By Things are going from bad to worse in the earthquake stricken country.
An explosion at a nuclear power station Saturday destroyed a building housing the reactor amid fears that it was close to a disastrous meltdown after being hit by a powerful earthquake and tsunami.
Friday’s double disaster, which pulverized Japan’s northeastern coast, has left 574 people dead by official count, although local media reports said at least 1,300 people may have been killed.
Tokyo Power Electric Co., the utility that runs the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant, said four workers had suffered fractures and bruises and were being treated at a hospital. A nuclear expert said a meltdown may not pose widespread danger.
Footage on Japanese TV showed that the walls of the reactor’s building had crumbled, leaving only a skeletal metal frame standing. Puffs of smoke were spewing out of the plant in Fukushima, 20 miles (30 kilometers) from Iwaki.
“We are now trying to analyze what is behind the explosion,” said government spokesman Yukio Edano, stressing that people should quickly evacuate a six-mile (10-kilometer) radius. “We ask everyone to take action to secure safety.”
The trouble began at the plant’s Unit 1 after the massive 8.9-magnitude earthquake and the tsunami it spawned knocked out power there.- Associated Press
I don’t have much to add. Yesterday a talking head on CNN was playing down reports of radiation levels being 1,000 times higher than normal. Will he downplay this news too?
11:29 pm on March 11th, 2011 1
This is very very very bad.
12:40 am on March 12th, 2011 2
Despite the official denial that the reactor containment vessel was breached and nothing coming from the media, word on the street says that some citizens from the (increasingly expanding) evacuation area are showing signs of radiation exposure.
This is very, very, very, VERY bad.
1:11 am on March 12th, 2011 3
BBC have had a very unhelpful Prof. on high rotate saying hydro dams are worse. It quickly looks like this will make the tsunami secondary.
1:27 am on March 12th, 2011 4
People are focusing on the reactor to take their mind off the fact that there are over 1000 dead and many more are still missing (just read there are over 9000 people missing in one coastal town).
1:43 am on March 12th, 2011 5
No, Teadrinker…
People are focusing on the reactor because the dead cannot be brought back to life but a damaged reactor can still affect the living.
There will be time to morn the dead… but the current focus on the reactor shows that priorities are straight.
Once resolved, the next focus should be on short-term aid for the survivors. The next focus should be on cleaning and rebuilding.
The dead are, and should be, last in line.
6:14 am on March 12th, 2011 6
Chickenhead I agree with you for the most part. However you must remember that right now the living are not yet dead. There are countless people alive right now that are trapped under debris and are unable to move or get access to water. These people can be alive for days lying immobile until rescue comes.
6:42 am on March 12th, 2011 7
a listener,
I realized that step had been left out just as I hit send.
…and that is a very, very important step as those are people who cannot fend for themselves in any way.
Anyway,
Reuters is reporting:
"People who lived within the evacuation zone or showed signs of radiation exposure were separated from others seeking shelter."
…so it seems word is making it out that something is up.
The "small amount of radiation" the official story talks about isn't fitting with what seems to be happening…
…meaning people upwind shouldn't be showing signs of radiation exposure.
There is a lot of confusion and misinformation right now so the could all be a false alarm… or maybe it is much, much more serious than anyone wants to let on while they worry about finding and caring for survivors.
8:52 am on March 12th, 2011 8
#6,
Exactly. Normally we'd be sitting on the edges of our seats, wondering what's becoming of these people. Focusing on the reactor, which is a much more manageable problem (and therefore brings up fewer feelings of powerlessness), is part of your defense mechanism. I'm not judging, I'm just making an observation.
3:22 pm on March 12th, 2011 9
The whole situation makes me feel so small. I was planning a trip to japan with the family and wondered what would have happened with 3 little ones in hand if the water was coming at me like in this video. perspective is everything. http://inhalejesus.blogspot.com/2011/03/tsunamis-…
3:44 pm on March 12th, 2011 10
“People are focusing on the reactor because the dead cannot be brought back to life but a damaged reactor can still affect the living.”
Only? Sure, keep telling yourself that. Fact remains that it’s a distraction from reality, which is that there could be a hundred thousand dead in Japan.
9:07 pm on March 12th, 2011 11
"which is that there could be a hundred thousand dead in Japan"
So much for GI Korea's banter that they only had about 100 dead. Yeah right, try 10,000 dead in only one city, where half the residents are believed to be dead. Some estimates of the dead goes up to 200,000 dead, after all this damage is counted – which would make this disaster over three times the death toll of the China earthquake.
What do you say now GI Korea?
9:52 pm on March 12th, 2011 12
#11 What's your point? New information will come out as time goes by. Almost sounds like your happy that more are dead. Most of us were hoping for a Low death toll. You're more damaged than I thought tom.
11:30 pm on March 12th, 2011 13
@11 – I said a 100+ not 100 because that is what the media was reporting to have confirmed at the time and you know that. You are just trolling as usual. As Retired GI stated you sound almost gleeful that so many Japanese are dead.
11:42 pm on March 12th, 2011 14
LOL 100+, talk about underestimation..
I am not gleeful more Japanese are dead. I am gleeful to point out how wrong you were. If I'm trolling, then half the people here are as well, including the hill billy GI (I will call him that since there seems to a confusion between GI Korea and Retired GI).
2:02 am on March 13th, 2011 15
I don't know…
The circle of evacuation has just been expanded yet again.
Y'all do see the writing on the wall, don't you?
Every step has been a matter of wishful thinking… hoping for the best but being pretty sure the worst is just being put off.
…and the news isn't getting the full story… like the radiation exposure which still conflicts with the official story that just a small amount of material was released… with the wind blowing away from the people. The news isn't even asking these questions as there is so much else to report and those trying to solve problems need hope and encouragement rather than suspicion right now.
But that doesn't mean as responsible and self-sufficiency-striving individuals who care about ourselves and our families, we shouldn't be prepared in some way for a number of worst-case situations… especially when it is so cheap and easy to do.
If this blows, there is going to be a bit of a panic run on canned food/raman/bottled water in Korea… just out of principle.
So, for those of you living in Korea, and anywhere in Japan, it might be prudent to pick yourself up a box of raman and a couple cases of bottled water… or more.
If they get this all locked down, you aren't out anything. You can always eat it up over the next few months.
But if this turns to shyt, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
A couple hundred dollars worth of supplies will allow you to relax and regroup while others run around in panic.
If you benefit from this suggestion, you owe me a beer.
3:23 am on March 13th, 2011 16
Chickenhead I'm not sure what to believe on this issue. On the BBC radio they had some Russian nuclear scientist who was criticizing all the media coverage comparing this to Chernobyl. He was saying that he thinks that at the worse this would be like 3-Mile Island to where the impact will be within the nuclear power station. He was also saying the radiation that has so far been released is not enough to cause harm to people but it is still wise to have iodine available because that is what can prevent future cases of thyroid cancer.
What I am wondering which no one is asking, is why was the nuclear power plant built next to the ocean? All the reports I have read said the plant survived the earthquake just fine. It was when the tsunami came in that the back up generators went out. It just seems like common sense to me that you would not want a nuclear power plant in an area that could get hit with a tsunami when you have the option to build it farther from the ocean?
It makes me wonder if in the US we have nuclear power plants built along the West Coast that are vulnerable to a tsunami?
4:06 am on March 13th, 2011 17
The Japanese have a long history of opting to "save face" over doing the right thing; especially when it comes to disaster situations. Case in point is when JAL Flight 123 crashed in 1985:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Fligh…
United States Air Force controllers at Yokota Air Force base situated near the flight path of Flight 123 had been monitoring the distressed aircraft's calls for help. They maintained contact throughout the ordeal with Japanese flight control officials and made their landing strip available to the airplane. After losing track on radar, a U.S. Air Force C-130 from the 345 TAS was asked to search for the missing plane. The C-130 crew was the first to spot the crash site 20 minutes after impact, while it was still daylight. The crew radioed Yokota Air Base to alert them and directed an USAF Huey helicopter from Yokota to the crash site. Rescue teams were assembled in preparation to lower Marines down for rescues by helicopter tow line. The offers by American forces of help to guide Japanese forces immediately to the crash site and of rescue assistance were rejected by Japanese officials. Instead, Japanese government representatives ordered the U.S. crew to keep away from the crash site and return to Yokota Air Base, stating the Japan Self-Defense Forces (JSDF) were going to handle the entire rescue alone.
Although a JSDF helicopter eventually spotted the wreck during the night, poor visibility and the difficult mountainous terrain prevented it from landing at the site. The pilot of the JSDF helicopter reported from the air that there were no signs of survivors. Based on this report, JSDF ground personnel did not set out to the actual site the night of the crash. Instead, they were dispatched to spend the night at a makeshift village erecting tents, constructing helicopter landing ramps and in other preparations, all some 63 kilometers from the wreck. JSDF did not set out for the actual crash site until the following morning. Medical staff later found a number of passengers' bodies whose injuries indicated that they had survived the crash only to die from shock or exposure overnight in the mountains while awaiting rescue. One doctor said "If the discovery had come ten hours earlier, we could have found more survivors."
Yumi Ochiai, one of the four survivors out of 524 passengers and crew, recounted from her hospital bed that she recalled bright lights and the sound of helicopter rotors shortly after she awoke amid the wreckage, and while she could hear screaming and moaning from other survivors, these sounds gradually died away during the night.
4:13 am on March 13th, 2011 18
"Chickenhead I’m not sure what to believe on this issue."
Hmmmm…
They say no big deal. They say the worst case is just an internal problem with little danger to the public…
…then they keep evacuating a larger and larger area while checking people for radiation.
Uh-huh.
They wouldn't be creating needless refugees and allocating much-needed manpower into this if there wasn't a serious potential problem… a problem which seems to be escalating to the point they are moving resources away from other very real and pressing needs created by the quake and tsunami.
Further, Japan is pumping seawater into a reactor to cool it. This is a big-boy decision. Things have gotten so bad they have written the reactor(s) off. Now they are just trying to keep it (them) from melting down.
As I understand the situation, if this doesn't work the way they hope, we get a big, wet explosion of steam and highly radioactive material… not exactly Chernobyl… but much more than Three Mile Island.
We can only hope this works…
…but if there is another quake and tsunami, as some are predicting, there is a chance that something worse than the current "worst case" may happen.
Korea is pretty far away physically… but not emotionally. Perhaps it is a little paranoid… but I advocate some cheap preparedness in case there is a little bit of local panic.
Good luck, Japan.
4:53 am on March 13th, 2011 19
I'm not going to wish high death statistics on anyone. I hope and pray for as little suffering as possible there.
But I would like to point out that while the death toll for both Katrina and 9/11 were both astronomical, the premature death toll at this stage (a few days in) was far higher. Both were estimated at more than 10,000 at some point, many/several times more than actual.
4:54 am on March 13th, 2011 20
#15 You are wise ole ChickenHead. Good advice. I keep a few boxes of raman and water around all the time. Kimche too. You never know when they will forget to order more at Kroger, Pigly Wigly, Walmart.
You forgot to advise them to buy ammo — oh yea, I forgot. They are not ALLOWED to own guns. Likely a good thing—
5:21 am on March 13th, 2011 21
GI Korea wrote:
Welcome to San Onofre.
9:09 am on March 13th, 2011 22
#20,
Yeah, Chickenhead is going all survivalist on us (and, yes, it's a good thing that people can't easily own guns in South Korea).
9:48 am on March 13th, 2011 23
Don't worry. The difference between Koreans in trouble vs Americans in trouble. Americans in trouble will loot, rob, and kill for what they need. Koreans will cry out to the sky and blame the government for not helping, but national consensus will build.
That's the major cultural difference that has shown time in and time again. You can get air guns in Korea, but you will never need to use it in Korea. It's better to save your money.
11:29 am on March 13th, 2011 24
Nuclear reactors require a large amount of fresh water for their cooling loops. Putting it near the ocean with a small electrostatic based desalination unit allows them access to the water without having to tap into a city's mains.
I doubt it'll "blow up", if first level containment was ever breached then the secondary containment will prevent reactor material from leaking out while the emergency safety system kicks in and forces all the cadmium rods into the center of the reaction area. This will absorb all free neutrons which effectively shuts down the reaction. This system is mechanical and will function even if the reactor has sustained heavy damage.
What I'd be more worried about is what kind of reactor or is, whether its a LWR or HWR and how the pressure system works. The primary heat extraction loop is usually irradiated water that is cycled from inside the reactor core into either a steam chamber or into another heat exchanger that eventually gets to a steam chamber. If its the former then you have a very real possibility of irradiated water leaking out and into the environment. If its the later then everything will likely be ok as the steam explosion from the boiler shouldn't of ruptured the primary loop.
12:10 pm on March 13th, 2011 25
#24
Hmmmm … the possibility of radioactive contaminated water released into the ocean … Is it too soon to mention Godzilla?
12:21 pm on March 13th, 2011 26
Just finished digging around a bit. Looks like the damaged reactors are BWR's and not PWR, this is a very bad thing. BWR's don't have a secondary heat extraction loop and instead feed the radioactive steam directly into the steam room to turn the turbine. Should a steam explosion take place in the turbine room then you could get radioactive steam coming out of the plant. Their problem isn't shutting down the reaction, it was done automatically when the earthquake went off, its extracting the heat from the steam loop without the primary cooling system working (the big a$$ tower you always see depicted in the pictures). The first explosion was actually expected and a good thing. The engineers were worried about the heat causing the primary loop to explode (the radioactive steam) and instead opted to vent steam from the primary cooling system (non radioactive steam) in an attempt to force down the temperature of the primary loop. There was some hydrogen gas built up inside the primary cooling loop and this gas reacted with the air and oxidized metals to cause an explosion. The explosion knocked down the outer building walls but didn't damage any of the reactor components. The engineers were saying that it worked and the temperature of the main loop is low enough that there shouldn't be a steam explosion.
Basically everything is taken care of and the media is just milking this for as much of a shock factor as possible. High stress drama makes for good ratings and their doing their best to generate as much drama as possible.
12:29 pm on March 13th, 2011 27
Someotherguy #24. It is a boiling water reactor. I sure if you google "boiling water nuclear reactor" that many of your questions will be answered. Teadrinker #22, Korea can make whatever laws they want to but if the NK were to overrun SK if they populace were armed the NK would face one hell of a guerrilla war. The American people have literally hundreds of millions of guns. No tyrant could ever impose a dictatorship on the American people because an armed populace would remove that dictatorship. The tsunami was & is a terrible disaster but of course the Japanese authorities have to focus on the nuclear reactors. If there is a full meltdown then many people will die & vast areas of land will be uninhabitable for many years. I hope & pray that the Japanese can eventually control this terrible situation. I think for the future we need to have a Manhattan project/Apollo moon landing type project to develop nuclear fusion such as powers the sun. An Chernobyl/three mile island/Fukushima type accident CANNOT happen. If a problem happens in a fusion reactor then the power can just be turned off & the reaction immediately stops.
12:44 pm on March 13th, 2011 28
"Just finished digging around a bit. Looks like the damaged reactors are BWR’s and not PWR"
Korea's reactors are PWR – much more safer than Japan. Vietnam and Turkey should be having second thoughts just about now for negotiating with Japan to buy them off of Japan.
1:11 pm on March 13th, 2011 29
Its a give / take between PWR and BWR using either light water or heavy water (LRW / HWR) depending on what you want out. BWR's are more efficient in energy production and are easier to maintain. The heat from the reactor is directly going to turn a turbine and thus doesn't have to be exchanged through another loop first. Because there are only two loops to maintain the annual maintenance is less and the reactor can be on longer between maintenance windows. The down side is that there is a greater risk of a radioactive steam explosion as the reactor coolant is being used as the heat carrier and thus can not be pressurized to keep it in a stable liquid state.
A PWR instead use's a secondary heat exchange loop and suffers from the efficiency loss from that, it also must have maintenance happen more often and for longer periods due to the additional complexity involved. They are more safe as the reactor coolant is kept pressurized and in a stable liquid form while a secondary water loop is used to turn the steam turbine. Give / take.
Honestly we all need to just move on to a thorium molten salt reactor already. Solves most of the problems and are significantly safer then either PWR or BWR reactors.
1:25 pm on March 13th, 2011 30
Also just came off finishing reading the corrupt Japanese nuclear officials who were involved in many corrpution cases over there, over the last few decades. Japanese officials covered up so much stuff about their safety violations. The Japanese media also failed to do their jobs to put these guys in the microscope. The Japanese in charge kept saying Japan's nuclear plants were safest in the world. But when the push came to shove, they didn't have basic safety system in place. This, in a really bad earthquake zone. This is another man made disaster.
I think Chickenhead is right. I think the Japanese are covering up the extent of the radiation leak by under stating the problem to save face, and the problem is getting worse by the hours.
1:38 pm on March 13th, 2011 31
"I think chickenhead is right. I think the japanese are covering up the extent of the radiation leak by understating the problem to save FACE, and the problem is getting worse by the hour."
I have to agree with both of you on this Tom.
1:43 pm on March 13th, 2011 32
That's what the Korean news is saying, something is not right they're saying, and based on the past history of Japanese officials and the poor safety records of the Japanese plants, it's likely this is a cover up.
Just in the news, the third plant at fukushima has exploded. I understand, this is the world's first plutonium plant. I'm trying to get the details on how bad this explosion is. But so far 2 exploded, and 4 more still in trouble.
2:12 pm on March 13th, 2011 33
Teadrinker,
"Yeah, Chickenhead is going all survivalist on us"
I have never, ever, said to myself, "Damn. I was just TOO prepared."
On the other hand, with a little bit of observation and analysis of what goes on around me and around the world, I have seldom found myself unprepared.
I likely won't be able to fight off an invasion of Grays or Reticulans… nor survive the zombie apocalypse for long… but having a supply of food and water in an high population density area which could have supply chains disrupted for any number of unforeseen reasons is simple responsibility to oneself and one's family.
There are, no doubt, a number of above-the-waterline-living Japanese right now who would rather be anywhere than standing in a 10 hour line for a bottle of water and a package of rice balls.
Last week, three hundred dollars and an hour at the local market would have solved this problem for months… but who expected this?
I have better things to do than forage for food if a serious swine flu panic grips Asia… or, suddenly worried about contamination, Koreans panic-buy food for a couple of days… or Korean has a minor incident at a nuke plant… or, lots of stuff that probably won't happen…
…but might.
2:38 pm on March 13th, 2011 34
Also…
Another reactor has just exploded.
Now this is all being billed as a harmless hydrogen explosion.
Uh-huh.
Under normal circumstances… or even normal EMERGENCY circumstances, there would be a mechanism for venting hydrogen in such a way that it didn't have to take your building along with it.
This situation is more serious than the face-saving Japanese want to admit.
Things are happening which the equipment and procedures were not designed for. Desperate and untested actions are being taken to avoid even more serious consequences.
It may work. There are certainly some smart people on this project.
But it may not work. They may just be prolonging the inevitable while the circle of evacuation grows day-by-day at a manageable rate.
Does anybody think my reasoning here is flawed?
9:25 pm on March 13th, 2011 35
CH Sorry you just don't understand how these things work. Fission reactors do ~not~ just explode, its simply not possible for the reactor to go critical. Unlike in the movies where you get all this dramatic red lights, warning sounds, screaming workers running for their lives all while a suspenseful sound track is playing, in real life there are mechanism's built in that prevent that entire scenario from happening. Its reach over, push a few buttons, flick a switch and go eat lunch. Reality doesn't make good movie material though. At the absolute ~worst~ case scenario, the one where all the plant workers are dead or absent and some sort of malfunction has prevented the automated shutdown from kicking in. In that scenario once the fission reactor gets over a certain temperature pressurized explosion bolts over the cadmium rods pop and force the all the rods completely into the reactor core. These rods absorb all the free neutrons that have enough energy to split an atom, the reaction immediately stops. No explosion, no nuclear holocaust, no crazy disaster movie. Its actually not suspenseful at all. There is absolutely nothing that can prevent those rods from being forced in, gravity alone would ensure their complete submersion, the force from the explosion bolt just helps it along. Only half of the rods are required for a complete shutdown, yet all of them will be forced in to guarantee it.
Biggest danger is actually the steam getting to hot and rupturing the heat exchange unit. Really big bang but ultimately not a big deal provided your prepared. Free hydrogen naturally builds up in the cooling loops, it happens when the stray neutron from the reactor core smacks into a water molecule at the appropriate velocity to cause one of the hydrogen molecules to pop off and go spinning away. This hydrogen is bleed off during normal operation and doesn't pose a threat. Problem now is that the cooling system is powered by the reactor itself or the backup generators (used during startup and maintenance). With the generators off-line they can't power up the cooling system, which means the bleeding mechanism isn't functioning. None of the automated valves will move either, the only way to bleed steam is to have some guy with a big wrench manually open the emergency bleed valves. This is exactly what their doing, opening the valves on the primary cooling loop and waiting for them to vent, the explosion is expected and prepared for.
If people would stop listening to the talking heads who couldn't tell the different between uranium and plutonium and instead listen to the engineers who design and operate these things then nobody would be anxious. That doesn't make for good ratings, gotta talk it up and make it out like the world's gonna explode.
And FYI, radiation doesn't "leak" out like that, its not some mysterious material. Radioactive material is what leaks, keep the material safe and your ok. The core is the only seriously radioactive place and its buried underground surrounded by steel reinforced concrete.
5:44 am on March 14th, 2011 36
someotherguy,
"CH Sorry you just don’t understand how these things work."
Hmmm… but I do… and, more importantly, I understand how they DON'T work. And, right now, they are not working.
In a moment, we will talk about the quick scan of Wikipedia which led to your rosy technical theories of just dropping the control rods back in, bleeding off a little hydrogen, calling it a half-day and going home early for a nap while chuckling about the non-technical types who are all needlessly worried.
First, simply ignore every talking head and official statement. It is important to keep the public calm… and telling fibs and watered-down half-truths when they can get by with it is part of the deal.
Using an emergency law, the Japanese government has already required the media to clear what it reports on the matter.
They are not wrong… and, despite me calling them on it, they are doing the correct thing… as the reactors are still going to do what they are going to do with or without public panic.
They are taking EXTREMELY desperate technical measures with some extreme concequences that indicate the alternatives are even worse… and they are doing it while diverting resources from finding survivors and caring for refugees to create even MORE refugees in a methodical and daily-expanding radius around the plant… and they are radiation testing them.
You don't have to know any more about nuclear power plants than what you learned on the Simpsons to see what they are doing and make some reasonable guesses as to why.
Now let's talk technical.
You are absolutely right. There will not, and cannot, be a movie-style atomic explosion… but there can be a lot of flashing warning lights… and, perhaps, even people running for their lives with their iPods blaring a suspenseful soundtrack… or J-pop…
…though Yakety Sax would be my personal choice.
And, there can, and likely WILL, be further energetic releases of increasingly contaminated steam which will greatly lower the property values in the surrounding area… and cause some panic in the region… perhaps, though unlikely, as far away as Korea.
Why will this happen? The media has not clearly explained this.
As you stated, the control rods are inserted to absorb neutrons and moderate the reaction… but you are incorrect in saying the reaction immediately stops. The reactor continues to generate a great deal of heat for some time. This is why they are continuing to cool the reactors using sea water.
This last-ditch effort means they pump in the water and then periodically bleed off the high pressure super-heated steam, presumably using your "guy with a big wrench".
But this is where Wikipedia fails you.
"Biggest danger is actually the steam getting to hot and rupturing the heat exchange unit."
What you probably mean is the steam getting to too high of pressure and rupturing the containment vessel.
Yes. That IS a pretty big danger, isn't it.
"Really big bang but ultimately not a big deal provided your prepared."
Prepared with what?
A rupture in the containment vessel normally might be manageable… but, without question, these reactors have had some degree of "meltdown" which has damaged the geometry of the rods and is increasingly contaminating the steam with radioactive material.
Further, with the pumps off-line due to being in a flooded basement and not having any power, they have been using fire trucks and other half-measures… which do not have the power to pump in the great quantity of water that is truly needed.
For this reason, it is likely the tops of all the fuel rods are not even under water… and are shedding material at an increasing rate.
From the increased number of people showing contamination to the detection of radiation by quite distant American navy ships and helicopters, the evidence supports this.
And, although the reactors will certainly cool over the next week, it is very, very likely that quite a bit of radio active material will have to be released in the meantime.
This will be even uglier if #3, which contains plutonium, follows the same path.
The Japanese government already knows exactly what is likely to happen along with some other worst-case situations such as further tsunamis washing away the firetrucks and a puddle of molten fuel melting through the containment vessel and boiling away in a pool of water.
This isn't going to be the end of the world… and, radiation-wise, isn't something we have to worry about if we live in Korea or America.
But it has the potential to effect a state of panic in the surrounding areas… or nations.
And, for that, I advocated those living in Korea to stock up on some food and water… just in case there is a bit of panic.
6:59 am on March 14th, 2011 37
There is a summary of a good article talking about the Fukushima nuclear accident on The Next Big Future website which links to an article on the bravenewclimate website. The article is titled "Fukishima Nuclear Accident-a simple and accurate explanation." The Japanese sure got Fuked. There was a nuclear expert on CNN who gave a animated but very good explanation of the whole disaster. He said that it would take about 3 months for the reactor core to cool down enough to completely remove worries about a total meltdown. I would guess at that point that fuel removal & maybe some repairs could start. MSNBC showed a good explanation of the accident that came from Japanese TV. That report was in English. There was a nuclear expert on one of the news channels that said that he had recommended years ago that another level of containment be built in these plants where the excess high pressure hydrogen could be vented & filtered. I think he said that this had been done in parts of Europe but not in the US & Japan. I agree with someotherguy that in the near term that we should go to either thorium molten salts reactors, pebble bed reactors, or other safer forms of nuclear fission. In the long term I think nuclear fusion is the solution which has a 0% chance of a catastrophic Fukushima type accident.
7:40 am on March 14th, 2011 38
I agree with Chickenhead. Why would they resort to last resort desperate measures, if things aren't quite bad? Because the consequences of letting it be, could be disasterous. This is a common sense which you don't have to be a nuclear expert to know.
10:27 am on March 14th, 2011 39
I have read that the use of salt water is a desperate measure for two reasons. Normally distilled water is used as the coolant. The first reason is that since the seawater has salt & other solids in it which can become radioactive after exposure to radiation whereas distilled water doesn't become radioactive. The second reason is that the salt in seawater is very corrosive which can corrode & thus destroy the core. I read on the Science News website that it would be necessary to keep the core submerged for several weeks to keep it cool until the fission stops & then the core can be dismantled, removed, & disposed of.
1:20 pm on March 14th, 2011 40
Read what everything wrote in the last 24 hours and then check the current news.
It is going to get worse.
It is time to order your geiger counters… because there is going to be a little paranoia about everthing from produce to manufactured goods.
1:38 pm on March 14th, 2011 41
It is looks like Chickenhead was right. The Japanese government was in fact not disclosing the extent of the damage at the Fukushima nuclear plant. Supposedly the explosion on Tuesday did damage the steel containment structure according to the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nu…
However, if you read the full article there is a lot of conflicting information on the extent of the damage. Let's hope this doesn't get any worse.
1:53 pm on March 14th, 2011 42
Here is what MSNBC is reporting that shows the radiation may not be that bad:
The Japanese PM has gone on TV to tell people to stay indoors which leads me to believe that even though this radiation release is very low level it is not something that people can stand outside and be exposed to for an extended period of time.
1:58 pm on March 14th, 2011 43
I was going to remark that the difference, however, is that this is one long X-ray, but it appears that microsieverts as a measure takes into account length of exposure.
1:00 am on March 15th, 2011 44
For those of you living in Korea…
The seeds of panic are starting to grow.
Today, 3/15/2011, a fake tweet/message/etc went out that radiation from Japan would arrive in Seoul at 4pm and everyone should stay off the streets.
Did anybody get this message or notice any effects of this?
1:28 am on March 15th, 2011 45
That message has been identified false by the Korean government. They have asked everyone to ignore that chain letter message.
But you are right Chickenhead, and Someotherguy is wrong. Fukushima Plant #8 has two gaping holes which is exposing spent rods. These are not like the Plant #1 and #3 fuels which are covered in enforced concrete and steel. The spent rods are currently totally exposed to the elements. If a fire starts in there, the smoke will carry a deadly combination of radiation into the atmosphere, it's worse than Plant #1 and #3.
We're almost to the level of Chernobyl times it by three nuclear plants which are in trouble.
1:29 am on March 15th, 2011 46
I meant Fukushima Plant #4, not Fukushima Plant #8.
9:15 am on March 15th, 2011 47
How many people died at Chernobyl? Something like 70 I believe, during and shortly after the explosion, before the evacuation. Japan has already evacuated, Yes.
Stop your Fear mongering tom. The Three Mile Island comparison is more accurate to what the Construction of Japan's Reactors are like. How many died due to the Three Mile Island event? Zero Tom.
Fear Monger much?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Ch…
Instead, worry about their economy, after this event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_ac…
9:32 am on March 15th, 2011 48
Also of interest: http://www.ydr.com/local/ci_17601961
So, on with the cleanup.
12:54 pm on March 15th, 2011 49
Retired GI…
While my predictions could be considered fear mongering, let me be clear.
This disaster is not going to end with many radiation deaths like a movie. It is going to be a social and economic disaster.
Some problems will be based on new realities and some will be based on fear… but the effects will be real.
Worrying about a mild cloud of radiation sweeping over Tokyo is a small part of a larger problem that nobody is considering yet.
2:06 pm on March 15th, 2011 50
someotherguy,
Cue Yackety Sax…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake
The control room is empty… no idea if they turned off the light and locked the door as they left or made off like screaming extras in a Godzilla movie.
If one strips the sugar coated words, a terrible truth emerges.
Emergency measures they say are "suspended" are actually emergency measures which failed.
It is all over.
These reactors are on their own… and will do whatever they do with little further human influence.
This is a MASSIVE disaster that few people have their head wrapped around… yet.
Immediate effects of radiation is just a tiny, tiny part.
There will be a further, larger-scale humanitarian crisis in Japan based on disruptions of energy, supply, transportation, farming, etc.
Depending on the wind and popular rumor, this will affect nearby places such as Korea.
Those of you in Korea… STOCK UP on all the things you need to enjoy a month of stress-free living while others panic.
There will be longer-term shortages and price increases of energy as nuke plants are inspected, upgraded or shut down… globally.
There is lots more to say but I hate typing on the phone… more tonight.
5:14 pm on March 15th, 2011 51
The last 50 nuclear technicians had to evacuate because they had too much radiation exposure. So nobody is in the f'ing plant? Huston, uh Tokyo we have a problem in other words we here at Fukushima are Fuked. The only thing that I can now think of what to do is to order the Japanese military to man the water hoses in rotation to minimize radiation exposure at least for the time being. The Japanese are good at building robots, maybe they could build some real f'ing quick to hold these water hoses & do other necessary tasks. This isn't meant as a joke, after Chernobyl robots were used in the damaged reactors there. We all know that robots are used on the battlefield & in law enforcement to deal with explosives & other dangerous situations. Robots are also used of course in factories to perform many tasks. It's either that or run for the hills. I hope the scientists & engineers can work this out. We all need to pray.
5:15 pm on March 15th, 2011 52
By the way…
Released hydrogen caused several explosions. This makes sense… and also gives insight into the seriousness of the situation… as normal plans, backup plans, emergency backup plans, and even last-resort emergency contingency back-up plans generally are designed to let you keep your buildings and not knock all your workers on the azzes.
Despite all the alarmism, NOWHERE has the media mentioned this.
Here is the next important question that the media has not even asked to their "experts".
In the smoke-belching reactor(s), what exactly is burning? The interior is not made of balsa wood and tissue paper… so that narrows things down… mostly to stuff that puts off some pretty nasty smoke.
Once again, even if these things were packed with C4 and blown up and forgotten, it isn't the end of the world… just like Chernobyl was not the end of the world.
But, with everything that leaks, there is a larger and larger affect on the future of agriculture and fishing in the area… and Japan… which will have some affect on the region and the world.
Prepare for higher oil and electricity prices… even if it is just an excuse by those who control oil and electricity.
5:25 pm on March 15th, 2011 53
Chickenhead #52. One of the things that happened at Three Mile Island was a hydrogen explosion. As a fix they put ignitors in many reactors to burn any hydrogen before the concentration reached explosive levels. I guess they didn't put them in the Fukushima reactors.
5:52 pm on March 15th, 2011 54
Tom L.,
It is my understanding that they had them but could not power them.
There must be more to all of this, though…
…being that there must be an entire chapter in the What To Do If Things Turn To Shyt manual that deals with how to keep things running in the event of power failure.
When writing that book, certainly somebody said, "What happens if the ignitors fail?"
And the answer couldn't have been, "Funk it. The building's just for show anyway."
9:14 pm on March 15th, 2011 55
49,ChickenHead. What I am more concerned about is the Economic Meltdown that japan will now face. This is what no one seems to be talking about. At least I have heard none of the talking heads bring it up. Meanwhile, How was Obama's golf game this weekend?
9:24 pm on March 15th, 2011 56
I am also concerned about Adrian Peterson calling being paid ten million for next season as modern day "slavery". I wonder what that says about my 2500.00 per month for serving in Iraq. Get a grip Peterson! Sorry, off topic. Time for another "replacement season"!
10:26 pm on March 15th, 2011 57
@49 –
That statement I can agree with. It is already a social and economic disaster that is only going to get worse for Japan. It seems people have already lost confidence in the PM, the Japanese stock market is collapsing, there is going to be energy shortages for some time, any farms in the area around the plant will be contaminated, and the list goes on and on.
11:02 pm on March 15th, 2011 58
"What I am more concerned about is the Economic Meltdown that japan will now face."
Yeah. Me, too.
Japan makes a lot of small parts that are very important to the global supply chain of larger manufactured good in the rest of the world. This is potentially a large global economic disruption… although it give opportunity to nations and individuals who see it coming.
An "expert" just said that Japan isn't releasing enough information for other "experts" to give any truly valid opinions about what is going on and what will happen… but, based on what the Japanese are doing (and not doing) the situation is… well… just read everything I have written.
I have also gotten a number of e-mails from people I know in Japan (and some attached e-mails from people I don't). There isn't anything too surprising… but one guy, who is a pretty high-level guy, is sending his family out of Japan… not because he has any special knowledge… but because people above him (who would have special knowledge if it exists) are sending their families out of Japan. That's may or may not be important information.
A few more observation…
Japan has finally asked the United States for help. That's a big step… and a last resort.
The bottom of the Good Idea Barrel is being scraped. Using a riot police water cannon truck for cooling the reactor is not the right tool for the right job.
Several more but something interesting just came up… gotta look into it. Standby.
12:07 am on March 16th, 2011 59
Japan to United States: "We just a major disaster, Uncle Sam. We need to cash in some of the money that we deposited in your safe so that we can rebuild our country, can we have them now?"
Uncle Sam: "You want them all now? Ummm… Can you give us few days, no few months, no few years? We need to count and prepare the money to you".
Uncle Sam to US Treasury: "Print more money! Japan wants their money now!".
12:22 am on March 16th, 2011 60
@58 – Like I said in my prior posting, if USFJ starts evacuating families from Japan than it is time to worry. I'm sure the US military is closely monitoring the radiation levels. The Japanese are trying to clear a road now to allow fire trucks access to the nuclear plant to help cool the reactor. It will be interesting to see what help the Japanese specifically want from the US?
It seems like a serious meltdown is imminent but if the experts are right, which I hope they are, the containment shell should prevent this from becoming a Chernobyl style disaster.
12:49 am on March 16th, 2011 61
False alarm.
I thought I had more information on the JSDF involvement and evacuation… but nothing you can't find on-line.
Anyway,
Like Korea, a large part of Japan's economy is based on all the fresh fruits and vegetables produced by small farms. Of course, there is going to be a map made of the radiation spread. Regardless of how harmless, it will affect the economies of those places… and it will affect the prices of food for average Japanese… which, along with increased energy prices, will put a squeeze on everyone.
Fishing may also be affected… certainly fish/seaweed farms all down the west coast… and farther if the reactors continue their disintegration… which all
evidence points to them doing.
(there was talk that damage caused the stored rods in #4 to reach criticality)
Korea is in a good position to export produce to Japan this season… which will, unfortunately, increase the price for everyone in Korea.
…but, if you have some land, start preparing to plant.
You just know that black market USFK rice is going to start going at a premium as ajuma finds it even more profitable to send to Japan instead of selling on the local market.
1:00 am on March 16th, 2011 62
It's strange how some officials didn't think a fire and an explosion at a nuclear facility was much to worry about. I had a situation involving the combination of a faulty toaster and a Pop-Tart that started a small fire in my kitchen years ago. I thought that was a disaster in itself.
One thing that needs a comment is the guts of those 50 workers who stayed behind. Falling on a grenade is a heroic act, but done rashly on the spur of the moment. Those guys had time to think about it and could have left if they wanted. "Courage is the ability to do the right thing, regardless of the consequences".
3:21 am on March 16th, 2011 63
So much for famed Japanese foresight and construction based on safety. It turns out it was just all a facade, like much of Japan.
These guys are criminals for hiding such dangerously designed reactors in the fault line. About half of the reactors that Japan built on BWR format, they were built to maximize savings on costs, instead of maximizing safety. I read that they had numerous chances to fix these problems, and also numerous advices that pointed out their problems, but all in the end ignored and dismissed. The plant officials, and the government kept lieing about serious safety issues and covered them up in the end. Until this disaster happened.
Thankfully, all the Korean reactors are built with costlier, but better safer designs with PWR formats. Stuff like what's happening with Japanese reactors wouldn't happen with this design.
It looks like the Japanese are desperate. They are trying to use helicopters to douse the exploding plants with water, from air – totally desperate.
5:43 am on March 16th, 2011 64
Remember how I agreed that this would be no Chernobyl?
I'm thinking of changing my mind.
I think it is going to start out about…
…two times worse.
Depending on the wind, and how you measure "worse", it may be MANY times worse…
…as, at near worst-case, no good will come from a panicked evacuation of Tokyo.
So…
Regardless of "official" numbers, it appears the real amount of surrounding radiation is keeping anyone from doing anything constructive… meaning the reactors are truly on their own.
This might be no big problem as they would simply melt inside the containment vessel…
…except… remember all those explosions that we were assured were perfectly normal releases of hydrogen (hat tip: someotherguy)?
Well… some are saying that all three containment vessels have been cracked… with the fourth one's storage area now open with some possibility of the stored fuel going critical all by themselves… it seems that they already have done so for some time earlier today.
Radiation readings, both near and far, seem to confirm all of this.
There are "experts" who are saying it is only a local problem and there are "experts" who are saying it is going to be very, very, very bad for a large area.
Technically, I have little real idea as both of them make a reasonable case based on how a reactor works.
But I know how people and governments operate… and, as they have from the beginning, everyone has been operating in desperation… increasing desperation…
…increasing desperation met with cascading failure.
That indicates whatever the worst case is, they are headed for it. And they know it. And they have suspected it from the beginning.
The only question now is…
…what is the worst case?
Will they melt into pools and require a couple of decades to clean up and process? Will they catch on fire, belch days of acrid smoke composed of uranium/plutonium dust which goes where the wind takes it?
The first clue will be in the next 12-48 hours when certain American military installations in possible danger zones casually move assets a little farther down the road in a "already scheduled training exercise" or some other transparent nonsense.
And, maybe, "voluntary" evacuation flights will be offered to dependents who "are worried about the very low levels of slightly elevated background radiation."
GI Korea is right. It doesn't matter what the media or the experts or the Japanese Department of Wishful Numbers say.
Just watch the American military…
…maybe.
The military wouldn't put its members and dependents in any danger just to maintain appearances on another issue, would they? Would they?
5:57 am on March 16th, 2011 65
Let's hope the days of putting GI's in the vicinity of nuclear events like they did in the 50's are long gone.
9:23 am on March 16th, 2011 66
When I read they are pulling back rescue and salvage workers but at least one U.S. official is talking about sending them in on suicide missions it does recall Chernobyl. I saw a Chernobyl documentary a few years ago on the History Channel or BBC where that is what they did. During the crisis, some engineers who actually understood the danger chose to put themselves at mortal risk and went into a pool of radioactive water in diver's wet suits to shut off valves. But later firefighters had little understanding of the dangers when they were sent into hot zones with non-working dosimeters and accumulated fatal doses. Later crews, also with little understanding of the risks, were put in heavy suits and sent in for seconds at a time to shovel radioactive debris. Many of them got fatal doses.
When I saw that documentary and again now, when I read on Stars and Stripes about U.S. military planning and contingency planning for these events, I am reminded of the '80s, when military exercises (at least Air Force) on CONUS bases had a part to train for what to do after nuclear attack. One year I was picked to be part of the Shelter (fallout shelter) Management Team (SMT) which gave me special training and stuck a Special Experience Identifier in my records. That got me put on the SMT for every CONUS exercise I did through the '80s and gave me more advanced training. We learned the basic science for nuclear fallout, how to monitor it and how to decontaminate facilities, equipment and people. We also learned how to make decisions as managers of fallout shelters where you will be responsible for keeping a maximum amount of people alive for an indefinite period of time. That meant identifying essential personnel, with critical skills or 'importance' at the same time identifying expendable personnel. We used the term, non-essential. Essential work outside the shelter, like repairing equipment and searching for food was shared by allowing everyone to get about equal amounts of daily doses. But at some point, there would be critical tasks that may require people to exceed all dosage limits. You gave those to the non-essentials.
I hoped this is all nostalgia and a thing of the past, but I know it is not. I remember thinking at the time how Dr. Strangelove-ish it was and wondering about the people who had to think about and plan for these things as a full time job.
9:46 am on March 16th, 2011 67
Yes, Yes. The sky is frigging falling — YET AGAIN!
It has already fallan for tens of thousand of the Japanese people. The worse case happened with the flooding.
But that is not a story of long enough duration. We can get much more press out of the "Nuke" angle. Don't let it die boys! Get out there and Hype it up!
10:34 am on March 16th, 2011 68
Retired GI, "I have to agree with both of you on this Tom."
I'd thought I'd never see Retired GI and Tom agree on something.
11:05 am on March 16th, 2011 69
Germany has pulled all their rescue people out of Japan. And where is the American carriers again?
German nuclear officials in Japan are also accusing Japanese government for trying to cover up the real dangers by understating the crisis.
Plant #4 has two gaping holes 8 meters apart, there is no containment piece that surrounds the spent plutonium rods, like the other 3 plants do. So all the experts who say the containment will do its job even if the plant goes into melt down mode, didn't know about the fact that Japanese were secretly storing spent plutonium probably to make future nuclear weapons.
Even the Italian head coach of the Japanese football team fled. And where is the American carriers again? They too turned around and fled.
12:24 pm on March 16th, 2011 70
Gregory Jaczko, chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, thinks the spent fuel rods in reactor 4 are no longer covered in water. That lets them get hot, and the zirconium cladding can crack and even burn. Radioactive materials, such as cesium 137, can escape into the atmosphere. Here's the NY Times story.
12:50 pm on March 16th, 2011 71
Anyone (that nuclear experts GI Korea mentioned) who is still basing their conclusions on the information that the Japanese authorities are providing is an idiot. You got to understand, Japanese government is paralyzed. Making quick, bold decisions is not their forte. And they are more interested in keeping foreign investors and not cause a panic in Tokyo. Of course they will downplay this. The American government has recommended American citizens to evacuate outside of the 83km radius. The British government has advised its citizens to go outside of 250km. Now if you were betting on your life, which advice would you take? Japanese (20km), American(83km) , British(250km), or German (get out of Japan)?
12:56 pm on March 16th, 2011 72
The Japanese government should be organizing a massive evacuation, they should be warning and preparing citizens in Tokyo to get ready.
What about the Korean government? They are colluding with the Japanese government, and not trying to cause a panic. The Korean government should be organizing the mass evacuation of Korean citzens, like the Chinese, the Germans, the French, and the Italians. Instead, Korean government doesn't want to cause anger in Tokyo, so they're going along with this charade so not to offend Tokyo. The Korean citizens in Japan are screwed because their government don't want to be seen going against the Japanese government who don't have a clue what the hell is going on.
3:38 pm on March 16th, 2011 73
Well…
As expected, the State Department declared an authorized voluntary departure of families of U.S. government personnel… meaning they are providing chartered planes for anybody who wants to go.
As this would certainly upset Japan since it doesn't fit with the Everything Is Under Control story, this decision was not made lightly nor was it made simply to appease a few worried housewives.
Be watching for this same thing to happen for military dependents. They are likely determining the how-not-to-offend-our-Japanese-hosts wording right now.
4:05 pm on March 16th, 2011 74
Word on the Street has it that the voluntary evacuation has now been extended to dependents of military and DoD personnel.
5:36 pm on March 16th, 2011 75
As everyone knows, those most of concern to even moderately high levels of radiation increases would be pregnant women. I haven't heard of any public announcements but I suspects all of their doctors would be advising them to take the evacuation. And even Japanese doctors would advise their pregnant patients to move out to a much wider radius than their government is advising.
6:14 pm on March 16th, 2011 76
The official military script has been "no problem".
Doctors are saying this… and saying it is the official military position… then saying, personally, they would leave Japan.
Studies of pregnant European women in the path of Chernobyl showed lower standardized test scores in their children… even though the amount of radiation was "harmless".
This has not been talked about… yet. But it will change Tokyo… and Japan.
8:54 pm on March 16th, 2011 77
It is no longer just Word on the Street…
http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/military-begi…
All those NEO exercises never had a "flee TO Korea" scenario, did they?
For those of you with a valid opinion, would the military do this just to please some whiny dependents? Or is there a real issue here worth showing a crack in the USFJ backing of the official Japanese story?
9:03 pm on March 16th, 2011 78
If you are interested in the area and the radiation situation…
Here is a map of the area with the location of the radiation sensors and their readings yesterday.
http://t.co/xtrKrTe
9:06 pm on March 16th, 2011 79
The Chinese are starting to worry. Some even buy iodized salt, which is useless.
3:23 am on March 17th, 2011 80
I just got home and started watching helicopters drop water on the reactors.
This is a pathetic act of desperate showmanship… like a 90 year-old former diva attempting to croak out a long-forgotten opera song and missing all the right notes while everyone looks down at their shoes and smiles nervously.
Painful… and yet another reminder that it is all over.
The "wrong tool for the wrong job", police riot water cannons, of course did not do anything… as expected.
These reactors are on their own… yet the media can't quite bring themselves to say so… and (public) decisions aren't (yet) being made based on that knowledge.
There are hints that some American military bases are working on plans for a FULL evacuation. That doesn't mean it will happen… but it means they are aware of certain possibilities and are planning for them.
So much for dropping in the control rods and going off to an early lunch.
4:24 am on March 17th, 2011 81
^ #80, the Korean media is reporting that the Japanese will have to decide if they try a final suicide mission to crack through somehow and put out the fire. That means sacrificing certain number of Japanese fire fighters to certain deaths, to save a lot more lives. The papers are saying that if they had done this from the beginning, they may have had a chance. But they dithered and tried to build consensus, unable to make a hard decision, in which they're still dithering. Now it's almost down to 1% possibility that even the suicide mission will work. Is it worth a try? Tough decision.
7:47 am on March 17th, 2011 82
It's more than just a tough decision. It's not a win/win or even maybe win/maybe lose situation. Sounds like a lose/probably lose situation. And they still have to deal w/ the quake/tsunami calamity. And then there's the potential for panic of the populace in the large cities. Where would you put up X million people in an emergency situation, in cold weather? There aren't enough gymansiums on the planet for that. It may come to the point of just hunkering down and taking whatever comes their way.
Considering the immediate and long term physical and economic effects of this and whatever worst case scenario plays out, this has the potential of being one of, if not the worst, peacetime disasters ever, for Japan and the world. It's also the nature of the present danger. Everyone has a fear of radiation, plutonium, cesium, and whatever else. Picking up the pieces after a natural disaster involves sadness, hard work, doing without, anxiety. Not so much the intense fear that an ongoing uncontrollable situation with a burning, exploding nuclear plant would foster.
3:57 pm on March 17th, 2011 83
There is a small bit of good news. TEPCO (The Japanese utility company) is in the process of putting a power line to one of the reactors which will hopefully enable the emergency cooling system to come back on line to spray the nuclear core with water to cool it continuously so the workers wont have to do it thus reducing their radiation exposure. The video of the helicopters dropping the water into the reactors seems to me to be about as effective as passing gas in a hurricane.
5:17 pm on March 17th, 2011 84
#83
There is still a good bit of uncertainty there.
Connecting a new generator and power lines to the existing cooling system assumes that cooling system is still serviceable. No one knows how much damage may have occurred to the piping or cooling vessels from the explosions or contamination to the pumps from all the sea water dumped on them.
6:22 pm on March 17th, 2011 85
Wow I'm gone for a few days due to work and the thread goes nuts.
The reason their not keeping operators inside / near the reactor vessels is that their not needed. The first thing that happened during the quake is the automatic shutdown of all the reactors. The cadmium rods are fully inserted thus stopping the fission reactions. The issue has been decay heat and how to keep the plants cool until the decay heat is low enough to start work again, usually about a week or so.
The media is going all out with twisting words and misleading everyone on whats really going on.
Read everything on this thread first to get a better understanding on whats going on.
http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2…