By So why don’t we next make a special victim group status for dumb people because shouldn’t they have equal rights to join the military like everyone else? 
Nearly one-fourth of the students who try to join the U.S. Army fail its entrance exam, painting a grim picture of an education system that produces graduates who can’t answer basic math, science and reading questions, according to a new study released Tuesday.The report by The Education Trust bolsters a growing worry among military and education leaders that the pool of young people qualified for military service will grow too small.
“Too many of our high school students are not graduating ready to begin college or a career — and many are not eligible to serve in our armed forces,” U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan told the AP. “I am deeply troubled by the national security burden created by America’s underperforming education system.” [Associated Press]
What is so surprising by this?
Educators expressed dismay that so many high school graduates are unable to pass a test of basic skills.
“It’s surprising and shocking that we are still having students who are walking across the stage who really don’t deserve to be and haven’t earned that right,” said Tim Callahan with the Professional Association of Georgia Educators, a group that represents more than 80,000 educators.
I’m not surprised. This is what happens when students are passed through high school because we don’t want to hurt their self esteem by failing them.
1:19 pm on December 22nd, 2010 1
But, but, everyone got an "A"!
1:42 pm on December 22nd, 2010 2
There does seem to be a relationship between states with liberal politics and FAIL in this chart.
I think all students are special…
…'specially when they are serving me fries with that.
2:24 pm on December 22nd, 2010 3
Parents are still primarily responsible for their kids' education. Schools are just where the labor and maintenance of education is outsourced. Parents must do the quality control.
If parents are shocked to learn their kids can't read or do basic math only when they are near finished high school, something is wrong. But when no one else in the family has a high school education, it may explain part of it.
3:23 pm on December 22nd, 2010 4
BUT THEY'RE ALL SUCH UNIQUE LITTLE SNOWFLAKES, HOW COULD THE MEAN EXAM BE FAILING THEM!
3:24 pm on December 22nd, 2010 5
Jesus how do you "fail" the ASVAB? Even the lowest score's still let you be a cook or infantryman. Seriously this isn't like some college entrance exam, its designed at an 8th grade level.
3:33 pm on December 22nd, 2010 6
ChickenHead,
Are you kidding? Not only are the darkest states "conservative" (and there are hundreds of other polls attesting to that very fact), but this clearly shows an all-out failure of the education system.
4:14 pm on December 22nd, 2010 7
JoeC is correct. You can lead a horse to water etc.
The problem is with attitudes. Kids are too busy gettin' their thug on to waste time getting an education. And some parents just don't give a damn.
I have been around parents who were proud of their little boy who was being a bad-ass at the daycare or in elementary school. "That's my boy!"
G.W. Bush was right about the soft-bigotry of low expectations.
4:40 pm on December 22nd, 2010 8
I think its funny
Where's Tom?
4:53 pm on December 22nd, 2010 9
The Expat 6, he said a relationship. He didn't say whether it was a positive or a negative relationship.
It looks like Mississippi had the worst failure rate. Then Louisiana and New Mexico. Then Arkansas, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, and New Jersey.
But the inset tells the tale: 39% of blacks fail nationally and 29% of hispanics. So what should schools do? They can't undo centuries of exploitive policies by the Spanish empire, nor centuries of slavery and discrimination throughout the hemisphere.
Maybe they could design instructional programs and textbooks specifically for disadvantaged groups.
Kids who start kindergarten and first grade coming from homes where there are no books, ten-year-olds who can't read as well as middle-class six-year-olds, teenagers who don't have the math skills of middle-class pre-teens, may need different books and different teaching techniques.
5:45 pm on December 22nd, 2010 10
Glans,
I had to read your comment a few times to figure out if you were being sarcastic or serious (I assume it's the latter). Schools shouldn't do anything different than what they're doing now, i.e. presenting the material to be learned. Whether it is learned is totally up to the student and his/her parents.
Most kids today are more worried about their iPhones, how many friends they have on facebook, or who did break into 50 cent's crib and drink his wine than they are about geometry or physics.
In my daughter's school, there isn't ONE black kid that's on the honor roll, nor is there even one that's getting half-way decent grades. Can't blame DODDS (or centuries of slavery and discrimination)for that, the same material is presented to everyone, equally. Studying and getting good grades just doesn't fit in with the homeboy, ghetto thug image and if the parents aren't getting actively involved, kicking some butt and laying down the law (trust me, it works
), then the kid will be quite happy striving for mediocrity, or worse, a job with AAFES car sales after graduation.
I do blame the system for lowering the standards which allows those who should clearly fail, to pass.
5:50 pm on December 22nd, 2010 11
I do no think this says anything about America that was not already known. There is a disparity in educational achievement by race,economic background, region,and so forth. There are all sorts of indicators for educational aptitude race not being the only one or the most indicative.
Also, recruiters try to get any and everybody to take that test. Even people they know can't pass it. All these stats tell me is the ASVAB is working in making sure the people that enter the the military have basic educational competencies.
8:08 pm on December 22nd, 2010 12
Nomad 10 and Maj. America 11, we have a failure rate of 39% for blacks and 29% for hispanics. Is that a problem that schools should work on? No? To heck with the young people who fail. Let their economic, social, and military potential go untapped.
Or try to work with them? Start with the level they've acutally attained, not what we wish they had attained. Give them textbooks they can read. Encourage them to go from where they are to where they need to be.
Dump them or develop them, which will it be?
10:03 pm on December 22nd, 2010 13
Let me be the thinker outside the box and just say, who cares. When i was in highschool no-one really cared to take an Army entrance exam. A few did, and they did well on it…ppl like myself just half-assed the test commenting on how we would never join the military.
Point is, did anyone ask these kids if they even cared or tried. They could just have other plans besides the military and put fourth no effort at all. If anything they should call this "journalism failure" for once again providing us with some, if not just a few of the facts. Then again, it really falls on whomever the number cruncher was that compiled the numbers IMHO….
11:25 pm on December 22nd, 2010 14
Glans wrote:
"Or try to work with them? Start with the level they’ve acutally attained, not what we wish they had attained. Give them textbooks they can read. Encourage them to go from where they are to where they need to be."
We're already doing that. As an earlier commenter noted, it is virtually impossible to retain a student in the same grade and repeated retentions would only yield a future frustrated dropout. Most elementary school language arts programs included a guided reading component. Children read a text at instructional level with a teacher. Likewise, math instruction usually includes small group workshop time in which children practice both the standards currently being taught and review ones previously taught if not yet mastered.
"But the inset tells the tale: 39% of blacks fail nationally and 29% of hispanics. So what should schools do? They can’t undo centuries of exploitive policies by the Spanish empire, nor centuries of slavery and discrimination throughout the hemisphere.
Maybe they could design instructional programs and textbooks specifically for disadvantaged groups. "
Hispanic children who appear to have mostly Spanish ancestry do not perform any better than children with mostly indigenous ancestry. It's not a legacy of colonialism and slavery but low expectations and the inability of poverty schools to attract and retain outstanding teachers that mostly explains the achievement gap, which Harvard education researcher Ronald Ferguson has shown can be closed with appropriate early intervention.
"Kids who start kindergarten and first grade coming from homes where there are no books, ten-year-olds who can’t read as well as middle-class six-year-olds, teenagers who don’t have the math skills of middle-class pre-teens, may need different books and different teaching techniques.'
Even small towns have Head Start or other preschool programs precisely for that reason – to close the language and early learning gap for children in poor and non-English speaking homes. Many of these children will need an extra boost throughout their school careers because their parents either can't or won't help them. Some of the Mexican, Salvadoran, and Honduran-born parents of my students have only 3 or 4 years of formal education. Some of the American parents may have dropped out of school themselves and not see education as important. Most important is not academic support at home but competent parenting 101. Children who get a hug from their mom or dad before walking out the door in clean clothes and neatly combed hair come to school ready to learn.
12:13 am on December 23rd, 2010 15
Many (not all) young adults go into the military because they are not smart enough for college.
12:48 am on December 23rd, 2010 16
The gays here in El Paso have been commenting on this subject for a couple days now, they believe that gays are much smarter and physically fit and with the repeal of DADT more will be attracted to the military and we shouldn't be too concerned.
12:59 am on December 23rd, 2010 17
I think what we are seeing is the result of the government mandated tests that the kids are taking. Schools are spending most of their time teaching to these tests, if you make the ASVAB a mandated government test, then the kids will study for it and pass it.
1:03 am on December 23rd, 2010 18
Duke-you still haven't told me how you earned your title.
1:11 am on December 23rd, 2010 19
Askew #13: If the kids who took the ASVAB had no plans to join the military, why were they taking the test? I would assume that anyone taking the ASVAB was somewhat interested in what the military had to offer and would be putting more than a little effort into it. Why did you just half-ass the test knowing you would never join? Are they offering it in the schools now? I had to travel 150 miles to take it.
Low test scores and ill prepared students, soldiers, etc. is not a race issue. It's a socioeconomic issue. Generally speaking, groups of all kinds tend to produce new members of that group that will perpetuate the continued existence of that class level. Groups of all classes, black, white, hispanic, asian, etc. will produce members that will, in turn, take their place within that socioeconomic group. You can find high to low level classes in all race groups in this country, but the ones receiving the press seem to be those of color.
As JoeC and Nomad said above, it starts at home. The teachers teach, but the parents are the ones that need to see that their kids are doing their homework. There are good schools and bad schools. I tend to think the bad ones are where the parents aren't doing their jobs at home and aren't involved in the school. Which in turn will produce another generation of people with the same attitudes, educational level, values, morals, pay grades, and low ASVAB scores.
1:26 am on December 23rd, 2010 20
Duke #18: Absolutely right. My daughter and son-in-law were both teaching in separate elementary schools in North Carlolina. Both of them were told by their principals: If it's not on the test, you don't teach it. Kind of frustrating for someone who wants to teach. Only turns out kids who can (hopefully) pass that test, not a kid that can take knowledge and apply it to other learning situations.
1:27 am on December 23rd, 2010 21
Overall the accountability of NCLB-mandated tests has improved the consistency and quality of instruction, but the tests do have flaws. Science and social studies questions are weighted heavily towards factual recall. Both math and reading tests, which take an hour each for a bright elementary student to complete and longer for slower children, are largely endurance tests. If a question about fractions or main idea appears early in the test, say question #12 or 16, nearly all kids will get it right. If the same question appears near the end of the test, many kids will get it wrong, especially if the correct answer is C or D. Except for tests required for high school promotion or graduation, the kids who take the test are not held accountable for the results – we teachers are. When there is a gap between the those who perform the task and those who are held accountable, one can expect less than 100% success. NCLB originally mandated a 100% passing rate by 2013, but that unrealistic goal has been postponed. Current required passing rates of 81-83% will hold for a couple more years.
Several months ago, Askthekorean posted about an elite charter school with a challenging curriculum that included Latin and other classical subjects. An internet search led me to an online forum where parents of prospective students posted questions. Guess what the most commonly asked question was? Is there too much homework? And the second most commonly asked question? Is the curriculum too hard? Considering that these parents are a self-selected gourp who are ambitious for their children's education, their concerns suggest that in our culture, people want academic success but don't think they should work too hard for it.
1:34 am on December 23rd, 2010 22
gourp = group
5:56 am on December 23rd, 2010 23
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Lewis Smith. Lewis Smith said: "Quarter of US Students Cannot Pass Military Entrance Exam, Are Schools to Blame?" and related posts http://ht.ly/1azUTc [...]
7:29 am on December 23rd, 2010 24
Hawaii had the highest failure rate at 38%. I wonder what's up with that.
Must be all those furlough Fridays.
Sonagi, thanks as usual, for your input into the school system. I don't always agree with all of your conclusions (maybe just 95%), but it's obvious your opinions come from a strong factual foundation and a lot of thought and consideration.
7:47 am on December 23rd, 2010 25
When I lived in Compton, I attended two elementary schools. In the first we had rundown facilities, ancient textbooks, and a lack of classroom learning aids and materials. If people were doing poorly there, it had little to do with being treated like precious little snowflakes who couldn't fail.
The second school I attended had far better facilities — a night and day difference — and I stayed in their magnet program until it was discovered my parents had been creative about our address so I could attend. My final elementary school experience was in Orange County, where the non-magnet schools facilities were modern and functioning, the textbooks were crisp and new, the rooms were full of learning aids including computers and audiovisual equipment the kids could use directly, and there were teaching assistants (!) to help the teachers. My guess is that if any of those three elementary schools had kids being treated like snowflakes, it was the latter, not the decrepit and understaffed one.
On a trip back to visit friends at the high school I would have attended, had my parents not gone heavily into debt to escape the occasional drive-by, I looked around the facilities and saw a similar gap in facilities and materials quality and availability. But I'll tell you what, the kids who did well at my there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I would-have-been alma mater were a determined bunch who were equipped (maybe self-equipped) to take on whatever they found in college (if they went). I ran into some people from that high school at UCI and they were a bit ill-prepared but worked hard to overcome that fact.
I really don't like blaming the kids or even blaming the teachers and administrators when the disparity of facilities and materials is so stacked against them, at least back then. Maybe things have changed dramatically and it's all an equal playing field now, but I somehow doubt it (but would love to be proven wrong).
8:17 am on December 23rd, 2010 26
#24
"Hawaii had the highest failure rate at 38%. I wonder what’s up with that."
I saw that and when I looked up the demographics for Hawaii it appears a lot of the racial stereotyping doesn't work out.
Someone said, "ppl like myself just half-assed the test commenting on how we would never join the military."
Yeah, I'm sure that's what most tell their friends after they are told they flunked the test.
BTW. If anyone wants to try ASVAB practice tests, they can do so on military.com
8:25 am on December 23rd, 2010 27
JoeC wrote:
I'd like to know who in Hawaii is taking the exam. If a disproportionate number of Pacific Islander migrants are taking it, that could explain part of it. Sadly, many of them come from islands where education is subpar, and they often end up in neighborhoods with schools that aren't much of an improvement.
But thank God for furlough Fridays so they can escape those black holes of learning once a week!
8:41 am on December 23rd, 2010 28
Facilities in poverty schools are inadequate, but is that the primary reason for low achievement? I observed classes in the second most prestigious high school in Qingdao, China, a city of 2 million. Nearly every graduate of this high school went on to tertiary education, some to universities in Beijing or Shanghai. The classrooms were spartan and minimally heated. The students all kept their coats on the winter day of my visit. A student-teacher ratio of 50:1 is the norm. The dorm kids whose families lived in the countryside slept 8 to a room and took lukewarm showers once a week.
The humble Catholic elementary school I attended had no gym, no cafeteria, no art or music teacher, and a library the size of a Korean officetel. In 5th grade, we all giggled when we read in our science textbook, "Someday man might go to the moon." Despite the modest facilities and outdated textbooks, about half my class of 25 students placed into advanced math and English classes when we transferred to the local public middle school in the 7th grade.
You yourself noted that your parents went into debt to buy a home in a relatively safe area. Probably many other parents in your modest middle-class community were like your parents, and school conditions reflected community personal and financial investments.
Disparity in facilities is but one disparity among many.
8:53 am on December 23rd, 2010 29
JoeC wrote:
Dammit, Joe! Now you made me accidentally join the military. And just when all the faggots are joining up and will be looking at my arse!
BTW, got 100%, but I'm used to standardized tests. Taught GRE and GMAT math for years. I can see where the heavy focus on reading and math would trip up kids whose schools skate through this.
Instilling math basics and a love of reading will get your kids far no matter what.
8:58 am on December 23rd, 2010 30
#27
"I’d like to know who in Hawaii is taking the exam."
There was obviously some selection bias in this survey and report. Many people will take the ASVAB because they are desperate for a job. Those who haven't finished high school will take it anyway and hope for a waiver. We can't say this percentage that fail are representative of any national or local population.
8:59 am on December 23rd, 2010 31
Sonagi wrote:
Like my parents how? Like my parents in that they valued education so fled Compton for Orange County? No.
Like my parents in that they valued education so the schools were better? Possibly, except that I got the feeling that most of the kids there were nowhere near where my parents were in terms of educational zeal. They got by, most of them, but getting by in OC was miles ahead of getting by in Compton/LBC.
Sounds like we attended the same school:
9:01 am on December 23rd, 2010 32
JoeC wrote:
Undoubtedly. But the schools in Hawaii — despite being filled with Asian students — yield a large crop of poorly performing graduates.
9:19 am on December 23rd, 2010 33
Are schools in Hawaii filled with Asian students or American students of Asian ancestry? I recall reading somewhere that higher achievement among Asian-Americans disappears by the third generation.
11:12 am on December 23rd, 2010 34
Sonagi wrote:
I should have made that clearer: By Asians, I meant American students of Asian ancestry. A bit over half the population is wholly or partially of Asian descent. About 18% of the state is foreign-born, and three-fourths of them are from Asia.
I've written about that phenomenon (which bolsters the nurture side of the educational achievement issue over the nature side) several times, but I can't find a link online. The high-achieving phenomenon, while it exists, is not for all Asian groups, which also undermines the notion of the model minority.
11:56 am on December 23rd, 2010 35
15: "Hispanic children who appear to have mostly Spanish ancestry do not perform any better than children with mostly indigenous ancestry. It’s not a legacy of colonialism and slavery but low expectations and the inability of poverty schools to attract and retain outstanding teachers that mostly explains the achievement gap, which Harvard education researcher Ronald Ferguson has shown can be closed with appropriate early intervention."
I have a friend who would at least partially agree with you on this. He's a former priest who worked in Hispanic neighborhoods in LA and is now an elementary school principal in a majority Hispanic school. He speaks very good Spanish and is married to a Guatemalan lady. He told me some Hispanic cultures (particularly Mexico) hold it to be in real bad form to outdo your father. So often times, the kids will do just enough to get by in school, eventually land a menial job comparable to the father's and intentionally forget everything they learned in school. Now its certainly not all cultures. As examples, Cubans and Dominicans tend to push their kids to excel. Also, you'll find fathers who will break tradition and encourage their kids to do their best. But if they follow the cultural norm, they tend to fall into a serious rut.
12:08 pm on December 23rd, 2010 36
Sonagi 15, I'm glad to hear of the good work being done at your school. How's it working out for disadvantaged kids? Making good progress, I hope. Maybe when other school systems adopt your best practices, those high failure rates will come down.
12:15 pm on December 23rd, 2010 37
Measurable IQ is thought to be about 70/30 nature/nuture. 30% environment is significant enough to make it virtually impossible to prove any particular ethnic group has higher intelligence than another. Wiki (I know, I know) cites an average IQ for Northeast Asians in the 105-107 range while the US is a little under 100. I find the stats credible, and it's not because of racial differences but because of environmental differences, diet and substance abuse being primary factors.
IQ is somewhat overrated. It is not the primary determinant of a stable and productive adult life. Personal and interpersonal skills are. Recall the Tennessee kindergarten teacher study that found a lifetime earnings difference of $300,000 between the students in the classroom of an outstanding kinder teacher and a mediocre one. Those kids didn't get a huge IQ boost in one year. They developed attitudes and behaviors that helped them become successful adults.
12:29 pm on December 23rd, 2010 38
#37
"I find the stats credible, and it’s not because of racial differences but because of environmental differences, diet and substance abuse being primary factors."
It's a good thing I didn't get my fill of lead paint chips when I was a kid.
12:42 pm on December 23rd, 2010 39
Sonagi wrote:
I agree with everything you wrote, but I wanted to point out something interesting I've been reading about new research discussing how the body having to fight off infectious diseases at early stages of childhood development sucking out the resources for normal development, with cognitive development being particularly vulnerable to the loss. In such cases, this is a nature-nurture problem that might show up heavily as "nature," even though it's not genetic.
12:51 pm on December 23rd, 2010 40
I'm not going to initiate a discussion on genotypes versus phenotypes, but I believe the 70/30 comes from a comparison of genes with measured IQ. A low IQ relative to genes would appear as a difference in nurture not nature.
1:03 pm on December 23rd, 2010 41
I'm not disagreeing with you or what you're recalling (which is similar to what I recall from demography/population studies courses). I'm only saying that there are biological mechanisms being discovered that are "nurture" but which have been placed on the "nature" side of the ledger. Irrespective of where that puts the nature-vs-nurture argument, it presents a promising means of raising the level of achievement by focusing (as we should be doing anyway) on controlling infectious diseases among the poor.
1:13 pm on December 23rd, 2010 42
Among the poor in the US, infectious diseases is probably a less significant factor than the mother's overall health and her diet before and during pregnancy and while breastfeeding. There is increasing evidence that the father's health and diet influence the child's genes, too, even if the father has little post-natal contact. By health, I mean weight, blood pressure, blood sugar, and other markers of general health.
2:27 pm on December 23rd, 2010 43
You may be right, Sonagi, that those are as important or more so, though, if this new line of research is as promising as some hope, we really don't know which is more significant (there are a lot of low-grade infections our bodies must deal with). It's better to keep focusing on all these issues — mother's health, prenatal and postnatal breastfeeding, childhood nutrition, childhood infection, etc. — which we should be doing anyway.
I want to also point out that when I wrote comment #41, my mental focus was also on Africa, where much of the research was conducted.
I think it's important to point these things out from time to time because, at heart, I think a lot of people assume that the poor are the poor because of "bad genes and bad luck" and therefore can be comfortably written off. Though many policymakers won't quite come out and say that, it does seem to be informing the politics they proffer, especially when it comes to things like S-CHIP, Head Start, education in general, and other issues that involve investing in our youth's education and health.
2:35 pm on December 23rd, 2010 44
If it's anything like the one we have in Canada, they give you the results on one sheet of paper (I took a series of 6 tests over a period of 2 hours or so) and it's possible to fail. Some of the tests were testing for IQ, others were testing general knowledge, anything from mechanics to simple physics and common sense. On the result sheet, they drew a red line across the page. You qualified for was over the line and you didn't for what was under (or was it the other way around). Mine was way at the bottom (or the top), but with a note that stated I couldn't be a pilot because of my eyesight (I've since had corrective laser eye surgery, 25/20 vision now). Scored a 99, which meant I was in the top percentile. The proctor actually apologized. Told me I had aced the tests, but they couldn't give a more accurate score. I basically scored off the charts.
4:00 pm on December 23rd, 2010 45
kushibo 43 focuses on the key issue: prenatal and postnatal breastfeeding.
4:08 pm on December 23rd, 2010 46
Whoops. Prenatal and postnatal care, breastfeeding…
People complain I'm too wordy but when I try to shorten my sentences I lop off things a bit sloppily.
4:09 pm on December 23rd, 2010 47
Seems these same kids think Jebus rode a dinosaur. I have proof: <A>DINO JESUS
4:18 pm on December 23rd, 2010 48
These statistics only speak to those who elected to take the entrance exam, not all US students. In my school district, all students were required to complete the ASVAB during their sophmore or junior year. Many simply filled in the circles, as Askew suggested, having no intention of entering military service.
4:48 pm on December 23rd, 2010 49
#48 You know, I totally forgot about that stuff, and you're right. You have a very relevant point!
4:57 pm on December 23rd, 2010 50
Sonagi, you've given a lot of thought and hard work to education. You seem to be doing the right things. So how's it working in practice? If minority kids come to your school two years behind grade level, are they up to speed when they finish?
5:07 pm on December 23rd, 2010 51
#50 They get "A"s too! Everyone is a valedictorian! Everyone is special! Everyone gets a prize. Thanks for playing.
8:19 pm on December 23rd, 2010 52
I like the post about high school students "half-assing" the ASVAB and failing. Is that an excuse? What is that suppose to mean; someone only put-forth 50% and they still failed? Really, are children that stupid?
We want the "smarter Army" back – where did they go? Has anyone seen the "smarter Army"?
Then there is the post saying many join the army because they're too stupid to attend college. What is that suppose to mean? I knew many stupid people in college. My ex-wife who I met in college is as dumb as a box of rocks and she's a nurse working in a hospital. Then there are the stupid people who attend college and then join the Army. Where do they fit in?
Anyway, I look at some of the school kids working as baggers at the commissary and believe they have already found their destiny.
10:16 pm on December 23rd, 2010 53
In regards to my post, #13, and to # 20 dragonfly, yes they made us within my school disctrict "take" the test. Trust me it was either that or class, and as far as i was concerned it was my senior year, and i was out of class to take a silly ass test…I scored a 72 and didnt even try. The test back then (2003) was composed of simple problem solving, that as far as i can understand, was meant to judge a persons strength in one area or another.
This probably isnt the situation in other school districts though, but you never know. To be honest if anybody would really want to know if there is a problem why not ask the students if they even cared to try to take the test. When i mentioned "journalism failure" it takes into account that whomever wrote that original article, probably didnt take the time to actually see what was going on in the school. As an example, just like CNN investigates or something.
But i would love to see who would spend their time traveling across the country asking students if they really TRIED to take the test. Pretty much everyone on here threw around "numbers" as if they would show something that the poster above or below hasnt seen. They dont when it comes to the children. And to post # 52 LENNY, yes kids are that stupid…last time i checked…kids are stupid. They do dumb things. I know half of the posters on this site are ex-military, and as such, im sure you were quick to prejudge that "wet behind the ears" E1-E3 that was straight out of basic, and right out of HIGHSCHOOL.
And i will say one thing. Some kids to retake the test and score higher…either because they studied, or because they actually tried..
12:03 am on December 24th, 2010 54
@Glans:
It is difficult to answer your question fully because as an ESOL teacher, I work with Hispanics only. I can tell you that most of our Hispanic students make rapid progress. About half the kids in our preschool program learn enough English and preliteracy skills to be kinder-ready and not need ESOL instruction. About 1/3 of kinders transition out of ESOL by the end of the year, and by 3rd grade, only about 10% of the kids who started with us in preK are still below grade level. These kids may be among the 14% of the US student population that are slow learners with IQs between 70 and 85, too high for MR (mentally retarded) and too low for LD (learning disabled). These kids can and do learn, but they need a lot of exposure and repetition. By the time they master a skill, the rest of the class has moved on to the next standard.
Our school is a Title I school with 70% free and reduced lunch and a population that is about 25% African-American and 20% Hispanic. We have been meeting or exceeding NCLB passing rates for years, and that includes our two minority groups as required by NCLB.
1:09 am on December 24th, 2010 55
ExPat #6 – But, several of those "dark states" are NOT conservative (look at California and New York for just two, then the rest of New England), and you will see that the majority of the population is in those states.
The ASVAB is one of the simplest and easy tests a high school kid ever has to take., and there is no "fail" on it. I met folks in the military (actually I didn't meet them, but I saw their records), who only got TWO ANSWERS correct on the ASVAB and were still allowed in the Army as cooks. It takes a lot more correct answers to be Infantry.
2:00 am on December 24th, 2010 56
I should have been more clear.
It isn't conservative or liberal… Republican or Democrat… as those terms are increasingly meaningless.
It is more about places where the local culture is one of self-sufficiency or one of dependence and big mama government.
…the Left Coast, New York, the Deep South where GodGunGays "conservatives" love their monthly gubment checks… all FAIL.
How about this. Take a look at this map of which states voted for Obama and compare it to states with dumb parents raising dumb kids… ouch.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/1…
2:07 am on December 24th, 2010 57
I believe in investing in children not just because it's compassionate but also because a little extra $ spent now can save $$$ down the road provided it is money spent wisely. As a teacher at a school whose parents are a mix of working poor, nonworking poor, and lower middle-class, it seems that people become poor for many reasons including layoffs, health problems, and bad choices. We cannot "write off" the poor. Assistance, however, must be strategic and limited, and our present mishmash of local, state, and federal programs is neither.
3:01 am on December 24th, 2010 58
Addressing the original topic, state differences in ASVAB scores should not be used as an indicator of overall educational achievement because ASVAB test takers are a selected group that is not necessarily representative. One commenter noted that he was forced to take it in high school. The states with the lowest failure rates are states with traditional notions of patriotism, states where teens and young adults from solid working and lower-middle class families see the military as a place to mature and earn money for college. Some of my cousins joined the military right after high school for that purpose. Their parents could have put them through college, but they wanted to pay their own way.
One of the few worthwhile projects funded by the DoE is the Common Core Curriculum, a set of standards that have been voluntarily adopted by more than 2 dozen states. A common national curriculum and a common set of achievement tests will improve equality in education. Our at-risk students tend to be transient, switching schools and districts frequently, sometimes in different states. These kids have holes in their education because of our lack of a unified national curriculum. We don't need to be on the same page on the same day across the country, but our pacing guides should align at least quarterly. For example, all second grade students across the country should be introduced to rounding during the second quarter. Standardizing to the quarter would plug most holes and ensure that transient students get complete and coherent instruction. Common Core test results will more clearly show which districts and states are successfully educating their students.
3:12 am on December 24th, 2010 59
Sonagi…
You are smart and aware of the problems around you. You have great ideas about education and the solutions to the problems. You are not a "teacher" like so many.
You are a Teacher.
I like you these days.
Merry Christmas.
5:24 am on December 24th, 2010 60
Some notes on the how the ASVAB works. First is that you can't get a 100 on the real ASVAB, it only goes to 99, that practice one is just to give you an idea but isn't a real one. Second is that your ASVAB score is mostly irrelevant once you go past 51 as nearly all occupations (Army wise) don't require higher then that. What is more important are your composite scores which reflect different weights given to different parts of the test. Each service breaks down the ASVAB results using their own methods to yield different composite scores. For the Army you have
* Clerical (CL) – Determined from Verbal Expression (VE), Arithmetic Reasoning (AR), and Mathematics Knowledge (MK).
* Combat (CO) – Determined from Verbal Expression (VE), Auto & Shop (AS) and Mechanical Comprehension (MC).
* Electronics (EL) – Determined from General Science (GS), Arithmetic Reasoning (AR), Mathematics Knowledge (MK) and Electronic Information (EI).
* Field Artillery (FA) – Determined from Arithmetic Reasoning (AR) Mathematics Knowledge (MK) and Mechanical Comprehension (MC).
* General Maintenance (GM) – Determined from General Science (GS), Auto & Shop (AS), Mathematics Knowledge (MK) and Electronics Information (EI).
* General Technical (GT) – Determined from Verbal Expression (VE) and Arithmetic Reasoning (AR).
* Mechanical Maintenance (MM) – Determined from Auto & Shop (AS), Mechanical Comprehension (MC) and Electronic Information (EI).
* Operators and Food (OF) – Determined from Verbal Expression (VE), Auto & Shop (AS) and Mechanical Comprehension (MC).
* Surveillance and Communications (SC) – Determined from Verbal Expression (VE), Arithmetic Reasoning (AR), Auto & Shop (AS) and Mechanical Comprehension (MC).
* Skilled Technical (ST) – Determined from General Science (GS), Verbal Expression (VE), Mechanical Comprehension (MC) and Mathematics Knowledge (MK).
Those scores are what determine which MOS's you qualify for, honestly a GT of 90 or higher puts you in just about any field in the Army.
The ASVAB is not an intelligence test, its a skills test to determine which area's of aptitude a prospective service member is best at. You can't *fail* it, instead you simply have a smaller selection of MOS's you qualify for. Ontop of this in many states the schools require that students in the 11th or 12th grade take the ASVAB, its not a graduation requirement and the score doesn't matter (immediately) so many students blow it off. They can always retake it later after graduating.
8:40 am on December 24th, 2010 61
Sonagi 54, that sounds good. I hope other schools and school districts are studying you. Merry Christmas!
9:30 am on December 24th, 2010 62
We are not unique, Glans. Most schools are doing what we are doing. It is generally poor rural and urban districts that struggle in part because they have so many high needs children and in part because they cannot attract or retain competent teachers. With urban schools, it's not the salary but the stressful working conditions and the unsafe location. With rural schools, it is low salaries and social and cultural isolation. A happy Yule to all!
7:23 pm on December 24th, 2010 63
Here's an interesting comparison. On Program for International Student Assessment (the PISA), a program which tests 15-year-old students, the US was twelfth in literacy. Korea was first! But if you break out United States, Asian students, they're first. United States, white students are fourth. United States, Hispanic students and United States, black students are near the bottom.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh122410.shtml
So, if we want more American kids to qualify for good military occupational specialties, we're going to have to do something about all those underperforming black and hispanic kids.
7:08 am on December 25th, 2010 64
Those underperforming kids are concentrated in underperforming schools that aren't meeting AYP passing rates. It's not that our present strategies aren't effective with minority children, for black and Hispanic kids are succeeding in schools like ours. We don't need special programs, teaching methods, or materials for black and Hispanic children. We need to improve the schools where these children are concentrated.
9:04 am on December 25th, 2010 65
We still need cooks, chem and supply… There's nothing wrong with that.
10:23 am on December 25th, 2010 66
Sonagi 64 wisely says, "We need to improve the schools where these children are concentrated."
What's the needed improvement, and how do we achieve it?
Leon LaPorte 65, says, "We still need cooks, chem and supply…"
Yes, that's true. And those folks need to be able to earn a decent living, with good opportunities for their kids.
10:28 am on December 25th, 2010 67
With the current economic situation, expect education fund cuts from the city, state and federal budgets. Some people see it as a cost not an investment.
10:38 am on December 25th, 2010 68
#60,
Sounds a lot like the how it's conducted in Canada. If you get 99, it means you've scored better than 99% of people, in other words you're in the top percentile. Yes, a score over 90 will probably allow you to do most trades in the Canadian Armed Forces, too. One thing different: one of the tests had IQ test type questions when I took it. You'd know what I mean if you've ever taken one, even one of those free online IQ tests.
10:51 am on December 25th, 2010 69
"We need to improve the schools where these children are concentrated."
What's sad is that the only people who are made accountable are the teachers (sometimes so much so that it feels as if we are used as scapegoats). What about extra-institutional factors, namely the parents? That's the real reason problem children need better schools.
11:24 am on December 25th, 2010 70
@Glans:
Higher pay for teachers who demonstrate success and support so they can be successful. In general, merit pay is not a good idea and not needed, but teachers who take on the challenge of working in low performing schools need to be compensated for the higher stress. They also need support with small class sizes, teaching assistants and resource teachers. These things all cost money, something that low-performing schools tend not to have.
@Teadrinker:
I agree, but to a certain extent, we cannot control who has kids or raises them. I say to a certain extent because I believe public assistance, though well-intended, may facilitate people choosing to have children they cannot provide for. I'm not talking about one or two kids resulting from failed birth control. One unmarried mom in our school has six kids, the eldest 8 years old, all getting food stamps and Medicaid. A proudly prolific dad has twice as many, boasting in our school office of 12 offspring scattered in four states. Only 12% of public assistance recipients are long-termers, but it is the children of those long-termers who fill the classrooms of low-performing schools before they drop out to raise their own children on welfare or occupy a tax-funded jail cell.
2:25 pm on December 25th, 2010 71
ChickenHead wrote:
There. Fixed that for ya.
2:28 pm on December 25th, 2010 72
Sonagi wrote:
My grandmother had seven kids, in a time before welfare was a major motivation to do so. My point being that large, unmanageable families did not begin with The Great Society.
How would you go about correcting this? Though it might not pass Constitutional muster, I'm all for granting welfare payments to mothers with a certain number of children (say, at least one boy and at least one girl) only if they agree to accept Norplant or some other implanted, long-term birth control device as part of the package.
2:54 pm on December 25th, 2010 73
Kushibo…
You are right.
I was thinking of English "teachers" in Korea… which Sonagi was.
I would guess that, in US schools, there is plenty of blame for poor performance on things other than teachers…
…from too much worrying about diversity instead of math… to a local culture where ball-throwing is more important than test scores… encouraged by administrators who were former coaches and always seem to have a budget for new football equipment… to worrying more if Little Johnny drew a gun than if he can do his assignments… to serious pressure to pass and promote all the funkups up and out of the system… to, the biggest one, parents who just dont care… or, worse, who will loudly support the whims of their rancid little snotling no matter what it does.
Bad teachers exist… but it seems in most schools the good teachers recognize them and do their best to sink them throughout the year.
3:06 pm on December 25th, 2010 74
#66 Yes, that’s true. And those folks need to be able to earn a decent living, with good opportunities for their kids
They need to have they opportunity to earn a decent living, I agree (though that doesn't mean the military). But let's face it, if they are too dumb to earn a decent living their kids likely aren't going to do that well. Perhaps they shouldn't have kids at all. Darwinism…
#72 My point being that large, unmanageable families did not begin with The Great Society.
You're right about that. It mainly originated from high childhood mortality rates, the need for lots of help on the farm and lack of birth control. Though the current religious leaders like big, poor uneducated families as well. It gives them more power. The worse this life is, the promise of a better next life is all the desperate can hope for. Those with power at the top with their gold rings and private jets (not to mention many rules, codes and "morals" the great unwashed must follow) are the conduit to that promised good life after this one.
Then of course you have the wackos attempting to out bred the Muslims and other assorted dark skinned folks. They're never going to make it.
4:03 pm on December 25th, 2010 75
Sonagi 70, if I undeerstand you, what low-performing schools need is not available to them. So the answer to the question in GI Korea's headline is no, schools are not to blame.
12:33 am on December 26th, 2010 76
Was your grandmother unmarried? Did your grandfather sire a dozen kids with different women? Your grandmother lived before not only Johnson's Great Society but also before widespread use of safe and reliable birth control. Adults generally had the parenting skills to manage the large families that were the norm. My maternal grandparents had ten kids whom they fed mostly with bounty from their farm. My grandfather worked at the Oldsmobile plant during the day and did farm work in evenings and on the weekends. When my paternal grandmother died and my paternal grandfather abandoned the family, two spinster aunts took in the children and raised them.
I don't think we can or should require welfare recipients to use birth control. That veers uncomfortably towards Chinese-style family planning. We need to treat welfare benefits as a family payment, rather than payments to individual children when their mothers actually get the EBT cards. I would like to see EBT cards replaced by WIC-style coupons with a very limited list of eligible foods, no processed foods, only raw meat, produce, pasta, rice, cereal, and milk. If food is provided, at the very least, the parent should have to prepare it. Older kids can help out. In some states, TANF assistance is not increased if a recipient has a child more than ten months after joining. There could be a similar cap on food benefits. Let's try it and see what reproductive choices poor women make if they can't just walk into to the local social services office with birth certificate in hand to get an increase in their EBT limit.
2:50 am on December 26th, 2010 77
Sonagi and Kushibo,
You certainly SHOULD give up your reproductive rights in exchange for public money.
Productive people give up many rights when earning a living through their own labor… freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedom to be armed… etc… and, strangely, they give up the right of mass reproduction when they choose to live off their own labor instead of the labor of others… and they have no "right" to refuse laboring to support those who live off their labor.
There are many rights someone should give up when living off the forced labor of others. Ethically and morally, it is perfectly correct.
The benefits of this seem obvious.
5:02 am on December 26th, 2010 78
Chickenhead:
After reading this Boston Globe series on SSI disability payments for children, you'll feel thankful that you're not paying the taxes that fund this travesty:
http://www.boston.com/news/health/specials/New_We…
5:22 am on December 26th, 2010 79
Sonagi wrote:
No, this grandmother was married at the time. But after her husband left her, he sired more children (one, in fact, was the reason he left her). After they were officially divorced, he sired more children. His known children are ten or eleven, but suspected are at least fourteen. This is a time frame from the 1940s to the 1960s, but before The Great Society.
And though it was crude and not wholly reliable, since the 1930s they did have calendar- and basal temperature-based methods of limiting sex during periods where there was a greater likelihood of pregnancy. People in the same community as she usually did not have nearly as many children, so choosing not to breed like rabbits was apparently an option.
My point was simply that large, unmanageable families did not begin with The Great Society. I am sure some people may think it's okay to have yet another baby because the government will pay for it, but I'm not so confident that if such a payout system were to end that the large, unmanageable families, with children born largely out of wedlock, would end.
(And I think I should stop right here dissing that side of my family.)
5:39 am on December 26th, 2010 80
Unmanageable families will always be with us. The question is whether present public assistance increases the number of these families or increases the number of children in these families. I'm not suggesting ending public assistance. I'm suggesting putting further limits on it. Let's not give up and think there's nothing we can do or worse, let's not throw good money after bad by initiating new programs.
5:49 am on December 26th, 2010 81
ChickenHead wrote:
Yes, she was, and I suspect she was one of the good ones. South Korea needs more like her — there are too many of the "Shelton teacha sad" variety who just don't take their work seriously but want that paycheck — though I suspect that the number of good native English teachers is higher than the stereotype would suggest.
Methinks this, too, is a red herring designed to pin the problem on teachers (and administrators). I learned about diversity in school and also had plenty of time for math and science. Unless it is dramatically different from then, I don't see how this is an either/or situation. Also, the schools that perform well are also focusing on diversity curriculum as well, no? So this can't really be an explanation for poorly performing schools. The rest of your litany, however, is something I can agree with, though I see value in sports programs (and music programs and other arts).
5:55 am on December 26th, 2010 82
Sonagi (#80), I think we are on the same page. I only pointed out what I did (about The Great Society) because the rhetoric from a significant portion of the political spectrum thinks that ending welfare payments will magically solve all these problems; these people really do believe such problems began with and were caused by The Great Society, without which we would still live in a 1950s television show.
ChickenHead wrote:
But how can it be done Constitutionally? Unlike Sonagi, I think such drastic measures are acceptable, if they are Constitutional. Sure, that doesn't make me much of a "Liberal" (as a certain commenter likes to call me or anyone else who disagrees with him on some point), but I really do think it's workable and perhaps necessary at this point. And maybe it's not all that drastic; perhaps some of these women would like to stop the Baby Train from coming to town.
6:09 am on December 26th, 2010 83
Why include your interpretation of "rhetoric from a significant portion of the political spectrum" in a response to me? If I'm not arguing that, then it's a strawman. You know better.
6:18 am on December 26th, 2010 84
Thank you for the compliment, but actually Korea does not need teachers like me because Korean students do not need English the way my students do.
6:30 am on December 26th, 2010 85
Sonagi wrote:
Um… because you and I are not the only ones who are reading, following, or otherwise commenting here. I was addressing a larger view that relates to this: irrespective of whether you Sonagi believe so or not, there are many who feel that welfare programs à la The Great Society solely on their own created and perpetuate these problems. Since that view, I feel, goes to the heart of the disagreement between various parts of the political spectrum on the issue of welfare and welfare reform, I thought it was worth noting.
6:46 am on December 26th, 2010 86
Kushibo…
It can be done like many other things in dealing with the government… with a contract.
"We will give you this money if you agree to these terms."
7:42 am on December 26th, 2010 87
It doesn't help that hardcore right to lifers are vehemently opposed to ANY type of contraceptive assistance.
8:06 am on December 26th, 2010 88
Over the past two years, millions of Americans have lost their jobs and homes. It's likely many of them had very comfortable and stable family situations until that. They may have had little or no regard for those receiving public assistance until they now require it.
I suspect some of that domestic stress is already showing up in the schools. Students who were once very focused and determined to succeed may now seem more distracted.
8:24 am on December 26th, 2010 89
@JoeC:
In every school including ours are some emotionally disturbed, violent children who require near constant adult supervision. These children didn't start acting up after their father got laid off. These children come from homes with chronic instability and substance abuse. We do have children who experience stress from divorce or economic difficulties, but these children are still functional. They don't throw chairs across the room and bite the hands of any adult who tries to restrain them.
10:03 am on December 29th, 2010 90
We're still left with the painful fact that poor academic performance is more common among black and brown children. How did that come about? How is it to be corrected?
Did slavery and colonialism have anything to do with it? I ask that out of historical curiosity, not in an attempt to excuse bad behavior by people living today. Today's kids weren't slaves and weren't subjects of the colonial empires, even I know that.
1:21 pm on December 29th, 2010 91
It is impossible to answer your question. Even if, for argument's sake, one accepted the premise that the enslavement of African-Americans and Spanish colonization of Mexico and Central America partly explains the lower achievement of black and Hispanic students, the premise doesn't help us figure how to close the gap.
A colleague of mine attended a segregated black school until the 11th grade, when court-ordered desegregation forced area school districts to enroll black students living within district boundaries, and she then transferred to a local high school. According to her, there was talk in the community about how the black students would be disadvantaged because of their prior inferior educational environment. She said she didn't find schoolwork in the newly integrated high school all that challenging, and she graduated in the top ten of her class of about 250 students. "The building was old, our textbooks were old, but we learned anyway," she explained.
If you're not already familiar with Dr. Henry Louis Gates' work on the family backgrounds and property ownership of famous African-Americans who attained success in different fields, you should look into it. He found a high correlation between property ownership of a grandfather or great-grandfather and socioeconomic success of their descendants. He theorized that both the wealth and life skills of the property-owning ancestor benefitted his descendants. His theory would probably hold true for all ethnic groups.
You might also look into the research of Harvard Professor Ronald Ferguson, whose decades of work have focused on closing the achievement gap.
1:36 pm on December 29th, 2010 92
"Youth Culture, Parenting, Quality of Instruction, and the Achievement Gap"
isites.harvard.edu/…/Ron_Ferguson_Achievement_Gap_presentation.ppt
"Forty Acres and a Gap in Wealth"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/opinion/18gates…
1:45 pm on December 29th, 2010 93
Gates' two-page NYT piece is an easy read. If you don't want to click through Ferguson's Powerpoint presentation, skip down to slide 12, where he summarizes the data and offers a controversial hypothesis.
2:29 pm on December 29th, 2010 94
Sonagi 91, 92, 93 – If grand-parents' property is the key to academic success, as Gates seems to have shown, then yes indeed, colonialism and slavery are the causes of poor academic performance.
Gates' program is:
1. Make public housing tenants into homeowners.
2. Black leaders should rally for "responsible sexuality, birth within marriage, parents reading to their children, and students staying in school and doing homework."
3. Disadvantaged blacks should vote.
I couldn't look at the Ferguson presentation. My anti-virus software didn't like it, and I'm not brave enough to argue with anti-virus software. I'll try to learn more about Ferguson is some other way.
3:37 pm on December 29th, 2010 95
Those are good suggestions… but…
1. The problem with wealth distribution schemes, like making all poor people homeowners, is that the wealth quickly undistributes itself back into the hands of those who work hard or smart… and the poor are, once again, poor.
2. Black "leaders" rally for policies that maintain their position of leadership. A large, poor and uneducated population of angry blacks convinced that all of their problems are because of a racist system that doesn't give them enough, keeps their position necessary.
Bill Cosby spoke the truth of the matter… and look where it got him.
3. Vote for who? Candidates who promise the most wealth redistribution and entitlements? Candidates whose biggest qualification is shared skin color? Stupid and uneducated people make stupid and uneducated decisions… including their vote.
I say…
1. House poor people in clean and comfortable, highly controlled, prison-style dormatories… uniforms and a strict schedule… no drugs, alcohol or personal possessions… birth control, three squares and free education and training. There will be those who choose to become institutionalized… and there will be many who realize how much they want freedom… and they will work to get it.
Before you start yapping about "rights", consider that you give up many rights when you choose to live freely off the forced labor of others. You instantly reclaim your rights when you live off your own labor.
2. Much of the current black "leadership" should stop being treated by suck-up politicians, Hollywood stooges and media manipulators, as black "leadership".
3. Those on public assistance should loose their right to vote just as felons lose their right to vote.
Easy.
If the Fed ever fixes that broken Power Off switch on the dollar printing press and we run out of money, some off this stuff is going to resolve itself… but it won't be pretty or compassionate.
5:33 pm on December 29th, 2010 96
Someotherguy #5 You hit the nail on the head. I honestly don't understand how someone could be so f'ing stupid to get a low score on the ASVAB. Hell, I could have dropped acid & passed THAT test. We need to face an important truth, I believe that the current poverty pimps in the civil rights movement WANT Black & Hispanic people to be poor to keep themselves in well compensated positions in these organizations. Blame whitey for all your problems. Just because you didn't get enough jellybeans when you were a kid doesn't excuse you from being violent or being a lifelong loser. Let's give PARENTS the control over education instead of the teachers unions. HOW you may ask? VOUCHERS, if poor kids are stuck in low performing schools give vouchers to the parents so they can move their kids to good schools. The bad schools can either shape up or CLOSE up shop. Michelle Rhee in Washington, DC did wonders in a mostly minority school district by making & enforcing STANDARDS. The teachers union opposed her vehemently. Blacks & Hispanic kids are not stupid. If you expect them to fail, they will fail but if you expect them to succeed THEY WILL SUCCEED.
8:05 pm on December 29th, 2010 97
There is a lot of BS flying around this post. A lot of peoples opinion on who to blame. I don't know why folks don't look at things from a logical perspective and access the work of scholars. Before you start saying "the results are contaminated with their values and beliefs" read their work.
http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/543
Click on the "Full Text: PDF" link.
If a parent doesn't care about their child, who will?
12:19 am on December 30th, 2010 98
THE cause? Too bad you weren't able to look at Ferguson's presentation because if you had, you would learn that there is no single cause of the achievement gap. Ferguson's data showed that African-American students made great gains in closing the gap throughout the 70s and 60s. The cohort that made the largest gains suddenly flatlined when they reached high school in 1988. Now what could have caused this? Slavery wasn't reintroduced. There was no mass of foreclosures. One can only speculate, but Ferguson notes that 1988-1992 is when hiphop rose to prominence. He thinks black kids who got caught up in hiphop quit reading and spent less time one homework. He also shows graphs comparing differences in home environment between black, white, Hispanic, and Asian kids of the same socioeonomic class. In each group, black kids were the most likely to watch television and the least likely to have a computer in their bedrooms. He observed that the widest achievement gap is found not among the lowest socioeconomic group but among the highest. As his title "Youth Culture, Parenting, Quality of Instruction, and the Achievement Gap" indicates, he believes there are multiple causes.
If Spanish colonialism were THE cause, then one would expect Filipinos to have horribly low achievement since they were colonized for 300 years by the Spanish, followed by 100 years under US rule, and Japanese occupation in WWII. Whaddaya think, Glans? If I go dig up comparative data on Filipino and Hispanic students, will I find similar achievement levels? There isn't national data, but the state of California annual achievement tests, STAR, organizes its data by subgroups that include both Filipino and Hispanic, so I compared the two, and guess what? From grades 2-11, Filipinos had passing rates ranging from the 50s to 70s on the English tests while Hispanics had passing rates in the 40s. Whites had passing rates in the 60s and 70s.
"But Filipinos speak better English!" Glans might protest. Well, you might be onto something there. 80% of US-born and 70% of naturalized US citizens of Hispanic heritage graduate from high school compared to only 40% of noncitizens. People who enter the US illegally (as opposed to overstaying visas) come mostly from Mexico, El Salvador, and Honduras. This includes a fair number of children and teens with limited formal education and literacy in their native languages. An increasing number of Mexican illegal immigrants speak Spanish as a second language. If colonialism is to blame for lower achievement among Hispanics, then it is because Mexico, El Salvador, and Honduras were colonized by the Spanish, not the English.
Gangs are also a factor. Our elementary students are happy, well-adjusted, and make great progress, but when they reach middle school, they become vulnerable to gang pressure. Kids who don't join may be bullied or harassed. Now, Glans, lest you helpfully suggest that our school address the problem of gangs, please know that we already are doing that. Our bilingual, bicultural staff interact closely with our Hispanic kids and their families, but countering gang influence is very difficult since gang members are older brothers, cousins, and neighbors. This is one reason why I favor ICE deporting illegal immigrants suspected of gang membership. Since they're here illegally, they don't have a legal right to remain here, and they poison the well for Hispanic kids who might otherwise be successful.
I hope my comments make clear that the achievement gap is a complex problem with multiple causes.
2:36 am on December 30th, 2010 99
Man-oh-man…
Sonagi has written pages and pages…
…and there is not one thing I disagree with.
Sonagi, have you thought of going into administration? Politics?
5:59 am on December 30th, 2010 100
I have neither the interest nor the aptitude for administration or politics. All of the 40 students that I work with are below grade level in reading and many in math, too. Closing the achievement gap is what I do for a living. Happily, most of my students manage to overcome the lingering yoke of Spanish colonialism and reach grade level proficiency.
6:29 am on December 30th, 2010 101
Well done, Sonagi. Your students are lucky to have you.
10:10 am on December 30th, 2010 102
Sonagi 98, the Filipinos we see were typically middle-class in their homeland. They're often bilingual or trilingual – English, Tagalog, and their home language if it wasn't Tagalog. And they're literate in all three. We don't see the real victims of Spanish colonialism, the majority of Filipinos, who are very poor. And of course, we never see the victims of Austronesian colonialism, the Melanesian tribesmen. Moreover, aside from some unpleasantness in the early days, US imperialism did them more good than harm. Our policy was not to keep them as subjects forever but the get them governing themselves.
They're similar to Indian immigrants, literate in English, Hindi, and one or more other Indian languages. We don't see the illiterate masses or the tribesmen. They're the victims not only of British imperialism, but many previous imperialisms.
I wouldn't be surprised if hip-hop is the ruin of black kids in recent decades, just a rock-and-roll was the ruin of the whole country in the fifties and sixties. What with Elvis the pelvis, and the Beatles with their mop-tops, we're lucky to have anything we can call Western Civilization today.
10:41 am on December 30th, 2010 103
Keep trying, Glans. Mexico and the nations of Central America gained independence from Spain in the early 18th Century. Those nations have had plenty of time to undo whatever damage was done by the Spanish. If you're going to show that lower Hispanic academic achievement is caused by 16th-18th Century Spanish colonialism, you'll need to connect the dots while accounting for the effect of English language proficiency on Hispanic achievement.
One can only speculate one why black student achievement stalled in the late 80s, but obviously slavery is not to blame.
12:43 pm on December 30th, 2010 104
Chickenhead #95, you're an erudite scholar. And I'm stealing your words for my own.
1:01 pm on December 30th, 2010 105
It's probably true that Filipino immigrants are better off eocnomically since even those that overstayed visas still had to qualify for those visas. Nevertheless, you're making a giant unproveable assumption that the ancestors of very poor Filipinos were more oppressed or exploited by Spanish rule than the ancestors of somewhat better-off Filipino immigrants.
1:26 pm on December 30th, 2010 106
unprovable
3:30 pm on December 30th, 2010 107
Sonagi and all the rest from #89 till now are great reading. Possibly explaining the differences I experienced with my black soldiers after the 90's began.
But then again that would be a wide brush stroke. I got along just fine with many in the late 90's. But there was still a different feel after the mid 90's, that I never did understand.
Then there was that Hispanic in 2004 that spent most of his time attempting to unearth racists. I think he would have had better luck if he had looked in the mirror. You would think he would have had more pressing matters in Iraq.
The EO witch hunt was live and well (along with a sense of entitlement) among the enlisted Minority+female ranks from around 1996 till my retirement.
I've been out five years now and wonder if it is the same still.
3:34 pm on December 30th, 2010 108
ChickenHead, you get another Commendation for #95.
Yea, I know you were holding your breath, waiting for that. 
4:32 pm on December 30th, 2010 109
GI Korea no need to make special victim group for such not so smart students. NK army in Korean War had special mission for men they considered not essential to their goal. Such men were made to charge directly into SK/US soldiers in front of their more valued units to absolve the bullets.
5:10 pm on December 30th, 2010 110
I think it's rather quaint that some of us think there is difference between demopublicans and republicrats.
6:55 pm on December 30th, 2010 111
Leon LaPorte 110, honest to goodness, do you think Clinton and Obama are as bad as Bush? Pelosi as bad a Ginrich?
7:03 pm on December 30th, 2010 112
We're still left with the question of why black and hispanic kids do worse than whites on the military aptitude test. We've ruled out colonialism and slavery. What then? We've got to think outside the box here.
Maybe it was the lack, in their ancestral lands, of a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Wtihout a well-regulated militia, they didn't learn to count: one, two, three, four. They didn't learn to tell their left foot from their right. They didn't have discipline.
11:26 pm on December 30th, 2010 113
I already suggested some reasons (language proficiency, home environment, clustering in poor neighborhoods served by schools with inadequate human and material resources), but you apparently didn't like any of them, preferring to cling tenaciously to your slavery and (Spanish) colonialism theory.
12:45 am on December 31st, 2010 114
One thing that needs to be said in regards to Hispanic people is that many of them, including those who are proficient in English raise their kids ONLY in Spanish. When I was stationed in El Paso there were many little kids who spoke nothing but Spanish. These kids will be behind all their lives. Just yesterday here in Bowling Green, KY which doesn't have a huge amount of Hispanics we went to eat lunch at a small Mexican restaurant that we enjoy. There was a Hispanic family next to us with two small kids & they were jawbeating away in Spanish with not one word of English spoken. To me this is child abuse. I can understand wanting your kids to be BILINGUAL but why would you want to hold them back not knowing the language of opportunity in America, ENGLISH? When I was in El Paso we had a Puerto Rican RN on our ward who spoke English as well as I can. She had a 12 yo daughter who had JUST started to learn English. This is a HUGE factor in my opinion of what is holding many Hispanics back.
1:00 am on December 31st, 2010 115
Speaking only Spanish at home doesn't keep Hispanic kids from becoming proficient in English. Speaking mostly Spanish at school would.
1:21 am on December 31st, 2010 116
Sonagi #115 I was never in a schoolroom in El Paso, TX, USA but I would think that most if not all of the instruction was done in English. I saw way too many people whose total command of English was "please, thank you, & money". From what I have seen & read bilingual education is a dismal failure but total immersion in English leads to success. I think parents raising their kids only in Spanish will destine their kids to be landscapers, construction workers, housekeepers, & dishwashers. I wish the Hispanic 'civil rights' community would encourage their folks to raise their kids so that they can speak English. But as I talked about earlier these poverty pimps only want more power for themselves by getting largess from the government for their community. As I said in my comment #114 if you don't teach your kids the predominate language of the nation that you are living in, to me that is child abuse.
1:39 am on December 31st, 2010 117
Tom L., why should they have to learn English? It's been made very easy for people who speak only Spanish to get by without having to learn the lanquage. How many signs in El Paso are also written in spanish, or only spanish? We've made it very easy for immigrants, legal or otherwise, to not have to assimilate into America. It's amazing how we have so many here who want what America has to offer, but demand special concessions in order to maintain their own lifestyle in a foreign land. I don't know if I would term raising a child only speaking Spanish as child abuse, but I would certainly call it neglect that will impede that childs ability to rise above where their parents are. In times past, immigrants raised their kids so they would be better off than they were. Now they are raising them to take over their place in that culture.
1:52 am on December 31st, 2010 118
The teacher speaking mostly English and the students speaking mostly English are two different things. Our school district is about 25% Hispanic, and nearly all of our Hispanic kids live in homes where Spanish is spoken. This is not a guess or assumption. Parents of all students regardless of citizenship or ethnicity complete a home language survey to identify children who should be tested for English proficieny. All but one of my students comes from a Spanish-speaking home; the kids use mostly English in class, but some will switch to Spanish when talking to each other. Sometimes the conversation is related to class instruction, but often it is social chatter. Though nearly all of my students can speak Spanish, not all of them speak it fluently, and they spend most of their day in a classroom where Spanish speakers are a minority, so speaking English is a natural choice. If our school were nearly all Hispanic, the kids might be more likely to use Spanish instead of English.
There are district, state, and federal regulations regarding the extent to which teachers can mandate use of a particular language in class. I understand from other teachers that older students in particular often choose to use Spanish in class even if they're fluent in English.
Bilingualism imparts not only the practical ability to communicate in two languages but also greater brain plasticity that enhances problem-solving and thinking skills.
I know moms who speak no English but listen as their children read take-home books in English. One mom has her children read each book three or four times, as indicated by the reading log that gets returned faithfully the next day. Not surprisingly, her kids are great readers. This Mexican family looks to be of mostly indigenous ancestry, but maybe somehow they managed to escape or overcome the ravages of Spanish colonialism. (Couldn't resist, Glans)
2:20 am on December 31st, 2010 119
Sonagi #118, I wish more Moms, both English speaking, Spanish speaking, or whatever were like the Moms you wrote about in your last paragraph.
3:43 am on December 31st, 2010 120
Nothing wrong with US schools. But let me be honest with you. It's your culture. It's your stupid culture that worships dummies that can play football over "nerds", you know the ugly Asian kid with buck tooth and thick glasses with pant bottoms high up his knees?
What do you expect when your culture looks down on those who are "smart" and who study hard as "nerds" and equate party lovers as jocks or studs? What do you expect when your kids are extremely happy with grades B's, C's, and god help us, even D's?? "Hey mom!… I passed the test.. I got a D! Aren't you proud of me?".
And as for Kushibo's Hawaii.. that's what you get when North East Asians (Koreans, Japanese, and some but not all Chinese) over the generations get diluted culturally into American society, and mix with other races. They lose their sharpness and competitive spirit.
American PIS scores would have been far worse if it wasn't for all those North East Asian Americans, pulling the score up for the low grade slackers who are whites, hispanics, and blacks.
3:48 am on December 31st, 2010 121
IQ scores by nations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of…
South Korea highest score, not counting Hong Kong which has no rural population and only has quarter of the population of Metropolitan Seoul.
9:12 am on December 31st, 2010 122
Good Points Tom. Good points.
9:40 am on December 31st, 2010 123
I was getting ready to post my usual smart ass passive aggressive comments, but seeing all of you really tearing this problem apart with no holds barred caused me great pause.
Well done. This is part of a much bigger "fight", and we just can't lose this one.
10:09 am on December 31st, 2010 124
Sonagi 113 suggests some reasons:
"language proficiency, home environment, clustering in poor neighborhoods served by schools with inadequate human and material resources"
but she doesn't explain why these reasons mostly affect black and hispanic kids. We know it's not because of colonialism and slavery. What is it then? Skip Gates, cited by Sonagi 92, says it's lack of land ownership by grand parents. Skip could be right, but he's skating on thin ice, because the lack of land ownership is highest among groups victimized by colonialism and slavery. Colonialists take the land! And slaves are removed from their own land so they can work the master's land!
Sonagi 118 makes an extremely important observation: some members of indigenous populations succeed. The same can be said of some freedmen. It therefore follows, as the night the day, that slavery and colonialism did not cause modern problems.
10:54 am on December 31st, 2010 125
Glans,
I find it interesting that you repeatedly use the vague term "colonialism" and lump it together with slavery. Any particular reason why you are avoiding the more precise identification "Spanish colonialism"? The distinction is important because half of all Hispanics are the children of immigrants. Few can claim ancestors among the Pima, Tarahumara, or other native peoples whose ancestral lands straddle the US-Mexico border. Thus, the English colonists and their descendants did take any land from the ancestors of the poor Hispanic immigrants who cluster into poor urban and suburban neighborhoods. A Mixteco-speaker from Oaxaca has no historical claim to the land that is now Prince Georges County, Maryland. Still waiting for you to connect the dots instead of just bleating the vague collective guilt-mongering word "colonialism" over and over.
Black kids clustered in black neighborhoods in and of itself isn't a problem. Black kids don't need to go with school with white, Hispanic, or Asian kids to be successful. It is the home, neighborhood, and school environment that is the problem. If you want to say that slavery and perhaps more importantly, post-slavery segregation and discrimination are partly to blame for the present disparity in wealth and by consequence, academic achievement, I agree. If you still insist that slavery is THE cause, you'll need to connect the dots on that idea, too.
4:08 pm on December 31st, 2010 126
Sonagi 125, I mentioned the Spanish empire in Glans 9. Since then, referring to hispanics, I let readers guess which colonialism would be most pertinient. On the other hand, slavery was as essential to the Spanish colonial system as to the English/British. Not to speak of the French, Portuguese, and Dutch empires.
But you've lowered the discourse by accusing me of bleating, so I think I'll stop commenting for a few days. Let's have a cooling-off periond.
5:49 pm on December 31st, 2010 127
Hmmm…
Tom's link eventually took me here… Race and Intelligence.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intellige…
This may answer a few questions… and bring up many more.
Racists, culturalists, biologists,environmentalists, and many more "ists" will find studies to back up their point of view… well, all except anti-Northeast Asian racists. They will have to slink out the back with their heads down.
Anyway, it certainly touches on some of the points Sonagi and Glans are making… and certainly should be considered here.
1:06 am on January 1st, 2011 128
If my use of the word "bleating" keeps you from defending your views, then I'll take it back because I really want to see you justify your claim that colonialism is THE cause of Hispanic underachievement. Let's cool off for a few days, but do come back and explain your thinking. It is true that that the Spanish colonized the countries of origin for Hispanic immigrants. It is true that Hispanic immigrants are poor. You still need to explicitly state the cause-effect relationship between these two facts and link them to lower Hispanic achievement.
African-Americans were lawfully and unlawfully deprived of enjoying the full economic fruits of America's rise to prosperity from the Industrial Revolution through the postwar period. They were kept poor in a nation that became rich. That is not true for Hispanics, whose ancesters always lived a hand-to-mouth existence regardless of who their rulers were.
3:04 am on January 1st, 2011 129
ancestors
3:36 pm on January 5th, 2011 130
Sonagi 128, I can't prove that colonialism caused academic underachievement, so I no longer believe it.
We need to look elsewhere. As we are reminded in Sonagi 64, "Those underperforming kids are concentrated in underperforming schools … ." I wish I knew why Hispanic kids are more likely than the general population to attend underperfroming schools.
And we have Skip Gates, in Sonagi 91, saying that property ownership helps grandchildren's school success. Maybe older Hispanics just didn't buy land, I don't know.
Now I would like to delete "So what should schools do? They can’t undo centuries of exploitive policies by the Spanish empire, nor centuries of slavery and discrimination throughout the hemisphere." from Glans 9.
I'll ask instead, what should we do about the underperfoming shcools?
4:58 pm on January 5th, 2011 131
“Too many of our high school students are not graduating ready to begin college or a career — and many are not eligible to serve in our armed forces,” U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan told the AP. “I am deeply troubled by the national security burden created by America’s underperforming education system.”
WTF??? What's her job?
That's like a fire chief pulling up his fire truck to a burning house saying "Yep, that's a shame that there house caught fire. I can't believe they weren't more careful." Then casually drives back to the station.
7:48 pm on January 5th, 2011 132
Ok all this nonsense dealing with which Evil White European Male (EWEM) to blame needs to stop. If anyone cares enough to get off their soapbox and take a step back and view the US *youth* culture as a whole it should become pretty obvious why the under-performance exists. Its not about money or educational aids / teacher salary's, its about role models. Young children model their behavior, desires and goals after adults they see and further refine those habits, desires and beliefs from their interaction with peers. For a child to learn and succeed in school they must *want* to learn and succeed. To possess that desire the child must have a valid role model to pattern that desire off of and peer acceptance of that desire. Someone somewhere that the child respects must be providing affirmation that the desire to do well and succeed is valid and that effort put towards that goal is worth it. This may seem like common sense but its a point often overlooked, there is no money to be made or political points to be scored in it.
The above is important because in the US youth culture this very moment, it is *not* cool to be *overly smart* or otherwise ahead of your peer group. Take a moment and step into the world of your average underprivileged Black / Hispanic 13 year old. What role models will they have access to, what music / cultural influences will they be exposed to at that age? What will their peer group be telling them is acceptable social norms, beliefs and goals? You can sit down and tell that 13 year old all day that they should study, go to college and succeed, but their peer group will tell them its a waste of time and they should just drop out anyway. This is the reason under-perming children are concentrated in under-performing schools, they originally came from the poor class of citizens and have since self-enforced that under-performing level.
And before anyone tries to give me BS, I ~was~ that overly smart kid from a poor family going to a poor school. My entire peer group wanted nothing more then to have sex, drink alcohol, do drugs and waste life away. If you had a desire to succeed you were ostracized, labeled and generally pushed out of the social group. This continued until my parents moved and I was put into small high-school (still poor) where being "smart" was considered the norm and success was everyone's expected goal. Complete 180 degree difference, I went from being ostracizes / attacked and labeled to being congratulated and respected for placing 1st overall in a state computer science competition. The school didn't have lots of money, but the money it did have went directly into science / math / computer study programs and not into sports. Biggest mistake I see society making is the idolization of sports / music stars over physicists / doctors / engineers.
8:38 pm on January 5th, 2011 133
Two statistics that might be relevant to your question, Glans:
1. 50% of US-born Hispanics are the children of immigrants.
2. 8% of all children born in the US last year were born to illegal immigrant women.
One reason why Hispanics are concentrated in underperforming schools is the lower socioeconomic status of their immigrant parents, who are mostly unskilled laborers with limited job opportunities because many do not have legal authorization to work in the US.
11:05 pm on January 5th, 2011 134
Sonagi- Thanks for the stats. It only reinforces my idea to fence off the southern border and make Canada the 51st state.
10:32 am on January 6th, 2011 135
someotherguy 132, our white and asian kids, even though they're immersed in youth culture, perform at world-class levels. Our underperformance is concentrated in our blacks and hispanics.
Of course, I understand, many blacks and hispanics are doing well, and many whites and asians aren't. I'm just talking about averages, painting with broad strokes.
Sonagi 133, my question is not about the cause. I thought I had an idea about the cause, but I was wrong. If the explanation is the "lower socioeconomic status of their immigrant parents, who are mostly unskilled laborers with limited job opportunities because many do not have legal authorization to work in the US," then we wonder why there are so many unskilled laborers trying to get out of Mexico. But I've given up trying to figure that one out. All I know is, the Spanish Empire didn't cause it. I'll leave it at that until I can think of something else.
In any case, we can't change the past. The question now is, how do we help our underperforming schools?
10:57 am on January 6th, 2011 136
There are so many unskilled laborers leaving Mexico because it is right next door to a large, prosperous country with a porous border and a diverse population that is relatively easy to disappear into. There are plenty of poor, unskilled laborers in other countries that are not OECD members, but they'd have to fly or swim to get here.
11:22 am on January 6th, 2011 137
@135 Glans,
You unintentionally tripped upon something and might not realize it yet. Look very carefully at the role models / culturally accepted / peer-enforced *norms* of Blacks / Hispanics, then look at the same thing for the Whites / Asians.
Being a poor white kid from a poor family going to a poor school that was majority blacks allowed me to see things are they really are. Imagine what a young poor black male child see's as a *successful* older black male adult. From their point of view you must be either A) be a sports star, B) be a rap star, or C) be a big shot in a gang. There isn't an option to be a physicist, a chemist, a biologist, a doctor, an engineer, or even a business owner. A child tries telling his peer-group that he wants to do those things when he grows up and they'll laugh at him, ostracize him, and even use physical violence on him. This will severely discourage any poor young aspiring black child from ever achieving that career goal.
I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility, if you desire to lift yourself out of poverty then you must take the matter into your own hands and not rely / expect someone's assistance. The only *people* keeping the Blacks / Hispanics poor and under-performing are themselves. By enforcing their own cultural beliefs that disregard intelligence and being successful they set themselves up for future poverty. This problem isn't new, nor is it unique to the Blacks / Hispanics in the US. Its been around for centuries, it just found a good home here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
12:58 pm on January 6th, 2011 138
Sonagi 136, I now realize that the cause of Mexico's poverty is beyond my comprehension. The question now is, how do we help our underperforming schools? With the history we have, not the history we wish we had. How do we go forward?
someotherguy 137, I've given up trying to figure out the reason why black academic achievement lags. I thought slavery might have had something to do with it, but I was wrong. Is Skip Gates wrong, too? Does land ownerhsip by grandparents really not promote school success?
I'm not sure I agree with you that admiring athletes and entertainers is anti-intellectual. Most cultures, including very successful cultures around the world, admire athletes and entertainers.
But back to the my main question: how do we help our underperforming schools? Should we wait for a million black kids to accept their personal responsibity? Until then, can nothing can be done?
1:12 pm on January 6th, 2011 139
Glans wrote:
Do they? Got a comparison of White kids in American versus other countries?
While I will concede that Black students as a whole — particularly poor Blacks — are underperforming, it's easy to fall into the trap of stereotyping Blacks as failing and Whites as succeeding. For this test, 61% of Blacks passed, 71% of Hispanics passed, and 84% of Whites passed. That's not a whole lot of daylight between Hispanics and Whites, and when the percentage of Blacks who pass is nearly three-fourths the percentage of Whites that pass, the respective "failure" and "success" labels are also somewhat undeserved.
We might want to look at Black students as a whole and wonder how these results are so low, but I'm not sure if we can look at Whites as a whole for a solution to the problem.
1:33 pm on January 6th, 2011 140
@138,
Admiring is fine, seeing them as ideals of success is not. What value does an individual athlete contribute to society, the human race, or even to himself? Yes they can run really fast and throw that ball into that little circle of metal really well, but what exactly does that accomplish? The same applies to modern pop music. What is accomplished by rapping about shooting the police, banging all dem hoes, showing off all the bling bling, or otherwise glamorizing the gangsta life style. That very life style that results in much violence and random death. That very life style that relies upon the illegal production and distribution of drugs and the resulting violence and destruction. As a 28 year hold I ~know~ all that glamorization is complete BS, most of those "gangsta rap stars" are college educated and from middle class or upper-middle class family's who have never lived in "da ghetto". They are preying on the young impressionable
minds of the poor youth who desperately seek someone to affirm their lives and provide them with a way out, or at least a hope for a way to a better life. There are some very solid, strong and good black professionals in our society, but the current black culture refuse's to allow for that.
Current "Black" leadership has absolutely zero desire to change the situation, it provides them with a purpose, an enemy, and lots of money. Why should they make their own existence obsolete? The logic goes, if racist didn't exist then there would be no need for the NAACP, there for it racist is eliminated so too must the NAACP.
Its all easily understood if people just step off their soap boxes and actually try so see that life from the perspective of someone inside it, rather then from some distanced philosophical point of view. Without solid role models children will most likely end up in bad situations in their life. These role models must come from somewhere, with through parents, older siblings (who themselves need good role models), or from what they see on TV / listen to on music. With TV / music being the primary means of youth education these days, its no wonder their growing up like that.
1:49 pm on January 6th, 2011 141
someotherguy wrote:
Utter b.s.
If "current 'Black' leadership" were able to show that this or that effected positive change — particularly if it were a positive change that required funding — they could tout it for all the world to see and watch money pour in to their communities (and perhaps even their own interests' coffers).
I'm guessing I might be one of the only regulars here who has actually lived in a predominantly Black neighborhood (in fact, an almost exclusively Black neighborhood), and when I hear things like that — notions that utterly ignore the actual problems of underfunded schools, quality teachers avoiding their areas, an eroding or eroded tax base especially as a result of White flight, an absence of an effective police force that wants to be a positive presence instead of creating a police state, rampant drugs and the concomitant crime, and a general sense of hopelessness, in favor of some conservative fantasy of Black leadership being the ones really keeping their people down, it just makes me realized how effed up our country is when it comes to solving any kind of problem.
Enjoy the White rural America meth epidemic, kiddies. With drug kingpins focusing on their new targets, White America will finally get a taste of what those underperforming Black people were going through with the crime, failed dreams, drug violence, underperforming population, joblessness, mental health issues, and general mayhem.
1:59 pm on January 6th, 2011 142
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/allen_west_(politici…
Here is a good example to follow. But he is not a star athlete and dosn't sing, that I recall.
But if you want to "fix it", I recommend him as a fine example of a successful Man.
( What Would Allen West Do )
2:32 pm on January 6th, 2011 143
@141,
Except that if you read what I wrote then you'd know that I lived many of my school years in poor predominately black neighborhood. Namely junior high / highschool.
~ALL~ those things you listed are symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. Treating the symptoms instead of the problem will just serve to force hide the problem, but it'll still be there. "White flight" as you call it happens because crime gets out of control, which initiates some politician to start a "crack down" which in turn creates that police state feeling. Crime gets out of control because youth see no other way to success but to participate in these crimes, and once in your in for life. People who's main occupation is crime must continue this occupation until they are caught, and the incarceration just further serves to harden them and make them better criminals.
The more you dig into this problem, the deeper you follow the chain of events the more you see the root of it all is the children themselves. Once they start down that path its improbably they'll ever be capable of turning back. Then it stands to reason that your best chance of preventing the problem from happening is to keep the children from going down that path. Now since we're not a communistic police nation, we can't dictate to children the path they are to take, instead we must somehow communicate to them and convince them not to take the path of crime. My suggestion is positive role models and de-glamorization of the gangsta / mega athlete life style. Companies regularly use glamorization to sell their products, how exactly is selling the gangsta life style any different from this. If young children are lead to believe that "respect, bling bling, and plenty of that wet putang" are what lie down the path of crime, then they will choose that path.
And yes current "black leadership", aka NAACP / *Reverend* Jessie Jackson have absolutely no desire to alter the situation. They already rake in tons of money from their followers, why risk losing that? Or did you miss the expensive suits and limo's the *reverend* likes to ride around in. This is like expecting an oil company to do serious research into alternate fuel sources. They'll do their token efforts, but never anything that might risk their main enterprise. In the case of someone like Jackson, its selling fear / hate / blame and anger.
Or did you again miss this,
Officer at a house that is being broken into: Sir I need to see some Identification?
Black Man in a suit who broke into the house: What the hell, i don't need to show you any identification, I live here.
Officer: Sir it looks like your breaking into this house, I need to see your identification.
Black Man: Ohh a white officer demanding to see my ID, I guess its because I'm black huh, I'm not going to show you any identification.
Officer: *on radio* I have a suspect breaking into a residence, their refusing to show identification, I need backup.
And yet somehow "black leadership" criticized the officer for being white and demanding identification. Go figure that, a Police officer upon seeing a man breaking into a house, demands identification.
2:45 pm on January 6th, 2011 144
A few points, someotherguy…
First, some of the things I listed are not the symptoms, they are the problem themselves. If you live in fear of drug violence because you can't afford to live somewhere else, that's a problem. It may be a symptom of some larger problem (that all of America has, and yet can't seem to resolve elsewhere either), but it's a direct problem that directly affects your quality of life, without which you would be more likely to succeed and live a long life.
Second, in our neighborhood's case, White flight started to occur when middle-class Blacks started moving in, not before the crime that came after the resulting drop in housing values and tax base erosion and eventual rise in crime and drop in school quality. That's one of those problems White America tends to overlook: White people don't want to live around too many Black people, not even middle-class Blacks. One or two, fine. Get beyond a certain percent, and a lot of Whites feel antsy. Decent White folk won't, but they, too, are affected by the falling housing prices when the White flight starts and they leave, too.
That's SoCal in a nutshell. We lived it in the 1970s and 1980s.
Next, what the NAACP does means squat in California. What Sacramento does means something. What the City Hall that spruces up neighborhoods in Bixby Knolls but not North Long Beach does.
2:51 pm on January 6th, 2011 145
#143, You seem to have nailed it Someotherguy.
I would never refuse to show my ID to a Police Officer, no matter what his/her color.
No UP side to that kind of stupidity. Unless you're black and the officer is white and you know that in the current American culture, a black can cry racism for damn near anything and get good press time. It worked. Then Obama had to make an error and say the cops acted stupidly, with no facts at hand. Wrong man fell into the wrong trap.
I'm reminded of the Duke Lacrosse event and compare that to the Christian/Newsom Murders.
3:07 pm on January 6th, 2011 146
White people are such victims in America, eh?
3:09 pm on January 6th, 2011 147
"If you live in fear of drug violence",
That is a symptom of out of control crime, the ability to move elsewhere is irrelevant to the problem itself. Out of control crime happens when too many people choose to become criminals and is perpetuated when children see crime as the only relevant alternative. Locking up criminals only fixes the immediate problem and does nothing for the child part. Focus on preventing the children from becoming criminals and the crime will go down and the situation improved.
"Second, in our neighborhood’s case, White flight started to occur when middle-class Blacks started moving in, not before the crime that came after the resulting drop in housing values and tax base erosion and eventual rise in crime and drop in school quality. "
So your now blaming all your problems on a bunch of snobbish white people who moved away? And your evidence that it was because of "blacks moving in" that the white people moved away is what exactly? Is your community so weak that its broken that easily? You have demonstrated your problem already, the desire to foist your problems onto others instead of directing them at yourself. I'm fairly sure those people left not because of a bunch of blacks moving in, but because crime was already on the rise and they felt like getting out while the getting was good. Now I don't have any evidence of this, but it seems a fairly logical decision that if crime was on the rise in my neighborhood and I can the ability to economically move elsewhere, that I should do it sooner rather then later.
Dropping housing values do not cause high crime, its the other way around. Housing values are nothing but a theoretical number someone is speculating on, I thought we learned that from the recent housing crash. Your home doesn't magically gain / lose value, its value is only as a shelter and a home, not as a piggy bank. If someone else is wanting to pay you more for your home then you paid for it, great news, if their willing to pay you less, ohh well, as long as the house served its purpose then all is well. Rampant crime is an undesirably element and thus any home near or in an area of rampant crime will be less desirable then a home in a safer location.
Kushibo you are racist, your comments above demonstrate this. The fact that you blamed your neighborhoods problems on a bunch of white people shows this. That fact that you made this ginormous general statement that "White people don’t want to live around too many Black people, not even middle-class Blacks" which is utter horse sh!t shows this. I'm living breathing proof that your views are wrong. I'm now a middle / upper-middle-class adult white male who has absolutely no reservations about the color of my neighbors skin. Hell prior to coming to South Korea my best friend was black, we used to spend hours chilling and playing video games on the week nights.
And maybe I'm reading this wrong but are you blaming "white people" for some politician deciding to spend city money in the area where their getting the most financial support? Their fcking politicians, that is what they do. Its not some secret white conspiracy about "hey I should spend this money in this poor neighborhood, but instead I'm gonna spend it in your rich neighborhood because your white and we whites are cool like that".
I don't know what it is about race discussions that makes otherwise rational people lose their bearings. Its like religion and politics.
3:23 pm on January 6th, 2011 148
@Retired,
Allen West seems a fine role model for young children period, no skin color required. Its people like him (amongst others) that children should want to be when they "grow up". I know I used a racial qualifier when I was discussing role models but really that is because children will look to those most similar to them, and at that young age its more about physical similarity then anything else. I would be happy in a world where people completely drop racial qualifies, where your no longer black / white / yellow / green / brown and are just refered to as human. Ohh well enough dreaming.
@146,
Why do people always try to retreat into the "I'm a victim" stance when their arguments start failing. Unfortunately for you this is the one place I can walk right into without any fear of labeling. This is because I was victimized by black racial hatred when I was growing up. As a poor white kid from a poor family in a poor black school what do you think happened? I was bullied, beat up, call names and ostracized. I was called various forms of "whitey / cracker / f*cker" through school by black kids. When my parents took it to the school principle (who was black) he said there was no problem with that they kids were doing. If I had said anything back to them I would of been labeled "racist", but they could call my things all day long and I had to take it. This is the hell I had to go through until my parents got the money together to move to another town. Did I blame them? Did I go throughout my life cursing all blacks for the pain they inflicted upon me? Did I attempt to get revenge or carry a chip on my shoulder from this? No I continued my life, graduated high-school, joined the US Military and became successful. No one helped me, my parents don't have the money for college, hell they didn't have the money for ~anything~ in my life. Everything I've ever achieved has been because of who I am not the color of my skin or through someone else's preference. So please tell me about this mythical "white preference" BS your about to bring up. Where can I get some?
And kindly STFU about victims.
3:29 pm on January 6th, 2011 149
White people who cry and moan about how they are so trapped by PC and anything they say or do will make them get called a racist are creating a victim mentality. So STFU to you, too.
As for things I've said above, I have never made the case, as you seem to be suggesting, that all of Blacks problems are the result of White people. Nope, never believed that for a second. All I've done is point out that Blacks don't all fit the stereotypes that non-Black America has depicted them as, and a lot of the problems they face are beyond their control but are under the control of the powers-that-be, which is not a White conspiracy (if it were, then there would be no White trash) but is made of a White elite that has no clue what's really going on outside their own enclaves.
3:51 pm on January 6th, 2011 150
@149,
You deliberately worded your agreement so that the reader would come to the conclusion that "white people moving out" was the cause of all neighborhoods problems. Don't attempt word games with me, I'm better then you are at them.
And why does the color of my skin have anything to do with what arguments I can and can not say? Have you become so blinded by your own internal racism that you now use racial qualifiers on what arguments are acceptable? Must I be "black / hispanic / non-white" to be a victim? Does the color of my skin prevent me from being verbally attacked / ostracized and physically assaulted? Do I not bleed the same color blood as you?
"White people who cry and moan about how they are so trapped by PC and anything they say or do will make them get called a racist are creating a victim mentality"
This statement is very ~VERY~ racist. If your not willing to admit that and see it for yourself, then there is nothing I can do to show it to you.
And what stereotypes have I alluded to? I've never mentioned any stereotypes, I've been around many different kinds of people and know that you can't stereotype them. Now I have mentioned *youth* (black in particular) culture, and unfortunately that culture itself perpetuates those incorrect stereotypes. That culture isn't created by any "white privileged individual", its created by black people, typically privileged black people looking to make money. Change that culture and you have a good shot at changing the youth, which means you have a very good shot at lowing the poverty rate amongst blacks, which in turn means you have a half decent shot at lower the crime rate.
"and a lot of the problems they face are beyond their control but are under the control of the powers-that-be"
This is completely false, there is no problem that is beyond your own control. This single belief is what cause's dis-empowerment amongst people. The ultimate power over life is the power to take it. You can demonstrate your ultimate power over your life by taking a gun, pointing it at your head and pulling the trigger. Unfortunately many young people do exactly this every year because they lack the ability to see beyond their immediate problems. In life sh!t happens, the universe seems very chaotic but is actually extremely ordered. Everything happens for a reason but those reasons are so complicated and buried that to anyone looking it seems they have no control. You ~always~ have control in your life, but only if your believe in your ability to control your own destiny. Your mother is poor, your father left before you were born, you life in a poor neighborhood, your school sucks, you still have control. Hit the books, read everything you can get your hands on, ignore the other kids doing stupid things. Learn as much as possible, including learning from other people's mistakes. If you study hard enough you can get into a decent college, learn a profitable trade, graduate and perform that trade. This may require you moving to a different location then your home, this may even require you to do something like teach English to kids in a different country while you look for a full time job. Life isn't fair and sh!t happens, people are faced with tough decisions everyday. Those decisions and the consequences of them will always be the responsibility of the person. To believe otherwise is to dis-empower yourself. And how exactly is that the "evil white mans" fault?
"but is made of a White elite that has no clue what’s really going on outside their own enclaves." Your racist colors are showing again, you could easily substitute that with
"but is made of a Black elite that has no clue what’s really going on outside their own enclaves.
And it would be just as true. If you try to argue this I will bring up a very good counter-argument that includes a real life example of a "black elite" church and their effect on the Agusta, GA area.
8:41 pm on January 6th, 2011 151
@Glans:
See comments #58 and 70.
11:55 pm on January 6th, 2011 152
[DELETED BY ADMIN: Personal Attack] – Like Chickenhead says above Kushibo often provides thoughtful opinions in his comments. There is a back story to this claim here that I recommend readers give Kushibo the benefit of the doubt on.
12:50 am on January 7th, 2011 153
#136 Kushibo, YOU said that. Not me. I simply pointed out the facts of the situation.
You are the one that PooHooed it, made lite of the fact, used that most favored word (of Liberals) "victim". To me, it is a situation. To you it is victimhood.
I don't look for victims. You do. I look for the reality of the situation. You look for a victim.
12:53 am on January 7th, 2011 154
I meant 146, just got up, no coffee yet.
1:18 am on January 7th, 2011 155
147 thru 152, Kushibo, you have been out-classed by Someotherguy.
He has been there. I can recognize our shaired "experiences". The only thing I recognize from you is Liberal rhetoric comprised of race-hate toward whites and class warfare. It's old and ignorant thought.
Another good example of success where lession can be learned: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
2:03 am on January 7th, 2011 156
[Off Topic- See Note Below]
3:03 am on January 7th, 2011 157
[OFF TOPIC: See Note Below]
6:49 am on January 7th, 2011 158
Wow.
I have an whole new outlook on how seriously I should take Kushibo's opinions…
…but it does not change anything when he speaks facts… as he frequntly does.
As wise readers, we should not confuse the two.
9:48 am on January 7th, 2011 159
kushibo 139, asks for a comparison. Click here:
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh122410.shtml
Start at the paragraph beginning "That said, Matthews did ask one important question".
That splendid blog refers to a "demographic breakdown" here:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf
Look at Table 5 on page 14, Average scores of U.S. 15-year-old students on combined reading literacy scale, by race/ethnicity: 2009
kushibo 139 also makes a very important point, which bears repetition: many blacks and hispanics are working hard and doing well. More power to them!
someotherguy 143, you're not by any chance talking about my main man Skip, are you? He, like Jesse Jackson, dresses well and lives well. Is that the cause of black academic underachievement?
kushibo 144 makes another interesting point. White folks see a lot of black folks, even very nice black folks, so they leave. More blacks come in, and the neighborhood resegregates. Just remember, the policies of empires centuries ago have no bearing on our racial problems today.
Retired GI 145, if black people sometimes feel that the rule of law is a conspiracy against them, I just don't know where in heck they could ever have got such a crazy idea.
someotherguy 147, you're right. Poor academic performance by black kids is Kushibo's fault. I always knew there was something about that guy I didn't like.
Sonagi 151 sends me back for a review of some lessons that I forget. Sonagi 58 proposes a common national curriculum. I like it. She says more than two dozen states have adopted it. I hope we'll get beyond four dozen soon. Sonagi 70 proposes higher pay for teachers, which is good, but she doesn't say how we'll fund it in these budget-stressed times.
KushiboBnora 152, thanks for the low-down on Kushibo. Is he a stinky poophead, or what?
Retired GI 154, you're not responsible for that error. You're the innocent victim of the coffee companies, who knowingly sell an addictive substance.
Anyhow, the cause of poor academic performance by black and brown kids remains beyond my comprehension. But the more important question remains: what do do?
1. More pay for their teachers. Even if their districts are poor and their schools are already underfunded.
2. The kids have to accept personal responsibility. If they insist on following role models, they must choose those models wisely.
More suggestions, please.
1:32 pm on January 7th, 2011 160
Even in stressed times, budgets involve choices. We can offer higher pay to attract and retain better teachers or we can keeping paying the same salaries.
Hispanic immigration patterns have changed in the last ten years. More families are moving to smaller cities and rural areas. Overall, I think this is a good thing. Our district has decent community and financial resources to provide quality isntruction for all students. A Hispanic family headed by a working couple has greater mobility than a black family headed by a single parent without stable employment.
1:45 pm on January 7th, 2011 161
Sadly, you are correct. Some mostly white communities are already getting a taste. The PA/OH border hometown of friend of mine is a wasteland of underemployed and unemployed alcoholics and druggies. In my community, substance abuse is an equal-opportunity homewrecker.
3:01 pm on January 7th, 2011 162
Sonagi, if not playing a subtle game, appears to be quite racist and eager to spread the same misinformation provided by the New York Times
Spending more money isn't the answer, as Finland spends less and has better test scores…
Throwing other people's money at problems (i.e., "liberalism") doesn't work. Sooner or later the money runs out and the rubes get wise.
4:34 pm on January 7th, 2011 163
Sonagi 160, is that your final answer? Poor districts, already struggling to maintain their schools, need to pay their teachers more? They'll just have to tax themselves more or cut other programs. Your district has decent resources, so you have what you need to do your job, and you're paid a fair salary (I hope.) What about those districts that don't have decent resources, which are the ones most likely to have low test scores?
setnaffa 162, what is the secret of Finnland's success? They have public schools and unionized teachers. That sounds like liberalism to me.
5:28 pm on January 7th, 2011 164
Glans,
Here is a good place to answer some of your questions.
http://www.openeducation.net/2008/03/10/several-l…
6:41 pm on January 7th, 2011 165
If you want to know what's happened to education in America, all you have to do is check out this lady's site. Do yourselves and your children a favor; download her ebook and read it.
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
7:28 pm on January 7th, 2011 166
ChickenHead 164, Thanks. I think I get it now.
1. Don't worry about rap and heavy metal. They're harmless.
2. Have a homogeneous population – no minorities!
3. Provide free higher education for all qualifying students.
Oh, wait a minute. Point 2 prevents us from solving our problem, poor performance by minorities. And remember, our white and Asian kids have world-class test scores. They don't need Findlandization, and minorities can't benefit from it. Gosh darn it, I thought you had something there.
Maybe when Sonagi gets back, she'll have more ideas.
7:31 pm on January 7th, 2011 167
Glen 165, does she explain why our white and Asian kids perform at world-class levels? Why our black and brown kids are struggling? Does she then explain how to raise minority scholastic performance?
8:09 pm on January 7th, 2011 168
Glans,
As you frequently do, you took away the wrong message from something you read.
You are either a bit dense… or one hell of an elegant troll.
8:32 pm on January 7th, 2011 169
I have some questions which I haven't found a good answers for.
All the demographic data has separate categories for White Hispanics and Non-White Hispanics. Do Hispanics have a problem answering that question on forms? As far as education prospects, does it matter whether a person is a white Hispanic or brown Hispanic?
9:29 pm on January 7th, 2011 170
Gee ChickenHead 168, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Are we friends now?
JoeC 169, the concept of race is very artificial and always has to be taken with a grain of salt. On the census form, where it asked Planet of Origin, I looked for Uranus, but I couldn't find it. But your question is good. I would guess that white hispanics have better prospects than non-white, but I don't know of any evidence.
12:07 am on January 8th, 2011 171
If you were expecting a cheap and easily implemented solution, I'm sorry to disappoint you. Your statement assumes that districts with many poor students have small budgets. Be careful about that assumption. School funding comes not only from local taxes but also state and federal revenues. The state of Virginia has a school funding formula that is weighted in favor of schools with large numbers of poor students. Likewise, the federal government offers grants and many special programs for Title I schools with more than 60% of students on free and reduced lunch. Additional funding may come from a budget other than education. Our school has 5 aides whose salaries are paid for by Medicaid because they provide services to physically disabled and emotionally disturbed students.
It's not so much that our district is rich; it isn't. It's that we don't have large numbers of needy students who strain our resources and we do get some extra funding for our neediest. I think our district also spends wisely by focusing on quality professional development. They pay $150 to send me to a one-day workshop, and I get so many great ideas to use with all my students for years.
I had a friend who taught for DC public schools back in the 90s. She said the accounting office was notorious for making payroll mistakes. I don't believe that level of incompetence would be tolerated in our district.
7:11 am on January 8th, 2011 172
Sonagi 171, you've dashed my hopes for a cheap and easily implemented solution. Financial resources are necessary but not sufficient. We can help needy students, but not if there are too many of them. The education bureacracy has to be competent.
Do underperforming minority kids reflect social inequity? I know it's wrong to look for the cause in historical colonial empires, but do school problems come from injustice here and now?
The answer to GI Korea's question, "Are schools to blame?" seems to be, "No." The schools are doing darned good work wherever circumstances allow.
12:16 pm on January 9th, 2011 173
You can throw all the money you want at the problem, it won't go away. You can dump millions into setting up science / computer labs and bump up the salaries of all the teachers, but none of those will fix the problem with the students not wanting to learn. Get the students to desire to educate themselves, and then the money you do spend will have greater value. The current educational problem isn't one of money its one of culture.
2:55 am on January 15th, 2011 174
Glans,
"Why our black and brown kids are struggling?"
There is a hint of the problem at Frayser High School.
Twenty percent of the girls in the school are pregnant.
Guess the racial demographics.
Enrollment by Race/Ethnicity in FRAYSER HIGH SCHOOL
•White: 27
•Black: 1191
•Asian: 2
•Hispanic: 1
•Native American: 0
•Unknown: 0
Something is very broken and self-destructive in some black American sub-cultures… and, instead of a national message saying this is exactly the wrong way to live life, out-of touch reporters, citizens, politicians and administrators all look for someone to blame…
…someone to blame that doesn't make them look like a racist in any way.
And, they can't be blamed for being out of touch on this. The goals and values demonstrated by the students in this school are completely alien to anyone who has ever dreamed of realistic success in life.
I don't know if this way of thinking has anything to do with slavery 5 generations ago… especially since immigrants who want to assimilate seem to fully do so after 3 generations… but there might be something to consider here, Glans.
7:31 am on January 15th, 2011 175
I saw that news item last night, CH. In the story I read online, one pregnant girl blamed her high school, saying she should have had more sex ed. As a teacher in a fairly conservative district that offers a sex ed program starting in upper elementary school, I was incredulous that a large urban district would neglect something so important, so I visited the website for Memphis schools to get info about their sex ed program. They have a large department devoted to all aspects of student health, including sex ed, and the district has collaborative partnerships with local health clinics. Minors in Tennessee can get birth control without parental consent. Parents can elect for their children to opt out of school sex ed, but very few in my conservantive district do. These pregnant girls at Frayser High School had knowledge of and access to birth control yet still got pregnant. In working class and poor communities, there is respect and higher status accorded to both parents when at least one is a teenager. This value cuts across racial lines. White girls in Gloucester earned 15 minutes of fame for their high school when a rash of pregnancies resulted from a pregnancy pact. Pregnancy is not self-destructive behavior in the short-term for poor teens and young adults. They are showered with positive attention from their peers and from caring adults in the family and at school. The girls get spending power from TANF and food stamps that may be supplemented with cash and gifts from the baby daddies, who enjoy bragging rights among their classmates and friends. I wonder what effect replacing cash payments and food stamps with rations of diapers and mac and cheese would have on the appeal of pregnancy for working-class and poor teens.
7:42 am on January 15th, 2011 176
BTW, Memphis schools has a very hard time attracting and retaining teachers. Before the recession, they used to bombard teacher job boards and listservs with help wanted ads. They were so desperate they would take applicants without licenses as long as the applicants agreed to complete alternative licensure programs. Memphis schools pay well relative to the cost of living, but the horribly high violent crime rate plus the humid summers scared me off from applying. Crime rates are a big deterrent to teachers seeking work in big city schools. Staff have two choices: live nearby in an unsafe neighborhood or suffer a long-distance urban commute. I myself would not live in some of the neighborhoods served by my school.
9:16 am on January 15th, 2011 177
Why is socially destructive behavior more common among blacks? I don't know, but I understand now, past injustice didn't cause it. Kindergartners and first graders need to accept responsibility for their own conduct. When they reach their teen years, they'll be ready for whatever comes their way, and those test scores will soar.
The situation of hispanics is a little different. They have less teen-age pregnancy, so I don't know what their problem is. (Certainly not the Spanish empire!) But the solution is the same. Five, six, seven year old kids need to lay the foundation for their own success. Then they'll become responsible, ambitious teenagers and productive adults.
10:12 am on January 15th, 2011 178
#176 Sonagi, there was a likely still is a shortage of Police in Memphis. Some Mississippi Police showed interest in working for Memphis (I don't know why), But the Memphis city counsel doesn't allow and would not change the rule for Police living in the city. The quote was something like: "we don't want that kind of attitude in Memphis".
So the Memphis city counsel must like there city the way it is. Corrupt and crime ridden. With a youth culture that takes pride in getting food stamps and welfare.
When I was a Kid, I wanted to live in Memphis. Now, I will not go to the dentist without my pistol and two mags. ( my dentist has a 45 cal in an ankle holster)
I don't know your location but try http://www.rock103.com in the morning. 6am to 10am. is a more or less talk session with "bad dog and Ric in the morning. Local issues. Good 60s to 80s rock.
Memphis is a chit hole these days. The only thing good about Memphis is Fed Ex.
It wasn't that way in the 70s > 80s. I came back from Korea in 92 and had major culture shock. Bars on all the windows.
It was a better place when we had problems with too many strip clubs, Like there is a problem with strip bars
But what do you expect when the Mayor has been busted for coke more than once and other troubles. But the people still reelect him over and over.
As always, I blame Political Correctness, and keep a pistol on me.
If all Major cities are like Memphis, I think the Chinese could do a better job. Just saying.
10:24 am on January 15th, 2011 179
#177 Glans, because blacks have one thing that no other so-called minority has. They have been told by their leaders that they are victims. They have been told by their leaders that they are owed something. They have been told by their leaders that they will be taken care of. They have been told by their leaders that they cannot succeed. That the Man will always hold them down. They have been told to except the handouts as their due. This is what their leaders have told them and it is easy to believe, so they do.
Getting knocked-up is just another way for them to get their due. Free money, just have sex.
They know sex = baby = money. They are not going to succeed anyway. That is what there leaders have said. AND, of course, it is someone else's fault, not theirs.
MLK would cry to see what has happened to his dream. Memphis is not what he had in mind.
Generations have been lost and no end in sight.
10:45 am on January 15th, 2011 180
The victimhood complex is creeping in among Hispanic students, especially gang members and wannabes. A former student of mine who now sports a rosary around his neck in middle school accused his racially mixed Puerto Rican teacher of racism when she addressed him about inappropriate behavior. "You're racist against me because I'm Latino!" Other classmates had to clue him in that Puerto Ricans are Latinos, too. Practice makes perfect, and eventually he'll become skilled at playing the race card. What he does not realize is that thinking racist teachers are against him causes no actual harm to the teachers he has been alienated from due to the influence of older students and siblings. He is only hurting himself by attributing his lack of success to racism rather than his own choices, and that makes me sad. He was cheerful and respectful in elementary school, loved by teachers and classmates.
10:59 am on January 15th, 2011 181
Retired GI 179, where did black leaders get all those weird ideas? Why do young blacks believe such baloney?
Sonagi 180, I thought I had the answer, but I see I've fallen short again. Even if Latino six-year-olds begin life responsibilty, something gets to them in their adolescence.
Maybe there is no answer. We're just stuck with lower average performance by blacks and browns. We can thank our lucky stars for the noble exceptions.
1:43 pm on January 15th, 2011 182
#181 Glans, it keeps the so called leaders in power to have their Flock believe such drivel.
They believe it because it is easy. After all, you seemed to think it was because of events from the 1860s.
Allen West.
9:58 pm on January 17th, 2011 183
Joanne Barkan, writing in Dissent, says the Gates, Broad and Walton foundations push reforms that don't work. and then:
"To justify their campaign, ed reformers repeat, mantra-like, that U.S. students are trailing far behind their peers in other nations, that U.S. public schools are failing. The claims are specious. Two of the three major international tests—the Progress in International Reading Literacy Study and the Trends in International Math and Science Study—break down student scores according to the poverty rate in each school. The tests are given every five years. The most recent results (2006) showed the following: students in U.S. schools where the poverty rate was less than 10 percent ranked first in reading, first in science, and third in math. When the poverty rate was 10 percent to 25 percent, U.S. students still ranked first in reading and science. But as the poverty rate rose still higher, students ranked lower and lower. Twenty percent of all U.S. schools have poverty rates over 75 percent. The average ranking of American students reflects this. The problem is not public schools; it is poverty. And as dozens of studies have shown, the gap in cognitive, physical, and social development between children in poverty and middle-class children is set by age three."
Read it here.
11:25 pm on January 17th, 2011 184
Great find, Glans. I quibble only with the wording of the conclusion. Since the human brain doesn't fully mature until the age of 15 or so, I am doubtful that early gaps cannot be narrowed with effective preschool and early school education. Even before the recession, the percentage of US children growing up in poverty has been rising. Poor women in the US have higher fertility rates. As we saw from the Memphis high school pregnancy rate of 20% among girls, knowledge of and access to birth control do not appear to explain why poor women and girls have more children despite having fewer resources to care for them.
6:34 pm on January 24th, 2011 185
Michelle Rhee is quoted by Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler:
"The past year was a sobering one for American educators, as we learned that the United States is falling farther behind in international student rankings. To his credit, President Obama put forward a plan for change that hit the mark, a brilliant stroke that even the 'abolish the Department of Education' crowd had to admire."
But then he casts doubt on her comment:
"In reading literacy: There was no measurable difference between the average score of U.S. students in reading literacy in 2000, the last time in which reading literacy was the major domain assessed in PISA, and 2009, or between 2003 and 2009. There also were no measurable differences between the U.S. average score and the OECD average score in 2000 or in 2009.
In mathematics literacy: The U.S. average score in mathematics literacy in 2009 was higher than the U.S. average in 2006 but not measurably different from the U.S. average in 2003, the earliest time point to which PISA 2009 performance can be compared in mathematics literacy.
In science literacy: The U.S. average score in science literacy in 2009 was higher than the U.S. average in 2006, the only time point to which PISA 2009 performance can be compared in science literacy."
He also discusses his central topic, the putrid media. His example today is Dana Milbank trying not to obsess on Sarah Palin.
Click here.
8:58 am on January 25th, 2011 186
Thank you for the link, Glans.
3:37 pm on February 8th, 2011 187
Most New York students are not college-ready. In new York City, 23% of students graduated ready for college or careers in 2009. The figure for Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, and Yonkers was even lower: 17%. For wealthier districts across the state, it's 72%. How about charter schools? Bad news: 10%.
Read Sharon Otterman's story story.
5:36 pm on February 14th, 2011 188
American kids' school performance is often said to be declining, but that's not true. You can read the Daily Howler or you can go directly to Jay Mathews. If you go to the Howler, you get a bonus: Michelle Rhee's claims of great success as a teacher are baloney.
8:42 pm on February 14th, 2011 189
Glans, the first link is interesting but is mediocre what we should be striving for? Also if US students have always scored poorly than doesn't that just prove that money isn't the problem considering the amount of money invested in education over the years?
Also the Washington Post link proves nothing against Michelle Rhee. The overall test scores at her school did go up quite a bit, but was not broken down by class. The scores she put on her resume came from her principal who the journalist was not able to contact to verify.
10:26 pm on February 14th, 2011 190
You can pour as much money as you want. But when you're dumb and you lack a hard work ethic, no amount of money will change that.
No wonder America is bankrupt. 
4:37 am on February 15th, 2011 191
#190, We just didn't learn from our mistakes… Or anyone else's either…
Stop making me agree with you!!
9:31 am on February 15th, 2011 192
#191 "Stop making me agree with you!"
Yea, it does suck when Tom is correct.
But in #190 Tom is very much on target.
1:54 pm on February 15th, 2011 193
GI Korea 189, remember, our mediocre score includes our whole population. When you count only whites and Asians, we're world class. And no, mediocre isn't what we should be striving for! We should be working to improve the performance of the marginal groups.
2:16 pm on February 15th, 2011 194
Easy.
Instead of trying to prepare all students for success, prepare some for failure.
Instead of assuring failed students they will be taken care of through "entitlements", as the generation before them, let them know a job will be waiting for them…
…one of those jobs "Americans won't do".
A lot of problems will resolve themselves pretty quickly.
2:22 pm on February 15th, 2011 195
@193,
And how do you go about doing that hmm? How do you force people to learn without resorting to physical punishment / torture? If someone doesn't want to learn, then they won't learn no matter what you do about it. If that human being hasn't made it a personal goal to become successful then they will never be successful. If their definition of success is becoming a gang member, selling drugs and / or having lots of unprotected sex, then is it no wonder that those youths achieve that?
Everyone needs to stop for a moment and drop all the political rhetoric and agenda's. This is our youth we're talking about, not some figures on a piece of paper or a chart being used to determine someone's salary raise. These are living breathing humans, not machines or statistics. Find a way to change their motivations and goals, then you will have solved the problem with encouraging them to achieve success. In east Asia success is not quietly encouraged, its loudly demanded. In this same way we must define success to our children not as some "white . asian thing" but as something to be achieved by all. Then we demand it from our children, and the -we- is parents first, teachers second, then everybody else.
Wearing a suit and tie while carrying a briefcase to work shouldn't be a "white / asian" idea / concept, it should apply equally to latino and blacks. Adults shouldn't be scoffing or making off handed comments about someone who wears suits and ties to work every day, they should be demonstrating them as role models for the children to take after. I welcome the day with there are more black / latino engineers, doctors, professors, physicists, chemists, and architects. They won't get there with a victim mentality or lower standards, if anything those things will prevent success from happening in the first place.
9:33 pm on February 15th, 2011 196
More about Michelle. Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler discussed the Rhee story today.
I recommend http://www.dailyhowler.com/ for its discussions of three big topics:
1. Mainstream journalists are foolish and contemptible.
2. Leading liberals are inadequate or even worthless.
3. We’re neglecting the education of minority kids.
11:34 am on February 19th, 2011 197
Michelle Rhee demolished. Bob Somerby shows that her claims of spectacular success during her three-year teaching career don't add up. Read about it at the Daily Howler.
Thu 17 Feb
Fri 18 Feb
12:14 pm on February 19th, 2011 198
Thank you, Glans, for those great links. As an experienced teacher of reading and math to low-performing children, I was incredulous at how Rhee's unsubstantiated heroic claims were given little scrutiny.
"I wouldn't say I was a great teacher. I've seen great. I worked hard," says Rhee.
What a load of ignorant rubbish from someone who played teacher for three years. I've seen teachers who work very hard but do not have the results to show for it because they're not highly competent. Teaching is an art and a science. Passion and brilliance distinguish outstanding teachers from their colleagues, but all competent teachers attained competency through professional development, learning and implementing concepts and skills in collaboration with colleagues.
Would you want to be operated on by a surgeon who wasn't great but worked hard? Would you want your car repaired by a mechanic who wasn't great but worked hard? Would you want to be defended in court by a lawyer who wasn't great but worked hard? REAL teachers KNOW that teaching is a highly skilled occupation.
5:41 pm on February 19th, 2011 199
I love to have my balls get licked by a Dane who wasn't great and worked hard.
10:50 am on February 21st, 2011 200
Michelle Rhee's baloney, one more time. Plus two bonus points: the mainstream media are crud and liberals are crud. Bob Somerby summarizes it for you.
Mon 21 Feb
The tragedy remains: black and hispanic kids, on avarage, are still lagging academically.
11:30 am on February 21st, 2011 201
Yes, CH, I did chuckle at your pun, and thanks, Glans, for the new link. I have added the Daily Howler to my reading list.
quoted from the DH post:
"Presumably, they’re just alike on the day they’re born—but they aren’t just alike by the time they hit school, or by the time they reach fourth grade."
The inequality starts in the womb with the mother's diet, substance abuse, and health markers before and during pregnancy. WIC and SNAP, intended to provide nutritional support to poor mothers and children, are really indirect supplements to food manufacturers as most allowed items are processed foods that are generally nutrient-sparse. Until a few years ago, fresh produce was not allowed under WIC and presently is limited to $6. Infant formula is 45% corn syrup solids by weight. Our dietary habits and food policies are an overlooked factor in student achievement.
12:21 pm on February 21st, 2011 202
Sonagi 201, there's no substitute for a mother's milk.
1:18 pm on February 21st, 2011 203
Like Sonagi I will have to continue reading the Daily Howler as well. I would like to hear more of a response from Rhee on the claims she lied about the test scores, but it appears she is done as a national education reformer figure with this and the Kevin Johnson sex scandal hanging over her.
So when can we expect Sonagi to become a national education reform figure?
2:20 pm on February 21st, 2011 204
The Daily Howler is the finest blog I know of for its three topics (the media, the liberal elite, education of the poor). Bob Somerby only updates it once each weekday, and there are no comments, so it's not too hard to keep up with. I visit it every day, just like the ROK Drop.
Sonagi's practical experience would be very valuable for education reform.
2:37 pm on February 21st, 2011 205
I blame my ex-wife!!! She is single handedly bringing the IQ of America down.
7:00 pm on February 21st, 2011 206
Be careful!
To some, even advocating improved child nutrition is now considered a bad thing.
9:39 am on February 22nd, 2011 207
Thanks for the flattery, but unlike Michelle Rhee, I don't think I've got all the answers after just a few years of public school teaching. I am content to improve my skills by staying in the classroom.
@GI:
Rhee has already commented on the controversy:
"If I were to put my resume forward again, would I say 'significant' gains?" Rhee said. "Absolutely."
She has acknowledged only that she would change the wording on her resume. She has not acknowledged any deliberate misrepresentation. Why would she? If she was dishonest enough to make up a fantastical claim and clever enough to talk her way into the top job in DC schools in spite of having only three years of public school teaching experience, then why would anyone expect her to own up to allegations that can only be inferred and not proven directly?
Would you as a soldier take direction from an appointed general with only three years as an enlistee? Suppose that general got his stars by lying about achievements on the battlefield and sucking up to politicians? Why expect us teachers to take direction from someone who not only has so little actual teaching experience but also a demonstrated lack of professional integrity?
12:15 pm on February 22nd, 2011 208
Sonagi I would just like to see something more substantive from her in response. You would think news organization would be flocking to interview her. If she is denying interviews and keeping quiet I think that proves she intentionally embellished her teaching record no matter what her principal told her.
I think the bigger story from all of this is how bad the mainstream media is to have not caught on to this.
12:39 pm on February 22nd, 2011 209
I thought my main man Bob Somerby was through with Michelle Rhee, but he had at her one more time. He related her story to his other big topics, malfeasance by the press corps and indifference by the liberal elite.
Tue 22 Feb
11:20 am on February 23rd, 2011 210
@GI:
Sorry I misinterpreted your earlier comment as wanting to give Rhee the benefit of the doubt rather than disappointment in her.
She's founded some new PAC called Students First, which aims to attract one million members and $1 billion in funding. I think she'll meet the funding goal since she still has powerful backers but not the membership goal because of her tarnished reputation. When her backers realize her diminished influence among educators, they'll move their money to other leaders.
2:46 pm on March 6th, 2011 211
Children of college graduates score about one standard deviation above the mean. Kevin Drum links to an essay by James Heckman.
3:41 pm on March 6th, 2011 212
Sonagi,
Take a look and see what percentage you agree with.
It kinda sounds like YOU wrote it.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/26/950079/-…
2:53 pm on March 15th, 2011 213
Diane Savitch discussed the public schools with Jon Stewart. The problem is not bad teachers but poverty. Here's a comment by Bob Somerby at the Daily Howler. He links to Valerie Strauss' The Answer Sheet from which you can see the interview for yourself.
8:23 am on March 19th, 2011 214
Liberals won't tell the truth, so the New York Post does.
Somerby demolishes Gates.
Or go directly to The Anser Sheet.
1:48 am on March 20th, 2011 215
@CH:
Thanks for the link That teacher hit the bullseye in communicating how the job of teaching has changed. Everyone interested in the issue of US public K-12 education should read that essay.
@Glans:
Ravitch is correct in identifying exponentially higher poverty rates among American children compared to Finnish children as the primary reason for the gap in test scores. We need to be careful, however, in making assumptions about children and families whose reported incomes classify them as poor.
Very few children in my Title I school are homeless and probably no child goes hungry because of a lack of money although some children don't eat well because they have to fix their own meals since Mom is still in bed nursing a hangover or Dad is spending the weekend with one of his girlfriends.
The poor have much higher fertility rates and this isn't necessarily because of limited access to family planning resources. Hispanics comprise a majority of both legal and illegal immigrants, and they tend to have a lot of children as a matter of choice. Family planning resources ARE available for Spanish-speaking women without health insurance, and some moms at my school apparently make use of these resources, judging by the fact that they have only one or two children. Last year an estimated 8% of all childbirths in the US were to women in the country illegally. Illegal immigrants tend to look poor on paper because they are working illegally in mostly low-wage jobs. I say "look poor on paper" because much of their income is paid in cash, untaxed and unreported. I browse the racks at local clothing stores once a month, and I always see lots of Spanish-speaking women, usually with children in tow. I do not believe these moms are spending the rent or the grocery money on a new dress. I do not believe these families are poor although their tax returns filed with ITINs imply otherwise.
There are stark behavioral differences between low SES immigrants and their native-born counterparts. Immigrant households tend to be headed by married couples with an employed father and industrious mother either taking care of her own and others' children or working outside the home, also. Poor native-born parents are mostly single or divorced and often have a history of substance abuse. Some children are being raised by their grandparents because neither biological parent is fit or willing to care for them. Much of poverty in the US is behavioral, not purely circumstantial, and we need to consider carefully about how to address the issue of multigenerational poverty and the self-defeating behaviors that perpetuate it.
8:01 am on March 20th, 2011 216
Sonagi 215, as so often, you've provided the insights that come only from experience. But be careful with that multigenerational stuff. It might take you back to the Spanish and British colonial empires.
11:27 am on March 21st, 2011 217
Consertives don't correct Bill Gates' false or misleading statements about education. But liberals don't either. The indefatigable Bob Somerby stays on the case.
12:14 pm on March 21st, 2011 218
Blaming it on "poverty" is a statist-inspired bovine scatology… It's all about _culture at home_ and the motivation folks receive… I saw a wide variety of "rich" and "poor" and positive parental involvement (asking about schoolwork, helping, involved with teachers, etc.) had a much greater effect than disposable income…
Too money enables a lot of negatives, too (look at Paris Hilton, for example)… And working to earn the funds for your own (higher) education makes one cherish it more than just being handed a check…
3:32 pm on March 21st, 2011 219
Setnaffa,
I also noticed that "poor" people are mostly poor due to poor habits.
But it is easier to blame their personal failures on being "poor" as it is an easier problem to tax and throw money at…
…with the perpetual non-results one would expect when only trying to treat symptoms.
Constructive behavior modification is simply met with apathy or screams of "my rights".
"Free" money should provide food, shelter, medical care, education, and pathways away from dependence… but it should require painful trade-offs… communal living, no private property, etc., to encourage success.
At this time, it is easier, and more profitable, to milk the system for free money than work for it.
Education plays no part in milking the system. Who needs it?
11:48 pm on March 21st, 2011 220
@ 218/219
Mostly agree with you guys.
"“Free” money should provide food, shelter, medical care, education, and pathways away from dependence… but it should require painful trade-offs… communal living, no private property, etc., to encourage success."
This is exactly how I see social welfare working. Although I'm a libertarian at heart I do support social support systems, provided their enforced in a system designed in such a way that the recipient is encouraged to get off them ASAP. In my parents days it was considered humiliating to be on government welfare, as it is in many Asian countries unless you have a valid handicap. The left and all the progressives have made it so socially acceptable to be on welfare that people no longer feel ashamed to be there and thus there is little motivating factor to ~not~ be on welfare. I'm all for communal living arrangements, enforced drug testing / medical evaluations and enforced vocational training. Not high tech training either, just the basic requirements for labor level jobs (carpentry / construction / ect..). Assign them to community improvement projects and other public works. At any time they are free to walk away, in fact their actually encouraged to get on with their lives and lead an independent life. There is ~always~ something that needs to be cleaned / repaired or otherwise worked on in communities, even if its something as simple as a trash cleanup over the entire city on a Saturday. We're paying people money to sit on their couch and watch TV, that is such a waste of potential man power.
10:20 am on March 22nd, 2011 221
Poverty is indeed a factor in lower achievement:
1. Less language development – the average kindergarten child from a poverty home has about half the vocabulary of a middle-class child. Poor children are less likely to have been read books, so they have no prerequisite print concepts needed to learn to read.
2. Less background knowledge related to academic subjects. In social studies especially, the voacbulary and concepts are more abstract than in science or math, subjects in which many terms can be communicated visually or experienced.
3. Gaps in learning due to transience. Poor children are more likely to move around from school to school Unlike most other industrialized countries, the US has no national curriculum although a voluntary national curriculum called the Common Core has been adopted by 34 states.
11:02 am on March 22nd, 2011 222
Today's howler is the propaganda of NBC and Jenna Hager.
9:38 pm on March 24th, 2011 223
Diane Ravitch takes a turn in Bob Somerby's spotlight.
12:56 am on March 27th, 2011 224
Thanks for the links, Glans. So proud to call myself a VA teacher. I got interested in the NAEP website and had a look around. The comparative state statistics are meaningless because they are not comparing results on a single test but results from each state's test. In addition to developing state-specific achievement tests with ETS, Pearson, or another company, each state sets its own passing scores. There have been accusations that some states have pressured their test makers to lower the passing score cutoffs. It is possible, for example, to get only 60% of the questions right and still pass.
Complicating matters further is the existence of alternative assessments for SPED students with certain accommodations and for English Language Learners with proficiency below a certain level. Last year 20% of VA reading and math scores came from alternative performance assessment portfolios completed by SPED and ELL students. Performance assessments are so qualitatively different from standarized tests that the scores should not be lumped together, but they are for NCLB purposes and in the NAEP reports.
Standardized assessments are part of the voluntary Common Core curriculum adopted by many states. The use of single nationwide assessments of reading and math is long overdue. It'll be interesting to see how states compare when their students all take the same tests.
5:01 am on March 27th, 2011 225
Anyone interested in this thread should read the Howler from 3/25, including Fictitions (sic) from Wisconsin Democrats.
8:58 am on March 28th, 2011 226
DC test scores increased under Michelle Rhee's chancellorship, but did they really?
H/t to Kevin Drum.
And a bounus: Somerby's epilogue.
9:27 pm on March 28th, 2011 227
Glans, thanks for continuing to share the links. It seems like a pretty persuasive argument that the DC schools were cheating on the standardized tests. It will be interesting to see if the investigators get anyone to admit to cheating or not.
7:20 am on March 29th, 2011 228
I am grateful that my district expects its teachers to be honest and follow the rules. This expectation is repeated at every training related to testing. A few years ago, one teacher was fired after students reported that she had helped them choose the correct answers.
Nearly all of our annual tests are done online, and the testing company monitors response patterns like time spent on each question and answer changes.
There is so much misinformation and disinformation being spread by the MSM, and since few independent or swing voters read Mother Jones and hardly anyone reads the Daily Howler,
When Obama took office and the Democrats got control of Congress in 2009, I was very hopeful that NCLB would be revised to make it a more effective tool in raising achievement for all through accountability. Among the many absurd requirements:
1. All children who have been in the US at least 12 months must take the state tests, and their scores count. This year we enrolled several students from El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala. These students arrived in the US in the last two years with zero English and very limited formal education in their native countries. One 5th grade girl spent several months at a special group home for unaccompanied children in Texas before reuniting with her family here. Unaccompanied children are children who either cross the border on their own or are abandoned by smugglers after crossing. At the beginning of the school year, this girl had no English and 1st grade level literacy in Spanish. NCLB requires her to take the annual tests, and her scores count. Some districts like Arlington have quite a few kids like her, and these kids' scores are counted in 2-3 different NCLB subgroups: Hispanic, LEP, and low SES. If any of those subgroups don't meet the minimum passing percentage, the school doesn't make AYP and a chain of negative consequences kicks in. I thought for sure this absurd requirement would be one of the first to get the hatchet, but it's still in place.
2. Raising minimum passing scores each year until they reach 100% in 2013. Yes, that's right; in the 2001 NCLB, ALL students would have been required to show grade level proficiency through passing test scores. If you build it, they will come, and if you mandate it, it will happen! The passing tragectory has been slowed. This year, minimum passing scores for math and reading range in the low 80s.
Among the many and varied reasons why few schools will ever reach 100% passing is that only teachers and schools are held accountable, not students, except at the high school level, where students must pass the tests to get course credits and to graduate. High school students are allowed to retake repeatedly. One senior took a test 12 times before passing. If an elementary or middle school student decides to quit trying after question 22 out of 60 and randomly guesses most of the rest, who gets the blame when he doesn't pass? In Korea and China, a student who performs poorly on a test will almost certainly face consequences at home, including loss of play and recreation time.
2:49 pm on March 29th, 2011 229
More about the DC schools. The NY Times and the Washington Post wouldn't touch the story, so it was left to USA Today.
As Sonagi 228 notes, "There is so much misinformation and disinformation being spread by the MSM, and … few independent or swing voters read Mother Jones and hardly anyone reads the Daily Howler." I began visiting the Howler years ago, when no-one else would call baloney on the insane attacks against the Clintons and Al Gore. Then I noticed that Bob Somerby was obsessed by something else – the education of black adn brown kids. He said the media and the liberals had dropped that subject. I was shocked and incredulous, but over time I saw that it was true. Clinton and Obama are no better than Bush in this area. Leading liberals are just as useless here as they are when it's time to rebut conservative and mainstream attacks on progressive causes and personalities. So I recommend Somerby's Daily Howler to anyone who wants to know what the heck is going on.
3:48 pm on March 29th, 2011 230
Oh, how cute!
They carry their attitude and behavior into graduate school, too.
http://chronicle.com/article/Students-Should-Chec…
BTW…
GI Korea, there is a script on some of your pages, including this one, which loads all the comments and then clear them just as the page fully loads.
This happens with Firefox and Android.
It isn't any of the ad links but it is something coming from rockdrop.com itself.
The quick solution is hitting stop just as it loads but before it clears.
The better solution is blocking all scripts.
But you might want to identify and fix it.
Did anybody else notice this? Of course you did… but, like me, you didn't say anything for 3 months.
3:59 pm on March 29th, 2011 231
ChickenHead 230, I noticed the clearing of comments, but I assumed GI Korea intended his blog to work that way. I'm glad you've raised the question.
4:07 pm on March 29th, 2011 232
CH, I brought it up a few months ago either on the blog or in a private email. GI Korea was aware of it but may not know how to fix it. He just said that when it happens just click the main link for that post instead of a comments link and all will appear. That advice has worked for me so far, but it would be nice if it could be fixed.
5:19 pm on March 29th, 2011 233
Oh. Good. It works.
Actually, I was just testing to see if the script that attempts to keep Glans and Kushibo from posting was actually working.
Their posts have become annoying dilutions to the wisdom of Tom and are little more than a distraction.
Now it can be extended to all threads and expanded to include other non-Tom posters.
3:52 pm on May 1st, 2011 234
‘The principal hailed the test-score gains as a “miracle” – evidence that disadvantaged students could overcome enormous challenges to realize their full potential.’
This Philadelphia Inqirer report by Kristen A. Graham and Dylan Purcell then gives a detailed description of outrageous cheating by school administators.
‘Ultimately, the teachers agreed, the students will suffer. “This is not a service to them,” one teacher said. “It’s hurting the kids. It’s not right.” ‘
H/t to http://www.eschatonblog.com
8:14 am on August 11th, 2011 235
I’m not sure it’s the schools. It can easily be tracked to the parents.
Eric Bloom
Why BecomeA Teacher
8:33 pm on August 22nd, 2011 236
Is further demolition necessary? Yes, and Bob Somerby leans on Michael Winerip to have another go at Michelle Rhee. She doesn’t answer when USA Today questions her improbable claims. Other news organizations and prominent citizens give her a pass, so Somerby dumps on them, too. In the second half of today’s Howler, Somerby catches Arne Duncan in an unfair attack on Texas education; then he pivots to a discussion of the emerging narrative of that state’s economic miracle. For details, click here.
2:58 pm on November 20th, 2011 237
Test scores are rising. Gene Lyons says, “Scores on the NAEP have trended steadily upward to where the most underprivileged African-American children do better in 8th grade reading and math today than white students did back when the measurements began in 1978.” Be very skeptical of education reforms, whether they’re pushed by Barak Obama, Arne Duncan, or Michelle Rhee.
5:37 pm on November 20th, 2011 238
I’m very surprised to learn that 25% of those that take the entrance exam fail it. Though I was pretty messed up in my youth and didn’t try hard in High School and, as a result, graduated unprepared for life, the Army entrance exam posed no real challenge for me. I’m wondering how many of the 25% dropped out of high school and didn’t complete their assigned courses. Its just hard for me to imagine failing that entrance exam unless a person cant read. I have run across an occasional illiterate person and they have been adults and, fortunately, very rare.
The Army represents a last hope or resort for many young people (in my case I felt it was the only way I could pay for a college level education) so I do feel for those who fail the entrance exam and I hope they are given an option to work on their skills and try again.