By Does this mean war?
INCHEON, South Korea – North and South Korea exchanged artillery fire Tuesday after the North shelled an island near their disputed sea border, killing at least two South Korean marines, setting dozens of buildings ablaze and sending civilians fleeing for shelter.
The clash, which put South Korea’s military on high alert, was one of the rivals’ most dramatic confrontations since the Korean War ended, and one of the few to put civilians at risk, though no nonmilitary deaths were immediately reported. Sixteen South Korean soldiers and three civilians were injured and the extent of casualties on the northern side was unknown.
The skirmish began when Pyongyang warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations and a small civilian population.
“I thought I would die,” said Lee Chun-ok, 54, an islander who said she was watching TV in her home when the shelling began. Suddenly, a wall and door collapsed.
“I was really, really terrified,” she told The Associated Press after being evacuated to the port city of Incheon, west of Seoul, “and I’m still terrified.”
South Korea responded by firing K-9 155mm self-propelled howitzers and dispatching fighter jets. Officials in Seoul said there could be considerable North Korean casualties. The entire skirmish lasted about an hour.
Each side has threatened the other against another attack.- Associated Press
I don’t have much to say about this news. Is this just another one of the periodic border clashes between the two Koreas, or is it time to panic like this blogger seems to think? My opinion- This is nothing more worrisome than any of the previous clashes. The leaders in Pyongyang have to know that if a real shooting war breaks out, they will all be doomed. Self preservation is almost always the most dominant trait in politicians.
1:58 am on November 23rd, 2010 1
There is no strong indication that should lead to panic, but this is a significant step up for the North in terms of provocations.
Land clashes hit harder than those at sea in South Korea. Using artillery, especially something like 200 shots, plays as much more severe than the "mysterious" sinking of South Korean warship – even though more people were killed on the boat.
After the ICBM and nuke tests, the next step for North Korea to take if it wanted to increase pressure significantly was killing people.
The fact it is now killing people means something.
I believe it means the regime feels like it's survival is in question in the near future:
North Korea can't survive without X amount of material aid from South Korea, the US, and the world community. Every time it does one of these provocations, it is factoring the chance it can squeeze more aid out of the global community vs the risk it could cut aid off to the extent the regime collapses.
Killing people as a means of agitation and propaganda was long used by the North until the 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed. Since then, the North has been much more measured and reluctant to take things to this level.
It fears losing the lifeline the world has been giving it since the great famine.
So, major provocations likely mean the North is in a period of desperation. And, if the regime is looking around at itself and getting desperate, that means trouble for its neighbors.
If the North begins to collapse, there is a good chance it will lash out as it goes down. And if the regime is convinced it runs a big risk of going down in the near future, it will be willing to risk anything to prevent it, including military provocations or limited military action as a worst-case attempt at brinkmanship.
In short, I take little comfort in the idea that the North (or South or US) would never risk starting a war because they know the cost would be too high.
We will always be standing on quicksand when it comes to dealing with a nation so perpetually weak but equally dangerous as North Korea…
2:01 am on November 23rd, 2010 2
Option one: Wait for the DPRK to collapse, maybe years away or a lifetime away.
Option two: Evacuate Seoul and attack. Not likely.
ROK is stuck like a dog in heat attempting to get away.
2:05 am on November 23rd, 2010 3
The North gambles on the presumption that no matter how reckless they are the South must always make carefully considered responses.
There is good reason for them to believe that, because of the disproportionate scale of what could be lost on the South compared to the North after equal sized attacks.
The leverage the North has is they know that the South has much more to lose than they do.
2:20 am on November 23rd, 2010 4
While this attack is front and center in the news, there are and have been many more that go unreported. When I was in Korea from 77 to 81 they found tunnels dug under the DMZ. A Helicopter either was shot down or had mechanical trouble and went down in North Korea and several North Korean agents were caught coming across the DMZ. Several soldiers in the 2ID told stories about random shots being fired across the DMZ. A few boats came across the zone and were sunk by the South, etc. etc.
South Korea is in a bad position that if they do go to war they have a very large population within easy striking distance. Although a war would probably be short lived for the North, the South would suffer greatly from the results.
2:20 am on November 23rd, 2010 5
I kinda wish i were in Korea today. Watching the Koreans in Seoul.
Someone let me know how it is.
2:56 am on November 23rd, 2010 6
Left work in USAG-Y for the trip Osan. No change in Seoul.. No Sirens..No panic.. No mass exodus, just the average traffic. Just a lot of people watching the news. The Koreans will get really worried if USFK hit's the Neo Evac button IMHO.
4:04 am on November 23rd, 2010 7
The sinking of the SK warship made barely a ripple among the Korean teachers I teach.
I was also surprised when discussing it, almost none of them remembered the submarine that popped up along the east coast in the late 1990s. The military and reserves in Kangwon province scoured the countryside looking for the NK commandos trying to make their way to the North – with some firefights taking place and a few civilians being murdered.
I expected school teachers would have a better memory about such events that took place a little over a decade ago and when they were in their 20s and 30s… Nope.
6:04 am on November 23rd, 2010 8
First there was the Choenan = Naval engagment
Second there was Yeonpyeong = Army engagment
Third there will be an air engagment somewhere = Air Force
How can the Generals respect Kim Jeong-un unless he proves himself?
By this time next year, a North Korean military aircraft will attack a target close to the NLL.
Signed,
Lemmy
6:34 am on November 23rd, 2010 9
In the national defense pecking order, Gates and Mullen are more concerned with repealing DADT before the newly elected congress takes seat. NK knows their interest and priority is lower than a fag so they are just trying to get a little attention why Gates and Mullen push their personal agenda and Courts-Martial anyone who voices opposition.
8:01 am on November 23rd, 2010 10
usinkorea wrote:
usinkorea, it sounds like from your description (including the selective memory) that you're teaching a handful of chinboistas. Ask them if they thought Lee Myungbak should have been impeached over allowing US beef back into South Korea in 2008.
8:53 am on November 23rd, 2010 11
Oh man thank you North Korea showing agian what kind of world player china will be calling for calm on both sides after one party attacks another. China can't keep calm when the CEO of KFC meet with a representative of th ROC let alone when KFC wants to have a campign for new peace drum stick with the Dalai Lama.
10:47 am on November 23rd, 2010 12
#11
Unlike my previous tour teaching Korean adults, we don't talk geopolitics or social issues in my current position. We stick to academics. So, I haven't learned much this time around and can't get a feel for the current moods in Korean society.
I have seen enough tid-bits, however, to remind me of things I've learned over the years. There have been enough short comments. Mostly on internal socio-economic items in South Korean society. Maybe a couple on international trade.
And comments like, "I'll be happy when the day comes when Korea has its own language teaching theories. The theories today are all American. I'll be happy when Korea develops its own theories that fit Korean society."
And I did see a photo where one of the teachers in a previous course was a proud member of the congregation of the anti-American Catholic priest who likes to hold mass and offer communion as a form of protest.
10:51 am on November 23rd, 2010 13
#8
Trying to shoot down a US military plane in international airspace is a possible event if the North wants to raise the stakes a little more. It showed a couple of years ago that it had taken note of the publicity generated over the China US spyplane incident of the early 2000s.
If the North doesn't gain what it wants out of this latest provocation, gunning for other than South Koreans is the next option.
11:05 am on November 23rd, 2010 14
My high school students are a little bit scared because they really don't know what the hell is going on.
11:20 am on November 23rd, 2010 15
#13, you're the biggest anti Korean hypocrite in here that I've ever seen. Didn't you have a web site full of anti Korean hate? So what are you doing back in Korea which you hate so much? Let me guess, you needed money.
11:21 am on November 23rd, 2010 16
Tom, you live where?
Blah blah blah…
11:52 am on November 23rd, 2010 17
I think the countries in the region should develop a common strategy to end North Korea’s missile development programs. What is needed is a concerted effort because the war on the Korean Peninsula would produce massive casualties. Everyone knows that the stakes are very high since the two countries possess technologies with the potential to threaten the rest of the world.
12:10 pm on November 23rd, 2010 18
Everyone seems to be trying to pinpoint one reason that would motivate the attack, but it's much more complex than that. It's neither a, b, or c…It's all of the above. Yes, they are jealous of South Korea's new found prominence on the international scene. Yes, they are trying to create justification for their failed policies (after all, they promised to their citizens that North Korea would become an advanced nation by 2012, either a pipe dream or an empty promise in order to stifle opposition to its failed currency policy). Yes, they want to force South Korea and its allies into negotiations (nuclear program, maritime demarcation line, aid, trade embargo, you name it). And, yes they are trying to facilitate the regime change.
12:13 pm on November 23rd, 2010 19
Mark#17.
China wants an unstable Korea, because they want to influence the region.
12:21 pm on November 23rd, 2010 20
LOL usinkorea talks a lot of shit when he's just some LBH english loser I mean teacher.
1:10 pm on November 23rd, 2010 21
I don’t think much will come of it in the end either, but this is much more significant than any of the recent border or sea incidents. They dropped artillery shells on South Korean soil!!!
2:21 pm on November 23rd, 2010 22
And comments like, “I’ll be happy when the day comes when Korea has its own language teaching theories. The theories today are all American. I’ll be happy when Korea develops its own theories that fit Korean society.”
Do you mean theories that fit Korean society which allow for "special circumstances" or theories that fit Korean society which allow the students to bribe their way through class?
2:27 pm on November 23rd, 2010 23
Leon LaPorte wrote:
Hey, ChickenHead, do we ignore this troll, too? (JK, LLP, but I'm beginning to think you're not the real Leon LaPorte.)
It occurred to me that if we all follow CH's advice, no one will be saying anything to anyone. (JK, CH)
5:26 pm on November 23rd, 2010 24
Yeah but I'm a user friendly troll.
8:54 pm on November 23rd, 2010 25
No, you're a Yangkkee Doodle American troll.
9:17 pm on November 23rd, 2010 26
#18, you missed one. They do it since they know they can get away with it.
10:44 pm on November 23rd, 2010 27
North Korea, like Taiwan, are just jealous of South Korea's successes. They've just showed their temper tantrums over the last week. I'm actually enjoying their spasms and foaming at their mouths with hatred. Both of them have some serious issues with South Korea who are doing much better then them.
2:13 am on November 24th, 2010 28
Not to put too fine a point on it Tom, but they sound like the same protests Korea raised when they had that speed skater disqualified
Your reasoning makes sense though 8D
2:46 am on November 24th, 2010 29
Whenever there is an incident in Korea, I get a lot of email…
…basically, "OMG! Is there going to be a war? What are you going to do? Are you worried?"
Here is what I sent out to everyone. This is my opinion of the situation and I believe it to be accurate…
…but I'd certainly like to hear any additions, criticism or calls of bullshyt.
—
There have been a number of incidents since I have been in Korea… invading subs, naval clashes, border shootings, a few spies killing or getting killed, sunken ship… etc.
Nobody has really cared… just a few days of irritation at semi-retarded brother North Korea… but attention quickly went back to the latest TV drama and what shape the taillights will be on next season's Hyundai.
In fact, there has sometimes been more anger directed at the South Korean government's handling of the incident than at North Korea for starting it.
This makes no sense to non-Koreans… but it makes perfect sense here.
The Number One Concern of most South Koreans is not about the lives of a few soldiers or sailor… or a blow to national pride when some military hardware is destroyed… or enduring gloating propaganda about another glorious North Korean victory against the South Korean puppet lackey running-dog gangster stooges… etc.
The Number One Concern of most South Koreans is that they can continue a lifestyle of watching dramas and concerning themselves about little more than taillights.
Nobody wants a disruptive war. Nobody wants a North Korean collapse that will send a flood of poor, hungry, unskilled, unsocialized and potentially angry North Korean peasants across the border to cause unimaginable social and economic chaos.
Everybody just wants things to stay as they are… and, to keep it that way, they are willing to overlook a little distant death and destruction that has no real affect on them.
But that has just changed.
After this latest shelling, average South Koreans are actually showing some worry and concern for the first time.
Apart from a few unlucky mushroom gathers that ran into escaping spies, all other incidents have targeted the military. This was the first incident to clearly target civilians… and it has gotten people thinking the unthinkable…
…such as, what happens if they send a few thousand rounds into Seoul.
There is an abnormally large number of emotional Koreans calling for a decisive military response… to show that a line has been crossed and North Korea's actions are completely unacceptable.
There is also a faction of second-level thinkers that sees this, and the sinking of the Cheonan, as incidents designed to build support for the son of the North Korean leader as he starts to assume some of his father's duties… and any military response will assist in rallying the citizens around him as he will be given the appearance of fighting off the South Korean invaders… or however they spin it.
Strangely, this faction also wants a limited military response to assist the power transfer in North Korea… as another generation of predictable strong leadership in North Korea perpetuating a continuous ultra-low-intensity conflict to stay in power is preferable to a weak leader with a crumbling central government and very unpredictable results.
So, it look like a military response of some sort will be coming soon… probably within days.
Although there is some real concern for the first time, nobody expects a real war. The effect on South Korea would be terrible… but recoverable. For the leadership of North Korea, it would mean the end… and they are still too comfortable to risk that.
So. In reality, there is little to be concerned about… as usual.
2:58 am on November 24th, 2010 30
South Korea doesn't want war or reunification because it would bankrupt the country. A unified Korea would be as poor as Cambodia. Also, the foreign workers and foreign teachers would have to leave because of no more money to give them.
I don't think North Korea wants war, either. If you notice, they attacked a small island, not the mainland. They just want to scare South Korea and the US to give them money.
3:55 am on November 24th, 2010 31
#29, my point also.
Chickenhead says Koreans don't want war. Of course not. Who wants war and destruction of their homes and their community? (and no I'm not asking you meatheads with helmets on).
So the armchair analysts here should tell me this. If there's a war and there is carnage out there, will America be willing to pay for the reconstruction? If there's no war, but if this thing escalates to something bigger and all the foreign investors and businesses flee South Korea and the economy goes down the drain and we need a hand out to feed ourselves, are Americans willing to pitch in and save their tax dollars for us? Are you Americans who are so willing to see South Korea go to war with North Korea, put your mouth were it belongs and go into further foreign debt, and help out with massive financial packages? If you say no, then why should South Koreans risk everything so that the US can take out North Korea for their own satisfaction and let South Korea holding the big empty bag? So how about it?
5:43 am on November 24th, 2010 32
Tom #30, what country has spent more blood and treasure on SK than the U.S.? What country's soldiers would fight and die right alongside those of South Korea if a war broke out right now? Are we willing to pitch in more tax dollars? More than we have for the past 60 years? Can we afford to finance another war? Probably not, but we would anyway. Would we pay for reconstruction? The security provided by the U.S. is what paid for the reconstruction and ascension of SK for the past 6 decades and will do so for the forseeable future. I don't think anyone really wants to see another war start. War is the worst thing that can happen on the planet. It's not like a natural disaster that takes place over a short period of time, it can go on for decades. Your post pretty much refutes all your previous posts. All the questions you asked are what the U.S. has been doing since 1950. It ALMOST sounds like you have finally realized how important America is to Korea's well being
6:26 am on November 24th, 2010 33
I'm not talking about 1950 or the past. I'm talking about the future, if Korea is destroyed. Is America up to the challenge to fork up? I don't think so. Wasn't it only up to few days ago when people here were clamouring the US to leave Korea? You guys can talk up a storm, but who's going to have to rebuild this country from scratch? Who's going to die and suffer the most? Koreans, not Americans. Isn't it so easy to talk about war when it's not your country that's getting wiped out?
7:36 am on November 24th, 2010 34
#32
For someone who constantly takes a pro-Han stance on this site and voices his love for the idea that the U.S. Armed Forces leave S. Korea, you seem to be concerned about a possible shakey S. Korean future which needs U.S. support.
Tom – "Wasn’t it only up to few days ago when people here were clamouring the US to leave Korea?"
I believe it's been much longer than a few days and it's been mostly YOU that voices this sentiment.
Tom – "You guys can talk up a storm, but who’s going to have to rebuild this country from scratch? Who’s going to die and suffer the most? Koreans, not Americans."
For someone who talks about how great S. Korea is, health care, 15th largest economy etc., S. Korea should be rich and sucessful enough to rebuild on it's own. Logic dictates that when a country goes to war, it's people suffer. If your infering that the U.S. starts the war and S.K. is inadvertantly pulled in, then you can complain about S. Korean suffering. If this scenario happens, a lot of people will suffer.
7:53 am on November 24th, 2010 35
But Tom, It's YOUR country. Of course Korea would suffer the most. They suffered the most when the North attacked the last time. But America was there with equipment, blood, and billion$. In no way would I ever say that war is the answer to this situation. Hopefully it will be settled without bombs and more bloodshed. But are you willing to have those piss-ants to the north shelling you periodically or sinking your ships at will because you don't want to jeopardize your lifestyle? What would the response be when they sink a shipload of Hyundai's? I'm sure there are a lot of people would feel that a boatload of cars is far more important than a few dead Marines and civilians. Tom, what do you think an appropriate response should be for the most recent act of war committed by the North? Would you draw the line at size of the city shelled, or number of civilian deaths incurred? I'm not being a smart-ass or discrediting your concerns in any way, I'm just curious as to where you stand on defending your country.
9:56 am on November 24th, 2010 36
I certainly can't fault SK for their restraint (admire it a lot, especially since a shooting war on the peninsula is really something Australia doesn't want to see either). The reasoning is sound.
But at the same time, with all these continual NK attacks, I can't help but think of the Salami Slicing scene from Yes, Prime Minister………..
10:56 am on November 24th, 2010 37
Tom, you live in Canada, right?
11:19 am on November 24th, 2010 38
Tim, not sure how much they deliberately shelled the township itself. NK may have been overestimating their accuracy. The K9 artillery positions they were targetting were embedded on a decently steep reverse slope, and the township was at the base of the slope. Would need very little overshot to end up hitting the town.
11:21 am on November 24th, 2010 39
#39
I'm sure you are intelligent enough to figure it out.
11:24 am on November 24th, 2010 40
I'm not concerned about escalation.
I am worried about how much these events – and others of the last couple of years – are signs of deterioration inside North Korea. Are they signs of growing anxiety about collapse on the part of the regime?
Because when North Korea does collapse, there is a good chance it will lash out at South Korea and possibly Japan.
(And then, Tom's Canadian tax dollars, thanks to the UN, IMF, World Bank, other multi-national orgs, and direct aid, will go to rebuilding his fatherland.)
11:25 am on November 24th, 2010 41
Nathan wrote:
Irrelevant (no disrespect, Nathan). They knew they were shelling a smallish island with 1200 to 1500 civilians on it; that they were shelling it blind was no excuse.
And "what we were trying to hit" is immaterial considering that they were the ones who started firing into "enemy" territory. The Yŏnpyŏng-do islands, nor the waters around them where North Korean shells were also hitting, are disputed territories even by North Korean standards.
There is absolutely no excuse or excusing North Korea's actions here.
11:31 am on November 24th, 2010 42
No defence intended or excuse intended, the act of opening fire against targets that were certainly not firing at them or any other North Korean facility or personnel is indefensible.
And its certainly the case that NK does not exactly have a track record of respecting civilians….
11:45 am on November 24th, 2010 43
This paragraph was news to me:
"The skirmish began when Pyongyang warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations and a small civilian population."
I conclude that, in the minds of the North Koreans, they weren't provoking anyone, weren't raising tensions, weren't extracting aid. They thought they were responding to a South Korean provocation by shelling military installations. I don't agree with the North Koreans, but if we want to understand their motives, we have to look at the incident from their point of view.
11:46 am on November 24th, 2010 44
Apparently part of the reponse to this will be a naval exercise with a carrier. Hey, that sounds familiar. Let's see if they go through with it this time — in the Yellow Sea. Hopefully firing into the same waters the North Koreas claim instigated this attack.
Would the North Koreans fire on US warships under rule of engagement orders to defend themselves?
2:01 pm on November 24th, 2010 45
46
Drills like this take place all the time in militaries around the world. Certainly in two nations still locked in a cold war — NK and SK.
And the North Korean government sends memos in protest all the time. Just as the SK government and others protest when North Korea test fires some short-range missiles into the sea (in its own waters).
So — NK's claim that the artillery attack was a response to drills is — bogus.
If we give NK's claim any credibility, we should then start wondering why North Korea has not been shelling all along the DMZ and shelling these islands year after year, several times a year every time the South Korean or USFK held a military exercise or bombing practice.
2:35 pm on November 24th, 2010 46
The plans for the upcoming naval exercise are not yet clear. What just happened seems to be North Korea trying to make the bully"s claim that the South has no right to do fire exercises in that area. Should the South back down from that challenge?
In 1976, the North, in a similarly bold claim, attacked Capt. Bonifas"
crew to assert they had no right to cut down a tree in the DMZ. We didn't back down from that challenge then.
It is clear to me there is at lease one thing that needs to be done soon; shell the sh!t out of those disputed water with the presence of an overwhelming force.
4:11 pm on November 24th, 2010 47
That’s correct, it’s my country. You meat heads shouldn’t be involved, clamoring and demanding and harassing South Koreans to go to war, and attack North Korea, and in turn get destroyed and have to rebuild from scratch. Who’s going to pay for all this, not America of course.
5:48 pm on November 24th, 2010 48
I have to agree for the most part that this looks like just another nK prank to get attention but the fact that they purposely shelled a target with so many SK civilians does leave me to wonder. The nK Navy got theirs off the west coast, now the nK Army, next will be the nK Air Force probably trying to engage something over or near the DMZ or more likely over the East Sea within their self declared 50nm military exclusion zone. All these incidents and the unveiling of the nuclear facility to the West is all for internal propaganda purposes to give Kim Chong-Un something to put on his resume as head of the military forces in nK.
Personally though, I hope that nothing gets escalated. Having worked to keep the nK in check for 20 years in the U.S. Navy working in the ROK I would be toward the top of the list of people that they would consider recalling to active duty.
To all of you in the ROK now. Keep your evac kit close by and buy a dirt bike to use to get south once the shelling starts because the ALL the roads south will be useless if your not taken out by the first wave.
Tim in the Philippines sendzzzzzzzzzzzzz
6:03 pm on November 24th, 2010 49
So?
6:17 pm on November 24th, 2010 50
So you probably don’t need to ask the US to bail out ‘your’ country if it comes to war; Canada will probably come through okay
6:29 pm on November 24th, 2010 51
USinKorea 48, I don't mean to give credibility to any North Korean claims. I'm just trying to understand what they're thinking. I'm not convinced the artillery fire was an attempt to get attention, to restart negotiations, or to extract aid. I think the straightforward interpretaion is possible – they felt provoked, so they shot back. I don't mean they did the right thing! I'm just trying to understand their motives. This shelling seems unlikly to get them any aid or negotiations. The result is instead going to be more exercises, this time with US participation, in the Yellow Sea.
6:34 pm on November 24th, 2010 52
The Rok's should cut off ALL aid (and perhaps all commercial ventures) to the norK's. That in and of itself would send a strong message and hurt them more than almost anything.
6:50 pm on November 24th, 2010 53
Jerry #4. You are correct. I was stationed at the 121 Evac in Yongsan from '79-'80 & there was an American soldier who had his leg blown off by a NK landmine in the DMZ. I never heard anything reported on it at all.
11:13 am on November 25th, 2010 54
The USS George Washington Carrier Group is being dispatched to the Korean peninsula for exercises with the ROKN to last about 4 days. The U.S. Navy usually gives nK a reasonably wide berth when conducting operations in the East or West Sea around the ROK ever since the USS Pueblo capture in 1968. I'm sure wherever they do the exercise, the Chinese will be keeping an eye on it and report to nK anything out of the ordinary.
11:42 am on November 25th, 2010 55
I haven't been trying to say that you agree with the North's actions…
Anyway, the motives have been diagnosed before by the people who have written extensively about "brinkmanship." It is generally recognized as the North's diplomatic playbook.
All I'm saying is that the artillery attack does squarely fit into a pattern of behavior and a pattern that has been (correctly) diagnosed in the past.
It does not matter whether the actions will achieve its purpose or not. The likely result as it looks immediately after the event does not outweigh the previous pattern of behavior.
A land attack is a significant increase. South Korea's lukewarm reaction was not a given. It would have been reasonable to guess that an artillery attack would cause the South to go into an uproar as well as generate global news buzz with the hope that South Korean society's fury would increase the global news coverage and thus generate the kind of global pressure the North has found is ultimately good for it, because it has been leading to new agreements and increases in aid since the early 1990s…
In short, this artillery attack is not an isolated event. The motives behind it can more clearly be viewed by placing it in the longer context of history.
That is why I do not focus much on the current idea that the attack was mainly concerned with providing stability during the preparations for transferring power to Kim Jong-Il's son. I am sure that is part of the motivation, but this type of provocation was going on before Kim's stroke and rapidly deteriorating health.
11:57 pm on November 25th, 2010 56
Tom #35: You didn't answer my question. Where would you draw the line on defending your country? If war broke out, would you return to defend it? What is an acceptable level of destruction/casualties for you before you would quit worrying about who is going to rebuild it and worry about defending YOUR country. I really haven't seen a lot (or any) comments saying that Korea, and consequently America, should start marching north. Even though shelling another country and sinking a warship are considered acts of war, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who truly wants to see another war in Korea. And really, where did you come up with the idea that the U.S. wouldn't be there after the dust settled? We've had a presence in Korea since 1945, you know, after Korea was liberated from the Japanese. Why would that relationship change now? Sorry Tom, but even from the safety of Canadian soil, you sound like a coward. A lot of your previous posts go on and on about how Korea doesn't need the U.S. and that we should be gone and how we are basically the devil in ACU's. But, when something like this occurs, the first thing you talk about is how much Korea needs American tax dollars to rebuild, and feed, and take care of YOUR country. You're kind of like one of those women (or men) in a relationship that says, "I hate you. I can get along well enough without you. Leave, leave. Hey! Where are you going? I can't live without you. I'll die if you leave." Where DO you stand, Tom? Would you actually defend your country on Korean soil, or would you just sit in Canada and bad mouth America?
AND for your information, I'm NOT a meathead. I'm more of a chowderhead.
12:49 am on November 26th, 2010 57
#55
Don't waste time asking TOM.
Btw, I think it's time to start a more professional (though I'm not) critique of performance of ROK forces that did respond to NK shelling.
More info has been released about what really happened to the ROKMC unit on the island.
–Targets of NK
Looks like nk really really wanted to take out the six K9 SPH on the sk island. Initial nk shells were apparently focused on the shelters of K9. I've seen photos of damage done to the shelters taken immediately after the shelling and the damage is all focused the shelters themselves. No damage on nearby area, just on the shelters. NK knew exactly where the K9 shelters were. Disturbing but not really unexpected. No nk shells came near sk 105mm battery that are also on the island, maybe because they knew 105mm couldn't respond anyways due to short range.
–Disposition of sk K9
2 of the 6 were in shelter to guard against nk and 4 were away and pointed WEST for practice firing. In the initial shelling, the 2 in shelters were pretty knocked out of fight immediately. One of the two took a direct hit but luckily it was a dud. The other 4 ceased practice and apparently returned to the base (?) to return fire. Of these 4, 1 had a jam during practice firing and I wasn't sure if it ever got into the fight. It took 13 minutes for ROKMC to commence return fire after the nk initial shelling. Some of the reasons for the delay was caused by the counter battery radar system on the island. It is older (given away by rok army, marines always get old stuff) and fire mission info had to be sent over to SPH manually (even though SPH are capable of receiving fire mission electronically).
Using the remaining 3 SPH, SK apparently got off 80 shells.
–NK 122mm fuel air explosive rockets
The nk 122mm battery company (fuel air explosive rockets) is not usually located where it fired from. It should've been located near the DMZ but apparently moved into location to fire on the sk island, which shows this was premeditated action by nk.
–interview with local rokmc company commander
Another interesting piece I read was an interview with the ROKMC company commander on the island (of the K9 battery ?) on a sk newspaper. He said he was proud of his marines for being able to return fire as they did despite being attacked without warning. He quoted one of his men, 'when i saw a K9 enveloped in flame (apparently from nk 122mm fuel air explosive rockets), all i wanted to do was return fire to nk'.
I saw picture of One marine whose front of helmet burned black after fire from fuel air explosive got into the SPH but he was ok. He was still wearing when the pic was taken.
–Lucky rokmc
SK really really got lucky (for lack of better term) with only 2 marines getting killed, and these 2 were apparently were actually on ferry dock (on way to leave) but were running back to the barracks after nk shelling started. Think I read there were about 40 ROK marines waiting for ferry to leave the island. Presumably many of the wounded came from that group also.
–Can't hit nk hole-in-the-wall direct fire artillery pices
NK has 76mm pieces inside of holes dug into the cliffs. These are plainly visible to ROK observers, which is how apparently rokmc knew nk was about to fire by observing them opening the covers. Thing is sk has no ability to hit these holes as 155mm shells plunge downward. I think even hitting around the holes with the 155mm could do the job but if it's not possible, maybe NLOS-LS could do the job? If the bugs ever get worked out?
1:10 am on November 26th, 2010 58
John, I'm not really expecting anything significant from Tom. It's just interesting to see the change in his perspective.
1:34 am on November 26th, 2010 59
Has anyone heard what the NK's are telling their populace? Are they putting units on alert or notifying reservists of possible call ups? If not, it's just an isolated incident they will probably get away with, which sets the stage to commit another incident. Even if they are stirring up the populace, it's to divert attention from their day to day existence. "That sound you're hearing is not your stomachs rumbling from hunger, it's the sound of tanks amassing on the DMZ that are being driven by the running dogs of Yankee imperialism."
4:00 am on November 26th, 2010 60
I want to take a moment to thank John for his analysis in #56.
Glans wrote:
I don't really agree. Maybe a young soldier or the hoi polloi might be of the mind you describe, but for the Pyongyang elite, this is not what's driving them.
I talked about it here, but in a nutshell, the 1999 line they declared was a political ploy and now they are using the notion that waters controlled by South Korea since 1953 are theirs according to a unilateral 1999 declaration as a military pretext with cynical political ends. This is about bolstering the military's power and prestige at a shaky time in the regime's history.
4:04 am on November 26th, 2010 61
Dragonfly wrote:
I don't know the details of what's happening with reservists and what-not, but I've been analyzing reports in the KCNA to see how they respond, and they point to, perhaps, further escalation. In addition to the KCNA-related post in #59 just above, see also here, here, and here.
4:06 am on November 26th, 2010 62
Stupid spam filter! Forcing me to add this "stupid spam filter!" line to trick it into thinking this is a completely different post!
Dragonfly wrote:
I don't know the details of what's happening with reservists and what-not, but I've been analyzing reports in the KCNA to see how they respond, and they point to, perhaps, further escalation. In addition to the KCNA-related post in #59 just above, see also here and here.
4:07 am on November 26th, 2010 63
And especially this link which includes the North Korean threat for a second and third attack.
5:38 am on November 26th, 2010 64
#55 to answer your question. And already we have arm chair English teachers and their meathead buddies denigrating the Korean marines and the Korean soliders in general. So where were these English teachers who like to insult and denigrate Korean soldiers who have given up their lives for the country? They were in Hagwons, teaching two bit English to fiver year olds for chump change to send back home where they're unemployed. Go check out the ESL Cafe, all the military experts who've never set their feet on the ground for marches, are saying how stupid and cowardly Koreans are etc etc. All I said was that if you want war to engulf the entire peninsula, then you should be prepared to pay for it. That's all I said. I didn't say Korea needs the US, and I didn't say Korea needs your help. I said put up or shut up and stay out of our business!
7:08 am on November 26th, 2010 65
Tom, you still didn't answer my questions. If it was totally up to you, where would you draw the line on defending your country? What type of incident would it take for you to retaliate and what type of retaliation would you think appropriate? I'm not saying anyone should go to war and really haven't seen anyone denigrate Korean soldiers who have died defending their homeland. I will agree with you that it's usually the ones who have the least to lose that are the quickest to call for war. I really don't think anyone on the blog has called for a declaration of war. But, if war were declared, the U.S. wouldn't have the authority to do so. It would have to come from the Korean govt. and I believe we would all be paying a heavy price for that. So Tom, what do you think of the whole situation? How do you feel about NK attacking South Korean territory? If you were president, what would YOU do? If you were in control of the situation, what would you do to stop NK from these attacks and keep SK safe? Now is the time for you to discard all the rhetoric and just give us an honest opinion on your assessment of the situation and what you think should be done about it.
10:16 am on November 26th, 2010 66
I wonder when Tom's secondary reserve obligation is up. They still do that, right?
10:41 am on November 26th, 2010 67
Judging by Tom's English proficiency – especially some of the common colloquial usages – and cultural references over the years – there is a significant chance he has Canadian citizenship, has had it for a long time going back to his youth, and he never had to serve in the Korean military.
I'd like to know when was the last time he spent 6 or more months in South Korea and when was the last time he lived in Korea for more than 2 years. At what age did he leave Korea? And how long was his longest stint living in Canada (outside of Korea)?
These questions would not be necessary for the average kyobo offering an opinion on these issues. But, given what Tom has been saying over the years, they are pertinent.
11:08 am on November 26th, 2010 68
#65, I will tell you everything about me so that you can use it to attack me just because you don't like my messages. Oh right.
Didn't you know? I'm a Chinese agitprop from Beijing. 
You're the same guy that used to have an anti Korean web page.
"I wonder when Tom’s secondary reserve obligation is up. They still do that, right?"
If the war breaks out, I'll let you GI's get killed. As for me I'll stay where I am, nice and comfortable.
"If it was totally up to you, where would you draw the line on defending your country? "
Here's what I would do. I would ask the USFK to leave. So you guys will get to help out Iraq or Afghanistan and then die there. That way, we don't have to see you guys denigrating Koreans. And if I was the president, I would immediately develop the nuclear weapons. I would churn them out like Hyundai churns out cars. And I would point them at China, and I would point them at North Korea. And I would tell North Korea, if they even lift a finger on South Korea, South Korea will immediately reply with a nuclear strike. North Korea will not attack unless they want a nuclear war. If they do, it will be mutual destruction. If the mutual destruction happens, I want to take China with me. There are too many jjankkes in this world, we need to depopulate them, and this is Tom's revenge.
11:11 am on November 26th, 2010 69
You limited understanding of geopolitics is almost comical. Oh, and you're a coward. Cheers!
11:17 am on November 26th, 2010 70
Like I thought.
If Tom were not like some other (nice) kyobos I've known who have spent all of their adult lives outside Korea, he would have snarkly answered with specifics showing that he has spent most of his life in South Korea, knows and loves his motherland extremely well, and thus is a homegrown, extremely proud
bigotperson.Instead, he offers one of his typical non-answers.
So, I'll slide my guess into the more convinced area —- concerning the belief that Tom moved to Canada or abroad at an early age and has spent little time in South Korea since then.
I've met a handful of Koreans like that — gotten to know a few of them – and found them to be quiet personable and agreeable to talk to. One is a longer-term friend.
I've met probably two online who are like Tom — extreme patriots to an ugly and unhealthy extent for a land they more dream about as their fatherland than is in real life.
11:58 am on November 26th, 2010 71
john 56, what do K9 and SPH mean?
12:11 pm on November 26th, 2010 72
#69, not another Kushibo..!
And I also forgot to mention, I would also forcibly round up anti Korean English teachers with anti Korean web sites and deport them out of the country.
And then I would target the nuclear missiles at the United State too. If Korean homes are going to be destroyed, then I would want USinKorea's and Leon Laport's home to be destroyed too.
12:14 pm on November 26th, 2010 73
For the K9
SPH stands for self-propelled Howitzer
12:19 pm on November 26th, 2010 74
Last message for you…
Tom, what is sad is, even when you are trying to be substantive, you are just as silly and immature as you are when you are ducking questions, facts, or reasoning.
You'll keep posting here like you are a true South Korean, living in South Korea, showing yourself to have a level of prejudice and racial animosity that the vast majority of real Koreans don't exhibit….and I'll continue to point out you are Canadian…..which probably says a lot about how you go about your daily life mixed in with people of a different ethnicity you can't stand….
12:22 pm on November 26th, 2010 75
S. korea has several weapons systems, essentially the same as used by the US Military, but with local licenses and modifications in manufacture.
The M1 tank is known as the K1 in Korea (very similar vehicle, much different localy manufactured), the F16 fighter plane is the K16 in Korea.
K9 is the designation of the 155MM Sef Propelled Artillery piece in the S. Korean Military, the eqivilant is the M109 in the US Army.
SPH is a Self Propelled Howitzer, an Artillery gun on a motorized chassis and tracks, looks like a tank but is not. The K9/M109 is a SPH.
12:34 pm on November 26th, 2010 76
usinkorea 72 and Ole Tanker. 74, Thanks! I can follow the comments better now. And, looking at the picture of the K9, yes, I would have called it a tank. I appreciate the explanations by experts.
12:45 pm on November 26th, 2010 77
#73, I have already said I am a South Korean who is staying abroad. I am not in Korea.
Why did you come back to Korea? You couldn't make it back home? You couldn't find a job? Why did you come back to a country you hate?
12:53 pm on November 26th, 2010 78
Same questions: How old were you when you left Korea? When was the last time you spent more than a year in Korea?
I came back to Korea when my wife's father developed terminal cancer and subsequently died.
12:58 pm on November 26th, 2010 79
I think it's interesting that they used fuel air munitions. They are more for maximizing human casualties that destroying hard targets.
A while back, there was speculation of what a North Korean artillery attack might do in a congested city like Seoul. Now we know more.
1:02 pm on November 26th, 2010 80
I was educated in the West for the most part, served in the ROK military, and I returned to the West to continue my higher education.
Now you answer me, what was your job in the US and why aren't you going back to the US? What's your wife's father got to do with you?
1:09 pm on November 26th, 2010 81
So, you left Korea as a young boy, went back for about 2 years in your early 20s, left again and are now a college or graduate student…
You've spent the majority of your life outside of land the fatherland, but you talk about it as if you are currently living there and need to desperately defend its purity like a race monger…
I am a high school teacher in the US. I'll be going back next year when my teaching stint here is over.
You would need to ask the last question…
1:12 pm on November 26th, 2010 82
Tom wrote:
You said you were a KATUSA.
You asked and usinkorea answered. Stop being a tool by going after someone whose relative has died.
I've seen enough of usinkorea's writings to know he's had a pretty good relationship with his in-laws. And even if he hadn't, he cares enough about his wife so that she (and he) can be with her father at such a tragic time. Show a little decency for once, Tom, and just quit where you're at.
As for usinkorea "hating" Korea, even though I vehemently disagree with many of his premises and his conclusion, I wouldn't put it that way. I think usinkorea (because he wrongly believes the chinboista vocal minority is/was actually, secretly representative of the Korean "they," that he feels frustrated at the deception and ingratitude spread by the chinboista groups toward USFK. That's not hate.
1:19 pm on November 26th, 2010 83
Thanks, Kushibo.
My hate of Korea is limited to the issue of what I do see as the common view of the US-SK relationship, but even I don't consider views like Tom's as being held by much of a percentage of the Korean population.
As for the family, my wife actually stayed back in the US at her job after a short visit with her mother.
As a teacher, it was easier for me change jobs for a short period and then change back. So my wife kept her job and stayed a part-time student while I came here to help her mother.
1:23 pm on November 26th, 2010 84
#78…. now we know and now the norKs know. Perhaps that's what they wanted to see…
1:27 pm on November 26th, 2010 85
JoeC #78 using fuel air explosives may have been a calculated bet to increase the odds of successful damage.
Because the 1st Rounds of Artillery are used to register, ie find out exactly where the rounds are landing, subsequent rounds have to be "adjusted."
Knowing where the priority trarget was (K9's) and collaterall targets (residential/business)is important in determining the initial aim point, just like the Tokyo raids of WW2, incendiary munitions are quite effective agaisnt Asian housing construction.
When it comes to Military matters, the NORKS ain't stupid.
1:31 pm on November 26th, 2010 86
#78 and #83
Mr. Lee – "now we know and now the norKs know. Perhaps that’s what they wanted to see…"
Did you mean – Perhaps that's what they wanted the south to see?
Interesting observation. My guess would be that Joec's second paragraph would be the initiator to an all out battle royal.
1:33 pm on November 26th, 2010 87
"You said you were a KATUSA."
KATUSA's are ROK.
"That’s not hate"
Yes it is hate. You're covering for him because he's your fellow American.
"I don’t consider views like Tom’s as being held by much of a percentage of the Korean population."
I never said I represented Korean population. I represent only one person – Tom.
"So my wife kept her job and stayed a part-time student while I came here to help her mother"
hmm.. why would anyone quit his job for his wife's job? That doesn't make any sense unless you're making next to nothing while your wife is the bread winner. As I suspected, you were probably unemployed, and you're using your wife's father as an excuse to reenter Korea – a country that you hate so much that you put up a anti Korean web page to encourage anti Korean behaviors by Americans.
1:37 pm on November 26th, 2010 88
JoeC (#78), Ole Tanker (#84), and John (#56), this commenter at One Free Korea suggests the thermobaric weapons may not actually have been thermobaric weapons.
1:43 pm on November 26th, 2010 89
Try some basic reading skills.
When you finish college, where do you plan to live?
You've already said you will not return to Korea to defend it if war breaks out. That's a lot love for a nation you love. I guess it is simply a racial thing. You can be a bigot anywhere – without any real sense of patriotism.
Long-time readers will know Kushibo and I have beaten each other up often enough in the past over our differing views on the extend of anti-US/USFK thought in South Korean society – which has been an issue I've covered extensively since the late-1990s, back when there was little coverage of it on the Internet and media.
It would take a mentality like Tom's to see us on the same page.
1:46 pm on November 26th, 2010 90
#87
There shouldn't be a question about what kind of munitions was used since several duds were recovered.
2:04 pm on November 26th, 2010 91
Ah, the mistake of underestimating your foe!! Why assume they used the same ammo for all guns?
What about a "mix" of HE and thermobaric? Maximum effect. Hell I could throw in some duds (bad fuzes)just to confuse the enemy. A Battlefield forensic team can determine what was really used.
2:22 pm on November 26th, 2010 92
usinkorea wrote:
usinkorea, you may have missed the memo, so I'll just bring you up to speed that Tom is Beijing agitprop.
This would be as good a time as any to state that, to a large degree, I had your extensive focus on anti-USFK groups in mind when I wrote my chinboista piece.
1:07 am on November 27th, 2010 93
Tom = Pathetic! I gave you a chance to actually say something intelligent. I guess you just don't have it in you. You say you're attending an institution of higher learning. Which one is it, Ringling Bros. Barnum & Bailey Clown school or the one in Ohio?
1:13 am on November 27th, 2010 94
Dragonfly, read this, this is your answer.
http://rokdrop.com/2010/11/23/what-does-the-north…
9:18 am on November 27th, 2010 95
These comments have become so much of a personal nature and not about the nK-SK problem, I've had to unsubscribe from these posts. If you want to discuss things of a personal nature you should email each other.
9:53 am on November 27th, 2010 96
Tom wrote:
You'd said above that you "served in the ROK military," but my understanding (and I'm sure someone from USFK will correct me if I'm wrong) was that KATUSA's were specifically not ROK Army.
If someone is a KATUSA, is it correct to say that, other than basic training, they served in the ROK military?
11:20 am on November 27th, 2010 97
USinKorea, don't listen to Kushibo. He's retarded. He's been trying to paint me as an oily haired jjankke for a while now. There's no way I'm one of those ch*nks I despise with a passion.
Glans, to answer your question, this is what I recommend South Korea to do. It is obvious to me China is behind North Korea's aggressiveness. North Korea is trying to take Baeknyongdo, Yeongpyongdo, and the other three populated islands in that area. They also want the NLL. North Korea will probably cause a massive panic in South Korea by targeting a populated place – it could be on one of island or even somewhere on the mainland itself. North Korea will demand South Korea redraw the lines in return for ceasefire. You see, North Korea's aim is to aim for South Korea's greatest weakness – its economy. The NK attack will cause a massive panic on the Korean economy which will crash as the mass exodus begins. There are many South Koreans who are afraid of war, and when faced with a reality of a real war really happening, they will try everything in their power to avoid war. South Koreans lead by Jinbo leftist elements will go on the streets demanding peace. The civil disobedience and protests against war will tear the country apart, bringing a leftist government who will sue for peace with North Korea, by giving into North Korea's demands.
So what's the Ch*nks got to do with all this? Well, it's like this, the jjankkes and NK's are real close commy lips and teeth buddies, always have been and always will, no matter what some stupid deluded White man in fancy suits thinks about a benevolent responsible China rising to take on a world's superpower roles (which is so laughable considering that these dirty jjankkes have no moral conscience whatsoever nor any soul). The jjankke Chinamen are using North Korea as their guard dogs that keeps America away, and it also allows the Ch*nkland to checkmate the Japanese at the Senkaku Islands which China is eyeing. Ch*nk man's goal is to unite all of Asia under their influence and drive out the Americans. With North Korea there, this helps China's ultimate goal – to get rid of the US in Asia and become the sole heir to the throne in Asia. If North Korea wins and subdues and controls South Korea (remember, North Korea doesn't have to occupy South Korea to control South Korea), it helps China immensely. Not only they get rid of a thorn on the side economic rival in their back yard that sucks up to the US, they get to rid of the US influence in big part of Asia. China and North Korea controlling a big chunk of Yellow Sea will be a disaster for South Korea and Japan. These Ch*nks will use the momentum to pressure other Asian countries in South East Asia, including all the disputed islands there. Not only will they use the new military power, but also their new found economic power, to bully, pressure and force their way onto every parts of Asia.
So what will happen to South Korea? South Korea will fall into chaos, as both the right (who wants an assertive SK) vs the left (who are pacifists who are afraid of angering NK) go at it with each other's throats. There will be protests and riots all over the country, with debates as to what SK should do. This is easy to create for NK, if they attack with barrages in populated areas, but away from Seoul. Another massive barrage at Baeknyongdo will create a massive stock market crash in Korea which will crash the economy. Then NK can threaten SK with a nuclear missile. Their ultimatum will not be pleasant for SK who must choose between war or giving into nuclear blackmail.
This is what I would do, if I was the President of South Korea. I would warn North Korea, if you dare to strike again in any of our territories, we will destroy you. It means war, all bets are off, we are coming after you. Two things may happen. North Korea takes this warning seriously and will back off. OR, the dirty filthy Ch*nks will egg the North Koreans on, in their secret meetings behind the red curtain.."our people's army will be behind you, comrades". The NK may attack again and bombard Baeknyongdo and Yeongpyongdo at the same time. Then if that happens, if I was the president, I would send in my bombers and bomb the sh*t out of those NK positions in the mountains PLUS, bomb the sh*t out of all of North Korean positions along the DMZ that point their guns at Seoul. Try to neutralize those 20,000+ NK guns at once, as much as possible. Then hammer the NK suspected nuclear facilities, followed by a full invasion of North Korea by a combined operations of South Korean military and the Meatheads who have always been itching to fire their toy guns. Drive all the way to Pyongyang and get rid of this lice called Kim what's his face once and for all and reunite Korea.
Unfortunately, I admit this will cause a massive fatalities to the South Korean populace who once again will have to suffer the consequences of being an unfortunate race of people who are born into a region surrounded, full of f*cked up abnormal countries.
So you Yanks indeed may end up with having your war which you have been so eagerly awaiting. 
Don't hold your breath concerning China, they're secretly helping North Korea, they will never go against North Korea, these rotten jjankke sub human monkies. Their plan is all appearing to me now.
South Korea should get ready for war, and finish the Korean War once and for all.
11:26 am on November 27th, 2010 98
OK, I was drunk and p*ssed off at the Ch*nk monkies when I wrote that. Don't ban me again GI Korea, just because I called bad names and dumb Kushibo wants you to.
11:35 am on November 27th, 2010 99
"OK, I was drunk and p*ssed off at the Ch*nk monkies when I wrote that."
Alcohol = truth serum. Did the truth finally show itself? I do enjoy listening to a Korean racially bashing other Asian peoples. Nice work Tommy!
12:02 pm on November 27th, 2010 100
Tom wrote:
What great entertainment. Your newfound hatred of Chinese is about as believable as you having sobered up from 6:20 p.m. to 6:26 p.m.
And again, stop attributing your ethnic and racial slurs to me. I have made clear I believe there is a high likelihood you are Beijing agitprop, but I do not see Chinese people as "oily haired jjanke" or any other such thing. That stems from your self-loathing and self-hatred, not anything I feel or think.
12:19 pm on November 27th, 2010 101
Just wondering if anybody has seen this article?
If so, what are your thoughts?
12:20 pm on November 27th, 2010 102
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/expa…
was trying the this
I guess that doesn't work on this site?
1:35 pm on November 27th, 2010 103
"I would warn North Korea, if you dare to strike again in any of our territories, we will destroy you."
BUT THEY DID
And if I recall you said nothing should be done; you not even consistent in your own thinking.
1:41 pm on November 27th, 2010 104
I say give them one more warning. And if they don't heed it, then let it rain. This should be the last such warning before we let the dumb meat heads go in there.
1:57 pm on November 27th, 2010 105
Anyway, in the article you'll find at the link, it claims Russia is reporting that all norK expats are being called back to the DPRK apparently – to prepare for war.
2:07 pm on November 27th, 2010 106
After the smoke clears,
Tom is ready to come home, with his superior genes and repopulate "The Brave New World."
2:10 pm on November 27th, 2010 107
Tom, can start over again like in the book, "On the Bietch."
2:25 pm on November 27th, 2010 108
#100+101 – Mr. Lee
As a seriously handi-capped rookie on the subject, it's concerning because the article was written on Saturday the 27th and the first sentence states – "A mass exodus of North Korean workers from the Far East of Russia is under way, according to reports coming out of the region."
If true, this "exodus" was 5 days after the shelling incident and the smoke clearing. I was under the impression that things had calmed down?
3:15 pm on November 27th, 2010 109
Exodus,
Haven't read the article yet, but it is a note of concern. It could be related to too many things besides the attacks.
Over the last few years, NK has recalled the families of diplomats and I believe other elements living abroad. That was mostly likely due to fear of instability in the regime.
All this overlaps, however. Instability increases the likelihood of war.
3:22 pm on November 27th, 2010 110
The joint exercises have begun. The map accompanying this Martin Fackler story implies that China claims almost the whole Yellow Sea as its exclusive economic zone and doesn't acknowledge such a zone for North Korea.
Moreover, I still don't know how a littoral power can exclude foreign navies from its exclusive economic zone. Fishing vessels, sure. But navies? By what right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/world/asia/28ko…
3:25 pm on November 27th, 2010 111
94,
It is ugly, but some of it is necessary.
Tom has been portraying himself as a Korean living in Korea and spewing anger and hate as part of a blood-feud against all the non-Korean bigots.
Where he lives and how much experience he has in South Korea thus becomes pertinent.
Especially since a fair number of the regular commenters here have spent more than a couple of years in South Korea, have spent a fair number of years reading and thinking about Korea, and a fair number have Korean spouses and family in Korea who will be greatly effected by what happens with the North.
4:12 pm on November 27th, 2010 112
Tom is most likely chinese and clearly not Korean.
Kushibo might be wrong about one aspect that is curious for me. He/She clearly doesn't know things about Korea that ANY Korean would know or someone who lived there more than a year. However the tone, the arguments, the baseless attacks on positions never proposed fluctuate wildly and there is an almost genuine surprise at being called for racism he/she has posted leads me to believe there are likely 2-3 Toms if not more.
I think Tom in typical Chinese fashion is a group, a not very bright group good at google bombing but very weak on analysis with no real experience with either Korea or the US military outside of their comfortable Western Universites were they will find many like minded people.
It really isn't important though, nut job or Chinese group whatever calls itself Tom is a nasty piece of work. It laughs at deaths, race baits and feels joy spreading known falsehoods.
4:29 pm on November 27th, 2010 113
For what it's worth, I'll stick with the answers he gave until future events dictate otherwise…
…also because it fits the hunch I had based on having met a few Koreans who have lived most of their lives outside Korea and almost none in Korea as adults.
4:32 pm on November 27th, 2010 114
Also for what its worth – I'm glad Tom has taken the time the last day or so to type out longer posts he's thought through. He still throws in some race-baiting, but the last day's work is a topical discussion.
4:46 pm on November 27th, 2010 115
#107, #108–
The article makes it sound as if it's not diplomats as much as laborers that have been working in parts of Russia. I don't know if you've read about them before, but there is a fairly substantial number of males working on logging projects in Russia. They're basically slave labor leased out to the Russians. If it is true that it is large numbers of healthy males being returned to the north, then I would say they are preparing for something.
4:48 pm on November 27th, 2010 116
A mass exodus of North Korean workers from the Far East of Russia is under way, according to reports coming out of the region. As the two Koreas edged towards the brink of war this week, it appears that the workers in Russia have been called back to aid potential military operations.
Vladnews agency, based in Vladivostok, reported that North Korean workers had left the town of Nakhodka en masse shortly after the escalation of tension on the Korean peninsula earlier this week. "Traders have left the kiosks and markets, workers have abandoned building sites, and North Korean secret service employees working in the region have joined them and left," the agency reported.
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Russia's migration service said that there were over 20,000 North Koreans in Russia at the beginning of 2010, of which the vast majority worked in construction. The workers are usually chaperoned by agents from Kim Jong-il's security services and have little contact with the world around them. Defectors have suggested that the labourers work 13-hour days and that most of their pay is sent back to the government in Pyongyang. Hundreds of workers have fled the harsh conditions and live in hiding in Russia, constantly in fear of being deported back to North Korea.
"North Korea's government sends thousands of its citizens to Russia to earn money, most of which is funnelled through government accounts," says Simon Ostrovsky, a journalist who discovered secret North Korean logging camps in the northern Siberian taiga. "Workers are often sent to remote locations for years at a time to work long hours and get as little as three days off per year." Now it appears that some kind of centralised order has been given for the workers to return home.
Russia's Pacific port of Vladivostok is thousands of miles and seven time zones from Moscow, but only around 100 miles from the country's heavily controlled border with North Korea. In 1996, a diplomat from the South Korean consulate in the city was murdered with a poisoned pencil, in what was widely believed to be a hit carried out by the North's secret agents. There are even two North Korean restaurants in the city. It is not known how many of the workers in other Russian towns have been called back to their homeland this week, or whether the exodus is permanent or temporary.
5:17 pm on November 27th, 2010 117
What does everyone thik, there is going to be an air strike on KN's Nuclear processing facility? An arms factory or military target?
Has everyone lost their minds? Well here is a reminder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSXNJMP8ir4
5:19 pm on November 27th, 2010 118
#144
Exactly. Laborers! Which could mean "expendable", which could also indicate it might just be a ploy. The Norks know that a mass exodus would obviously catch the attention of the Russians, thus the west and SK. If these Norks were of any true value (military or government), then they probably would not be freezing their asses off in Siberia, making extra cash for the NK government.
Just a thought, with absolutely no basis other than the seemingly obvious. It does sound pretty good, though?
5:50 pm on November 27th, 2010 119
Zilchy wrote:
Among several possibilities, I was thinking something along the same lines as you.
5:51 pm on November 27th, 2010 120
Whoops. Screwed up the link. Here.
6:40 pm on November 27th, 2010 121
#111 Hamilton
I am not a tech geek by any stretch, but if Tom is actually more than one person, would the administrator of the drop be able to determine this via the IP address route. Isn't the IP address a permanent part of a computer's software, not able to be changed?
The reason I bring this up, GIKorea has referenced "Tom" a few times on 2-3 recent posts. I understand he has a responsibility to not delve and announce other users personal info., but if GIKorea has determined the source of "Tom's" posts (behind the scenes), then my guess is, it's one person. GIKorea's nature of referencing "Tom" leads me to this conclusion.
Unless, Hamilton's poly-Tom group is using the same computer at the same location, same name and submitting the same e-mail address each time he/she/them have to log in, to post. Or, my take on the IP address realities are way off or GIKorea just did not bother to find out, due to possibly not caring one single bit.
Wow, I need a hobby!
6:48 pm on November 27th, 2010 122
Hey, everybody…
Something quiet is up… either as a precaution or because something interesting is about to happen on the Korean peninsula.
It could be nothing… but…
7:28 pm on November 27th, 2010 123
The North Koreans and the Chinese should just chill out.
"U.S. and South Korean ships got into position in the Yellow Sea on Sunday for the four-day exercise, said Cmdr. Jeff Davis, spokesman for the 7th Fleet in Yokosuka, Japan. He said no live-fire drills wre planned. Officials would not supply exact locations but Yonhap [news agency] said the drills were taking place about 160 kilometers south of Yeonpyeong Island."
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/11/27/world/…
7:34 pm on November 27th, 2010 124
Kushibo, is the mystery of Tom now solved? Is Tom a small group of Chinese students sharing a computer in Canada?
2:46 am on November 28th, 2010 125
Well, I will give Tom credit for actually posting what he would do if he were in charge. And I liked that he acknowledged that there would have to be cooperation between ROK forces and US(Meathead)FK. What he says about China is true. I don't think China has any intent other than keeping both SK, NK, and the U.S. in turmoil. What Tom said about China wanting domination over the entire region is very true. I think a lot of people feel China has somehow transformed itself into a capitalistic form of government/society. They are STILL communists. The Communist Manifesto calls for world domination, by whatever means. It's far more profitable to take over the world by lending world powers money, importing manufacturing jobs from other countries, and then selling those manufactured goods back to the countries that gave up the jobs. Pretty much what has happened to the U.S. Basically Tom's ideas of nueturalizing the artillery, destroying the nuclear facilities, getting rid of the Kims, and reuniting Korea by force if provoked sound good. Of course there would be a lot of details to work out. Like getting the meatheads to sign on. The U.S. does not want to be involved in another war at this time. I would disagree with Tom's statement about SK's biggest weakness being its econonmy. The economy is the biggest strength. The fear of damaging it and the possibility of having to change their lifestyle is the biggest weakness.
About Tom being more than one person. At times, it seems like his sentence structure and words used are slightly or somewhat different from post to post. Maybe, maybe not. Any forensic linguists out there want to check that out? I still don't discount the idea of him being someone who just puts out something crazy and then sits back and laughs everytime someone tries to argue with him.
3:09 am on November 28th, 2010 126
I give Tom credit for sitting down and thinking through a post and putting his thoughts out in depth. He contradicted himself between days, but I'd rather see him taking the time to put thought and effort into comments rather than race-baiting.
I can even handle some race-baiting if the comment is longish and mostly trying to make and support an argument…
3:34 am on November 28th, 2010 127
What great theater!
Tom on November 27 (#96):
Why, we might even forget that the "drunk" Tom who wrote that is the SAME Tom who wrote THIS on October 4:
Conclusion: Tom is simply here as agitprop, as his October 4 gives away a form of pro-Beijing sentiment not shared by any significant group anywhere in South Korea's political spectrum, including the pro-Pyongyang chinboistas.
Once he (or they*) is outed as an pro-Beijing agitpropping troll, he must backtrack (as he often does when he's called out) and make a big pitch that he's not really that, hence his slur-filled (HIS slurs) faux invective to indict the Chinese.
Great entertainment from the agitprop troll sitting comfortably in Toronto.
* I certainly think it's possible that there's a team of Tianjin Toms in Toronto writing all the agitprop, but I haven't yet seen compelling evidence. The different "voices" of Tom is quite easily explained by what would happen when his m.o. (tossing out divisive agitprop meant to act as a wedge) is called out from different sides. When that happens, to protect his true intent, he simply turns and lobs a volley in that new direction, paying no mind to consistency.
4:03 am on November 28th, 2010 128
I forgot to add something. If Tom is indeed a KoKo living abroad* and the views he expresses are indeed his actual views (which I've never said was impossible but appears to be unlikely given his inconsistent bio and his lack of on-the-ground knowledge of Korea at a time he said he was here), then he has been in Canada so long that he himself has become that "stupid deluded White man in fancy suits thinks about a benevolent responsible China rising to take on a world’s superpower roles."
Well, maybe without the fancy suit. I'm guessing a York University sweatshirt with loads of grease stains, and possibly no pants.
* I'll reiterate my position in a nutshell here. Given Tom's combined pro-Beijing hegemony agitation and vehement anti-USFK stance that is uncharacteristic of any part of the South Korean political spectrum, plus my experience with Beijing agitprop in Hawaii (and a little in Seoul), I have come to believe Tom is likely Beijing agitprop meant to drive a wedge between USFK affiliates (the majority on this list, which is a top blog for USFK affiliates) and "Koreans" represented by him. Given the inconsistencies in his bio and his lack of knowledge about actual conditions in Korea, it is possible that he is as he says — a KoKo residing in Toronto going to grad school — but if he is an ethnic Korean (a KoKo or a kyopo) he is one who has lived little of his adult life in Korea but who seems to have developed a N.A.-style leftist view of the US military and has steeped his views in that. I also hold out the possibility that he is a Mizar, someone posing as a Korean who grew up in Korea but whose presence here is meant to agitate simply so he can get off on it.
Regardless of which of these three scenarios (or some variation?) is true, the primary point still stands: Tom does not represent any typical South Korean view, attitude, or sentiment, and shouldn't be taken as such, even if he wants to be seen as a typical South Korean to further his m.o. of driving a wedge.
4:31 am on November 28th, 2010 129
Or Tom could be all three, with three heads.
I had the biggest laugh of the week. Thanks Kuoshibao!
Now do you guys want to talk about this topic or do you guys want to talk about Tom?
Can't a guy change his mind after the biggest attack on South Korea since the Korean War by North Korea? I guess not, according to Mr. Detective.
4:49 am on November 28th, 2010 130
Yep, laugh it off. If Tom laughs, there can't be any truth to it, right? Right?!
Tom's use of the lol emoticon goes up in proportion to how hard he is trying to change the subject at the moment.
Anyway…
It wasn't the biggest. The sinking of the Ch'ŏnan was bigger (twelve times as many people killed), and after that, China protected North Korea and nothing got done as a result. A few months after China stepped in to shield the murderers in Pyongyang, you gushed that "Korea's future is with rising China."
Your change of heart is for show, Tom, an obfuscation meant to draw attention from your trolling, wedge-driving m.o. Just like your change of heart over the attack on Yŏnpyŏng-do. Today you call it "the biggest attack on South Korea since the Korean War by North Korea" because it suits you as a seemingly plausible reason for your convenient switch on China, but not long after it happened, you wrote:
So is it "the biggest attack in half a century" or is it "just a skirmish" in a "disputed area"? Do you even try for consistency in your agitprop trolling?
5:22 am on November 28th, 2010 131
I used to enjoy reading the ROKDROP and even occasionally commenting on a topic or two, but in recent weeks, coming here is like watching a bunch of juveniles argue over whose daddy can beat up who. Why don't you guys give it a rest with the "Tom" crap? It distracts from the topics that could be interesting discussions and it like a disease that keeps mutating and it has made coming here quite boring.
I know my opinion is just that – an opinion, but the comments on our about Tom just take up space. When nearly half of the 130 posts in a thread are not related to the topic but to Tom, it just makes one want to drop the ROKDROP from their daily reading list.
JMHO – now carry on with your to and fro on the ROKDROP's favorite topic… TOM.
5:29 am on November 28th, 2010 132
#130, I know, this is getting ridiculous.
5:46 am on November 28th, 2010 133
Thomas Lee (#130), I'm sorry that you feel that way. I believe, however, that you are a bit off in your recollection and interpretation of what's going on.
For starters, Tom was a troll whose racism-laden comments often derailed the comments section <a href="http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tom+racist+site:rokdrop.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8" rel="nofollow">long before I offered my theory of him as agitprop. IOW, it certainly did not start with me.
My desire here is for two things: commenting characterized by factual information and good will. Tom not only provides neither, he tries to undermine both, and when he does, I sometimes point out where he is wrong. His motivation in trolling and insulting commenters does present itself as an important factor sometimes, especially as he falsely depicts himself as a typical KoKo.
One need to look no further than <a href="http://rokdrop.com/2010/11/19/american-teenager-gets-off-light-after-rope-stringing-incident/" rel="nofollow">this post to see that Tom's trolling m.o. is to turn things around so that he can gratuitously bash USFK and other Americans in Korea. That troll right there is the source that "distracts from the topics that could be interesting discussions."
6:34 am on November 28th, 2010 134
Kush:
I've been following it all enough to understand how it all has transpired, my only point is that the more you feed anything, the more it grows.
If it were on a topic here or there that it happens, that would be more understandable, but it seems that on just about ever topic, the discussion gets turned to "Tom" and the original discussion gets lost. IMHO, the best thing to do is just ignore his rants and eventually he'll either stop or go away.
Again, all this is just my opinion.
I won't post on this matter any more or I'll just be falling into the same trap.
6:42 am on November 28th, 2010 135
Thomas Lee wrote:
Tom turns the discussion himself.
Tom is a troll. We can blame everyone else for reacting to the troll, but if he cannot stop being a troll, the he shouldn't be here.
Tom minus trolling = intriguing commenter with contrarian views
But I doubt he can stop being a troll, because his entire m.o. for being here is to drive a wedge.
In my ever so humble opinion, GI Korea should either put him on permanent moderation (since he has proven he can't control his own trolling even after being in temporary moderation) or just recognize that his m.o. is to be disruptive and wedge-driving and just ban him.
7:13 am on November 28th, 2010 136
And back to the subject at hand…
South Korea should get the hell out of the NPT and develop nuclear weapons. Hell with the objections by the Americans who probably would secretly cheer on Korea anyway. The US will never publicly support a South Korean nuclear weapon because they're afraid of nuclear proliferation. So it is up to South Korea to take the bull by the horn and develop the weapons just to p*ss on China. The US will huff and puff for show, like China does when North Korea does something bad, but also like China vies a vie North Korea, at the end of the day, the US will be on board with South Korea when it comes to developing nuclear weapons. I expect the US will veto any sanctions by the UN on South Korea, like they do for Israel and give tacit approval to South Korea. Too bad I'm not the one in charge of South Korean government because I would have try to wheel and deal with the US for mutual benefit. The US and S.Korea cannot trust that talking to China and hoping that they will pressure the North Koreans will do any good. It's time to play the same game that they're playing. If you can't beat them, join them.
7:31 am on November 28th, 2010 137
Tom (#135), I think you are a bit misguided on this.
Getting South Korea or Japan out of the NPT is a feel-good measure that is a disaster all the way around. Such rhetoric is typical of thought that fails to consider how other groups might react. If South Korea or Japan gets it, so would the other, and as soon as Japan gets it, we see a massive stockpiling of conventional weaponry and forces in Northeast Asia by China and probably Russia, with Taiwan buying even more in order to offset what it sees as a further growing Chinese threat. Japan, in turn, would feel a need to do the same, and eventually so would South Korea.
In the end, doing something "just to piss on/off China" would lead to economic waste and possible economic ruin (the Soviet Union collapsed, in part, because it couldn't keep up), and would pile so much dry tinder in Northeast Asia that that the smallest spark could lead to a disastrous war with conventional forces.
South Korea and Japan are comfortably under the US's nuclear umbrella.
7:52 am on November 28th, 2010 138
It's funny how the conversations go from the topic, to Tom, to talking about talking about Tom.
Tom #135: Now THAT'S what a post should look like. An honest assessment according to the way you see it.
8:04 am on November 28th, 2010 139
China and Russia stockpiling weapons is already a fact for many years anyway. South Korea getting a nukes has no bearings on Chinese arms proliferation. It will happen anyway no matter what.
Only those who have the technological capability and the backings will get to own the bomb. And that's South Korea and Japan who can develop them in matter of months.
Not too many countries have that technological and production capability, and not too many countries have the backings of the greatest nation in the history of the world, the United States of America.
Taiwan is a different story though. I am less than thrilled with these sohm-jjankkes who are anti Korean at all levels including their government who is instrumental in fanning the anti Korean feelings over some flimsiest of excuses, with the latest being some Taekwondo competition that nobody cares about. If those f*ckers get the bomb, they may use it on us. Their national characteristic reminds me of the right wing Japanese on one hand, and the Chinese PRC nationalist on the other. Both of their groups are untrustworthy and evil. I don't give a sh*t if China takes over that sh*t hole called Thailand or whatever they call themselves over there – they're not much different from other Chinese. Good riddance.
The problem with the US nuclear shield is that it does not do anything to put pressure on the Chinese to stop collaborating with the North Koreans. You have to play hardball with these people. Because that's all they understand. So what if Japan gets the bomb? So what SK gets the bomb? These are the good guys who are getting the bomb. The US should be happy to fortify the defenses of free Asia.
8:18 am on November 28th, 2010 140
The real enemy IS China. The NK's are just the schmucks who will throw the first punch and then end up with a whipped ass. China will do nothing in this situation unless it benefits them, and harms SK and the U.S.
8:19 am on November 28th, 2010 141
Now there's report in sk media that Kim of nk ordered the 5 sk islands taken over by nk by landing nk special forces suddenly. Possible target date as of Jan. Perhaps this was a prep for it?
Will see. I really hope sk is better prepared next time.
8:29 am on November 28th, 2010 142
I really hope NK attacks again. It will be a good excuse to drive all the way to Pyongyang. And if that happens, I'll take the next ship back to ROK to join the military.
8:50 am on November 28th, 2010 143
Tom wrote:
Your assessment is wrong because of two things. First, you're assuming only one type of arms proliferation, when in fact the increase in nuclear arms would have a concomitant increase in conventional forces due to nervousness about what the other side(s) is(are) doing. This is where the economic and geopolitical disasters (likely leading to large-scale war) would come.
Second, you're looking at "proliferation" as a binary "yes" or "no" proposition, when in fact one has to look at the degree of nuclear capability. If Japan or South Korea got more nukes, then China and Japan would develop more nukes than they have now, which would force South Korea and Japan (and whoever else decided they also then need nukes) to build more nukes. Not to mention the conventional forces these nervous arms-racers would feel a need to get.
Again, end result is economic waste and possible ruin, and a contributing factor to a possible explosion of the powder keg.
South Korea or Japan getting nukes provides zero positives, unless the US is out of northeast Asia, which is unlikely. How do you use a nuke except to attack someone else who has a nuke (or doesn't). It would be useless in preventing attacks like those North Korea is conducting.
And the same would be true of South Korea going nuclear. It's only good as a bargaining chip, and even then there are better tools available, like Seoul re-establishing diplomatic relations with Taipei.
8:54 am on November 28th, 2010 144
I agree with the other Tom about that we should not try to prevent SK from developing nuclear weapons. With the US nuclear deterrent there will ALWAYS be a doubt if we would use it to defend SK. If SK had their own nuclear deterrent there can be NO doubt that the SK would use it to prevent their country from being over run. The other Tom has made some good points about Red China & NK but many of his good points are obliterated with the racial invective that he puts in his post. NK really f'd up this time because civilians were killed in the attack. I think that if the NK attack again any time soon that the SK WILL respond militarily. If the SK respond & then if the NK fail to respond then the bequeathal of power from KJI to KJU might be in jeopardy, hopefully.
10:11 am on November 28th, 2010 145
kushibo 142, I didn't know about the absence of diplomatic relations between South Korea and China. Yes, that would be a good way to slap China's face. Of course, the South Koreans would have to think about the volume of their trade with China.
And a general comment to everyone: the civilians killed on Yeonpyeong were working on a military base. I'm not saying it was OK to kill them. It was horrible to kill them, just as it was horrible to kill the two marines, and the forty-six sailors on the Cheonan. But this wasn't the a targeted killing of civilians.
10:16 am on November 28th, 2010 146
On the Tom situation, for my part, I'll only step off topic when he is representing himself as an ultra-Korean patriot currently living in South Korea.
I am happy to see him the last couple of days taking the time to write out detailed thoughts on the primary topic of the post…
10:19 am on November 28th, 2010 147
144
I agree with this. If the attack had taken place during war, it would not have been considered a war crime. It is a crime and act of war in which civilians died, but the North was firing artillery at South Korean military units – and given the imprecision of even 21st century munitions, civilian deaths happen.
North Korea saying the South is using "human shields" is also crap.
10:25 am on November 28th, 2010 148
Glans wrote:
You mean the absence of diplomatic relations with Taiwan (the Republic of China, not the People's Republic of China), right?
I've addressed it HERE. Word of advice, Glans: Read all 3097 posts on my blog and you'll know 95% of what you need to know about Korea.
Anyway, South Korea unilaterally rejecting the One-China Policy would be a great snub. More to the point: the threat of doing so could provide considerable diplomatic leverage.
Utterly irrelevant. They were civilians nonetheless, doing subcontractor work. It is only a stroke of luck that no more civilians were killed when North Korea rained killer weapons on a civilian population. They took out houses, nearly a township government office and a shopping center.
10:28 am on November 28th, 2010 149
usinkorea wrote:
I know what you mean, but if this had taken place during war, we wouldn't even be talking about Yŏnpyŏng… it would be one of many fires raging, with numerous civilian deaths.
The whole point is that we're NOT in a state of active war. At best we have a long-standing de facto peace, and worst we have a long-standing ceasefire.
They bombed a civilian town. They get no excuses on a technicality that the civilians (who were not armed, had no armor, and didn't have any means to defend themselves) were contractors on a military base.
10:58 am on November 28th, 2010 150
I think what Glans meant was the same as what I did: Given the nature of the imprecision of weapons, even in this day and age, civilian deaths are to be expected even if the primary targets are military installations.
It is lucky that more civilian (and soldiers) were not killed. And the attack is illegal and an act of war to be condemned greatly.
It wasn't, however, the same thing as a suicide bomber in a crowded market.
Or to put it another way, since we are not at war, the killing of the soldiers was first degree murder just as much as the killing of the civilians.
South Korean society would do its men in uniform a great service if they would value their lives as much as they do the two civilians killed.
10:59 am on November 28th, 2010 151
kushibo 147, yes I meant:
"I didn’t know about the absence of diplomatic relations between South Korea and Taiwan. Yes, that would be a good way to slap China’s face. Of course, the South Koreans would have to think about the volume of their trade with China."
which you correctly guessed and responded to.
I don't think I'll ever catch up with your blog, this blog, or Joshua Stanton's blog.
Yes, it is relevant that the North Korean armed forces didn't deliberately target civilians this time, as their agents have in the past. At least, if you're trying to figure out what they're up to and how far they want to go.
11:21 am on November 28th, 2010 152
We always wonder how far the N Koreans are willing to go. I think this is the problem.
No one is wondering how far America is willing to go. Second part of the problem.
The answer to the problem is violence. There is ample cause to expect violence from ANY OTHER country—except America. That is and will always be—a problem.
While no rational person wants violence, the North is not rational. Therefore, the answer is to hit them in kind—AT LEAST.
Sometimes a slap in the face works wonders.
And PLEASE—Stop feeding these people. No wonder they think Americans are fools. Too much thinking and not enough action.
12:07 pm on November 28th, 2010 153
There are non-military options that will threaten Pyongyang as much or more than limited military strikes: The banking sanctions a couple of years ago, which the US got China to implement, made North Korea squeal like a pig – which is exactly why I predicted the North would test a nuclear bomb within a year – which they did.
China is always the key. Cutting off aid and attacking North Korea's illegal streams of money and getting China to cut drastically the aid it gives the North would cause it to collapse. NK knows that, and if NK is capable of concessions and following through on agreements at all, it will only come about when its survival is threatened through economic means. Limited military strikes might get it to think twice before using military provocations, but a more sure way to accomplish that and more is to attack its livelihood.
12:38 pm on November 28th, 2010 154
As for restoring diplomatic ties with Thailand, I say no. They are still Chinese and they are no better. Island Chinese are still Chinese – they are both anti Koreans.
Both China and North Korea have been in this together for a long time. It says here China and North Korea's fraud show:
모든게 명백해졌다, 中-北 짜고치는 사기쇼!
http://www.newdaily.co.kr/news/article.html?no=63…
China gave Pakistan the nuke technology. Pakistan then passed it on to Syria and Lybia. And North Korea was part of China's strategy to receive the know how too. So you think China had any intention to cooperate with the international community as a six party talks chairman? No fcking way man! Their strategy is that they want to make it look like they were cooperating to take the pressure off of North Korea and get North Korea financial rewards, and then frustrate their enemies. This was all a staged game by those two commie rats! Not that this is news, but for those who think we can negotiate with these bacterias, it's not going to happen. It's time to exterminate these rats, and the best way is to not to cooperate with them in any area. The US should go for nuclear proliferation of their own with their allies, since China is doing the same thing, why not?
12:53 pm on November 28th, 2010 155
And the biggest fault ultimately lies with you guys, the US. You guys gave the Chinese the open market, the most favored trading nation status, the entry into WTO, and bought tons of cheap stuff to help their economy, all the while these rats were stabbing you in the back, and you didn't even know it – all because you were greedy and thought you guys can control them.
And this is the Beijing agitprop talking here..
1:22 pm on November 28th, 2010 156
Comment #154, Good points Beijing agitprop, lol.
4:38 pm on November 28th, 2010 157
Here's a review of seven books on China. (Unfortunatly, you have to pay for it.) The first on the list–
China Watcher: Confessions of a Peking Tom
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/dec…
4:42 pm on November 28th, 2010 158
It is time for a Military strike on their side of the DMZ. Take out those guns that threaten Seoul.
The DPRK's strike on the island was a GIFT! Justification for an American strike.
But America will only TALK. As the DPRK knows and the Chinese.
It is no wonder there is little if any respect for America. No one respects a paper tiger.
It is just frigging Sad. America is a joke if it does not strike.
Nearly criminal for allowing the DPRK to get away with this violation of the cease fire.
America encourages further strikes in the future by not slapping them down now.
Someone go and get the next Patton. There has to be one out there.
Ship sunk, 35 dead. Island shelled, 4 dead. No. I know! Lets TALK about it. Make them see REASON. Lets get REALLY cleaver and get China to help us turn off the money.
See you this time next year.
We can talk about it again — after they do something else to get attention.
5:32 pm on November 28th, 2010 159
America has no authority to do anything unilaterally against North Korea unless Americans are attacked directly.
This situation is South Korea's call.
11:53 pm on November 28th, 2010 160
JoeC says, "America is helpless to do ANYTHING! S Korea is in CONTROL." What a load of kaka.
America has been putting LIMITS on what the ROK can do since WWII ended. Not the other way around.
The Korean war itself was a result of limits placed on the ROK by it's Guardian, big brother America.
America has but to give the ok for controled (and justified) violence to begin.
It is America's call.
3:19 am on November 29th, 2010 161
SOUTH KOREA HAS RETALIATED!
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/28/s…
Well… kinda-sorta.
3:42 am on November 29th, 2010 162
ACK! They fired a shell and hit their own side of the DMZ
I…I…I can't find the words to express my feelings
I can see Kim Jung Ill and his son—elbowing each other and laughing. I hope the elder Kim survives this gut buster. (well, I really don't give a rat's a$$)
3:49 am on November 29th, 2010 163
ChickenHead, I had to post that link to my Facebook. Too damn funny.
They sent word that they were SORRY
That it was a mistake 
DOH!!
4:01 am on November 29th, 2010 164
That news is at least a day old. After being the only one who seemed to say anything about it, I figured it was interesting (funny even, since no one got hurt from it) only to me.
Any insight from the military folks on how this kind of thing could happen? Does it happen occasionally/often and it's only now newsworthy because of all the tension? Are people trigger-happy?
4:20 am on November 29th, 2010 165
Leon Laporte's son managed to fire 180 degrees away from the target and successfully shelled an old woman's front yard. I guess that is why he came to Korea… so daddy could care for him.
I have noticed that average Koreans are starting to take notice of military readiness… and they are unhappy and distrusting.
4:24 am on November 29th, 2010 166
#160
Some poor sk soldier thought he heard 'This is NOT a drill'.
Btw, sk is reinforcing the the shelled island with ROK army's MLRS. Think 6 are already on the island now. K10 (ammo carrier/supply) vehicles will also be moved to the island(s).
8:51 am on November 29th, 2010 167
Actually, I met (then) MAJ LaPorte. Seemed like a pretty good guy. I think all officers deserve an oh shit every once in a while as long as they are trying to do the right thing. The zero mistake military is crap. Too bad your dad must be a general officer for you to get another chance. Anyway, it's not his fault who his father was.