By I just don’t see how the USFK leadership could not have anticipated this happening?
What one U.S. commander described as a “big tsunami” of military families moving to South Korea has forced officials to consider new rules to determine which troops get command sponsorship.
In 2008, the military announced that it would allow more servicemembers to serve in South Korea on longer tours with their families. Since then, the number of command-sponsored troops has more than doubled, from 1,800 to 4,400. Officials say those families have maxed out infrastructure at bases around the peninsula, from schools to medical facilities and even parking spaces.
“We didn’t fully anticipate how popular this program would be,” said 8th Army commander Lt. Gen. Joseph Fil. He said demand has exceeded capacity because of a large influx of families who moved to South Korea last summer. [Stars & Stripes]
In this age of multiple combat deployments it is unlikely that spouses of servicemembers would just sit home back in the US while their loved one is gone for another year. The popularity of this program should have been easily anticipated.
12:02 pm on November 17th, 2010 1
Yeah …. who knows what goes through the heads of the brass. Now if only they'd fricking finished moving all those units to Humphreys already, there is plenty space there to accommodate all the family's. Heck even here in Daegu they've been ramping up for a larger contingent of soldiers.
12:13 pm on November 17th, 2010 2
Boy, I'll say he's dense. Out of 5 tours in Korea, only one was command-sponsored, and getting into that slot involved a lot of dumb luck and scrambling.
1:58 pm on November 17th, 2010 3
@SOMEOTHERGUY….when is the last time you went to Camp Humphreys, or are you there? The infastructure is nowhere CLOSE to being ready to accept any units, yet alone families. Go check it out, I was just there this week and they have YEARS to go before any large number of Soldiers/family members will be able to move there. The construction is on going, but there is more land filling operations going on than anything….gotta get the ground leveled and settled from all those rice patties that used to be there before any building can begin. I gotta agree they didn't plan this out too well as lack of parking, medical appointments in a military facility, commissary/PX shelves being empty…NUMEROUS infastructre issues with so many families being here nowadays. 5 years from now it will be alot better!
2:59 pm on November 17th, 2010 4
i think the same contract company was in charge of USFK and 8th Army Transformation over the past few years so safe to say the debacle was an expensive amount of money for a lot of speculative forecasting which turned out to be off by a lot
8:47 pm on November 17th, 2010 5
“We didn’t fully anticipate how popular this program would be,”
WTF? You idiots trumpeted it from the mountain tops in AREA I for the last 2 years and did nothing except build a half-assed school on Camp Casey. Now we have 500+ full families with a full compliment of yard monkies in tow on a base with no support infrastructure to speak of. You let EVERYONE have a car and made no provisions for traffic or parking. The traffic is so bad near the gates that I am surprised the Koreans have not started protesting.. oh wait… they won't do that since the teachers got the LQA rates bumped by 10k a year and doubled every slumlords income downtown which also screwed everyone who doesn't get LQA by raising their rents across the board. Thanks a lot!!!!
Quick trip to the Commissary for a few things…. not anymore. Budget an hour and expect to park at the golf course and walk half a mile. If you survive the brigades of Battle Cattle you might make it back to your car so you can wait half an hour to get out the gate.
The Assignment of Choice…… My ASS!!!!
10:55 pm on November 17th, 2010 6
@Cloying…It was like that when I was here in 89. Only difference is they were not to many "Battle Cattle" mainly Koreans, Officer's and senior enlisted wives. That PX parking lot has been that size for decades. Instead of POV's filling it, it was military vehicles. IMHO the only
that's changed on Casey is the landscape. Everything else is pretty much the same.
2:38 am on November 18th, 2010 7
Since the command prepared infrastructure so well for such an influx of dependents, I can't wait to see what happens if a realistic NEO/NEMVAC exercise is ever conducted, especially if it involves contacting, collecting, marshaling and moving every dependent north of the Han river.
Note use of the adjective "realistic", as in "duplicating wartime conditions as closely as possible".
I think the decision to extend command sponsorship to guys in 2ID was a nice thing to do, especially as most of those guys have already done multiple tours in the sandboxes. But it adds very little to the division's ability to carry out its wartime mission, and creates an insurmountable burden for commanders who may have to actually roll out of the motor pool and head north. This was always the rationale for limiting command sponsorship.
It's conceivable that somewhere there is a staff study that comes to the conclusion that it would take all of 2ID's combat assets to safely evacuate its own dependents.
2ID guys have always had dependents, and it was not uncommon for American women to come to Korea on their own dime to be with their husbands for a year. Small informal American schools have been running in TDC at various times since the early 1980's. Occasionally SAHS would accept "class B dependents" from 2ID, but it was a hit-or-miss thing.
But in general, all of 2ID's infrastructure was geared to supporting a forward-based infantry division, with very little fat or frills. Anybody who's lived in uninsulated Quonset huts for a few years will tell you that. So anyone who chose to homestead at Camp Casey took this into consideration, and did not expect any more than what was offered.
So the decision to extend command sponsorship to troops stationed north of Seoul had a lot more to do with stuff that has nothing to do with the division's mission.
What I think will happen (unless the budget fairy has already laid aside a lot of money) is that although command sponsorships are allowed, the infrastructure will never, ever be able to take care of the dependent headcount, or actually do much for the quality of life of families. They are not making any new land anymore, as realtors like to say, and if Camp Casey has to broaden its footprint, I don't know where it would be able to step.
4:58 am on November 18th, 2010 8
Osan has gone way downhill but maybe not as bad as Casey. More traffic, more doublewides with 2, 3, I've seen as much as FIVE snot spigots. I'm leaving soon so I'll say it, these posts/bases in Korea are ghettoes in my opinion. Not even mentioning the villes, which are unspeakable anyway. No way I could be active duty in today's military..or GS or contractor are off limits as well. Sure, there's some good money to be had (Funny how I notice almost anyone with a nice paycheck still manages to be broke w/a wasted life to boot) but to be in the military ghetto environment is not worth the price of admission. I'm sending my son to college, if he wanted to join the military (which he does not) I'd say "go ahead, as long as you PROMISE to do only one tour". These guys..these guys who join and end up with the women they end up is maybe the worst of all. How lonely, desperate, dysfunctional are these guys? Marrying ugly bar girls?What is up with that? It's so telling, the whole Post/Base experience where you see all these guys with foreign trash brides or the doublewides from stateside.
Anyway the whole meaning of my post is to point out the posts in Korea have been ruined imo. ymmv.
9:59 am on November 18th, 2010 9
korou i agree and said it on my last trip up to casey where you see philippinos pregnant with one or two kids already in a stroller
the command needs to take some responsbility for these families that are destined to be fail!!!
they put young kids in an environment where the odds are against them from the start
12:40 pm on November 18th, 2010 10
@ 8 and 9-funny, I was just at Humphreys a couple weeks ago and all looked fine. Area IV posts seems ok too, along with Yongsan. Area I has always been ghetto and the last to get upgrades, so using those as indicators of post quality of life in general is irresponsible and misleading. While I do think the command needs to take responsibility for those families, the command has done so since they have to do marriage counseling for every troop under their command that wants to marry a foreign bride. However, for them to dictate who their Soldiers marry is NOT their responsibility. As we often say here concerning other topics, these troops are men, so we treat them that way and let the chips fall where they may.
2:22 pm on November 18th, 2010 11
From what I see these troops are mostly uneducated and emotionally immature. Marrying a human-trafficked girl from the Philippines is an obvious failure at all levels; parenting before joining the military, ZERO leadership while in the military and a lack of concern by all involved.
At the end of my final tour one of the seemingly sharpest troops in the whole unit ended up with one of those filipinose, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw him with her, he probably thought he hit the gold mine. He now fits the stereotypical G.I. in Korea though. Easily seduced by a bar girl, always in a state of denial about what he's getting into, sending money back to her infinitely needy family, draining both his finances and whatever self-worth he might of initially had.
Korean bases and the Villes–I mean damn, how much filthy trash do you have to see before you just turn around and run away?
2:48 pm on November 18th, 2010 12
Burma Bob, #7,
Were you ever in a "Line Unit" in 2 ID? You talk about Combat readiness like some Pogue rempf stuck in HQ.
I was a Tank Commander in 2 ID!! The readiness of my unit was pitiful as compared to a unit say someplace like Germany. The cause was personnel turnover, nobody was here long enough to know what was going on. Finally we can get Tank Crews who have been here for a while, know the lay of the land, work as a team and are effectively trained ..as a team.
Dude, I am disgusted when someone talks about a "Combat ready 2 ID" from years past.
My job daily as an experienced Tank Commander trained in America, and Germany, was watching over a simple task that took the soldiers in Korea 4 times as long as normal. KATUSA's, Privates, "hell damn" 1 year together, maybe 8 months, achieve the Basic required Standard of Training requirements, never achieving the normally seen standards in set in training stateside or Europe.
I gives a DAMN if my Crew has a Drinky gUrl down town or a whore on the side, just so he knows his JOB!!! Oh, and comes to work every day on time!!!
Stability!!! Is what a lot of us have said is the biggest problem with Combat readiness in 2ID for a Loooong time.
4:09 pm on November 18th, 2010 13
You guys do realize what the first mission of the maneuver brigade in Korea is, right? It is NEO. Been that way for a while. So before they can "fight tonight" they must evac all the dependents. I'm not joking.
4:30 pm on November 18th, 2010 14
#13 Leon, you are right about that. Checking addresses and number of dependents was a funtion of mine during one tour. I could see that it wasn't going to funtion as advertised.
Later in 2002 I was in 2ID. Whenever the CO would start in on the "fight tonight" crap, it was all I could do to maintain a straight face.
But Ole Tanker is right about the "stability" problem. Not much you can do in a 10 month tour.
I'm shaking my head as I think of some of the so called leadership that filtered in and out. Glad the civilians knew what they were doing. No birds would have flown without them. (shaking head again)
4:35 pm on November 18th, 2010 15
@3 That was the point I was making. The construction was supposed to be done already but they keep getting delay after delay. Personal experience tells me its just Korean construction companies milking the system. They can simultaneously construct two super department stores and 20+ story high rises but can't seem to build a military base.
@12, I agree that turn over was always the worst part of team building in SK. It takes months to mold / train a group of soldiers to be a highly effective team. In any group of eight there is usually two that are "on the way out" and two more who just got here.
9:35 pm on November 18th, 2010 16
What kills me more than the American doublewides and flipper wives are the old timers who bitch and bitch and bitch about this place, but never leave. Get over it already and step the @uck out if you don't like it.
And let people marry whoever in the hell they want to marry. Again, get over it.
2:45 am on November 19th, 2010 17
Yes, Ole Tanker, I was in a 2ID line unit for 4 (involuntary, didn't beg branch) tours. 10 months of each tour on average spent on OP's/AOP's or radar sites well inside the buffer zone. I never met anybody from 1/72 Armor while I was up there; it wasn't tank country, as I recall.
But yes, personnel stability was one argument made for expanded command sponsorship. I think some BN commanders had the option of coming to Korea command-sponsored, with the first year spent in command in 2ID, and the remainder spent in a staff position at Yongsan. That's as far as it got.
For whatever reason, nobody ever thought to institute the system employed in Afghanistan and Iraq, where entire units train together, then rotate in & out of theater. But it would have disrupted 2ID's system of regiments, (9th, 23rd, 38th, etc).
4:44 am on November 19th, 2010 18
"At the end of my final tour one of the seemingly sharpest troops in the whole unit ended up with one of those filipinose, I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw him with her, he probably thought he hit the gold mine. He now fits the stereotypical G.I. in Korea though. Easily seduced by a bar girl, always in a state of denial about what he’s getting into, sending money back to her infinitely needy family, draining both his finances and whatever self-worth he might of initially had.
Korean bases and the Villes–I mean damn, how much filthy trash do you have to see before you just turn around and run away?"
Wow, I've never read a more brutally honest(and totally correct) post than this. Most people don't want to read the truth though.
5:00 am on November 19th, 2010 19
Yeah, those American bases in Korea sure do have their own unique charm. It's even better now that they've filled them up with dependents and their rug rats.
Ah, the charm to be in Korea, the pollution blocking out the sunlight, the wandering old retirees hanging out together because they can't stand their black marketeering Korean wives, the young guys with their filipino brides and baby carriages, "beautiful" women everwhere -they're NOT total trash like most people think- 95% divorce rates, absolutely no work getting done yada yada.
Yep. a veritable shan-gri-la places like Casey, Yongsan, and country bumpkin Osan.
To all you young, single GI's you must HURRY up and get stationed there as fast as you can!
6:49 am on November 19th, 2010 20
I didn't read all the comments but I don't know why folks are so down on Filipina women sending household money back to their family in the Philippines. For better or worse, this is an important lifeline for the family back home, and Filipina women abroad of all classes, all types of job, in all sorts of overseas locations do this.
There are advantages to this, too. Even if they're young, some of them attain a family matriarch-like status when they do this (according to demography and sociology research on the subject, at least). If the money they send back is invested or used wisely, it can even provide a comfortable post-retirement living environment for the GIs. True in at least some of the cases I've heard about.
7:59 am on November 19th, 2010 21
Great points Kushibo, but I'm afraid that your logic and reasoning will be lost on some of these people.
Why do you guys think these girls work in bars? Why did young Korean girls do it before the Filipinas showed up? Why do young girls in the PI, Thailand and other countries throughout Asia continue to work in sleazy bars servicing old white geezers who think their studs?
Do you really believe they do it because they like it? I personally have more respect for the "trash" girls in the bars than I do for the people who constantly poke fun at them for doing nothing more than trying to take care of their families.
How anyone can ignore the underlying socioeconomic factors that put the girl in the trash bar in the first place, and gives the old white geezer economic power over them, is simply beyond my comprehension.
8:40 am on November 19th, 2010 22
21 Ronald, you are more perceptive than most commenting here, along with Kushibo. I can only conclude that most here, have seen the problem relationships, but not the successful ones.
Therefore a type of racism takes over and all the PI girls fall into one easy box.
One thing is sure; they come from a poor country with little if any possibilities for improvement—except to marry out of it.
The odds makers say there must be some good ones worth the time effort and cost.
(no relationship with a woman is cheap or easy) regardless of where you found her.
You will always PAY. If you're lucky, she will be worth it, regardless of her race or where you found her.
Heard this somewhere: "I fear women — and spiders. And spider-women!" Just can't forget that line.
10:09 am on November 19th, 2010 23
TINSTAFL!
(There Is No Such Thing As Free Love)
10:59 am on November 19th, 2010 24
Retired GI writes- 21 Ronald, you are more perceptive than most commenting here, along with Kushibo. I can only conclude that most here, have seen the problem relationships, but not the successful ones.
I met my wife 22 years ago while serving at Subic Bay. She wasn't a bar girl but she had cousins who had been. Including the one who introduced us.
The women worked at the bars because they were desperate for a life without poverty. I'm not saying some servicemen didn't get screwed, but that it often went both ways.
Bill(One of ROK Drop's contributors)
11:34 am on November 19th, 2010 25
How did this thread get hijacked by the "We hate Filipinas" crowd?
The Command Sponsorship Program is created for those Military families who are coming to Korea for a normal tour of duty. Just like in Europe or Japan.
I know many tankers, like myself who married Korean women, have families and love duty in Korea. Just like folks in Germany. (Yes, I know this is a Korea blog) Ok, Just like folks in Japan.
The point is, the Army is trying to normalize the tours in Korea.
I know many folks who want to stay in the "1 year" at a time mode. 50's, 60's and 70's Army. "You gotta local girl? OMG, boy we gonna make it hard for you to gets married."…"Don foget you gonna maintain a room in da baaaaraks."…"If the Army wanted you to have a wife………"
Treat men like men they will act like men. Treat men like boys they will act like boys.
11:47 am on November 19th, 2010 26
Talk about a threadjack.But back to the subject at hand: the ommisary aisles are now WAAAAAAaaaay too narrow to facilitate the dependents (even one of them).
12:02 pm on November 19th, 2010 27
Burma Bob @17
The Army did try a Cohort unit program in the late 80'-early 90's. Whole units rotated overseas together, I know a guy was in a Cohort and got stuck in Korea, stop loss, in Desert Storm.
The program didn't work out. IMO because the American practice of "up or out" doesnt work in this kind of unit. How long does an E4 want to stay E4 or E7 stay E7.
At least a Command Sponsorship program provides some level of stability to units.
12:16 pm on November 19th, 2010 28
I recall reading in an earlier post that military personnel get extra money for each dependent. Is that correct? What's the logic behind that?
12:18 pm on November 19th, 2010 29
A final thought on the PI bargirls.
The hate isn't because of the girls or the PI. The hate is because of the system… the system that is designed to cheat GIs in every way… financially to emotionally…
…and there is hate because so many of these girls run with that… and instead of looking for a better long-term life, they lie, cheat and steal at every chance… even needlessly after the stability of marriage has been achieved and they have that "better life" everyone excuses their actions with.
More families probably means fewer juicies. It will be interesting to see what crappy system replaces it.
12:28 pm on November 19th, 2010 30
Bill #24, So may I assume that you are AGREEING with me?
Your personal example sounds like you are.
Most individuals here do not hear that type of story. Glad you shared!
My little sweety in Samar called me one hour ago. Had a good time talking with her and her sister. I plan to go there for her birthday in Febuary. Known her since march of 2009.
Any advice from YOU would be welcome. Example: What is the deal with pig ears? Doesn't sound good to me but she loves them. Thankfully she also likes kimchi. But there is no way she is going to eat Balut around this ole man. She thinks that is really funny.
( I surely miss the days of Clark ) I would have paid to live on that base compared to what we had at Humphreys in 88-92.
I was there in June of 91 also. Went to subic. Didn't SEE much of Subic.
Nice to hear about one that worked!
12:48 pm on November 19th, 2010 31
I know so many got damned stories about this and that it's not even funny. My last tour both E-7's in my office married a bar girl from the Korean ville. This is after they already had been divorced from other filipinas. That's the thing with these guys, 90% of these guys are on their 2nd or 3rd foreign bride. The pickin's sure are slim, it's neat to see how low they'll go. JFC man, you're going to marry ANOTHER ONE.
Oh, one of those guys met his first filipina wife via PEN PAL! Well, he went to visit her in her little villiage and the whole family was so excited to see him, yada, yada. After they married she got caught (as a cashier) helping her other filipina steal little shit by not running it through the scanner. Something worth like 5 or 10 bucks. Camera got her but she yelled and cried and screamed it was a mistake even though they had her on several incidents. They arrested her, she got a day in the pokey and never admitted to it but was found appropriately guilty, fined and fired.
Then, then OMG I forgot about this!..the dumb guy stayed married to her and one day she acted funny about a phone call she got at an inordinate time. He originally didn't suspect her but her expression was so suspicious he started checking into it and sure enough she had been doing it with an E-3 from..wait for it..the NCO CLUB! Oh God, he still stayed married to her lol!
Eventually he finally got a divorce and married the new filipina. Funny she was kinda flirty, go figure.
1:23 pm on November 19th, 2010 32
Sonagi@28
The American military probably has one of the most unfair pay scales in the world!
You may think, "Equal work for equal pay." as a Democratic principle. No my friend far from it.
In the American military, a Private 1st Class (PFC) might make $2000 a month. That is if he/she is not married with dependants.
In the Army, such a soldier must live on post and eat in the Army Dining facility.
Ah, but if that PFC gets married??? now the Military gives him/her money to pay rent for a house or apartment, what is that about $1000 a month? Oh, don't forget food, as an added bonuse, before mentioned soldier can eat when and where they chose , so the recieve another allowance…over $300 a month!
So, the married PFC soldier makes $1300 more over and above the unmarried soldier. Plus the benefit of living in their own apartment, free from harrassment or pesky inspoections by leaders.
And yet, we ask ourselves, Why? On God's great Earth (take note Laporte) would a young soldier marry a Filipina.
The choices: 1. Stay single in the barracks, making $2000 a month, being micromanaged 24/7 by nosey NCO's.
2. Get married, make $3300 a month, live in a nice apartment, eat what I want, have p8ssy when I want.
The Choice is tough for a young kid to make.
Command Sponsorship, might just stop a little bit of the money for marriage bonus, at least the $ will be going to good ole USDA Battle Cattle, not some Flip biaatch.
2:49 pm on November 19th, 2010 33
Agree with the equal work/equal pay argument up to a point, but you have to admit that a single E-5 living in the barracks has a lot more freedom and disposable income than a married E-6 with 2-3 kids.
And as for the nookie and all that, "Why buy a cow when milk is cheap"?
3:23 pm on November 19th, 2010 34
32 ole tanker, I am SO happy to know that I am not the only one that sees this.
As an E5 at campbell back in the 80's I lived in barracks while my troops went home to the wife. I got (hay you'ed) all the time for duties while my lower ranked troops were in their own place off base making as much as me with the extra pay and allowances.
When I went for a loan to buy my first house there, I had to sign papers showing to the fact that I knew I would get no extra pay. (didn't expect any) I wasn't MARRIED!
Talk about your prostitution.
THEN they wonder why the divorce rate is so high. Not like the marriage was INTENDED to last.
Lets not forget the young and dumb that get married right before deployment to Iraq to a female (american) they have known for a couple of months. While he is doing his duty, she (american) is spending it as fast as it shows up. He returns and BAM, divorced—empty account—credit card-s maxed.
I look forward to reading about gay military divorce also. That's going to be a hoot.
Marriage is little more than legalized prostitution MOST of the time. Done for money or status. Anything but l lo lov I can't even type the word.
While I'm on this rant, If women and men are truely equal, marriage no longer has a legitimate function. It does however have a controlling funtion. Face it. Two people living together—someone is in control and someone isn't. It might not be the same one that brings home the check either. (or the larger check)
I know someone is going to say they have a perfect marriage and all is great. (Guess your significant other is REALLY good at the game) No. No. You're right.
4:02 pm on November 19th, 2010 35
Retired GI wrote:
Therefore a type of racism takes over and all the PI girls fall into one easy box.
Social psychologists might say there is "cognitive distortion" at work here.
Simply put, it's a common cognitive exercise to take special note of negative interactions, situations, or outcomes we see, while neutral or positive ones go unregistered because they're unremarkable. You remember the bad cases, sometimes to the point where we anticipate the bad cases and then start to believe (consciously or subconsciously) that they're the norm. At some point, some are so caught up in reinforcing this distorted view that they go searching out such cases, to satisfy themselves that they are correct in their thinking.
Sometimes race-based cognitive distortion comes into play when we see a negative behavior from a person of a different race/ethnicity and connect or conflate the two (that ethnic group, that bad behavior), but when we see the same or similar negative behavior from someone of the same race/ethnicity as ourselves (or of the haloed majority) the connection is not made (that bad behavior by that person). We rack up race/ethnicity-associated negative association points for other groups but not our own.
Cognitive distortion. Everybody does it to some degree. Something to watch out for.
4:43 pm on November 19th, 2010 36
Before I joined the US Army I lived in Daly City, CA which had a large Filipino-American community. Some of those women looked like goddesses but the women that I have seen who have worked in the 'buy me drinkee' bars I would not pay them to tell me the time of day.
6:28 pm on November 19th, 2010 37
And yet, we ask ourselves, Why? On God’s great Earth (take note Laporte) would a young soldier marry a Filipina.
Noted sir!
12:11 am on November 20th, 2010 38
25 Kushibo, I like that. I'm going to write that on a 3×5 and keep it in the wallet. Repeat it to those that need a clearer understanding.
37 Leon, it is a good note. If I were a young soldier today —-
11:37 am on November 20th, 2010 39
Back to the topic of how they couldn't anticipate: #1 said Now if only they’d fricking finished moving all those units to Humphreys already, there is plenty space there to accommodate all the family’s."
First, they couldn't anticipate it because we're being led by a bunch of political idiots with their heads up their 4th point of contact. You want to know about the NEW Humphreys? All buildings and parking are being design with occupation INCLUDING parking based on previous population numbers, ie…. NOT normalized tours. So the brilliant leadership is exporting every problem from Yongsan to Humphreys. For instance, parking @ the hump is being designed based on certain assumptions such as no one below E-6 driving, and no extra dependents. Capacity at AAFES and the Commissary is based on CURRENT population levels (actually, 2007 and before levels). So as soon as you get to the hump, there will be no place to park and every facility is over crowded.
Why you ask? Because the brilliant leaders approved the tour normalization WITHOUT the funding for the extra support facilities, and in the case of the hump, the U.S. won't go back to the ROKs to ask for more money for the hump because the ROKs will say 'we already negotiated this'. The U.S. leaders know this, they know they have a problem, but they just stick their heads in the ground, finish their tour, and move on.
11:47 am on November 20th, 2010 40
I don't agree with the Filipina bashing. Sure it's flippies now, but it was Russians before, and before that Koreans (I've enjoyed them all
). It happens all over the world, and the screwing goes BOTH ways.
For every young GI that got 'stuck' or 'trapped' with a girl, there is also a GI that was married but still went to the ville, started a relationship, had a kid, then ran back home, leaving yet another generation with no support. Just so he could get his rocks off.
I understand the motivation of the juicies; it's called needing money. The motivation of the GI? Tired of spanking the monkey. Which one is right?
For every juicy that got tricked into the bar, there is a juicy on her second or third tour.
For every GI that ran down to the ville to cheat on his wife/gf back home, there is a GI that ran down to the ville, had a beer, and controlled himself.
It is not a racial thing, so no need to single out flippies. There are bad induhviduals on both sides.
3:06 am on November 21st, 2010 41
Soooooo… If the numbers used for infrastructure building are way off, then we can assume that the numbers for non-combatant evacuation are off-base as well?
3:28 am on November 21st, 2010 42
41 BURMA BOB —- Yes Sir! You can COUNT ON IT. Always could, so plan for it.
9:07 am on November 21st, 2010 43
NEO has always been a joke. The first problem is that the decision is made by the State Department, not USFK. In 1995 everything got really hot, and everyone who could leave did so, including Korean and US dependents. You couldn't get a plane out for 3 months. But, no word from the State Dept., not even a message of concern like they release on all hot spots. What State says: "If we call NEO then it would panic the local population." Ummm, if you don't, U.S. dependents will die! State doesn't care because if they never call NEO in time and dependents die, then State will just blame the evacuation plan as flawed, not their call.
On a side note, USFK is responsible for evacuating non-combatants for 16 different NATO countries. So not only do you have all of the U.S. people showing up, now you have 16 more nationalities that aren't registered and don't speak English. When you go to NEO this time, ask them where the German, French, and Italian translators would be? Well, maybe even an Australian translator too…..
can't understand a word they say! LOL And where is the capacity to handle a few thousand more?
9:30 am on November 21st, 2010 44
When everything got really hot in 1995, some of us English teachers got ahold of a map of directions to Songtan Airbase. We were advised that US citizens could be evacuated from there. Does USFK, in fact, have any plans for evacuation of nonmilitary US citizens, which would have to include not only longtime US resident taxpayers like me but also birth tourism babies, student visa babies, and other longtime Korean residents with US passports?
10:01 am on November 21st, 2010 45
#44
The short answer is no. The military only has formal plans and has made preparations for the evacuations of military and civilian family members and non-combatant civilian employees registered in the NEO program. But you know what they say about plans? I can easily imagine how even that can turn into a cluster-f#@k if hostilities start suddenly and violently.
All other Americans in Korea, or in any foreign country, for extended stays, would be advised to register for advisory and alert messages from the US Embassy's in that country.
11:12 am on November 21st, 2010 46
#44
I must agree with JoeC 100% here. In 95 when I was walking the ville looking for dependent addresses, I saw right away how badly this would go. Even without the non-military such as yourself, flooding the gates. Good luck to you if it happens.
Have a plan (other than) Osan for getting out. Forget the highway and train also.
A few thousand Koreans will already have those areas swamped.
Go south. Best way you can. In as small a group as you can. Off road.
(GET OUT OF SEOUL) Just in case that really needed to be said. Take WATER with you and food. Travel light.
But nothings going to happen. Planes don't crash into building. Aircraft carriers can not be attacked by air. Man will never fly. The world is flat.
Seriously—What could possibly go wrong?
Laugh if you must.
11:23 am on November 21st, 2010 47
USFK has the mission to evacuate all Americans, not just SOFA Americans; plus citizens from 16 NATO countries.
By the agreement, anyone could show up at the front gate during NEO with the correct passport and get evacuated. Just to test this about 10 years ago the DPTMS had some British citizens show up at the gate during a NEO exercise (in Area I, not Yongsan). To their credit, the MPs recognized them as an evacuation category and escorted them to the processing center. Would that happen today? Who knows, but I'm guessing probably not.
The Americans have all of the modes of transportation ready, but how will they go? What they don't have is a good plan like the ROKs. The ROKs already plan to lead every convoy with a bulldozer and cherry picker to push or move the traffic as necessary. Where is the U.S. planning on this? They aren't! After all, when the ROK has their little drill every month all of the traffic nicely moves over just like trained. When the bullets are flying and people are dying, I'm sure they'll do the same thing so the U.S. convoy can pass, right?
11:27 am on November 21st, 2010 48
Retired GI wrote:
Once you get across the Han, plan to take 국도 highways as side roads and zigzag yourself away from Seoul, south, then east, then southeast.
In addition to water and food, have a GPS unit.
10:30 pm on November 22nd, 2010 49
#45 Addition
Here is an example of an Embassy Advisory:
11:57 pm on November 22nd, 2010 50
Ho-hum.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Unlike the last war in Korea, the chance of North Korea physically getting their soldiers and equipment in a position to occupy the peninsula is almost non-existent.
Between satellites, aircraft and generally superior equipment, lines of North Korean tanks or fleets of landing craft just can't be kept a secret… and can't really complete their mission even if they somehow are.
If I lived in Seoul, with a real danger of being shelled, I'd have a motorcycle with a few cans of gas attached, American cash, some food and water and a weapon… in case another civilian mistakenly thought they wanted my equipment more than I did. I'd also have a place to go… a friend's country house, for example.
In any other place, I'd probably just stay put… spend a couple hundred dollars per family member and follow the instructions on a survivalist website.
In fact, that's what I did years ago.
My biggest concern would be keeping a low profile to avoid the attention of the other 47,999,999 Koreans who aren't prepared for a major social/economic/supply/infrastructre disruption…
…although I'd be available to exchange some extra food that I might happen to have for some of that inedible gold they have lying around. My wife frowns on a teenage daughter-based barter economy in my survival strategy… so that's out.
I know where I WOULDN'T go… any place associated with USFK. While I have no worry of North Korean tanks rolling down Main Street (or would that be Joongang-ro) of Anytown, South Korea, any real action on the part of North Korea will start with a devastating act of sabotage against military bases in South Korea… as asymmetrical warfare is really their only chance.
As for Pusan, that would be the mother of all clusterfunks… for foreigners and Koreas alike… with the real potential of the port and airport being targets of evacuation-stopping sabotage/attack… and a shortage of food, water and shelter, for the influx of panicked refugees.
Play your cards right, and you end up like Basie in Empire of the Sun. Play them wrong and you die in a gas attack on the Osan flightline or trampled to death on an overloaded and capsizing ferry trying to maneuver around the burning hulks in Pusan Harbor.
Well… that's a theory, at least. Anybody have a (worthwhile) opinion on all that?
12:17 am on November 23rd, 2010 51
The real fight hasn't even begun yet, and the Americans are already plotting how to runaway to safety.
I'm enjoying this panic. Meanwhile, South Koreans just go on living their merry way.
12:19 am on November 23rd, 2010 52
If all hell broke loose, any significant fighting would be over in a few weeks if not days.
Mobile North Koreans would be barely able to hold any positions much less occupy anything. They would pretty much be running headlong suicide missions to destroy anything in their paths before they got chewed up.
If I were anywhere South of Seoul, I would find an isolated area off the main routes, hunker down and wait it out.
But since I am retired, I'd just go on base and sign up for Space-A.
12:23 am on November 23rd, 2010 53
#51
You are obviously not in Korea now. The Koreans I meet are anxious about it.
1:31 am on November 23rd, 2010 54
51 You might live to eat those words while many US and ROK soldiers die protecting your country while you are studying abroad. I don't like name calling but you sir are a douche bag.
Don't you have some additional service requirement, come home and protect your precious country. Or, perhaps you do not feel as strongly about it as you say.
1:43 am on November 23rd, 2010 55
Leon, that's an insult to Douche bags.
1:46 am on November 23rd, 2010 56
#54, relax. There is going to be no war. It's isolated to an area which is disputed. It's just a skirmish. Life goes on. Why would I drop everything here and rush into there just because Americans are panicking over a skirmish? The only ones who have died are ROK's, but no Americans, yet it's the Americans who are in a total panic.
1:49 am on November 23rd, 2010 57
50, ChickenHead, you are a wise man with a good plan. (the teenage daughter-barter system will not likely be needed)
If it get serious, it will do so quickly and end just as quickly. The level of damage to Seoul is really the only question.
The panicked Korean civilians will be the main threat after any bombardment that Seoul might receive.
The ROK did nothing after the ship attack. The ROK will do nothing now. Seoul is in the crosshairs if they do.
Glad I'm not active duty in Korea right now. I'm sure the so called military leadership is crapping their pants. UH-60's are buzzing around like bees. Troops are standing by the wire at Osan. Ville is off limits.
Katusa's are planning their escape.
Contractors are wondering why they didn't take that job in Kuwait.
2:17 am on November 23rd, 2010 58
Here's the escape for the Americans.
Run south for your life!
2:19 am on November 23rd, 2010 59
There is no elevated threat condition on the local base. Everyone is at routine readiness. No one has changed their plans for the 4 day Thanksgiving weekend starting tomorrow.
Happy Turkey Day
2:24 am on November 23rd, 2010 60
That's good to hear JoeC. Hope it stays that way.
2:42 am on November 23rd, 2010 61
Tom wrote:
2:46 am on November 23rd, 2010 62
Ending accidental blockquoting
3:57 am on November 23rd, 2010 63
I said it was in an "area". I didn't say the island was disputed. Can you even read, White Chinese?
3:58 am on November 23rd, 2010 64
"There is no elevated threat condition on the local base. Everyone is at routine readiness. No one has changed their plans for the 4 day Thanksgiving weekend starting tomorrow.
Happy Turkey Day"
That's so typical of Americans. Koreans are dying from war, and Americans are going to have their turkey dinners. So typical.
4:03 am on November 23rd, 2010 65
Tom at 8:46 a.m.:
Tom at 10:58 a.m.:
Just go away.
You are a troll. Agitprop probably, maybe a sociopath, obviously a racist with deep-seated issues (which would be true even if you are a Mizar), but most definitely a troll. You apparently cannot de-troll the way you participate in this list, so just go away, troll.
4:20 am on November 23rd, 2010 66
Tom wrote:
No, the area around the island is not disputed either. See the map here.
Your statement…
… is not that of a KoKo at all.
The likelihood a KoKo would dismiss this as merely a "disputed area" is only slightly less likely than one declaring that Tokto is nothing more than a bunch of guano-stained rocks. The NLL dispute does not extend to the Yŏnpyŏng-do Islands nor to the waters around them that got shelled.
Agitprop, plain and simple. And poorly researched agitprop at that.
The pro-Beijing angle is sometimes subtle, sometimes not, but it certainly is not reflective of recent South Korean nationalist or pragmatist inclinations:
This kind of thing gives it away. The problem is that he just can't help himself:
Virtually no KoKo thinks like this. Tom is here for a reason, which is to drive a wedge between South Koreans and Americans, plain and simple. This is the Pyongyang-led chinboista motivation, too, except that the pro-Pyongyang crowd doesn't like the idea of rushing into China's arms, either. China is hated #2 or #3 by chinboistas, depending on how strong their feeling is about Japan. The nationalist leftist rhetoric in Korea, the chinboista mantra, is for self-sufficiency in the face of all these sharks.
5:08 am on November 23rd, 2010 67
Tom wrote:
North Korea attacked our islands, killed two of our military personnel, wounded civilians, and set a bunch of houses ablaze. What's the big deal?
Your bio has no credibility. If you really are a South Korean, then you are a sociopath. I fear for the church-going kyopo coeds in the greater Toronto area.
Obfuscation. I did not say North Korea is not claiming anything. In fact, I provided a map in #66 that shows what North Korea claims.
But the islands of Yŏnpyŏng-do and the surrounding waters that North Korea shelled are not part of the North Korea claim. In fact, North Korea's claim even grants a South Korean water corridor through its claim south of the NLL to the islands of Yŏnpyŏng-do and their surrounding waters.
6:08 am on November 23rd, 2010 68
"North Korea attacked our islands, "
Excuse me, who's islands? You're in Hawaii, and you're a former ESL teacher.
That's not your island.
"I provided a map in #66 that shows what North Korea claims."
That's the point, the island is near the area of the disputed claims. Fights for the disputed claims are going to happen, whether you like it or not, and it will effect the islands around that area – doesn't matter if its South Korean or North Korean.
Come back and blabber again once North Korea crosses or barrages the DMZ. Until then, it's just another border clash – no matter what panic you're trying to create. I'm betting my money that you're another one of those westerners with an axe to grind, who wants to cause a panic and bring down Korea's economy. I think you're the true Beijing agitprop. What is your true agenda here?
6:24 am on November 23rd, 2010 69
Tom wrote:
Not my islands. An island of the collective South Korean "we," of which I am a part, through family connections, through ownership of land in South Korea, and through my taxpaying status. And no, I'm not a former ESL teacher.
Wrong, troll. This is not a fight for the disputed claim. The area they attacked is NOT a disputed claim. It was an attack on military and civilian targets in an area that is NOT disputed by North Korea. And no, it was not an attack on a disputed area that inadvertently spilled over into undisputed territory. It was solely on undisputed territory. Same as with the Ch'ŏnan attack.
Go away, troll.
This is the same as a barrage on the DMZ. Worse, in fact, because it was against civilians. As for the panic, if you actually had relatives in Seoul to ask about this, the panic is there with or without me posting anything.
Look, disphit. Just about everything of value I own is in Seoul, minus the TV and the Honda I have here in Honolulu. My home, my life savings, my car, my books, the pictures of my nephews and nieces, etc., are all there in Seoul.
Go away, you sociopathic troll.
11:45 am on November 23rd, 2010 70
Or there’s another possibility you have not considered.
I am Bin Laden.
Before you take that seriously I am just kidding. 
It’s a fact that North Koreans are claiming the waters around that area. So what’s that big deal? Are you denying North Korea is not claiming anything?
1:20 pm on November 23rd, 2010 71
This conversation took a logical progression from command sponsorship to evacuation procedures to comments on the latest North Korean attack.
Then, as so many of them do now, it turned to Tom and China and agiprop speculation… and the quality of conversation dropped to pointless tittering trying to explain that Tom is a dummy.
In a way, Tom is to blame for this disruption… but, then again, he is just trolling for the reactions he gets from people who are too stupid to realize they are the butt of a manipulative joke.
The real fault for ruining this blog belongs to the people who take Tom seriously (while claiming that he shouldn't be taken seriously) and babble on with dull, pointless, and repetitive responses. And these people are starting to outnumbering the long-term thoughtful commenters… who are posting less and less.
Topics of true interest get little-to-no discussion… such as, what are the possible targets and effects of a real North Korean attack and what is the best strategy to deal with it as a dependent, resident, or Korean family member.
That's information we can all use… and any intelligent additions by smart or informed people that give everyone a clear understanding of the situation make this blog a valuable tool.
But, no. It has become Tom's ESL Cafe.
So…
From now on, anybody who comments, evokes, brings up, discusses, responds or hints about Tom is going to get messed with mercilessly.
Kushibo,
If you want to continue your gay love spat with Tom, take it to your own blog. Stop polluting every topic here with speculation on Tom's agenda… which makes you sound stupider and stupider and less thoughtful every time you touch your keyboard.
Marcus Ambrose,
"I wasn’t going to reply, but Tom"… good. Don't. But you did. And because your post was dumbed down to talk to Tom like a child, you sound as stupid as Kushibo.
Leon LaPorte,
Even you, who have contributed pages of great posts, have stopped writing anything of value… with your big contribution here being a good finger-pointing and a indignant "douche bag". What's next? Sky=blue? Grass=green?
WTF, people?
Let's all say it together one last time and move on.
"Tom is a racist, nationalistic, douche bag troll."
Now let him go.
1:24 pm on November 23rd, 2010 72
I think I'm in love with you, too, Chickenhead.
1:50 pm on November 23rd, 2010 73
Me too!
1:51 pm on November 23rd, 2010 74
ChickenHead wrote:
Please note that my first interaction with Tom (#61) was nothing more than correcting inaccurate information he was putting forward. Note how his response (#63) is quite different from, say, The Marmot when I did the same:
Tom is a corrosive participant here who sets out to undo the threads no matter what direction they take, even if that causes him, in this case, to go in two opposite directions and say something rather offensive to anyone who gives a rat's ass about the people dying or being shot at right now.
I am more than happy to engage Tom on the issues if he actually wants to do that. But as we've seen time and time again, that's not why he's here. Even if you don't agree with me that he's Beijing agitprop, it's clear that he is not the average KoKo studying abroad he makes himself out to be. Since wielding his fake bio is one of his tools for trying to drive a wedge of distrust and animosity between the US military community in Korea and the South Koreans that USFK are allied with, I see no problem as a Seoulite civilian associated with USFK to call him out on that where necessary. I try to keep my comments focused on dispelling his fabrications, pointing out his obfuscations, and concisely addressing his machinations, and nothing more.
If you don't like it, then you take it to your own blog. Then when I go there, I'll follow your rules of engagement as you see fit. If at the ChickenHead Times we're not supposed to call people trolls or point out what appear to be likely ulterior motives when they deliberately try to mislead other commenter or derail topic threads, then I'll abide by your rules on your blog, ChickenHead.
2:47 pm on November 23rd, 2010 75
Kushibo,
Since you seem to have missed something (in life), let me explain it to you.
"Please note that my first interaction with Tom (#61) was nothing more than correcting inaccurate information he was putting forward."
Be aware that Tom (and his type) INTENTIONALLY put forth a lot of "inaccurate information" because it is easier and more expedient than a well-researched and well-thought out post when the goal is getting attention.
While I enjoy your intelligent thoughts on everything from the professionally poor (disagree) to the successes of Korea (agree), watching you constantly chew on Tom's one-line "inaccurate information" bait while he sets the stupid-hook to pull pages of indignant huffing and puffing from you is… well… rather sad and disappointing.
As you, and others, have so often stated, Tom is a troll. Tom is looking for reaction. Tom is stupid. Tom is a liar. Tom isn't taken seriously. Tom isn't who he says he is. Tom has an agenda.
So why do you all follow his wishes and come off looking like his biitches?
I don't get it.
But I'm going to try to stop it.
Nothing personal, Kushibo. I'll be happy to hear your views on not-Tom-related issues even if I completely disagree.
4:34 pm on November 23rd, 2010 76
I wasn’t going to reply, but Tom, here is a direct example of your agiprop ways:
You say #51: “I’m enjoying this panic. Meanwhile, South Koreans just go on living their merry way”
Then on #64: “That’s so typical of Americans. Koreans are dying from war, and Americans are going to have their turkey dinners. So typical.”
Look, you’re just an idiot with no life. You can’t say how the Americans are panicking and the South is merry, then claim offense that the Americans are happy while the South is dying. Dude, at least pick one position or the other.
This whole crap is caused by a few facts: 1) North sank South ship, and the South did nothing. So, the North knows they can get away with it. 2) The North advertised their new nuclear station, and this is a warning not to screw with it. Which the South won’t.
Bottom line: The South has far more to lose than the North in event of elevated hostilities, and everyone knows it, so the North will continue to play the card.
Everyone also knows it is entirely unlikely the North could actually make it all the way to Seoul and occupy it. They could damage it, and kill a lot of people, but they don’t have the fuel, equipment, or ammo to actually take Seoul. This is why the South won’t respond, the North isn’t a threat to actually invade, they can only harass, and the South will let them as long as things are kept ‘reasonable’. Reasonable in this case is defined as “sinking a ship and killing 30 or 40 men, or some action less than that”.
5:14 pm on November 23rd, 2010 77
ChickenHead wrote:
Tom does not always troll. Sometimes he writes something that is genuinely worth reading and responding to; other times his first half is a worthy comment and the second half is troll. He's a minotaum.
The fact is that the inaccuracy he made in #56, which I corrected in #61, was the same inaccuracy made by none other than The Marmot himself, so it was by no means a clear trolling attempt. And, in fact, if what Tom had said had been accurate, then it's arguable he'd have a valid point. Possibly. In other words, it was worth responding to on the off chance it was one of those times he was trying to be reasonably civil.
I don't think Tom's agenda was to get his agenda discovered. I stand by my attempts to deflate his repeated attempts to use his fake persona to drive a wedge between two groups I hope and feel could be better partners if misunderstandings can be bridged.
Kachi kapshida, CH.
5:25 pm on November 23rd, 2010 78
ChickenHead wrote:
You do realize, don't you, that you yourself keep defining Tom as a troll. And while trolls are typically removed temporarily or permanently from various sites because of the very things you complain about, for some reason you seem to put the onus on everyone but Tom. You want to control everyone else's online behavior but Tom's.
Why suffer a troll? For what purpose?
For me, better than banning Tom, better than browbeating everyone but Tom into not responding to Tom, I'd prefer that Tom be made simply to comment without trolling. I'm just not so certain anymore that he's able or willing to do that. And that's too bad.
2:17 pm on December 1st, 2010 79
Well let me say. They hyped up Korea as duty of choice . Yea right. The commands screw soliders over so bad. Most soldiers work till late late hours weekends and all some guys are either working late or on duty all the time…There is no space in daycare's for children and the school oh there's about 25-30 kids per room. New apartments yea…well everything starts falling apart ..Rent is outrageous and electric oh don't plug anything up cause you'll pay 3-4 hundered a month. and oh the juicy bars…if your married you better be a rock solid marriage or your husband will dump you for a bar chick and guess what . Divorce here is easy as pie. The community service's help here is like 3rd world country. Trust me korea is not where you want to be. When you ask where are the promises ….They have lots of excuses.