By The good folks over at This Ain’t Hell bring word that military pay may soon be frozen:
Fueling speculation on the matter, the co-chairs of the president’s panel on reducing the deficit have recommended a freeze on basic military pay and housing allowances for three years. The panel’s final report will be released Wednesday. [via This Ain't Hell]
You can read more at the link, but I wouldn’t have a problem with this if it was part of some wider US government austerity measures to reduce the federal deficit by freezing the pay of everyone in the US government to include Congress. Better yet what if the US government worker’s pay was put in line with what the US military makes?
However, what I suspect will happen is that the pay freeze will come in some sneaky fashion or be so small that politicians can’t be accused of cutting the pay of the military while they are fighting a war.
6:55 pm on December 3rd, 2010 1
I say “yes”. Well.. you asked the question..
7:55 pm on December 3rd, 2010 2
High-income people, who create jobs for the rest of us, are suffering. We need to show our gratitude for all they've done. The military should take a pay cut. Civil servants should work as volunteers. Teachers should be furloughed. The unemployed should eat less and sleep under the stars. Illegal immigrants, especially kids, should go back where they came from.
9:59 pm on December 3rd, 2010 3
Everybody is looking for somebody else to blame. Truth be told, cuts should be across the board and piss just about everybody off on some level.
11:00 pm on December 3rd, 2010 4
Should all Koreans overseas return to their motherland and volunteer to defend their own country?
11:03 pm on December 3rd, 2010 5
#4 LL. No…Just Tommie Boy
11:31 pm on December 3rd, 2010 6
GI Korea wrote:
I think it is part of that same kind of thing. I’ve been listening to a lot of PBS reports on this austerity plan and it’s pretty painful across the board.
And Obama did in fact announce a two-year freeze of civilian US government employee pay this past week. It will save a whopping $5 billion, I think.
2:59 am on December 4th, 2010 7
Glans, you sound like one of those whiners who blames the produce-nothing-but-makes-lots-of-money types for mucking up our economy with sleight-of-hand get-rich-quick schemes that dominated Wall Street for the past decade, when it’s really the fault of everyone else for trusting them.
It’s like we wanted to be victims. Shame on us.
7:20 am on December 4th, 2010 8
“Should all Koreans overseas return to their motherland and volunteer to defend their own country?”
What for? There’s no war yet.
8:04 am on December 4th, 2010 9
Yes. It makes no sense for other people in the Federal government to be forced to take a pay freeze and then turn around and exempt the military from said pay freezes.
9:35 am on December 4th, 2010 10
I had no idea that being a Soldier was the same as being a Federal "employee".
Didn't feel the same.
Didn't pay the same either.
I'm still wondering if Congress (six figure incomes) will share in these cuts.
But no, lets go for the Troops pay. What do the troops earn?
But what the hell. Cut it enough and they will be back on food stamps like in the 80's.
9:42 am on December 4th, 2010 11
Retired GI, I guess your comment (#10) wasn't directed at me (#4), but I'll just clarify anyway that I was merely reporting the Federal employee pay freeze, not suggesting that the US military should be a part of that.
Frankly, given the life-threatening nature of military employment, freezing pay for troops doesn't sit well with me.
At the same time, it doesn't sit well with me how many lower- and middle-class people are going to be suffering and paying, through these deficit reduction measures, for the screw-ups of the elites who got us to where we are now.
10:28 am on December 4th, 2010 12
Before attempting to compare military to US government employee pay, one has to first figure out a way to link rank in the military to rank in the government service, which isn't so cut and dry.
I've often heard that a GS-12 in the government service is the equivilent of an 0-4 in the military, and when you compare the two they're actually pretty similar in terms of base pay, so I just don't see this huge disparity in pay that people here are referring to.
In fact, I don't even think it's a fair to try and compare them; they're two different animals.
A more fair comparison that would far better illustrate the point that some of you are trying to make would be to look at contractors who perform soldier type duties and soldiers who perform similar duties.
Regardless of who gets what and for whatever reasons, active duty military pay shouldn't be frozen imho, especially not right now.
1:32 pm on December 4th, 2010 13
They should do away with LQA for Civil Service. The "Regulatory" justification for it is to attract highly skilled hard-to-get personnel overseas.
The people who take those jobs want to be overseas in Korea anyway. That includes everyone I know, 90% GS folks in Korea are incompetent worthless @sskiss8ng rat turds anyway
"i love in Korea Honey
know not for the money
my country best for me
give me LQA you see"
haiku day???
2:35 pm on December 4th, 2010 14
There's more LQA envy in Korea than any other place I have ever traveled to.
3:24 pm on December 4th, 2010 15
Ronald, pay between a GS-12 and an 04 may be roughly the same but the duty is not.
I know some GS-12s that put in more than the required work load but many are out the door at 1700 on the dot and the 04s still have many an hour to finish projects. Weekends, holidays, and family events…please… Try to deprive a GS worker of leave, now tell the 04 that he just didn't manage his leave well.
How about deployments, and not to tax free areas? How about family separation? How about living in a faroukin tent?
Here is what I saw from the GS crowd. 1-2 GS empoyees would show up at just before 0800hrs. The rest would show up at 0855. At 1125 the whole crew is out the door and back by 1315. Finished working at 1630 and pack bags and BS untill 1700 then out the door. 1-2 would stay and actually work, the same guys who came in early.
Active Duty team. 1-2 in before 0630 for specific projects. 40% in before 0730, the rest in before 0800. Short lunches for most, no lunch for some or eaten at desk working. 1730ish 1-2 depart for family events (Birthdays, graduations, sports etc.) 20% complete at 1830, 70% complete by 1930, 1-2 pulling out at 2200hrs. Wash mix repeat. The office would be 25% full on any given weekend.
5:14 pm on December 4th, 2010 16
That's odd. The civil service guys I worked with were usually there before the .mil guys (of course they didn't have unit PT and other distractors) and left about the same time. I have seen more than one "brown bag" in the office and remain there to handle projects, answer questions, etc.
I think it depends on where the civilian is working- if he is in a job which is more specialized in nature, he is a real bridge of continuity and expertise which the military side just can't get to because of personnel turnover.
6:27 pm on December 4th, 2010 17
Trying to compare a serviceman's work schedule and pay to anyone other than another serviceman is futile. The job, the duty, the commitment, they're all in a class of their own, which is why I again say, don't mess with their pay. Too much is already expected of them. If you can't take care of the ones who protect you and your nation's interests, then who can you take care of?
No one should take offense at what I'm about to type. The following is nothing more than how I percieve things to be in Korea through the lens of the ROKDROP comments section.
GS types are lazy bastards. They show up to work late, take long lunches and go home early. They get something called LQA and it pisses a whole hell of a lot of other people off. Other than that, they're generally pretty decent guys.
Contractors are whores in Korea for nothing more than the money and cheap plane tickets to the PI and Thailand. They generally have long hair, a goat-tee and are a member of a biker group. If they're not a member of a biker group, they secretly aspire to be one and are jealous of those who have prospected and become a true patched brother. If your name is Bonner and you used to work at CCK, don't even think about it. They go out of their way to NOT look like a GI, and will do this at any cost. They like their toys, and like to flaunt them. Most of them were married to or dated Koreans at one time, but have recently traded those old bags in for Flippers. Flippers speak better English so the communication problems that were present in the relationship with the Korean are no longer a problem. Plus, the Flipper is in 99% of cases, at least 15 years younger than the Korean who mothered their children, which naturally makes her more attractive to the middle aged contractor with cash. They can afford to dump the Korean wife and kids and pick up an extended Flipper family in the PI – because they're contractors with cash! Bottom line: they make a lot of money and are tax free. They ride bikes and have lots of friends, so don't !uck with them.
Korea and Koreans just suck ass. Everything about the place sucks. They can't drive. They hate American beef. Korean women are psycho. Yellow dust and kimchee breath. Korea sucks so bad I have no idea why any of you stay.
Flippers are all ex-juicy whores out to screw young and innocent Mr. GI over. If you're stupid enough to marry one, you automatically become responsible for the entire extended clan regardless of their geographical disposition, which could be anywhere on the globe when it comes to Filipinos. They reproduce like rabbits, and are therefore the preferred mate of choice for the Joe who's wanting a family.
GI's like to get drunk and stab taxi drivers. Occasionally they'll visit an orphanage or help a farmer harvest rice up in 2ID, but these are nothing more than PR stunts designed to disguise the real GI. They rape and murder Korean women, drive in the bus lane, and stab taxi drivers, bottom line!!!
American dependents are fat trailer trash types with bunches of kids.
Engrish teachers, regardless of country of origin, are smarter than everyone else in Korea. They sometimes like to smoke weed and film gang bags with Korean girls, and then brag about it on Dave's ESL. They all blog about something. This is a 100% certainty.
I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of for now.
8:29 pm on December 4th, 2010 18
OW! A lot of that IS true… but I still maintain that there are more than a few civil service- and even blood sucking contractors- who are the guys holding the roof up. Yeah- there ARE plenty of the other douches you write/speak of, but the guys out there who have the contacts, and the continuity and (highly likely) former senior NCO/officer level experience in theater are gems on which the .mil should capitalize. Don't expect them to be field grade action officers- they aren't- but leverage the hell out of their experience.
Filipinas will throw a f&ck on you that you won't forget, and unlike Korean cave women, they'll actually pretend to like you while they do it. The ROK cave women are all business, just like their rental counterparts- unless they want something. Then they could win a damn Oscar for acting.
8:52 pm on December 4th, 2010 19
"GS types are lazy bastards. They show up to work late, take long lunches and go home early."
You don't read so well Ronald.
GS employees get paid for a 9-5 job without weekends and take lunch during the typical 1130-1300 spot. If they hit those marks then they are doing their job. Same for contractors, that is what a contract is for.
I only mentioned that in Korea this would be a dream job for many 04s (not all, there are some toads out there)
I used to giggle like a school girl when the command would designate 1/2 days during the Christmas time frame. That meant I only had to work from 6am-6pm and listen to GS types moan about how they had to stay at work till 5 unlike GIs.
I have no idea where the rest of the crap you mentioned came from, seems you have been listening to our favorite CHICOM Canadian scrounge too much.
9:19 pm on December 4th, 2010 20
My reply wasn't directed at you personally Hamilton. It was a summary of everything I've learned from reading the ROKDROP comments section for years and years. I was being sarcastic.
9:30 pm on December 4th, 2010 21
Ronald,
Okay, but for every vile position you posted there have been a dozen counter arguments.
For the record I made no negative remarks about GS personnel. They are supposed to be at work for a set number of hours and they do that. I think they are necessary and have seen many who punch above their weight and even work extra hours without making a big deal. I was only pointing out the fallacy of comparing the work and pay to an 04.
9:50 pm on December 4th, 2010 22
Don't forget– LQA is not an entitlement but an incentive. It's pretty much the same rate as officer OHA.
Civil service employees get "post allowance" which is a few bucks a day. There is no COLA for them.
But they have the option of bidding for another job, too.
The grass is always greener on the other side!
1:05 am on December 5th, 2010 23
Ronald, #14 and #17, kudos brother you are very perceptive, Korea, GS system and LQA, it has so corrupted the works, that people are judged by whether they get LQA or not. Those who get it are treated like they are more valuable to society. Let's divide it up into the "haves and have nots.
Must be some kind of social theory behind it.
The attitude is the same toward LQA in other places like Germany.
In post #17, You got it! Americans in Korea to a tee in a nutshell
1:16 pm on December 5th, 2010 24
Once a guy in Korea gets his GS job he starts blowing smoke up the boss's $ss that he is the only one who can do the job.
The Boss starts to believe it. Where actually the 80th percentile of normal folks could do a job, the Boss in Korea is convinced (by self mostly) that it is true, (Only Joe Blow Kiss ass LQA) can do this job, "Gee I better extend him."
Most GS jobs can be done by an imbecil, because that is the level we have relegated it to.
5:14 pm on December 7th, 2010 25
As stated before LQA is an incentive to get people to take positions in SK. There is also a 1~2 grade inflation that happens out here for the same reason, things a GS-9 would be doing back stateside they code for a GS-11. You take away either of those and it has the same effect as removing EB / SRB from the US Military, which is a sudden shortage of personal. The Military can force people to do jobs (although it can't force them to do well) and to work times / places, you do that to a civilian and they'll just find a better job somewhere else. Both civil service and defense contracting most compete with the private industry for talent. Now I can only speak of the IT industry but there is serious bank to be made for people who have connections and can perform when it matters. Enticing those people to take jobs with in federal service or in contracting is a balancing act in and of itself.
What I find very interesting is that 90%+, and I'm being real here, of the contractors I've seen are prior-service Military. I did 8.5 years in the US Active Army, I have co workers who've done 6 years Active Army or 8 years Active Airforce / Navy. Several co workers who are 20+ year retired enlisted members. They all did their time, got an honorable discharge or retirement and continued their life as a defense contractor instead of moving on to IBM / Intel / Microsoft / Google / Dell / Symantec type places. Maybe there is a hole somewhere full of these evil bearded gnomes who's whole purpose is to screw up the system, but if there is one I've never seen it.
We get accused of "its not my job / contract" responses but I've ~never ever~ seen that happen once. Not in my entire 8.5 years of Active Army, working side by side with defense contracting, nor my handful of years as a defense contractor. The US Military is our customer and we do whatever we have to do to keep the customer happy. Being asinine to your customer is a good way to have your customer find another provider for the service they require. Now the ones I do see using that fcking excuse are the long-term civil employees. Not saying most civilian employees are like this, but Korean definitely attracts a certain breed that like to do the absolute minimum required to not be dismissed. My personal thinking is they hang around SK because of the incentives and how difficult it is to get people to stay here. Their not representative of the whole civil service corps but are just the strap hangers who naturally drift to the places of least resistance.
So really, those active duty / retired members who like to bash contractors, try to first remember that most of us served our time just like you. This was an employment opportunity that allowed us to leverage out unique skill sets obtained while serving our country. You can hate on the company itself, but don't hate on the worker bee's just doing their job.
-=Snip=-
Civil Service employees using the General Schedule (GS) scale can be equated using the following. The highest GS is 15 which is considered director level, often in place of an O6 depending on the organization.
O3 / CPT -> GS 9
O4 / MAJ -> GS 11
O5 / LTC -> GS 13
06 / COL -> GS 15
O7+ -> SES scale, these guys are basically Gods for the civil service.
Its important to note this because commissioned officers are considered representatives of the federal government just like civil service employees.
2:54 am on December 23rd, 2010 26
ok lets make a more informed decision on this
the base pay scale for GS types is the equil to an officers pay but who does most of the work in a command as far as turning wrenches/fixing electronics/ computers/radar or what have you. the troops under that officer. and thats the way it is suposed to be and it works. so lets look at the enlisted pay in this instance a E-4 that has been in for 3 years makes $1,923 base pay a month.
the government adds in cost of training food exc exc exc when they put there pay into the math just to make it look better but in the end they make there base pay.
yes most GS employees are former military and have that same training but its not included in the math as its considered a skill they already have prior to employment.
im not trying to bash anyone or anythng just the facts
heres how it stacks up
GS-3 in step 3 makes $23,296 base pay unknown if this is yearly or not see pay chart
O-3 with 3 years in makes $4,479 base pay a month (2010 pay chart)
so aprox $12.44 a hour based on a 30 day month with a 12 hour shift
E-3 with 3 years in makes $1,923 base pay a month (2010 pay chart)
so aprox $5.34 a hour based on a 30 day month and 12 hour shift
now cut the military hourly pay in half as they are considered to be on 24 hour duty status at all times
i cannot show the hourly chart for GS as the pay chart i have looked at does not specify if it is yearly or monthly
so how do you figgure that our troops need our pay frozen officers make a decient wage for there education and responsabilities but nothing compaired to thete civilian counterparts. a GS makes the cash they are worth usualy, some make more than they deserve thats life a lot make less than they deserve. enlisted are basicly in the poverty level most live paycheck to paycheck.
when any federal employee is working they buy goods and services while off duty which HELPS the economy.
now state your opinions on overpaid military personel.
(http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html for GS pay scale)
(http://www.navycs.com/2010-military-pay-chart.html for 2010 military pay scale)
5:21 am on December 23rd, 2010 27
Larry T #26, Very good comment. Perhaps it will open some eyes of the civilians here.
But I doubt it.
I know my retirement check is nothing to brag about.
5:41 am on December 23rd, 2010 28
There are a lot of govt. employees who can go without the measley COLA that was going to be offered this year. It's more of a PR gesture than anything. It doesn't stop promotions, bonuses (invariably for the higher ups), or step increases which add up to a lot more than a 1.4% raise. But there are also a lot of people lower on the GS scale who are struggling. At the VA I work at, a housekeeper makes more than a nurses aide, who is directly involved with patient care. For myself, I have no problem not getting an annual raise this year. But there are some who could really use it. Anyone who supports not giving active duty personnel a raise needs to be immediately inducted into whatever branch needs them the most at the time. Sorry if this idea catches on and gets somebody drafted here.
During a war is no time to talk about not giving them a raise. Yeah, they are employed by the federal government, but they are of a different classification.
1:20 am on April 10th, 2011 29
To those who say "cut military pay", I would like to let you know that on a 1st Class pay it is not roses when it comes to paying our bills on time. Not to mention the stressers it causes when we move cross country 3 times in 10 years. We are very close to middle class, but it is taking years each time to recover from our moves, etc. We have 2 kids and the way the economy is going, things are getting more expensive. To keep us at a lower pay with things higher priced will land us in the poor house in the next 5-10 years. How dare you assume cutting our pay is right while Congress & the President get fat bank accounts. My husband deploys to defend your right to sit here and banter about cutting our pay. Where is that right? Perhaps we should look closer at other things. We have no money and yet we are trying to run a war in a foreign country. I say cut the war. Bring my family & friends home. That would save money. Did you know we ship equipment overseas and realize we have no money to bring it back home so we destroy it? Ummm-waste of money there. Considering we have to resupply. There are alternatives to hurting the military & putting our military in a bad position. How about impeaching our President who doubled our debt in his first 6 months in office? How about not spending millions on decorating the White House on holidays? How about Ms. Obama wearing less expensive clothes? You are going to cut my pay, but allow her to wear designer clothes? You are going to land more people in the poor house to fund their cushy retirement? You are going to destroy the economy, but the White House will glow in millions-billions of dollars worth of decorations?
4:06 am on April 10th, 2011 30
"How about impeaching our President who doubled our debt in his first 6 months in office?"
How could the Congress impeach him for that? Ultimately, the President is incapable of raising the debt. Congress controls the purse, remember?
Since when is the First lady's wardrobe a line item on the budget? I thought that was paid for out of personal expenses. Getting catty? Is this a woman thing?
5:06 am on April 10th, 2011 31
Christine wrote:
Obama did not double our debt. Of the $14 trillion in debt, about $4 is from Democratic administrations and $10 trillion from Republicans (Reagan, Bush41 and especially Bush43, who turned budget surpluses into trillions of dollars in debt beyond the cost of the two wars).