566</guid>
		<description>I worked with the military justice system in USFK for 18 months.  The JAG office there was completely professional, and JoeC, your comment is way off base.  If CID needs a refresher course in what they need to disclose, thats on them.  I think everyone can benefit from having a L&amp;O marathon.  I think you need to get some common sense.

Why on earth should everyone get a civilian attorney?  What did the defense counsel do wrong here?  Do you have a clue what you are writing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worked with the military justice system in USFK for 18 months.  The JAG office there was completely professional, and JoeC, your comment is way off base.  If CID needs a refresher course in what they need to disclose, thats on them.  I think everyone can benefit from having a L&amp;O marathon.  I think you need to get some common sense.</p>
<p>Why on earth should everyone get a civilian attorney?  What did the defense counsel do wrong here?  Do you have a clue what you are writing?</p>
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		<title>By: AmericaninSeoul</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368538</link>
		<dc:creator>AmericaninSeoul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368538</guid>
		<description>I would disagree about the folks working in MJ not being professional. I would say that SOME do not care, BUT there are SOME CID agents who are truly incompetent. I don&#039;t think this is the case...

I wouldn&#039;t doubt that in the mad fury to get this case to trial that the prosecution &quot;overlooked&quot; the statements. I am sure they were under a lot of pressure to get things rolling and that doesn&#039;t mean they are unprofessional, just rushed. 

I mean if you know anything about the normal MJ system things do NOT go to trial this quickly!! This was a super high profile case that only just happened in, what, Feb? There have already been trial&#039;s and convictions? Not unheard of, but super-duper rare. Usually, both the prosecution and the defense take their time to get their ducks in a row. I&#039;ve seen cases go to trial up to 2-3 years AFTER the crime!! I know we have a right to a speedy trial, but, geez, in this case it was just sloppy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would disagree about the folks working in MJ not being professional. I would say that SOME do not care, BUT there are SOME CID agents who are truly incompetent. I don&#8217;t think this is the case&#8230;</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t doubt that in the mad fury to get this case to trial that the prosecution &#8220;overlooked&#8221; the statements. I am sure they were under a lot of pressure to get things rolling and that doesn&#8217;t mean they are unprofessional, just rushed. </p>
<p>I mean if you know anything about the normal MJ system things do NOT go to trial this quickly!! This was a super high profile case that only just happened in, what, Feb? There have already been trial&#8217;s and convictions? Not unheard of, but super-duper rare. Usually, both the prosecution and the defense take their time to get their ducks in a row. I&#8217;ve seen cases go to trial up to 2-3 years AFTER the crime!! I know we have a right to a speedy trial, but, geez, in this case it was just sloppy.</p>
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		<title>By: gotrback</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368508</link>
		<dc:creator>gotrback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 09:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368508</guid>
		<description>Before I gratuated law school I couldn&#039;t even spell attorney, now I are one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before I gratuated law school I couldn&#8217;t even spell attorney, now I are one.</p>
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		<title>By: JoeC</title>
		<link>http://rokdrop.com/2009/10/09/itaewon-king-club-brawl-trial-ends-with-mistrial/comment-page-1/#comment-368479</link>
		<dc:creator>JoeC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 03:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rokdrop.com/?p=17002#comment-368479</guid>
		<description>Now you know why it&#039;s recommended that anyone up on serious charges in the military get a civilian attorney.

Now you know why almost no one held at GITMO had been successfully prosecuted.

Many of the people working in the military justice system are not exactly what you would call professional. 

Recommendation to General Sharp: 

Require all members of Yongsan area JAG and CID staffs to 5 consecutive weekends of 8 hours marathon viewing of the last 4 seasons of the Law and Order television series. 

Purpose: 

Refresher for relearning the basics of criminal case manager procedure.

There would be a pass or fail test on the 6th week, so pay attention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now you know why it&#8217;s recommended that anyone up on serious charges in the military get a civilian attorney.</p>
<p>Now you know why almost no one held at GITMO had been successfully prosecuted.</p>
<p>Many of the people working in the military justice system are not exactly what you would call professional. </p>
<p>Recommendation to General Sharp: </p>
<p>Require all members of Yongsan area JAG and CID staffs to 5 consecutive weekends of 8 hours marathon viewing of the last 4 seasons of the Law and Order television series. </p>
<p>Purpose: </p>
<p>Refresher for relearning the basics of criminal case manager procedure.</p>
<p>There would be a pass or fail test on the 6th week, so pay attention.</p>
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