By I have always said that the South Korean army can play a more active roll in global peacekeeping missions considering the size and professionalism of the force and it appears that President Lee Myung-bak is thinking the same thing:
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak said Tuesday his military will try to play a bigger role in global security and peace as part of efforts to repay the international community for its help in the fight against the North Korean invasion six decades ago.
“The military of the Republic of Korea should further develop into ‘international armed forces’ to contribute to world security and peace,” Lee said in a televised speech to commemorate the recapturing of Seoul from North Korea by U.N. allied forces on Sept. 28, 1950.
Shortly after the outbreak of the war on June 25 of that year, 21 nations dispatched troops to help the South under the flag of the U.N., and five others sent medical aid units. But the conflict ended in 1953 in a truce, not a formal peace treaty, effectively leaving the two Koreas still at war.
Tuesday’s ceremony also celebrated the founding anniversary of the South’s 655,000-strong military that falls later this week.
The president pointed out that despite the end of the Cold War, global peace is endangered by nuclear proliferation, terrorism and other new types of threats.
“Now, our troops will actively cooperate with the international community, if necessary, for world security and peace,” Lee said. South Korea has troops deployed in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Somalia and Haiti to assist in their reconstruction efforts. [Yonhap]
For anyone that has worked with UN peacekeepers, I would think you would agree that the ROK Army could not only provide needed man power, but competent leadership as well.
3:06 pm on October 1st, 2010 1
In light of the UK cutting its military budget, I was just saying this very thing.
5:50 pm on October 1st, 2010 2
Kushibo 1, where did you get the idea that Ireland is an ally? They rebelled against England during WW I, they stayed neutral in WW II, and they've never participated in our post-1945 adventures. Unless your talking about Northern Ireland, which is still part of the UK.
6:19 pm on October 1st, 2010 3
A short glance at the map would tell the onlooker that Korea's longstanding global military role is that it's one of the first, and strongest, military deterrence against potential world aggressors (I won't point fingers at any country in particular, but the 'big red' seems to be a likely candidate). There are very few countries in the world who want to serve as the sentry guard against a superpower country who exhibits a high level of militarization; not even Japan wants to do that, if it's small relative military budget is any indication. Even if Korea took that responsibility of a meatbag for world peace against its will, the country and its people are still doing their globally important roles faithfully in a dedicated manner, whether they realize it or not.
I'm still waiting for the day Japan will reinstate years of conscription and start sending 300,000 soldiers abroad to fight for world peace. Other world powers such as France and Germany should do the same, because I think they owe the rest of the world their prosperity and peaceful existence as much as Korea does. World peace is not attained by strategically irrelevant nuclear arsenals or trillion dollars of debt in bank accounts; get boots on the ground and start hauling humanity and progress to people who need them, or die trying. 50,000 pairs of boots should be enough for the first wave. Make it six waves.
12:36 am on October 2nd, 2010 4
Girl Scouts could provide better leadership than most UN Peacekeeping Forces usually have. After Somalia, I'd rather go it alone than have the UN with me.
1:15 am on October 2nd, 2010 5
The UN needs a professional standing Army, sort of a 911 force, built on the standards of a MEF…perhaps 15,000 troops with all the necessary support folks that can respond quickly to a Rwanda or Balkans or a Darfur.
The core would be Chinese …The more homogeneous the force the better.
Its time, if the 'world" is serious about peacekeeping, that the rest of the world step up and do their part….
4:48 am on October 2nd, 2010 6
Glans wrote:
Kushibo 1, where did you get the idea that Ireland is an ally?
I was under the impression that they participated heavily in PKO, but I could be wrong.
At any rate, I referred to them "to a lesser extent," and their inclusion or (if I was wrong) exclusion has no real bearing on my other points.
8:24 am on October 2nd, 2010 7
Kushibo 6, this may surprise you, but I have no idea what PKO is.
10:35 am on October 2nd, 2010 8
PKO – Peace Keeping Operations?
11:00 am on October 2nd, 2010 9
K: you are so wrong when you say "Korea’s longstanding global military role is that it’s one of the first, and strongest, military deterrence against potential world aggressors".
Korea's role is to act as a land base for U.S. forces to deter the big red. Korea has never historically taken care of itself, much less deterred any outsiders from marching right in whenever they want.
11:39 am on October 2nd, 2010 10
The territory of Korea is the first line of defense against the 'big reds', whether the Korean people like it or not. They'll man that line of defense until the end of their days, along with their allies Japan and the US, who remain the second and final line of defense (as well as one of the strongest) against those who I may specify as 'world aggressors'.
What's wrong with my statement now?
11:51 am on October 2nd, 2010 11
And,
"Korea has never historically taken care of itself, much less deterred any outsiders from marching right in whenever they want."
Are you referring to those thousands of years of Korea's wars against the ancient big red and keeping Japan safe (albeit inadvertently) from the big red's territorial expansion? During those times the united Korea fended off the big red quite well on its own, without help from many allies. Korea can do that again, though this time it will do so with allies who hopefully will not backstab Korea when the time of peace and individual prosperity finally arrives.
4:03 pm on October 2nd, 2010 12
You are absolutely correct about the thousand years they were independent. That has little relevance on the weenies that have occupied the country in the last 200 years.
As far as them manning the line of defense, it reminds me of the Somali's that did the same thing. When U.S. helicopters would fly over they would see a circle of Somali women and children creating a human shield around a heavy machine gun. If they ran, the Somali militant would shoot them. if they didn't run, then the U.S. aircraft would shoot them. So yes, koreans are manning the line in the exact same way. And the kicker: the koreans KNOW this. For all of the blustering about their independence, they have NOT voted the U.S. out! So, coreans, please listen: Either vote the U.S. out or STFU about the U.S. being in your country.
4:46 pm on October 2nd, 2010 13
Either vote the U.S. out or STFU about the U.S. being in your country.
FYI, it's the pretty much just the chinboistas whining about the US military presence in South Korea. And the North Koreans. And a few Americans who seem to have a chip on their shoulder about Korea for some reason.
4:47 pm on October 2nd, 2010 14
Glans wrote:
Kushibo 6, this may surprise you, but I have no idea what PKO is.
Peacekeeping operations. A common term in the Korean media.
혹시… 북에서?
5:27 pm on October 2nd, 2010 15
"If they ran, the Somali militant would shoot them. if they didn’t run, then the U.S. aircraft would shoot them. So yes, koreans are manning the line in the exact same way."
You are neglecting a crucial difference between the two.
The Somali women and children in your case will turn up dead either way for a useless purpose that will benefit no one who isn't a destabilizing agent himself. Koreans, on the other hand, will end up benefiting the national interests of so many countries in the world with the sacrifices they would make, if ever they had to, regardless of their motive or choice. Korea's role in maintaining global security – as opposed to the roles of Somali women and children – is already extensive, expressive, effective, and existential. You can stop comparing Korea with the US who were grown as apples and oranges during their childhood now and begin constructing your newfound objection about why some countries like Japan, France, and Germany do so little to help stabilize the world with effective military force, compared to Korea, when they owe the US – the modern guardian and benevolent representative of the world – their rise as great nations as much as Korea does. you surely should have more to complain about the latter three than about Korea when it comes to sitting tight on their fat arses or their insane shopping spree of hedonism seemingly oblivious to what made them a great nation, and what they need to do to pay back the source.
Again, tell me when the Japanese, French, Germans, or even the British finally decide to march in groups of hundred thousands to do a mission that is not theirs, willfully detaching themselves from the excess comforts of their french fries and porn videos, as a pay back to the one who saved their country. I think that savior has a lot to gain from additional 300,000 soldiers fighting in Afghanistan for the next decade side by side with its own soldiers, and it will be very grateful for their contribution, its previous role in their national survival notwithstanding.
9:54 pm on October 2nd, 2010 16
"For all of the blustering about their independence, they have NOT voted the U.S. out! So, coreans, please listen: Either vote the U.S. out or STFU about the U.S. being in your country."
And this goes to you too. For all the blustering about Americans getting out of Korea, they have not yet done so! So Americans, please listen: either vote the US out of Korea or STFU about the U.S getting out if you're not really going to carry through with it! Then we can stop listening to each other's bitchings all the time!
10:00 pm on October 2nd, 2010 17
" And a few Americans who seem to have a chip on their shoulder about Korea for some reason."
I say kick them out of South Korea. They're just using Korea to play super cop against China and Russia. They want to remain important and relevant in this region where they are increasingly becoming unimportant and irrelevant. They should worry about their own economy which is bankrupt with Chinese becoming their bosses.
GTFO@!
8:37 am on October 3rd, 2010 18
Why would the U.S. leave? This is a playland where they can screw Korea and the rest of Asia. The U.S. doesn't leave, they like having this little colony that they control and use as they need to.
8:40 am on October 3rd, 2010 19
K, I wouldn't throw the Britons in with France, Germany, and Japan. The Brits have always done more than their part. As far as the other 3, 2 were the bad guys during the wars so do we really want them in charge? And France could whip the girl scouts.
The reason I don't talk about them is because this is the "ROK Drop", not the "EURO Drop".
11:23 am on October 3rd, 2010 20
When I see 300,000 Brits having willingly marched side by side against the US for the collective gain of the modern western world in wars of their savior, fighting on the frontline in what is known as one of world's deadliest combat zone, I'll believe your 'done more than their part'.
The only thing Brits can do better to secure the world than Korea ON THEIR OWN (without cooperation with the US) is that they can blackmail state actors using their exclusive strategic assets such as nuclear weapons and UN veto power, neither of which Korea possesses. They almost completely lack autonomy in global security affairs in terms of other means. I can't see a time when the Brits conducted a war of its own accord for global security in cases where the US did not already take the leadership. And, when it comes to cooperating with the US in those global security affairs, I believe that Korea, then a less mature nation in economic, political, and military stability and power than most countries in the world during the times it joined US's peacekeeping efforts, still obliged the US far more than supposed major powers like the Brits did, despite the fact that the United Kingdom would likely have fallen to its aggressors in WWII had the US not been there to share their burden of war, just as South Korea would have fallen had the US not come to their aid, owing the US their deliverance as much as Korea does in modern history. Brits did do some of their share of the burden for the sake of world peace compared to many countries, but in my opinion, it still doesn't come close to their supposed power as a 'world leader' and the responsibility that comes with it. If Brits claim their country is one of the world leaders, why not try to do more for the sake of the world than what a small divided country with half their GDP can do? And that goes the same for France.
We don't necessarily need Japan and Germany in charge as leaders for world peace. However they can, and probably should, provide active large-scale support to the US that the US would find useful, since it's apparent now that the US is already having a lot of difficulty fulfilling its worldwide responsibilities alone. So far Korea is the one who I'll claim most successfully payed in kind to the US for the military protection and mercy it provided and showed to countries that it rescued and defeated, given its role in the Vietnam War, a war in which no NATO country was willing to sacrifice themselves and fight to the degree that US, South Vietnamese, and South Korean forces fought to protect democracy and capitalism. Korea's Middle Eastern deployments were less glamorous, but that's still better than what political stunts some 'world leaders' take out from beneath their smelly table. Many countries in the world are capable of doing as much as or do more than Korea for the sake of world peace given their greater national power and resource endowment, but they aren't making use of those capability. I find that perpetual state of global affairs disheartening.
3:44 pm on October 3rd, 2010 21
The Brits won WWI and II, the Koreans were under 40 years of occupation. So yes, the Brits did their part.
I must have missed something. Where did Korea send 300,000 people?
3:46 pm on October 3rd, 2010 22
Marchus Ambrose wrote:
I must have missed something. Where did Korea send 300,000 people?
Vietnam. That includes about five thousand dead and eleven thousand injured.
4:13 pm on October 3rd, 2010 23
#21
The brits didn't win WW2. Are you kidding? They played a part in winning, BUT they did NOT win it.
4:29 pm on October 3rd, 2010 24
#21 Marcus
And I don't think UK sent any combat troops to Vietnam to help out US. So sadly, you can't claim UK held off North Vietnam out of South.
Why don't ya go and read on the internet about ROK armed forces in Vietnam conflict before you start comparing ROK armed forces and Somali women/children.
4:48 pm on October 3rd, 2010 25
I did not EVER claim the Brits were in Vietnam. And you can cut the smarmy attitude about internet. I am very well aware of the ROKs in Vietnam, in fact I've spoken to U.S. and ROK veterans of that war. The ROK special forces were well respected.
50,000 ROKs served in Vietnam at a time. I was curious about your quote of "When I see 300,000 Brits having willingly marched side by side….". There were NOT 300,000 ROKs marching side by side. There were 300,000 participants, and they were just as willing as the Americans that were conscripted.
The whole point, that you corea lovers are missing, is that I don't buy them being this world savior and sacrificing to the good. The Brits have done far more than coreans, french, germans, and most other nations. While they may not have won WWII, they certainly were the major sustaining part for a long time.
4:53 pm on October 3rd, 2010 26
and they were just as willing as the Americans that were conscripted
That's an awfully bold assumption to make about the motivations of the commie-hating ROK soldiers who volunteered to fight in Vietnam from someone who doesn't seem to have been aware of their existence an hour or so ago.
5:03 pm on October 3rd, 2010 27
Well, I have been aware of their existence for a long time. What I didn't get was the 300,000 reference where they were "marching side by side".
5:09 pm on October 3rd, 2010 28
For your gratification Kushibo: I was in Korea in the 80s and 90s. That was the first time I met a man who was the body guard for one of the KCIA chiefs. Koreans don't call it the KCIA, it's the National Security Service or something like that. He used to tell me about being in Vietnam, including when he and his buddies got jumped by the Vietcong while they were downtown in Saigon on R&R. He got a knife in his skull from that one.
So, as I said, I'm very well aware of the ROKs in Vietnam, probably before you were born. When you get some real life experience, and talk to the actual people that have been places, you won't need google and the internet for your facts.
5:18 pm on October 3rd, 2010 29
#25
Marcus, I didn't say you claimed UK sent troops to Vietnam conflict. But if you get confused about ROK having rotated 300,000 combat troops through Vietnam WHILE bashing Korea for NOT having done enough or can't do more for the good other nations, who knows you may actually have thought UK played a big role in helping US in vietnam conflict.
'Smarmy attitude'? I guess you meant smarty attitude. Hmm, strange to hear that from you who's so quick to compare ROK armed forces to Somali men/women (used as human shields). If that's not smarty attitude or downright distasteful, I don't know what is…
One more thing about ROK forces in Vietnam. South Korean Special Forces were NOT respected. In fact they were FEARED by Vietcong and NVA. Let me correct one more thing. All South Korean combat forces were FEARED by enemies, NOT just the Special Forces of South Korea.
I dug up a little something you may want to read.
http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/ROKVIetnam/RO…
Part on Vietcong and NVA being ordered to avoid ROK forces at all cost.
"That said, nearly all will agree that the story of the ROK military in Vietnam resides in its very high kill ratio of enemy killed to Koreans lost and the stark fear these courageous war fighters brought to the hearts of the enemy. Captured enemy documents reflect that the enemy worked hard to avoid the Koreans, and were told to stay away from them unless they were sure of victory. You will see victory against the ROKs in Vietnam could never be assured, even when the ROKs were vastly outnumbered and engaged in hand-to-hand combat. "
Please spend some time reading that site before replying. And I don't mean it in a mean/smarty way.
7:45 pm on October 3rd, 2010 30
Marcus Ambrose. All ROK troops who went to Vietnam were volunteers. Park strictly ordered the military to pick only the most skilled and most willing volunteers for deployment to Vietnam, to assist the Allied forces with the deadliest and most highly motivated killing machines Korea could provide. The end result of the war is the very testament to that segregation effort; by the war's end, the all-volunteer Spartan ROK troops recorded kill-death ratio that was the highest among all troops that participated in the Vietnam War. And the Korean volunteers who were sent there in fight-to-death mode still received comparatively less compensations for their legendary service than 'conscripts' of other countries did (and the volunteers already understood that fact before they decided to fight the war), except the South Vietnamese who lost their country.
And Marcus Ambrose, you must remember that Korea had implemented the same rotation policy for its troops as the US in the Vietnam War. When there were 50,000 Korean troops in Vietnam War at any given time, the US had 80,000 alongside them. And don't forget to remind yourself either that the Korean population at that time was 1/10 of the US population, and far less the financial prosperity. Per capita-wise Korea's troop contribution to Vietnam War is much more remarkable than what initially meets the eye.
And so far, none of UK's VOLUNTARY military assistance to the US is on par with what VOLUNTARY military assistance Korea provided to the US. In no instances of joint UK-US warfighting in post-WWII history did a UK force demonstrate the kind of combat effectiveness that Korean forces did in the Vietnam War, either due to political cowardice and bad bureaucracy, or treacherous apathy for the toils of the one who saved the country, or just pure strategic incompetence. One has to wonder where the hell the UK had run off to with its tails nowhere to be seen while the US was doing its very best to save Vietnam from destruction and disguised tyranny, to preserve the righteous ideals of democracy, capitalism, human rights, and liberty that UK herself was forever self-committed to uphold. You are free to choose one explanation for yourself for that among those three aforementioned reasons.
Let's us wait and see if the soldiers of the United Kingdom who are deployed in the Middle East today can eventually catch up to the reputation of Somali women and children first, and then those of the ROK Forces-Vietnam next. THEN can we talk of the UK as a rightful and exceptional stakeholder of global security in ways countries like Korea cannot be, one who does not shame its self-entitlement as a 'great power'.
Btw, I think Korea should use the abbreviation UK for itself someday too, given the inevitability and the chance. And I hope the new Korea then will continue to remain relevant to the world in more than just the name. I'm sure the US will have prepared some great designs to pull its alliance with the new Korea to the next level by then, defending the rest of the world against the last remaining bastion of… an unacceptable political ideology. The new UK will, hopefully, serve humanity in ways the previous one could not.
9:10 pm on October 3rd, 2010 31
I can't understand why Korea should lean towards the US, when China is now far more important in terms of trade with the ROK, causing Chinese to get a hate on Korea. Why provoke an anti Korean sentiment with your largest trade partner? Furthermore, reading people like Marcus Ambrose, the Americans don't think much of Korea, at least not much more than just another band of Somali pirates and savages with bones through their noses.
http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/10/1…
9:22 pm on October 3rd, 2010 32
Korea's trade with China now represents 25 percent while trade with the US is only 14 percent and shrinking in terms of dollar amount, not growing. In a few years, Korean economy should be detached from the US in a major way. The Americans have promised that they will leave Korea for good, when Korean military takes over command in 2012, so I'm waiting for that. It just does not make sense to favor the bankrupted weak US over a rising rich China when Korea's interest is totally the opposite. I think what the Lee Myung Bak government is doing is a disservice to Korea's future with Asia that is taking its place in the sun, as opposed to the West who are going down in a spiral of decline and corruption. Lee Myung Bak should be voted out of power in the next election. Unfortunately he has over 50 percent approval rating so we'll have to work on that problem.
9:23 pm on October 3rd, 2010 33
You can't understand why Korea should lean towards the US and remain apprehensive of China because you are a 매국노, Tom. I hope you are well prepared to be buried alive by Koreans when you decide to sprout some of your shit in front of them. But please, do think about your wife also. Don't leave your already mangled wife behind to die alone in sadness.
9:44 pm on October 3rd, 2010 34
Explain to me K, how am i a traitor for advocating a closer relationship with Korea's best customers by far? The next best customers are EU, and the third next is the US who are falling behind the pack rapidly. I bet ASEAN will overtake the US soon, by the way things are going. Did you know that Korea's largest car market is China, not the US? The US can shut down Korea's car imports overnight, but that will only hurt themselves because many of the cars are not even made in Korea, but in Alabama and Georgia.
Korea depending on US military, you say? OK, let's consider that too. The Americans have reduced their presence in the ROK, and they have repeatedly said they will leave Korea for good. So I'm taking their word for it. With rapidly deteriorating economic and military strategic ties with the US, why is Korea then leaning towards the US, over China?
10:52 pm on October 3rd, 2010 35
Sorry K, you come to false conclusions. And it still stands, there were no 300,000 coreans standing side by side, which was my whole point.
Why are you saying they weren't respected, but feared? Among warriors its the same thing. Again, I reject your homework and your reading of someone's interpretation of history. I've been there (military and a veteran, but NOT Vietnam, I don't want you saying I claim that) and talked to guys that have been there in Vietnam. That was the generation that trained our generation.
I don't need revisionist history, the real UK has contributed far more to this point than corea. It's called WWII and WWI. Oh, and by the way, the real UK helped to save corea when once again, just like the previous century, corea go over run in 1950.
We'll see what the future holds, just give me a call when corea has been an actual participant in saving he world and is not just holding the status of 'going to save it in the undefined future in and undefined way'.
12:03 am on October 4th, 2010 36
@Tom
그 옆집짱개정부의 똥꾸녕핡고 싶어하는 사람들은 나라를 말아먹는것을 그들의 최고의 목적으로 삼는 매국노들 이라는건 너무나 기본적인 상식인데 말이죠… 아 뭐 진작에 이사람들이 한국인이 아니면 매국노가 못 되겠죠. ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
@Marcus Ambrose
"Sorry K, you come to false conclusions. And it still stands, there were no 300,000 coreans standing side by side, which was my whole point."
You missed my "50,000 pairs of boots should be enough for the first wave. Make it six waves." part. I'm willing to wait with bated breath till UK plants 50,000 pairs of boots in Afghanistan and stay with the US for the next six years with the willing active contribution of 300,000 men and women of Britain. Though I fear I'll just end up needlessly suffocating myself.
"I don’t need revisionist history, the real UK has contributed far more to this point than corea. It’s called WWII and WWI. Oh, and by the way, the real UK helped to save corea when once again, just like the previous century, corea go over run in 1950.
We’ll see what the future holds, just give me a call when corea has been an actual participant in saving he world and is not just holding the status of ‘going to save it in the undefined future in and undefined way'"
WWI and WWII were not voluntary wars that UK fought for its savior's sake. I'll see what the future holds, if UK will ever properly pay the US back for its guardianship over UK that allowed UK to become the 'great nation' that it claims it is today, as Korea tried to pay the US back once. I'll see what the future holds, if UK can become such a great nation in the eyes of the world that its supporters can look down upon the contributions that Koreans made for world peace, calling them meatshields.
12:13 am on October 4th, 2010 37
#36, K, this is an English language blog. Please do not write in Korean because not all people can understand. Your post should be deleted for calling the chi*nks, "짱개", which is a racist term. You are a racist, K. And if I wanted to suck on somebody's ass, I'd rather suck on somebody who at least can afford to buy my manufactured products (you know the old saying, best customers are always right), than somebody who thinks their crap don't stink, demanding respect, and in reality who is broke.
12:13 am on October 4th, 2010 38
Hey Tom, hope you guys enjoy being the newest Chinese province! Please come back and tell us how things go when some Chinese Soldier stationed around Tongduchon accidentally runs over some schoolgirls with his tank
!
12:20 am on October 4th, 2010 39
One of US state vs one of Chinese provinces, what's the difference?
Oh yeah, one is totally broke and getting obnoxious with their threats of Korea will be nothing without the US, and one has 2.5 Trillion and counting dollars with flourishing and exploding trade. We make money off the Chinese, while dealing with the US is an aggravation with demands after demands with fewer and fewer returns. Who'd you rather choose?
12:34 am on October 4th, 2010 40
Oh Tom, you're so silly. I hope being a part of this flourishing (for now) economy will offset all the Seoul National, Yonsei and Ewha vacancies which will arise when the PLA starts gunning down students at their protests. Folks like yourself should really compare notes with the Tibetans and Uyghurs before you make the leap…
1:02 am on October 4th, 2010 41
Ah.. but in the end it's all about national interests. If Korea has to choose between a good paying customer "A" who wants to do more business, and a former good customer "B" who is more and more demanding that he'd be treated like royalty (thus playing on the guilt trip all the time) or else he'll leave (but in reality, he's buying less and less). And if the good paying customer "A" is complaining that the obnoxious customer "B", who would you turf out? Korea's future is with rising China, and more and more Koreans will pick a winner over a yesterday's hero who demand Korea to follow whatever foreign policy the US decides. Korean and Chinese economies will even be more depended on each other once the FTA gets passed with China. It's only matter of time before the US is pushed out as an unimportant irrelevant power in a region that is increasingly becoming integrated with each other.
South Korea really should stop giving the US military, Korean subsidized US military camps so that they can project their receding power over Asia. Let the US pay for stationing those same troops at home, let's see how much more they'll end up paying to house them, without Korean government subsidy. If they don't want to create another US based camps for these troops, then they can ship them all to Iraq or Afghanistan to fight in the unending wars. But unfortunately that will still cost more money to house and feed them.
1:26 am on October 4th, 2010 42
Stupid Tom. China is the reason why Koreans died so much. Japan did the same for a while, but at least Japan will do so no longer for as long as the US protects both countries. If Korea never gets unified, you can thank China for being the main culprit.
1:37 am on October 4th, 2010 43
And whether you like it or not, Korea at its current divided and weakened state cannot stand against the nascent expansionism of China on its own in a sustained manner. South Korea has a clear strategic need for military and political assistance from a superpower ally for its continued survival. The US is the only country who'll willingly answer the call.
1:50 am on October 4th, 2010 44
US military power in Asia is irrelevant because of one simple reason. Money talks. Whether Lee Myung Bank government in Korea likes it or not, Korea's and Japan's economy are very much integrated into China's economy. That alone should tell you guys something. Economic power is far more sustainable than the simple military power. If tomorrow, South Korea is forced to choose from doing business with China or doing business with the US (one or the other but not both), who do you think Lee Myung Bak will end up choosing? I assure you, although it would be painful as it is, it's not going to be the US. This will be even more a no brainer after Korea and China does the FTA deal soon and trade between the two countries goes up by an exponential amount. This goes for all Asian countries, not just Korea. Nobody has the choice choose, there is only one choice. I'm sorry you may be offended, but I'm just telling what the reality is.
3:07 am on October 4th, 2010 45
#35
Marcus,
Are you saying this to me or K?
"Why are you saying they weren’t respected, but feared? Among warriors its the same thing. Again, I reject your homework and your reading of someone’s interpretation of history. "
Are you saying you won't read this? http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/ROKVIetnam/RO…
I'm telling you that website is not some liberal leaning, Bush bashing website. It's very much the opposite. Would you care to read that website about ROK's contribution in Vietnam?
And you do agree UK didn't win WW2 no?
3:31 am on October 4th, 2010 46
Alright Marcus the warrior,
Are you planning on reading
http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/ROKVIetnam/RO…
I'm telling you, I'm not tricking you to read some liberal stuff that you will waste your time. It's very much a website of warriors, by warriors, for warriors. Give it a try.
BTW, I don't think anyone here said anything about UK not having done enough for the world in the past or ROK taking over the role of world police force. GI Korea was just agreeing that ROK can and should do more UN peacekeeping operations.
Don't you agree with that statement?
By you bashing Korea as you are, you not dishonoring other veterans and YOU that served in ROK IMO.
3:45 am on October 4th, 2010 47
John, they were just useful tools. Just look at how they're treated. Now enough about this Vietnam War thing, it's over and done with. The US lost, got their butts wiped. And those Koreans who were involved, nobody cares, and it's a stretch to expect Americans, let alone some old retired GI to care either. Those Koreans fought and died for nothing, I'm sorry that's the truth. That's what you get when you follow the US into some conflict that don't matter to Korea. The US will pat you on the head for a while then they'll spit on you and call you a bunch of Somali pirates. So you're not even going to get any verbal credits which you desperately seek. Is it so important for you to get their approval? They died for the US cause, which is nothing. LOL.
3:50 am on October 4th, 2010 48
Marcus,
I'm feeling desperate here. Surely you are not letting TOM off the hook with his comments about US not giving ROK the recognition it deserves? It's not true right?
Surely you can counter TOM's comment? Right? right?
4:10 am on October 4th, 2010 49
John, those men are either long dead, or they're ready to kick the last can. Forget about that era, that was long time ago. Things change. And right now, it's China that's going to be taking the place of the US in Asia. It's the dawn of the new century here, face the future, not the past.
4:47 am on October 4th, 2010 50
Hehe. I saw almost the same thing said in 1989 except it was Japan instead of China. Where is Japan now?
4:51 am on October 4th, 2010 51
ANNOUNCEMENT
After reading the comments here, I have come to the conclusion that "Tom" is not a KoKo (Korean Korean). It is possible that he is a partially informed kyopo (overseas ethnic Korean) whose rants stem from having only part of the story about Korea (a blindly leftist version) and having a chip on his shoulder about White-dominated America, but I think it's more likely that he is either (a) a non-Koko, non-kyopo who is playing the part of the rabid anti-American Korean for his or others' entertainment, or (b) he is actually a Chinese-planted agitator.
In fact, I am more and more convinced that (b) is more likely. Simply put, after the atrociously bad behavior of Chinese students, orchestrated by their own embassy in Seoul, in the run-up to the 2008 Olympics, not even the leftist KoKos would support the idea touted by Tom that Korea should trade American hegemony for China's. That smacks of a Sinocentric ideal held nowadays only by PRC citizens.
Most KoKo leftists (and I'm referring largely to chinboistas) would not support my views on China's nefarious role in Korea, but they would certainly reject the idea that South Korea (or a unified Korea) is better off under China's thumb.
Like many Chinese, Tom seems to mistake (or conflate) economic activity with political power. What he doesn't understand is that, despite the large amounts of trade going back and forth between China and South Korea, China and the US, China and Japan, China and Taiwan, etc., most countries do not like Beijing. They do not like its policies toward its people, and they find its policies toward its neighbors to be ham-handedly arrogant and dangerous. China thinks it will be the leader by being the biggest in the room, when in fact that attitude will just make them more feared and hated, especially when it tries to throw its weight around to make others fall in line, much like Russia is in Europe today.
The US has been a great friend to South Korea, the Pax Americana has been a boon to South Korea's existence and to regional peace, and at heart most South Koreans know it would be foolish to give up on that, which is why we have articles like this post in the first place.
If Tom is a PRC plant (and yes, there are loads of them set loose on the anglophone blogosphere), he is in a losing battle because he is ultimately using nonsense to win his battle. What he needs to do is work on changing his government, but he can't do that.
4:54 am on October 4th, 2010 52
ANNOUNCEMENT
After reading the comments here, I have come to the conclusion that "Tom" is not a KoKo (Korean Korean). It is possible that he is a partially informed kyopo (overseas ethnic Korean) whose rants stem from having only part of the story about Korea (a blindly leftist version) and having a chip on his shoulder about White-dominated America, but I think it's more likely that he is either (a) a non-Koko, non-kyopo who is playing the part of the rabid anti-American Korean for his or others' entertainment, or (b) he is actually a Chinese-planted agitator.
In fact, I am more and more convinced that (b) is more likely. Simply put, after the atrociously bad behavior of Chinese students, orchestrated by their own embassy in Seoul, in the run-up to the 2008 Olympics, not even the leftist KoKos would support the idea touted by Tom that Korea should trade American hegemony for China's. That smacks of a Sinocentric ideal held nowadays only by PRC citizens.
Most KoKo leftists (and I’m referring largely to chinboistas) would not support my views on China’s nefarious role in Korea, but they would certainly reject the idea that South Korea (or a unified Korea) is better off under China’s thumb.
Like many Chinese, Tom seems to mistake (or conflate) economic activity with political power. What he doesn't understand is that, despite the large amounts of trade going back and forth between China and South Korea, China and the US, China and Japan, China and Taiwan, etc., most countries do not like Beijing. They do not like its policies toward its people, and they find its policies toward its neighbors to be ham-handedly arrogant and dangerous. China thinks it will be the leader by being the biggest in the room, when in fact that attitude will just make them more feared and hated, especially when it tries to throw its weight around to make others fall in line, much like Russia is in Europe today.
The US has been a great friend to South Korea, the Pax Americana has been a boon to South Korea's existence and to regional peace, and at heart most South Koreans know it would be foolish to give up on that, which is why we have articles like this post in the first place.
If Tom is a PRC plant (and yes, there are loads of them set loose on the anglophone blogosphere), he is in a losing battle because he is ultimately using nonsense to win his battle. What he needs to do is work on changing his government, but he can't do that.
4:57 am on October 4th, 2010 53
I had to cut two links from the above comment to push it past the spam filters, but the chinboista link is here (a must-read for anyone concerned about anti-Americanism in Korea, if I do say so myself) and my views on China's nefarious role in Korea are here.
4:59 am on October 4th, 2010 54
Kushibo, just ignore the troll that TOM is… Don't mention TOM and don't reply to TOM.
5:20 am on October 4th, 2010 55
Marcus Ambrose wrote:
For your gratification Kushibo: I was in Korea in the 80s and 90s.
Having lived over a third of my life in Seoul, off and on since I was a teenager, so was I.
That was the first time I met a man who was the body guard for one of the KCIA chiefs. Koreans don’t call it the KCIA, it’s the National Security Service or something like that. He used to tell me about being in Vietnam, including when he and his buddies got jumped by the Vietcong while they were downtown in Saigon on R&R. He got a knife in his skull from that one.
That's nice. I've had talks about Vietnam with ROK Vietnam vets myself, some doing actual fighting, though they don't tend to open up much about it. In fact, I first heard a lot about the ROK forces in Vietnam from a retired US Army guy I was good friends with in the 1990s who had done a couple tours in Vietnam.
So, as I said, I’m very well aware of the ROKs in Vietnam, probably before you were born. When you get some real life experience, and talk to the actual people that have been places, you won’t need google and the internet for your facts.
Hold on… your talking with a KCIA guy (that is what it was called back then) gives you "some real life experience" that I don't have? You do realize, Marcus, that you weren't there, right? You have nothing up on me at all.
Frankly, I think you're getting a tad defensive here, since you really did come across as not knowing the full extent or nature of ROK participation in Vietnam ("Where did Korea send 300,000 people?" and later, "There were 300,000 participants, and they were just as willing as the Americans that were conscripted.").
You see, knowing a KCIA guy who got a knife in the skull doesn't mean you knew there were 320K ROK troops who fought in Vietnam, that there were 50K at any given time, that 5K were killed and 11K were injured, or that they were volunteers. It looks like you're lashing out at people to obscure the fact that you tripped up on this one.
No, Marcus, I didn't need Google or the Internet for my facts. I only provided an easily accessible and fairly reliable source for your benefit, since you really did not seem to be aware of the extent or nature of the ROK military commitment to its ally and protector.
Actually, Marcus, I've been reading, writing, and discussing South Korea's role in Vietnam for quite sometime. In fact, a four-year-old post on the subject is in my "world famous posts" list in the right-hand column of my blog. So no, even though I don't know everything about it, I did not have to look it up on the Google to find out about it.
As for me, I might be a little bit older than you're guessing. I was born during the Reagan administration, but it was the one in Sacramento, not the one in Washington.
Now let me just end this by saying I don't mean any ill will toward you, your condescension and backpedaling notwithstanding. But I do wish to say that the arrogant and ill-informed American swagger of some of your posts comes across as just as bad as Tom's Sino-apologist chicanery and the ingratitude of any chinboista KoKo or kyopo.
Oh, and shout out to Tom: You can't spell chicanery without C, H, I, N, A.
5:22 am on October 4th, 2010 56
Interesting analysis Kushibo. I never bought Tom's bill of goods. From his posts it seems he is claiming to be a former KATUSA. I knew a number of KATUSAs and former KATUSAs. While a handful could verbally communicate the ideas Tom sets forth here, none could handle it in written form as well as he does. I made a couple comments directed at liberty issues and he refused to touch them in favor of economics. Very common mindset for your garden variety Marxist. After thinking about this, I would not at all be surprised if Tom were an ethnocentric Chinese person living in an English speaking nation trying to help out the "Home Team"…
5:28 am on October 4th, 2010 57
Tom,
짱개!
5:28 am on October 4th, 2010 58
Kushibo 51, what do you mean by a Chinese-planted agitator? You think Tom's physically located in China, or just acting for China? And I guess you think he's ethnically Chinese.
5:36 am on October 4th, 2010 59
Uhh, why keep talking about TOM. Waste of time.
Alright, Marcus, I'm waiting to see if you are going to or have read
http://www.talkingproud.us/Military/ROKVIetnam/RO…
It's actually pretty easy reading material.
By the way, have you been back to ROK since your tours in 80's and 90's? Let's say you were in ROK in 1995, that's like 15 YEARS AGO. Don't ya think your knowledge of Korea might be a tad outdated, especially since you claim your expertise on Korean affairs for having been there?
Things change alot in 15 years. 15 years ago no one would've thought US would have a half-black POTUS. Imaging how much ROK has changed.
5:38 am on October 4th, 2010 60
#57
GLANS, let me answer if I may.
He could be a Chinese agitator, based in China, US, NK, Europe, Australia. And not answer it in mean sense.
TOM's refusal to touch issues of liberty is just like the 'Liberal', progressive parties in SK. They are so quick to talk about abuse of human rights in SK and other places and yet NOT a quip about what's going on in NK.
WTH?
5:39 am on October 4th, 2010 61
john, if I'm right, then he is a troll, and a particularly egregious type of troll. And so I wrote what I did so that it can be linked back to time and time again. In fact, I'd like a link back to what I wrote to be the standard "reply" to Tom's Sino-centric chicanery.
Chris in Dallas, one thing I saw front and center at this humble university in Hawaii during the 2008 Olympics was not just the enthusiasm with which China's honor was defended, but the way it was all orchestrated. We had students who were instructed by electronic communication by their handlers to go and drown out the small group of pro-Tibet protesters at the beach park near Ala Moana.
Of course, that's just the bottom rung of the hierarchy, but it affects the PRC students here quite directly. There are also millions (I am too busy to look for the link) whose job it is to scour the Internet for unhealthy sentiments and others whose job it is to plant healthy sentiments. Part of this psychological warfare is to go to non-Chinese blogs in Korea, Japan, the US, Taiwan, Europe, etc., to agitate against anti-Beijing sentiment and to promote Beijing's soft power by providing a happy touchy feely view of China, even though the message often comes out very awkwardly, like my friend wearing the "Tibet in China, Torch in Heart" t-shirt.
And that leads me to Glans's question, most of which I think I already answered. I do not know if he is physically located in China. If I am right, he is a PRC national, but he could easily be in the US or some other country. In fact, his the support he gets for his studies in the US could be contingent on such participation (yes, this model is not uncommon), if he's a grad student. It is one reason that Beijing manipulates its yuan to be low against the US dollar and other currencies, so that it can have a tighter control on PRC nationals who need the government's assistance to study abroad.
And no, I am not a crackpot.
5:40 am on October 4th, 2010 62
john wrote:
Things change alot in 15 years. 15 years ago no one would’ve thought US would have a half-black POTUS. Imaging how much ROK has changed.
Fifteen years ago, no one would've thought South Korea would have a Japanese-born president.
If the US has a POTUS, does that mean South Korea has a POTROK?
5:43 am on October 4th, 2010 63
By the way, one reason I came to believe in the claims of China's Great Wall of Netizen Chicanery was when I started getting comments from people who were obviously Chinese, bent on attacking what I was saying, yet my blog (and all of Blogger) was (is still?) blocked in China. I could tell from SiteMeter that they appeared to be somewhere else, yet they claimed to be in China.
5:44 am on October 4th, 2010 64
Anybody up for some Chinese food?
5:45 am on October 4th, 2010 65
You guys can't handle the truth. Nobody has been able to counter my points reasonably because you can't.
5:48 am on October 4th, 2010 66
#64,
Ahaha. Best line I heard in weeks.
5:51 am on October 4th, 2010 67
#61
Well, in 12 years ROK had not one but two closet communists (NK sympathizer or whatever) as POTROK so I guess anything is possible.
BTW, where is Marcus the Warrior? (Mean no disrespect to actual veterans).
5:54 am on October 4th, 2010 68
Nobody has been able to counter my points reasonably because you can’t.
No, Tom, I did. Just up there. The part about South Koreans being scared $h¡tless of Chinese hegemony, particularly after the bullying in Seoul streets during the 2008 Beijing Olympic torch relay.
5:55 am on October 4th, 2010 69
"And no, I am not a crackpot. "
Oh yes you are. I just read your drivel.
"I would not at all be surprised if Tom were an ethnocentric Chinese person living in an English speaking nation trying to help out the “Home Team”…"
I am studying in an English speaking country, if you want to be accurate. But where's your home team?
6:02 am on October 4th, 2010 70
"No, Tom, I did. Just up there. The part about South Koreans being scared $h¡tless of Chinese hegemony, particularly after the bullying in Seoul streets during the 2008 Beijing Olympic torch relay."
Let's pretend you are right for a moment. Let's just say I'm a 짱개 in disguise.
Now how does that disprove my points that the US's days in Korea are numbered, and that China will be Korea's most important economic partner and that's where Korea's future lies in (China), not the rapidly sinking America? Come on, let's hear you peoples disproving my theories, give me your reasons why you think US will be around to influence Korea.
6:27 am on October 4th, 2010 71
Tianjin Tom wrote:
Let’s pretend you are right for a moment. Let’s just say I’m a 짱개 in disguise. Now how does that disprove my points that the US’s days in Korea are numbered, and that China will be Korea’s most important economic partner and that’s where Korea’s future lies in (China), not the rapidly sinking America? Come on, let’s hear you peoples disproving my theories, give me your reasons why you think US will be around to influence Korea.
What's a 짱개, Tom? Is that the counterpart to a 韓棒子? I did not use such terms, so don't even hint otherwise.
I have addressed some of yours points. For starters, you are assuming that flow of trade automatically translates into political alliance, when in fact it does not. If that were the case, Taiwan would no longer be a "renegade province" and South Korea would have been back under Japan's wing decades ago.
Second, I pointed out the overwhelming distrust and disdain toward China felt by most South Koreans, which would preclude that from happening. The bullying behavior of China toward South Korea (and to Japan) has woken up a lot of people, and they simply will not accept a switching of hegemony to Beijing, no matter how much Chinese people think that's the natural or historic order of things. Clearly you are not a KoKo, or else you would be keenly aware of that.
Finally, your notion is based on some inaccurate ideas, among them the idea that the US is "rapidly sinking." There are indeed some big problems to fix, but the US's power comes not just from its government but also its somewhat independent corporations, which, for better or worse, is part of the nature of US-led globalization and global capitalism. That means that the US government could fall apart, but US corporations would still wield great control.
More importantly, you have some basic facts wrong. You wrote, "The Americans have promised that they will leave Korea for good, when Korean military takes over command in 2012, so I’m waiting for that," when in fact there is no such thing going on. There is a huge base being built in Pyongtaek, one of many indications that the US is planning to be in South Korea for quite some time. The governing elite know it's a far cheaper way to prevent war and project power if USFK and USFJ remain where they are than if they are moved to Guam and Hawaii (where actual Americans may protest the expansion of military facilities on what is scarce land).
I doubt you can answer this with anything other than Sinocentric tropes that simply don't hold water.
6:46 am on October 4th, 2010 72
6:53 am on October 4th, 2010 73
Exactly. You hope Pyongtaek is just window dressing. Just as you hope China's economic activity will create its own gravitational pull.
What you fail to realize is that China's own actions (gunning down its non-Han citizens, threatening to withhold precious metals from Japan, kidnapping Japanese citizens in retaliation for Japan's arrest of a boat captain who rammed the Japanese coast guard in Japanese-controlled waters, beating up South Koreans in South Korea's capital who dared to protest Chinese policies in North Korea and Tibet, etc., etc.) have been repelling its neighbors and pushing them back into American orbit (which they really hadn't traveled far from anyway), and it is only your wishful thinking that the US will not stay economically powerful enough to maintain its own hegemony.
This very post is an example of South Korean joining with the US to maintain its alliance.
I no longer believe you are a KoKo. And if you are, you have not lived in South Korea in quite some time and you are woefully out of touch. At the very least, what I can say about Tom is that Tom does not represent the typical beliefs of any considerable group in South Korea, including the chinboistas who are by nature anti-US.
6:55 am on October 4th, 2010 74
The trade with the US for Korea has been virtually stuck in same place for the last 15 years. During the same period, Korea's trade with China have multiplied 10 times. China is developing rapidly and in some industries like the green industry and the biotech, they are rapidly leaving behind the US in the dust. The day is coming when China will be a consumer based market, and Korea with their niche industries, should be ready to take advantage. The US, on the other hand, the consumer debt will spiral out of control and they are going to turn protectionist, thus be unable to buy Korean goods. It's all about the economy – that's the bottom line.
6:55 am on October 4th, 2010 75
And don't get disingenuous by lumping my views with those of the Korea bashers who think they'll teach Koreans a lesson for daring to complain about the behaviors of Washington and/or USFK. I have no use for them either. Theirs is a view based on ignorance and arrogance that makes me embarrassed to be an American citizen.
7:01 am on October 4th, 2010 76
Furthermore I am Korean who was born in Seoul, not Tianjin.
I know Koreans call Chinese, cockroaches and so on. But…
병신들아 중국이 세계를 지배할 시간이다!!!
So go with the flow..
7:02 am on October 4th, 2010 77
Furthermore I am Korean who was born in Seoul, not Tianjin.
I know Koreans call Chinese, c*ck ro*ches and so on. But…
병신들아 중국이 세계를 지배할 시간이다!!!
So go with the flow..
7:02 am on October 4th, 2010 78
Again, Tom, you're mistakenly conflating trade numbers with political and military alliances. Heck, the US has trade totaling around half a trillion dollars annually with China.
Is the US also going to fall out of the US sphere of influence?
And China has a long way to go before it is a mature economy. Right now its successes are on the fringe. It relies on foreign money and know-how, while its rural interior is still wallowing in abject poverty. Yeah, I've been to China quite a few times. Seeing kids banging their head on the ground until I, the nicely dressed tourist, gives them a few renminbi is a disturbing image.
You should also note that China is not the only game in town. You see, there's a big labor pool just south of you called India, which is democratic, doesn't bully its neighbors, speaks a language all kids in Korea learn, and is open for business. People love India; people loathe China. Now if India were opening up a hegemony shop, they'd give the US a run for their money.
So enjoy the roaring Chinese economy while you can, Tom.
7:13 am on October 4th, 2010 79
Tom, I have never referred to Chinese as cockroaches or any other epithet, so stop associating that kind of thing with me.
Tom wrote:
병신들아 중국이 세계를 지배할 시간이다!!!
So go with the flow..
No KoKo would write that you idiots should just accept that China's time to dominate the world has arrived, unless it were followed by a string of winky emoticons to show that's not really what they think at all. This, combined with your earlier Sinocentric claims, is all the evidence I need that you are not a KoKo, certainly not one who is in touch with any KoKo group's zeitgeist.
7:14 am on October 4th, 2010 80
Tom, I have never referred to Chinese as ¢o¢kroa¢hes or any other epithet, so stop associating that kind of thing with me.
Tom wrote:
병신들아 중국이 세계를 지배할 시간이다!!!
So go with the flow..
No KoKo would write that you bastards should just accept that China's time to dominate the world has arrived, unless it were followed by a string of winky emoticons to show that's not really what they think at all. This, combined with your earlier Sinocentric claims, is all the evidence I need that you are not a KoKo, certainly not one who is in touch with any KoKo group's zeitgeist.
7:21 am on October 4th, 2010 81
#73 TOM
"…Korea with their niche industries, should be ready to take advantage."
#75 TOM
"I am Korean who was born in Seoul, not Tianjin."
TOM, kinda strange to say "Korea with THEIR niche industries", when you claim you are Korean…
7:57 am on October 4th, 2010 82
- "Is the US also going to fall out of the US sphere of influence?"
That is an interesting point. And my answer to that is, YES. America itself will be influenced by China whether you like it or not, you can't stop it.
- "No KoKo would write that you bastards should just accept that China’s time to dominate the world has arrived"
- "TOM, kinda strange to say “Korea with THEIR niche industries”, when you claim you are Korean…"
Why not?
8:02 am on October 4th, 2010 83
= "Again, Tom, you’re mistakenly conflating trade numbers with political and military alliances"
Don't you get it yet? Trade and economic ties will inevitably lead to other alliances – whether Korea likes it or not – out of necessity. You think Asia will be able to avoid the Chinese orbit when they're extremely depended on Chinese economy? I really don't think so.
8:09 am on October 4th, 2010 84
#79
Tom, writing flows better when you say OUR industries when you are talking about Korean industries as a Korean person.
Here's what you said earlier.
73 TOM
“…Korea with their niche industries, should be ready to take advantage.”
#75 TOM
“I am Korean who was born in Seoul, not Tianjin.”
Thought I'd help you out.
8:39 am on October 4th, 2010 85
Thanks John, for the tip. I'll try to remember that.
In the mean time, enjoy this little surprise.
China not only has the stealth capability, but also China's navy is bigger than the US.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010…
You guys are done. GTFO out of Asia.
8:46 am on October 4th, 2010 86
I still love you Tom, no matter what your heritage is or where you currently reside. You are a man and scholar amoung children.
Tom writes – "You guys are done. GTFO out of Asia."
Can I retract the man and scholar statement?
8:50 am on October 4th, 2010 87
#82
Tom, I gave you the tip about writing so that it flows better because you like to give the advice about going with the flow like you said in post #75.
"So go with the flow.."
Only Asian nation that would want US out of Asia is China. Strange huh?
8:52 am on October 4th, 2010 88
I forgot one more Asian nation that wants US out of Asia, North Korea.
9:21 am on October 4th, 2010 89
Well GTFO of Korea then.
9:28 am on October 4th, 2010 90
#82 "China not only has the stealth capability, but also China’s navy is bigger than the US.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010…
You guys are done. GTFO out of Asia."
Nihao, Tom!
Size is but one factor. Look at the article closely. It says the USSR/Russia had the biggest fleet from 1971 to 1996. Nobody with any sense thought they could best the US Navy. Same is true today in a PLAN/USN match up. Go back to your handlers in Beijing and ask for some more talking points.
9:38 am on October 4th, 2010 91
#86
Are you saying that to me or someone else? Because you are fighting/arguing with EVERYONE on this board I can't keep track who you are arguing with.
9:41 am on October 4th, 2010 92
I just find it interesting that Tom is so ready to embrace the Chinese like a benevolent sugar daddy. The U.S. may not be perfect, but I am certain their intentions in the region are kinder and more humane than China.
9:44 am on October 4th, 2010 93
#89
I'm 100% with you Marcus.
9:53 am on October 4th, 2010 94
John, I have been back to Korea since the 80's, in fact, I've been here for 20 years. I can honestly say there are things I love about the place, and hate. Korea is a good country, it's just misguided arrogance that I hate. I have been all over Korea from the DMZ tunnels to Kyung Ju, and all over Asia, and Europe, and the Middle East, and North America. Therefore, I have my own experiences and I don't need to google everything or read homework. I did read your link, I already know these facts, it doesn't change my main point. That's why I had a problem with the 300,000 number from the ROKs. I admit, I didn't know they had that many in Vietnam as a total. But the claim way at the top of this board of "where are the 300k Brits", well, they were in WWI and WWII. They they were also in the Korean war. So for anyone to compare a tiny speck of insignificance of a country like corea, who is only kept free by others, is a disservice to those who made the WORLD free. When corea has actually DONE something for the WORLD, let me know.
For those that may trash my status as a veteran, screw you. I know what I've done, and I have the t-shirt to prove it (and DD214, and DD215 since the Army is the Army :0 those in the know will get that joke).
The people that have served are the ONLY reason freedom exists. Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything. Now show me what war corea has won and helped the world? Anyone? Anyone?
9:55 am on October 4th, 2010 95
Marcus Ambrose wrote:
I just find it interesting that Tom is so ready to embrace the Chinese like a benevolent sugar daddy. The U.S. may not be perfect, but I am certain their intentions in the region are kinder and more humane than China.
Hear! Hear!
With the exception of the highly vocal pro-Pyongyang chinboistas, this is the dominant sentiment among South Koreans, especially those over forty. But thanks to the Chinese performance in 2008 (and other things, like Chinese fishermen killing or beating ROK Coast Guardsmen), younger Koreans are increasingly coming into that view earlier than in the past.
The one thing that taints this relationship, however, is evidence of bad behavior and arrogance on the part of USFK or Washington. No country really likes to accept that their security depends on an alliance with one or more other countries, and that "swagger" on the part of an ally can do a lot of damage.
9:57 am on October 4th, 2010 96
Marcus Ambrose wrote:
I admit, I didn’t know they had that many in Vietnam as a total.
You've gone up a few notches in my view, Marcus.
9:59 am on October 4th, 2010 97
Marcus Ambrose wrote:
Korea is a good country, it’s just misguided arrogance that I hate.
and
So for anyone to compare a tiny speck of insignificance of a country like corea, who is only kept free by others, is a disservice to those who made the WORLD free. When corea has actually DONE something for the WORLD, let me know.
Yeah, most people aren't big on the arrogance thing.
10:06 am on October 4th, 2010 98
#91
Marcus, who said "where are the 300k Brits"
Are you referring to post #1 Kushibo? I'm pretty sure that's not what Kushibo intended to come across as.
10:48 am on October 4th, 2010 99
John, K said it. Post #20
"When I see 300,000 Brits having willingly marched side by side against the US for the collective gain of the modern western world in wars of their savior, fighting on the frontline in what is known as one of world’s deadliest combat zone, I’ll believe your ‘done more than their part’."
And yes Kushibo, it was an arrogant statement that I made, I did it as a U.S. citizen and veteran. I do believe in my heart that the USA has done more for freedom in the modern world than any other country. We can argue all day about Iraq and Afghanistan and whether we should be there, but at least we'll do it on a blog with uncensored freedom of speech. That's not "misguided" arrogance.
11:07 am on October 4th, 2010 100
Let me clarify again, I am 100 percent full blooded Korean national doing his masters in a western university.
After I get my degree soon, I will be outta here and back to the mother country. (so don't worry I am not staying here to put strain on social services for dirty immigrants)
I served in the KATUSA in the 1990's. So obviously my English is good because you have to have a high score in English to be picked to serve in the KATUSA.. well.. duh..
Before I joined the KATUSA, I had favorable view of Americans. But after serving with them I realize all the Americans do is party all the time, and look down on Korean soldiers and Koreans alike. They supposedly came to help us and defend us. But in reality they act like conquerers and make fun of native Korean cultures. All they do is whine and bitch about how they saved Korea (as if they were involved in the Korean War), and yet these Korean whores (drinky girls) are trying to rip them off, and on and on ranting and ranting about how filthy Korea is, and what a garbage dump it is. After a while you get used to the verbal abuses heaped upon your country on a daily basis, and suffer and hear them silently, but don't expect me to think highly of you guys (you know who you are).
You know what? When that 2002 tank incident happened, I was happy because you guys got the same shit that you threw at Koreans for decades. It was backlash payback time for all those disrespects you guys threw at the Korean people and making fun of them. I enjoyed that payback. There I admit it.
Everyone here says they don't understand why any Korean would want to Chinese domination over the US. Well all I can say is, as long as the Americans aren't the ones, then I don't give a sh*t who it is. What's the difference between Americans treating us like bell hops and whores, versus Chinese possibly doing the same? At least we can make money off of them while we suck their as*. With poor financially bankrupt Americans, you can't even do that.
11:17 am on October 4th, 2010 101
LOL, Tom finally time made me smile. Now I fully understand: "As long as it's anyone but Americans."
The words of Mr. T are highly applicable here.
11:18 am on October 4th, 2010 102
I can think of at least half a dozen points where your cover story is either false or doesn't ring true.
But I'll tell you what, you email me and give me your number and we'll chat on the phone and see if you can convince me voice to voice. It's, what, 6:20 in the evening there?
11:19 am on October 4th, 2010 103
#97
Hmm.
You know the GI's that you supposedly worked with aren't the typical Americans. In fact, most American's don't even know or care where Korea is. Just like the Koreans the GIs 'riducule' aren't the typical, real Koreans.
What degree are you working on? Let's assume you left KATUSA in 1999, at age 22. Now is 2010. So you are what 33 years old? WHAT masters are you working on getting? Or you took time off to work?
You gotta rethink the following statement of yours very very carefully. You think you (or Koreans according to you) had it hard 'under' Americans? Think again my friend. Do you think you could bxtch about Chinese govt while living in China, as freely as you are complaining about US?
"Well all I can say is, as long as the Americans aren’t the ones, then I don’t give a sh*t who it is. What’s the difference between Americans treating us like bell hops and whores, versus Chinese possibly doing the same?"
11:27 am on October 4th, 2010 104
Sorry guys, but I'm not revealing anymore personal information with you other than I'm in my 30's. After all, I don't want crazy psycho nut cases like kushibo the mad American to follow me around and ring me up with death threats because what I wrote on the net.
11:29 am on October 4th, 2010 105
- "What degree are you working on? Let’s assume you left KATUSA in 1999, at age 22. Now is 2010. So you are what 33 years old? WHAT masters are you working on getting? Or you took time off to work?"
John, let's just say I don't have to work like you do because I can afford it. ha ha ha.
11:33 am on October 4th, 2010 106
난 맞았다.
아, 그리고, 난 화난 미국인 아니고, 난 짜증난 서울인이다.
톰님, 얼엿을태 서울 어디 살앗노? 어느 변웡에 태언앗음? 때하꾜는? 정곤? 대답해죠…
11:43 am on October 4th, 2010 107
"얼엿을태 서울 어디 살앗노"
Yeoksamdong.
"어느 변웡에 태언앗음"
I don't know. Why do you care?
"때하꾜는?"
University in Western country.
And why do you have a Kyungsang accent?
11:57 am on October 4th, 2010 108
I don’t know. Why do you care?
어터께 앍우 업서?
University in Western country.
때하꾜태도? 글앰연, 어터께 까뚜싸 됤우 있읔?
12:12 pm on October 4th, 2010 109
Your Korean is poor, please check your Hangul spelling.
12:24 pm on October 4th, 2010 110
Tom, what do you think about human rights violation in China? Also I would love to head you cursing the Chinese government. Can you do that?
12:26 pm on October 4th, 2010 111
"heard". Sorry, wrong spelling.
1:32 pm on October 4th, 2010 112
Tom, good God almighty. You're in college and in your 30's? Now that is funny! What is icing on the cake is you attend an AMERICAN university in the West. Maybe the school you attend is a "no name" university where you simply pay the fees and in return are given Bs. Regardless, I find it odd that there is no way you could have ever passed the mandatory English courses I needed to graduate with. Again, you are in your 30s going to school. Do you work at McDonald's too?
1:57 pm on October 4th, 2010 113
Beijing Betty wrote:
Your Korean is poor, please check your Hangul spelling.
Actually my Korean is all right. I'd describe myself as highly functional, having picked it up from relatives, friends, and just plain living in Seoul.
However, in my queries up above, my Hangul spelling was deliberately written in such a way that someone who was native, fluent, or reasonably functional at Korean would be able to pick up, but a Google-type translator would read as gibberish.
Your responses, your timing, and how they were answered are very telling, 譚씨.
2:00 pm on October 4th, 2010 114
Lemmy, I think Tom is a grad student, not an undergraduate. And if that's the case, a grad student starting a master's or PhD in his/her thirties is not odd at all. Heck, that's me!
2:13 pm on October 4th, 2010 115
Marcus Ambrose wrote:
And yes Kushibo, it was an arrogant statement that I made, I did it as a U.S. citizen and veteran. I do believe in my heart that the USA has done more for freedom in the modern world than any other country. We can argue all day about Iraq and Afghanistan and whether we should be there, but at least we’ll do it on a blog with uncensored freedom of speech. That’s not “misguided” arrogance.
Marcus, have you read my Pax Americana post? I certainly share your belief that the US has done far more good in the world than bad, and I've been proud to help out at USFK wherever I could because I believe the US has been a great protector of the South Korea and a great keeper of peace in the region.
BUT, the US is not perfect and there have been some major missteps. That doesn't mean the US is bad or GIs are bad or that South Koreans (or Japanese) are ungrateful, etc., it just means that no country is perfect.
But I hate to say it, and I hope you will accept what I'm saying in the constructive spirit in which it is intended, but you buy a lot of bad will, and you belittle and demean the US's accomplishments in the region by denigrating the countries that have been on the receiving end of US help. If the US is so altruistic and so beneficent and democratic-minded, there's no need to "defend" the US's or US military's honor by disparaging and deprecating our allies, even those in US allies' populations who don't care for the US presence.
7:43 pm on October 4th, 2010 116
- "Your responses, your timing, and how they were answered are very telling, 譚씨"
How's that possible when I answered all your questions?
You asked me where in Seoul I lived when I was young, which hospital was I born, which university I attended. In which you deliberately (as you claim) misspelled all the questions, thrown in with a "살앗노?" a Kyungsangdo accent.
If I was a jjankke, I couldn't have answered any of your questions, and on top of that I wouldn't have told you that your Korean was horrible.
7:54 pm on October 4th, 2010 117
"Tom, good God almighty. You’re in college and in your 30′s? Now that is funny! What is icing on the cake is you attend an AMERICAN university in the West. Maybe the school you attend is a “no name” university where you simply pay the fees and in return are given Bs. Regardless, I find it odd that there is no way you could have ever passed the mandatory English courses I needed to graduate with. Again, you are in your 30s going to school. Do you work at McDonald’s too?"
Yes Lemmy I still attend school because I'm a loser. I need to take advantage of the Western university so that I can take advantage of the system to the max to further my goals. If angry English teachers from the West are taking advantage of the Korean system to further their interest of making money and having sex, why can't I take advantage of the system in the West? I think it's a fair trade.
9:48 pm on October 4th, 2010 118
"“where are the 300k Brits”, well, they were in WWI and WWII. They they were also in the Korean war. So for anyone to compare a tiny speck of insignificance of a country like corea, who is only kept free by others, is a disservice to those who made the WORLD free. When corea has actually DONE something for the WORLD, let me know."
"Again, tell me when the Japanese, French, Germans, or even the British finally decide to march in groups of hundred thousands TO DO A MISSION THAT IS NOT THEIRS, willfully detaching themselves from the excess comforts of their french fries and porn videos, as a pay back to the one who saved their country. I think that savior has a lot to gain from additional 300,000 soldiers fighting in Afghanistan for the next decade side by side with its own soldiers, and it will be very grateful for their contribution, its previous role in their national survival notwithstanding."
If UK can take the credit for fighting in WWI and WWII as having VOLUNTARILY fought for the WORLD, or for the US, not for ITSELF, maybe Korea can take the same credit for having fought in the Korean War for the WORLD and the US too, and also in its independence movement against Japan.
Remember, in the World Wars, UK was saved by the US and the world powers who rallied around it (the Allies) in the same way Korea was saved by the Allies from Japan's imperialism and the Korean War. It's contribution in WWI and WWII, when evaluated as voluntary acts, is only as remarkable whichever wars Korea had to wage on its own. My opinion is that, if UK supporters think that Korea's contribution to world peace was comparable in scale only to what little contribution Somali women and children made for their terrorist overlords, then neither can Brits claim they sufficiently payed the US and its allies back for their collective defense of UK in the first few crucial decades of its 20th century history. If Korea's contribution in its own forced independence asymmetric wars against Japan, and in the Korean War against North Korea and China, and in its VOLUNTARY active participation in the Vietnam War, is not having 'DONE something for the WORLD', then I'm sorry to inform you that by the same stretch, UK too has done a great disservice to the one who made UK a free and powerful country – the Allies – by ignoring their call for help in the Vietnam War, in which they attempted to save the democracy of Vietnam and millions of its people, which South Korea, then a small, divided, and poor third world country, righteously answered to fight for. UK did not fight a war that it wasn't forced to fight. All the wars UK waged until now is almost solely for its own exclusive benefit.
I'm going to reiterate myself once more clearly for you. UK fought in WWI and WWII because it was FORCED. It received aid from the Allies and the Soviets that was needed for ITS survival, not the other way around. But South Korea CHOSE to fight Vietnam War, to aid the Allies against the Soviets, China, and their communist proxy. It fought to help ANOTHER country survive.
That still supposedly doesn't mean that UK did a poor job for keeping world peace in absolute terms, but it is nothing exceptionally remarkable in comparative terms, even when compared to contributions of countries like Korea. UK's own lackluster history of voluntarily working for world peace would render any UK supporter hypocritical in their derailment of Korea's own contribution for world peace, if they at the same time don't lambast UK for its own inaction when some countries in the world clearly wanted the UK to VOLUNTARILY act for the world's sake.
12:52 am on October 5th, 2010 119
K, American soldiers are big talkers when it comes to their battle front exploits. I have known more than a few of them who talk and brag about how they single handedly wiped out the enemy and how tough and strong they are. They also like to denigrate and put down countries and people and their accomplishments who are not part of the American culture. In other words, their feces don't stink. It's annoying at first, but after a while you just nod your head and just play along.
Knowing that most of these guys probably shuffled papers behind some desk in the rear area, far away from the battle fields, got into drunken fights with the locals, beat up on old ladies and old men. Now they are tough proud US soldiers. You have to understand how they think and take loud braggart behaviours with a grain of salt.
3:04 am on October 5th, 2010 120
#102
Hey Tom,
"John, let’s just say I don’t have to work like you do because I can afford it. ha ha ha."
I suggested that maybe you took time out to work and than went back to get masters. I was trying to make you look good. No need to get snotty about you not having to work, which I know isn't true.
3:08 am on October 5th, 2010 121
TOM
I think we are all waiting to hear from you about your opinion about China's human rights issue. Do you think it's alright or not alright?
4:27 am on October 5th, 2010 122
China's human rights issue…. is terrible.
But does that stop Korea, Japan, and all of Asia from going into China's orbit? Nope. Why not? Because they have no choice other than to cooperate with China, otherwise face economic hurt. You might as well work with the Chinese since nobody has a choice. The United States is not going to be there to help Asia. Even if they wanted to, they themselves are being pulled into the China's economic orbit (just look at the way they had to modify their foreign policy to please China), and are too weak. That's the new global new world order, what else can you do?
4:40 am on October 5th, 2010 123
Sure TOM
You've convinced me.
4:41 am on October 5th, 2010 124
TOM, 너 중국사람이지? 사실대로 말해봐.
4:53 am on October 5th, 2010 125
#121
Of course he is Chinese. I know some myself and they are proud of their heritage and history but certainly not their communist leadership.
4:57 am on October 5th, 2010 126
Dr.Yu, to prove that I didn't use the computer translator, I will answer you in English letters.
Jeon Joong-gook saram anim-nida. Jeon jjankke-ga ani-ran mal-ee-aeyo. Jeongmal-yi-eh-yo. Jeon, jarangseuro-un Daehanmingook saram imnida. Jeol miduh joosehyo, neh?
Come on guys, I am not a jja-jang.
4:59 am on October 5th, 2010 127
Beijing Betty wrote:
- “Your responses, your timing, and how they were answered are very telling, 譚씨”
How’s that possible when I answered all your questions?
Actually, you didn't. You said you didn't know what hospital you were born in.
Now, I could be wrong, and I will sincerely put this out there for the ROKDroppers to give their input, but I think it is unusual for a person to not know what hospital they were born in. In my circle of relatives and friends, this is something that everyone knows. I hold out the possibility that my circle is full of outliers, exceptions to this, but until I hear others here telling me, "No, I don't know what hospital I was born in," then I'm going to go with the theory that you didn't provide the information because pinpointing an actual hospital in an actual time and place runs the risk of being discovered in a false statement.
So, ROKdroppers, what say you?
You asked me where in Seoul I lived when I was young, which hospital was I born, which university I attended.
So you got your undergraduate degree in a university in a Western country?
In which you deliberately (as you claim) misspelled all the questions, thrown in with a “살앗노?” a Kyungsangdo accent.
That I was deliberately misspelling was so obvious that a native and primary Korean-speaking person would likely not have even commented on it, much less used the misspelling to disparage my humble Korean language skills.
If I was a jjankke,
Stop using that in your replies to me. I did not and do not use racial or ethnic epithets like that and it is wrong of you to associate that with me.
I couldn’t have answered any of your questions, and on top of that I wouldn’t have told you that your Korean was horrible.
Au contraire, comrade. Your responses, your timing, and how they were answered are indeed very telling. Unlike john, who kindly (but foolishly) revealed to you one of your bigger slip-ups (claiming to be a proud South Korean but referring to Korean entities in the third person), I'm not going to lay out your missteps that betray your chicanery so you can try to fix or obscure them next time, not right now anyway.
So, as I laid out in #51, I think it is likely you are here as part of Beijing's psyops, although I do hold out the possibility that you are a selectively informed kyopo (overseas ethnic Korean) or ROK national who has lived a very long time abroad, to the point of being nearly entirely disconnected from the zeitgeist of most Koreans, whose rants stem from having only part of the story about Korea (a blindly leftist version) and having a chip on his shoulder about White-dominated America.
5:01 am on October 5th, 2010 128
Dr. Yu wrote:
TOM, 너 중국사람이지? 사실대로 말해봐.
Let me fix that for you:
톰시, 노 중굯아라미지? 싸씰댈오 말햅와.
5:02 am on October 5th, 2010 129
sibal…. jjankke-ga ani-ranikka.. !
5:05 am on October 5th, 2010 130
오… 마이… 갓!
톰씨는… 한글 읽을 수 있어! 진짜 한국사람이지!
혼또 데스! 혼또!
5:07 am on October 5th, 2010 131
ddeng ddeng ddeng ddeng!!! Kushibo finally gets it!
5:09 am on October 5th, 2010 132
GI Korea, seriously, if Tom is going to keep using racial epithets, can you please either warn him or ban him?
Oh, and for those of you who couldn't follow my sarcasm just above, ||go here.
5:15 am on October 5th, 2010 133
Let me help you out with another possibility, Kushibo. (which you didn't think about, but I'm helping you out with)
I could be a Joseonjok.
5:20 am on October 5th, 2010 134
Tom, something odd there…
Except for #76, which was a sentence someone could have easily copied from a Google-type translator, you have not produced a single word in Hangul, yet inexplicably you have written Korean sentences several times in Romanization (#124, #127, #129), and in #105 you answered my Korean-language questions in full English.
Could it be that your Beijing handlers didn't actually get you a computer with an OS capable of readily producing Korean characters?
5:21 am on October 5th, 2010 135
"That I was deliberately misspelling was so obvious that a native and primary Korean-speaking person would likely not have even commented on it, much less used the misspelling to disparage my humble Korean language skills."
Precisely the reason why I didn't mention it, in my first reply back to that question. (Go back and check it out).
Then after I figured out it was a test, I pointed it out to you, to prove I know how to write proper Korean. Seriously, how do you figure a non Korean speaking Chinese could answer you back when the google translator is useless?
5:23 am on October 5th, 2010 136
Beijing Betty wrote:
Let me help you out with another possibility, Kushibo. (which you didn’t think about, but I’m helping you out with)
I could be a Joseonjok.
Oh, that is certainly a possibility I did think about. If you'll notice in #51, I made reference to you being a PRC national, which in no way precludes a 조선족.
So is that what you are? A Chosŏnjok, an ethnic Korean from China?
And if that's the case, great, and can you lay out a little more detail of how you ended up in South Korea?
5:26 am on October 5th, 2010 137
#131, I can answer that. Wait until tonight when I go home, then I can type in Hangul. Right now I can't because I'm on a public computer and they've restricted me from changing language input.
We can chat tonight in Hangul, all you like, to your hearts content. Happy?
5:26 am on October 5th, 2010 138
Beijing Betty wrote:
Precisely the reason why I didn’t mention it, in my first reply back to that question. (Go back and check it out).
So you waiting a whole thirty-nine minutes, until a time when you couldn't or didn't answer the follow-up questions, and that means you "didn't mention it"?
Then after I figured out it was a test, I pointed it out to you, to prove I know how to write proper Korean. Seriously, how do you figure a non Korean speaking Chinese could answer you back when the google translator is useless?
Oh, yes, that would be impossible, wouldn't it? Because my little game was intended to make it impossible for a non-Korean speaker to answer, not merely difficult, right?
Like I said, very telling, though I shan't get into why just now.
5:28 am on October 5th, 2010 139
"So is that what you are? A Chosŏnjok, an ethnic Korean from China?"
No I'm not..
Kushibo, you're all over the place now, you're completely messed up and confused… 
5:30 am on October 5th, 2010 140
#131, I can answer that. Wait until tonight when I go home, then I can type in Hangul. Right now I can’t because I’m on a public computer and they’ve restricted me from changing language input.
We can chat tonight in Hangul, all you like, to your hearts content. Happy?
You're a grad student who doesn't have his own computer? Sorry, not buying that.
And no, if you're going to answer, answer now in English so that the general ROK Drop readership can participate. I know I'm not the only one who is curious about these things.
5:31 am on October 5th, 2010 141
#135, oh wow, so you're going penalize me for not answering you back for whole thirty-nine minutes?
What am I supposed to do, wait for your replies for every seconds in this forum? I have a life you know.
5:33 am on October 5th, 2010 142
"You’re a grad student who doesn’t have his own computer? "
Who said I don't have my computer?
I just don't have my computer with me. 
5:37 am on October 5th, 2010 143
Beijing Betty wrote about being a Chosŏnjok:
No I’m not.. Kushibo, you’re all over the place now, you’re completely messed up and confused…
Nice obfuscation, Tom.
No, please read #51 again. You being a Chosŏnjok (if that's what you are) would in no way contradict what I wrote. In fact, that possibility would make it even more likely.
To recap, I have suggested that you are almost certainly not a ROK national who has lived primarily in South Korea, but instead are likely:
(a) a Chinese-directed agitator,
(b) a partially informed kyopo (overseas ethnic Korean) whose rants stem from having only part of the story about Korea (a blindly leftist version) and having a chip on his shoulder about White-dominated America,
(c) a ROK national who has lived mostly outside of South Korea, perhaps with the same issues as described in (b), or
(d) a non-Koko, non-kyopo who is playing the part of the rabid anti-American Korean for his or others’ entertainment.
It is entirely possible you really are (c) and did actually serve as a KATUSA, but highly unlikely, judging by the narrative of your time as a KATUSA in #97. Either your narrative is false or your résumé is false.
5:46 am on October 5th, 2010 144
You've just about covered all your possibilities. I thought you are 100% sure I'm 100% Chinese? Why all the other possibilities? Because you are not sure. Because there is a strong possibility you are wrong but don't want to admit it. And why is #97 false narrative? Just because I wrote GI's are a*holes? I am right you know. I've seen GI's beat up old men, make fun of drinky girls, and brag they are so tough.
6:15 am on October 5th, 2010 145
Tom wrote:
You’ve just about covered all your possibilities. I thought you are 100% sure I’m 100% Chinese? Why all the other possibilities? Because you are not sure.
Because I'm honest. I am admitting that I don't have 100% certainty. I trust my intuition because my gut has served me well, but I realize that when I explain my intuitive process, it is less convincing to others until the truth finally comes out.
I also recognize that my intuition may yield more than one possibility. The one thing I am virtually 100% certain of is that you are not a ROK national who has lived most of his life in South Korea. If you actually are, you are such an unlikely outlier that you don't represent any opinion but your own, much less any zeitgeist of everyday Koreans that is worth paying attention to.
If I had to put numbers to it, I'd guess around 70% likelihood you are a PRC agitator, with the other semi-informed kyopo or overseas ROK national being about 25%. Given that there are mizar's out there (another whom I pegged early on and whose obfuscative behavioral pattern you closely resemble), I think option (d) above is another 5 or 10%.
Because there is a strong possibility you are wrong but don’t want to admit it.
Excuse me? I think it was very clear that I have admitted I don't have 100% certainty. I admitted that from the get-go, back in comment #51, when I referred to a "more likely" situation. In fact, you only know about my less-than-100%-certainty because I told you, so I'm certainly not loath to admit it.
And why is #97 false narrative? Just because I wrote GI’s are a*holes? I am right you know. I’ve seen GI’s beat up old men, make fun of drinky girls, and brag they are so tough.
Your narrative sounds like someone reading off a boilerplate description of bad GIs, not someone who has worked with them in the capacity of a KATUSA, at least not someone "had favorable view of Americans" when he started as a KATUSA. You see, I have worked with a number of KATUSAs in a civilian capacity, including some who really grew to loathe some of the KATUSAs they worked with, but they still don't come up with a narrative like yours.
And it's very clear that you don't get why it doesn't ring true, and without telling you too much so you can try to polish it up (if I am right about you being a PRC psyops instigator), the problem is in subtext, tone, and presentation of the narrative, not in the facts of the narrative.
6:25 am on October 5th, 2010 146
#97
Reading TOM claiming how anything other than Americans would be better for Korea really makes me doubt his maturity/sanity. REALLY? This whole thread made me come up with a story fit for Korean drama.
There were 2 young brothers, TOM and John in a town.
Their parents were poorest in the town and they were picked on a lot at their elementary school. One kid (wanna be gangster), Smith, in particular picked on them calling their mom drinky girl and beating them up, and boasted of other kids he beat up before. Smith behaved as he did because his parents were filthy rich, in fact owned half of the town. They lived on the other end of town from TOM and John's parents. Smith's parents really didn't have a reason to care for parents of TOM and John other than wanting peace in the town.
By some strange chance the parents of Smith, being responsible for the town they lived in, began to have pity on TOM and John and provided for their college education. John was grateful for the opportunity and took advantage of it and grew up to be a productive citizen of the town. He eventually grew up to be a doctor and actually helped treat Smith. TOM on the other hand couldn't let go of the perceived injustice dished out by Smith in elementary school. He JUST couldn't get over it. So he decides to pay back the injustice by joining the real gangs of the town. He thought he was joining the orbit of the eventual winner. But he eventually ends in maximum security jail because, well you know bad guys eventually end up getting caught.
And his brother John can't fathom why his brother TOM will go down the path of bitter, self-destruction. John tells himself,
"Can't he understand? The boy Smith isn't the real representative of the rich family. See if Smith's parents were like Smith, they wouldn't have paid for housing/education for me and TOM."
At the end of the drama series, John visits TOM in maximum security prison and reminisce the past. TOM asks his brother John,
"Didn't you have any anger at Smith for picking on us in Elementary school?"
John, looks at his bro behind bars, and calms says,
"Sure I was mad at Smith. But what good does it to to hang onto it. Yes I wanted to beat Smith at something. So I worked hard and got a better job than Smith. My own family won't be as rich as Smith's parents but at least I'm not the poorest in the town. Others won't pick on my kids. But look at you. You are a convict. YOUR kids will be picked on in school. I try to send some rice over to your wife and kids, but your bad wife keeps reselling the rice to buy guns and knives and doesn't really use it to feed the kids. John's Galaxy S phone rings with a call from his office. John gets up and says Good Bye."
Thanks TOM.
7:25 am on October 5th, 2010 147
#124: "So, ROKdroppers, what say you?"
I'm going to just focus on the KATUSA thing. I really don't have the skillz to figure out if he's a Chinese plant. I will say this much; I've known all sorts of Koreans. I can't recall ever meeting one this in love with China. Anyhow, lets move along!
The thing that bothers me is his English. Its just too damned good. Great grammar, very good spelling, adept use of US slang, etc. I have never met a Korean born in Korea who had such a command of American style English. I'm an attorney and I interact with a number of Korean attorneys. Despite all the education they've received, their written English tends to be rough. So how can a former KATUSA now in grad school manage to gain such skill in English?
The other possibility is Tom is an ethnic Korean who grew up in an English speaking country (likely the US) and went back to perform military service. Fat chance. The vast majority of Korean males I know in the military service age window successfully avoid doing their time. I've known a couple who did serve in the ROK armed forces, but none were KATUSAs. Think about it. Its apparently fairly easy for Korean living overseas to not serve. So if you're already past the concept of avoiding service, why would you half-step and be a KATUSA? No, all the Gyopos I know who went back to do their time served in the normal ROK Army or ROKMC.
Given all that, the KATUA thing just can't be true.
11:43 am on October 5th, 2010 148
Tom, if I (you) were a real Korean I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince others that I'm a Korean and your answer on China's humans rights abuse is a clear sign of your real nationality.
Please, I'm still waiting to heard you cursing the Chinese government for human rights abuse and their "northern project" claiming Koguryo as part of Chinese history.
A Korean would be delighted to do so, but a Chinese …
12:43 pm on October 5th, 2010 149
Tom wrote:
#135, oh wow, so you’re going penalize me for not answering you back for whole thirty-nine minutes?
I think you missed the point. You did point out, as a true native Korean speaker whose primary language it is would likely not have done, that my spelling was bad, and you did so in lieu of answering the questions.
The timing is not particularly important at all, and I only mentioned it to address your claim that since you didn’t do it on the first reply then it doesn’t mean anything that you did it later.
What am I supposed to do, wait for your replies for every seconds in this forum? I have a life you know.
You have a life? You’ve just written ten replies to mine and others’ posts in the past hour (including six in the past fifteen minutes!), so it is something you do. Your thirty-nine minute wait, followed by an evasive non-answer, may indicate an inability to answer questions on your own.
1:45 pm on October 5th, 2010 150
- “If I had to put numbers to it, I’d guess around 70% likelihood you are a PRC agitator, with the other semi-informed kyopo or overseas ROK national being about 25%. Given that there are mizar’s out there (another whom I pegged early on and whose obfuscative behavioral pattern you closely resemble), I think option (d) above is another 5 or 10%.”
OKay. Let’s say I’m 70% PRC agitator. How does that invalidate the fact that Korea, Japan, and Asian in most parts will be under Chinese economic domination? You guys are attacking me because you don’t like my message. And what the heck is a “mizar”? I’m a mizar, yeah that makes sense. I must be a really bad person.
- “Your narrative sounds like someone reading off a boilerplate description of bad GIs, not someone who has worked with them in the capacity of a KATUSA, at least not someone “had favorable view of Americans” when he started as a KATUSA. You see, I have worked with a number of KATUSAs in a civilian capacity, including some who really grew to loathe some of the KATUSAs they worked with, but they still don’t come up with a narrative like yours.”
All GI’s are angels. Right. I understand. And you know all the KATUSA’s present, past, and the future. Right. Kushibo has more experience with being KATUSA’s than the KATUSA’s themselves. So Kushibo is the expert on KATUSA’s.
OKAY, you win. Since you want to shut me up, I will shut up. I will stop posting here to make you all happy so that you can continue on to post one sided opinions, go right ahead!
3:45 pm on October 5th, 2010 151
I know I promised to not post anymore. But April 1 came early this year.
- “The thing that bothers me is his English. Its just too damned good. Great grammar, very good spelling, adept use of US slang, etc. I have never met a Korean born in Korea who had such a command of American style English.”
—-
Thanks for the complements, Mr. Lawyer! You maybe surprised how many Korean born Koreans have the language ability to speak great English. I’m not talking about the average Kim. I’m talking about a very few elite who have the natural gift of languages. They are few in numbers, but they do exist. I’m one of those people. My English is flawlessly flawless (pun intended). If I wanted to learn Hindi, I bet you I can learn that in matter of months and be flawlessly fluent without an accent in couple of years. And as language geniuses, we can do it without leaving Korea, without even going to any hagwons. I know, it’s hard to believe, but it’s true, we exist.
Now I must admit I spent my early years in the West and I am partially a byproduct of the Western education system, which gives me a window to the Western world and its culture. Yes I admit my parents were well off, that’s why I was afforded a Western education. That’s also the reason why I am familiar with your culture, your thought patterns, your behavior, and your weaknesses. Why did I choose to serve in the Korean military when I didn’t have to? Because I’m a Korean national, I’m proud of it, and would never give it up over anything, especially for some convenience sake. Why did I choose a KATUSA over the regular Korean military or the Korean marine corp? Because I felt it was the easiest for me to serve. I’m not physically imposing enough to be a marine, nor did I want to waste my years learning no skills in the regular ROK army. I felt that with my great language skills and cultural knowledge of both worlds, I could better serve the country and gain more knowledge about the world I live in.
So why am I so anti American and anti GI? Because when I served in the KATUSA, the GI’s were some of the most uneducated, pain in the neck, constant partying, loud rapping dumb a$$es I’ve ever seen in my whole life. What is it with the GI’s and their gangsta rap musics anyway? All they knew or cared about was America, and they had no desire to learn nor care to learn about the country that they were there to protect. They looked down on Koreans, consciously and subconsciously. I can tell their disdain for Korean culture by the way they talked, joked, and swaggered. That pi$$ed me off.
But you know what? At the end of the day, most of them GI’s were some of the greatest dumb a$$ guys I’ve ever served with. I’m not kidding. Sometimes they had the uncanny talent to pi$$ me off, no question. But I trusted them because they were my buddies, they were always there for me (and I was there for them), even though they were fuc*tard ignorants. We looked out for each other. I also had some of the greatest time of my life with these guys, and I don’t regret it, because I learned a lot. They were certainly pain in the a$$es, but they were also genuinely good guys. I enjoyed hanging out with them, taking them out to town and introducing them to Korean culture, and Korean interesting things to do’s. I was impressed with some of them who were soldiers first, but still had time to develop themselves. It takes discipline. In short, I would recommend KATUSA’s to any Korean who has enough language ability to make it, because it’s fun, you can learn a lot, and you get to learn about the American culture. So there you go, that’s my thought on the KATUSA’s and the GI’s. I hated their attitude and behavior sometimes, but nevertheless I loved them for what they were, good dumb a$$ guys who were away from home, defending my country (even though they didn’t like where they were).
11:23 pm on October 5th, 2010 152
Every time Tom gives his comments I feel the smell of fried duck in the air … You are a Chinese troll Tom.
11:51 pm on October 5th, 2010 153
Nie hao Dr.Yu.
Dr.Yu, right now the greatest danger to Korea and the Asia's peace is China.
They are getting haughty because they feel they earned a little bit of money. Now they want to act like they are the top mafia boss. The yanks are the pain in the ass sometimes with their constant whinings that make me sick of their faces which I give them a hard time about in this forum, but at least their hegemony meant peace and stability for Asia. These Chinese on the other hand, are a totally different matter. They have an agenda, and their agenda is to turn the clock back to 1000 years ago and reclaim all historic geographic claims and revenge all historic grievances. Chinese do not respect cultures of other Asians, as they think other Asians are just an extension of themselves or cheap copies of their culture. I'm talking about Korea, which Chinese proudly proclaim as a vassal state. Most Chinese would have no objections if Chinese government, tomorrow, decided to "annex" Korea. The chatter in the Chinese internet is incredibly biased against Korea. Chinese are upset that the current Korean government has favored the US over China, and that Koreans "look down" on the Chinese people They feel aggrieved and remain sensitive because of their higher and higher nationalism. Of course, this could change if the Conservatives in Korea are voted out of power and the leftists regain power. The LDP will likely re-instate closer ties with North Korea and China. That is unlikely for now, unless the Korean economy goes into a complete dumpster.
The biggest complain that Chinese have about Koreans is that Koreans look down on the Chinese. I'm sorry, but the Chinese should look themselves in the mirror and see how they behave abroad which sets their poor reputation.
The US is, and has been the greatest beneficiary source for Korea. Never in Korean history, has Korea prospered, as we have, under the US influence. I don't want to see a Chinese domination of any kind. We, as in non-Chinese world, should do much more to counter China and stop helping out their economy so much. I would never buy Chinese goods if I could help it, nor will I ever invest in China if I could help it.
3:22 am on October 6th, 2010 154
It looks like Tom's desk got shuffled and a new Tom has taken over.
And I mean that seriously, though it is a possibility that when one gets discovered the manual says you need to soften or change tactics.
I hope Tom isn't in some re-education camp in Xinjiang somewhere. It's mighty cold there in the winter.
4:25 am on October 6th, 2010 155
Nie hao Kushibo.
Actually I decided to clean out my desk, clean my house, and take a bath. And voila! A new and improved Tom!
8:08 am on October 6th, 2010 156
Tom,
Honestly speaking I don't care if you are a Chinese and the things you have been posting here, after all this a public space, what bothers me about you is that you have been trolling here giving everyone the impression that you were a Korean when you are indeed a Chinese. What's so difficult for you to admit that you are a Chinese and let everyone know that your opinions are based on a Chinese perspective?
8:16 am on October 6th, 2010 157
That's because I'm a Korean.
8:26 am on October 6th, 2010 158
Sure, and I'm Obama.
8:30 am on October 6th, 2010 159
Nice to meet you Mr. President.
9:59 am on October 6th, 2010 160
Kushibo, which is a better use of your time, arguing with Tom, or reading "Somewhere Inside" and "The World Is Bigger Now"?
11:22 am on October 6th, 2010 161
Glans,
Arguing with Tom.
6:24 pm on October 6th, 2010 162
I'd say outing a PRC national engaging in psyops, or an overseas Korean duped by their rhetoric, in a way that is intended to demoralize USFK personnel and/or get Americans to turn on Koreans on such a prominent blog as this is a worthy way to spend my time.
6:25 pm on October 6th, 2010 163
And I didn't spend that much time on my comments above. I'm a quick wit with even faster fingers.
For now, Laura Ling and Euna Lee (who has not sent me a free copy of her book) are taking a back seat to Edward Said, whose book I must read for a theory class.
7:00 pm on October 6th, 2010 164
kushibo 159, are you referring to Edward Wadie Saïd, AKA إدوارد وديع سعيد? The dude that accused us decent folks of Orientalism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said#.22Orien…
You're not an anti-American liberal, are you? Your young and impressionable mind is safer studying the works of Lee and the Lings.
kushibo 158, Tom's not hurting anyone's morale. He's like Tokyo Rose: the boys listened to her for laughs.
7:03 pm on October 6th, 2010 165
ChickenHead 157, I recommend “Somewhere Inside” and “The World Is Bigger Now” for you, too. I'd like to read your evaluation of them — after you actually read them.
7:09 pm on October 6th, 2010 166
Glans wrote:
kushibo 159, are you referring to Edward Wadie Saïd, AKA إدوارد وديع سعيد? The dude that accused us decent folks of Orientalism?
And some not-so-decent folks as well.
You’re not an anti-American liberal, are you? Your young and impressionable mind is safer studying the works of Lee and the Lings.
Edward Said is the choice of my professor, not mine. She is a Marxist theorist, so we're focusing more on theories of otherism rather than practical workings of social stratification and how it manifests itself (I'm interested in the subject to see how non-ROK citizens might fit into the South Korean health system, as part of my public health studies).
Said is all right. Those of us who grew up in the West can't help our respective countries' history, so there's no reason to take what he says personal.
kushibo 158, Tom’s not hurting anyone’s morale. He’s like Tokyo Rose: the boys listened to her for laughs.
Au contraire. Tokyo Rose (who was a proud American forced to do what she was doing, iirc) was talking nonsense to people hell bent on stopping the Japanese. What the PRC psyops agents and the North Koreans and their chinboista fellow travelers are trying to do, in part, is to get enough Americans disgusted with "ungrateful Koreans" and "Koreans who hate Americans," etc., etc., that they will form a critical mass of US citizens who demand the US quit South Korea and Japan, a much more plausible scenario than Tokyo Rose's audience laying down their weapons.
And ending the Pax Americana would be a disaster, methinks.
7:33 pm on October 6th, 2010 167
kushibo 162, here's the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article about the woman imprisoned as Tokyo Rose.
Iva Ikuko Toguri D'Aquino (July 4, 1916 – September 26, 2006), was an American citizen who participated in English-language propaganda broadcast transmitted by Radio Tokyo to Allied soldiers in the South Pacific during World War II. Although on the "Zero Hour" radio show, Toguri called herself "Orphan Ann," she quickly became identified with the moniker "Tokyo Rose", a name that was coined by Allied soldiers and that predated her broadcasts. After the Japanese defeat, Toguri was detained for a year by the U.S. military before being released for lack of evidence. Department of Justice officials agreed that her broadcasts were "innocuous". But when Toguri tried to return to the US, a popular uproar ensued, prompting the Federal Bureau of Investigation to renew its investigation of Toguri's wartime activities. She was subsequently charged by the United States Attorney's Office with eight counts of treason. Her 1949 trial resulted in a conviction on one count, making her the seventh American to be convicted on that charge. In 1974, investigative journalists found that key witnesses had lied during testimony. Toguri was pardoned by U.S. President Gerald Ford in 1977.
And here's the whole thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iva_Toguri_D%27Aquin…
9:29 pm on October 6th, 2010 168
"Tokyo Tom", or "Beijing Betty", which one sounds nicer? So which one do you guys prefer?
4:38 am on October 7th, 2010 169
Another phony war vet, this time beating up an old man?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR8p1Dwn918&fe…
5:04 am on October 7th, 2010 170
Whoever that guy is, many Koreans who have seen this video are looking for this guy to beat up on, says the news.
http://www.ytn.co.kr/_ln/0103_201010071935152681
5:15 am on October 7th, 2010 171
Tom,
The problem with military members faking their credentials is getting bigger than I thought.
The problem seems to be spreading.
http://blog.directoryofschools.com/diploma-mill/m…
5:21 am on October 7th, 2010 172
^ ChickenHead, did they also beat up on an old man and bragged they served 6 years in Iraq and killed whole bunch of people? So boo!
It's so typical of Americans… BS bragging…
5:36 am on October 7th, 2010 173
Tomgook says – "Whoever that guy is, many Koreans who have seen this video are looking for this guy to beat up on, says the news."
So typical of Koreans or Chinese or Japanese or…… Which one are you?
10:40 am on October 7th, 2010 174
#170
Actually TOM (aka "TOM", "Tokyo Tom” or “Beijing Betty) is a cow.
His trolling reminds of this Korean saying.
소기의 경일기
He just doesn't get it. I will leave the translation to someone else who's more knowledgable in Korean.
10:41 am on October 7th, 2010 175
Sticks and stones may break my bones but your words will never hurt me.
10:44 am on October 7th, 2010 176
#171
Ughhh, I didn't mean to hurt you. I was just telling zilchy a fact. I guess it must've hurt your feeling. Mooooo…
10:45 am on October 7th, 2010 177
To TOM
I like 'Beijing Betty' better so I will start using that.
cheers.
10:48 am on October 7th, 2010 178
But you guys are in trouble when Naver gets involved. Korean netizens are getting pissed about that old man beating video. It's getting passed around quite good. It's gold mine for USFK public relations. And you wonder why you guys reputation around the world sucks so much. I'm going to sit back and enjoy this side show.
http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&…
10:53 am on October 7th, 2010 179
#174
Sure I'm going to sit back and see where it goes too. No where is my guess.
11:01 am on October 7th, 2010 180
I've emailed the video links and posted them everywhere in the forums. Doing my best to make things happen you all! Aren't you proud of me?
11:04 am on October 7th, 2010 181
#176
Sure Beijing Betty, keep wasting ur time.
11:28 am on October 7th, 2010 182
Beijing Betty, aren't you going to say something back? Have you left for the day or something?