It is nice to see (for a change) some thought put into an argument which is presented in a logical and reasonable fashion.

"I stand by firmly that you are in fact making comparisons"

I guess you are right. It is a comparison in the sense that I pointed out things (for whatever reason) that Korea is doing better than America… even though America COULD do it better if it was made into a priority. It was not intended as a detail-by-detail comparison… but I see your point.

"Perhaps it should be “a society of members guilted and shamed into making personal sacrifices for the benefit of others and accepting their status in society, as unhappiness is something to be born in their culture as the general state of life, i.e. han."

Hmmm… you are right about guilt and shame. They are big motivators in keeping members of society in line. Crappy, perhaps… but better than the guiltless/shameless cultures that one can easily find in areas of high crime, violence and misery throughout the world.

Also, these days in Korea, it seems one can change their status to a large extent through education. Of course, better education is available to those with money and family connections… but that is pretty universal in every country, every culture. I know a lot of Koreans with good jobs who had/have a farmer for a father.

As for that deep Korean unhappiness that whitey "will never understand"… yes. I find it irritatingly used as an excuse/crutch for poor or sulky behavior… or PMS.

In the end, I do believe, for reasons pure/selfish/imposed upon, Koreans have more loyalty to the success of the concept of "Korea" than Americans do to the concept of "America". The result of this is the nation you see today that came from the nation of 50 years ago. The concept of America is being intentionally diluted.

"For the America commentary, I agree that parties are played off each other, but disagree that patriotism is demonized. Rather the very things that defined a patriot (speaking out against things that you believe are wrong even if it goes against the powerful for the sake of bettering your country) are now being demonized as certain groups are attempting to redefine the word to their own purposes."

Hmmm… I think we are agreeing here. True patriotism is battered from all sides these days. If you don't agree with what Big Mama Government says and does, the left says you are a wingnut, the right says you are terroristic.

Passive patriotism, such as wearing a ribbon, is encouraged to replace active patriotism such as taking to the streets when the government starts spending money it doesn't have for things it doesn't need to enforce rules that don't work to help people that hurt the nation.

"For the Korean commentary, it should really mention that it doesn’t have a sense of nationalism, but a false sense of nationalism"

What's the difference? Americans believe all sorts of things that aren't exactly true (list available on request) but that is important to building national pride and unification of culture and purpose. It is not so much a "false sense of nationalism" in Korea (it is very real) but nationalism built under false pretenses… but that is frequently the nature of nationalism… and it has no effect on the truth that Koreans care about their unified national identity more than Americans which are being actively encouraged to categorize themselves (into smaller, politically dividable/conquerable groups, perhaps).

"And I disagree that Korea doesn’t glamorize “thug culture” "

I got a lot of flack for this. I could well be wrong… but here is my feeling. Thug culture in Korea is considered entertaining and amusing… but it is not something the average Korean admires to the point of emulation. You don't see the number of wannabe gangsters strutting around Korea fighting, tagging and talking some pimpin' smack like you see in the States.

"But perhaps you would have had me with you if you hadn’t gotten completely off-topic and ruined your arguments with the last silly point, which showed you to have been creating an elaborate cover to vent your frustration and scape goat it all on the back of someone not responsible for any of it."

You are absolutely right. The list was just sounding too serious so I threw in Japanese bows, short-skirted schoolgirls and suicidal presidents. I should have made a separate list so as not to detract from the more valid points.

"In summary, you seem to really look down on poor Americans"

Absolutely. While bad things happen to good people, the chronically poor pretty much bring it on themselves in the United States. A poor man has poor ways… and he won't let them go… and he is frequently proud of them.

America allows more class mobility than any other country in the world. Further, if one ignores pop culture, there is an underlying theme built into American society to get educated and work hard… and the opportunity exists to the point of being shoved in your face.

That it isn't done with the enthusiasm as in Korea is likely due to other social and cultural distractions… off the top of my head, the culture of Everyone is Special and a Winner and No Matter What They Do, It is Not Wrong, It is Just Different is a big hindrance to success. We aren't all going to be rock stars and millionaires… but the last few generations have grown up being told that… while the hard work it takes to get it done has been downplayed.

You see it in the military… as someone pointed out here. In the military, there is every chance to get educated and throw away the ghetto/trailer park culture… but so many cling to it… and, after getting out, wind up back where they started… poor, ignorant and proud. Politically correct leadership enables this.

So, I don't think much of poor Americans… and that goes double after seeing TRULY poor people throughout the world… who, despite being poor and truly trapped there, don't live and act like animals as so many poor Americans do.

Before the usual gang of scolds get 'hold of this, let me, once again, qualify this with the idea that not ALL poor people bring it on themselves… but the majority do.

This is a huge topic with many side issues… I have done a poor job laying this out here and we should discuss this more another time.

"I don’t trust any country whose favorite American celebrity is Paris Hilton"

I'm in absolute agreement.

"and don’t enjoy another man calling me “buttercup.”"

Sorry. It won't happen again, sweetpea.

"Sooo….your opinions don’t make fact."

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you're criticizing the man's opinions as not factual?

What exactly do you mean?

"A society where all members, regardless of class or regional affiliation, hope for the success of their country and are willing to make personal sacrifices if necessary"

Perhaps it should be "a society of members guilted and shamed into making personal sacrifices for the benefit of others and accepting their status in society, as unhappiness is something to be born in their culture as the general state of life, i.e. han.

"A government that encourages national unity rather than one which demonizes patriotism, discourages unifying nationalism and attempts to divide the population so as to play groups off against each other for short-term political gain."

For the America commentary, I agree that parties are played off each other, but disagree that patriotism is demonized. Rather the very things that defined a patriot (speaking out against things that you believe are wrong even if it goes against the powerful for the sake of bettering your country) are now being demonized as certain groups are attempting to redefine the word to their own purposes.

For the Korean commentary, it should really mention that it doesn't have a sense of nationalism, but a false sense of nationalism, as Korean children are 1) taught that Korea/Koreans invented thousands of things that they definitely did not; 2) that everything Korean is better than another country's version, as a fact, i.e. Korean apples are better than American apples. Both of these cultural methods of building nationalism, only build it artificially, and this is dangerous. And it should be mentioned that for a country apparently so proud of being Korean, the minute people have money, they spend it on foreign luxury goods (to show their status, the same reason as "thug" culture does) and plastic surgery. If you live there, then you would know how hard it is to find a middle/upper class girl who hasn't had eye lid surgery to look more western.

I don't disagree with some of your criticisms of America, although I think that many of your points refer to a very small subset of society, which doesn't at all generally reflect America. For example, the majority of America doesn't glamorize ghetto/thug culture, a small subset does. But those that do are either coming from those places and seeing anyone rise above it, logically imbues a sense of pride or so far removed from any sense of danger or challenge in their comfy lives that they like the fantasy. Yes, it's not good, but neither is all the born-rich, worthless kids who never do anything of value (The Hills), who get way more publicity and are far more imitated in society. At least the thug glamorizers are creating music.

And I disagree that Korea doesn't glamorize "thug culture" as they are completely enamored of our most thug-like celebrities (hello, horrible, imitation thug Korean hip-hop). Also, there is a Korean thug culture, it's just mafia culture, and it's so mainstreamed in government and business that it's hard to notice it as idolized.

As for your praise of Korea, there of course are things that they do right. Hell yes they have better airports and better airline staff. America has some of the worst airlines, period. Korean airline stewardesses are a revelation. But, being an airline stewardess is a competitive, good job for a woman in Korea because you have to be educated (multi-lingual) and beautiful (which is everything in Korean society). Same with airport staff, as they have to be multi-lingual/educated as well. Unfortunately these jobs aren't great jobs for people in America, like it was in the '70's, as they don't pay well and garner no respect in society, so you're not going to have high competition for it and won't have people as jazzed about doing it.

But perhaps you would have had me with you if you hadn't gotten completely off-topic and ruined your arguments with the last silly point, which showed you to have been creating an elaborate cover to vent your frustration and scape goat it all on the back of someone not responsible for any of it. Not a single point you made had any relevance to our current president, but could in fact all have been criticisms made last year, 2 years ago, 10 years ago. Obama has been president less than a year and inherited our country in a shit state rarely achieved in our history. I'm actually not on board with him yet, but in fact our senate, house and all the horrible lobbyists have more power than him, so I'm at least going to give him a full year in office before I give him credit or blame him for anything, and I might give credit or blame the more accurate people then anyways.

In summary, you seem to really look down on poor Americans, which leads me to think that you've never talked to many poor people or spent much time in a poor community. In my experiences, working with "ghetto" kids in many big U.S. cities and talking to farmers in the most rural parts of Nebrasksa (No, I'm not a f*ing missionary or teacher, I just like to volunteer in my spare time), I am always reminded that assumptions are rarely helpful and that people are unique and always somewhat unknowable. Perhaps you should consider interacting on a personal level with the people and communities that think need to change, as you may come up with some new solutions to existing problems rather than being bitter. .

Also, I don't trust any country whose favorite American celebrity is Paris Hilton and don't enjoy another man calling me "buttercup." It's a perfectly fine scene, it's just not mine.

Oh dear… that was hateful.

You might be right, though. Let's look.

"I’ll make a good case that none of your points are valid, as you can’t compare a nearly homogenous (religion and race) country, the size of Illinois, with the U.S. Any comparisons you make would have to account for these vast differences, which you don’t."

There was no comparison. There was simply a quick list of things I feel are better in Korea than America.

Many of these problems can be traced back to the "diversity" of special interest groups looking for immediate gain rather than a unified population willing to make small short-term sacrifices for the benefit of the nation and eventual long-term personal gains.

Homogeneous religion or race should have no effect on such things as rude airport staff, idolization of asinine entertainers, the safety of ATM workers or the need to burn and loot when your team loses… or wins… or draws. These, and most others on the list, reflect poor subset of American culture that, instead of being publicly condemned, has been tolerated… or in some cases, championed in the name of diversity.

…but I'll hold further comment until after you "make a good case that none of your points are valid".

"It’s an irrelevant list, which any economist, statistician, etc. could easily tell you."

Fire away. Kushibo did a very nice job of clearly and logically agreeing and disagreeing with specific aspects of the list point-by-point. Feel free to do the same. The worst that can happen is I can/will stomp on you if I think you are stupidly wrong.

"But, if we want to compare quality of living, let’s compare available statistics for Illinois and S. Korea."

Buttercup, there was no comparison in my list. There are all sorts of things in which America excels over Korea… but this list is of what Korea does better than America.

But we can compare if that's what you really, really, really want.

"They have the same violent crime rate and S. Korea actually has a higher percentage of people living below its poverty line, and all of these rates are higher than the U.S. national average."

Riiiight… Illinois has the same violent crime rate as Korea? A quick check of the Internet indicates that Chicago (510) had about half as many murders as Korea (955) did last year… that would be Chicago, population 3 million… Korea, 48 million. Other crimes match the same pattern.

As for living standard, we can make some observations.

The poorest of the poor in Korea don't have yards full of rusty appliances and piles of trash with a pack of mangy dogs running in and out of the sagging trailer while 6 kids run around with snotty noses and no pants.

That vision repeats from the hills of Kentucky to the Indian reservations of the Southwest.

I have never seen that in Korea. I have seen square miles of it in the USA.

It is not about poverty level statistics… it is about poor aspects of a failed culture and a system that reinforces these behaviors instead of letting them die a natural death.

Go to welfare housing and look at the filthy way the people live… despite statistically having more money than Koreans.

"And this is using available statistics for Korea, which we know are not accurate, since Korea purposely hides and distorts it’s national figures to give Korea “face.”"

That could be. On the other hand, having lived both places, I have formed a pretty strong opinion about which country has less crime and which country has fewer people living, intentionally or otherwise, like animals.

"Sooo….your opinions don’t make fact."

Probably not… but my pocket in Korea always has a couple hundred in cash rather than a pistol as in the States… so it's fact enough for me.

"My thoughts are that you’re not Korean, but rather a bitter ex-pat who grew up in the suburbs, and went to Korea to teach English?"

Not bitter… irritated. I see America socially and financially spiraling down needlessly because everybody is too worried about the wrong things and too proud to address real problems… or even admit they exist.

To add to this, I see Korea, despite unlimited Korean pride, identifying and rapidly improving many of its national faults.

"Let me know how close I am, because I’m confused on how the education system failed you enough to not know how to do a proper competitive analysis."

A "proper competitive analysis" was not necessary. Are you sure you chose your words correctly? Korea is not a competitor in relation to this list.

"Ha! Our airport staff is ruder and more petty than yours!" "You Korean pusssies don't know how to murder crack dealers for their stash like we do!" "Yee-hee! We win!"

If you disagree with any points on the list and feel that America is doing it correctly and Korea's method is wrong, speak up.

You wrote:

'you can’t compare a nearly homogenous (religion and race) country, the size of Illinois, with the U.S. Any comparisons you make would have to account for these vast differences, which you don’t.'

But then you also wrote:

'let’s compare available statistics for Illinois and S. Korea.'

So you can't compare the United States to Korea, but you can compare Korea to Illinois based on nothing but geographical size? What about population density?

Illinois 12,901,563 http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/17000.htm…

South Korea 48,606,787
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2800.htm

I'm sure that affects crime. Heck I think country of more then 48 million would most certainly have more problems then a single state in union of fifty that you happen pick out on a whim. Iceland with their 800,000 people actually blows away both South Korean and Illinois when it comes to standard of living or crime level. But you wouldn't want to trade places with them right now. Can you guess why? Instead of lashing out at someone elses educational background, perhaps you should put your pokeman cards away and work on thinking before you type.

Koreans don't like it when their shit gets thrown back at them do they. Tom proves it.

Don't like, too bad.

I'll make a good case that none of your points are valid, as you can't compare a nearly homogenous (religion and race) country, the size of Illinois, with the U.S. Any comparisons you make would have to account for these vast differences, which you don't. It's an irrelevant list, which any economist, statistician, etc. could easily tell you.

But, if we want to compare quality of living, let's compare available statistics for Illinois and S. Korea. They have the same violent crime rate and S. Korea actually has a higher percentage of people living below its poverty line, and all of these rates are higher than the U.S. national average. And this is using available statistics for Korea, which we know are not accurate, since Korea purposely hides and distorts it's national figures to give Korea "face." Sooo….your opinions don't make fact.

My thoughts are that you're not Korean, but rather a bitter ex-pat who grew up in the suburbs, and went to Korea to teach English? Let me know how close I am, because I'm confused on how the education system failed you enough to not know how to do a proper competitive analysis.

Are you Korean? Do you live in Seoul?