By Is anyone surprised by these figures?
If you think cosmetic surgery is only for women, it’s time to reconsider. According to a report by the Seoul city government, the number of older males reacting favorably to cosmetic surgery has more than doubled in the past two years. This apparently reflects the growing trend of “lookism” or an “aggressive approach to look better in other people’s eyes.”
The administration surveyed 22,600 males in Seoul and found 30.5 percent of those in their 20s and 30s as well as 16.1 percent of those over 50 years old responding that it’s okay for men to undergo plastic surgery for aesthetic purposes. The noticeable change was among the older generation: while the figure rose to about 9.8 percent among the younger males, it marked an over two-fold increase from 2008, when only 8.6 percent approved of it.
Twenty-nine-year-old Chung has gone under the knife three times ㅡ twice for a nose implant and once for double eyelid surgery. He said he doesn’t feel embarrassed at all.
“Before, I always thought I was the unattractive one. When good looking guys confidently flirted with girls, I always couldn’t stop staring at them. But after surgery, I feel equally confident. I could talk to any girl and some of them tell me that I look nice. It helped my business and in other aspects in life,” he said. “I recommend it to other people. Why stress when you can change it?”
“Politicians are receiving Botox or double eyelid treatments as well as actors becoming instantly more attractive and it has influenced ordinary people to consider plastic surgery,” Park Yong-nam, a plastic surgeon, said. “Many people think appearance is one of the crucial factors for competitiveness. It boosts one’s self confidence, which is positive for life overall,” he added. [The Korea Times]
The Korea Times attributes the popularity of cosmetic surgery in Korea to three things.
Indeed, Koreans are so cosmetics-surgery crazy, they try to fix everything on their faces. It is universally recognized that Korea is a haven for removing their “physical inferiority complex.” Why is plastic surgery so popular in Korea?
Three important ingredients are present in Korean society to make this possible: One, a population made up of people with plain faces; two, enough money to go around for this fixing enterprise; three, Korea’s famed one-for-all and all-for-one herd mentality.
Combine these three factors and you can see reasons for this wild popularity in plastic surgery. It is so popular and accepted that even the late President Roh, during the first year of his tenure, had an aesthetic eye operation, which made his eyes look bigger like those of an actor ready to go on stage. [The Korea Times]
Time Magazine Asia points out cosmetic surgery being performed in Korea that you don’t see.
The cultural quirks of the plastic surgery business in Asia also extend to sexuality. In China, Korea and Indonesia, where virginity is highly prized, young women go in for hymen reconstructionin time for their wedding night. In Japan, Indonesia and Korea, men ask for penis-enlargement procedures, in part to avoid shame when bathing en masse. [Time Asia]
A 2007 Washington Post article links Koreans obsession with cosmetic surgery, in part, to their belief that external looks are more important than internal looks.
The survey, which was part of a doctoral dissertation and widely covered in Korean newspapers, contacted 810 women in Seoul and its suburbs. A majority of those surveyed agreed that “[e]xternal factors, rather than internal factors, are more important in defining a person’s beauty.” [The Washington Post]
It is getting harder to discern natural looks in Korea as a large part of the population resorts to plastic surgery. I guess if you are considering cosmetic surgery and are living in Korea, it is not a bad idea to look into it while you are here considering the cost is much cheaper in Korea than the U.S.
1:32 pm on September 3rd, 2010 1
Cost is one factor…and the fact there are so many highly experienced plastic surgeons is another factor.
1:55 pm on September 3rd, 2010 2
Population made up of people with plain faces? But I see natural chicks everywhere.
2:34 pm on September 3rd, 2010 3
Nothing — absolutely nothing — can top the disingenuousness of a Korean reporter. For starters, what exactly is a "plain face"? Second, your plain is my exotic. Third, Korea is a haven for borderline personality disorders, classic narcissists, schizotypals and schizophrenics. Add to this the cultural taboo against talking openly or frankly about your problems and a complete ignorance of mental health, psychological theory and therapy techniques, and you have a self-loathing, delusional population ridden with narcissistic envy and obsessive compulsive behavior bent on carving themselves up to suit some fanciful or whimsical image of themselves. The Koreans need a revolution in therapy and mental health — not more plastic surgery.
2:39 pm on September 3rd, 2010 4
Cosmetic surgery is popular, all across Asia, including Korea, but the Korean media blows it way out of proportion and makes it sound as if they're far more prevalent amongst Koreans than it really is. The Korean media are very proud of Korea being affluent and rich enough to afford all these kinds of surgeries that can run up to tens of thousands of dollars for each procedures.
2:42 pm on September 3rd, 2010 5
By the way, the number one plastic surgery nation in the face of the planet is the USA.
2:55 pm on September 3rd, 2010 6
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?ar…
3:09 pm on September 3rd, 2010 7
Tom, per capita, Korea is the plastic surgery capital o the world.
http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/news10-2/…
When are you going to stop comparing total numbers with countries that are far greater in population than Korea? Everyone knows Koreans are obsessed with their looks…
4:07 pm on September 3rd, 2010 8
Plastic surgery is considered "normal" among Koreans, especially anything involving the eyes.
4:12 pm on September 3rd, 2010 9
Now, as for the cost, try to stay away from Myeong-Dong. That's the most expensive place to get anything done. There are plastic surgery places all over Korea, but, for the money, some of the cheapest are in Anyang/Suwon/Dongtan.
5:01 pm on September 3rd, 2010 10
Koreans trying to look like bankrupt westerners.
6:31 pm on September 3rd, 2010 11
In all honesty, how can any westerner, especially we Americans comlplain about Koreans born of a Cosmopolitan 1st world city like Seoul changing their faces? The fact is that between New York and Los Angeles we American literally have a Huge Continent. Koreans do not. Of course in Seoul then can cut their faces and not Pyongyang. Honestly, the southerners who live in South Korea literally are cut off from theirselves from the north.
Hyper-self mutilation is rampant south of the DMZ for a reason.
But not becuase of the Americans. Honestly the Japanese introduced self muilation into the Korean peninsula, not the Americans. The truth is that if anyone blames the Koreans for wanting to be fairer skinned and more surgically altered, then they are an idiot. Japan has more facial surgeries per capita than Korea ever can.
7:48 pm on September 3rd, 2010 12
@ #11 Ditto81
I wouldn't necessarily call it a complaint, per say, but there is definitely a social problem here in the Hermit Kingdom. When Middle school girls' get double eyelid surgery as a gift from mommy, there's something not right with the overall self-esteem in this country.
I'm curious as to why the closer a Korean female looks to a "European caucaziod", the more attractive she is considered by her fellow male counterparts? The usual K-female trend is double eyelid surgeries first (one eye at a time), then the rhinoplasty (high-bridged nose), followed by the power sanding of the high cheeck bones. I've seen more Mediterranean-Korean females than Korean-Korean females.
In most of the cases in the west, the individual wants to take off a few years or enhance a feature, whether it be muscle or cartilage. Usually, the individual is not 14 years old and voluntarily undergoes the procedure at an adult age.
#3 Hans Brinker – Absolutely nailed it. I want to have his children.
Is anything real in this country? Everything is on the surface. It's a front, a FACE!! Save that FACE at any cost! What's at the core and relevant is completely null and void.
7:58 pm on September 3rd, 2010 13
From the actual post itself –
"The cultural quirks of the plastic surgery business in Asia also extend to sexuality. In China, Korea and Indonesia, where virginity is highly prized, young women go in for hymen reconstructionin time for their wedding night. In Japan, Indonesia and Korea, men ask for penis-enlargement procedures, in part to avoid shame when bathing en masse. [Time Asia]"
I love this one. It's absolutely beautiful. The truth is, it doesn't matter that the bride rode 2000 "horses" prior to her honeymoon. And there's no way the groom would ever suspect that his "white-gowned queen" had been de-flowered to the point of ground frost.
9:48 pm on September 3rd, 2010 14
By far, the most popular surgery is the eye lid surgery, which is cheap and routine. Contrast that to the Americans who likes to get their breast implants with fake boobs, noses cut off, faces lifted, and get their fat sucked out.
As for #7's link. Read the bottom of the link:
But, what about all those sensational stories stating that every other woman in South Korea has undergone serious cosmetic work?
————–
But, what about all those sensational stories stating that every other woman in South Korea has undergone serious cosmetic work?
The numbers here don't begin to substantiate such claims. "More" doesn't equate with "all," even though the numerical values would certainly be much higher than 74 in 10,000 if one considered only young adults in the center of Seoul (as would also be the case for Los Angeles, Rio, Shanghai, and other cosmetic surgery "hotspots").
—————-
74 people out of 10,000 in Korea, vs 42 people out of 10,000 in United States. The sensational headlines and bloggers make it sound like every other Korean had surgery, but the real numbers puts everything into perspective. And I wonder how many are repeat procedures by one person. More does not mean all, and most people do not have any surgery. Rokdrop fails with his statistics. It's funny how he's so good at math when it comes to GI crimes in Korea which he's obsessed with, but not for anything else.
10:19 pm on September 3rd, 2010 15
Forget about chick bones and eyelids, the girls should consider routinely getting a shave. I am not going to drill a hairy hole no matter how the owner looks.
10:28 pm on September 3rd, 2010 16
#15, it doesn't matter because you're not getting anything else other than your right hand after those Asian chicks on AV you saw on internet last night.
10:38 pm on September 3rd, 2010 17
요새 저사람 정신장애인인지 아닌지 참으로 궁금했었는데, 하는 말들이 다 묘하게 설득력있네. 아무래도 맞는가 봐.
7:40 am on September 4th, 2010 18
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Geoff Lord, Donna Jinns. Donna Jinns said: Cosmetic Surgery Popular Among Men Living in Seoul | ROK Drop: Is anyone surprised by these figures? If you think … http://bit.ly/aDw1JA [...]
8:03 am on September 4th, 2010 19
Tom states – "74 people out of 10,000 in Korea, vs 42 people out of 10,000 in United States. The sensational headlines and bloggers make it sound like every other Korean had surgery, but the real numbers puts everything into perspective. And I wonder how many are repeat procedures by one person. More does not mean all, and most people do not have any surgery. Rokdrop fails with his statistics. It’s funny how he’s so good at math when it comes to GI crimes in Korea which he’s obsessed with, but not for anything else."
————————————————————————
I would suspect when people say "every Korean woman has/had plastic surgery", it is not meant to be taken literally. This is a loose statement which reflects the idea that a substantial amount of said people undergo these procedures. Greater than the norm. An epidemic? I can't help but wonder how many Koreans just can't afford to have any procedures done. If they could, would they join the "lemming hord"? The staunch reality of mass conformity would dictate the answer be yes.
Also, how many Korean plastic surgeons are actually on the "down low"? There are many aspects of Korean society that are well into the "down low" range. The Korean "74" rating is too low.
Tom – "Rokdrop fails with his statistics. It’s funny how he’s so good at math when it comes to GI crimes in Korea which he’s obsessed with, but not for anything else."
————————————————————————
These are not HIS statistics. He acquires his statistics from other sources. He posts them on this blog and gives references/links. In the west, we call this referencing or "covering your ass" to avoid such ideas as pladgerism (shit, spelling?). Do you think he personally goes out and conducts these surveys in his spare time?
8:44 am on September 4th, 2010 20
Sounds like Tom is the one that uses his right hand dice he's a hermit troll that lives, eats and shits on this blog just to find opportunities to post zingers. Stop feeding the troll.
9:58 am on September 4th, 2010 21
"I would suspect when people say “every Korean woman has/had plastic surgery”, it is not meant to be taken literally. This is a loose statement which reflects the idea that a substantial amount of said people undergo these procedures."
Bull shit. If I said we have GI crimes, and it's a loose statement which reflects the ideal that a substantial amount of said people are troublemakers, would you say that's a loose statement too? 72 out of 10,000 people are not a substantial amount of people. It's a minority of people. And considering that at least 25% of procedures are done by medical tourist foreigners like Japanese, Chinese, and Americans, the numbers are even more skewed.
" If they could, would they join the “lemming hord”? The staunch reality of mass conformity would dictate the answer be yes."
Could or should, does not equate to anything to reality.
"The Korean “74″ rating is too low."
So you say. And who are you? Got any facts, figures, proof? None? Then what you say don't count. Your opinions are worthless.
"These are not HIS statistics."
10:19 am on September 4th, 2010 22
You know, I thought that the popularity of HDTV would make some Korean female celebrities pick their cosmetic surgeons more carefully, and it apparently has, but strangely enough a great deal of the most recently popular male pop singers and TV drama actors are really freaky looking.
12:36 pm on September 4th, 2010 23
Response to K:
You should probably stop having sex with your dog.
12:44 pm on September 4th, 2010 24
Oh but Liz, you are my dog. You want my love no more?
1:21 pm on September 4th, 2010 25
"That was amazingly lame. Are you actually old enough to use the internet?"
Old enough to feed and love a dog, honey.
"This is the first time I’ve noticed a lowbrow troll on this blog."
Indeed. His name is Tom.
2:27 pm on September 4th, 2010 26
"Old enough to feed and love a dog, honey."
Okay, that was somewhat clever. You've redeemed yourself.
4:26 pm on September 4th, 2010 27
So you noticed just now what a damn nice master I am.
I'm holding a hot dog party for you tonight.
5:36 pm on September 4th, 2010 28
Tom writes – "Bull shit. If I said we have GI crimes, and it’s a loose statement which reflects the ideal that a substantial amount of said people are troublemakers, would you say that’s a loose statement too? 72 out of 10,000 people are not a substantial amount of people. It’s a minority of people. And considering that at least 25% of procedures are done by medical tourist foreigners like Japanese, Chinese, and Americans, the numbers are even more skewed."
————————————————————————————————————————————————
Yes, I would say it's a loose statement, because "If you said we have GI crimes", this statement tells me nothing. It states zero numerical value, zero intensity and zero thought. It gives no more information than there are GI crimes.
72 people out of 10,000 is not the majority of 10,000 people. That is correct. But 72 people out of 10,000 compared to 30 people out of 10,000 is a much larger amount. Would you agree?
Regardless of how many other peoples are coming to S. Korea to undergo these procedures, these statistics only take into account "board certified" chop shops. My point was that the number of chop shops in S. Korea who were not included in this data is probably very high. So yes, the numbers are skewed, only not in the direction that would satisfy your protecting the minjoke.
If it makes you feel better Tom, it's my opinion that S. Korea has a very high percentage of fantastic looking women. It's also my opinion that they don't need to undergo all these procedures to satisfy some sick twisted perversion of what they think they should look like. What happened to the Korean pride? The pure-blooded master race? I don't see morphing and twisting of the face as pride in an Asian heritage.
5:42 pm on September 4th, 2010 29
To K and Liz,
Would you two go to a love motel already!!!! K, bring the hot dogs and a leash. Liz, bring a pacifier and some infant formula. Have a blast. I don't want to know what happens. Please don't post any results on this thread. May God bless you both.
6:42 pm on September 4th, 2010 30
Zilchy,
I realize you are not in Korea and you likely have few Korean doctors as friends or acquaintances…
…but you are probably wrong in your idea that there are many underground plastic surgery clinics.
While there are beauty shops that do illegal cosmetic tattooing and illegally dabble in skin treatment, any non-doctor performed cosmetic surgery would be a very, very large exception for many reasons.
The closest situation might be the crossover in specialties… meaning the urologist that doesn't get enough business in his clinic might do double eyelid procedures at a cheaper price…
…but, as he is a licensed doctor, has studied/practiced the procedure under the guidance of a surgeon and is subject to weak liability law but strong social pressure, he will likely be performing the procedures adequately. I have no idea if his statistics are reported… but they likely are for tax reasons if nothing else.
I think a point that everyone missed here is this…
The price of cosmetic surgery is very reasonable in Korea… maybe 25%-30% of the cost in America. This, as much as desire, likely plays a big part in how many people get it.
But what is the big deal anyway? Is everyone bent out of shape because girls want to look better?
I fail to see the crime here…
…especially compared to my last trip around America where the average girl-on-the-street thinks taking care of herself is a clean t-shirt to hide the muffin top and jeans without holes.
Average Korean girls look better than average American girls… they dress better, fix their hair better, wear their makeup better, carry themselves better… and surgery to correct real or perceived flaws is part of that look-better mindset.
Making fun of Korean girls for trying to look better just comes off as general anti-Korean bitching.
If a girl wants to look more attractive, I'm behind her a 100%.
Hopefully doggy style.
6:47 pm on September 4th, 2010 31
I'm not being anti-Korean if I complain about the lack of shaving trend among Korean girls, eh, Chickenhead?
7:12 pm on September 4th, 2010 32
Tom,
One of the most classic number/stat mistakes about Expats was by a politician who submitted such a lie to the Korean National Assembly which said… "Three thousand foreigners in Korea have AIDS/HIV," when this wrong fact was pointed out to the idiot, he said…"It's too late or not worth correcting."
Wrong numbers/stats(most vs all) about plastic surgery is one thing but when a President from one of the biggest Universities in Seoul says…"Native English teachers OFTEN spread HIV/AIDS, do drugs, and sexually harass students" is another. Do you get it yet TOM ?
Don't forget Korean women like to have their calf musles sliced/cut out, muscles on Korean female calves are NOT liked in Korea.
7:16 pm on September 4th, 2010 33
"Don’t forget Korean women like to have their calf musles sliced/cut out, muscles on Korean female calves are NOT liked in Korea."
Wow really? I think most of them – like, a vast majority – don't even care.
7:35 pm on September 4th, 2010 34
As usual, Chickenhead hits the nail. Forty three Americans out of 10,000 gets plastic surgery – a very high number compared to others, yet you wouldn't know the surgeries are helping that much in the looks department.
As for Zilchy's assertions on "chop shops" which are doubtful that could make that kind of a difference in numbers for Korea. If South Korean figures are to be included with "chop shops", then what about China, Brazil, Taiwan, Japan, and the most countries in that list who are more corrupt, you think they don't have underground "chop shops", which would up every countries' numbers? If you're going to compare, then compare with apples with apples.
7:51 pm on September 4th, 2010 35
"Don’t forget Korean women like to have their calf musles sliced/cut out, muscles on Korean female calves are NOT liked in Korea."
I guess you've been reading too much sensationalized reports like shaved legs and hymen surgeries. They're not even popular surgeries. The most numbers on the figures are eyes and nose by far. The hymen surgeries I've started reading reports in the Korean media about ten years ago, but the changing open sexual mores over the years means the reports amongst the expats are now probably highly exaggerated.
7:54 pm on September 4th, 2010 36
"Yes, I would say it’s a loose statement, because “If you said we have GI crimes”, this statement tells me nothing. It states zero numerical value, zero intensity and zero thought. It gives no more information than there are GI crimes"
What kind of bull shit reasoning is this, when we just had news media reports of sixty percent rise in GI crimes last year over the previous year?
So when it comes to foreigners, the numbers are all magically made up and shouldn't be trusted, but when it comes to Koreans, the numbers are all magically true? 
7:56 pm on September 4th, 2010 37
That was amazingly lame. Are you actually old enough to use the internet?
This is the first time I’ve noticed a lowbrow troll on this blog.
8:10 pm on September 4th, 2010 38
ChickenHead,
We meet again, Jedi overlord. I have no problem with women or men who want to look good or even better. I believe this is a natural phenomena.
But it's statements like this which bother me :
————————————————————————————————————————————————
"The survey, which was part of a doctoral dissertation and widely covered in Korean newspapers, contacted 810 women in Seoul and its suburbs. A majority of those surveyed agreed that “[e]xternal factors, rather than internal factors, are more important in defining a person’s beauty.” [The Washington Post]
————————————————————————————————————————————————
I am living in S. Korea at the moment, but have not been here long enough to understand the full "in's and out's" of this society. I have been here long enough to believe that this statement is 100% true.
I have also been here long enough to witness middle school aged girls undergo double eye-lid surgery. To me, this is a problem. They're just too young and mommy gives this surgery as a gift.
Here's another point that bugs me :
————————————————————————————————————————————————
Indeed, Koreans are so cosmetics-surgery crazy, they try to fix everything on their faces. It is universally recognized that Korea is a haven for removing their “physical inferiority complex.” Why is plastic surgery so popular in Korea?
————————————————————————————————————————————————
It's the "physical inferiority complex" idea which I also believe is a staunch reality in this country. You are absolutely 100% correct, Korea women are in general, spectacular looking. They do "in general" take more pride in how they look in comparison to American women, IN GENERAL. But, it's this "inferiority complex" that eliminates practicality on an almost constant basis. High heels and bikini at the beach. Constantly checking themselves in any reflective medium they can find (even their cell phone screen).
It's the reasons and the ideology behind what they are doing that bothers me. It's disengenuiness (spelling?) on a massive scale. Empty human shells walking around with no comprehension of real human meaning.
I see this in many aspects of Korean culture. Meaning has taken a back seat to appearance.
I appreciate you taking the time in schooling me on the 'in's and out's" of the libel laws with respect to this topic. I made an assumption based on other aspects of Korean society that I know are on the "down low" and took the chance that this topic might fall into said category. I was wrong. I was hoping I was correct. I stand corrected and rejected.
And no, I don't feel my views on this subject in regard to Korea are "bitching" by any means. I feel they were spot on. This is a reality.
Look at #3 Hans Brinker – He nailed it, dead center with no error.
P.S. – Doggy-style is good. So is any other style for that matter. As long as there's friction, it's all good, baby!!
8:25 pm on September 4th, 2010 39
"High heels and bikini at the beach. Constantly checking themselves in any reflective medium they can find (even their cell phone screen)."
Taking pride in their looks and looking good, as opposed to taking no pride in their looks and letting themselves go and dying early of heart disease and overweight… which do you prefer? I'll take the first one, ten times out of ten.
9:42 pm on September 4th, 2010 40
Yeah- BUT– there is a point where that pride in good looks (plenty of THOSE to go around in Korea!) turns into self-destructive vanity. It is really sad to see the things which so many of these young and not so young — but still VERY attractive — Korean ladies do which really go to extremes. I guess if you are a moderately attractive woman in Korea, you are too plain.
One would hope that a lady could work on self esteem via real achievements which take hold in the soul, instead of wasting so much on chasing after something which fades as soon as you can artificially achieve it.
9:51 pm on September 4th, 2010 41
Beautiful women of Korea, whether in body or mind, still need to learn to shave punctually. Then I'll be more willing to dog them and relish their sex appeal.
11:35 pm on September 4th, 2010 42
Tom's got strong argument. He may be a troll, but he knows more than these LBHs here.
12:05 am on September 5th, 2010 43
K: I'm sure they're all lining up and waiting for you.
Your sweet nothings like "drilling a hairy hole" do have appeal to people who can't speak English. Anyone who would say something like that would have to be both hung like a toddler AND terminally insecure. But Korean women might be used to the first. And they can't read your bumper sticker that says, "Only a chosen few get to sample my royal jelly", or likely understand much of what you say, certainly a plus in your favor.
12:12 am on September 5th, 2010 44
Liz, I'm happy to know that you are the first on the line.
Be ready to bend over on my command, pup.
12:22 am on September 5th, 2010 45
Having plastic surgery takes time and money, and there are risks involved. Being naturally beautiful only requires you to accidentally have the right genes.
12:36 am on September 5th, 2010 46
#44, plastic surgery is an enhancement to the looks. That's why you see already attractive people getting them done. Plastic surgery cannot make a miracle out of an ugly person into a beautiful person. That's a fallacy that those who are prejudiced against the surgery, holds too often.
2:33 am on September 5th, 2010 47
K,
"I’m not being anti-Korean if I complain about the lack of shaving trend among Korean girls, eh, Chickenhead?"
Nooooo. Harry girls, of any nation or any culture, are acceptable subjects to complain bitterly about.
I'm behind you 100%…
…figuratively or metaphorically only… in this case… of course.
Zilchy,
You make many good points… although I don't agree with your interpretation of some of them…
…but not hatefully so.
"A majority of those surveyed agreed that “[e]xternal factors, rather than internal factors, are more important in defining a person’s beauty."
That is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
Look around at average American women and tell me how those "internal factors" are working out for them.
I'm soooo tired of American women who actually could look good… but they dress waaaay down… baggy clothes, "comfortable shoes", don't fix up their hair… claiming "comfort"… to rationalize "lazy".
And they have biitch written all over their faces.
They chain smoke their cigarettes while talking pottymouth smack and complaining that they can't meet any decent men… then, when one points out how skanky they look, one gets a lecture with clichés like, "People should like me for who I am," and, "I do what looks good in my opinion and I don't care what others think," and, "This is my style," and, "You shouldn't judge a book by its cover."
No… maybe not… but the cover contains valuable information.
Of course, Usual Gang of Scolds, this doesn't apply to all American girls… but, it applies to the majority of average girls taking up the largest part of the bell curve… and it is especially noticeable in comparison to average Korean girls… who, for the most part, look nice, act nice and ARE nice.
…and, one must keep in mind, when a person dresses up, they generally speak and act better and carry themselves with more grace and dignity.
I like that. I bet a lot of guys like that… even ones here who complain about girls trying to look good, after they think it through.
"I have also been here long enough to witness middle school aged girls undergo double eye-lid surgery."
I think you are on to something. It's easy to suspect there is something mentally or physically unhealthy about girls having cosmetic surgery in an age where they are experiencing a major change and their minds and bodies and their personalities have not yet stabilized.
Also, for most of the girls I know who have gotten eye surgery, I felt it was a change but not really an improvement. Their eyes looked fine before… and I can easily point out other changes that would be real improvements. "Shave that upper lip, baby," would be a start… followed by, "Chest out, shoulders back."
There. Two procedures with immediate, noticeable results… free of charge.
BTW, there are different levels of double eyelid surgery… everything from a simple incision to leave a scarred line to slitting the back of the eyelid and removing the fat.
"High heels and bikini at the beach."
Uhhh… O.K… what exactly is the complaint here?
Men find hyper-sexualized femininity attractive… and this can be easily demonstrated anywhere from auto shows to beer ads… teenage pinup posters to porn… beauty contests to pole dancers.
American women reject it as objectification and the backlash results in them rejecting femininity and embracing many aspects of masculinity… except rare occasions when society insists they be ladies.
Korean society just extends this expectation of femininity past weddings, funerals and job interviews… to walking on the street and going to the beach.
Just as good of case can be made that American women are the ones with the mental problem here… as they intentionally reject the ideals of femininity that men make no secret of craving… creating needless friction and resentment instead of desire and respect… and squandering one of their greatest assets in their power struggle with men.
"Constantly checking themselves in any reflective medium they can find (even their cell phone screen)."
Once again, this is an important part in maintaining attractiveness, fitting in and pride in appearance… one of the great things a few decades ago in American culture that went away about the time people stopped dressing up when they flew on an airplane.
"Empty human shells walking around with no comprehension of real human meaning."
When you find the answer to "real human meaning", please tell us.
…but I see where you are going.
"I see this in many aspects of Korean culture. Meaning has taken a back seat to appearance."
Are you sure you aren't talking about the military?
…a little joke there.
I agree. Koreans drink expensive whiskey (one shot!) without understanding it. They play golf without really enjoying it. They buy too many designer bags. This, of course, is only my opinion compared to how I live my life.
You feel girls spend too much time fixing themselves up. O.K. I get your point… even though I think Korean girls spend just about the right amount of time looking in the mirror.
Korean need some hobbies… that's for sure. Not hobbies they are forced to do (golf, piano)… but hobbies they WANT to do. All I can tell you is it is better than it used to be… and hobbyist are coming.
I went to a place last week where people rent rooms for their hobbies that they can't do in a 48 pyong apartment. There are woodworkers, RC car makers, electronics, ham radio, lasers… and these are people that love what they are doing. DIY, especially woodworking, is growing more popular… and there has been an explosion in DIY websites in Korea in the last couple of years.
Be patient. What you perceive to be "empty human shells" are just coming down from a half century of hard, hard work with little time for thoughtful play.
While there is some truth to your perception, Korea is changing quickly.
"I appreciate you taking the time in schooling me on the ‘in’s and out’s” of the libel laws with respect to this topic."
…not "libel" law, "liability" law. When a doctor makes a mistake or the outcome is unsatisfactory, the patient comes with their hand out. Unless the demand is unreasonable, it doesn't go to court… there is just some negotiation and it is quietly paid. In dermatology and plastic surgery, it also includes additional treatments to correct the problem.
"And no, I don’t feel my views on this subject in regard to Korea are “bitching” by any means. I feel they were spot on. This is a reality."
I understand. I guess I just don't agree with all of your perceptions. I don't think Koreans wanting to look better through cheap, simple and low-risk procedures… or dressing to impress… or monitoring the condition of their face to look their best… is much of a problem. And, compared to the American female mindset, it is VERY preferable.
When I talk about bitching, I'm not really talking about your posts… but more of the general whining that says, "I can't believe Koreans do XXXX"… when, either it isn't really a problem… or the reality is that all people do XXXX.
Have faith in Korea, Zilchy. It changes a little every year… and 5 years makes it into a different country.
I just worry that many positive aspects of Korea will change… from young people losing their manners with the influence of shameless Western culture heavy on freedom yet light on responsibility… to girls thinking it is fashionable to look like they just climbed out of bed…
…the list goes on.
2:48 am on September 5th, 2010 48
Amen! Chickenhead hits another home run! Please post more!
What's so unattractive about girls checking themselves in the mirror and fixing their hair and their makeup? I think that's very attractive. It tells me they want to attract the opposite sex. I think that's very sexy. They are attractive enough to care. After all, if you're ugly, you wouldn't care what you look like because you know it's hopeless.
7:07 am on September 5th, 2010 49
It's not just in Korea & Japan that Asian women are have eye plastic surgery. This happens frequently in Vietnam & Cambodia. Also in Vietnam & Cambodia there is a prejudice against darker skinned people. Some women avoid going out in the sun or if they do they cover everything up so as not to get a tan. They even have skin creams that women can buy that bleach their skin. They also do the nose jobs to look more western & they do the cherry fixes as well. Some women who are well used if you know what I mean also can get a twat tuck which is where the Doctor makes the vagina tighter.
8:07 am on September 5th, 2010 50
All of these posts are of course opinions. There are ugly people in Korea as well as ugly people in the U.S.. If the man in the mirror is ugly then his choices are limited to ugly Women. Americans in Korea in general date ugly Korean Women by Korean standards because fact is most Americans in Korea are, well, ugly. There are some beautiful Women in the States you just have to b handsome enough to attract them. If you aren't handsome enough to attract Women in your country then you will talk bad about them as a means of making yourself feel better about yourself…couldn't be the fact that you are ugly, has to be that the Women are ugly and opinionated, right? There are fat Women in the States, true, there are ugly Women in the States, true…but these are also ugly Women in Korea. I hate to say this but I have to agree with Tom in one aspect, American men come to Korea and get the "King for a year syndrome". You will see the ugliest men develop an attitude that rivals Women because they actually get a few looks from Women that the average Korean would find ugly. I work with a couple of these people that just think they are male models that somehow developed model looks the minute they got off the plane in Korea, when they go back to the States, their looks disappear and they are back to dog faces, it just takes about a year to get them back to reality. The fact is that if you have to talk bad about any race of Women, as a whole, then you are probably not attractive enough to date good looking Women that are available in any country you live in and will date any race if that person is attractive. I have seen Korean Men dating Americans, I am not gay but am secure enough to tell you that those Korean Men that you see dating American Women are good looking themselves and thus have a good looking slim, tanned, American Woman by their side. I would say that a lot of the American Men in Korea might want to seriously consider plastic surgery as a means to an upgrade or to at least approach the ego you have developed by being in Korea. The Queen or King for a year person in born when the norm of being ignored by Women is changed to a little attention they receive from Women in Korea which builds their confidence which gets them a little more noticed until it spirals out of control and creates an unrealistic portrait of what is in the mirror… I think that this may have happened to chickenhead and that is why he believes Women in Korea are better looking than Women in the States when in fact there are good lookign Women available in the States, you just have to be good looking yourself to have a shot at them. I'm just saying…
I do think Korea has some Beautiful Women, they like Korean Men because they are Korean now there are some 1st rate Korean Women who date American Men, the American Man just has to be attractive enough, inside and out, to get these Women which is a rare occurance. There are some great looking Women in the States as well that will date a man no matter what their nationality, including Koreans as long as they are good looking inside and out. It all comes down to what staring back at you in the mirror.
8:15 am on September 5th, 2010 51
Tom -“High heels and bikini at the beach. Constantly checking themselves in any reflective medium they can find (even their cell phone screen).”
Taking pride in their looks and looking good, as opposed to taking no pride in their looks and letting themselves go and dying early of heart disease and overweight… which do you prefer? I’ll take the first one, ten times out of ten."
Zero – I prefer a woman who understands that walking through sand in high heels, tripping all over the place, looking like a drunk prostitute is impractical. I also prefer a woman who understands that looking in a reflective medium every 10-15 minutes is a bit overboard. I don't believe much will change in regard to make up or hair style within a 15 minute time span. Unless she walks through a tornado. This is not just wanting to look nice. It goes much deeper. Ofcourse I like women who look nice. Women like men who dress nice. But at what costs? Impracticality, stupidity, mass vanity? There is a time and place for dressing in an appropiate manner.
ChickenHead writes – "When you find the answer to “real human meaning”, please tell us."
Zero writes – A complex subject to say the least, but let's start with the basics. Understanding that relationships are based on more than "what appears on the outside". Something that is completly void in the Hermit Kingdom. How about chemistry, compatibility, personality and "general outlook". These ideas have a much stronger basis and have a better chance to stand the test of time.
ChickenHead, do want to entertain the idea of forming a relationship with a female who blatently states "money is very important in a relationship" or "looks are the most important aspect in a relationship or marriage"? If this is what you are looking for in a any type of relationship, you came to the right country. I wish you all the best. I don't believe this true 100% of the time, but the percentage is frightening high. I have personally experienced these ideas many times in this country.
Korean females think looks alone are what holds a relationship together. In Korea, this is more or less correct. I have talked to Korean males who believe not speaking the same language is not a problem in a marriage or a mate. So they import wives from poorer Asian countries as if it's buying a candy bar.
The clothes don't make the man or woman. Again, there is a time and place for everything.
ChickenHead – "I just worry that many positive aspects of Korea will change… from young people losing their manners with the influence of shameless Western culture heavy on freedom yet light on responsibility… to girls thinking it is fashionable to look like they just climbed out of bed…"
Zero – I truly appreciate your thoughts and ideas on all topics within this blog. I learn quite a bit through this mode of communication. it's definitely a good thing.
You drive me bat shit with this idea that Korea youth are losing their "manners" as a result of influence from the west. These actions are their choices. Where are mommy and daddy? Where's the discipline in telling the children this is not right? McDonalds – again, this is a choice. Korean parents and children could just as easily go to a traditional Korean restaurant, eat much better quality food and spend less money. For every disrespectful child in the U.S. or west, there are well mannered and respectful children.
8:51 am on September 5th, 2010 52
"I have talked to Korean males who believe not speaking the same language is not a problem in a marriage or a mate. So they import wives from poorer Asian countries as if it’s buying a candy bar."
I call B.S. on this. Unless you're constantly interacting with Korean farmers over 50 years old (and I doubt an ESL teacher be interacting with such people), I know you're lieing. No Korean guys unless they are extremely desperate (like those farmers), want to buy women from South East Asia and then marry them.
10:17 am on September 5th, 2010 53
Wow. THIS is interesting dialogue.
Here is some commentary which somewhat correlates with the discussion- enjoy!
http://www.fredoneverything.net/HookingUp.shtml
10:41 am on September 5th, 2010 54
Zilchy wrote:
I would suspect when people say “every Korean woman has/had plastic surgery”, it is not meant to be taken literally. This is a loose statement which reflects the idea that a substantial amount of said people undergo these procedures.
I'm late to the game and don't wish to wade through all the comments, but I'd like to address this one. I meet a lot of students from China, Japan, and other parts of East Asia, and I have been asked about this many times by people who believe literally that most young South Korean women have undergone plastic surgery and virtually all of the "beautiful" ones have.
The thing about these stats is that they also end up comparing apples and oranges. A substantial number of Japanese women come to Korea for plastic surgery, the same procedures Korean women get, but they would be counted in the total-over-population as Koreans getting surgery.
But the fact is that getting plastic surgery is a normative thing in South Korea, at least when it comes to the eyelid procedure. Frankly, although I prefer natural eyelids, I don't see all that much weird about it. In fact, the cultural counterpart in North America would be getting braces.
Getting braces is very much the same: It is invasive, painful, expensive, and is done in most cases purely for aesthetic reasons. A person who "needs" it but doesn't get it places themselves at a disadvantage in the workplace and in the romance market.
Braces aren't invasive, you may say. Oh, yeah? In addition to the pain, it often requires actual oral surgery. When I was a teenager, I foolishly submitted to having four perfectly healthy adult teeth removed so that the orthodontist could have an easier time "fixing" my teeth. I was actually put under general anesthesia for this procedure, which in my book makes it as dangerous as routine eyelid surgery.
10:55 am on September 5th, 2010 55
I go to a Korean mall or a store like Home Plus and what do I see…well-dressed ladies that are pleasant to the eye in every respect. Even mothers with several children that still find a way to make a pair jeans with high heels look very fashionable.
Then, I go on base to the BX or commissary and the contrast is clear. Grossly overweight women with eyebrow rings, nose rings etc wearing dumpy clothes and swearing like sailors.
Guess where I'd rather do my shopping.
There's nothing wrong with trying to look better or enhancing your image.
12:06 pm on September 5th, 2010 56
I don't get back to the USA very often but when I do, I am struck by the way things have changed since I left almost 2 decades ago. Indeed, going to a Korean store versus even the BX is an amazing contrast.
Do any of the fat loud American ladies REALLY think that the tattoos festooning their glurpy bodies make them MORE attractive? Ugh….
2:53 pm on September 5th, 2010 57
#50,
Clearly, you haven't been in South Korea for a long time.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,201…
4:46 pm on September 5th, 2010 58
BTW, Liz,
"Anyone who would say something like that would have to be both hung like a toddler…"
That comment is insensitive and inappropriate. Do you make fun of blind people, too?
As I am one of those men who are hung like a baby, I feel self-conscious about the stares and I feel very bad when my condition is noticed.
When I go into a locker room or public sauna, all eyes turn to me and the whispering starts.
I'm hung like a baby… so how can I not feel bad…
…for them!
'cause I'm the one with seven pounds and six ounces of swinging kack! Hung like a baby, baby!
So, stop making fun of those tiny-dick guys! That's just not nice.
4:47 pm on September 5th, 2010 59
BTW, Liz,
"Anyone who would say something like that would have to be both hung like a toddler…"
That comment is insensitive and inappropriate. Do you make fun of blind people, too?
As I am one of those men who are hung like a baby, I feel self-conscious about the stares and I feel very bad when my condition is noticed.
When I go into a locker room or public sauna, all eyes turn to me and the whispering starts.
I'm hung like a baby… so how can I not feel bad…
…for them!
'cause I'm the one with seven pounds and six ounces of swinging kack! Hung like a baby, baby!
So, stop making fun of those tiny-dink guys! That's just not nice.
4:57 pm on September 5th, 2010 60
Liz는 개라서 개소리를 많이 질러요. ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
7:52 pm on September 5th, 2010 61
#56 Treadlinker
I'm well aware of this phenomena and do not understand how it is contrary to anything I have previously stated?
#53 Kashibo
I appreciate your input, but have a few things I would like to add. Correct alignment of human teeth is much more than just plain aesthetics. Having properly aligned teeth makes cleaning and hygeine easier and more thorough. The lack of proper cleaning/hygeine can lead to serious conditions such as endocarditis and glumerulonephritis. I agree, dentistry can be invasive. I also underwent full anethesia for the removal of four impacted wisdom teeth. But, the removal of wisdom is almost absolutely necessary due to the fact that when these teeth breach the gums, they crowd all your other chicklets, causing many problems.
On the flip side, double eye lid surgery or any surgery on the face has the potential to be very costly. If a procedure is "botched" or there is an infection etc., the results can be devastating, considering it's your FACE. Especially your eyes. When you have a conversation, what do other people look into?
If I had to choose between a botched dental procedure or botched eye lid surgery, I would have to go with the dental procedure.
7:59 pm on September 5th, 2010 62
#57 ChickenHead states – ’cause I’m the one with seven pounds and six ounces of swinging kack! Hung like a baby, baby!
"Kack" – You are one beautiful human being. I'm in full hysterics right now! I think I just spit up a lung!
8:03 pm on September 5th, 2010 63
"If I had to choose between a botched dental procedure or botched eye lid surgery, I would have to go with the dental procedure."
Of course you would. You would of course want to further covet the beauty of your eyes, won't ya? Which is the precise point of having eyelid surgeries.
8:07 pm on September 5th, 2010 64
I mean of course, teeth formation and whatnot are helluva superficial compared to the eye shapes…
a less important thing to take care of, no?
8:27 pm on September 5th, 2010 65
Tom states – "I call B.S. on this. Unless you’re constantly interacting with Korean farmers over 50 years old (and I doubt an ESL teacher be interacting with such people), I know you’re lieing. No Korean guys unless they are extremely desperate (like those farmers), want to buy women from South East Asia and then marry them."
Tom, I have seen plenty of "mail order brides" in Busan and now in Deajeon, so it's not just the "farmers". The Korean males who have expressed this idea to me were NOT farmers, but "city folk". It's not bullshit, but a staunch reality. Why would I lie? I have zero vested interest in this topic.
A question for Tom – What the hell where your forefathers thinking when they decided to mass abort female fetuses? What did they think might happen in the future? As far as I know, there is a substancial gap in the numbers of K-males and K-females, which is why foriegn brides are entering Korea en masse.
You have a staunch patriarchal society and you decide to decrease the number of females in said society? Here's a WESTERN PHILOSOPHY for you! Gee wizz, the more females we have in our STAUNCH PATRIARCHAL society, the more "tang" for the men who have absolute control of the females in our PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY. Nice work guys, you just screwed yourselves!!
Now it's too late. Korea is slowing reverting to western cultural ideas. Korean women are gaining financial and social power and they're loving it. To top it off, their f*cking pissed about their restrictive and lowly past and they're making up for lost time. Your forefathers have just created 20-25 million Frankensteins.
Now you boys can feel free to sodomize each other. You deserve each other!!
It's also amazing to me the number of Korean females in their 30's who are not married, considering the number of potential Korea male suitors they can match with. What's going on in this country? Something is just not right!
8:47 pm on September 5th, 2010 66
"As far as I know, there is a substancial gap in the numbers of K-males and K-females, which is why foriegn brides are entering Korea en masse."
I think you should consider a few factors such as housing price that heavily affect whether or not a person would decide to form a family. Whoever told you that Korean men can't find enough wives because of distorted men:women ratio is just wanting to hide that they don't have enough money to woo women with big houses (though not necessarily their own fault; housing in Korea IS very and horrendously expensive, many times Japan's and certainly US's, compared to the citizens' average disposable income).
As for Korea's patriarch society, you are not going to understand its roots and nature until you have spent 2-3 years of your own life serving the ROK military, in which all Korean men are obliged to serve – with of course a few exemptions -, in which no Korean women are obliged to serve. Only men serve the military due to logistics reasons. It obviously created a side effect in the society, that of clear-cut gender inequality, but that's unavoidable, and expected, and can't be readily remedied under current strategic circumstances in the region. You may cease and desist on discussing a few things that you do not understand now.
9:06 pm on September 5th, 2010 67
#64 K
So, you are saying the fact that all Korean males have to serve for X number of years (X=4-5?) in the military is the reason for the "clear-cut" inequality?
The aborting of female fetuses in the past has not caused a considerable gap in the number of males/females in this country?
You are the only person I have ever heard state these two ideas. So I guess I must cease and desist, Captain. I apologize for my complete lack of knowledge in regard to my surroundings.
P.S. – Did you give Liz a hot dog?
9:06 pm on September 5th, 2010 68
Zilchy wrote:
I appreciate your input, but have a few things I would like to add. Correct alignment of human teeth is much more than just plain aesthetics.
Perhaps, but I think you will find the vast majority of people do it almost exclusively for aesthetic reasons.
And the fact is you can find a minor "medical" reason for getting eyelid surgery and other plastic surgery. I have a friend who actually had to get eyelid surgery because she would likely experience ingrown eyelashes if she hadn't.
Having properly aligned teeth makes cleaning and hygeine easier and more thorough.
I'm not so sure if it makes that much of a difference. In Japan, for example, where crooked teeth have long been considered appealing among women and where good dental hygiene is a virtue, I think you would have difficulty proving such a strong correlation that it requires orthodontics (not dentistry in the typical sense).
The lack of proper cleaning/hygeine can lead to serious conditions such as endocarditis and glumerulonephritis.
Ah, yes, I realize there are problems with bad dental hygiene, but you have made quite a leap between crooked teeth and getting such life-threatening disorders. It seems you are conflating them in order to make an argument of medical necessity for braces.
I agree, dentistry can be invasive.
Orthodontics, not dentistry. But more to the point, invasive and yet, in most cases, elective and aesthetic in nature.
I also underwent full anethesia for the removal of four impacted wisdom teeth. But, the removal of wisdom is almost absolutely necessary due to the fact that when these teeth breach the gums, they crowd all your other chicklets, causing many problems.
Again, you're jumping from one thing to another. I'm not talking about pulling wisdoms. Had I pulled my wisdoms earlier, I wouldn't have so many problems with a molar in the back due to impacting.
That is not really elective and certainly aesthetic. We're talking braces and all that entails, not pulling wisdoms.
If I had to choose between a botched dental procedure or botched eye lid surgery, I would have to go with the dental procedure.
Even if the botched dental procedure involved dying while under anesthesia? Because that does happen (more than it should).
Incidentally, on the subject of anesthesia and wisdoms, I believe most dental patients in Korea get their wisdoms pulled on two or more separate dates so that the pain and discomfort is spread out enough that general anesthesia is not used.
9:14 pm on September 5th, 2010 69
Zilchy wrote:
As far as I know, there is a substancial gap in the numbers of K-males and K-females, which is why foriegn brides are entering Korea en masse.
How much is substantial?
According to the CIA World Factbook the ratio is:
at birth: 1.071 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.67 male(s)/female
total population: 1 male(s)/female (2010 est.)
and that compares with the US at:
at birth: 1.048 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.75 male(s)/female
total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2010 est.)
and the world at:
at birth: 1.07 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.07 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.02 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.79 male(s)/female
total population: 1.01 male(s)/female (2009 est.)
So I don't know if male-to-female ratios of 1.07 and 1.04 represent a "substantial gap," at least not one that would explain so many "international marriages" (1 out or 7 or 8 in the country).
What's more at work is the number of women who wish to work and delay marriage or not get married at all. That would be a larger problem even if the secondary sex ratio in Korea were 105 boys to 100 girls.
9:59 pm on September 5th, 2010 70
"So, you are saying the fact that all Korean males have to serve for X number of years (X=4-5?) in the military is the reason for the “clear-cut” inequality?"
X = 2-3 years, for no pay (aside from a monthly $60~80 to use on PXs), no education, no career development, hardcore duties, hardcore living environment, little to no romantic relationship, and overall a substantial to complete lack of freedom in what you can do with your life for that 2-3 years. It IS a clear-cut inequality being exhibited right from the source itself of historical gender equality in Korea, exhibited in their proclaimed Constitutional duties of the men and women living in Korea as its citizens, in their roles as the hardworking guardians and the comfortably guarded in the Korean society, in their different niches in the job market as young adults, in different career and educational opportunity as young adults, and in many other aspects and circumstances. You'll be best able to understand the influence that military service has on gender inequality if, first and foremost, you experienced the environment yourself.
Your life as an American during your adolescence was a king's life compared to what Korean men who live today had to go through in the same stage of life. That's unless you were a failed being. It does often feel narcotic to speak condescendingly from atop a high imaginary throne with distorted sense of judgment about people who you mistakenly perceive to be displaying substandard behavior or characteristics (like, a 'patriarchal' society, as opposed to a largely hedonistic one). Note the keyword, 'distorted sense of judgment', nurtured by years of utter lack of experience about things that you wrongly believe you can attempt to talk about with proper intellectual intent.
10:37 pm on September 5th, 2010 71
#67 Kashibo
Either those statistics are incorrect, or popular belief is wildly incorrect. What is one to believe? Who's correct, who has there shit together? I can't tell you how many times I have heard and read the idea that there is a substancial gender gap in this country? If one hears something long enough and plenty enough, is it true, partially true?
@#66 Kashibo
I used the terms "dentist" or "dentistry" as general, "loose" terms. I will now use the terms "oral care" or "oral care provider", as general "broad spectrum" terms related to the human mouth in all it's complexities, thus trying to eliminate my "conflation".
Straight teeth = ease of cleanliness = an increase of overall oral hygiene = overall increase in health, regardless of any aesthetic intention. Having straight teeth leads to better "oral care" which is a damn good idea, all around. Any "oral care provider" will tell you this. A dentist, an orthodontist, an oral surgeon or Dr. Kevorkian!
Braces or removal of wisdom teeth will increase your overall oral health, thus increasing your overall health. This is far from just aesthetic.
Double eye lid surgery is in most cases purely aesthetic. You mentioned one friend who had to get this surgery due to ingrown eye lashes. How many people have to absolutely get eye lid surgery? My guess would be very few. This is a phenomena based on an "inferiority complex" or "mass conformity" or some other twisted psychological complex. The "caucaziod" female is the worlds' standard of beauty. Thus the reason for the "inferiority complex" and that need to feel "superior", like the white woman. This is sad and completely unnecessary. As I stated before, Korean women and other Asian women are beautiful without this bullshit. It's those features that sets them apart from "white" or "black" or "brown". They're selling out their "Asianess" for empty ideology.
You can twist it, bend it to justify whatever your personal means happens to be. That's your prorogative, have a blast.
11:36 pm on September 5th, 2010 72
"The “caucaziod” female is the worlds’ standard of beauty. "
I really had to laugh at this one.
So you're telling me white people want to look like black people when they deliberately toast themselves at the beach, and go to tanning salons to irradiate themselves in a microwave oven? Look how many white people do this. It's almost an obessession to look black!
11:39 pm on September 5th, 2010 73
It's obvious Zilchy has been reading too many Dave's ESL Cafe and other blogs about Korea by English teachers who think they know everything about Korea.
12:43 am on September 6th, 2010 74
Kushibo's stats are correct. In the 90s, Korea experienced a birth ratio gap that peaked at around 116 males to 100 females. The ratio has dropped to high normal at around 107 males to 100 females. People's perceptions of Korea's problem of aborting female fetuses seems to be stuck in the 90s, perhaps because there was a lot of media attention at the time, but little attention now to the improving ratio.
12:59 am on September 6th, 2010 75
3:53 am on September 6th, 2010 76
Zilchy, regarding the gender gap, the gap at birth was substantially larger than now for a while back in the 1990s. As Sonagi says, the return to "normal" has not received the same hype as the problem, such that it's easy to assume that the problem still exists if one is not paying attention to the issue.
At any rate, the point is that the once-substantial gender gap is a minor reason for Korean men seeking out-marriage. The Korean female trend toward late marriage or no marriage has eroded the number of potential marriage partners for men, combined with the trend of women to marry "up" and to marry away from certain professions (e.g., farming) and locations (e.g., rural Korea with less opportunity for fun and work), means that poorer Koreans have far fewer opportunities to marry a woman from Korea in a way that has little to do with the overall sex ratio.
4:50 am on September 6th, 2010 77
I remember years ago looking at my nephew's elementary school yearbook. I noticed that there were a lot more boys in his class than girls. So I compared his class with the other 6th grade classes at his school.
Without exception, each of the nine 6th grade classes had 40 students.
There were only two different ratios in the 6th grade classes at this school that year: either 23 boys/17 girls or 24 boys/16 girls.
That extrapolates to a 57.5/42/5 or 60/40 percentage rate.
Perhaps this was just an unusual case. Or maybe the ratios were higher in some areas (regional/rural vs large city/urban).
4:58 am on September 6th, 2010 78
As for my contention in #53 that getting eyelid surgery in Korea (and Japan) is the cultural counterpart of getting braces in North America, nothing you said negates that argument.
Your points about endocarditis and wisdom teeth notwithstanding, both procedures are invasive, painful, expensive, and done in most cases almost entirely for aesthetic reasons.
Few people spend thousands of dollars and endure untold hours of pain to get braces simply because they worry about inflammation of the membranes around the heart. They do it primarily because they feel aethetically inadequate and they fear being laughed at or dismissed or something along those lines. This is not far off from Korean women seeking eyelid surgery to make themselves (they believe) less plain, more positive looking, and generally more accepted in the dating and professional worlds. My cultural counterpart point holds.
I'm not so sure you really understood my point, though, as you threw removal of wisdom teeth into the mix, something which I made no claim or comparison with. Removal of wisdom teeth, which is done almost exclusively for dental health reasons with at most passing considerations toward aesthetics, is not the same as braces and certainly has nothing to do with my counterpart argument. (And let's not forget that KoKos also get their wisdoms pulled.)
Now I might agree that some are trying to look more "Western" when they get certain plastic surgeries, including the eyelid surgery (and not all of them will admit this, and some aren't even aware of it). But I submit that most are getting such plastic surgeries not really to look "Western" but to look less plain (a Korean definition of "plain").
I'm not defending eyelid surgery (I stated earlier that I prefer the natural look, whether it's single or double), but I do think bashing Korea and Koreans for doing such a dangerous and shallow thing is a bit wrong-headed. It's not really any more dangerous than the process of getting braces (if braces requires oral surgery) and no more shallow than that (which, your claims to the contrary notwithstanding, is done primarily for aesthetic purposes driven by social perceptions).
7:01 am on September 6th, 2010 79
The overwhelming majority of the eyelid surgeries that Asians get are for cosmetic reasons, one of the posters said that he knew someone who did it to avoid ingrown eyelashes, that is the first time I ever heard of that reason to get eyelid surgery. Braces are done primarily for cosmetic reasons but it is also done to prevent jaw pain from a misaligned upper & lower jaw. The kidney & cardiac problems that were mentioned are not the primary motivation I'm sure. A number of years ago I spent $5000 for braces for my youngest son. The orthodontist told me about the problem with the misaligned jaws. I consider it money well spent since his teeth look really great now, he gets a lot of women and I partially credit the braces with that.
7:03 am on September 6th, 2010 80
#76 Kashibo – "I’m not so sure you really understood my point, though, as you threw removal of wisdom teeth into the mix, something which I made no claim or comparison with. Removal of wisdom teeth, which is done almost exclusively for dental health reasons with at most passing considerations toward aesthetics, is not the same as braces and certainly has nothing to do with my counterpart argument. (And let’s not forget that KoKos also get their wisdoms pulled.)"
I did understand your point. In general you were trying to equate double eye lid surgery with braces. Thus an east and west comparison of aesthetic phenomena viewed as equal in invasiveness and potential danger. Both common and acceptable in each respective part of the world. My "wisdom teeth" example was stated in reflecting that "oral care" can be dangerous as can eye lid surgery. Both procedures imply "going under a knife". Braces, as an example is not invasive. Wisdom teeth usually need to be extracted to eliminate "over crowding", which can be painful and cause your other teeth to shift or look unappealing (if you have already had braces, this would be devastating), aesthetically speaking.
As far as my other comments were concerned. It's the underlying reasons for this phenomena. My comments were directed at what the articles' stated in the post itself.
The "inferiority complex", the idea that "looks are the most important aspect in a relationship or marriage", the reconstruction of the hyman, after the FACT. The enlargement of the male penis to show his boys "who's boss". To quote the infamous "ChickenHead", the Korean boys want 10 pounds of swinging "Kack". Slap my woman around with this baby!!
Unfortunately, this falls in line with your quote – "combined with the trend of women to marry “up” and to marry away from certain professions (e.g., farming) and locations (e.g., rural Korea with less opportunity for fun and work), means that poorer Koreans have far fewer opportunities to marry a woman from Korea in a way that has little to do with the overall sex ratio."
Where's the love? I read "marry up" as "where's the dough".
Kashibo, I don't know how busy you are, but please, take the time to read the articles in the post and if possible, read through the comments section. Aside from my supposed "Korea bashing", it's the ideology behind this phenomena that bothers me. The "surface show".
7:14 am on September 6th, 2010 81
Why do Americans pierce their ears and even tongues and noses and breasts? Why do Americans get tattoos on their bodies? What about botox treatment clinics you see in every corner streets of America? What makes eye fold procedures (along with the nose job) which make up the vast number of plastic surgery in Korea, any different?
7:23 am on September 6th, 2010 82
" the reconstruction of the hyman".
There's no evidence anywhere in figures or stats that says this is even a 1% popular surgery in Korea. This is one of those surgeries (along with media reports of mothers fixing their children's tongues to speak proper English) that generated high publicity a while back – taking strange odd ball minority of cases and turning it into a huge issue. Seriously, it's been overused by the Expats, you guys need to update your repertoire.
7:24 am on September 6th, 2010 83
#77 Tom Langley
I'm sure your son's straight teeth does aid him in his quests for the holy grails. Does your son have 10 pounds of swinging "kack"? Does he make a lot of "doe rae me"? If so, tell him to come to South Korea. The sky's the limit.
7:26 am on September 6th, 2010 84
Zilchy, why do you keep calling me "Kashibo"?
7:31 am on September 6th, 2010 85
#79 Tom states – "Why do Americans pierce their ears and even tongues and noses and breasts? Why do Americans get tattoos on their bodies? What about botox treatment clinics you see in every corner streets of America? What makes eye fold procedures (along with the nose job) which make up the vast number of plastic surgery in Korea, any different?"
The difference is WHY they get these procedures done. "inferiority complexes" etc. I know this is difficult for a person of Korean heritage to understand, but just try – Why an individual does something can be important.
7:33 am on September 6th, 2010 86
#83, so right, those Americans are doing it for inferiority complex.
7:40 am on September 6th, 2010 87
Tom Langley wrote:
The overwhelming majority of the eyelid surgeries that Asians get are for cosmetic reasons, one of the posters said that he knew someone who did it to avoid ingrown eyelashes, that is the first time I ever heard of that reason to get eyelid surgery.
It is a reason, but it is certainly a reason in a minority of cases. It was a legitimate reason, in fact, but I only cited it to counter that, just as Zilchy could come up with a medical reason (preventing endocarditis) for getting a procedure the vast majority do for aesthetic reasons, there are legitimate medical reasons even for the eyelid surgery (as there are for some kinds of rhinoplasty and even breast enhancement).
But the fact remains it is primarily for aesthetic reasons.
Braces are done primarily for cosmetic reasons but it is also done to prevent jaw pain from a misaligned upper & lower jaw. The kidney & cardiac problems that were mentioned are not the primary motivation I’m sure.
You and I agree here. The exceptional reasons do not undermine my point about getting braces and getting eyelid surgery being cultural counterparts that are invasive, expensive, painful, and primarily motivated by cultural norms.
While I certainly have heard of people who had to get braces to prevent pain like you described, among the dozens of people I knew personally who got braces when I was a kid, none were like that. All were done for aesthetic purposes, including my own, my sister's, my cousins', and my friends'.
Zilchy wrote:
My “wisdom teeth” example was stated in reflecting that “oral care” can be dangerous as can eye lid surgery. Both procedures imply “going under a knife”. Braces, as an example is not invasive.
I think you may have missed my earlier comment about the invasiveness of getting braces:
Braces aren’t invasive, you may say. Oh, yeah? In addition to the pain, it often requires actual oral surgery. When I was a teenager, I foolishly submitted to having four perfectly healthy adult teeth removed so that the orthodontist could have an easier time “fixing” my teeth. I was actually put under general anesthesia for this procedure, which in my book makes it as dangerous as routine eyelid surgery.
Indeed, not everybody ends up going to an oral surgeon for tooth removal prior to getting braces, but many do (it's the fourth of eight reasons listed in the Wikipedia article on tooth extraction). Thus, oral surgery as part of getting braces is invasive and dangerous, as invasive and dangerous as getting one's wisdoms pulled, but unlike the medically recommended wisdom tooth removal (which in many cases is a prophylactic procedure), it is elective and done almost exclusively for aesthetic/cosmetic purposes.
7:50 am on September 6th, 2010 88
Zilchy wrote:
The difference is WHY they get these procedures done. “inferiority complexes” etc. I know this is difficult for a person of Korean heritage to understand, but just try – Why an individual does something can be important.
Zilchy, for many people seeking plastic surgery, I agree that feelings of inferiority are the predominant factor.
However, I am making the point that perceptions of eyelid surgery in particular (and right now I would say only eyelid surgery) have changed so much in, say, the past ten or fifteen years that getting that procedure has crossed from being rare to being normative (i.e., accepted as or establishing something considered normal), in much the same way that getting braces is normative in the US.
And this is important because, take eyelid surgery out of the equation, subtract the people who are coming to Korea to get cheap but quality plastic surgery, and you have a very different picture. Rhinoplasty is far less common, as is breast enhancement, to the point that there's really not much of an outstanding propensity toward serious plastic surgery at all.
But I can say the same thing about the US as well. I grew up in California, spending half my childhood in Orange County, and now live in Hawaii. Among the large circle of twenty-, thirty-, and fortysomethings I know, the vast, vast, vast, vast majority have not gone under the knife. Some would like to but are afraid or can't afford it, some mock or look down on those who do it, some are perfectly happy with the way they are, etc. Yet with the stats showing 1 of 200 women getting plastic surgery every year, there's a stereotype of boob jobs galore. Maybe we watch too much TV and read too many tabloid mags off- or on-line.
8:15 am on September 6th, 2010 89
#86, spot on.
Take out the eye surgery phenomenon, and the plastic surgery rate goes down by at least 60%. Then all of a sudden we get a different picture.
8:38 am on September 6th, 2010 90
# 82 – kUshibo! Sorry about that, nothing personal. For some reason, the "ka" pronounciation sounds more natural to me than the "ku". Possibly due to Japanese influence?
I know your background. I visit your blog from time to time. I'm actually greatful that you and other individuals' maintain blogs such as these. It keeps "waygoogin" informed on the in's and out's of Korea. What's true and false, is another matter.
In all honesty, I see very little problem with undergoing "cosmetic" or "plastic" surgery, as long as it's done for "concrete" reasons. I realize I may have opened a fresh can of worms in using the term "concrete", but undergoing these procedures to take of a few years or enhancing a particular feature is different from confroming to the norm sans any thought or feeling inferior.
As human beings. we all want to look good. I'm no different.
Just because something is common and accepted, doesn't mean it's valid and meaningful. I appreciate your time and thoughts. This is definitely something to mull over.
10:34 am on September 6th, 2010 91
#45 "Plastic surgery cannot make a miracle out of an ugly person into a beautiful person."
Possibly not, but it can turn an average looking person into an attractive one.
10:44 am on September 6th, 2010 92
Zilchy 78, misspelling hymen is as bad as misspelling Kushibo. Maybe worse, because at least Kushibo can correct you.
11:04 am on September 6th, 2010 93
*Cough*
This argument still going? Then I'll throw in my 20 wons worth.
I'm with CH here. While I feel Koreans spend entirely too much time / concern on their appearance, the consequence of not doing that is too dreadful to imagine. I refuse to date / marry an American girl because I couldn't stand it if one day she just up and decided to let herself go and sit on the couch and get lazy / fat. All with the line "you should love me for who I am". I refuse to be one of those guys who walks around with a 300 lb cow that has three little rug-rats in tow. Chained to the behemoth for all time because she knows I wouldn't want to leave the kids.
Men desire hyper-feminized sexually attractive women. This isn't a social issue, its not up for debate, its not some recent development, its been around since we were living in caves using the "hit her on head" method. Its a unequivocal law that men will ~always~ be physically attracted to the sexualized female. Koreans just take this to an extreme, for which I've become rather happy about. Western women used to do these exact same things, until it became unamerican for a man to desire a women to dress nice.
What lots of people are forgetting is that the double-eye-lid surgery isn't even considered cosmetic surgery by most Koreans and the surveys reflect this. Cosmetic surgery usually refers to chin / cheekbone / nose work or breast implants. The more extreme cosmetic surgery's are the removal of certain muscles from the thigh / calf or upper arm to make the legs / arms look slimmer. That surgery has quite a bit of risk involved though and is very expensive. As men we have absolutely no right to comment on women getting surgery (we can blast the guys though). They do it for their own reasons, often its more to look better to other women (competition) then for us. And if a women wants to make herself feel better, I say let her do it, just don't ask / force her to do it.
And yes, beauty is an external factor. When you meet someone of the opposite sex you've already mentally sized them up and filed them into various categories in approx 30s. There is no way your going to ~understand~ any internal qualities in that time frame. This also isn't some social issue, its the result of thousands of years of evolution for mate selection.
1:30 pm on September 6th, 2010 94
"get lazy / fat. All with the line “you should love me for who I am”. I refuse to be one of those guys who walks around with a 300 lb cow that has three little rug-rats in tow. Chained to the behemoth for all time because she knows I wouldn’t want to leave the kids."
—-
you know what's even more funny? you guys should look in the mirror once in a while.. I mean you guys aren't exactly slim either. Slamming your own opposite sex when you aren't any better if not worse..
… what should I say…hmm.. 
3:09 pm on September 6th, 2010 95
Zilchy #81 I don't know what my youngest son(he's 20) has downstairs since I haven't seen him naked since he was a small child but hopefully size in that area is genetic, lol. Although he is half Asian(Cambodian) he doesn't care for Asian women, he likes White women. I told him all my 'war stories' about Korea. One of my other sons is half Korean, he's 26 but he also likes White women as does my 22 year old half Cambodian son. I hate to say it but it's true, my half Korean son is the spitting image of Kim Jong Il except his skin color is lighter & he doesn't have the same hairstyle.
4:20 pm on September 6th, 2010 96
Tom, some of the posters here might be overweight. With a little diet and exercise they can lose the weight.
You, however are a racist ass**** with nothing worthwile to add to any discussion. Perhaps with years of counselling you might progress from Troll to toad.
6:10 am on September 7th, 2010 97
#90 Glans – "Zilchy 78, misspelling hymen is as bad as misspelling Kushibo. Maybe worse, because at least Kushibo can correct you."
Damn, I thought "hyman" was singular and "hymen", plural. I stand corrected again.
10:38 am on September 7th, 2010 98
You guys got Tom all wrong. He's not even Korean. He's just some white guy somewhere pretending to be a racist Korean prick for no other reason then to troll us and stir up sh!t. Stop feeding him and he'll go away eventually, or he'll get so bad that the mods will perma-bad him. I don't even read his posts anymore, just go right past them.
11:47 am on September 7th, 2010 99
In keeping with the feminist tradition of spelling "women" as "womyn" so that the word "men" is not included, I propose the alternative spelling of "hymen" should be "hymyn".
Further, "pop" is slang for father, and a neutered spelling of "bawb" should be used.
An example of this much more gender-friendly English would be…
"The funking baztard bawbed my hymyn."
As speakers of English, it is all of our duties to improve the language whenever possible.
1:21 pm on September 7th, 2010 100
"You guys got Tom all wrong. He’s not even Korean. He’s just some white guy somewhere pretending to be a racist Korean prick for no other reason then to troll us and stir up sh!t."
Oh my god, you are so right. I looked in the mirror and what do I see? A three hundred pound white guy staring right back.
4:11 pm on September 7th, 2010 101
"I looked in the mirror and what do I see? A three hundred pound white guy staring right back. "
Better to see it in the mirror than over your shoulder as you reach for the dropped soap.
4:36 pm on September 7th, 2010 102
That 300 white guy that Tom sees in the mirror is his English teacher standing behind him – getting ready to bugger Tom's arse.
4:37 pm on September 7th, 2010 103
ZILchy go back to eslcafe you LBH. It's time to prepare another english class.
4:37 pm on September 7th, 2010 104
The 300 pound…
4:40 pm on September 7th, 2010 105
That 300 white guy that Tom sees in the mirror is his English teacher standing behind him – getting ready to bugger Tom’s arse.
Not to single out any one individual, but can we not keep deteriorating this thread?
I was having a nice back-and-forth with Zilchy I'd hoped to link to in a future post, but I'd rather my dear mother not wander into an extraneous and highly irrelevant discussion about Tom being buggered in an incarceration facility.
Thank you.
4:41 pm on September 7th, 2010 106
Make it 300 white guys instead. Ready to annihilate Tom's ass.
4:41 pm on September 7th, 2010 107
Too late, Kushibo. Soz.
4:50 pm on September 7th, 2010 108
K, you are not Korean.
4:54 pm on September 7th, 2010 109
Wrong thread, Orbit. And you got 300 white guys behind you too.
7:38 pm on September 7th, 2010 110
Q: What has been used by more than 300 white guys… makes an appearance on this site with the purpose to irritate… and has slant eyes?
A: Italics
9:12 pm on September 7th, 2010 111
K, you will never be Korean.
9:18 pm on September 7th, 2010 112
Because 300 white guys trying to get a piece of you are blocking my way.
10:29 pm on September 7th, 2010 113
K, you will die a painful death. And you will never be Korean.
11:08 pm on September 7th, 2010 114
Your kack lost its orbit just now, Orbit. One of the 300 squeezed it too much. I think you need one of those cosmetic surgeons to stitch it back.
11:17 pm on September 7th, 2010 115
K, you will never ever be Korean.
11:53 pm on September 7th, 2010 116
Bad news from the surgeon, Orbit. You will never stitch your kack back.
하지만 넘 걱정하지마셈. 엉덩이에 새로운거 박아줄 사람들은 얼마든지 있으니까요. ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
12:53 am on September 8th, 2010 117
Korea bashers only need an excuse to bash Korea all day long, and treads like this are just what they asked for to God, but honestly I’m loving this tread because it’s very entertaining.
I have a question to commentator here: what about the phimosis operation? Could it be considered a cosmetic operation? Koreans do it a lot.
4:50 am on September 8th, 2010 118
All this talk about buggery is sounding like the military when and if DADT is repealed.
7:01 am on September 8th, 2010 119
#103 Orbit – "ZILchy go back to eslcafe you LBH. It’s time to prepare another english class."
What is an LBH? Is it Korean code for a non-Korean. Thus, further justifying the Korean inferiority complex masking itself as a superiority complex.
#113 Orbit – "K, you will die a painful death. And you will never be Korean."
#115 Orbit – "K, you will never ever be Korean."
Why do Koreans think that people who live in Korea and learn the language, want to BE KOREAN? Are Koreans that self-delusional? Is the "woori nara" and "minjoke" halarity that powerful? See the above statement.
#117 Dr.Yu – "I have a question to commentator here: what about the phimosis operation? Could it be considered a cosmetic operation? Koreans do it a lot."
My guess would be that these procedures would not be considered "cosmetic", due to the idea that in normal circumstances, the male genitilia are not visible on a constant basis. Now, this is Korea, so anything is possible.
#105 KUSHIBO,
Thanks for the thoughts. This topic could get very interesting and branch out into many other areas.
To ChickenHead,
7lbs., 6oz, "kack"-a-doodle-doooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
2:05 pm on September 8th, 2010 120
K, your Korean is 'weird'. You are not Korean.
2:06 pm on September 8th, 2010 121
#119 LBH – Loser Back Home
2:13 pm on September 8th, 2010 122
한국어 넘 복잡하게 하면 여기 외국인들이 못 알아들을것 같아서 좀 쉽게 말하는건데 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 전 제가 하는 말들을 다른사람들이 이해하기를 원하거든요? 제가 당신이 kaesaeki같다고 말할때 다른사람이 그렇다고 알아주었으면 좋겠음. ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
3:45 pm on September 8th, 2010 123
Q: Who is loud and irritating, is very familiar to all of us, has been used by more than 300 guys and rhymes with "rom"?
A: Yer mom.
3:56 pm on September 8th, 2010 124
The States may have a lot of 300lb white guys but Korean men look like fags…
8:36 pm on September 8th, 2010 125
#121 – Orbit "#119 LBH – Loser Back Home"
Is this the best you can do? I was hoping for something more original, but then I remembered you are Korean, you have to conform. Try taking yourself out of your conformist "comfort zone" and give me a good one! Something with pizazz. Something that shows you actually have a set!
4:50 am on September 10th, 2010 126
I have such a great punchline… but it came to me at once in everything from Ghazal to Sijo… here is a sample in more familiar forms.
…a limerick for ye lads and lasses…
His butt cheeks were certainly partin'
300 men left his bunghole a-smartin'.
He shivered with fear,
as they yelled in his ear,
"We… are… SPARTANS!"
…and now for some relaxing haiku…
gay posts on ROK Drop
three hundred men from behind
they must be Spartans
…heroic couplet in iambic pentameter…
Oh, he never again could be fartin'
Once buggered by three hundred Spartans
…terza rima…
Of the three hundred Spartans we've talked
And it's good if this topic expired
Perhaps all this smut will be dropped
Or maybe you have been inspired
Write your poem, no talent required
…dare I go on?
9:11 am on September 10th, 2010 127
For ChickenHead:
The Minjoke asses
Thow never cease
Reality a blur
Expanding thow crease
Our history! A sigh
The truth unknown
Fighting! We cry
Thow still all alone
The ghost, our foe
Large, not lost
Perfection our goal
At any cost
Meaning we seek
Lost in the norm
Hangook the meek
Every drop in a storm
Love,
Zero