By Here is some more USFK news for everyone via the Marmot’s Hole who shares this article from the Kyunghyang Shinmun about what they call “USFK Tyranny In Pyeongtaek”:
It has emerged that United States Forces Korea (USFK) in Pyeongtaek, Gyeonggi Province, is effectively exercising “the right to crack down on and punish” foreigner-only entertainment businesses.
USFK is exercising thorough control in the fields of health, hygiene and public order. This includes entry by armed US military police into entertainment establishments and demands that employees present proof of identity.
Based on crackdowns, USFK is indiscriminately declaring “off limits” measures that effectively amount to suspension of business. According to entertainment businesses, 33 out of 40 establishments have been declared off limits or received warnings in the last five years. [Kyunghyang Shinmun]
Read the rest at the link or over at the Marmot’s Hole but to say this is tyranny is nonsense. USFK has every right to tell their Soldiers to not frequent an establishment. The US military does this in the US as well. Every post has in the US has their own list of off limits establishments for various reasons.
The reasons establishments in Korea are often put off limits is for bar fining and underage drinking. Just to show that the issues between USFK and the bar owners outside of Camp Humphreys is nothing new does anyone remember when they hung a banner outside the base saying “Commander Michael J. Taliento Jr., You go back to Afghanistan again”. Colonel Taliento who was the post commander at the time cracked down on the human trafficking and underage drinking going on outside the post at the time which caused much anger with the locals back then.
USFK has been under a lot of pressure in recent years from the US congress due to the prostitution that occurs in the juicy bars outside of US bases. However, as I have been stating for years that the move to Camp Humphreys is a perfect opportunity to clean up these villes by putting bars that hire 3rd country nationals off limits. This would mostly eliminate the human trafficking issue because the bar owners would have to hire Koreans which are harder to traffic in. With the influx of families into Korea the ville culture has got to change and in my opinion the old way of doing business in the ville has got to go and it appears USFK is moving in this direction.
She hasn’t seen...
9:33 am on May 12th, 2011 1
You left out the part that is new and is news:
USFK effectively placed the bar off limits because a foreign national employee refused to show a town patrolman her ID? That seems to have crossed a line — the line between patrolling and policing, or worse. Are we starting to create another Lt. Davis reign of tyranny? The Kyunghyang Shinmun use of the word may be appropriate.
9:46 am on May 12th, 2011 2
P.S. According to AFN radio, there was a scheduled protest by the bar association outside of Osan AB Thursday morning.
P.S. #2 There is at least one bar on the off-limits list that opens anyway and caters to non-SOFA patrons. I guess town patrol may be going in there with KNP to check patron ID’s, which may be considered further harassment and interference with the business since the place is already off-limits.
Does town patrol go into Norae-bangs and check IDs? I’m sure the KNP would object to that.
9:46 am on May 12th, 2011 3
GI Korea,
Please make sure to include Kyunghyang Shinmun in the TITLE of the post in future articles that are sourced from Kyunghyang Shinmun so that I know not to waste my time reading the rest of the article. Same goes with Hankyoreh.
Thank you!
10:23 am on May 12th, 2011 4
USFK’s arbitrary decisions, lack of transparency, selective enforcement, and multiple standards, is a fertile ground for corruption.
While USFK certainly has the right (duty!) to protect its servicemembers, it also has a moral obligation to work fairly with ALL of its “good neighbors” regardless of how much golf they play or how many functions for officers they sponsor.
USFK should release a written list of their expectations for clubs to follow to be on-limits for servicemembers… and the well-defined and non-arbitrary actions which will happen as a result of violations. They must then insure these rules are followed by all clubs equally… and they must not overstep these rules.
But they won’t do that… and corruption sees an opportunity. Sometimes there is more corruption than other times.
I don’t follow the day-to-day gossip of the villes any longer… but if I understand this correctly, Anjung-ri no longer has Filipinas? Is this a Hump-only policy or is this USFK-wide… that Osan, always known for enhanced corruption, doesn’t follow?
Am I going to have to change my Compared to Your Filipina Juicy meme?
You can read the latest one here, in case you missed it.
http://rokdrop.com/2011/04/27/army-spouse-bloggers-suicide-post/comment-page-1/#comment-417182
Also, it is illegal for USFK to ask for ID on Korean soil… and that includes asking it from servicemembers. Further, it is illegal for Korean police to ask for ID simply to enforce a USFK desire in a situation where no crime has been committed.
Abuse and corruption start when the governed let the governors start violating their own laws for the sake of convenience.
1:05 pm on May 12th, 2011 5
CH is correct!
Also, it is illegal for USFK to ask for ID on Korean soil… and that includes asking it from servicemembers. Further, it is illegal for Korean police to ask for ID simply to enforce a USFK desire in a situation where no crime has been committed.
Abuse and corruption start when the governed let the governors start violating their own laws for the sake of convenience.
Just ask Leon.
2:16 pm on May 12th, 2011 6
I don’t fully understand. This seems within a commanding officer’s authority: I declare a certain establishment off limits, and you, my subordinate, will not go there. But how do we get to this: I will send my military police off base to investigate the host country’s citizens and aliens on its territory?
4:03 pm on May 12th, 2011 7
I think the person involved was within their rights to refuse to show their ID. I do not know the specifics; but assume it was an off-base incident.
I think the USFK commander was within his rights also to make a suspicious place off-limits to the troops under his/her authority and protection. I assume there is an appeals process and the owner can follow that.
Everything else added here seems to be a “red herring”… They are certainly under no obligation to tell anyone anything about a policy that could easily be required to change without notice depending on factors we don’t know about…
6:23 pm on May 12th, 2011 8
@6,
It is within any commanders authority (unless otherwise directed by their superior) to place a location “off limits” for that commands subordinates only. Whats happening here is some commander at a base is writing their own non-written policy and enforcing it at their discretion. Usually this is ok but when dealing with foreign nationals you ~really~ should check with your own senior command before implementing this. The whole “a Filipina refused to show her ID so we’re placing this location off limits” is stepping over the line.
There needs to be a USFK wide posted list of what can be used to put any location “off limits” for that area. I’m not talking a local commands “do not go there” type of off-limits, I’m talking the big “MP’s bringing you to jail” type. Unfortunately this would sew up too many lucrative loop-holes for people.
And people its not the commanders that are the corrupt ones, its the civilians under them responsible for giving the commander their brief about those establishments. The easiest way to ensure a location doesn’t get placed off limits is to simply not put its name on the list of places to be checked or the list of places for the commander to review. As a bonus unless direct evidence can be found, these people have plausible deny ability about not knowing about a certain bar being left off the list.
As for people asking ID’s, on Korean Government Officials (basically the KNP’s) are legally allowed to require your ID. Now MP’s can go around asking and you can kindly tell them to fck off and there is nothing they can do about it. That being said, if your a service member you are required by the UCMJ to present military identification anytime a military official acting in an official capacity asks for it. Later when you get back to base, if your identified as not presenting your ID you ~will~ get into some extremely deep sh!t. So while you didn’t violate host nation laws, the soldier did violate military law. If the UCMJ doesn’t apply to you, then yeah they.
8:17 pm on May 12th, 2011 9
Someotherguy,
Better double-check that.
KNP cannot walk up to people peacefully engaged in normal activity and demand ID.
Korea is no longer a police state.
9:35 pm on May 12th, 2011 10
@9,
Except this is SK not the USA. “Law” here is a very stretchy term and subject to constant reinterpretation. You should check the immigration regulations again, non-citizens must present identification anytime a government official asks.
11:17 pm on May 12th, 2011 11
Someotherguy,
“‘Law’ here is a very stretchy term and subject to constant reinterpretation.”
That is not exactly true. It is subject to selective enforcement and selective application… just like everywhere else… but the Law is still the Law. In this case the law is clear.
The law is violated in this case because there is no publicity, nobody with any power or motivation to bring attention to it is affected, and it is expedient for everyone involved.
If an activist was illegally asked for ID and went to court over it, the law would be followed and USFK would have to change their actions.
2. “You should check the immigration regulations again, non-citizens must present identification anytime a government official asks.”
Hmmm… you seem to be confusing the abilities of KNP and Immigration. If an immigration official walks with USKF, perhaps they can randomly ask for ID… or there may be restrictions on when they can do it. I am not sure.
KNP cannot arbitrarily ask for ID from anyone, citizen or foreigner.
11:54 pm on May 12th, 2011 12
Of the two villes in Pyeontaek, I’m guessing this incident occurred at Anjung-ri because I don’t think Osan has an agreement the the bars in Songtan “not to employ Filipino women.”
That said, if the girl didn’t show her ID they could only go by the assumption that she was filipina. I don’t know how much experience the town patrolmen have in recognizing who is filipina and who isn’t, but it’s not always that obvious. Besides the possible Vietnamese or Thai that might work for a time, I sometimes mistake tanned Korean girls for Filipina.
If you’ve been to Anjung-ri recently, you would also know that there are a number of mixed-race girls (Korean citizens) working there who could be mistaken for any number of nationalities. These girls have put up with more crap in their lives than any of us could know. I could easily imagine the response some of them would give if some USFK town patrolman demanded that they show ID.
1:12 am on May 13th, 2011 13
@11,
Peanut it pretty clearly states that any non-citizen is required to show ID card if requested by a government official, pretty sure its referring to them acting in an official capacity. And yes a KNP patrolling an area can arbitrarily stop your foreigner looking a$$ and request you show your Alien Registration Card (ARC) or other form of identification. Refusal to do this is grounds for them to detain you while they confirm if you have a visa and are wanted for any crimes. This has happened before, I’ve seen it with my own two eyes. An English down here in Daegu thought they exact same thing you did, and guess what, he got his a$$ tossed in jail for the night while they waited till the next day to call immigration. And while I’m pretty sure there is a computer system the KNP’s could of used to find it out, they made him wait till the next morning.
Do not play lawyer with the local police, you will lose every time. This is South Korea not the USA, Canada or the UK. They do not care about foreigners, they have no compulsions breaking legal rules when dealing with us, you think their gonna give a damn about doing something they already can legally do? As a registered resident you are required to have your ARC on you at all times and be ready to present it to any government official requesting to see it. Can’t get more simple then that. Now go back to your bridge.
1:38 am on May 13th, 2011 14
Someotherguy,
“Peanut it pretty clearly states that any non-citizen is required to show ID card if requested by a government official”
What, exactly is “it” that pretty clearly states these things?
“Peanut”? “Now go back to your bridge.”?
Awww… that’s not very nice.
Say… you aren’t still sore that your vast knowledge of Wikipedia-based nuclear engineering didn’t put your reactors into cold shutdown about 6 weeks ago as promised, are you?
2:05 am on May 13th, 2011 15
My experience with the “off limits” policies is that a place has to be pretty bad to be declared “off limits.” Plus, for every place that is declared “off limits”, there are others that should be on the list but they know how to get away with whatever they’re getting away with in the first place.
As for the “protest” by the “bar association”, well, who’s their leader? Songtan Sally?
2:07 am on May 13th, 2011 16
C’mon, Chickenneck, what are some of the chants the “bar association” will do at the “protest” ?
2:13 am on May 13th, 2011 17
The article is perhaps a response to the restriction placed on many Anjung-ri clubs in late April. Not sure the reason; but at least a couple were open again a week later, maybe all of them.
Somewhat related; to anyone who has been at Humphreys for several years, the ville is visibly deteriorating. I believe a large factor is the elimination of curfew. This has allowed many Soldiers to take alternatives to the ville, many go out and spend evenings in nearby Korean cities or Seoul. By and large this is a positive, likely unanticipated, result of lifting the curfew.
7:31 pm on May 13th, 2011 18
“Peanut it pretty clearly states that any non-citizen is required to show ID card if requested by a government official”
USFK “government officials” have absolutely no authority over civilians who aren’t here under the SOFA status. What do you think would happen if an American MP asked me for my ID? I’d tell them to stick it unless they can show me evidence that they have the authority to do so under Korean law.
12:23 am on May 14th, 2011 19
It’s funny. Pretty much everything has been laid out here, and it’s all happened before. MP’s should not be off base harassing random Irishmen, Canadians etc for their ID’s. You see, there is another dirty little secret. They rarely ID black guys for fear of running into your off Nigerian or what have you. IDing Asian looking females is way over the line.
8:38 am on May 14th, 2011 20
I always hated the off-limits shit. As far as I’m aware prostitution is illegal in the ROK is it not? If that’s the case, then why are there establishments listed as off-limits for prostitution? If they know that a certain business is involved in this activity then why is it still running? Why don’t the KNP’s shut these businesses down? The off-limits list just seems like a way to take away more freedoms for military personnel.
6:32 pm on May 14th, 2011 21
#20,
You never heard of cops accepting kickbacks in the form of cash or freebies?
7:23 pm on May 14th, 2011 22
The Korean media complains about American soldiers and prostitutes and blames it all on USFK. The Korean media complains about all of the prostitutes that are brought into Korean by Koreans with no checks by Korean authorities and blames it all on USFK. The Korean media complains about all prostitution in Korea and blames it all on USFK. The Korean media complains when USFK cracks down on Korean bars and restaurants that are havens for prostitution. What’s the next headline? You can be sure it will be something like this- “The Korean media complains _______ prostitution in Korea _________ blames USFK.” Just fill in the blanks.
8:02 pm on May 14th, 2011 23
Teadrinker,
Military cops can’t really get kickbacks on a large and organized scale.
The worst of the worst club owners play golf with military leadership at all levels.
If a “rogue cop” decides to start demanding kickbacks, there will be a complaint within hours.
But if a dirtbag general lets a couple of colonels with connected Korean wives be in charge of which clubs are off-limits, they use a scumbag cop as an enforcer to buffer themselves… and the clubs remain quiet for months as there is nothing they can do… until the cop gets so greedy with his side scams that somebody makes a public stink and, for a VERY short time clubs become vocal… and then the shakedown is stopped in exchange for silence and the clubs go back to making money.
Everybody covers their azzes and the cop is faced with 20 years if he rats or 2 years if he takes all the blame… even though his crimes included physical violence against subordinates and a smuggled firearms collection in his apartment… things that would get any other GI years and years.
That is the very short version of the Lt. Jason Davis story.
For some reason USFK puts an awful lot of people with connected Korean wives in charge of things like construction and contracting and club off-limits… and, every now and then, they get caught with a matress full of hundred dollar bills… but, mostly, nothing happens no matter how obvious it is that something shady is going on.
These scams come and go every couple of years.
8:58 pm on May 16th, 2011 24
@18,
If you actually read what I wrote then you’d realize I wasn’t referring to US “Government” anything. I’m talking Korean police officers and Korean officials (this is the actual designation they use for police, detectives, immigration and special agents). Go ahead, next time a Korean Police officer asks you for ID / anything tell him to “fck off” and see where that gets you.
Then again, idiots will be idiots.
9:54 pm on May 16th, 2011 25
Someotherguy…
Korean police officers can’t arbitrarily require you to show ID. Period. The end.
Maybe you and your diick friends gave probable cause with a criminal appearance, suspicious behavior, and anti-social actions. Who knows?
But, without a reason, Korean police can’t just demand ID. Sitting in a bar after an arbitrary USFK curfew is not probable cause for criminal activity.
You don’t have to say “fck off” to challenge this… and you don’t have to submit to illegal activity.
USFK cannot demand ID on Korean soil. They cannot demand it of Koreans. They cannot demand it of Fillipinas. They cannot demand it of Canadians or American civilians. And they cannot demand it of servicemembers… as that violates the Korean laws which protect all of the non-servicemembers on Korean soil.
Actually that is not entirely true.
They are allowed to ask for ID and check for a swollen prostrate if all Japanese reactors are in cold shutdown.
Hahahahahhahahahah!
Ah… you were so crappy to me when I suggested the problem with Fukushima was larger than anyone was saying based on the desperate actions of the workers.
Now, you are so crappy to me for criticizing the illegal actions of USFK and their South Korean KNPA puppet lackeys.
It must suck going through life so angry, frustrated, and wrong, peanut.
11:14 pm on May 16th, 2011 26
One other thing…
I’m not entirely sure an immigration official can ask for identification without probable cause of an immigration violation… which, once again, is not satisfied by sitting in a bar after an arbitrary USFK curfew.
Article 50 of the Immigration Control Act only allows immigration officials to demand document “if it is necessary for conducting the investigation as prescribed in Article 47″.
In Article 47, “The immigration control official may investigate foreigners suspected of falling under any of subparagraphs of Article 46″
In Article 46, there is a list of offenses… but there is no immigration violation or criminal activity listed for breaking USFK curfew, drinking at late hours, or having a military haircut.
It would be nice for a real lawyer to give a non-binding opinion (I’m looking at you Dr. Yu).
Of course, there is always probable cause when it is desired by law enforcement… but, if contested, the Korean court would find in favor of the law… as Korea desperately wants to look modernized in their legal system…
…much the way the stinker agitator won his court case after fishing for contrived conflict to assist in his graduate degree in NGO Funds Acquisition at Activism University.
Now, if you wish to site something other than “it says” or “they say”, I’m listening.
Fabricated USFK propaganda is not a source, by the way. They have a track record of misleading and outright lying about such things…
…the best example is the raising of the drinking age to 21 to “comply with Korean law” even though every bottle of alcohol in the entire country has a big, fat 19 written on it. Stars & Stripes backed them up, too.
I e-mailed pictures of bottles with translations and a documented explanation of Korean law to the USFK mouthpiece, locally known as Stars & Strips, for a couple of months… and was ignored.
After those ducks were in a row, I sent it all to the Stars & Stripes Home Office where not everyone is a lazy hack preferring their “news” to be pre-written by a USFK PAO.
The prompt result was the most limp-diick correction imaginable… which disappeared from the searchable archives within months.
But enough of those fond memories… now it is time to generate more.
Someotherguy, show ANYTHING that backs up your repeated assertion that Korean “officials” can walk up to people in public or private places with no probable cause and demand identification.
I’m calling you out.
But even it it turns out you are right and I am wrong, I think you will respond with little more than name-calling…
…which makes you the peanut, Peanut.
5:05 am on May 17th, 2011 27
USFK thinks they have jurisdiction over any person who is a foreigner in Korea. I have to catch trains real early in the morning and some of these patrols would ask me where I am going. I always tell them “None of your F***king business. I also filed an ICE card complaining about their harassment and the smack answer I got back was “It’s for your own protection” Yet I don’t see none of their punk leadership doing anything about their conduct in Korean public places such as on trains like drinking, trying to hit on every girl, and using descriptive adjectives with every other word the F bomb. By the way, I have long hair and am almost 62 years old.
5:16 am on May 17th, 2011 28
#27 If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to be concerned about. Move along citizen.
5:35 am on May 18th, 2011 29
Dr. Yu,
We need some legal consultation over here.
8:32 pm on May 18th, 2011 30
Dear Chickenhead,
Thanks for your consideration but I don’t do legal counseling in the web, only trolling
Well … actually I have something to say about this issue: The last time I have been to Songtan I have been to some of those bars targeted to American soldiers and I have to say that I felt good. There was not trouble there and people seemed very busy trying to relax from their stress drinking, dancing etc …. I even got a free beer from an unknown soldier that was really drunk and seemed like he wanted someone to chat, but I was not available at the moment.
Why Am I saying this??? Well, I don’t know … I just want everybody to chill and have a good time, ok ???
10:43 pm on May 18th, 2011 31
Uh-oh.
You are scaring me, Dr. Yu.
Let me tell you why.
I have met a lot of people… CIA agents and special forces operatives, advertising consultants and fashion models, international lawyers and airline pilots and scientists, etc.
I am none of those things… but I can hold my own in a conversation with all of them.
And it generally takes me less than a couple of minutes to find that the CIA and SF guys are supply clerks, the advertising consultants are undercover hookers wanting expensive drink of colored water, the international lawyers and jumbo jet pilots and scientists are English teachers, etc.
And the NUMBER ONE sign of this is that they do not wish to discuss even the most basic aspects of their jobs.
A real one will have ten great stories and fifty bitter complaints… and will, without thinking, quickly answer all sorts of basic questions about their education and job and how they got their job… happy that someone is showing interest.
That includes the real SF guys who will not necessarily talk about operations but will be happy to share the misery of their training.
Lawyers rightfully don’t like to give specific advice off-the-clock to strangers… but they will happily speak of law fundamentals and will have a good knowledge of why they exist and how they fit into the legal framework… and are pleased that someone is showing interest and asking intelligent questions.
Fake lawyers always have the same tired lines that hide their complete lack of basic law knowledge and the more complex follow-ups… “I don’t like to discuss work”… “I don’t talk about the law outside the office”… and the offensive, “I’ll be happy to answer your questions if you will pay my hourly rate of 500,000 won”… which gives a further excuse of, “Actually I think I had too much to drink to give you good advice,” when I whip out 500,000 won and ask for one hour of answers to legal questions after preparing a pen and paper.
Now, I am not making any exact accusations here, Dr. Yu… but I am relating trends and observation that have been UNFAILINGLY accurate… and have served me very well in filtering out the talkers from the doers.
While specific “what should I do” legal questions don’t always get Internet lawyer advice, the legal concepts we are discussing are fundamental aspects of Korea’s post-dictatorship legal philosophy… which an average lawyer will have the immediate answer to…
…and, like an average Korean eager to explain The Wonders Of Kimchee and Four Distinct Seasons, an average Korean lawyer is eager to explain concepts of Korean law to any foreigner who shows even the slightest interest in the Korean legal system.
So.
That’s where I stand on the issue.
Disappointment is the emotion I am feeling right now.
10:55 pm on May 18th, 2011 32
Impostors beware. You can’t fool ChickenHead and kushibo.
7:51 am on May 23rd, 2011 33
Dear Chickenhead,
Sorry for my late reply, but I´m so busy lattelty …..
I’m sad to know that I disapointed you. It was not my intention but please understand that I have no pleasure playing the lawyer all the time because most people don’t like lawyers, so I find it inconvenient to disturb them with my “lawyer things” …..
Have a nice day !!!!