By I saw over the weekend the popular US education documentary Waiting for Superman that attempts to show what a mess the US education system is:
The fact that this recent teacher cheating scandal in Atlanta was just uncovered only further highlights this fact:
Award-winning gains by Atlanta students were based on widespread cheating by 178 named teachers and principals, said Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal on Tuesday. His office released a report from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that names 178 teachers and principals – 82 of whom confessed – in what’s likely the biggest cheating scandal in US history. [Yahoo News]
The movie focuses much of its attention on how the teacher’s union have pretty much screwed up the US education system with their backing of politicians that ensure that tenure isn’t touched, which leads to making it impossible for superintendents to get rid of bad teachers. With the facts presented in this film it just confirmed to me what I already believed about public sector unions. The problem I believe with public sector unions with collective bargaining rights is that they collect mandatory dues that they than use to help get union friendly politicians elected who hook them up with ever sweeter pay and benefits not to mention ensuring tenure stays in place even for those that don’t deserve it. A private company would go out of business with such an arrangement, but with government it just raises taxes. This is no way to run a government and one of the main reason why the US pays more for education than anywhere else in the world, but ranks poorly against other OECD nations.
Probably the most outrageous thing they showed in the film was how in New York bad teachers were pulled out of classrooms and put into what they called “rubber rooms” where they mostly slept and read books all day for full pay for up to 3 years since they can’t be fired. These “rubber rooms” ended up being eliminated after being exposed by this film.
The documentary also goes on to highlight the success of charter schools especially those in poor neighborhoods. According to the facts presented in the film these charter schools are proving that kids in poor neighborhoods can learn and succeed if they are in a school environment conducive to learning. Some of the schools in Los Angeles and New York they profiled in the film are amazingly bad. There was a school in LA that in the past 40 years 40,000 of its 60,000 students dropped out.
There are weaknesses with this film though. The biggest one is that the fact Michelle Rhee is so highly profiled in the film gives the teacher union types a reason to discredit it because of her own alleged ethical lapses that were recently uncovered. Also the movie did not even touch the effects that students not proficient in English are having on test scores and how to address this issue. The film touched on it a little bit, but I think it should have emphasized more the effect poor parenting is having on student achievement as well; it isn’t solely the education system and bad teachers that are to blame for the education problems.
Overall I thought the films criticism of the teacher’s unions was very well done, while the success of the charter schools I would like to see some more facts and statistics to better prove their success. Despite some of the weaknesses of the film I think it is definitely worth checking out for those interested in the US education system. I know a number of educators read this site so I am definitely interested to hear what they think about this film as well. Is this movie accurate or is it the equivalent of a Michael Moore propaganda movie?
3:16 am on July 8th, 2011 1
GI Korea, we’ve discussed this several times. Our white and Asian kids perform at world-class levels. Our average is pulled down by historically marginal groups, not nefarious unions. Nevertheless, our scores are rising – significantly including minorities. And the foreign education systems that outperform ours are unionized. Read the Daily Howler – daily!
5:26 am on July 8th, 2011 2
Of course the scores are rising — the teachers are correcting the test. Unionization for Teachers (in America) does not work. It allows bad teachers a secure job, when they should be fired. Read the Daily Howler – daily, if you need to be told what to think.
5:30 am on July 8th, 2011 3
I’m not surprised by the cheating item. I bet it is being repeated across the country.
No Child Left Behind has reached a high enough percentage that needs to pass that even average to good schools are beginning to fail in one or more demographics, and a lot of people are losing their jobs. The county I worked for missed the yearly progress is special education students only, and they got rid of the entire board and replaced many of the principles and more of them and vice principles left for other counties after seeing the writing on the wall.
Schools were also shifting heavy into “teach to the test” — and cheating was soon to follow…
I have no answers for how to fix the system…..I’ve heard nothing that seems like a real winner.
I am for school reform.
But, I believe, until reform takes place across the culture in the homes, you’re laregly whistling in the wind.
If parents are not pushing their kids to care about education — if mom and pop (and more often than not – just mom) shows apathy toward education, very few of the students from those homes are going to give a crap. One or two here and there might become inspired by a teacher, but for the most part, the bulk are going to get little out of their time in school…
5:46 am on July 8th, 2011 4
@1- That would be great if America was all white and Asian but it is not. White and Asians perform better because they go to better schools than people in poorer neighborhoods. Every American kid should have the opportunity to receive the same quality education. That is not happening now.
Based on the facts presented in this film the lack of accountability of teachers is one of the problems with the US education system.
5:51 am on July 8th, 2011 5
Get the Federal Government out of schools. No child left behind was/is a mistake.
Kind of like a Company run in the Army, where you put the slowest person up front as pace setter. To slow everyone down.
But #3 is correct. If the parents are not pushing education, no amount of government programs will help.
Who was that “Tiger Mom” again?
6:42 am on July 8th, 2011 6
Wisconsin teachers got fake sick notes so they could go to Wilwaukee and act like a mob.
Indiana isn’t teaching cursive writing any more.
Illinois isn’t testing writing skills.
Yeah. The teacher unions are a problem. But not the only one.
Romans 1:22.
7:56 am on July 8th, 2011 7
Here’s a WTF? moment that supports this thread
http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=2230405
on-line testing in 2014? sure that’s perfect, no cheating there.
near the end of the article it talks about AP exams; how many students are enrolled in AP testing considering they suck at writing so bad they won’t test it? Also, “it offers some freedom” freedom for what? prepared to be on the government teat?
I’m at a loss here.
10:42 am on July 8th, 2011 8
We all know S Korea has its own share of faults and stupidity. But I think US politicians should really study how education is done in places like Finland and Korea which had highest rating for education in recent Times (?) ranking of nations.
Here’s a difference in the attitudes I notice. Yes you see some S Koreans who think they are the best and the chosen race but there are the other more sane ones who are always looking to other nations for benchmarking and to learn from. I doubt any politician in US would do the same or do it publicly (to avoid offending people who think US is #1). You just don’t hear about US politicians looking to outside of US to learn how to do something better.
1:36 pm on July 8th, 2011 9
I was disappointed to learn that Michelle Rhee supports Dream Act
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/state_edwatch/2011/07/michelle_rhee_touts_the_dream_act.html
1:38 pm on July 8th, 2011 10
Retired GI 2, scores are rising on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, against which there have been no credible accusations of cheating.
setnaffa 6, the red state of Indiana is showing good old-fashioned common sense if they’re really dropping cursive writing. I spent many hours trying to learn that and never got the hang of it. If I want someone to be able to read a note, I use the very legible printing I learned in first grade.
John 8, both Finland and South Korea have teachers’ unions. Is that the secret of their success? Or is it their homogeneity? We, the USA, just aren’t homogeneous. If we want to improve, we’ll have to design education for children with the histories they have, not the histories we wish they had.
2:00 pm on July 8th, 2011 11
#10
Yes both Finland and S Korea have teachers’ unions. I never said that’s their secret of their success. And I never said anything about history. Don’t understand why you bring up ‘history’ at all.
Let me tell you why US education is failing compared to at least S Korea.
Quality of teacher
In S Korea, becoming a teacher (1 – 12) means you were a good student in college with good grades. In US, becoming a teacher means you were a mediocre student in college (not all but generally). Not saying becoming a teacher in US is easy but basically you can just do the basic minimum (aka passing grades) to become a teacher. In SK, you don’t become a public school teacher by just doing the basic minimum. No way. Even if you earned the credential (which isn’t easy to begin with), getting assigned a teacher slot in desirable area, like Seoul, is hard. Speaking from personal experience. Basically becoming a public school teacher in SK is very competitive.
Priority in public policy
During the latest budget crunch of local govts in US, which area got cut the most and earliest? Public education. If you tried to pull the same thing in S Korea, you will see riots in the street.
Ambiance of public school
I hear it’s become more lax but pretty much it’s given that in schools in SK, students come to learn. Students come with the expectation that they are there to learn. Having gone through a semi-inner-city high school in CA, I can tell you learning school material is the LAST thing on the minds of many students I saw. In my ‘regular’ english class, more than half the class time was spent by the teacher yelling at the kids to sit down and be quiet. In high school. Only when I got into an AP english class did I see the kids actually sit and listen to the teacher.
Homogeneity
And don’t bring up homogeneity to imply SK somehow has advantage when compared to US. Have you not heard about the hatred between Gyeongsangdo Province and Jellado Provinces?
2:27 pm on July 8th, 2011 12
John 11, I bring up history because the groups with low educational attainment have a history of dispossession, marginalization, exclusion, and for some, slavery.
On the other hand, despite all errors of policy, our middle-class kids perform at world-class levels.
2:32 pm on July 8th, 2011 13
my online access is limited, so I’ll leave a few brief remarks today and come back tomorrow with more thoughts.
Did you really mean that, GI?
In any case, that ship sailed way back in 1619 when the first African slaves arrived in Jamestown.
Actually online testing cuts down on cheating. Student responses are monitored in real-time. If students were marking correct answers in unison or going back and changing wrong to right at the end of the test, those tests would get flagged by the company that makes the test, and there would be an investigation. The great thing about online testing is that we get preliminary results back the same day. We stand around in the conference room biting our nails as we wait for the scores to appear.
The track record for charter schools is very mixed. The Daily Howler has lots of great posts about what test data show and do not show about charter schools. Keep in mind that even charter schools whose students sre selected by lottery are still a self-selected group of students whose parents cared enough to try to get their kids in.
I noticed some commenters comparing attitudes of the students. Maybe the difference in attitudes can be traced back to the parents. If a student does poorly on a test in the US, it is the teacher, the school, and the district which are held 100% accountable under NCLB. I understand that parents cannot be held accountable by law, but it is Korean parents’ high expectations that drives student success. A Korean kid who got a law score on a test would walk in the door trembling while anticipating the parents’ wrath. In contrast, parents of our lowest performing students may not care or may blame the teacher and the school, not the kid. Because US students face no significant consequences either way, it’s a wonder most actually do try to pass, but the weaker kids often quit when the questions get harder or if they’re just tired. When a kid gives up and starts randomly clicking answers to get through the test, it’s me who’ll be held accountable for that failing score, not the kid. This spring two 3rd grade boys blew off a quarterly math test. They ignored several reminders about doing computation on paper and told me they could figure out the 2 and 3-digit addition and subtraction problems in their heads. They got scores in the low 60s. I got permission from the principal to pull them out of PE and retest them. The second time they got scores in the high 70s. A bilingual TA phoned both homes. One mom refused to believe her son would blow off a test. These weren’t disrespectful trouble-makers, either, just ordinary, pleasant boys who didn’t feel like working too hard on a math test whose scores mattered to their teachers but not really to them. Pulling kids otu of PE to retake the annual tests mandated by NCLB isn’t an option. Once submitted, the test score is final. The only time students are genuinely held accountable is in high school, when they must pass course final exams to get a standard diploma. Some students in our high school have retaken tests several times in order to pass.
A year or two ago, TheKorean posted about a public charter school with an elite prep school curriculum. While searching online for more info, I came across a parents’ Q&A forum. The most common question asked by parents: Is there a lot of or too much homework? And the second most commonly asked question? Are the classes or is the curriculum really hard Considering that the parents asking these questions are academically ambitious for their children, what can we infer about parental expectations of student success?
2:56 pm on July 8th, 2011 14
Fresh off the boat, dirt poor Asians with no money have children who excel in poor schools. The underfunding of the schools didn’t stop them from excelling.
2:58 pm on July 8th, 2011 15
#12
What did the Koreans experience from 1910 to 1945 under Japanese?
Answer:
dispossession, marginalization, exclusion, and for some, slavery.
What did the Koreans experience when the kings were weak/evil?
Answer:
dispossession, marginalization, exclusion, and for some, slavery.
And what do you think about what I posted?
3:13 pm on July 8th, 2011 16
John 15, South Korea beat the odds and deserves tremendous admiration. North Korea didn’t, and its regime has to go. Have I told you about the Glans Plan for Korea?
1. PRC stays out.
2. ROK annexes DPRK.
3. USA gets out.
John 11 was a good comment, bringing out facts I didn’t know and emphasizing points that need to be remembered.
3:34 pm on July 8th, 2011 17
Teachers can be part of the problem (I’ll elaborate more on that later) but IMO, it all starts at home with the parents. My daughter is a perfect example. She did very well in elementary school but once she started junior high, her grades went down. I intervened; by having one-on-one sessions with each teacher to find out what was going on. I found out she wasn’t completing homework and other assignments so I got each teacher’s email address, gave them mine, and we stayed in constant communication so that I always knew when assignments were given, tests were coming up and what homework was due. The school also instituted an online system where parents could log in and see their student’s progress/status (this also included homework assignments, test grades etc) which I monitored. This way, I knew when she was supposed to be working on an assignment, if she had homework due or if there was a test coming up for which she should be studying for instead of sitting in front of the TV.
Immediately, her grades went back up and I continued on this way until I was sure that she’d reached a level of maturity where she understood that it’s not cool to settle for mediocrity. She’s now going into her senior year with a 3.7 GPA, which includes several AP classes.
Some peole may view this as being wrong but I also made her a deal; for every “A” that she brings home on her report card, I give her $25 BUT – one “C” (or below) negates 7 “A’s”.
Another important thing is parent-child communication. Every day when I get home from work, we have a nice talk about our respective days. She tells me all of the stuff that went on at school that day, from her various teachers and classes to who got in a fight, or who’s mad at who for this and that. And no matter how tired I am from work, I sit there and listen and show that I’m interested. And although it really isn’t necessary anymore, I still ask her from time to time if she has homework or if there’s a test coming up.
Now – teachers. My daughter had an 11th grade teacher that was just horrible. He showered the students with tons of homework, mostly lengthy writing assignments which he never bothered to collect or grade on time. Guess how long it took before the sudents figured out it wasn’t worth it to put any effort into the assignment since he was never going to read them anyway? He would ask for them weeks after they were due, and would assign arbitrary grades based on some formula pulled out of thin air or his mood for the day. An effort that would get an “A” one day would get a “C” the next with no rhyme or reason. Very discouraging for someone who’s actually trying to get a good grade.
There was also another horrible teacher assigned here who taught math and English. My daughter came home complaining that the teacher talked to the students in ebonics (“I’m aksing you a question” or “I be watchin’you”) and asked me how someone like that could be teaching high school (or any) English. And in math class, students were correcting the teacher when she put formulas on the board because most of the time, they were wrong. It turned out that this teacher had forged all of her degrees and had gotten hired as part of the “good old boy network”. She got fired and is no longer teaching at DODDS schools.
4:05 pm on July 8th, 2011 18
#16
PRC won’t stay out.
DPRK doesn’t want to be annexed. I’ve read multiple articles recently where the current elite of DPRK (doctors, bureaucrats) will be at the bottom of the society. Which SK will go to a NK doctor for treatment? The elites of NK know and want the status quo as it is.
USA govt doesn’t want to get out. I guarantee it. Why? PRC.
My point is US politicians and policy makers should start looking at other countries to see what programs work and try to learn lessons from them. I feel that’s not happening because they feel it’s not worth their time, kinda ‘US is #1 syncrome’.
5:52 pm on July 8th, 2011 19
18 Do NOT look at South Korean education. Do not make American kids go through what Koreans do!!
This is another reason why I am more against testing than for it.
I’m in a Korean elementary school now, and I couldn’t see why test scores were so high, then I remembered how many of the kids are going to hakwons after school.
In elementary school, it is supposed to be fun and relaxing, because once they get into high school (and for many middle school), they begin “study hell.” They will spend the majority of their waking hours memorizing in school and then a string hakwons. I wouldn’t believe in putting kids through this type of torture at that age even if they came out of it with highly logical minds capable of analyzing any type of information/situation put before them. But, in Korea, they don’t even get that benefit.
In short, Korean test scores are higher in large part because of the expensive hakwon system and the fact the kids spend hours and hours not just in public school but in these after-school schools.
I do not want to see American children robbed of their youths by sending them to school 10 or more hours a day.
6:12 pm on July 8th, 2011 20
Why are Asian test scores higher in the US? Why are scores in richer neighborhoods?
Are the teachers in rich schools so much better than those in poor neighborhoods? If so, why don’t we film and study those teachers and force the rest to copy their style?
I think in reality, teachers most teachers are not fundamentally different. From what I’ve seen, they pretty much fall within an acceptable range of each other.
I think the biggest difference is what they have to work with.
And that starts at home and the local community.
More is expected out of the children in richer areas. Education is given more emphasis. Parents teach the kids very early on and keep up expectations as the child gets older and starts school. Kids are prepared for school when they start, and that helps education build up their ability.
That is why by the time the students get to high school, you can have advanced and specialty classes that resemble a college curriculum and prepare them for college.
You can’t do that in even average schools in areas where the local community (parents) show apathy toward education and instil that attitude into their children.
You can’t do very much with advanced physics or calculus classes in areas where few of the students come from homes with parents that haven’t paid attention to their child’s education and made them believe it is important. You might have enough kids from homes where parents have cared to have some of those classes, but those students will be the exception, not the rule.
And that is my main point: It is the same for educating the kids in general — teachers must work with the material they have on hand (the students).
It is much easier/possible to do true college prep teaching when your students are capable of doing the work thanks to what they have gotten out of their previous years of education, and what they get out of middle school and elementary school is laregely determined by their motivation, and by and large, motivation starts at home.
In my area, it is largely working class. It has had a high drop out rate until recent years, because it was easy for teens to get a job making not much less than their parents. They could quit school and make enough to have a living.
The result has been a bunch of apathy concerning education. Apathy that continues from generation to generation.
And that is why kids in this area don’t do as well as kids in richer neighborhoods. Not because the teachers in those neighborhoods are much more talented than those in areas like mine.
6:12 pm on July 8th, 2011 21
#19
I don’t mean US ‘copy’ S Korea’s education system. But it wouldn’t be a bad idea to copy demanding quality teachers, the priority given to education, etc etc.
6:21 pm on July 8th, 2011 22
Demanding quality teachers — How much time have you spent in Korea? I mean that as a question, not a snarky comment.
I’ve heard Korean parents complain about Korean teachers, and I’ve taught a fair number of Korean teachers for a year and a half. I am not too down on them as teachers, but I think the parents were right in saying that too many of them are in teaching because it is an easy(ier) job with total job security, and especially because it is difficult for women to find career positions outside of education.
Korean teachers also seem to stick to the textbooks. They don’t spend time developing lesson plans and gathering much outside material to supplement or lead the classes. They pretty much rely on the material the government provides, and that material is not good enough.
There is a reason why Korean parents rail that they have to send their kids to hakwons all afternoon (and sometimes before public school starts), and it isn’t because they believe the public schools are full of quality teachers…
6:26 pm on July 8th, 2011 23
22 might come across as too harsh on Korean teachers.
I don’t think Korean teachers are any better or worse than American teachers in general.
6:34 pm on July 8th, 2011 24
@19 I’d rather have black kids spend extra time in school than being in gangs, dealing drugs, or committing crimes. Blacks have the highest rates of crime, poverty, and incarceration of any ethnic group. If they had the Asian work value, then you wouldn’t see such bleak statistics from blacks.
6:54 pm on July 8th, 2011 25
#10 Glans, Homogeneity really? As “we” Americans, we have one History. It is called American History. If you believe otherwise, then you are part of the problem.
If they wish to learn the history of the countries from which they came, no one is stopping them. But if you chose to come to America or your parents did, you would be best served to learn the history of the country that you now live and call home.
Oh, and the common language might help them to feel that they belong as well. The other option is a local gang that speaks your language.
You never learned to do “cursive writing”? WOW. If someone gave me a note in printed letters, I would think them uneducated. That might soon be one of the ways to distinguish between those of higher education and “those other types”. Granted it isn’t an “everyday” skill. But neither is Trigonometry.
8:39 pm on July 8th, 2011 26
Which American history? The one that says America was founded to be a Christian nation? The fictional one Sarah Palin and the like seem to use as a reference? The one modified by the Texas school board for the textbook selection?
3:52 am on July 9th, 2011 27
@13 – I was being facetious towards Glans comment because saying that the US educational system is better than advertised because whites and Asians are doing well I believe is irrelevant considering our schools are filled with kids of many different races and backgrounds. Our education system has to be one that is adaptable to the needs of all children that enter it. That is why I listed the fact that the film didn’t address how to properly educate students who don’t speak English well as a weakness.
A parent that wants their kids to receive a quality education should not have to be depended on some lotto to get into a charter school.
@10- But can the union members in Finland and the ROK be fired for poor performance unlike in the US? The Korean president is able to arrest and fire teachers in Korea:
http://rokdrop.com/2010/05/27/lee-administration-fires-134-leftist-teachers/
Could you imagine what would happen if that happened in the US?
4:00 am on July 9th, 2011 28
America is a multi-state country and school systems, for the most part, are administered by the states. The primary role of the federal government, so far, had been to establish baseline standards.
Waiting to see when or if they cross that line in the District of Columbia.
4:13 am on July 9th, 2011 29
GI Korea 27, you’ve identified another trait of the successful school systems in Finland and South Korea: the national government controls them.
4:20 am on July 9th, 2011 30
@29- The fact that different states have widely different standards was another criticism that was made in the film.
4:53 am on July 9th, 2011 31
JoeC if I remember correctly, the founding fathers were Christian. If that is true and factual, then that is what should be taught, as it is factual.
I do not know what Palin believes. But I find it interesting that you mention her.
How did Texas modify history? Did it upset you?
Glans, you like the idea of Federal control it seems. While this may work well for a dictatorship, I do not see it as a good thing for a relatively free people, comprised of many separate State governments.
Unless of course, you feel that the individual states should be more tightly controlled and their individual freedoms taken. But then we wouldn’t be the (United) States of America.
5:18 am on July 9th, 2011 32
29 I’ll make the claim again: The reason Korean test scores are so high is NOT due to their public educational system. It is due to families spending too much money crushing their children’s spirit by sending them to hakwons all afternoon, sometimes early in the morning before public school, and sometimes on the weekend.
There is absolutely no way the US should use South Korea as a guide to education.
That isn’t even taking into consideration how Korea’s education focuses on memorization with too little attention to criticial thinking skills – like teaching kids how to find info and process info on their own.
South Korea and Finland are tiny in size compared to the US. Detailed federal regulation of public schools in the US would be absurd.
5:19 am on July 9th, 2011 33
Some of them were deists — the believed in the concept of a Creator, but a few of them expressed strong reservations about literalists’ interpretation of the bible, particularly a deity embodied as a man.
If they intended a Christian national, it was an uncharacteristic oversight of those brilliant men that the neglected to include the words “christ”, “jesus” or even “god” in any of their defining documents.
5:20 am on July 9th, 2011 34
correction: Christian national => Christian nation
7:01 am on July 9th, 2011 35
I feel that the history should be reported as it was. If “a few” had strong reservations about a literal interpretation of the bible, “particularly a deity embodied as a man”, then it should be taught just that way. If the majority believed in the concept of a creator, that should likewise be taught. That would support that the founders were predominately christian and founded a christian nation. But without 100% of the founders in agreement. If it offends some groups today or individuals, well that’s just too bad. It is this country’s history. We certainly are not a Muslim country as our current President would have some believe.
I have always thought that all are welcome here. But those that chose to come should be prepared to adopt the country and all that it stands for. Which means to learn it’s history.
I recall a story a few years back of a female politician who refused to pledge allegiance to the flag. That’s a big deal to me. She should have been kicked out of the Democratic party that day and lost her position. If you have no allegiance to the country, why are you holding public office? For the Pay?
7:23 am on July 9th, 2011 36
Look up the word deist. All western religions and many eastern religions believe in the concept of a creator. It’s a much bigger tent than just Christianity.
In the context of American history, it’s irrelevant.
8:48 am on July 9th, 2011 37
DING DING DING. Settle for mediocrity. That is exactly what a lot of non-Asian kids and parents do. Your daughter is fortunate to have a wise parent who pays careful attention and prods her along. Kids live day-to-day and do not understand or appreciate long-term consequences. Your daughter will feel grateful to you for a lifetime and hopefully show the same active parenting with your grandchildren.
9:16 am on July 9th, 2011 38
Some corrections and clarifications about statements and claims made in “Waiting for Superman” can be found in these links:
When student performance at charter and regular public schools is compared, charter schools do WORSE overall.
Some of the students highlighted in the movie dramatized their situation as different from reality.
“Waiting for Superman” is a documentary with a strong POV and content edited to communicate that POV.
10:03 am on July 9th, 2011 39
JoeC, ask a Muslim just how “irrelevant” religion is. I’m sure they will disagree with your dismissal of religious faith in history.
11:33 am on July 9th, 2011 40
This is a legitimate concern that the Dept. of Ed. is addressing in a Constitutional manner with voluntary adoption of Common Core standards by all but a handful of states, including mine, unfortunately. Our most at-risk students are transient and may pass through several school districts in more than one state before graduating or dropping out. There are gaps in these kids’ education because of all the switching between schools and state curricula. The only people who have any reason to oppose Common Core are educational testing companies that don’t want to lose lucrative state contracts.
5:18 pm on July 9th, 2011 41
Sonagi, as usual very informative comments. That is why I was hesitant to believe the hyping of the charter schools in the film. I thought they didn’t make a very strong case for them in the film fact wise and instead relied on emotions to promote them instead. However, the criticisms of the teacher unions does appear to be accurate. What are your thoughts on that?
Overall it does appear the film is more Michael Moore-ish than accurate. I guess it figures considering this director also filmed Inconvenient Truth that was also filled with inaccuracies.
6:03 pm on July 9th, 2011 42
In every profession, there are bad apples and colleagues who cover for them, including the military, which does not have unions. If union contracts prevent or make it very hard for districts to fire incompetent teachers, then the problem is the contracts, not necessarily the existence of unions themselves. States like mine without teachers’ unions have instead voluntary dues-paying membership in teachers’ associations, which do not have formal bargaining power like unions but can offer advisory and legal support for members. I pay into it so that I can seek support from them if I ever need it.
When debating the role of unions in the workplace, it’s important to remember that unions evolved so that workers could have basic rights like time off on holidays and Sundays, sick leave, and compensation for work-related injuries. Balance of power is important in politics and in the workplace. Employers having tremendous powers and employees having few rights leaves employees vulnerable to mistreatment and exploitation. The growth of illegal immigrant labor and H-2B unskilled worker visas owe in part to employer desire for employees who don’t ask about overtime pay or point to OSHA flyers posted on the breakroom wall.
6:42 pm on July 9th, 2011 43
The black mentality about education needs to change. Black children worship gangster thugs, don’t speak proper English, and wear pants sagging down to their knees. Blacks need to change their culture and respect education.
8:36 pm on July 9th, 2011 44
The main benefit of unions for the worker is pressure in creating contracts. That is why the contracts are as they are.
In my view, the time of unions has long since past. They were necessary to correct significant abuses in the past, but for a long time, in many industries, they have stopped serving a useful purpose and cause more problems than they solve.
And I am sure there are employers who hire illegal aliens to get away with abuse of pay and working hours and working conditions, but where I live, there is a lot of factory work, without unions, and the factories pay the immigrants (many illegal) just like everybody else.
The reason I’ve heard why the bosses are so eager to hire them: Because they work harder and work as many hours as they can get. I helped set up an ESOL program for a friend of mine who managed a factory. The classes were free and came with several small fringe benefits for the workers who came. They wanted the program so the factory would be better at attracting immigrant workers.
11:52 pm on July 9th, 2011 45
USinKorea 44, do you mean the opportunity to learn English attracts workers to that factory? Are you hinting that they are honest, hard-working people who want to be productive members of our society?
11:56 pm on July 9th, 2011 46
Yes, they wanted to create an ESOL program to attract immigrant workers – particularly the growing Vietnamese population, but also the Hispanics, because they felt they got more production for less trouble, but they were not being exploited. They got the same pay and benefits as any other worker.
(There was also a GED program.)
Another one of the bigger factories already had an English program.
12:39 am on July 10th, 2011 47
Unions are bashed as if they are inherently evil. There are abuses, protectionism and good-old-boy-ism in every institution at every level of society. I have no sympathy for protecting incompetence, but let’s not pretend it’s exclusively a union thing.
How many of you think you can still easily secure credit after multiple bankruptcies, like Donald Trump? How soon we forget about the catastrophe created by those Wall Street fat cats. It’s easy to do when they have the special interest means and resources to deflect our attention.
The education system is malfunctioning and unions have issues but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. They can be repaired. They each have a purpose. Think about the world we would be living in today if there were never any unions.
1:50 am on July 10th, 2011 48
#35
Many of the founding fathers were heavily influences by the Enlightenment Movement that was flourishing in Europe at the time. It likely inspired the Revolution — more so that religion. The Enlightenment period came about as a reaction to the constraints of the Church mandated dogma of the Dark Ages. If you didn’t know that then more emphasis should be placed on that in the history books.
A balanced presentation is important.
1:52 am on July 10th, 2011 49
I hate the inability to edit typos
2:07 am on July 10th, 2011 50
48 The Reformation was a religious movement that did more to attack the excesses of the Dark Ages than the Enlightenment – though the two were not mutually exclusive.
Before the founding fathers, there was a foundation laid by Puritans and other very religious immigrants.
Of course, when we are condensing hundreds of years into trends, which is fine, we can’t be too dogmatic…
2:30 am on July 10th, 2011 51
#44
“… time of unions has long since past” ???
My frame of reference may be that of the urban wage making laborers, but even if you live in the mountains of Appalachia you should find some coal miners and ask them what they think about that.
3:00 am on July 10th, 2011 52
USinKorea50, are you sure the Reformation attacked the excesses of the Dark Ages? I’m not.
4:23 am on July 10th, 2011 53
Yes. The excesses in several areas.
Again, this is one of the problems with dealing with trends over the course of centuries (and in a blog comment section). You point out a book and opinions held by Martin Luther in relation to Jews.
Does that effectively pop the balloon on the idea that the Reformation curbed the excesses of the Medieval Church? I don’t think so…
6:37 am on July 10th, 2011 54
Unfortunately, that’s not the case with construction, a major employer of Hispanic immigrant men in my community. The men are usually designated as contract workers even though they are, in fact, regular employees in practice. Hiring them as contract workers saves the employer payroll taxes, including the employer’s 7.5% FICA contribution and workman’s comp, an important benefit for people who work jobs with a high risk of injury, such as construction. These men work hard for sure, but part of the allure is the willingness to work off the books. US citizens and legal residents are less willing to work for cash because they want the rights and benefits that go with legal employment through payroll. It’s not just construction, either. I know of a Brazilian man working illegally at a language institute near Washington, DC. There isn’t ONE reason why employers hire illegal immigrants which is why I used the precise phrase, “owe in part.”
9:29 am on July 10th, 2011 55
I just noticed this in your first comment, Glans:
Historically marginal groups? Do you mean marginalized? Wouldn’t Asians qualify based on decades of defacto and dejure discrimination and exploitation, for example, the Chinese Exclusion Act and the WWII Japanese internment camps? You and I have debated this topic before, Glans. Black and Hispanic same-same, no. Historically Hispanics have very little in common with African-Americans, who were enslaved for 200 years and then oppressed for another 100 years through Jim Crow and segregation. Hispanics have more in common with Asians historically as both groups, like European immigrants, started off on the bottom rung of the economic ladder, and both Hispanics and Asians continue to grow through immigration.
Lower achievement for Hispanics owes to two reasons: lower socioeconomic status of the parents and intra-community peer pressure to join gangs. It breaks my heart when I run into a favorite former student now in middle school, and the teen is wearing a rosary. Even if the teen is not actually a gang member, he or she is embracing gang culture by wearing a gang symbol that repels respectable kids from socializing with him or her. Moreover, the barriers to illegal immigration for poor Chinese, Indians, and other non-Latinos ensure that most who do manage to get here come with education and means. There are Indian adult elementary school dropouts with five kids, but these families will never step foot on US soil unless they’re fortunate enough to have a US citizen immediate relative petition them. Illegal immigration by land changes the demographics of Hispanic immigration relative to immigrants coming from other continents, which in turn impacts student achievement
10:18 am on July 10th, 2011 56
Glans and others might be interested in this Boston Globe story detailing a long-term study of delinquent teenage boys growing up in the 30s and 40s. The conclusion of the 5-page article could easily apply to many poor troubled teens today, keeping in mind that the neighborhood politicians and policemen shared not only the same race but the same ethnicity as the marginalized teens in the study:
I loved the accompanying photo as my family has a similar one showing my uncle with his arm wrapped around my dad’s shoulder, wearing similar clothes and striking similar poses. The boy in the middle looks very much like my dad did then.
11:55 am on July 10th, 2011 57
Sonagi wrote:
A rosary as a gang symbol? A rosary repelling respectable kids?
I haven’t lived on the Mainland US since the 1990s, but I’d never heard of that particular religious item being a common symbol of gang affiliation. But sure enough, Fox News says it’s true.
Still, I wonder if some people are looking at all rosaries and assuming gang affiliation among some kids who might just be religious or trendy.
1:05 pm on July 10th, 2011 58
I didn’t learn about rosaries as a gang symbol from Fox News, Kushibo. I was informed by our bilingual Hispanic staff. Unlike you, I don’t need to use Google to learn about Hispanic immigrant communities since I actually work with that population. As I made clear in my statement that you quoted, not all kids who wear rosaries are gang members, but they are, nevertheless, wearing something associated with gangs.
2:14 pm on July 10th, 2011 59
Low-performing groups came from the margins, but not all marginal groups are low-performing.
When I google rosary, I find this.
My silly spell-check doesn’t know ‘google’ is a verb.
2:38 pm on July 10th, 2011 60
The thing the Boston study highlighted was the affect the environment (neighborhood) had on the boys. It almost hinted at the end that their exposure to, or lack of, positive professional role models might have something to do with it.
I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood. There obviously weren’t any lawyers, investment bankers or engineers living there. The only professionals you encountered on a regular basis were teachers, doctors and police. You didn’t get to know them personally. You met them in their professional status and usually not in pleasant situations.
The people who become role models in the neighbor are those you can get to know personally and seem to have achieved some level of success, even though it may not have been from legal trades that require formal education.
5:23 pm on July 10th, 2011 61
I think the movie touched well on unions, but can’t help but feel that it placed all the blame on unions, which I as a teacher can tell you, whether you feel its biased since I am a teacher, that the problem lays deeper into politics and testing/ things like the no child left behind act, etc.
It raises sentiment against teachers and not against those in power who tell teachers what they have to teach, what scores to achieve on tests, and what they can or can’t do.
7:00 pm on July 10th, 2011 62
Very interesting, Sonagi 56: ‘…men with strong “social ties” were more likely to leave crime behind. Many of the men who had succeeded at it … had done so after turning points that involved committing to a stable social institution such as the military … .’ Congratulations to the officers and NCOs who guided them.
7:48 pm on July 10th, 2011 63
Glans,
Not it today’s military.
It used to be that, for misguided-but-not-completely-hopeless youth, a judge might give them the option of joining the military… as training and discipline had a better chance of “rehabilitating” them than jail.
…and, of course, in a military version of No Soldier Left Behind, non-hackers were physically forced to hack.
Fast forward to today’s touch-feely military where non-hackers get pushed around through the system… pawned off with the idea that the next group will get him squared away…
…and if somebody actually takes and interest, the non-hacker doesn’t get some effective wall-to-wall to induce performance… he just gets paperworked to death… which means nothing to most non-hackers.
Eventually, he gets kicked out and he winds up standing back on the same street corner where he started… until he gets promoted to jail.
Or, at least, this is my basic impression. Anybody in the thick of things agree or disagree with this?
10:14 pm on July 10th, 2011 64
#63
Part of that may be supported by the reports that the fastest growing segment of the homeless population are veterans — despite the opportunities afforded by the GI Bill and of the most lucrative incentives and bonuses we’ve ever seen during most of the last 8 years. I’ve heard of a 23 years old female military medic who claims she is homeless. How can she not find a job? Where is her family?
The Boston Globe story says the study began in 1939 a chose boys about 14 years old to start. They would have been about 20 when World War II ended, about 22 when that era’s draft expired and about 25 when the Korean War started up conscription began again.
Of the old men they were later able to find, 19 of the 52 (little more than a third) had left the life of crime. If they joined the military they were offered a GI Bill that not only provided them with education opportunities to include vocational education and loans to not only buy a home but start a business.
There is no telling if or how many of them may have taken advantage of those benefits but they returned to a thriving economy stimulated by the wars with plenty of low skilled, union protected, factory jobs where they might be able to displace the women who “manned” them during the war, and which paid sufficient wages that a single earner could support an entire family.
10:59 pm on July 10th, 2011 65
@63,
Depends on the individual. I had one case where the soldier in question was a thug, or at least thought he was. The senior NCO’s were under the impression he would never amount to anything and had him in their cross-hairs for booting (get enough Art 15′s and you can be booted on patterns of misconduct). Turns out the only problem was he honestly though he couldn’t hack it and was on a self-destructive course. Used to piss me off on a daily basis until I pulled his a$$ aside and had a serious talk about his potential future and what exactly he thought he would do with his life. Took me some time but I was eventually able to hammer / mold him into a responsible NCO, yes he went from Art 15 inducing PFC (was SPC) to a SGT.
Also had a soldier who upon his initial briefing, when told what time PT formation was, his answer was “SGT, I don’t think I should have to do PT”. Used to greet officer’s with “what’s up”, and thought that a NCO giving him an lawful order was against his constitutional rights. Yeah he didn’t last too long until the command booted him, you can only disrespect NCO / Officers for so long. Guy was an ultra-liberal from ultra-liberal parents, graduate from some ivy-league east coast university. The whole idea of the US Military just didn’t work in his head.
7:08 am on July 13th, 2011 66
Another test cheating scandal, this one in Pennsylvania , brought to you by USA Today, the same paper that aggressively reported on the DC cheating scandal.
12:19 pm on July 13th, 2011 67
#65: Errr, sounds really dumb for an Ivy League graduate? Maybe he was lying about those credentials?
2:36 pm on July 13th, 2011 68
Agree with ChickenHead #63. Kangaji #67 has a good point also. (guy ENLISTED after graduating from an Ivy League college?) I call BULLSH!T!!
However I did have a good SGT working for me that got busted on a piss-test. Damn good tech guy. We made sure he got his stripes back ASAP. I believe his wife gave him a worse ars chewing than I did.
But than I went to Korea and he came to the same unit the next year — and ran into his old girfriend. They both extended —
3:35 pm on July 13th, 2011 69
Sonagi (#58) wrote in response to me (#57):
Perhaps I am misreading your comment, but I am detecting some harshness in your response that I don’t think is warranted.
Are you perhaps mistaking my surprise (that rosaries are widely used as a gang symbol) and my disappointment (that kids who are religious or trendy might inadvertently get ostracized as bad kids) as mockery or incredulity about your claim?
I only mentioned Fox News because (a) that was the first mainstream source on which I found this trend mentioned and (b) I don’t consider them unreliable about everything.
#57 was, thus far, the only comment I made on this thread, but on past posts on this blog and others, I think it is fairly clear that I defer to you as a source of carefully culled information*, thoughtful opinion, and substantial experience on education-related issues in South Korea and now the United States. Frankly, if my reading of your comment #58 is correct, I would hope you would re-read my comment #57 in the way it was intended. On the other hand, if I misread your comment #58, I apologize in advance.
* In this case, my default setting would be to assume what Sonagi has said on this issue is true unless I find some reason to believe otherwise. My experience with Hispanic immigrant communities is necessarily limited while living in Seoul and Honolulu, but I gleaned from Hispanic immigrants in Santa Ana (the heart of Orange County) where I did work fixing up apartments as a summer job when I was in high school that a commonly believed notion that flashing one’s lights at a car driving by with no lights on at night being a way of making yourself a target of attack by someone in a gang initiation may have been rather exaggerated by the media at the time, which in turn reinforced its belief among Hispanic and non-Hispanic OCers.
5:43 pm on July 13th, 2011 70
Thou doth protest too much, Kushibo. Reread your reference to Fox News
and see why I might detect a tone of scorn towards a right wing news source derided by the left as Faux News. After reading your comment, I Googled to see how widely the MSM had covered rosaries as gang symbols using the search terms “rosaries gang symbol” and that Fox story appeared way down on the page. No hard feelings on my end, and hope there aren’t any on yours.
5:51 pm on July 13th, 2011 71
Sonagi 70:
I do
thou dost
he, she, or it doth.