By I haven’t been paying attention to the news (Korean or other) for a few months and haven’t been checking the blogs, but this news has me wondering:
What does it mean if NK could sink one of South Korea’s newer warships with a torpedo with no prior warning or indications? What are the implications for the US Navy?
I would think the sinking will be a major boon for the North in terms of selling these weapons to countries in the Gulf region, and if the weapon can evade South Korea’s military technology, can it evade ours? What is the potential of seeing US ships struck in Gulf or elsewhere within the next 10 years???
I didn’t have time to read all of GI Korea’s suggestions and the comments on a response to this provocation, but I would think much stronger interdiction of North Korean subs, large or small, would be something definitely to do.
In the last 90s, you read every few months about South Korean boats chasing mini-subs and larger subs even in places far south. I’d like to see South Korea team up with the US in use of sub detection methods with a mapped out strategy of catching sight of the subs NK frequently sends into South Korean waters — and then sink them. At the very least, sink one or two out of precedent and harass all others detected as long as the North continues to send them out of the docks and into South Korean or Japanese waters.
11:35 pm on May 19th, 2010 1
I know they've been talking about big ROK-US anti-submarine exercises in those same waters. Another thing I read is that the ROK didn't do a lot of ASW stuff on the west coast because they thought the currents and undersea topography were too treacherous for subs to maneuver in. I guess that theory is debunked…
2:33 am on May 20th, 2010 2
The ROK navy ship that was sunk was NOT a relatively new ship. It was almost 20+ years old and apparently it didn't even have passive sonar system. When the ship was launched it was beyond their budget.
It will be very hard to detect a diesel/electric sub or a half submersible in any circumstances, more so in the noisy environment where this happened. But yes, it's about time ROK invested more in its navy, not in flashy AEGIS ships but ones that actually get down and dirty with the main enemy of ROK, NK.
4:17 am on May 20th, 2010 3
usinkorea wrote:
I didn’t have time to read all of GI Korea’s suggestions and the comments on a response to this provocation …
John wrote:
The ROK navy ship that was sunk was NOT a relatively new ship.
No offense to usinkorea, but this sounds like it should have been a comment to a post rather than a post itself. I mean this particular post, not his posts in general. Again, no offense. And feel free to yank this comment if you like.
12:38 pm on May 20th, 2010 4
Could also be the ship was not expecting, so not playing the game they way they should have been. Perhaps the "Captain" of the ship was a little too relaxed.
2:57 pm on May 20th, 2010 5
I remember there was a lot of subchasing in the late 1990s in the western waters – all the way down to the southern end of the peninsula. Including the semi-submersable spy subs.
I'd like to hear more stories like that and see one or two wrecked and put on display…
5:44 pm on May 20th, 2010 6
I believe this is the ship in question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_(PCC-77…
I have a feeling that after Lee Myung Bak starts ramping up the military budget, the rest of the ships of this class will be outfitted one by one with remote control devices to be used as target practice by a small, but very high tech, future navy.
7:06 pm on May 20th, 2010 7
@Left Flank
I wonder if you have ever served in the military. While I do agree that the ROK Navy needs to step up its game, you are being way too harsh(insulting?) on the ROKN and the ROK forces.
1. There are a number of known cases that submarines have been able to penetrate the US Navy, the most advanced navy in the world. At the top of my head, ROKN submarine during the RIMPAC exercises comes to mind. A Rusian submarine that was not detected until it surfaced near a US Navy carrier comes to mind also. There are quite a few cases. All I am saying is, detecting a submarine is not as easy as you think it is. Especially when you are passively detecting submarines in constrast to all out ASW style detection methods.
2. Do you know the budget constraint the ROKN has to work around? The ROK Army is sill by far the most powerful politically among the military branches and sadly they take the lion's share of the Korean military budget. There were attempts to change this for the better during President Roh's administration as can be seen by the purchase of Aegis and AWACS during his term. But after his term ended we are seeing the power shift back to the army.
3. Looking at the big picture, yes I am also disappointed in the inability of the political and military leaders of Korea to realistically layout a more effective and balanced road map and long term budget for the military. However you should not be so quick to judge the capability and readiness of the military itself.
Your post "Do we have to keep carrying such a pathetic ally," is an insult to the soldiers of both the ROK and US forces in Korea who put their lives at risk everyday.
4. The Cheonan incident was a surprise attack. While it would be ideal if the ROK military can detect ALL surprise attacks and deter it before it happens, realistically everybody knows that's impossible. All military strive for that ideal state but no military in this world is going to be able to achieve it. Remember 9.11? The Pearl Harbor? The spear and the shield dilemma?
5. If it is found out that there was in fact punishable shortcomings from the Cheonan crews and other support personnel, they should be punished. Also the big picture needs to be overviewed and the leaders need to realize and correct the imbalance within the Korean military focus and budget. Other problems that are identified thanks to hindsight also needs to be addressed. But at the end of the day I trust the ROK and US soldiers who put their life on the line everyday and I am pround to have once served with them.
8:12 pm on May 20th, 2010 8
[...] Do we have to keep carrying such a pathetic ally – one with an authoritarian past to boot? The implications of this “failure” go far beyond the NLL. I would think the sinking will be a major boon for the North in terms of selling these weapons to [...]
8:15 pm on May 20th, 2010 9
[...] I feel the same rage when I come across ROK army conscripts with unkempt hair, muddy boots, and sloppy uniforms. This soldier is a disaster waiting to happen! Apologies are inadequate for the amount of harm such incompetence can create. I don’t want to have to support an abject failure that has brought ruin on itself. And, that’s how I’m really beginning to feel about the political and military chain of command supporting the Cheonan. The North Koreans scored an easy victory because the South Koreans sucked. Do we have to keep carrying such a pathetic ally – one with an authoritarian past to boot? The implications of this “failure” go far beyond the NLL. [...]
2:57 am on May 21st, 2010 10
http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Maritime_S… http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Maritime_S…
Source of images:
http://www.specialoperations.com/Focus/Maritime_S…
1st photo is of a NK sub that got stuck when fishing net fouled up its screw, in 1996 off of SK shore. It was found only because a SK cab driver driving by on coastal highway at night happened to see it. The sub apparently had been trying to insert/extract commandos/agents off of SK shore.
Detailed article about the 50 day long incident.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBS/is_4_…
My recollections of the incident
One chilling story I read is that SK military found dead bodies of NK men, lined up neatly, near where the sub was found. Each had a bullet hole in the head. The assumption is that they were crewmen of the sub. They were apparently killed 1) for failing to complete missions, 2) no chance of getting back to NK on land 3) protect secret. No sign of resistance by the crewmen while being executed by commandos.
For next few weeks small groups of NK commandos (apparently valued assets by NK and trained to evade/escape) were hunted down and killed. I believe there were 2 separate groups? First was killed off easily but the last group of 3 (2?) proved to tough to capture/kill. At the final shootout, involving 2 NK commandos, one or 2 dozen SK soldiers were killed/wounded. The SK soldiers were huddled up for planning after initial contact with the 2 NK commandos, and incredibly one of the NK commando crawled up near and tossed grenades. Some high ranking SK officers were killed in the final shootout.
Days before this final shoot out, a SK enlisted man out on a brush clearing detail with his unit went missing. Incredibly he had been abducted by one of these NK commando. His body was never found.
Hope that satisfies your curiosity.
4:19 am on May 21st, 2010 11
Amen and well said. You cannot be an American soldier. They are mostly stuck up and arrogant.
And what about this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/Th…
low tech Chinese navy pops up in the middle of not just one ship, but an entire US fleet.
Or how about this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing (were the US navy guys sleeping on the job?)
9:55 am on May 21st, 2010 12
Yes, I served as an officer with the ROKAF and thanks for the additional examples.
As for American soldiers being "mostly stuck up and arrogant," I will have to disagree with you. Most US military personnel I've met were professional and dedicated to their mission. I could see that, while budget and technology are also important factors, it was clearly the quality of the personnel that makes the US military such a force to be reckoned with. Keyboard warriors or select trouble makers who make it to the NEWS should not be your basis for judging the US military personnel. My respect goes out to them.
1:00 pm on May 21st, 2010 13
TOM,
The officers I've met were the nicest 'Gentlemen'.
Please cut it out.
7:36 pm on May 21st, 2010 14
That was part of my first stay in Korea.
I remember also an old couple was killed when gathering mushrooms early on the mountain. I remember one commando was captured.
I remember SK soldiers with rifles on most corners in Wonju when I walked to work in the morning.
And I remember seeing the reserve units at a group of factories where I taught. They were sent out in batches to comb the mountains, and I remember thinking, "Goodness, I hope the regular military has a lot more discipline than these guys!!!!" (and I've always heard they have, by the way….)
7:37 pm on May 21st, 2010 15
This is just Tom…
11:20 pm on May 21st, 2010 16
this clearly demonstrates the flawed strategy of multi-billion dollar weapon systems…we better start thinking a lot "smaller"
11:52 am on May 31st, 2010 17
Juan,
The author of Left Flank is just sort of a jerk. That's about all you need to know about him.
12:33 pm on May 31st, 2010 18
Richardson, when are you going to update YOUR BLOG? A lot's been happening about which it would be interesting to read your input.
12:42 pm on May 31st, 2010 19
Not for a good while, probably – conflict of interest. When it's your job, blogging about it becomes cumbersome.
12:47 pm on May 31st, 2010 20
Well, that didn't sound cryptic and ominous.
Well, if you don't have time to blog, feel free to drop in here or at One Free Korea every now and again and chime in.
12:52 pm on May 31st, 2010 21
Not trying to be cryptic – I work NK issues, so I don't blog them anymore. Tried for awhile, just too much trouble separating things.
Tell me the Google Ad at the end of your sidebar is a joke, please;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zKBbtj9rWrU/SbX77Rvyd5I…
1:53 pm on May 31st, 2010 22
Good day to you Richardson. I've checked out your blog and concur with Kushibo that you need to write more
10:25 pm on May 31st, 2010 23
Hey GI – wonder if you (or your proxy) can get onto this list of bloggers that will be allowed into the Pyeongtaek ROK Navy Base to see the Cheonan evidence first-hand:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?a…
4:00 am on June 1st, 2010 24
Lack of discipline among the ROK reserves is the running joke among netizens in ROK.
But I do feel they will contribute when really called to action…
4:01 am on June 1st, 2010 25
I disagree. The bad guys are going smaller/asymmetrical BECAUSE they can't compete in the big/high-tech weapons systems.