By For those that are interested in the ongoing drama at ATEK, The Three Wise Monkeys recently completed a three part series detailing the problems within the organization:
- ATEK, The Great White Hoax – Part 1
- ATEK, The Great White Hoax – Part 2
- ATEK, The Great White Hoax – Part 3
I have absolutely no dog in this fight, so I will let readers decide for themselves the validity of what was written, but I will say that there was a couple of former ATEK people that I had e-mail correspondence with in the past that I will say that ATEK is much better off with their departure. Hopefully the latest leadership at ATEK can turn it into a respectable organization that provides needed services for the English teacher community in South Korea.
2:49 pm on April 5th, 2011 1
Goodness!
These articles agreed with everything I observed… and confirmed everything I suspected.
I should re-post all of my past ATEK comments here.
As I suspected, they are more interested in maintaining their self-importance and padding their resumes than actually helping anybody.
I will say again, an organization to help foreigners here must be built from the ground up and not from the top down.
I would do it… but of all the teachers I know here, they only fall into two categories…
…those who don't need help and those who don't deserve it.
2:54 pm on April 5th, 2011 2
ATEK lost me when, instead of attacking the discriminatory immigration rules and the politicians behind them as being xenophobic, they demanded equal standards for Korean teachers.
3:03 pm on April 5th, 2011 3
"As I suspected, they are more interested in maintaining their self-importance and padding their resumes than actually helping anybody."
They certainly aren't helping me.
What would it take for them to win my trust? I might consider changing my mind about them if they can convince universities to give a sabbatical to their foreign teachers just as they do with their Korean ones.
7:47 pm on April 5th, 2011 4
ATEKshould have started with getting the Korean government to enforce its own laws with pension, health insurance, and contract enforcement. Those are winning issues and will draw members when foreign teachers see progress made.
7:50 pm on April 5th, 2011 5
It is not surprising at all to read that the ATEK leaders have been egomaniacs and have been consumed with petty squabbles. Anyone who has dealt with ATEK leaders has come away feeling like they just talked to some shady people. It's also not surprising to read that prominent expat bloggers have been a part of the problem. Some of them are just as shady.
9:30 pm on April 5th, 2011 6
LOL.
Let the mad dogs fight it out. lol.
10:17 pm on April 5th, 2011 7
"ATEKshould have started with getting the Korean government to enforce its own laws with pension, health insurance, and contract enforcement. Those are winning issues and will draw members when foreign teachers see progress made."
No need for ATEK if that's what you want because that's exactly what the labor board does.
10:38 pm on April 5th, 2011 8
#7- The labor board doesn't enforce pension and health insurance. Besides, if you read the story at the posted links, the orgins of ATEK are supposedly rooted in a problem with health insurance benefits for a foreign teacher who died in a fire.
It became an issue of contention because the original ATEK leaders used the lack of health insurance benefits for that teacher as a "rallying point" and then they abandoned the issue. Read the story.
12:27 am on April 6th, 2011 9
Teadrinker,
You don't know what you're talking about. And that goes for what you said before this…"They certainly aren’t helping me" because you condemned those for supposedly "padding resumes" then followed that with the selfish statement "They certainly aren’t helping me." LOL, what makes you any different than those you claim "padded resumes?" Okay, so you don't like ATEK but how has ATEK hurt YOU?
12:31 am on April 6th, 2011 10
#8
They most certainly enforce it.
#9,
Read #2. That's how they hurt me.
12:35 am on April 6th, 2011 11
Chickenhead,
"all the teachers I know here, they only fall into two categories…
…those who don’t need help and those who don’t deserve it."
Thank goodness you aren't the Judge and Jury.
12:38 am on April 6th, 2011 12
Teardrinker,
Your #2 post proves zilch, again I ask how did ATEK hurt you? BTW, what you said in your #2 post isn't true so please stop lying.
1:01 am on April 6th, 2011 13
#12,
Lying? Before you start throwing that word around, you might want to do a bit of research.
http://populargusts.blogspot.com/2009/02/more-on-…
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/…
1:27 am on April 6th, 2011 14
#9,
Well I know that ATEK has and will hurt me because they claim to represent me.
How does this hurt me?
If they do happen to ever get the attention of the ROK gov, all teachers will suffer in disgrace the moment some Korean media outlet, or even just a lone zealot, looks up the founding members: Tony Hellmann, particularly.
Having a founder who was convicted of sexual misconduct with a minor after he was supposed to be acting as that girl's counselor – at a center for at-risk youth, no less – will really muck things up for not only ATEK but every teacher that it claims to represent.
As they claim to represent everyone, I will be hurt.
Second, they've already spoiled the pot by creating unreliable links to different organizations in the name of teachers like me.
They mucked things up with the Seoul Metro Police.
They mucked things up with the government's commission on immigration and health.
They mucked things up with a major hagwon chain.
They mucked things up with a major church volunteering program
…and so on…
After breaking so many arrangements and failing to follow through with their plans, who will want to work with English teachers and English teachers' groups?
They've already done plenty to hurt all English teachers.
1:55 am on April 6th, 2011 15
The con artists are fighting amongst themselves.
Fascinating.
and Koreans are always being accused of unfairly portraying the ESL teachers. Well, have a look at this mess… what more does it say?
4:15 am on April 6th, 2011 16
#15, if the only ESL folks you ever met were ATEK leaders, you might have a point; but they offer surgery for that in Ulsan…
7:13 am on April 6th, 2011 17
If anyone reads the story, I have a question and maybe Chickenhead or someone else can answer it. In part 2 of the story there are links to 2 podcasts where a number of expat bloggers are heard just trashing foreign teachers. Many of us don't recognize these people based on their voices alone. Can someone listen to those podcasts and post the names of those bloggers?
7:14 am on April 6th, 2011 18
BTW, that's trictly for informational purposes. That'll help readers understand part 2 of the actual articles posted above.
10:37 am on April 6th, 2011 19
The current President of ATEK is Korean? Didn't take someone long to make sure the fix was in.
11:10 am on April 6th, 2011 20
Archieb,
Which "group" of foreign teachers were they trashing and for what reason?
11:26 am on April 6th, 2011 21
MikeinSeoul,
"They mucked things up with the government’s commission on immigration and health."
You lost all credibility with the above statement, but please indulge me with laughter by explaining. I know the Seoul Metro Police are a fine bunch and would never imagine anything going wrong when dealing with them. Are you supporting a hagwon chain who could be guilty of witholding MILLIONS of Korean Won from English teachers in the form of severance? Go figure!
Frankly, I don't have much respect for churches, pastors, etc… I doubt anything ATEK did to a chuch could be as stupid as this…
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/…
Nonetheless, I'll go back and read about how you say ATEK "mucked" things up with a "major" church.
11:30 am on April 6th, 2011 22
Got a link for that church story?
12:11 pm on April 6th, 2011 23
#14, which hagwon chain?
3:37 pm on April 6th, 2011 24
There were no press releases on the church story. It happened during the shit-storm of Part 3, and they were focused on the Galvan guy, I guess. Anyway, they let that slip.
Whether or not you care for churches, they are an important force in Korean society and having them as allies or even acquaintances wouldn't have hurt. Ignoring them would probably not be bad either, but alienating them by breaking collaborations or leaving people hanging is just bad.
#23, please review the following links to the press releases ATEK has made about their collaboration with other orgs. All these ties have been cut as far as I can tell. They didn't seem to say anything about Seoul in their press release from a week or so back, presented here by GI Korea.
As to which hagwon chain, just look at the second link:
http://atek.or.kr/index.php?option=com_content&am…
http://atek.or.kr/index.php?option=com_content&am…
http://atek.or.kr/index.php?option=com_content&am…
This is on top of them losing ties to the Seoul Metro Police, the biggest police force in the country, and even lying about how they were part of the commission.
Did you see how the police said that 'no group was part of the commission'? Burn. At least before they had the Barthalamy guy on the commission.
3:43 pm on April 6th, 2011 25
Sorry, I didn't see #21, and sorry for multiple posts. I don't like doing that.
How do I lose credibility with that statement?
I know for a fact that the former VP of ATEK, a guy named Bean, received a commendation from the government for his input on the HIV/AIDS testing matter, but that was a letter that he wrote himself and submitted independently.
ATEK filed another letter with the commission, and received nothing from them.
How then, can they claim that they did any good, effected any change, or take any credit for any of it, really?
Just ask them for their commendation from the gov for their contribution to the legislation.
They mucked it up by claiming trophies that aren't yours. It's like claiming you have a commendation that you were never really given. It's not just petty and disturbing.
3:56 pm on April 6th, 2011 26
"The con artists are fighting amongst themselves. "
Not until you showed up. I went to grad school to become a teacher, you' aren't Korean.
4:53 pm on April 6th, 2011 27
I think he's Judge Judy.
6:45 pm on April 6th, 2011 28
#20- Listen to the podcasts. They have very negative things to say about teachers with F series visas and anyone who's been in Korea more than 5 years. Who are they?
6:46 pm on April 6th, 2011 29
The podcasts are linked in part 2 of the posted stories about ATEK.
7:22 pm on April 6th, 2011 30
Tom wrote:
Don't get so smug, Tom.
While some English teachers are precious little lotus blossoms, terrible slackers, con artists, or criminals, or some combination thereof, most are decent people who are just trying to get by and a lot of their complaints about stuff in Korea are legitimate.
It is a shame that an organization like ATEK can't do better, but I think that (a) it has improved and should be given a chance, (b) a replacement organization would end up with pretty much the same problems, and (c) it probably (with reform) would be the best opportunity to solve problems.
Moreover, the legitimate problems faced by English teachers that ATEK can't solve become Korea's problems, particularly in that they create bad will among invited guests.
I know the same thing is true in your native China as well.
7:31 pm on April 6th, 2011 31
#28,
I had a listen. One logical fallacy after the other. The only strong argument they were able to make is that podcasts are a waste of time.
7:32 pm on April 6th, 2011 32
…Heck, I'm going to join AFEK just to spite them.
7:42 pm on April 6th, 2011 33
I'll tell you, I've been in Korea for many years and I've worked my ass off ever since I've been here. I saved up, invested, and made a killing in business and in the stock market (at one point, we employed as many as 20 employees). I live in a large apartment and drive a nice car. I'm also getting some recognition in some academic circles for my research, which I fund out of my own pocket. You wouldn't believe the jealousy this creates from my co-workers who have been here for less than 5 years, people who are content with a life balancing work and partying. My guess that's what's going on with some of those bloggers. Sour grapes.
12:39 am on April 7th, 2011 34
Teadrinker,
I don't care one bit about what you got or have(cough cough) obtained. Sadly, you again sound selfish. Let me remind those of your past post(#3)…”They certainly aren’t helping me.”
Why can't you get over yourself? After "many years" I would've hoped that you would'nt have become such a selfish person.
I tried to point out your stupid #2 post…"ATEK lost me when, instead of attacking the discriminatory immigration rules and the politicians behind them as being xenophobic, they demanded equal standards for Korean teachers."
In that stupid post you suggest that ATEK didn't "attack" the discriminatory immigration rules. I could've found a better term that "attack" but what the hell are you talking about, doesn't filing Human Rights complaints count for anything in your book? If not, just what the hell did you expect E-2 visa holders to have done other than that? I feel debating further with you is a waste of time, if ATEK had "attacked" politicians for being xenophobic you and MANY others would've been bitching about that. Please show me how and when ATEK as you say…"demanded equal standards for Korean teachers?" I highly DOUBT you can!!!
1:07 am on April 7th, 2011 35
Mikeinseoul@ 25,
I don't see how ATEK "mucked up" things with immigration/health due to "Bean(cough cough) claiming trophies?"
Your definition of "mucked up" is certainly different than mine. You remind me of those F visa holders that absolutely knew how Korean Immigration would react and what they would do after E visa holders pointed out that native English teachers weren't being treated equally. Shame on them, they ought to be stoned to death don't you think, maybe you'd like to cast the first stone?
Wow, your claims are so serious! Why don't you try scratching your itch then maybe your "muck up" will be gone?
1:39 am on April 7th, 2011 36
Q: Where did the Korean buy a ling?
A: At a jury shop.
2:08 am on April 7th, 2011 37
#34,
So, you're saying that the "equal checks" campaign was not meant to pointing the finger at F-visa holders and say "What about them?" out of jealousy, it was a brilliant strategy aimed at attacking the rules? But, wasn't that kind of like chopping your friend's leg off because you're pissed off you've got a gangrenous foot?
PS. Face it, permanent residency grants many of the same rights, such as the right to vote, to a person as citizenship does, whereas a work visa does much less so. Two completely different status. The fact that some F-visa holders work along E-2 visa holders doesn't change that they are, for lack of a better word, not the same.
#35,
What do F-visa holder owe to E-2 visa holders? Really, please do share. This ought to be good.
2:25 am on April 7th, 2011 38
PS. Fact is, if you're on an E2 for more than 5 years and you don't plan on making a lasting commitment to this country, you should ask yourself why you are here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_nationa…
3:19 am on April 7th, 2011 39
ATEK's entire Equal Checks campaign was flawed from the beginning.
Unless one is a criminal, a druggie, or an HIV vector, the check is only an irritant. It just isn't that big of a deal.
ATEK squandered a lot of political capital, public opinion, and the support of F visa holders with long-term connections in the country, by stirring it up as a pressing national political issue with a fake tie-in to human rights to chase egotistical NGO dreams of grandeur.
A real teachers' association would become a trusted brand by developing training and standards for its members. It would assist in making better teachers and more comfortable residents in Korea. It would build relationships with individuals and organizations which could assist teachers with questions, problems, and disputes. And it would do this with the goal of helping teachers… not building bloated empires filled with petty dictators clashing over trivial issues.
Please go away, ATEK, and quit further tarnishing public opinion of foreigners living in Korea.
8:34 am on April 7th, 2011 40
#39,
There was already a real teacher's association (and an association for real teachers): KOTESOL.
8:42 am on April 7th, 2011 41
I agree with everything ChickenHead said in #39, and was rather vocal about it at the time, which is why some anonymous fellows accused me of being the one behind the accusations made against the members (I was not).
Nevertheless, I think after this very rough start, a rebooted ATEK 2.0 may be in the best position to work on the myriad problems facing English teachers and other foreign nationals even.
And I will be there head!
Teadrinker (#40), KOTESOL is a professional organization aimed at individual skills enhancement and professional networking. It doesn't address advocacy very much, which is the void KOTESOL was trying to fill (or at least, I think they should try to fill).
9:12 am on April 7th, 2011 42
While I'm at it…
"Unless one is a criminal, a druggie, or an HIV vector, the check is only an irritant. It just isn’t that big of a deal."
Well, I don't think people who suffer from HIV, or any disease, should be discriminated against…But, the arguments behind enforcing these regulations were rather weak and based on xenophobia, but the Korean was government within it's rights and responsibilities to ensure that the country does not become the refuge of scoundrels and escapists. Therein lies the irony of many of the comments heard in the podcasts mentioned in some of the previous comments.
"ATEK squandered a lot of political capital, public opinion, and the support of F visa holders with long-term connections in the country, by stirring it up as a pressing national political issue with a fake tie-in to human rights to chase egotistical NGO dreams of grandeur."
I don't understand how they could, on one hand, claim they represented English teachers against the discriminatory nature of the new visa regulations, and on the the other, come up with "equal checks", thus contradicting it's own stated goals (and throwing F-visa holders under the bus in the process).
PS. I was opposed to the new visa regulations until I witnessed something that I felt was disturbing during one of my trips abroad. My family, friends, and I were dining at a restaurant in a Southeast Asian country. Sitting at a table across from me was a middle-aged Westerner and a very young local girl, should couldn't have been more than 10. I was hoping this was a teacher and his student, but eavesdropping on the conversation I started to suspect otherwise. My skin was already crawling by the time the creepy foreigner started naming the countries he had been to and got to "South Korea".
9:15 am on April 7th, 2011 43
…Or, should I say, I was completely opposed to the new visa regulations until I witnessed that.
9:23 am on April 7th, 2011 44
Teadrinker wrote:
A couple points.
First, discrimination in South Korea vis-à-vis HIV infection is that all HIV-positive people receive mandatory intensive health care to keep them healthy and alive. Few other countries do that and a large influx of people who are HIV positive, or a growth of the domestic population with that condition, could bankrupt the system.
Second, when the average North American is THIRTY times more likely to be infected with HIV than the average Korean (1 in 200 versus 1 in 6000), you can scream "xenophobia" all you want, but South Korea is doing right by its residents (including non-infected foreign residents) by maintaining its bulwark against new cases.
The stigma arguments fall flat.
10:13 am on April 7th, 2011 45
#44,
Sounds to me like you're making an argument for institutionalized xenophobia.
Remember that sign that went up a few years back one of the red-light districts when one of the prostitutes turned out to have been HIV positive?
11:04 am on April 7th, 2011 46
If HIV had been treated like smallpox or ebola, it wouldn't be nearly the problem it is today.
Instead, that emotional, first-level, short-term liberal thinking I often speak of, marketed an HIV infection as a protected identity equivalent to race and gender.
Regardless of intentions, the result is more HIV infections, more heartbreak, and more misery.
It is correct that Korea screens out criminals, druggies, and HIV positive foreigners.
Korea has a DUTY to protect the health of its citizens over the "human rights" of non-citizens.
Smokey,
Minimalizing the importation of a fatal, communicable disease is NOT xenophobia. It is responsible public health management.
Making it a political or ideological issue is one of the contributing factors to the size of the problem it is today.
11:07 am on April 7th, 2011 47
Smokey, if I were advocating mandatory testing only for foreign residents, then there might be an argument there about "institutionalized xenophobia" (as if a country has no business subjecting outsiders to a bit of scrutiny before they possibly put down roots), but in fact I advocate regular HIV testing for everyone, <a>including ROK nationals.
11:20 am on April 7th, 2011 48
#41,
There are two kinds of ESL teachers in Korea. One is professional and involved in his or her community, the other is a member of the insular expatriate community. I doubt many of the ATEK members were members of KOTESOL. Just saying.
11:22 am on April 7th, 2011 49
#47,
"I advocate regular HIV testing for everyone, including ROK nationals."
Regular, yes. Mandatory, no.
11:25 am on April 7th, 2011 50
#46,
I don't disagree. I'm saying that the underlying reasons for the tests are not based on logic.
11:28 am on April 7th, 2011 51
The problem, Smokey, is that viruses and killer bacteria don't give a frying frog about your "xenophobia" and human rights.
Mandatory testing saves lives while bringing a population closer to zero incidence.
Voluntary testing assumes that the people who made the unfortunate choices that got them infected in the first place will all be smart and proactive enough to get tested early.
Tell me where that's worked.
11:30 am on April 7th, 2011 52
Smokey, the underlying reasons for which policy are illogical how?
11:43 am on April 7th, 2011 53
#52,
The E-2 visa policy was a knee jerk reaction to the arrest of that pedophile. One of the politicians behind it claimed that foreigners are far more apt at committing crimes (which is a bold faced lie) than Koreans. When challenged about her assertion, she claimed she had read it in the newspaper. She was unable to quote which newspaper or the name of the reporter. Yes, public policy based on tabloid news. Extremely logical, don't you think?
12:20 pm on April 7th, 2011 54
"Nevertheless, I think after this very rough start, a rebooted ATEK 2.0 may be in the best position to work on the myriad problems facing English teachers and other foreign nationals even."
ATEK 2.0? I think they are up to, at least, ATEK 3.5 by now.
But it doesn't matter. The whole thing needs to be reformatted and a new program written.
The complex structure of ATEK, designed for building resume-padding fancy titles and propping up budding egos, is a hindrance to any real accomplishment… and will only attract people who are interested in official-sounding form over productive function.
Sincere people who really want to help foreign teachers will leave as soon as they find most of their time and effort is going into maneuvering through a complex manufactured system of meaningless hoops that are designed to promote almost everything other than helping foreign teachers.
Certainly many people here have irritatingly experienced such systems… except, in industry and government, the system must still be functional enough to show some degree of accomplishment.
12:24 pm on April 7th, 2011 55
#54,
Yes, and based on some of their press releases, it really is like a high-school student council.
12:43 pm on April 7th, 2011 56
Okay, Smokey, you've lost me.
In #46, ChickenHead was talking about HIV testing. You said, in #50, that "the underlying reasons for the tests are not based on logic."
I asked (#52) "the underlying reasons for which policy are illogical how," to which you responded (#53):
So you're saying that the HIV testing for E-2 visaholders was a knee-jerk reaction to Christopher Neil? I don't think so. In fact, I know from talks with people well before that arrest that that is not true.
It seems you've jumped from HIV testing to criminal background checks, which I would agree had something to do with Christopher Neil's arrest.
But we were talking, above, about HIV testing. So again, the underlying reasons for the HIV policy are illogical how?
As for Christopher Neil, while his arrest provided the context for implementing criminal background checks for E-2 English teachers, that was actually an attempt that was long overdue to fill a gaping hole in the recruitment procedures for teachers abroad, especially teachers of children.
Christopher Neil's arrest did not create the need for background checks, it only pointed to their urgency.
2:59 pm on April 7th, 2011 57
#56,
Are you one of the few who actually believes that everything in the Patriot Act was written after 9/11?
The HIV test may have been planed before that incident, but it didn't prevent the politicians from exploiting it, and in the process make arguments in favor of it that were based of half-truths and flat-out fabrications.
3:09 pm on April 7th, 2011 58
KOTESOL runs seminars. That's it. The KOTESOL oganization does not want to change things for the better in the ESL field in Korea. They just want to serve punch and cookies.
3:13 pm on April 7th, 2011 59
I'm forming my own association, it's called TAK-E (Teachers' Association in Korea of English, or alternatively Teachers' Association of Korean-English). Our mission statement is as follows:
We will endeavor to have all E2 visa holders kicked out of the country for two reasons. 1) because they represent a serious threat to the burgeoning Korean-English dialect (a threat which we are admittedly blowing out of proportion as evidenced by their poor track record of getting Korean English learners to speak in English and the prevalence of unintelligible English catch phrases found in Korean pop culture); and 2) because it will improve job security for us F-visa holders.
3:15 pm on April 7th, 2011 60
#58,
I'd rather have cookies than cow patties.
3:21 pm on April 7th, 2011 61
#58,
Join TAK-E.
Right now, you're a man barely alive
We can rebuild you.
We have the technology.
We have the capability to build the world's first teaching machine.
Steve Austin, you will be that man
We can make you better than you were before.
Better. Stronger. Faster.
3:22 pm on April 7th, 2011 62
.. .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eFn8Cgcx8g
3:39 pm on April 7th, 2011 63
Smokey wrote:
Um, just like setnaffa accusing me of referring to our previous president as Bushitler, you are bringing up a wholly irrelevant point that underscores you don't know what I think about it anyway.
Is this how you support your argument that voluntary HIV testing, which you have so far not demonstrated has been effective anywhere in the world, is the way for South Korea to go?
Can you please show me a Korean-language news sources citing Christopher Neil as a reason to implement mandatory HIV testing for foreign teachers only?
3:57 pm on April 7th, 2011 64
#63,
The timing speaks for itself.
4:12 pm on April 7th, 2011 65
#63,
It's not "wholly irrelevant" (and I don't consider calling it such a denial on your part, and therefore I'm entitled to conclude that my observation was right on target). It's obvious that I was referring to how politicians are opportunists. Just as 9/11 was an opportunity for the Republicans to pass every rule, regulation, laws, and by-laws they've been dreaming of in a package (The PATRIOT Act) that Democrats wouldn't dare oppose given the ensuing post-9/11 political climate/witch-hunt, Korean politicians jumped on the opportunity on the new visa/HIV testing rules for their own political gain. Remember that in South Korea, one of the favorite canards used to pass any law that seeks to control a segment of the population is that the law was created to protect the youth.
4:14 pm on April 7th, 2011 66
…Yes, I'm saying that it had less to do with public health than it had with political opportunism and social engineering. There.
4:19 pm on April 7th, 2011 67
The timing of what? You're assuming an explosion of interest in English-language K-blogs about Christopher Neil corresponded with a sudden burst of interest in HIV testing in the Korean press or Korean institutions that did not exist prior.
I know first hand from conferences in 2003 and 2005 that mandatory HIV testing was being pushed aggressively long before anybody in Korea except his former co-workers and maybe a few unfortunate kids knew who Christopher Neil was.
At any rate, universal or near-universal testing is <a>becoming the new gold standard:
I would go further than the 0.1% benchmark, which is merely 1 in 1000.
South Korea, which pays for mandatory comprehensive HIV/AIDS treatment, has infection rates of only 1 in 6000, but it is in a position to keep that number down and it has a financial incentive to do so.
4:20 pm on April 7th, 2011 68
Please, Smokey, one of your tinfoil-hat rants at a time.
4:23 pm on April 7th, 2011 69
The links above about mandatory testing seem to have gotten lost. See HERE and HERE.
4:33 pm on April 7th, 2011 70
#67,
"You’re assuming an explosion of interest in English-language K-blogs about Christopher Neil corresponded with a sudden burst of interest in HIV testing in the Korean press or Korean institutions that did not exist prior."
No, I'm stating that the implementation is linked to it.
#68,
Hypocrite.
4:45 pm on April 7th, 2011 71
#68,
To drive the point further: you have a blog which showcases your rantings, I don't.
4:51 pm on April 7th, 2011 72
I'm a hypocrite for what? I have stated no opinion on the Patriot Act, which you brought up and I feel is wholly irrelevant to this. I have been in conferences prior to Christopher Neil's arrest where mandatory HIV testing was being discussed and pushed in authoritative circles. Unlike you reading about stuff in K-blogs, I'm actually going out and getting my proverbial hands dirty.
But let's play your game for a minute. Let's assume that Christopher Neil's arrest really did prompt not just the urgency for criminal background checks but also mandatory HIV testing (even though you've shown no such evidence).
My question then, even if everything you contend were true: So what? You have not addressed the weaknesses of opt-in HIV testing versus mandatory testing (or even opt-out testing). You just don't like it because you think it all came down because of Christopher Neil, but that has nothing to do with the feasibility or efficacy of any of the options.
Again, assuming everything you're saying about Christopher Neil precipitating HIV testing is true, rather than the Patriot Act, let's use the Southwest Airlines incident as an analogy.
Prior to Southwest Airlines 812 being forced to make an emergency landing in Yuma, Arizona, everyone assumed that the short-haul workhorses of the budget airline industry were okay. After all, we hadn't heard any problems, so everything must be just peachy, right?
Well, after a six-foot puncture forced down the plane (fortunately with no loss of life), the authorities decided the prudent thing to do would be to check all similar aircraft, starting with the older ones of the same type that were built around the same time.
But in your mind, that would be hysteria, right? That would be illegitimate, right? They're overreacting because of Christopher Neil, er, SW812, right?
Won't someone think of the human rights of the airplanes?!
4:53 pm on April 7th, 2011 73
Smokey, like it or not, what it comes down to is that if my plan is implemented, lives are saved.
If the status quo remains, as you suggest it should be, lives are lost through (a) new infections and (b) currently infected finding out too late for their lives to be "saved" through South Korea's comprehensive HIV/AIDS care.
But at least they've still go their human rights, amiright?
5:05 pm on April 7th, 2011 74
#72,
There you go ranting again…Hypocrite.
#73,
Still ranting? Do you ever give it a rest?
5:14 pm on April 7th, 2011 75
Smokey wrote:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I'm involved in the public health field. Saving lives is a passion of mine.
If that means trying to drive home a point that clueless whiners with a sense of entitlement don't seem to grasp, then I tend toward the rant.
I'll end for now, I guess. Because at least ChickenHead gets it.
7:39 pm on April 7th, 2011 76
Evidently no one wants to name the expat bloggers heard trashing foreign teachers in podcasts in the 2nd part of the story about the failure of ATEK. At least two of them have been on this iste this week and somehow skipped posting on this thread.
8:33 pm on April 7th, 2011 77
#76,
They know they'd be sued for some of the appalling comments they've made, as they should be. They know that F-visa holders are far better connected, and generally financially secure, than they are. They aren't the freaks and losers that they so desperately try to paint them to be. Many are business owners, government employees, academics and professionals.
8:35 pm on April 7th, 2011 78
#75,
Someone is pulling your leg.
8:41 pm on April 7th, 2011 79
Teadrinker, in #39 and #46, I don't think ChickenHead is pulling my leg.
8:57 pm on April 7th, 2011 80
I'm not saying it's Chickenhead.
9:00 pm on April 7th, 2011 81
Smokey? About what? He seems to seriously believe everything he's said to me.
9:05 pm on April 7th, 2011 82
I admit. I was pulling Kushibo's leg.
I think we should give AIDS to all poor people.
9:09 pm on April 7th, 2011 83
That's on page 439 of Paul Ryan's Medicaid restructuring proposal.
10:33 pm on April 7th, 2011 84
#82,
Oh, my goodness. I don't agree with everything you have to say, but I like your dry wit.
10:35 pm on April 7th, 2011 85
#81,
You still don't get it? Did you read #59 and #61?
10:56 pm on April 7th, 2011 86
25 or 6 to 4
5:08 am on April 8th, 2011 87
The Expat bloggers who trash foreign teachers, (who've been here longer than 5 years), in the podcasts posted in part 2 of the series about ATEK sound like:
Simon and Martina of "Eat Your Kinchi"
Zenkimchi
Michael Hurt of ??? blog
and others who should be identified. They should be named for being the negative hypocrites that they are. If they hate foreign teachers so much then do it in their blogs so readers can decide for themselves if they want to continue to support them.
If these listed names are not true then listen to the podcasts in part 2 of the ATEK series and post who they are. There are some others on those podcasts who are also very negative towards teachers.
5:22 am on April 8th, 2011 88
ArchieB, I have not listened to the podcast you're referring to since, well, since it came out, so I don't know which hypocritical comments you're referring to.
But off the top of my head, I can't imagine Metropolitician (Michael Hurt) being "very negative towards teachers," given his very vocal criticism of groups like AES and the Korean media in general.
But like I said, that's off the top of my head. Were you to present me something unfairly denunciatory he said on there I might look at the recording anew.
9:45 am on April 8th, 2011 89
88- Don't take my word for it. Listen to the two podcasts posted in part 2 of the series. In fact, since you seem to know other bloggers, please identify all of the bloggers who trash F series teachers and teachers who have been in Korea more than 5 years. It's eye-opening.
9:53 am on April 8th, 2011 90
"ArchieB, I have not listened to the podcast…"
Don't do so unless you feel like reminiscing about high school.
9:58 am on April 8th, 2011 91
ArchieB (#89), I really don't care to listen through the whole thing again, so can you point me (through a time code) to roughly where the incriminating remarks are? And maybe a rough idea what you find incriminating? (That they're trashing F-series visa holders is helpful info.)
I'm not saying that you're wrong, so please don't misunderstand me there. It's just that I have a lot to do today and I may have to "multitask" while I'm listening, so it's better if you can direct me to where.
And I don't know all the bloggers. In person I know about a dozen. I could probably recognize some of their voices, but I've never met Simon and Martina.
10:03 am on April 8th, 2011 92
Oh, never mind, ArchieB. I see that the clips are just 18 minutes and 5 minutes, respectively. I can muddle through that. I'm curious who referred to F-series visa holders as "House ni88ers."
Being straight outta Compton and all, I find it both quaint and deeply offensive when pasty White people who went to college use the terminology of a historically oppressed underclass to refer to their own perceived plight.
10:25 am on April 8th, 2011 93
For the purpose of quick typing, I will refer to F-series visa holders as Fers. I will refer to the E-series visa holders as Eers (pronounced Eeyore).
In the 13-minute snippet, it is Stafford who makes the comments about Fers being "old school" and needing to change their way. Frankly, I think he's got it backwards: The old Fers have been around long enough to know what's what, and it's probably the Eeyores who can learn a thing or two about professionalism in Korea. But that's just me.
The guest in the 13-minute segment (I think it's the guest; that shouldn't be hard to find out) is suggesting teachers fifteen years earlier (circa 1999) may have been freaky. He related the BFA story (big fu¢kin' American who throws everything off the counter at the mom-and-pop because they supposedly wouldn't sell him cigarettes) and suggested that AFEK (the Fers' response to ATEK) was full of BFA types. Um, okay. Stafford reeled him in a bit, but only just slightly.
"There were some freak ten years ago," is what the guest said. The female host (?) whose name I'm not sure of but she is Canadian, related one such freak smearing his feces on the wall.
The male guest (?) is suggesting that the Fers could marry into their visa so they were able to bypass the degree checks and what-not. A fair point, to be sure, but this is part of the "English teachers back then were freaks" meme, so it's a tad harsh, methinks.
More smears: AFEK is defined just by what they're against (i.e., ATEK), which seems a tad harsh. They are "psychotically obsessed" and sending information to Anti-English Spectrum that guy says (and if you do that, "you're fucked… you're low"). I really wish I could tell you who that is, but I don't know. I don't think it's Metropolitician, who has a more lilting voice (Metro has an F4 visa, not an F2, so I don't think it's him).
He goes on that they're "self-absorbed." AFEK is "the last throes of these people." They will destroy the community for their short-sighted ends. Stafford agrees that they're short-sighted.
Stafford makes the valid point that Fers who are personally opposed to criminal background checks set off alarm bells. (I personally am in favor of background checks for all teachers, not the copout of "equal" checks for all, which could mean none for anybody).
In the podcast, they seem to be in agreement that everyone should have one, and they fault ATEK for "clumsily" going for consistency.
The male host also calls them "paranoid schizophrenics" and suggests the Fers (or at least the AFEK people) are racist KKKers like AES.
"They're so obsessed over this one person," the male host says. Which person is that? Since this is a snippet, I can't tell. Is it Mr Hellmann?
He suggests that this "one person" is like Hillary Clinton, with the Fers obsessed with her like the Republicans were with Hillary, allowing Obama to rise up.
3:34 pm on April 8th, 2011 94
Everyone should listen to those two podcasts in the #2 part of the ATEK story. It's inexcusable for anyone to be talking about legal foreign teachers like that. If AES had said it everyone would be up in arms. Who does these bloggers think they are, anyway?
Now, all AES has to do is play these podcasts and say "There it is. Proof that foreign teachers are all scumbags. Even well-known expat bloggers agree with AES."
3:34 pm on April 8th, 2011 95
Who do they think they are?
6:16 pm on April 8th, 2011 96
I just hope this doesn't all get "swept under the rug" because these well-known expat bloggers have "connections" with Koreans and some apologists. The bloggers should be held accountable for what they said and everyone in the expat community should know what they said. GOD ONLY KNOW WHAT THOSE EXPAT BLOGGERS ARE SAYING TO THE KOREANS THEY KNOW.
6:30 pm on April 8th, 2011 97
ArchieB, the lengthy comment I wrote while listening to the longer podcast is stuck in the spam filter, but I pretty much agree with what you wrote in #93.
I answered your #94 in the long comment. Let's see if GI Korea can fish it out.
7:36 pm on April 8th, 2011 98
Against my better judgment, I actually played the podcasts in the background while doing something else.
It is nothing to get worked up about… as it is mostly semi-coherent potty-mouthed speculative rambling about the evils of F-series visa holders… not really smart-sounding enough to be threatening… or even particularly irritating.
I did wonder about the guy in the background who talks like an indignant hobbit with his nuts in a wobbly vice.
I might add that I have met many drunks, freaks, and losers in Korea… some of which have been around a while on E visas. On the whole, long-term F-series visa holders with Korean wives have been the most functional group… although, strangely, many of them have been kinda boring people.
The worst, by the way, are the druggies trying to escape the scene back home (and failing as soon as they get a connection in Korea) and those who are on medication for mental problems who start self-medicating in a foreign environment that is full of stresses and littered with situations which require heightened awareness and sensitivity.
In the end, these podcasts' net effect on the world is about zero… so, who cares.
7:45 pm on April 8th, 2011 99
#94,
Some people buy a gardening book when they feel that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, while others spray weed killer under the cover of darkness.
8:15 pm on April 8th, 2011 100
#97,
Yes, you're right. In the greater scheme of things, they are unimportant.
I've observed many of the likes of those bloggers come and go in the years I've been in Korea. In the end, most turn out to have been just another recent college graduate with a laptop computer and time to spare.
8:55 pm on April 8th, 2011 101
Kushibo – "Second, when the average North American is THIRTY times more likely to be infected with HIV than the average Korean (1 in 200 versus 1 in 6000), you can scream “xenophobia” all you want, but South Korea is doing right by its residents (including non-infected foreign residents) by maintaining its bulwark against new cases.
The stigma arguments fall flat."
A little bit off the ATEK hoopla – I have a hard time believing the statistical ratios you provided above, but you're the health stats guru, so I'll take your word for it. My guess is, strict S. Korean visa rules are responsible for their lower ratio.
One of the major problems WAS it seemed, the idea of testing for "foriegner instructors" and not "Korean instructors" or Korean nationals in general. I don't know if this sentiment has changed or if current Korean laws actually do entail universal testing. You advocate for madatory testing for "All" in the Hermit Kingdom (and rightfully so), but Smokey and many others foriegners are weary of the Korean double standard and undeniable xenophobia. So, are all people in the kingdom tested on a regular basis?
If a double standard does exist with regard to HIV testing in S. Korea, I could honestly see the 1-6000 ratio drop considerably. SE Asia is a constant haven for Korean males looking to butter whole wheat muffins.
So, if the HIV testing applies to specific visas only, the stigma is well inflated and ready to pop.
10:25 pm on April 8th, 2011 102
#100,
Good point about the sex tourism. Fact is, a significant percentage of the tourism out of South Korea is sex tourism. Case in point, we were brought to a massage parlor by a well-known Korean tour company (be weary (or not) of the tours they off that have a stop for a cheap foot rub. You won't be going to a spa). Based on the signs on the inside of the building, they were strictly catering to a Korean clientele.
10:54 pm on April 8th, 2011 103
#101
I know it's significant, but honestly do not care about that in itself. I'm a pro-butterer myself. All muffins are delicious in their own way. But I know that cases of HIV infections are on the rise all throughout SE Asia, specifically because of sex tourism and to dismiss this reality in the name of patriarchial self-rightousness and stupidity could cause major problems in S. Korea.
6:33 pm on April 11th, 2011 104
98- Why do you so easily dismiss the anti-teacher rants of bloggers like Simon and Martina and zenkimchi? And who are the other people on those podcasts, since it doesn't matter, anyway?
11:47 pm on April 11th, 2011 105
archieb,
"Why do you so easily dismiss the anti-teacher rants of bloggers like Simon and Martina and zenkimchi? "
So a few bloggers drank some beer and run their mouths in an dull stream of consciousness rant that didn't sound nearly as smart as they probably thought it did (or they wouldn't have released it).
It is their right… to look silly.
And it isn't going to change a single thing in the world and it isn't going to affect me…
…and many smart people who hear it will just look slightly skyward with distant smiles on their faces as they fondly reminisce over hanging out with their friends in 5th grade and discussing the intricacies of girls and their cooties.
If I got worked up about all the stupid and pointless crap I hear people babble on about, I'd have more strokes than a juicy on a whiskey diick.
Besides, I frequently compose critical rants of various groups which people graciously dismiss all the time.
In the end, talk is cheap.
I DO get slightly more worked up over people who run their mouths or do stupid stuff that actually gets the public attention and has the potential to affect me…
…from grandma rapers to railroad track sleepers to video-posting pimpdawgs to closet scumbags publicly organizing to fight non-issues that make all foreigners look creepy and stupid.
Now, if you think I have missed something here… and their podcasts actually could have a negative affect on something important to me, please tell me and I will be all over it.
Otherwise, it is probably best to let it go…
…but don't forget it… as there might be a great chance to use it against them somewhere down the road if you are really that upset.
1:51 am on April 12th, 2011 106
#105,
Yes, I'm with you that if they did accomplish one thing, it's proving that people on podcasts are not nearly as smart as they think they are.
8:37 am on April 13th, 2011 107
105 and 106-If someone in the Korean media had said the same exact things about foreign teachers, what would you have said? Why let zenkimchi,Simon and Martina, and others get a free pass on trashing foreign teachers?
10:16 am on April 13th, 2011 108
Because they are not The Media?
Dude… I want to share your outrage… but they just seem so… unimportant.
Once again, why is this a big deal and what do you think we should do about it?
6:00 pm on May 28th, 2011 109
108- Those bloggers claim to be foreign teachers in Korea yet they put the rest of us down every chance they get. Do they sound like good people or phony hypocrites?