By The North Koreans are now admitting that they have Robert Park in custody:
North Korea acknowledged it has detained an American for illegally entering the reclusive country, news welcomed by relatives of an Arizona missionary who feared they would never hear from him again after he sneaked across the border.
Activists say they last saw Robert Park as he slipped across the frozen Tumen River into North Korea on Christmas Day, carrying letters urging the country’s absolute leader to step down and free the hundreds of thousands of people held in political camps.
After four days without any word, relatives of the 28-year-old Korean-American said Tuesday they were relieved when the communist country finally announced it had a U.S. citizen in custody — though analysts say Park’s actions are likely to be seen as hostile to the regime and could draw a long prison sentence. [Star Tribune]
This guy probably will draw a long sentence, but likely will not serve it all after some agreement is eventually worked out like with other prior Americans detained in North Korea. One Free Korea makes a good point about what information the North Koreans may be able to pump out of him in regards the underground refugee railroad in China.
7:53 am on January 4th, 2010 1
You have now idea how much this story boils my blood. This guy just carelessly risked the lives of hundreds of North Korean human rights refugees in order to get a little publicity for himself. What did this guy expect to happen when he walked into DPRK? His father was quoted as saying that what he did was brave. It is an act of pure stupidity. I know that Korean pastors compete with each other to bring converts and prestige to their churches. I would not be surprised if this case had similar motivations.
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January 4th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
This makes your blood boil more than what is going on in North Korea? Please, save your bias against Christians and Korean pastors and ask yourself if you’d be brave enough to do what Robert did. What does this have to do with your comment that Koreans pastors compete with each other for converts? I know Robert and if you actually took the time to read his letter and other news releases from his group, you would realize that self-promotion was the last thing on his mind, but obviously your bias against Christians and Korean pastors has clouded your ability to think clearly.
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January 4th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
I am Catholic and not biased against Christians like you have so falsely accused. I don’t think what he did was brave. I think it was absolutely stupid. What did he expect to happen when he entered into North Korea? He has intimate knowledge of the passage of North Koreans into the China, and now the lives of hundreds are at stake. Will North Korea crack down even more now that this Korean Harriet Tubman has been captured? I do criticize this Korean pastor because this logic that he applies–to enter into North Korea to draw attention to its tyranny, yet have the U.S. ignore it–is entirely flawed. Robert Park criticizes the U.S.’ (and other countries’) inattention to this issue, but he hopes that the U.S. ignores this situation entirely. Oh sure, that will get his message across.
This is another Korean pastor that has been blinded by the notion of faith, which places other lives including his own at risk. This reminds me of that ill-fated pastor and his missionaries that went to Afghanistan. Great end result.
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January 4th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
You have falsely accused Robert of pure stupidity. If you read your Bible I’m sure you would accuse Paul of pure stupidity as well. Again, I point out that if you took the time and patience to read his statement/letter before his entry into North Korea, he has made clear that he does not want to be rescued and savded – he has gone in there with the possibility of not coming out. You may call that stupidity, but I call that courage and faith. If and when he is imprisoned with other North Korean prisoners in whatever detention center or cell or prison, knowing him, he would practice (not just preach) the Gospel to those around him. Why do you (and others) automatically assume that he will give away secrets or closely guarded info about NK refugees or info about rescuers etc.? And what does this issue have to do with the Korean missionaries that went to Afghanistan, except to show your disdain and bias for Korean pastors and missionaries who are not Catholic?
January 4th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
HANK, the guy must have known his ‘bravery’ would put others in danger when he purposely crossed the border. I am sure he understood he would be arrested and given a stern jail term.
The only reason would be that he saw himself as ‘the’ self appointed martyr doing ‘gods’ will.
I think he was a ‘nut’
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January 4th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
He must be morally superior to the rest of us. The Lord works in mysterious ways and He recruits nuts by the bushel to do His bidding.
/As far as the future of this pastor, I say let the Lord provide for him.
January 4th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Dear Gerry, you are entitled to your opinions, but I know him as a friend, and not only is he not a ‘nut’, but the last thing he would consider himself is as a ’self-appointed martyr’.
January 4th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Dear Leon Laporte, you are unintentionally correct with your saracastic remarks; the Lord will provide for Robert.
January 4th, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Alluha Akbar.
January 4th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Great, that is the only retort you can come back with?
January 5th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Its the one that best fits the discussion.
While I make light of his escapade, I’m sure he whole heartedly believes in what he is doing. I have no doubt about his ‘faithfulness’ to his religion. Its his common sense I question.
Will anything be resolved because of these actions? I think not. It will become another ‘bargaining’ tool for the NKs to use to prolong their regime. In other words causing the opposite of what he intended.
But his religious beliefs told him he must do what he must do and so he did. Not a wise decision on his part.
11:46 pm on January 4th, 2010 2
Hank,
“Why do you (and others) automatically assume that he will give away secrets or closely guarded info about NK refugees or info about rescuers etc.?”
Aaaaaah… ve have vays to make him talk, ya?
None of the currently-available gods have a very good track record of resisting prolonged physical, psychological or pharmaceutical methods of interrogation.
If he was young and pretty and female and working for connected Hollywood liberals with their own goals of manufactured relevancy and financial gain, he might have succeeded in bringing a few quickly-forgotten news cycles of attention, via some well-worn antifreedom/antipeace-loving dictatorship cliches, to a short-attention-span and generally-uncaring American population already suffering from Evil Regime Fatigue.
Instead, he and his family will go through a great deal of personal turmoil, needlessly disrupt America’s engines of diplomacy, accomplish less for the North Korean population than if he had continued activism and assistance and likely cause untold problems for a large number of people on both sides of the border who are quietly assisting North Korean citizens while trying desperately to undermine the North Korean regime.
This indicates that he is either unable to understand the consequences of his actions (crazy) or he is carrying out a self-serving gamble to get some street cred in the activist community with the hopes of a Clinton-esque rescue and all the political, financial and social gains that come with it.
Not terribly flattering or sympathetic either way… although I would welcome other spins or interpretations.
As predicted, this is what we get for not allowing Ling and Lee to serve a multi-year example to every crackpot who wants to get their 15 minutes of fame.
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January 5th, 2010 at 12:02 am
Chickenhead, if you talk to the North Korean defectors that know Robert, they will tell you that they are moved by his courage to go into North Korea. The defectors I have talked to who know Robert are baffled by the response of people who criticise and oppose what he did. They are even more perplexed by these so-called Christians who are criticizing Robert. Apart from the fact that he is a Christian missionary (which seems to give people the urge to immediately label him a nutcase), the defectors themselves see this as an incredibly brave and moving act that encourages them to be more proactive in promoting human rights in North Korea.
I realize you and others come from the perspective of people who do not know Robert personally, and therefore I as someone who does know him might feel compelled to ‘protect’ and defend a friend, but trust me when I say this – he is not crazy, nor is he doing this to get ’street cred in the activist community’. He certainly does not want any political or financial or social gains from this. You may deem this as spin or interpretation, but this is the Robert I know and that’s all I can say… I do agree with you that not only in America, but in South Korea as well, the population is uncaring when it comes to an issue like this. The media might have forgotten about him but there are people around the world who will not.
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January 5th, 2010 at 1:13 am
Well if he doesn’t want 15 minutes of fame, that was a pretty useless thing to do. What can one man accomplish by going to North Korea? Did he expect to rally the North Koreans into a happy state of mind?
Dumass: “I bring peace and love to you, North Korea!”
North Korean: “Um, ok.. did you bring any food?”
Dumass: “Well I have a pack of gum. Oh shit.. I didn’t think this through. Arrest me Mr. North Korean Soldier-man! Tell Kim I want my phone call to Bill Clinton, and tell Larry King I can appear on the show in 4-6 months.”
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12:20 am on January 5th, 2010 3
GI Korea, I promise that this will be my last comment in this thread. I don’t want this to turn into something like that absurdly long thread on ROK Drop that devolved into personal attacks and mudslinging.
Hank, you seem to have convinced yourself that I have some sort of agenda against Korean pastors and that I am bent on starting Inquisition 2010 against Korean Protestants. I know I’m not going to change your opinion of me. Nevertheless, I would like to inform you that many Koreans including myself are also Catholic. There are also Korean Catholic pastors including the ones at the Korean Catholic Church near my home. I live in a major Korean community and seeing as how a most Koreans are Protestant, I have met several Protestant pastors (including one in my neighborhood) and missionaries (including at university) whom I find personable and genuine. If you wish to be even more specific on whom I exactly hate, then please clarify once again (but I won’t reply).
I am not questioning Robert Park’s character. If you check my original comment, I said this act was stupid. Knowingly walking into NK and getting captured was stupid, stupid, stupid. Park seems genuine about his work. Park leading North Koreans out of the DPRK was Paul-like. It was dangerous and faith driven, but it was not stupid since capture was not necessarily imminent. Willingly being captured by North Korea was irrational and necessarily imminent. I have heard what Robert said. He was disappointed by the inattention to NK by developed states, such as the U.S. The next point is what confuses me, and I incorrectly wrote this in my first comment. He does not wish to draw publicity to his capture. Okay. So what does that accomplish? He wants more attention on the NK human rights issue, but he does not want his capture to be publicized? How does losing a critical voice in the North Korean issue solve this problem? It doesn’t. Robert hopes to preach while imprisoned in concentration camps? Oh, I didn’t realize that Kim Jong-il mandates Sunday service in those cold, disease-ridden concentration camps. Those prison guards will isolate him and/or torture him so that he can’t preach. You can’t preach when there is no one around you. The whole point of a concentration camp is to take away a prisoner’s goals, wants, and desires. If he wants to preach, the DPRK will make sure that he can’t preach. Does it matter if Robert reveals anything while imprisoned? The fact is that the DPRK has removed a key player in the North Korean underground railroad, and the DPRK has gained that much more tyrannical power over its people.
This situation relates to the Korean pastor and missionaries in Afghanistan because both emphasize misguided faith being involved with dangerous environments, which led (in Afghanistan) and will lead (for Robert) to disastrous results.
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January 5th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Dear Korean-American, I do not think I have personally attacked you or resorted to mudslinging, but if you feel slighted, then I genuinely apologize – please try to understand that this is a friend of mine we’re talking about, so I may have been overly zealous in my replies. I have not convinced myself that you are against Korean pastors or that you are anti-Protestant. I myself know quite a lot of faithful, genuine Koreans/Korean-Americans who are Catholic, and also Korean Catholics who are involved with NK-related work here in the US and in ROK and in China. And, I have never stated that you ‘hate’ anyone. I am sure you are a faithful Catholic, and you are doing your part to advance HR for North Koreans and help the suffering (or else you wouldn’t be reading this blog!).
Remember that Richard Wurmbrand, the Romanian pastor imprisoned for his faith, although he spent many years of his imprisonment in solitary confinement and isolation, he was able to witness his faith to fellow prisoners and his guards. Though the camps/prison cells may indeed be cold and disease-ridden, and the guards ruthless and violent, I am confident that Robert through his faith will be able to endure and show them genuine faith. As a Catholic, you would know and understand that God works in mysterious ways and surely Robert will be able to touch someone, somehow, and even if it is one person, who knows how that one person will be affected, whether it is a prisoner or a guard?…
And, I would disagree with you that although Robert may currently be ‘removed’ from the ’scene’, so to speak, he went in there on his own, and others have/are/will take his place and there are untold numbers of people/activists/volunteers working to save North Koreans and advance human rights in NK. It is to those people that someone like Robert gives hope and encouragement to.
Lastly, remember that countless Catholic and Protestant missionaries did ‘crazier’ things than Robert did in their faith in going to hostile lands. I trust that you will have faith in your God that good will come out of this. I have enjoyed ‘talking’ to you and wish you the best, Korean-American!
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5:51 pm on January 5th, 2010 4
Maybe he’ll get really luck and they will crucify him. Then we can make up stories about all the wonderful things he did. Cool!
/I know, unlikely, but I have my faith!
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5:05 pm on January 6th, 2010 5
I dunno. Only God knows the real truth. I do think if Park really heard from the Lord to do this, it’s awesome. Trying to “figure it out” in the natural doesn’t work if it’s an act that is spiritually discerned.
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January 6th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Maybe the Tooth Fairy told him to do it!
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January 13th, 2010 at 12:35 am
Leon,
you need to respect other’s faith.
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February 9th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Faith in what? Most of them can’t even explain their “faith” or the tenets of it, or mouth what some shyster has told them. Even if they are able to do so, they rarely follow those tenets.
…and why on earth should I respect the utterly ridiculous?
8:47 pm on January 6th, 2010 6
I had a terrible revelation this morning.
Political correctness has become so pervasive that it has even infected North Korea.
Before political correctness went mainstream, snoopy reporters, defecting soldiers or crusading preachers upsetting the balance of Dear Leader’s Glorious Paradise would have never been heard from again.
Now, North Korea is so worried about PC image that they treat captive “spies” reasonably well and release them after only a token amount of time in captivity without even any old-school torture.
(What a funny world we live in when authoritarian dictatorships don’t torture their foreign enemies in indefinite confinement yet freedom-loving democracies do. Hmmm… this requires further thought.)
…but… maybe it is the right thing for North Korea to do.
Ling and Lee came back with substantially muted criticism of North Korea…. which they dutifully passed on to their trailer park-inhabiting femino-commie audience… and not a peep about the evils of NK has been heard from them since…
…although the revelations in Lee’s “six-figure book deal” have yet to be seen.
Still, the whole debacle was a net gain for North Korea not including the bonus publicity shots of Clinton.
It almost seems in the last decade or so that North Korea WANTS Americans to slip across the border… and the more well-known they are, the better.
There almost seems to be an unspoken agreement that We Will Use You To Get Something From The United States And You Will Get A Career/Publicity/Income Boost In Exchange For Minimal Discomfort.
Robert Park is likely more sincere in his goals than the career whores that Ling and Lee were/are but, on the surface, he is either irrational, taking advantage of this unspoken agreement or making a desperate act to escape some recent personal/emotional/financial/career/legal crisis that is yet to come to light.
If anybody in North Korea has reprogramming capability (likely) and the current US administration is more inclined to rescue verified liberals than Christians (likely), it is possible that Robert Park will not be released until he is no longer deemed a threat… and maybe converted into an asset.
And, unlike the pretty girls in a slow news cycle, Robert Park is nowhere to be found on the front page of anything.
Rough days ahead, Robert. This will be a true test of faith. Good luck to you, though.
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January 6th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Well said.
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6:16 pm on January 7th, 2010 7
I agree with Hank and Theresa, and a little bit with Leon. Robert walked into a hornet’s nest and he knew it, just like Jesus did, when He went to Jerusalem to die for the sins of all people. For a righteous man to give his life to better the lives of the North Korean people – if that is required of him – is an act that few people would ever relate to or understand. Many, many, many people have been praying for a divine breakthrough in North Korea. Robert may have been moved into action as a result of those prayers. This act is so abnormal and selfless, that it must be from motivations that only Robert knows. I read the book “Eyes of the Tailless Animals” by Soon Ok Lee, who was allowed out of a North Korean prison camp. She lived to tell of the horrors she experienced and witnessed, and Robert must have known what he was getting into if he was helping North Koreans in China. Soon Ok Lee was not a Christian when she went in, but she is now… To have knowledge of the terrible conditions of the North Korean people, and to do nothing about it, is too much for sensitive, loving people. May God move more hearts to help the North Korean people, and may we see action to accompany the prayers of Christians for our brothers and sisters in North Korea! May Robert’s quest for international awareness of what is going on in the hermit country, be fulfilled. It may take time to see, but I believe that his actions are far from in vain. We never know the whole story, only God knows, and may His love and strength surround Robert Parks.
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January 7th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
Very well said Arla.
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9:33 pm on January 7th, 2010 8
I knew this guy from my time in SK.
There are alot of crazy korean pastors its true,
but I can give him a character reference and
this guy was the real deal, not obnoxious and over
bearing. He is in no way a publicity hunter.
Low key and humble.
read the red words in a bible and he’s living it.
Righteous – means to bring Justice.. he’s doing what
a nation should be but we’re too cowardly.
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12:39 pm on January 8th, 2010 9
brave man
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9:43 pm on January 11th, 2010 10
To those who don’t know Robert, He is NOT a publicity hound, Neither is he a pastor or leading a church. Nor is he seeking money.
To many of us in Tucson, Robert has always been known as a man of Faith, Prayer and Love.
He went to Mexico for 1 yr and learned to speak spanish, all while ministering to people in the slums and who live at the garbage dump.
He would encourage others to get food, clothing, whatever and then go along with us to help deliver to the places and people who were in need. he would never take anything for himself. If he came to your home, he wouldn’t even ask for a drink of water, but would give you his last drop of water in the 105degree heat.
He is a man who LOVES God, who Knows what God-what Jesus, has done for him in his life and who felt a call to minister not only to those imprisoned, but also to the jailers.
His motivation is LOVE, pure and simple. He is the kind of Christian I wish I could be. Selfless, loving and faithful
And YES, GOD is going to Work this out, For Robert’s and the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of CONCENTRATION CAMP detainees good.
Fellow Christians, lets pray with a greater fervor.
for the skeptics-we pray for you also. just sit back, and watch God move.
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7:42 am on January 25th, 2010 11
He is a living martyr willing to suffer with 24 million people. He is like Aung San Suu Kyi who chose to live among her people. She is not stupid so as Robert Park.
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January 25th, 2010 at 9:01 am
He and his followers may be delusional enough to equate him with Aung San Suu Kyi. But I doubt you will see any international clamoring and offers of concessions to the North Koreans to free him.
He is already forgotten.
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January 25th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Like I said before. Maybe he’ll get lucky and they will crucify him. Looks like a messiah delusion if #11 is any indication of the mi9ndset involved here.
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February 9th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Like I said to PHRAWGH, how can you be so hateful to aother human being? You’re not perfect either.
February 9th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
He wanted to be a martyr and spread his message where it was not welcome. I just wanted him to get his wish!
7:14 pm on February 4th, 2010 12
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/north.korea.american.held/index.html?hpt=T2
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2:51 am on February 5th, 2010 13
N. Korea says it is releasing U.S. citizen
See. If no one offers any rewards or concessions to free these guys, the North Koreans have no use for them.
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February 5th, 2010 at 3:30 am
Dammit. I guess the crucifixion is off then….
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11:49 am on February 9th, 2010 14
How can you be so hateful? This man is a human being created in God’s image. Just like you are.
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February 9th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Please describe “gods image”.
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9:28 pm on February 9th, 2010 15
Hi Leon…
See Genesis 1:26&27. According to the Bible, you can look in the mirror for your answer. God, however, is without sin, and we were created in that image. Have you looked into the life and character of Jesus Christ? That is were you will see the exact image/likeness of God. See Colossians 1:15, and 2 Corinthians 4:4. As creatures created in His image, every human being is worthy of honor and respect; he/she is neither to be murdered or cursed. I wonder if that is why Robert Parks felt so strongly about going into North Korea – to stop the abuse of the people there – because he knew that those people are precious to God, and should not be so badly mistreated?
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February 10th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
Why does a multidimensional space alien who is immortal need lungs? Why does it need a penis (except maybe to rape virgins)? With endless control of the physical universe why need hands, arms, fingers?
I suspect that if the god you worship actually existed, you would not recognize it. If actually encountered, I suspect anyone doing so would go screaming and shitting insane.
I’m not talking the old man with a beard ala family Circus, you must admit THAT would be just silly – and equate your deity to Santa Claus. No, I expect that if any god did exist, it would be much more along the lines of cthulu (or some other Lovecraft creation) both in form and in thought. Read your bible, not just the “good” parts. Satan could have just as easily written it to lead you astray, how would you know?
“Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?” Now consider the god that would create such creatures… Use your mind and open it.
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February 10th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
One of my favorite memories when I was young (25?) was watching a PBS broadcast in Germany (AFRTS, 1975?) about two people in Pergatory (an all white room, with only three doors. One as an entrance, one to heaven and the third to hell. No one knew which door went where.).
They were waiting for God to show up as several other people came and went through the doors. Eventually God does arrive. He was Puerto Rican and the janitor cleaning the floors, with a mop and bucket.
It really rocked my boat about “God”. I think it was called “the steam room” or somthing like that.
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February 10th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
LOL, I looked up “The Steambath” Play, and found it on Wikipedia. It was an excellant play and “shocking” for the times. (1st show of ‘nipples’ on PBS)
February 10th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
You use the Xian god (and the alleged words of the Xian god) as an example of why people should be good to each other?
Should I seriously respond to this? Are you pulling my leg?
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11:51 pm on February 9th, 2010 16
Then God said, ‘Let US make humankind in OUR image, according to OUR likeness…’ Genisis 1.26-28 (Emphasis mine)
Maybe the Us and Our don’t agree with fair treatment?
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February 10th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Why do men feel the need or believe they have the right to tamper with their god’s words?
Isn’t “humankind” the politically correct, non-sexist way of saying “man”, in the ‘official’ translation of god’s word from Aramaic or whatever language this god actually speaks?
They make it so confusing.
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12:22 am on February 10th, 2010 17
And Genesis was written BEFORE the Israelite practiced monotheism. Linguistically Elohim doesn’t refer to or support the idea of a Trinity. So maybe God doesn’t believe in fair treatment or maybe the it’s others in the Divine Counsil of El who don’t believe in fair treatment…hmm…Damn Cohortative and Imperative moods!
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6:51 pm on February 10th, 2010 18
Yes Leon, I have considered such a God, and at least He is not of my creating of what would suit me or not. Such a God who creates and destroys is not one I would necessarily insult. Maybe you ought to read the whole Bible yourself, and not just the “bad” parts of it. Maybe you can appreciate that a God who levels mankind is also the God who allowed mankind to kill Him. He is a God who demands some kind of payment for the sins of mankind, and the evidence of this is that we do die – do you have a way out? He basically set up a way out, through Jesus, and according to the Bible, Jesus willingly suffered and died so you don’t have to (John 10: 14-18). A God who does that for a creature who is so irreverent and selfish is a God I don’t understand either, but I sure appreciate, regardless of what other people think. A God who can be understood by the human mind would not be a God, it would be a human creation. I know I had no part or choice in what I was born as, and I don’t know anyone who did. I also don’t have a say in who God is, only I do have a choice in what I can believe or disbelieve in. I look for the most logical choice, and the God of the Bible is it for me. You have made another choice, and that, my friend, is entirely your privilege. Please don’t be offended that Christians want you to be saved too, Leon. Take it from one, I care about you as a fellow human being, and invite you to investigate the God of the Christians. If Robert Parks can get in and out of North Korea, without too much trouble, then maybe there is a God, right? I will keep you in my prayers.
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February 10th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Please do not be offended that I wish to save you from not what you were born as but what you were brainwashed into believing from an early age.
I have no problem with people believing whatever they wish as long as they keep it to themselves. But when they start using their beliefs in a way that applies to secular law, for example, I have a serious problem with that. I have a problem with religious people who elect representatives who wish to push their agendas on others who do not want it. I have a problem with the religious who take precious lives due to their misguided and insanely self contradictory scriptures. The bible and koran only get a pass because they are “holy” books and considered the inerrant word of god (how ironic). Any other book with the inaccuracies and contradictions would be laughed at and scorned (and should be). Oh, I know “it’s just a test” or we mere mortals are unable to know the mind of god etc. etc. ad nauseum… My 15 year-old girlfriend (when I too was 15, smart-ass) used to “test” me all the time. That is not love, that is needy insecurity.
Many religions on this planet have a hard time letting others be and feel like they must lecture us poor non-believers who just don’t know any better.
I tolerate religion but do not have to respect or agree with it, those are quite different things. I’m waiting for that tolerance to return to me and those (and yes there are many and more everyday) like me.
If you want respect for your religion(s) I have a proposition for all the good devout believers out there. Wait until the age of consent until you teach others the “good word”. Wait until they are old enough and mature enough to make intelligent decisions for themselves before they choose their belief system. Waiting until an individual is old enough for military service, to enter a legally binding contract, the vote, or even to buy liquor or porn; shouldn’t be too much to ask, right? Isn’t religion at least that serious of a decision? Even the watered down religions indoctrination one receives in Sunday school?
A child shouldn’t be confronted with such decisions, I’m sure the deity du jour would understand. Children automatically go to heaven anyway, because the are innocent, right? I bet very few 18 year-olds would go for it. The converts you did get would be serious, devout and better christians, would they not? I’ve heard it taught god respects the moral and righteous heathen more so than a lukewarm christian. Teaching from an early age on the other hand has many advantages. I am sure this would never happen.
We are all atheists (and born that way), I just believe in one less fairy tale than you.
I hope for the best for you and yours.
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6:40 pm on February 11th, 2010 19
Thanks for your explanation Leon. You seem to have thought a lot about your position. Your logic about children would work if what they were being taught or not being taught, was not the truth. The Bible is not fairy tales, that is the big problem with Christian vs non-Christian view points. The Bible is like no other book, and is an historical account. Jesus Christ was a real historical person – like it or not. We have a calender that starts with the life of Christ – AD, and BC. I know the atheists would have that done away with, but closer to the chronological time of Christ, this was put in place. There are lengthy genealogies of the 12 tribes of Israel, and archeological evidence of the Bible events is growing all the time. The Gospel accounts are witness accounts of the same person – Jesus Christ – not made up stories. No one dies a martyr’s death for a fairy tale, and the disciples all did, in terribly painful ways, with the possible exception of John. Many other Christians have died, or gone through terrible torture rather than renounce their faith. The main event in the Bible is the resurrection of Jesus. If He did not die and then come back to life, we have nothing. But He did. (see 1Corinthians 15:12-26)
This is where we go our separate ways Leon. The fact that so many atheists will not even take a serious look at the possibility that the Bible could be true, makes me wonder more about the motives behind such resistance, than the stand they take. When you hope the best for me and mine, I thank you. The best is the life that I have in Christ Jesus. This is not something I would trade for anything in the world. I have a science degree, and education degree (from a secular university} and am a teacher, and I can assure you, I am not brainwashed. I can see why Robert Parks would do what he did, as a Christian. The act he did would not make any sense in any other context, so I can see why you are quick to question it. God Bless you Leon – and I mean that in all sincerity. I know what I have in Christ, and I pray that you some day will have it too. I agree with you in your statement that we are all atheists at birth. Truth is not within us, it is waiting to come into us, if we are open to it.
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February 11th, 2010 at 9:34 pm
It’s nice to talk to someone of faith without being threatened, and I appreciate, and am tolerant of, your position. A science degree… At least you think you made a choice. I hope that comforts you. I’ll just leave you with this.
Anyway, you might consider this list- Warning Signs of an Abusive Relationship:
Controlling behavior
Jealousy and possessiveness
Misogyny
Mood swings and short temper
Threats and violence
Emotional abuse
Blaming the victim
Hypercritical nature/unrealistic expectations
Any of these sound familiar? See a pattern? Perhaps you should get help. there are folks out there who can help you escape these types of situations.
Controlling behavior
The manifestation of this trait of abuse in Christianity is evident – in order to have a relationship with someone, God demands nothing less than total control over every aspect of that person’s life. He orders his followers not to marry or be friends with those who believe differently (2 Corinthians 6:14-17); tells them how to dress (Leviticus 19:19, 1 Timothy 2:9); tells them how to act and speak (Deuteronomy 13:6-10, Leviticus 24:16) – and punishes those who disobey with death! – and otherwise demands that the person completely alter their life to better serve him and obey his desires. In both testaments, he views people as “his” and claims the right to force them to behave as he desires; he does not allow them to go their own way even if that is what they want, but exacts swift retribution on all who do not obey him.
Jealousy and possessiveness
This trait is perhaps the most obvious of all – the God of the Bible says that he is jealous (Exodus 34:14), to such an extent that he claims “Jealous” is his name. In both the Old and New Testaments, he reacts with great anger to any suggestion that a person might not be completely devoted to him alone – an anger without reason, since if he is the one true God, then the other deities people worship do not even exist, much less pose any threat to him. He mistrusts people, accusing them of sinning constantly (Psalms 53:3, Romans 3:10), and pursues them with obsessive jealousy, comparing those who worship other gods to prostitutes (Exodus 34:16). As one of the sites listed above (source 4) says, “Jealousy has nothing to do with love” but rather is “a sign of possessiveness and lack of trust”.
Misogyny
Male abusers often have an irrational hatred of and prejudice against women, and the God of the Bible is no different. He says that women are worth about half as much as men (Leviticus 27:3-7), and that a woman who gives birth to a girl child is ritually unclean for twice as long as if she had given birth to a boy (Leviticus 12:1-7). He allows men to have multiple wives (Solomon had hundreds), but never women to have multiple husbands. He says that men are to rule over women and women are to submit themselves to men (Genesis 3:16, 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Peter 3:1); even more so, he says that women are the property of men (Exodus 20:17, which includes wives along with houses, cattle, slaves, and other things that “belong” to one’s neighbor). He forbids women to make promises without the permission of their husband or father (Numbers 30:2-13), a trait that would be very typical of an abusive relationship. He demands that women remain silent in church and says it is a “shame” for them to speak there (1 Corinthians 14:34-35), and says that women may not teach men, but must learn from them in silence (1 Timothy 2:11-12). The consistent message of the Bible is that women are inferior to men in virtually every way. Could a healthy human relationship work like this? Would a loving husband demand his wife remain silent inside his house, or regard her as unclean and refuse to touch her after she had given birth to a daughter?
Mood swings and short temper
The bipolar nature of the Biblical God is evident from the text: though he claims to greatly love and bless those who obey him (Deuteronomy 7:9), even slight provocations cause him to react with sudden fury, and past obedience means little or nothing as soon as a person commits some sin. Never does God let people off with only a warning. He says that, if the Israelites turn away from him, he will destroy them “suddenly” (Deuteronomy 7:4); even David, Israel’s greatest king, was punished for a single act of disobedience – taking a census – with a plague that killed seventy thousand people (2 Samuel 24:15). In Deuteronomy 28, within a single chapter, the emphasis moves abruptly from the many great blessings and rewards God will confer upon the Israelites if they obey him (28:1-14) to the even more numerous and horrible punishments and curses he will send upon them if they stray (28:15-68). This bizarre, Jekyll-and-Hyde conflation of love and wrath would be viewed as mental illness if any human being did it; what emotionally healthy husband would tell his wife that he loved her with all his heart, then in the same breath threaten to kill her if she did not do exactly as he commanded?
Threats and violence
The realization of this defining characteristic of abuse in the Christian system seems too obvious to need comment. Throughout the Old Testament of the Bible, God threatens or commits innumerable violent acts against those who do not obey him exactly as he demands: deadly plagues (2 Samuel 24:15), years of slavery (Judges 3:8), forced cannibalism (Deuteronomy 28:53), violent death in battle (Isaiah 13:15), death by fire and flood (Genesis 19:24; Genesis 7:20-21), and death by stoning (Leviticus 24:16) – to name a few. But even the cruelties of the Old Testament shrink into insignificance before the most terrible threat of the New – the promise of eternal pain, of infinite suffering, in the fires of Hell reserved for those who will not accept its terms. Jesus’ dire warnings that we should fear the God who can consign us to this fate (Luke 12:5) only go to show how the Christian relationship, on its own terms, is built on fear and threats of violence.
Like many abusers, God is also cruel to animals and children. He once drowned all the world’s wildlife in the great flood, and instructed the Israelites to kill even the cattle of the heathen people whose land he had given them (1 Samuel 15:3). Children do not escape his wrath either. Not only did he order his marauding Israelites to kill even the young and newborn of the Canaanite cities (Joshua 10:40), not only did he drown them en masse in the deluge, he swore bloody vengeance against the unborn children of Samaria (Hosea 13:16), sent wild bears to maul the youths who mocked Elisha (2 Kings 2:24), and promised happiness to those who smashed children against stones (Psalms 137:9).
Only an abuser is physically violent against those he claims to love, and a sound, healthy relationship can never be built on the underlying threat of bodily harm. Violent behavior can coerce obedience, but never create love. On the contrary, it only provokes fear and resentment. Did it ever occur to the OT God that the Israelites strayed so often precisely because their relationship with him was so marked by abuse and unsatisfactory? Did it occur to him that his constant barrage of threats is what kept causing them to turn away?
Emotional abuse
In addition to physical violence, the Christian relationship with God is marked by emotional abuse and putdowns. After all, the foundational principle of this relationship, which we are told we must realize and accept before entering into it, is that we are wretches – depraved sinners who are incapable of pleasing God by our own efforts and who rightfully deserve eternal damnation in a place of suffering and despair too horrible to imagine (Romans 3:23, among others). This theme of humanity’s inferiority, of the worthlessness of our endeavors, of the fundamentally evil nature of our hearts, and of our total lack of importance in the face of the greatness of God, pervades the evangelical mindset, and is the epitome of insult and emotional abuse. One well-known Christian writer succinctly summed up what Christianity taught him about his own self-worth when he said, “The real test of being in the presence of God is that you either forget about yourself altogether or see yourself as a small, dirty object” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, book III, chapter 8, “The Great Sin”). And, an atheist might say in rejoinder, the real test of being in the presence of someone who truly loves you is that you know you are a valuable individual accepted for who you are.
Blaming the victim
True to form, the Biblical God does not accept that his own hair-trigger temper is the main reason for the cruelties he inflicts on humans. Instead, he claims that humans themselves are to blame for the punishments they suffer, that they force his hand by their sin and deserve what they get (Romans 6:23) – although by definition, no finite sin can merit an infinite punishment, and most of the so-called sins God punishes with death and slaughter do not even seem to be crimes at all, such as taking a census, or catching a holy relic to prevent it from falling off a cart (2 Samuel 24:1-15; 2 Samuel 6:6-7). God even claims that infants and unborn children deserve the horrifying fate he wreaks upon them (Hosea 13:16). In the midst of this blaming everyone but himself, there is one rare moment of candor – God admits that he destroyed an innocent man for no reason at all (Job 2:3) – but since this confession was made only to Satan, with no human standing witness, it should hardly be counted.
Hypercritical nature/unrealistic expectations
To hear the Christians tell it, God deliberately created humans imperfect, not just susceptible to sin but helpless to avoid it, and then demands moral perfection from us anyway – knowing full well it is a standard we cannot possibly meet. He then proceeds to criticize us constantly for not living up to this impossible standard, in one case comparing all people’s good deeds to filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Rather than give us any credit for trying even when we fall short, it seems, nothing we can do is ever good enough for him.
Hope that helps!
Good luck to you.
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8:02 pm on February 12th, 2010 20
Leon,
God has sent you a gift.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20100212/sc_livescience/linkstospiritualityfoundinthebrain
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February 13th, 2010 at 12:21 am
Nothing unexpected there. I’d love to drag people out of the bronze age and enable them to think coherently. I guess even with a science degree one is still able to apply circular logic. “The Bible is God’s word because the Bible says so.” or it is true because it states this is the truth. Sad and pitiful as it is, I feel sorry for these people. “I wasn’t brainwashed” says the brain washee… “I’m not a hostage,” states the Stockholm victim.
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1:03 am on February 13th, 2010 21
Leon, believe it or not, the list does not fit my personality or character. I don’t have the warning signs. I respectfully disagree with your interpretations of scripture, if indeed this is your work.
There will come a time in your life, when you will seriously consider your Maker. I will continue to pray for you that when that time comes, you will receive Him with a grateful heart. A God who can be understood by the human mind would not be a God, it would be a human creation.
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February 13th, 2010 at 1:37 am
There will come a time in your life, when you will seriously consider your Maker. I will continue to pray for you that when that time comes, you will receive Him with a grateful heart.
There contained in those words is why I find religion, and religious, despicable. How very condescending. Come out of the cave. We have discovered fire. You make think it the work of the devil but one day your church will use it to purge the earth of heretics and withes. Your Mediterranean Death Cult is a dying belief system. Thank god! Just as no one worships Zeus, Hera, or even Mithras, who the christians plagiarized, one day people will study Jesus as a myth. How quaint. Exept Jesus might be grouped in with other leaders of his ilk: Pol Pot, Mussolini, Stalin considering all the pain and suffering he and his followers have caused humanity.
I, like you, am a biological organism. No doubt we are special and unique for our ability to think. For our ability to create gods by the thousands and yet we can not manufacture even the lowliest worm (yet). We can contemplate our mortality, which is the reason for creating gods and heavens, we fear death. The thought of non-existence is scary but just as we did not exist before we were born, we will no longer exist after we die. God did not create us in his image, we created him (it). We are still suffering the repercussions of this particular group of gods we have created. Thankfully, these things too shall pass.
One day (I hope) we will set aside childish things and grasp our humanity and hopefully make the here better for all rather than grasping at hope for a pleasant hereafter. We will turn the cathedrals and temples and mosques into museums to our own stupidity and fear. We will unite and denounce those false idols which previously divided us. Amen!
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12:38 pm on February 13th, 2010 22
The only hope of uniting humanity is in all of us believing the truth, and being honest with ourselves and one another.
There is the real possibility that what the Bible says is the truth, whether that appeals to you or not. Usually the truth is something that we don’t really want to hear, though.
The nature of God is the nature of love – as if anyone really can say they understand that either. Love is not rational – anyone who has really experienced it will agree with this. It is not easily understood, but it is the strongest motivator there is. God can somehow elicit love from people. True love always frees, and gives us the freedom to follow what we want/choose. That may sound unbelievable, but to those who experience God’s love – it is better than anything this world can offer. I am not trying to convince you of anything, Leon, I am maybe trying to get across to you how powerful God’s love is. He loves with a strength that no one can understand, and it is what true Christians ‘get’. This is worth seeking with your whole heart.
Life did exist before we were born – in our mother’s wombs. Now we have this present existence, and Jesus taught and demonstrated life after death. Nothing cold hard biology, humanism, or other religions, for that matter, can come up with, will ever come close to what Christ offers. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” (John 6:68).
Good luck is not good enough for God’s children. We have a Good God, who we don’t fully understand, but love and trust, because He loves us. Love is my weakness Leon. I love this God, and Jesus clearly demonstrates, teaches, and gives us the ability to love one another. I recognize that this will likely sound silly or foolish to a person like you, but this is how it is.
Anyway, this post is about Robert Parks, and I don’t know the man at all, but I was really impressed by his act of going into North Korea to try to help the people there. As a Christian, I am impressed with what he did. To my way of thinking, it must have been motivated by love.
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4:12 pm on February 13th, 2010 23
The only hope of uniting humanity is in all of us believing the truth, and being honest with ourselves and one another. There is the real possibility that what the Bible says is the truth…
So, you are willing to have humanity united regardless of what religion (or lack of) does so, yes? You are just as willing to be united under Islam or Buddhism as long as it is the truth. Good for you, that’s a start.
I’m not going to argue the finer points of your post. You never answer my criticisms. I guess that is the easiest way out. Quote the bible as if it is the inerrant word. But if others do so they are “picking and choosing”. Interesting. Are you fooling yourself or can you not see it. Anyway, you’ll ignore any message I send to you from the “good book” so why make the effort? Only the verses you pick and choose and share are worthy and do not interfere with your fragile belief system. Too bad, I thought we could have an
honest conversation.
I assume you are a woman from your name, forgive me if I’m wrong.
I DO have one quote for you:
“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)
As far as Robert Parks: A self aggrandizing fool. Acted out of love? Ha.
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6:42 pm on February 13th, 2010 24
Leon, how could you possibly know the motives of another person, let alone God? You can speak for us all? Then go ahead. I’ll leave you to it.
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February 13th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
I like how you only answer the parts of posts you want to. That’s one way to “win” an argument, ignore it! Knowing the motives of other people is fairly rudimentary. It is called experience. People use evidence, assumptions and past experience to form opinions of others all the time. It happens in job interviews. It happens in police stations. It happens in court rooms. It happens on first dates. It happens in confession booths.
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9:52 am on February 14th, 2010 25
I have been incorrectly calling Robert Park, Robert Parks. Sorry for the mistake.
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February 14th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
No matter how you spell his name it sounds the same… A$$HOLE. Sometimes douchebag. I wish the norKs and other countries would just shoot the missionaries in the head and we can all be done of them. But, who would they charge for the bullet. Perhaps we could take up a collection.
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9:23 am on February 15th, 2010 26
Hey Leon, I couldn’t resist.
“You might consider this list- Warning Signs of an Abusive Relationship:
Controlling behavior
Jealousy and possessiveness
Misogyny
Mood swings and short temper
Threats and violence
Emotional abuse
Blaming the victim
Hypercritical nature/unrealistic expectations
Any of these sound familiar? See a pattern? Perhaps you should get help. there are folks out there who can help you escape these types of situations.”
Reply