By Here is an update on the case of Private Andre Fisher who was convicted and sentenced to two years in jail recently in a South Korean court. His conviction has led to wild speculation and condemnation by many media outlets trumpeting the claims from Fisher’s supporters. However my experience with GI crime issues caused me to notice many inaccuracies being pushed by Fisher’s supporters. One of the inaccuracies I noticed was that in the June USFK court martial results was that not only was Fisher convicted of robbery, but destruction of public property as well which none of this supporters disclosed in the various articles advocating for his release.
Here is some further information provided by the 2ID PAO that provides further context of what Fisher was convicted of. The Korean court found that on November 19, 2010, PVT Fisher punched a cab driver in the face instead of paying his 14,000 Won ($13.19) cab fare and stole an additional 94,000 Won ($88.56) from the cab. Furthermore, the court found that upon arrest, PVT Fisher caused over 600,000 Won ($565.26) worth of damages to the police car by kicking the back door, breaking the window and causing additional damage. His adjudged sentence was imprisonment for 2 years, not suspended. He is currently being held at the Seoul Detention House.
Fisher’s behavior in the police car hardly seems like someone caught in a mix up as he is claiming. I have to wonder how much alcohol he had to drink that night because Fisher’s behavior in the police car seems like that of someone totally out of control. I also have to wonder if Fisher’s supporters were aware of his behavior in the police car or not? If so why did they mislead the various media outlets by not mentioning such pertinent information?
Here is also some further information in regards to Fisher’s supporters claiming he did not have adequate legal support from USFK. PVT Fisher’s defense counsel is a English-speaking Korean attorney that he chose who is paid for by the U.S. Government. It is important to also realize that US licensed attorneys cannot represent clients in a Korean court and this why Korean attorneys are paid for by USFK. Also present at each trial appearance was a US licensed attorney from the 2ID Office Staff Judge Advocate Office who served as the SOFA Trial Observer. The role of a SOFA Trial observer is not to assist in the defense or provide legal advice. Their role is to ensure that the defendant’s SOFA rights are protected. The trial observer for this trial notes that he did not see any violations of these rights.
PVT Fisher’s court date for his appeal is on August 9th. The appeal will be heard by the Seoul High Court. If the outcome is unfavorable for PVT Fisher, he has the right to submit an appeals petition with the ROK Supreme Court. Fisher’s appeal will be the day that he will see if his sentenced is reduced or overturned. Like I said before it is not unusual to have sentences reduced on appeal in Korea, but in my opinion claiming Koreans are racist among other accusations is doing absolutely nothing to help his appeal. His supporters should stick to the facts that support his case instead of unfounded accusations.
With that said Fisher’s supporters are always free to send me an e-mail offering the facts that support his side of the story. I am willing to publish the facts right here on the ROK Drop for the thousands of readers who frequent this site every day to draw their own conclusions on Fisher’s innocence. Finally just to be clear I am not out to get Fisher, but I don’t like the unfounded criticisms being launched by his supporters which I think is actually detrimental to getting him released. I would be the first to defend someone who I thought was being steamrolled by the Korean justice system which I have done before, but in this case I just don’t see it, but maybe I’m wrong? What does everyone else think?
4:18 am on July 29th, 2011 1
It seems like a rather unusual step for a PAO to reach out to a blogger like this – but I’m glad he did. Obviously, the 2ID leadership realized there was quite a misinformation campaign taking place.
Having said this – I don’t think Fisher’s parents are acting that unusually. However, they are either being selective in which parts of the story they are telling – or they are simply not aware of the facts in the case. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
If they are not aware of all the facts – why is that so? Is it because they only know what Andre has told them – and he is the one who is not telling them the whole story? How much is 2ID obliged to tell the parents? Legally, is 2ID allowed to discuss the facts of a legal case involving an adult?
I think the Fishers have made a huge mistake by speaking so disrespectfully of Koreans and Korean society. As those who have been in Korea for a while know – repentance and an apology that seems sincere can go a LONG way here. It can actually be the difference between going to jail and not going to jail. Americans are often befuddled by how accepting Koreans are of the “he was drunk…give him a break” excuse. But it’s a different society with different social rules. It’s not right or wrong – it’s just the way it is here.
It’s not too late though. In spite of the misinformation campaign and all the slanderous things the Fishers have said – if Andre appears before the judge during his appeal with a clean cut appearance (in a suit if it’s allowed), admits his mistakes, speaks respectfully, and begs forgiveness – there’s a good chance the judge will reduce his sentence or let him off with a suspended sentence or a sentence equal to the number of days already served.
However, if he shows up and it looks like he didn’t give any thought to his appearance (unshaved, hair not combed, unkempt clothes, etc.) and he is defiant – the judge won’t hesitate to send him straight back to jail to serve out the rest of his sentence.
Lastly – and FYI – these days the SOFA trial observer more often than not is a Korean-American JAG officer who understands the proceedings well.
4:46 am on July 29th, 2011 2
Scuffling with police and damaging a police vehicle – well, now we have a much better idea why he didn’t get a suspended sentence.
We should keep this in mind too when the appeal is done – if we hear about it. Given what the damage to the police vehicle says, I wouldn’t mind seeing some jail time, but with the amount of money involved, I wouldn’t be surprised if the sentence is reduced to basically time served and see him freed soon after. I seem to remember similar things happening in previuos cases I’ve read.
Where is he being held now?
Under previous SOFAs, he would be held in USFK custory until all appeals were finished, which could reduce significantly the amount of time served in a Korean prison in many cases.
5:05 am on July 29th, 2011 3
Guitard if Fisher had been repentant and kept an apologetic appearance during the first trial he would likely have been fined and received a suspended sentence then. Hopefully he changes his tactics during the appeal because if he is confrontational he will likely remain in jail.
As far as his friends and family I am willing to bet that they didn’t get the full story in regards to what he did.
5:49 am on July 29th, 2011 4
If he was falsely arrested in the first place the charges of destruction of government property should have been dropped or at least reduced. I don’t condone is behavior after being arrested, but If I was manhandled(which he surely was) by bored KNP’s I probably to would have acted the fool. I still don’t buy that A equals Z. Just because he acted out once being arrested does not mean he did the intial crime.
The SOFA trial observer was probably a Korean-American JAG with little to no effective legal experience(American or Korean), and was chosen for their percieved Korean language ability which probably was never actually formally tested. As for the actual Korean Lawyer, he was probably chosen for the same reason; his ability to speak English. Which would have little to no bearing on his actual ability to try a case in Korean court.
I never heard of legal standard with regards to grooming, but how can you possibly know his demenor or how well he was groomed at the actual trial date? That’s a crock sounds like somebody going out of there way to understand a Korean system that has no logical or legal cohearence to it. The case should have been dropped after the Taxi driver failed to show up for the previous four trials.
This whole case seems like a farce, and the kid seems to have been railroaded from the beginging.
5:59 am on July 29th, 2011 5
I’m not excusing what PFC Fisher may or may not have done that night. But how many times do we read about cases in the Korean court system involving deaths that are settled with small compensation paid from the family to the victim? Why couldn’t this case have been settled with that same “blood money” system?
6:44 am on July 29th, 2011 6
Maj.America wrote:
You seem to know details that ONLY some who was at the scene knows. Are you one of the people that PVT Fisher wasn’t allowed to call as a witness?
I wonder what the percentages are of cases where perfectly innocent people act out and fight with the police and kick out windows.
So…having the cute little Captain from Podunk, GA who doesn’t understand a single word of Korean or have the slightest clue about Korean culture is better than the Korean-American who at least has somewhat of clue?
I have watched said cute little Captain walk out of a Korean court room shaking her head because she literally didn’t understand a thing that just transpired during the trial. And when she got back to the International Law Office, she told Mr. Kim that she didn’t want to do it anymore at it was a waste of time.
The lawyers that the International Legal Office at Yongsan hire have to perform satisfactorily or they are not called back for future cases. And if a servicemember doesn’t like his/her lawyer, he/she can ask that the lawyer be replaced – and with no questions asked – he/she gets a new lawyer. I know this from personal experience.
Who said any such of thing existed?
I never said I did. And that’s why my post says, “If…there’s a good chance…” It’s called conjecture.
I wish I had zero experience in Korean courts – but in fact, I have been to a couple dozen trials in Korean courts.
So…you know for a fact that according to Korean law the driver had to be there in order for the trial to proceed? Or are you
just someone going out is his way to understand the Korean system?
6:45 am on July 29th, 2011 7
5 It could have been, most likely. He would have been given a suspended sentence.
4 Fighting with the police and going nuts in a police car is one of the stupidest things you can do and does speak to credibility.
I’m supposed to take his word over that of the police and cab driver?
For what reason?
10:18 am on July 29th, 2011 8
Guitard is on the money, but wrong about the trial observer in this particular case. . .
God, I wish I could say more.
10:39 am on July 29th, 2011 9
He looks evil.
1:45 pm on July 29th, 2011 10
I wonder if anyone in Fishers family reads this blog? I hope they are, both to gather more info and to strategize better for their son’s case.
Bad mouthing anyone (let alone a whole society) in a court case usually doesn’t turn out well…
2:00 pm on July 29th, 2011 11
#2
“Scuffling with police and damaging a police vehicle”
Umm, I know if you did that in US you will get resisting arrest (or something like it) charge (adding more to jail time) on top of the actual crime. I don’t know, did the Fishers family somehow expect S Korean cops to be more accommodating than US cops when dealing with suspects resisting arrest?
3:11 pm on July 29th, 2011 12
Another USFK Drop member, I think he was ChickenHead, pointed out that there are many strategically placed cameras in the area that should settle the matter of what actually occurred. Now that I read this version of the events I’m thinking that he may be one of those guys who gets belligerent on alcohol and tries to take advantage of what ever is available around him at the time.I don’t really feel much concern about a person who “punched a cab driver in the face instead of paying his 14,000 Won ($13.19)”
3:16 pm on July 29th, 2011 13
I got a bit of flack at the Three Wise Monkeys website for pointing out that there were holes in their reporting that they needed to fill in. Thanks for this post, GI Korea.
3:57 pm on July 29th, 2011 14
“I don’t know, did the Fishers family somehow expect S Korean cops to be more accommodating than US cops when dealing with suspects resisting arrest?”
Actually, they do. Less so if they are making an arrest, I’d think, but it is amazing the amount of abuse cops will take without even making an arrest.
Coming from American culture, it is one of the most unusual things I’ve encountered in Korea.
4:18 pm on July 29th, 2011 15
#13
I checked the postings on Three Wise Monkeys (http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/07/22/the-case-of-u-s-private-andre-fisher-sentenced-to-2-years-for-alleged-robbery-of-a-korean-taxi-driver/) re this incident and noticed post #39 by Angry Army Wife. Got a good laugh.
11:00 pm on July 29th, 2011 16
First, let me begin by saying, that we, the family of Andre Fisher never slandered Korea or Koreans…we have nothing against anyone, nor would we ever be attempting to make this a race issue. Andre is from a biracial/adoptive family and we did not raise him to play the “race” card EVER, nor are we willing to start now!!! I am the sister of Andre Fisher, and yes an avid supporter. We were clearly aware of the allegations of the case, and yes Andre did inform us from the very beginning that he did in fact do damages to the police car after being beaten in the street and thrown in the back of the cruiser with absolutely no clue as to what was going on… He has stated that this was done out of fear and sheer and utter painic, he immediately made restitution for the damages and admitted wrongdoing for kicking out the window. In attempt to find out why he was surrounded by cop cars and being accused of robbing a cab driver when he was not even in a cab that weekend…they found only 13.00 in his pocket upon searching him…he did not have the alleged 88 that was reported stolen. Andre explained that he and a few of his fellow soilders were not even in a cab the entire weekend…nor at the time of the alleged assault and robbery were any of them drinking. Andre was speaking to a friend on his cell phone back in the states waiting for a friend who just be-friended a girl when this whole situation took place…within minutes a cab driver got out of his cab and began shouting that he was robbed and KNP arrived and he, the cabbie, pointed to Andre and stated he did it..This whole time Andre did not even know/understand what was taking place…until he was being thown to the groudn/in fact he still did not know what was occuring. We recently, got the details of the alleged incident and totally disagree. We do not know why the cabbie would just pick Andre and blame him; however, we never talked poorly about Koreans and it is sheer outrage that we would be slandered in this manner. My brother signed on for a second tour of duty in Korea and was considering remaining in the country because he loved it so much..and just recently when I spoke with him he stated that it has not changed his opnion about loving the country…why would we bash..we just wanted the military to provide him with the rights that he deserves,and ensure that SOFA regulations are adhered to…for instance he was not hired an attorney, he utilized a court appointed atty..which is against the military’s agreement. I know this because Andre received documents in prison that were written in Korean and translated to explain that. Also, it was told to us by a military chaplin that Andre is not seeing a SOFA rep. weekly, but only monthly and they told us previously that under SOFA requirments he would be taken food and supplies weekly…again the military..not Korea we have been trying to get assistance from. I would like to see when/where we have played the race card or bashed Koreans…because you are being mis-informed. Please understand..we were told that if Andre made a settlement with the cabbie that this would all be done and over with…I suggested this to Andre; however, he refused because he stated that he did not steal,rob, or hurt the cab driver in any way and he was not going to admit guilt to something he had not done. He believed that justice would prevail and that he would be proved innocent…God Bless, Jill
11:19 pm on July 29th, 2011 17
…and Andre is very apologetic for what he had done to the cop car, he comes from a family of law enforcment officers and understands what they go through each and every day. We do not condone his behavior in the cop car and he is very disappointed in himself; however, we do understand his anxiety/frustration. As I said before he immediately apologized and offered payment for the window.
12:27 am on July 30th, 2011 18
Jill, I have a few questions for you since I have not seen any of this information in any of the news sites.
1) Was your brother wearing a hoodie that day?
2) Have you already forgotten the interview your father and yourself gave in WILK? Your father is heard saying “South Korea doesn’t like Americans, number one, and they HATE Afro Americans”.
3) I believe you’ve made the wrong choice allying yourself with Stephannie White. You will quickly see she has an agenda that may not exactly be congruent to your cause. She has descended into a hatred that has utterly consumed her. Want proof? Look at your facebook page. She LIKEs everything that has negative things to say about Korea but never LIKEs it when you say you are not against Korea or that you are praying for Korea. Ok, that wasn’t a question.
4) Who has seen this video? Why did the commander see it and say it was Andre?
12:28 am on July 30th, 2011 19
For the record, after reading your posts, you are shifting me towards believing Andre is not guilty but you leave out a lot and you do misinform us when you say that you have not tried to paint Korea and Koreans in a negative light.
12:29 am on July 30th, 2011 20
http://media.wilknewsradio.com/a/42844408/bob-and-sandy-fisher-part-1.htm Here’s that online interview.
12:36 am on July 30th, 2011 21
Jill Fisher,
I can completely see a taxi driver getting robbed by a black guy and then blaming the first black guy he saw standing on the street.
I have watched a Korean SWEAR that he witnessed an innocent GI do something that I clearly saw another long-gone GI do.
The wrongly-accused GI, who was just walking along and gawking at shops, quickly became loud, indignant, and aggressive… which made a problem into a BIG problem… and discouraged others from helping him.
The Korean guy meant no harm. He TRULY believed the two GIs were the same guy. They most likely looked exactly the same to him.
Coming from a family of law enforcement officers, Andre should understand that no physical battles can be won with the police… and no victories can be had in the back of a cop car no matter how hard one kicks. But, he is young… so let’s put that aside as a different issue.
Here are the key questions as I see them.
1. What was he wearing? Did it look anything like the clothes in the video from the taxi. Are there photos of him after his arrest?
2. Have you seen the video and, as you feel it doesn’t match his appearance, can you release it publicly to support his innocence?
3. There are video cameras connected to digital video recorders EVERYWHERE in Korea now… especially in Itaewon and other “high crime” areas.
They only record when there is motion, the video is compressed, hard disks are large and months (if not years) of video can accumulate before it is overwritten.
Shop video cameras frequently show the street through the front window… and, if another group of black males exists, they can be identified as being separate from Andre’s group… and their locations and actions can be determined (eg. they are seen walking by Shop A minutes before the robbery and then seen running farther down the street past Shop B,C, and D, after the robbery.)
With effort, patience, and cooperation from a minor authority figure or well-spoken Korean, shop owners would be happy to cooperate and some of this video might still be recovered.
4. The Court of Public opinion can be a powerful force in pushing USFK to be more proactive in defending (or crucifying) servicemembers caught up in incidents such as this.
If you feel Andre is innocent and you believe the evidence supports that, it may help to release as much information as possible… such as locations, timelines, descriptions of his group and the group he saw approach the taxi, statements from his friends/witnesses, etc…
…although, be aware… there are a lot of sharp people here who will look hard to tear it apart. If any facts or events are incorrect, misrepresented, or omitted, they will be sniffed out and there will be little mercy… and there will be cleverly hateful comments that will haunt you for life.
If your story adds up, you will find some supporters here… and some of those supporters may be in a position to push USFK leadership into taking a more active role in assisting Andre.
I am not convinced Andre is guilty and, for a couple of circumstantial reasons I have not stated yet, I am leaning toward him being blamed for something another group did…
…but with so little information, it is impossible to commit one way or the other.
Good luck, Jill
12:49 am on July 30th, 2011 22
Jill Fisher wrote:
Just curious…how did he make immediate restitution if he only had $13 on him?
12:56 am on July 30th, 2011 23
22. The immediacy may be relative…
1:27 am on July 30th, 2011 24
Jill,
You state your brother had no idea what was going on when the police came at. A news article in GI Korea’s first report says that he witnessed 3 men approach and leave the taxi and saw the taxi driver get out and scream robbery and accused your brother. I am assuming the police were not immediately standing beside them and had to report to the scene. — So, it is hard to imagine that he would have no clue what was going on after having witnessed that.
You also say he told the family he did the damage to the police vehicle out of fear and panic and that he has law enforcement people in his family. — Also hard to believe.
Korean police are MUCH less likely to lay hands on someone than American ones. I have not hung around GI areas, so maybe the cops there are more aggressive, but after having seen Koreans manhandle police and the police do nothing, it is also hard for me to believe the police just jumped your brother when he was offering little to no resistence. The damage to the car adds to this because it is a bonehead move that speaks of anger.
I am not saying he was not a victim of mistaken identity. I am not saying he was.
GI Korea said in the first post that the fact your brother refused to make the couple of thousand dollars “I’m sorry” money in order to avoid jail time, because he knew he was innocent, and that does make sense to many us, I believe.
Other things noted in the press and what you have offered do not.
Since none of us were there, including the family, and none of us have seen the video…..here is my wild guess at what happpened:
Maybe your brother was with some other guys and one of them did the actual theft. That would make sense as to why your brother would feel completely innocent and fight the case in court. But, your brother didn’t want to point the finger at the person he was with who did it, so he created the “lily white” innocence story to the point it stretches at least my credibility meter….
Of course, this is just a wild guess based on what is known so far.
1:33 am on July 30th, 2011 25
Well, I don’t know how much the fighting the case hints at innocence now…
Near the start of the radio interview with the father, he says that the guy told him not to worry about it or try to do anything because he was innocent — and would likely only face a fine….
That’s at 50 seconds into the interview.
That damages the idea he was doggedly fighting for his good name when he refused to pay the couple thousand dollars restitution money that would have likely seen his sentence suspended.
1:47 am on July 30th, 2011 26
In the interview, the fahter takes up the issue of a court-appointed attorney (about 1:55 in) and seems to confuse USFK getting a Korean attorney and a JAG attorney.
Just because he did not get a JAG attorney does not mean USFK did not provide him with an attorney. Having read a few dozen cases in the news over the years, and read expat lawyers and people familiar with Korean law, it sounds to me like the family is confusing the difference.
This post by GI Korea reports what the USFK PAO said about what lawyer the guy got and how he was chosen, and that matches what I’ve read about the system in previous cases.
The SOFA does not say an American military lawyer will defend you in a Korean court. I don’t know if they legally could. What the SOFA does say is that a JAG lawyer will observe the trail – which I believe this or the previous post states did happen.
The retired JAG lawyers the father talked to did the family a diservice by giving them wrong information.
It is also important for the family to know, since they have gotten information from those guys, that the SOFA has been revised several times over the past 5 to 10 to 20 years. The family needs to talk to people who are familiar with Korea and its current SOFA with the US.
2:21 am on July 30th, 2011 27
I’ve been accused of silly crap like running over a guys foot on my motorcycle. We are talking a Harley. The way it is configured, it would be impossible to run over only his foot (without demolishing the rest of him) unless he was laying in the road just so with his foot extended… Even if you could do it, it wouldn’t cause injury. So, it was my word against him and 10 of his buddies and the Korean cops. I tried to argue my side but the was no point to it. Even with Korean friends there with me.
He was walking around up and down the stairs playing grab ass with his friends, laughing, when I went to pay the W500,000 sorry money. It sucked and I was lucky to have a Korean friend knock it down by half what the ass wanted. Easiest money the guy ever made.
Moral of the story: I paid and went on with my life and left it behind me. No charges no regrets. Occasionally we have to pay the waegook tax.
2:23 am on July 30th, 2011 28
I should say, I paid the money, he signed the paper absolving me from future claims, I flipped him the finger and cussed him in Korean, THEN left and went on about my life.
2:44 am on July 30th, 2011 29
In the interview, the father claims Korean don’t like Americans and hate blacks. So, the race card was played to that extent at least there.
I would, in fact, agree in principle with much of it. Korean society has been known to enjoy anti-US attitudes as a type of national past-time. It has been an important part of Korean nationalism.
I also agree there is a strong, negative stereotype against blacks in Korean society.
Most of us who have spent years in Korea and commenting here have said more than once that if you are a GI (and pretty much if you are an English instructor) and the cops are called and someone is arrested, it is going to be you.
The question is, however, what the family hopes to gain from talking about this in such harsh terms.
Given what each side is saying the facts are, and given the charges and sentence, it doesn’t make sense to me to be making these derogatory statements.
If Andre was going to be satisfied (enough) with being fined by the court, it would have been a good idea to pay the apology money up front. But, that is past.
If he doesn’t want to see jail time, now that he has been convicted and sentenced, he should do what others have suggested in the previous post: pay the apology money and stop speaking bad about Korea in the press that can be located on the Internet.
Korean society has been known to flip out when they felt insulted by famous people. Making a big stink out of this case, given the chance that he could see a suspended sentence or reduction to a fine on appeal, is not likely in his best interest.
I can understand if someone has such principle that they would rather face the possiblity of jail than admit to a crime they didn’t do or pay apology money for it.
In Korea, however, paying the small money is not considered an automatic admittance of guilt, I believe.
2:53 am on July 30th, 2011 30
Bit of a (related) tangent –
The insurance fraudsters – dubbed “bangers” by the US insurance industry – are pulling the same scams these days in Korea. The Korean spouse of a co-worker recently pulled up to a traffic light and all of a sudden a Korean man started yelling at her to not move because she had run over someone. As she was getting out of the car, she saw a man lying on the ground with part of his body sticking out from under her van. The other man started screaming at her to call an ambulance – which she did.
As she was driving up to the light, she didn’t see or feel like she hit anything. It quickly became apparent that the man was not injured.
But the ambulance came and carted him off.
She ended up paying 1.5 million won.
3:05 am on July 30th, 2011 31
30 But I bet the guy was in the hospital for 2 weeks?
I’ve read that time and time again in cases involving GIs (and other foreigners) where there was a reported injury. Everybody had injuries that took two weeks of hospital stay. I believe I read once that this was connected with Korean law in terms of civil damages.
3:14 am on July 30th, 2011 32
I don’t how much it is now – but up until five years ago or so, each week of required “physician care” was code word for how many million won a person should expect to pay/receive in the settlement (called “합의금” in Korean). In other words, if the authorities deemed the person who was harmed needed four weeks of medical treatment – the perpetrator could expect to pay 4 million won.
There are of course, mitigating circumstances. If it is young adults involved – the mothers might get together and work out a different arrangement if the perp’s family doesn’t have much money.
Whatever the case – the actual treatment required might just be a quick visit to the doctor to make sure the person is OK. But the authorities will still say “four weeks” of treatment is required.
It sounds like a crooked way of doing business to Americans – but it’s just the way things are done in Korea.
7:12 am on July 30th, 2011 33
Again, I sincerely apologize for my fahther’s comments, he was speaking out of sheer and utter emotion…his son had just been incarcerated for a crime he said he had not committed. We as a family will be “taking a break” from all of this media/hoop-la for lack of a better term due to the fact that our intentions were only to help Andre’s story come to light that he was being wrongly convicted; however, we never percieved helping him would actually turn others into stating we are hindering him. We are thousands of miles away from Andre…and totally helpless to the situation entirely; however, as a family we are suffering his loss daily…it feels like we re-live a nightmare each and every day when we wake. We have never been involved in any type of issues with the law/court system prior to this and especially in a Foregin Country so this is all new to us…and unfortunately each time we read these comments our hearts break and we cannot do this anymore. From now on our stance is to attend church, rosary, and just pray. We are done fighting the good fight because we do not deserve/and cannot take the criticism. Respectfully yours, Jill
7:27 am on July 30th, 2011 34
Jill Fisher
You and your family are in my thoughts! Please let me know if you are needing to muster support for Andre and need e-mails, calls or letters. Thanks!
7:31 am on July 30th, 2011 35
Aside from the substantive aspect of this case, such as whether there was enough evidence to convict him, what I find most puzzling is the allegation that Fisher was not allowed to call witnesses in his defense at the trial, in violation of the SOFA.
If Fisher’s version of the story is to be believed, and this is a classic case of “mistaken identity,” then you don’t need to be a genius to recognize that the way you prove this is by calling witnesses to establish your alibi. Fishers’ family claims that he was with friends at a club on the night in question and that he never got in the cab.
It’s hard to believe that Fisher’s defense attorney tried to call these witnesses at the trial and the judge just said, “No” and refused to allow it. Why would he – the judges know the rights under the SOFA and if such a violation occurred the conviction would be overturned and there would be a new trial. Plus, the judge would be disciplined and would look like an idiot. It seems to make no sense. This is the issue I am most curious about.
On a related issue, Fisher’s family claims that Fisher was “outside a night club in Seoul with three friends” on the night in question. I assume that these are the witnesses that Fisher claims he was not allowed to call in his defense at the trial. Who are these people, and where are they? I’ve been following this case and I haven’t seen any comments or posts from these witnesses backing up Fisher’s side of the story. Makes me wonder…
8:05 am on July 30th, 2011 36
There are some inconsistencies. In some, it’s reported he was in front of a nightclub. In some, it’s reported he was in front of the base (I believe the father said this).
I don’t think Jill will be back but I hope she doesn’t give up. She’s right about Korea and it’s treatment of foreigners and GIs in many ways but she made a lot of sweeping generalizations that are one sided. Sure there are many cabbies that are rotten but there are also GIs that are rotten and throw them together and you get two groups who don’t trust each other and flareups more often than one would hope to see. I’ll give Jill credit in one area. She’s not afraid to admit she made some mistakes along the way. She’s not an expert at this. No one should have to be. It’s an unfortunate situation and she’s trying to cope with the information she’s receiving must be overwhelming and she has to determine what’s correct and what’s not. That means she has to backtrack on some of the things she said. I just wish this was more public though. I mean outside of ROKDrop, has the family ever corrected their mistakes? No, instead a growing audience is taking sides based on much of the original information the family has disseminated.
8:23 am on July 30th, 2011 37
Jill,
If you care about Andre, you will listen to advice, learn from past mistakes, and actively get involved in a positive way.
Hours of prayer and daily church attendance will not speak to the judge who is going to make the decision about Andre’s future….
…and, on a side note, God is generally irritated by lazy begging to magically solve the problems that people can solve all by themselves with a little bit of real effort.
Anyway, positive publicity of all the facts, a bit of attitude coaching on everyone’s part, and a reasonable chain of evidence which shows Andre could not have committed this crime will set him free.
Everything else is only the appearance of “doing something” while actually doing nothing.
If you really believe Andre is innocent, the pointed questions and wild speculation on the Internet should have no effect on you. Counter them with facts and build a reasonable case for his innocence.
If you cannot do this, perhaps Andre IS guilty… and if your reasonable and logical support vanishes from the Internet, this will be everyone’s assumption.
If you really want to help Andre, some of the things you can do are:
1. Say some very public and positive things about Korea and make sure it is clearly coming from all of Andre’s relatives and Andre himself… eg., “While he is very disappointed in the verdict, he has great faith in the fundamental goodness of the Korean people and the wisdom of senior judges. He is confident they will consider all the evidence and question additional witnesses the first trial accidentally overlooked. Their superior ability and experience will allow them to clearly see his innocence.” Etc.
Koreans, like pretty much everybody else, push back against criticism regardless of how justified it is.
2. The entire story needs to be written up clearly in a detailed and factual way with absolutely no bullshyt. Explanations and rationalization for things like kicking police car windows should be kept short and factual without whiny emotion.
Expect people to pick it apart… so write it in such a way that little can be read into it… and be prepared to address further difficult questions.
3. All of this needs to be communicated to blogs, American newspapers, Stars & Stripes, Korean newspapers, USFK, etc… so the Buzz on the Street is that Andre is getting a bad deal and Korea looks bad internationally for giving it to him.
If you will not do this out of inability, apathy, or laziness… or cannot do this because the evidence indicates he might actually be guilty… Andre is likely going to jail and any hopes of a military career will be over. He will enter the difficult job market with a bad mark on his record and whatever skills he has.
These steps are only my opinion and there may be a better way of doing things.
If you sincerely ask for further advice, others more involved with both USFK and the legal system may give you very direct guidance which is better than my suggestions.
Once again, good luck.
8:45 am on July 30th, 2011 38
Jill, this site has a history for sticking up for the GI given a raw deal. If the right facts are given, you will find they will go to bat for you. There are folks with a ton of experience here. Ally yourself with those who ask tough but fair questions and be cautious of those who would follow you immediately without questions asked. More often than not, the latter have a strong bias already and are using your case as the cause du jour to cement their already hardened beliefs. And if they own websites, you will be just another notch on their belt for their cause.
9:24 am on July 30th, 2011 39
The past is largely irrevelant at this point.
He was found guilty in court and sentenced. Things have moved to the appeal process with the most important aspect – given the relatively light sentence already given – is to focus on the appeal of the sentence.
The family should just wait for that appeal.
If this were a much bigger crime resulting in a much longer sentence, then I’d say Chickenhead’s advice is good to consider, but given this case, I’d say just wait awhile longer before trying a full-court press to clear the guy.
There is a good chance the sentence will be reduced to a fine and time served or possibly a fine and suspended sentence.
It probably isn’t too late to pay the cab driver a small amount of money that is customary in Korean court cases. It does not count as admitting guilt and shouldn’t thwart any future appeals.
In court, Andre can also apologize profusely for what he admits to doing: the damage to the police vehicle and scuffling with police.
(He might even throw in some kind of language saying he is sorry the whole event took place or something that isn’t saying he did the crime against the driver.)
Remorse goes a long way in Korean courts.
Apologizing for the cop car might be enough.
Actually, I will be somewhat surprised if he is not released once the appeal of the sentence is done.
9:52 am on July 30th, 2011 40
Ms Fisher, I would like to chime in with a few words of advice myself, although it is largely to agree with several prior commenters.
First, I think this site is where you are likely to get the most useful advice from people who are looking at your brother’s case objectively. The Three Wise Monkeys site and Stephannie White may have a different agenda from yours, which is to highlight what they see as gross injustice in Korea; you, I assume, would like to see your brother out of prison and his career preserved as much as possible. (See John’s note at #18.)
We have seen activist blogging like that make things potentially worse because they are, at heart, more interested in furthering their own aims. Here, I think at heart the people are concerned that someone not get railroaded, whether he is an innocent bystander who is the victim of mistaken identity or he is someone who did something wrong that escalated into an excessive sentence, and they have experience with being USFK members.
Per ChickenHead’s suggestion (#21), it might be a good idea to lean on USFK to provide better representation, but I think beating up on Korea in the media is not going to do your brother any favors. Again, that’s someone else’s agenda. I myself have seen plenty of foreigners, including some Blacks, get fair treatment in the Korean legal system. Walking into court with a chip on one’s shoulder is the quickest way to derail that.
That said, the single best bit of advice is to be contrite in court during his appeal. The judges are actually looking for ways to reduce sentences, and contrition and/or mitigating circumstances is one of the things they latch onto. If someone states they did wrong and expresses that they are deeply apologetic, that typically goes a long way with the judges. If he was inebriated at the time and that may have contributed to his actions in the police car, then make that part of the “stating wrong” sentence.
Also, make no mistake, your brother DID do something criminal, referring to his actions in the police car. In fact, not only does it make the original accusation seem more likely, but that behavior now may overshadow the original accusation (for which he may in fact have been wrongly accused). Make no mistake: that is what you’re dealing with now and that is what needs to be addressed. When explanation and contrition are made for THAT, he should forgo the urge to say he was wrongly arrested and so he reacted badly in the cop car; instead he should say he was scared and nervous and so he reacted badly in the cop car.
I hope he gets a chance for appeal. Has anyone in your family talked to the police directly? That might go a long way. On a visit to Korea, that might be a useful thing, especially if it includes paying for damages to the police vehicle. There you can talk about what a good man your brother is.
Usinkorea’s speculations seem sound. You need to consider that your brother, by way of his actions in the police car alone, is no longer an innocent in this matter, even IF it was mistaken identity. Consider that, because that’s how it looks to the people who found him guilty and locked him up.
9:54 am on July 30th, 2011 41
Short version of all this: the ROK Drop collective is wiser than Three Wise Monkeys.
10:12 am on July 30th, 2011 42
I wish I had access to the material on GI Crimes from my old site. I’m sure I had notes on a couple of cases where: harsher than normal sentences were given because the small Blood Money was not paid, and then once that money was given after the first verdict, the appeal saw the sentence reduced to time served.
Kushibo brings up another good point nobody has mentioned yet:
If alcohol was a contributing factor in the crime before the court, mentioning that as part of an apology goes a long way in Korea…..Foreigners have been mentioning that as an oddity for years….That being drunk is taken as a good enough excuse to reduce a sentence, gain a suspended sentence, or even be found not guilty, I believe…
10:22 am on July 30th, 2011 43
Here is an example that reads like many cases I’ve read before:
2:26 pm on July 30th, 2011 44
43. Good advice from all. Long story short, no one is going to prove he is innocent. Too late for that. Pay some money say sorry, for everything. Swallow the pride and go home. This isn’t America. The isn’t the US legal system. This “conviction” in Korea is unlikely to follow him but he may be done with the military.
9:35 pm on July 30th, 2011 45
First, thank you to ROK Drop for bringing out more details on this case.
Second, I deeply hope for a resolution that is fair for both Andre’s and his family’s sake.
Third, I have not served in the military, but have heard first hand accounts of bias toward our troops being here from some Korean. To say all Koreans hate the US is not true. As for Anti-American sentiment that seems to fluctuate depending upon circumstances (Reference: Jung, H. J. (2010). The rise and fall of anti-American sentiment in South Korea: Deconstructing hegemonic ideas and threat perception. Asian Survey, 50(5), pp. 946-964.doi:10.1525/as.2010.50.5.946)
I made a comment over at 3 WM about a similarity to the Amanda Knox trial in Italy. One thing I’d caution the family about is slander and defamation of Koreans (as other’s have stated). Not only does that have a negative effect on the outcome on his case, there’s always an outside chance a family member who comes here to Korea could be arrested for making such a comment. Knox’s parents are on trial for slander in Italy. If there is one true thing I’ve learned about Koreans is that they don’t take aggressive criticism well.
Give his reaction after being arrested, an apology and offer for restitution. He may or may not be guilty of the initial robbery, however his actions after require some semblance of remorse.
10:36 pm on July 30th, 2011 46
After listening to the interview if I understand the situation correctly, even if Fisher took a deal, he’d still get prosecuted by the military. A deal wouldn’t help him much given the high chance of a court martial. I think it’s a shame he’s going to be prosecuted twice for the same crime.
12:16 am on July 31st, 2011 47
#21
“I have watched a Korean SWEAR that he witnessed an innocent GI do something that I clearly saw another long-gone GI do.”
Seems no one pointed this out but seriously most Koreans in Korea cannot tell apart 1 black from another black, and 1 white from another white. I’m sure you heard fellow Americans (be it white or black) joke about Asians look all the same? Same thing with Koreans. I believe many Koreans in Korea pick out wrong person when told to ID a foreign suspect in a crime because of this. No doubt there are Koreans who lie about it but I lean on the theory that many Koreans generally have difficulty telling apart 1 black/white from another black/white. Mix in the chaos of a crime taking place and no wonder some Korean witness fingers a wrong suspect. A witness picking wrong suspect happens a lot in US as we all know.
So maybe Andre is not guilty, but and was just a victim of misidentification. BUT he’s made it difficult by scuffling with the cops and damaging the cop car. Perhaps he reacted that way due to the alcohol? Not saying that’s wrong, but it is what is.
One more thing, some may be wondering what this ‘blood money’ is in S Korea legal system. Here’s best desc you can find about it. It’s a well know blog by a practicing lawyer in NYC, who immigrated from S Korea to US when he was in late teen. Long but very detailed and worth reading for someone who has to deal with legal system of S Korea.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-is-all-this-about-blood-money.html
About the activists trying to ‘help’ Andre, I’d be wary of them. They have their own agendas.
12:19 am on July 31st, 2011 48
What is the Korean spelling of the blood money term?
2:20 am on July 31st, 2011 49
da boo-rawd moe-knee ta-eum
Anyway, the story seems to be that there is not enough evidence for a criminal convition under an American legal system.
If he is fearing a court martial, there may be more to this story… such as his “friends” having a slightly different story when testifying in a military court under oath…
…or a guy on video that doesn’t look like him only if one wants to believe it isn’t him.
Everyone here has been very generous and understanding of the events after his arrest… considering it an unrelated event.
But if he is innocent of the robbery and any evidence, including statements from him and his friends, indicate he is innocent, the family will be quick to post it all here and other places…
…otherwise, just as we have seen in the past, when people aren’t willing to discuss their unjust situation in detail, there is an ugly side to the story.
2:37 am on July 31st, 2011 50
USinKorea asked:
I already posted this earlier in this thread: 합의금 (合意金) and the written agreement is 합의서 (合意書).
2:43 am on July 31st, 2011 51
David English wrote:
That interview is loaded with all kinds of bad information. I suspect this is mostly because Fisher’s parents know very little about the US military and even less about Korean culture. And I don’t mean this as a slight – neither has served in the military or traveled to Korea before.
Paying 합의금 is NOT an admission of guilt.
3:29 am on July 31st, 2011 52
I have never paid attention to this part in GI-related cases, but out of curiosity, what usually happens to soldiers after one of these Korean cases involving minor crimes? Are they usually discharged?
What about similar crimes invoving only USFK members which are handled by MPs and the military court system? If found guilty of simple assault or petty larceny, are discharges also standardly given?
I’m curious especially about the crimes involving the Korean system:
USFK authorities have to be as aware as long term expats that a GI taken into custody by Korena police are going to be found guilty in a Korean court. Pretty much 100% of the time…
3:37 pm on July 31st, 2011 53
and there’s this:
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/vigil-gathers-to-free-andre-1.1182362#axzz1Tj1TeSwB
4:50 pm on July 31st, 2011 54
Prediction: He’ll be released soon after Aug. 9th and none of the family’s effort, except for paying the blood money, will have had any influence on that outcome whatsoever.
It will work out just like the case noted in #43.
1:13 am on August 4th, 2011 55
Hi, I’m one of the supporters of Andre Fisher in this case. Disclaimer: The organization that I learned of his case through, nor I, have made the issue out to be racist, yet discriminatory, based on the details of the case that were made available to us.
With that being said upfront, I’d like to know how you were able to get all of these details, when apparently, even his own family could not get details concerning his case from USFK? I personally have tried to dig for more info (from blogs, national news websites, etc) but have only come up with the reports/articles that you refer to, that include only half of the details, according to your sources.
I am leery, not necessarily of you, but of the above details you provide. Why are you the only source that claims more than the previously published information?
I’m currently living in South Korea, and have been on the underhanded side of the justice system, personally. Luckily, I had a Korean support system to help me.
It’s not just that you’re a foreigner here in South Korea, but more so that you are usually assumed guilty until proven innocent here; no matter what the case (in my limited experience, and from the vast experiences of many expats/soldiers). Furthermore, there is no way to “really” know what is going on in a court of law, since it is held in a foreign language. That alone, leaves a foreigner at a disadvantage.
This is a very homogeneous country in thought and deed. In my experience, you can only rely on a Korean friend to stand up for your best interest or have your back in a bad situation, and that is asking a lot; definitely not an attorney who will make his money regardless of the outcome of your case, is Korean, and is probably in bed with the Korean prosecutor to maintain the high conviction rates (yes, I’m making un-based judgments).
In addition, being drunk and angry (even hitting police officers) is the norm in Korea…for Koreans. Being drunk has actually been used as a viable excuse for domestic violence, rape, and just blatant disturbing the peace…for Koreans. Why is it all of a sudden so bad because a foreigner has done it!?? When in Rome, do as the Romans do right?
At any rate, I appreciate you providing a broader prospective on the details of case…they’re interesting, to say the very least.
1:21 am on August 4th, 2011 56
DSW in Korea wrote:
To whom (specifically) is your question directed – and to which details are you referring when you ask, “I’d like to know how you were able to get all of these details…?”
1:27 am on August 4th, 2011 57
Anyone who is interested in this case, and from outside Korea, ought to read this complete article and the comments.
http://rokdrop.com/2011/08/03/why-do-koreans-lie-so-much/
10:26 am on August 4th, 2011 58
Guitard wrote:
“To whom (specifically) is your question directed – and to which details are you referring when you ask, “I’d like to know how you were able to get all of these details…?”
I was asking the author of this article…Sorry I wasn’t clear. :-/
10:47 am on August 4th, 2011 59
Everybody who read the first sentence of the second paragraph of the “author of this article”‘s article step up and claim your prize.
Not so fast there, DSW in Korea…
“Here is some further information provided by the 2ID PAO that provides further context of what Fisher was convicted of.”
6:41 pm on August 4th, 2011 60
Chickenhead, I really don’t see your point in restating the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph, or being sarcastic. My question was not “what source” did the author get the information from, rather how did he get these details; meaning, I’m surprised these details are finally being disclosed to the public. Yes, I see now that the details were known by the family, and they failed to include that info when gaining support. However, I can understand why…Being as you’re not the author, whom my question is posed to, I really see no progress being made by your response to me,
Alas, it is a free country, in the States at least.
The experience of this site is lessened by people who want to appear smart, but have no clue. Following Jill’s lead…thanks for all the great insight and info.
1:12 am on August 5th, 2011 61
DSW in Korea,
This entire situation is moving from one which seemed, at first, to require attention, publicity, and compassionate support… to one which invites sarcasm and ridicule… and humorously insulting jokes about all involved.
Allow me to explain.
Experience shows that completely innocent people want to tell their story… and are quick to correct misinformation with detailed explanations… over-detailed explanations.
Supporters of completely innocent people miss no opportunity to get the true story out. Even if the audience asks difficult or rude questions, they continue to counter accusations and speculations with the facts of the case… and can show how those facts work together to exclude other interpretations of events.
They look for ways to get more information from the situation… videos, witnesses, cellphone logs, etc. They ask for help and grasp at every straw of possible advice from those who might know something. And they ask lots of follow-up questions when people offer advice.
Andre Fisher’s family and supporters have done the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.
They have relied on exaggeration, misinformation, and emotion. They have been more interested finding out what people know… and in managing information and sources rather than gathering and releasing every possible fact that might even give a hint of innocence.
And when advice was given on possible ways to prove Andre’s innocence, such as collecting videos of the area, there was not a single follow-up question indicating the least bit of interest in collecting facts that might show someone else at the scene of the crime… making one wonder if such evidence is best avoided as it might actually PUT him at the scene of the crime.
They did not post a single bit of information or answer a single direct question… such as if his clothing when arrested matched the clothing in the video… or what statements his friends made… or even a claim that they did not know this information followed by a plea for help in finding out.
On top of this, indignant attention was intentionally refocused on the attitude of speculations and questions rather than on actually countering or answering them… and the audience has been VERY generous… such as considering the damage to the police car a completely unrelated issue… and even being understanding in why the family concealed this information.
These are all indicators, from Korean detectives to USFK legal workers to the judge who will hear his appeal, that Andre is completely guilty.
And these are all indicators to many smart people who have been watching all sorts of USFK-related misdeeds right here for years and years that yet another scumbag criminal is hoping to sling some BS as their side of the story… and then sulking away when nobody buys it.
Based on the available facts, I have no idea if Andre is guilty or not of robbing a taxi driver.
Based on the actions of his family and supporters, there is no question that he did it and that they know/suspect he did it.
This is quickly going from a case of a wronged GI to a case of a criminal GI that thought he got away clean and is angry that he got busted on such flimsy evidence.
This perception can be countered… but not by evoking an emotional plea to bruised sensitivities and slinking away in a huff.
3:33 am on August 5th, 2011 62
“This is quickly going from a case of a wronged GI to a case of a criminal GI that thought he got away clean and is angry that he got busted on such flimsy evidence.”
I agree with Chickenhead’s conclusion. There is one theme that has been a constant through this entire drama, and that is that Fisher’s supporters make a lot of claims, but they can’t back up any of them.
They say that Fisher was out with friends the night of the robbery, but these “friends,” who could speak to Fisher’s innocence, are nowhere to be found. Their claims are getting more absurd as the days go by – now they are saying that Fisher didn’t have a translator at the trial. http://www.rollingangels.org/AndreFisher.html
DSW in Korea – my theory as to why there is not much information about this case is because members of the media don’t want to end up like Dan Rather. In the beginning, there were numerous stories about Fisher’s case on the internet, on TV, and on the radio, about a good and innocent Soldier who was railroaded by the Korean justice system and abandoned by the Army.
The story seemed sensational. But then these stories stopped, and as you can see from a Google search, there’s no new stuff about this case. That is because these media outlets – Stars and Stripes, military.com, msnbc, whatever – WENT OUT TO CONFIRM the veracity of Fisher’s supporters’ claims. They did not just take the family’s word for it and then print some bs story – if they did that they would lose their credibility.
The media conducted their due diligence, contacted the military, looked into the case, and discovered that Fisher’s claims were bogus; and that he had simply lied to or mislead his parents, who then took up his crusade, and are now too naive or blind to realize the truth. At which point the news networks simply dropped the story.
I feel bad for Fisher, not because he’s incarcerated, but because I think that the shame and embarrassment that he will endure when he goes home and has to face all the people that are currently supporting him – after they discover that he lied to them – will be worse than any prison time he may have to serve.
But hey that’s just my take; I could be wrong. We’ll all just have to wait for the results of the appeal on August 9th. Fisher might get completely vindicated.
4:15 am on August 5th, 2011 63
This isn’t a sensational murder. It’s not a big case. And it will end with even less reason to write about it.
He’s going to be release on appeal with a suspended sentence.
5:19 am on August 5th, 2011 64
DSW, as I mentioned in the article the 2ID PAO provided the information. I don’t know if the family tried to contact the PAO or not, but the PAO was very helpful and informative about this case. No one has been able to dispute what he has said.
The bottom line on this case is that even if Fisher didn’t do it he looks guilty. He was wearing a hoodie, which is one strike on him, I don’t know what the rest of his appearance was like, but if he was dressed like a thug, that is two strikes, and then his actions with the police especially tearing up the police car is three strikes.
With that said USinKorea is correct since this hasn’t made waves in the Korean media, which is actually a bit surprising considering the amount of media attention it has received state side, he will likely walk out of the court room a free man after his appeal if he dresses nice, acts repented, apologizes for his actions, and pays compensation money.
If his sentence isn’t reduced that leads me to believe there is even more to the story that we don’t know about.
5:38 pm on August 5th, 2011 65
I wonder if the Fisher’s would care to respond to the fact that Andre was found to have in his possession the personal belongings of the cab driver at the time of his arrest. I know for a fact that when he was searched, the cab driver’s belongings were on his person.
6:10 pm on August 5th, 2011 66
This has went from people, here on the ground with various levels of knowledge of Korea and the military, ready to to possibly defend the lad to people who are becoming more and more convinced of his guilt.
65. If this is true it will probably seal it for most of us. Any chance of sharing or hinting where this info comes from?
Just because he was raised by white parents doesn’t mean he wasn’t going thug life especially away from them over here. It’s not the race, whites do it too, it’s the culture.
6:14 pm on August 5th, 2011 67
Attention future readers and whom it may concern. This is a lesson in how not to conduct a PR campaign for your “falsely accused” loved ones in a foreign country. Abject failure.
7:07 pm on August 5th, 2011 68
For some reason, this has not made the Korean media.
If his thug clothing at the time of arrest matched the thug clothing in the video and he had any of the taxi driver’s personal belongings on his person, that is pretty convincing of his guilt.
If his sentence is reduced on appeal, it SHOULD make the Korean media to insure it doesn’t happen again… as it will clearly be an example of a guilty GI getting off lightly… which, in the future, will be used by agenda-driven groups to hassle USFK… and make it more difficult for a truly innocent GI to find justice the next time there is a media-fuel feeding frenzy.
9:38 pm on August 5th, 2011 69
What’s wrong with hoodies? The repository of all knowledge says they’re “mainstream fashion” in North America, with “very little negative perception.”
10:44 pm on August 5th, 2011 70
#69
Hoodies in HOT/HUMID summer in S Korea? You’d look less conspicuous in Korea if you wore one of those masks and put on a baseball cap.
I know that alone doesn’t prove anyone guilty but still weird no?
10:49 pm on August 5th, 2011 71
68 I don’t think the penalty will be too light if moved to time served. It would fit within the Korean justice system and I think we’d see the same thing in the US.
He was convicted of reaching into a taxi and grabbing stuff and then going wild once put into custody. Rather routine crimes in the US. Definately worth an arrest, time in prison waiting trial or bail, conviction, and then probation if there are no serious prior convictions…
11:23 pm on August 5th, 2011 72
Changing my name from John to John in NY since there’s a John in CA. I should’ve picked a more unique name. Sorry. Anyway:
#70. This happened in December so it’s not unusual to be wearing one.
#65 I would like to know how you know he had the cabbie’s possessions on his person. In all media reports and from his family (although I believe all the news stories only repeated what the family told them), he had only $14 of the reported $88 missing. Where are you getting this information b/c if it’s true, it would probably end all argument?
I think despite what the family says, they simply couldn’t care one iota about fairness in criminal proceedings. They simply want to get Andre out, which is what any family would want. They have pushed their publicity campaign in such a way as to gather the most sympathy without giving all the facts. As more facts have come out, support for their campaign has slowed. The petition page is just barely over 1,000 still and the facebook page is nothing more than family and friends. I would guess the congressmen that they have contacted are also not making themselves available to the family.
Like several have said here, I believe he will get off with time served. But then he’ll have to face the US military and plead his case all over again. I wonder if the family will say he’s wrongfully charged again.
11:16 pm on August 6th, 2011 73
I know a person who may have been at the trial acting in an official capacity. That’s all I’d liked to admit at this point.
I really wish I could say more on the matter since I despise people without integrity but I don’t want problems for my friend. All I will say is, he deserves the 2 years.
12:56 am on August 8th, 2011 74
Green,
When somebody is wronged, we voice our support…
…but it’s a LOT more fun to pick on people who have done wrong… especially when they claim to be the victim.
There is not enough information to make a reasonable guess about Andre’s guilt or innocence… although circumstantial evidence points to his guilt… and the actions of his supporters are not what would be expected if they truly believed he was innocent.
If you can, in some way that protects sources, release satifactory evidence that shows he deserves the guilty verdict, it would be great… not just due to knowing the legal system is functioning and USFK is doing the right thing… but because we could, in clear conscious, start making fun of everyone who has it coming.
12:58 am on August 8th, 2011 75
My girlfriends and I starting taking a photo with our phones, of the taxi drivers license before we get in so they know if they do something to us we could report them, thats how bad taxi drivers are too foreigners here. I’ve been in Korea for 3 years and if I was a hot tempered young man I would be in jail too. Korean cab drivers take advantage of foreigners on a regular bases, over charging, adding fees, taking out of the way routes and just having a nasty attitude towards their own customers. Then on top of that, you need a taxi the most when you have been drinking and when you know someone is trying to rip you off its hard to keep your composure even when sober, let alone drunk and exhausted. Then there’s the language barrier. I feel for the guy, just looking back at all the yelling matches I’ve had with taxi drivers, I’m getting mad just thinking about it.
3:53 am on August 8th, 2011 76
>when you know someone is trying to rip you off its hard to keep your composure even when sober<
It is? Why? If you let others control your temper, you are going to have a lot of problems, not just in Korea, but anywhere you go.
I have never had a problem with cab drivers or any other public transportation people. Not to say there aren't bad ones- but being aware of ones' surroundings and being of a clear enough mind to see a bad situation developing and get out of it before you're up to your neck is a sign of mature adulthood- just sayin'…
6:40 am on August 8th, 2011 77
I’ve been in Korea about 7 years, and I’ve travelled a good bit in public transportation, usually alone, and I can’t think of one negative incident that stands out in my mind.
I did not live or work around military bases or hang out in the villes. I can imagine sharks might tend to congrigate there looking for fresh fish, but I’m just saying I never had an issue with taxi drivers (so far).
I have had trouble using public transportation – usually involving the mentally ill or drunks – particulary in bus or train stations or on the subway…but never with taxis.
7:17 am on August 8th, 2011 78
We should all just go home and let North Korea slaughter South Korea. They don’t appreciate our help and taking advantage of our people anyway they can. I have seen this involving car accidents, incidents involving a Korean provoking an American by spitting on them telling them to “leave Korea and go home” and various other get rich quick schemes that will never work in the states. We support the “local nationals” more than our own people. Spouses here can’t even get jobs in hair salons (for example) because you have to speak Hangul even though all of the patrons should be ID Card holders! If you spit on someone, you deserve to swallow all 32 of your teeth. Some of us are here away from our family protecting these ungrateful moochers and this is the thanks we get. The younger generation does not know how much we are doing for their country and personally I’m getting sick of pacifying them. If they want us gone…let’s bounce! But when they get their asses handed to them by the North with their million man army, I don’t wanna here crap about how we now NEED the Americans. I’m personally offended by this trial because they (South Koreans) rape up in every way possible and USFK act like they don’t see the crap. Really, why are we playing $3,000 in rent a month here, why are we at fault for every car accident and our system tells to just “settle” outside of court, where’s our protection when someone spits on us or pushes us or robs us by overcharging us….we don’t provide the same fight for our own people like we do for this blasted country. These are not our allies, the 2% that respect us and %98 that is taking advantage of us. Our country is in debt, not because of our President…how much money are we shelling out to Korea and how much are they giving us for our support. I know we are paying more. Let’s take our butts home and let them deal with their own problems. Hell if after 60 years, you can’t come to a resolution…our presence doesn’t mean anything. We don’t need anything from Korea. We get our rice from other countries…LET’S GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE NOW! DEROS effective 9 AUG 2011
7:25 am on August 8th, 2011 79
USinKOrea…I don’t understand the point of your comment. This guy is in the military and you have no experience there, so again what’s your point? Shopping, taking taxis, eating in restaurants in those areas…its daunting. It’s tolerable when you’re on a 7 day vacation, but when it’s your home, it can really get to you. I was just I understand how it feels to pull up to your home at 4am and have the taxi tell you to give him $5 to $10 more than it says on the meteor or you pay and they keep the change with out your permission. We are only human, and I was saying I understand a young guy in that situation because I’m very mature but been an inch from really hurting one of those taxi drivers. You don’t understand what they saying and it’s frustrating, you just see what you owe on the machine and they start yelling that you need to give them more.
8:18 am on August 8th, 2011 80
Guys, guys, guys…
Please understand that villes and taxi drivers around military bases DO NOT REPRESENT KOREA any more than the shytholes outside stateside bases represent the United States.
Much blame lies with shytbag taxi drivers that look for easy money with GIs… but just as much blame lies with USFK “leadership” who is busy playing golf with Good Neighbors but not busy educating servicemembers and putting pressure on local government to crack down on dishonest businesses.
USFK will use “readiness” as an excuse to push any craptastic agenda-of-the-week they dream up… but they don’t care that the biggest threat to true readiness is the hatred for Korea brought about by their tolerance/encouragement of the constant scams and rip-offs that go on around GI communities.
Popping a rip-off taxi driver in the chops is understandable but foolish. Robbing him afterwards is certainly a diick move. Either way, getting caught is… nonproductive.
A better plan might be to get out the cellphone camera and take a picture of the meter before he clears it followed by a picture of his ID. This might get the charge reduced to the meter price. This may or may not result in a refund for you and trouble for him if you report it… but word is taxi driver get very nervous when their ID gets recorded… so there must be consequences if they get complaints.
Also, a good travel tip is to ALWAYS have small bills when dealing with shytbags… so the most they can rip you off for is pocket change.
One more thing… a small, but vocal, percentage of Koreans hate the USA being in Korea. A much larger percentage are very happy the USA is there for them. The vast majority don’t really know or really care as long as it doesn’t come to their immediate attention…
…such as with GIs beating and robbing taxi drivers.
9:28 am on August 8th, 2011 81
Jlove wrote:
You are aware that fares increase 20% between midnight and 4:00am — right? And this isn’t just taxi ajushi trying to rip off unwitting foreigners – it’s a publicized fact.
http://www.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/TR/TR_EN_5_2.jsp
10:11 am on August 8th, 2011 82
That is a legal and legitimate fact of taxi service in South Korea.
Additionally, there are at play several other routine practices designed to offset the abysmally low salaries that are a function of the super cheap taxi fares. Among these are hapsŭng, the Korean word for taxi sharing, which allows the drivers to double up or even triple up on the fare (the riders do NOT get a discount for sharing).
Also, for out-of-the-way destinations or destinations where they cannot expect to pick up another fare, a lot of taxi drivers routinely charge up to double (for up and back). I ran into this routinely when I worked at a facility that was on the edge of Seoul (my 2000 won ride from the nearest subway station was 4000 won). This is consistently applied to Korean nationals as well.
Unfortunately, when told of these things (if they even apply to cases in the TDC area), they seem to a Korean taxi neophyte as if they are a scam or a rip-off.
Again, I don’t know if any of this is applicable in the TDC area, but there are add-ons, particularly late at night, that are NOT foreigner rip-offs. They are certainly not a reason to stomp a taxi, rob a taxi driver, or “let North Korea slaughter South Korea.”
12:22 pm on August 8th, 2011 83
Chickenhead is right. There is a land in Korea outside the ville. That was my point since the commenter made a comment likely associated with the ville but not representative of what I’ve seen outside of it during more years than the GI typically experiences here.
I made a name for myself in the K-blogs extensively covering the anti-US/USFK culture in South Korea. I’m certainly not an apologist. But, I wouldn’t have spent so many years in Korea if it made me feel like #78.
An Army major I got to know when doing East Asian Studies in graduate school said while he was in Korea, he went around in the local area, both in the ville and beyond, to contact local businesses and other attractions known for not ripping GIs off and some that would give some positive flavor about Korea. He put it together in a short guide for the soldiers in his unit – especially new guys.
He said it had a positive impact, but the effort to keep it going died when he was rotated out.
I don’t know what units and bases do along this line, but it is a good idea. There is more to Korea than the military scene. Something for most people.
GIs will usually stick out in the crowd, and there is a percentage of Koreans for whom the anti-US attitude is much more than a fun nationalistic pasttime, and a certain percentage of them will try to cause trouble.
But, if you get out and around in Korea, you might find things that enhance the tour in country.
I mean, there have been a fair number of military contractors who commenting here over the years, pretty much all former military, and they CHOSE to live in Korea for years, and they have shared both the good and bad from their experience.
12:35 pm on August 8th, 2011 84
usinkorea wrote:
Living near Seoul Station and occasionally working on Yongsan Garrison, I ran into a lot of people whose entire Korea experience was almost exclusively Yongsan, while I would occasionally meet people who were on their way back up to Tongduchon or back down to wherever (unless I’m in a big hurry, I try to help people who look like they’re trying to figure out how to buy tickets or where they are on a map). Those two different bookends make for an entirely different Korea experience.
That’s too bad. It would be nice if someone could pick up the slack on that. Any chance of getting an old copy so someone can work on updating it?
12:38 pm on August 8th, 2011 85
I wrote:
I don’t think that was clear. These were people I’d meet in/near Seoul Station, Yongsan Station, downtown, etc., who were out exploring the country on their own, usually with little or no Korean skills (sometimes including the basic skill of reading). Somehow they managed, and their tour was better for it.
(All military personnel in Korea for more than a month should learn the alphabet.)
9:37 pm on August 8th, 2011 86
Q: Why did Fisher unquestionably deserve years and years in prison.
A: Because she shot Mary Jo Buttafuoco.
10:08 pm on August 8th, 2011 87
everything in korea is settled with money
12:33 am on August 9th, 2011 88
87. The culture is based on graft and corruption. Blood money is just legally sanctioned blackmail.
3:08 am on August 9th, 2011 89
The 3WM Press Release from today’s Andre Fisher Appeal.
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/08/09/andre-fisher-shines-at-appeals-hearing-final-verdict-to-be-issued-on-august-25/
Thee full reportage on the Case of Andre Fisher will be published after the August 25 announcement on the appeal of his case.
Anyone who has seminal information on this case is encouraged to contact us directly.
3WM
6:27 am on August 9th, 2011 90
Hmmm…
Over at 3WM, a commenter claimed that Andre Fisher’s appearance on the USFK court martial results was due to him being caught keying cars AFTER the robbery incident.
Now… let me tell you about car-keyers.
They are the lowest common denominator of humanity. They are the equalizers. They are the people who make sure those of us who work hard and play by the rules can’t have anything nice… just like them.
So, if somebody can show me any kind of beyond-a-reasonable-doubt proof that:
1. This is the same Andre Fisher.
2. His crime in Uijeongbu was keying cars.
Tomorrow morning, I will call a high-level Korean judge (that I drank with every week for over a year until he was rotated to a new court) and I will explain what this Andre Fisher guy is all about…
…and mention his sworn testimony in court that he has a “spotless criminal record both in Seoul and the U.S.”… which might be technically true… but is thin cover for a serial shytbag.
I don’t know if anything will come of this… but he was the head of a judge association and knows a lot of other judges… so maybe he will give a call and have them take a second look.
I want to be very sure I am not causing trouble for someone undeserving… so I want proof.
But, if he did key cars after the taxi incident, it says all I need to know… and confirms a number of things I was starting to suspect.
Anybody have a good reason I shouldn’t do this?
6:47 am on August 9th, 2011 91
CH, just let it go. At this point, let the case for this specific trial go through. The family wanted the Korean courts to handle the case according to law and they should be satisfied that this was the case. This case with the robbery as it stands alone will likely see him sent home with time off. At that point, let the Army handle him. He has to face them next. For the record though, I don’t think the family’s campaign will have any effect on the proceedings but 3WM and other sites will use it as an example of how people stood up to the system and got the fair trial and release of the accused as a result. I think even without your example in the other case, the evidence is incriminating already (based on accounts of parties closer to the investigation than any of us) and reported here.
6:48 am on August 9th, 2011 92
That should say time already spent, not time off.
6:48 am on August 9th, 2011 93
Because he’s getting about what you’d expect he’d get if the crimes had been committed by another GI or Korean?
Like him or not, from the beginning I’ve been saying, he’s getting what amounts to justice here. Nothing except the amount of attention it has generated in the K-blogs falls outside the norm of similar cases reported over the years. Why should he deserve special attention either way? It isn’t that big a case…
5:48 pm on August 9th, 2011 94
Andre Fisher seems to be junk.
And his story is a pile of bunk.
So I hope that in jail
his cellmates don’t fail
to scratch their keys key ’round the hole in his trunk.
John in NY,
There are some people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time and do the wrong thing due to immediate peer pressure or lack of thinking things through… etc.
But their basic character is good and they strive to do better… and certainly go to great lengths to stay far from trouble until the other trouble passes.
Others are fundamental shytbags concerned only about themselves and their immediate desires with no thought of their place in society.
These people need to be removed from society as much as possible… as every interaction they have brings irritation or misery to society’s productive members just trying to take care of themselves.
There has been quite a bit of information trickling out that indicated Andre is one of the shytbags. While it is not proof, it rings of truth… as long-time readers here have seen similar situations in the past and recognize a number of patterns and factors that differentiate what is true and what is not.
Andre’s family made a lot of emotional pleas but became very quiet in the face of these accusations and avoided fair questions that could show his innocence… so, even his “supporters” are not really supporters.
Based on what I have seen so far, I feel society would be better off to keep him in jail for as long as possible… followed by the Army keeping him in jail for as long as possible… to delay the inevitable… as, when he gets out, crime will be one of his very few options.
Repeated crime was the option he took even when it didn’t have to be an option.
Out of curiosity, what will the Army do with him?
USinKorea,
I’m not sure it is usual for a GI facing legal problems in Korea to do something to face more legal problems in Korea.
The reason this became a big deal is his “supporters” made a big stink.
But when you indignantly claim to be right when you are very, very wrong, it generates a backlash from those who have no tolerance for bullshyt.
The special attention was generated by the Andre Fisher camp… and now they have it.
8:08 pm on August 9th, 2011 95
Chicken Head
Your words are so eloquent when you are blogging, but they a complete fallacy and a yellow journalist tactic.
You talk about Andre Fisher as if you know him personally, but you know anything about his character and the character of a man.
As for the Fisher family, they have complete faith in the South Korean judicial system and that justice will be served.
As for your information, the USFK website does not mention that he was charged with keying cars. It states that he was charged and fined for Destruction of Property and Damage of Public Property. If you are familiar with the case you know that he was arrested for kicking and smashing the window of a patrol car. This is waht he was fined for not keying cars.
When reporting please make sure your information is accurate because yellow journalists are the lowest common denominators of society. I understand that you want to cause a controversy and attract readers, but please do not report inaccurate information.
Andre and his family want to see justice served.
8:46 pm on August 9th, 2011 96
@95 You’re messing with CH – well, good luck with that. While you’re busy throwing out things that you think you know about, you should re-read ALL of the posts about this case. If you did that, then you would know that the charges from the latest USFK criminal proceedings results had Fisher being convicted in the Uijeongbu court for the destruction charges. If this had been the trashing the police car incident, then it would have been in Seoul, as pointed out by several posters here. Also, another poster was the one who threw out the ‘keying cars’ accusation so perhaps you should direct your question there.
Its obvious that there is much more to this story then we all know, but calling from my own military experience for the better part of 25 years, I tend to agree with CH’s assessment. It’s pretty easy to spot the inconsistencies in stories like that and having to deal with some of my own Soldiers getting mixed-up in various ‘activities’ down in the ‘ville I can say that the analysis here is pretty-much spot-on.
Oh – and one last thing – the whole line about “complete faith in the South Korean justice system”…ummm….better re-read this one also, if you haven’t before: http://rokdrop.com/2007/04/15/you-can-expect-a-fair-trail-in-korea-sort-of/
11:26 pm on August 9th, 2011 97
Jinro Dukkhobi wrote:
Ha ha… When you wrote “@95,” I thought you were directing that at me.
I’m a bit confused about this. So there’s no way that the June 2011 “destruction of public property in Uijongbu” could be the trashing of the police car?
Going by my own experience with the legal system, that timing (about six months after the fact) would be a reasonable expectation.
ChickenHead wrote:
CH, just let it go. Why go out of your way to mess up this guy’s life any more than it already is, just because of who has taken up his cause?
As I wrote at the latest Three Wizened Monkeys site, it’s unfortunate that Andre Fisher’s defenders/avengers are those using Andre Fisher’s case to vicariously take their own swings at their own Korean demons. It’s equally unfortunate that from the other end there are people using Andre Fisher as a proxy to take swings at Three Wise Monkeys and/or those who are Korea-Demonized.
Perhaps it would have been best for Andre Fisher to just have his case kept quiet instead of having his reputation and his person receiving “help” from defenders and pot shots from their foes.
Just let it go, man.
11:29 pm on August 9th, 2011 98
Kushibo,
From what I understand (and read), the whole ‘incident’ took place in Itaewon, therefore under the jurisdiction of the Seoul municipal court system, so that’s where (I believe) all of this stuff about the Uijeongbu case is coming around as being ‘something else’ – i.e. keying cars…
11:37 pm on August 9th, 2011 99
Dan,
I understand your concern.
First, let me correct a few misconceptions you might have.
While I regularly comment here, I am in no way associated with ROKDrop. This blog is an excellent venue for releasing any information you want known about Andre… but don’t confuse it with the opinions of its commenters.
Also, I am not a journalist. As is the trend today, even in institutions that are (or were) populated by “journalists”, I promote inflammatory personal opinion and speculative innuendo through leading questions and the repeating of rumors.
All this huffing and puffing is easily countered with facts… but, much (much, much, much) more often than not, there are no facts to counter it… as, despite its fiery presentation, it makes correct speculations based on properly selected information.
In the absence of facts, well-reasoned chains of thinking always beat out emotional denials which lack any alternate analysis.
I do not know Andre. I only know the facts, rumors, and accusations, which are in the public domain… as well as the public behavior of all involved… most of which, circumstantially, indicate Andre is guilty of robbing a taxi driver and everyone knows or suspects it.
This blog has two postings concerning Andre and I have written several times on both of them. If you look back, my early writing was very supportive and I went out of my way to consider ways to prove Andre’s innocence.
You have to understand that Andre’ supporters have been quick to jump on any criticism of Andre… but have made NO effort to follow up on sincere suggestions on how to prove his innocence or better maneuver through the Korean or USFK legal systems.
These actions speak louder than any amount of defensive-yet-informationless writing.
In a perfect world, Stars and Stripes would report on this story. Their journalists… er… reporters… er… press-release-paraphrasers read Korea blogs and they know it is currently an issue of interest.
But since they don’t really do reporting that requires work, rumor and speculation rule the day. If Andre is innocent of wrongdoing, it is in the best interest of his supporters to pursue and release all evidence. I’m certain that GI Korea will happily post any relevant documents hinting at Andre’s innocence or mistreatment.
If such things are not available, the least Andre’s supporters can do is write up the entire situation from start to finish to put rumors to rest. While people may pick at it or ask for further proof, if it is filled with truthful details, its consistency and sincerity will tilt the balance of opinion toward its version of events and away from hasty or groundless speculation.
If Andre’s conviction in a Uijeongbu court was for damaging a police car in Seoul, that should be part of the explanation.
As it sits now, that sounds unusual… but not impossible. So the keying accusations, which careful reading will show I treated only as accusations, sound just as reasonable as your strangely fact-lacking denial.
In the end, Andre’s family and supporters should have detailed information and insider knowledge about the situation. If they choose not to post that information, it means he is guilty or they don’t care about public opinion…
…and since there have been a number of emotional complaints from the Andre camp over his treatment on the blogs but absolutely no information has been released, I have pretty much made up my mind what is going on.
The Uijeongbu conviction should be a pretty easy thing to verify.
Anybody out there know why he was convicted?
12:03 am on August 10th, 2011 100
Kushibo,
“Why go out of your way to mess up this guy’s life any more than it already is, just because of who has taken up his cause?”
Hmmm… I didn’t know 3WM was something to watch out for. I only know of them because of the ATEK articles… which I thought were pretty spot-on… and this issue… which, when only one side of the story was out, seemed like a worthy cause. I will take a closer look at 3WM if you think its agenda is not correct.
As for further messing up a guy’s life, let me ask you this…
Have you ever owned a really, really nice car? Have you had one that really was on the upper end of your ability to afford… but you found it necessary to accomplish the youthful goals of impressing your friends and attracting pretty girls?
Did you watch weeks of your hard work vanish with stolen rims or ripped out Alpine stereo? Did you see a guy walking down the street with a hood ornament around a gold chain on his neck just like the one that was carelessly torn from your car… that you will have to work a whole day or more just to replace? Did you come to a parking lot and find somebody who never had (and never will have) anything more than a fourth-hand beater had scratched a line down the side as they passed by simply because they were angry that you work hard or smart enough to have something they never will… so to equalize the situation, they needlessly spoil it for you?
Well, I can’t get back at those people… but I can get equal satisfaction by helping the next generation of hard workers avoid the pain caused by the worthless spoliers… just as I wish the generation before me had done at every chance… and, maybe the did… as, generally, anarchy does not rule the streets in a giant free-for-all.
“Just let it go” is a nice way to say “let other people take care of the problem”… which is why, from government to society, things are screwed up in the most bazaar ways while everybody sits around complaining and waiting for someone else to do something.
I can’t stop government spending… but I can help some nice young guy working 7 days a week to buy a great car not have to go through the heartbreak of buying new paint for it.
…assuming that Andre did, in fact, key cars… which is why I very clearly required evidence before I considered any action like I suggested.
1:18 am on August 10th, 2011 101
ChickenHead wrote:
Whatever. The fact is that if Three Wise Monkeys hadn’t taken up the cause of this “wrongful conviction,” then you wouldn’t know about this case and wouldn’t be seeking to make things stay bad for the guy.
Mizaru, did Three Wise Monkeys add a question mark to the original Andre Fisher post? I seem to remember their being less uncertainty in the title about him having been railroaded.
7:01 am on August 10th, 2011 102
Chicken Head, go for it. If you can influence this judge friend to get this punk spanked, do it. please. I have doubts that UCMJ will be adequate unless it’s a discharge. He should be part of the drawdown.
7:27 am on August 10th, 2011 103
Responding to everyone…yes the court martial results for June 2011 were the date he was convicted for damaging the police car. He was not ever accused of or convicted of keying cars. Please let us all stop accusing each other of racism, being against Korea etc…Andre is very happy in Korea and will if allowed remain staioned there until he is transfered to his next assignment. Yes, I did say Andre was guilty of destruction of property to the police car and he is very apologetic and remorseful for that, and has paid for the damages and then some…we do not condone this type of behavior; however, understandably he was extremly upset and scared.At times he does have difficulty with emotional stress/duress due to his traumatic childhood..please do not think I am making excuses or placing blame on anything…I am just trying to get others to understand as to where one might be able to rationalize and not internalize he is not always capable of this until he has time think clearly. Not that it is anyone’s business; however, he was adopted at six years of age..prior to that he was bounced around in the system, abused, neglected..and had a very horrific life as a young child, and this believe me is not an understatment!! However, we when provided his with a safe, loving, and stable home he flourished. He was an honor student, athlete, and all around great kid. He was not “perfect” however I don’t believe any of us are…This is not an excuse for his actions to police car but maybe just maybe it will help others understand Andre is far from a “career” criminal.However, this is your opinion and your are entitled to believe what you want. We never meant for anyone, culture, race…etc..to get offended by our actions, we just wanted Andre to receive a fair and just trial, regardless of guilt or innocence. He would call us after the previous trials and explain he did not even understand what was going on…Is this “fair” in Korea, America…or anywhere for that matter?? We just want/always wanted Andre to be treated fairly and not assumed guility until proven innoncent…normally it is innoncent until proven guility. I believe that anyone’s family would support them as we did Andre..even if Andre was found guilty, we will not condone his behaviors; however, we would love and support him regardless. The system failed him as a young child and we just do not want to see the same as young adult.
7:47 am on August 10th, 2011 104
ChickenHead wrote:
No, “just let it go” is a nice way of saying you have too little in the way of facts to be launching any effort to make things worse for Mr Fisher.
From one comment left by someone who asserted something he never backed up (Jack, at TWM, talking about the supposed keying), you go into some speech (#90) about avenging people who buy nice things against the lowest form of people, and assume, based on a single anonymous comment that was never backed up and which would likely to be something else already related to this case.
Jill in #103 affirms what I’d asked at TWM, whether the July 2011 adjudication (I had mistakenly written June) for damaging public property was actually part of this case. Yet based on that, you assumed there was veracity to it being a keying unrelated to this and you were poised to take down the guy by alerting a judge friend to what a scumbag Andre Fisher is.
Isn’t that going a bit too far with too little information? Frankly, Andre Fisher’s behavior fits too well with two scenarios, one where he was a drunken jackass who’d just gotten caught robbing a taxi, and the other where he was a wrongly accused person at the wrong place who went into panic mode when he was thrown in the police car. I don’t know which one it is, but my experiences with the police in both the US and South Korea lead me to believe that the latter is a very plausible scenario, as much or more than the former.
And with so much uncertainty, ChickenHead, I think there’s no reason for you to take your jurist drinking buddy aside and sicking him on Andre Fisher to avenge those who’ve had their hood ornaments stolen.
7:54 am on August 10th, 2011 105
In regards to Fisher’s convictions he was convicted in Uijongbu for Destruction of Property and Damage of Public Property in July 2011. In Seoul he was convicted in June 2011 of Robbery and Damage to Public Property. These are two different convictions in two different cities. So he was convicted in Uijongbu of another crime after he had already been convicted for a crime in Seoul.
We have speculation he was keying cars in Uijongbu which I don’t know is true or not. What I do know is that since he was convicted of yet another crime this could affect his appeal to have his sentenced reduced. I would still be surprised though if he isn’t released upon appeal for time served along with a compensation payment.
8:10 am on August 10th, 2011 106
I posted a long response on TWM about 3 hours ago. However, it says, “Your comment is awaiting moderation” and the post is not currently visible.
In the meantime, for those who doubt that there were two separate convictions – one in Seoul and then another in Uijeongbu, you can contact the 2ID Public Affairs Office to confirm.
http://www.2id.korea.army.mil/organization/staff/personal/.
To call on-post from a cell phone in Korea, you dial 0505 first. So, to call the main PAO line you would dial 0505-732-8899. It also shows how to call the PAO office from the US.
8:19 am on August 10th, 2011 107
GI Korea wrote:
Okay, now I’m confused by the dates again. Is it possible these are two things stemming from the same incident, but handled separately by the court?
In June:
In July:
In 2001, I was detained (not arrested, as Metropolitician describes the same thing) for something involving an accident (caused by someone else). Due large to a bit of police bungling with the evidence, a judgement of 1 million won came down against me, which I got knocked down to 100,000 won after two court appearances. There were two adjudications, and I imagine that if I were a member of USFK, I would have appeared on the pages of ROK Drop three times: once in the blotter, once for the first adjudication, and once for the third adjudication, when the final fine was reduced.
I ask that because it does seem to me that the June conviction is about criminal punishment and then the July conviction is a reduced or separate adjudication related to the part of the incident where he admitted guilt, caused clear damage, and was trying to make restitution.
Since Three Wise Monkeys claims to be trying to get to the bottom of this, it might be good if they provide clarification on this. If they seek to be an objective news source and not a subjective advocate for one side, then they should clarify it irrespective of whether it helps or hurts their case that Andre Fisher’s is a “wrongful conviction.”
8:23 am on August 10th, 2011 108
third adjudication –> second adjudication
8:27 am on August 10th, 2011 109
It seems they have a 315 area code, which is New York. Does that mean I can call the PAO and other USFK numbers without making an international call? Anyone got a decoder for the numbers then? There are a few places I wouldn’t mind calling from time to time if I could do so with my AT&T anytime minutes.
9:17 am on August 10th, 2011 110
Kushibo,
You are the king of complaining about the misrepresenting and misinterpreting of your clear writing… and right fully so… but now you do it to me.
Shame-ditty-shame-ditty shame, shame, shame…
I CLEARLY stated that I would need proof that:
“1. This is the same Andre Fisher.
2. His crime in Uijeongbu was keying cars.”
The rest was just a rant about people engaged in senseless vandalism. If it has no relation to Andre, the concept still stands but has no effect on him.
And, if no proof ever comes my way, I give the benefit of the doubt by default and take no action… just as I have so far.
If I get proof, which we will all see and be able to judge as a group, I will know what kind of guy Andre is… and I’ll be on the phone within minutes stating my case for this guy to be made an example of… though it may have absolutely no influence… or it might.
Now Jack says there were two incidents and Jill says there were not. I don’t have to go up a hill to see someone’s story doesn’t hold water.
(Get it? Jack and Jill. Up the Hill. Pail of water.)
So Jill says Andre was convicted for damaging the police car in June of 2011. That would be:
“In Seoul Central District Court on 10 June 2011, PVT Andre M. Fisher, 4th Chemical Company, USAG-Casey, was convicted of Robbery and Damage to Public Property. His adjudged sentence was imprisonment for 2 years, not suspended.”
Robbery AND Damage. This makes sense. The robbery of the taxi driver… and the damage to the police car which is public property. The robbery has no convincing proof. There are no questions with the damage part.
But the second incident is more troubling.
“In Uijeongbu District Court on 21 July 2011, PVT Andre M. Fisher, 4th Chemical Company, USAG-Casey, was convicted of Destruction of Property and Damage of Public Property. His adjudged sentence was a 1,000,000 Won fine.”
First, it is going to be difficult to convince me that there are two PVT Andre M. Fishers running around in the 4th Chemical Company at USAG-Casey.
Condition #1, they are the same Andre M. Fishers, has been met to my satisfaction.
This conviction was in another city and for different charges involving property and public property.
Jack’s explanation that Andre was keying cars rings more true than Jill’s avoidance in addressing the issue… while confirming that the police car incident had already been resolved a month earlier.
There is a real possibility that Andre’s family and supporters are unaware of this incident which appears to be unrelated. That would be an interesting twist.
The only question that remains, other than what actions brought on the July charges, is WHEN it happen… being that I was under the impression that he had been in jail since his arrest for the robbery and police car destruction.
I think the truth will be learned and posted here by a regular and trustable poster within 24 hours.
So we wait.
9:49 am on August 10th, 2011 111
“If” they were two seperate incidents than it in fact does have to be another Andre Fisher, (also when were attempting to locate the whereabouts of my brother to send his corrspondence to jail..we were informed that there are presently four (4) Andre Fisher’s (US citizens) that were currently incarcerated in prisons throughout Seoul..so it was difficult to find out which one was actually him, which also makes it plausible that it was not the Andre Fisher connected to the cab robbery) because he was already detained in a detention center…for allegations and conviction of robbery, assault, and destruction of property so he would not possibly be physcially able to key vehichles, unless he was keying prision vehicles??
10:11 am on August 10th, 2011 112
4 people with the same name all in the US military, all in Seoul, and all in jail…
….amazing…
10:21 am on August 10th, 2011 113
Yes,USinKorea we were not in belief of this ourselves and figured that due to the language barrier we/they were just not understanding; however, we had a family friend actually come to Korea in mid July on business and he attempted to locate Andre’s whereabouts to visit him while incarcerated and he encountered the same thing…Not sure if they are all in the military; however, they were all the same name and all incarcerated. I’m sorry,please do not mistake me for argumenatative I am just telling what we have encountered. Respectfully submitted, Jill
10:24 am on August 10th, 2011 114
sorry..came to Korea
10:28 am on August 10th, 2011 115
Jill,
This story gets curiouser and curiouser.
Considering the small number of Americans in Korean jail, I am slightly more than a little skeptical that there are FOUR Andre M. Fishers scattered throughout Seoul.
I guess it COULD be true. Apparently, there are two of them in the 4th Chemical Company at USAG-Casey.
10:44 am on August 10th, 2011 116
ChickenHead wrote:
When I wrote my appeals to you not to go after Andre Fisher, CH, I was keenly aware of your original conditionals for getting involved in such a big way.
However, you did seem to be sliding a bit toward going ahead with it, especially in light of your earlier supposition that he’s probably guilty:
But more importantly (in relation to what I wrote), my continued appeals to you to were prompted largely by at least one other commenter prodding you to go ahead (i.e., Jeff in #102).
I don’t buy that. The way you worded it, it seemed you were providing that as a justification for going the extra mile against Andre Fisher if those conditionals were met.
10:52 am on August 10th, 2011 117
ChickenHead wrote:
Stranger things have happened. I forgot what it was right now, but I had a serious problem with something back in the 1990s because my English name was input into my 외국인등록증 middle name first, with my first name cut off. It was a serious enough problem that I double, triple, then quadruple checked the documents that had my name on the deed to my apartment when I purchased it in 2002.
Middle names of foreign nationals are often ignored on Korean documents because (a) there is no computer or form field for them, and/or (b) the number of spaces available are limited because they are oriented toward Korean names, which are typically three spaces but can be only two or are rarely longer than five (e.g., a rare two-syllable last name and a rare three-character “pure” Korean name, such as 남궁모래알). I could imagine a screw-up occurring when someone on the English side at a desk in another city is trying to figure out which Andre Fisher this Andre Fisher is.
Plausible. Not necessarily likely, but quite plausible.
For now, all we have are the competing claims of Jack and Jill.
11:04 am on August 10th, 2011 118
“The way you worded it, it seemed you were providing that as a justification for going the extra mile against Andre Fisher if those conditionals were met.”
I am.
Absolutely.
And, if those conditions are met, I will. If they are not met, I will not… regardless of prompting.
I can’t state it any more clearly.
To give an additional level of clarity, I will add that I would never take any action without some form of proof which was generally agreed upon by the regular readers here.
11:15 am on August 10th, 2011 119
Okay, so I don’t think I’m remiss in appealing to you again not to do it, even if it apparently (e.g., beyond a reasonable doubt) looks like he did it. Unless he or his family tell you himself that he did the keying himself, there is enough reasonable doubt to give pause for going after him like that.
And who are you to use your connections to alter the outcome of this situation? Who is anyone? Would you think it fair for someone who drinks with the Prosecutor to say, “Hey, go easy on my nephew who got drunk and smashed up that bar”? To me, this is the same type of thing. It’s not right for you, completely separate from judicial hearings that would provide context or rationale of the players involved, to play judge and jury. Even if he really did what Jack is saying he did.
2:22 pm on August 10th, 2011 120
kushibo wrote:
That “315″ is a DSN area code or “theater code” for east Asia. DSN = Defense Switched Network. If you’re not in the military, it’s useless information, so I won’t go into an explanation of what it all means. Suffice it to say – it has nothing to do with New York.
6:01 pm on August 10th, 2011 121
Kushibo,
Come on.
“Stranger things have happened.”
If you truly believe it is possible for there to be 4 GIs named Andre M. Fisher in Korean jails around Seoul with a fifth one paying a fine in Uijongbu while being in the same company as one of the ones in jail…
…well…
…there is little we can discuss rationally.
You have let ideology replace reason in discussing the fate of Andre M. Fisher and you are grasping for rationalizations.
“Unless he or his family tell you himself that he did the keying himself”
Are you kidding? If they told me the sky was blue, grass was green, or water was wet, I’d have to double-check for myself.
You do realize that everything they have said from the beginning has been filled with misunderstandings, misrepresentations, exaggerations, omissions, possible lies… and now there are 4 Andre M. Fishers in SOFA detention facilities around Seoul… presumably all black and presumably all arrested for the same crime at the same time so there is absolutely no way to tell them apart.
Sigh.
I have met families who are so colossally stupid they live in a parallel reality due to their misperceptions of the world around them… and I have met families in which every member is a pathological liar… trying to cover each lie with a more outrageous one until they live in parallel reality, as well.
In both cases, I think they actually believe what they are saying… but everyone who comes in contact with them eventually figures it out.
I am starting to figure it out.
I would be curious to know if Andre is one of those guys who is constantly telling little lies to everyone around him… his car back in the States was faster, his sunglasses more expensive, he had that cellphone model before you could buy it in the store, he met the president when he was a kid, etc. We have all met one.
“And who are you to use your connections to alter the outcome of this situation?”
Who am I to stop and help an accident victim? Who am I to identify the purse snatcher in a line-up? Who am I to call the cops if someone is breaking into a house?
I am a member of society who has a duty to be sure all facts in a case are known… be they lies told to the judges… or be it evidence that shows the defendant is innocent.
Kushibo, are you saying it is right to be selective in what facts are known… or would you also conceal evidence that cleared Andre of any crime?
You make no sense.
6:14 pm on August 10th, 2011 122
Don’t have time to write as much as I’m thinking about right now, but to say that there are TWO Soldiers named PVT Andre Fisher BOTH assigned to 4th Chem. Co, Cp. Casey is well…more than impossible…
7:07 pm on August 10th, 2011 123
What ideology?
9:10 pm on August 10th, 2011 124
I don’t know anything about this case, but Andre Fisher or Fischer is a pretty common name. Google returns 14.8M hits.
9:34 pm on August 10th, 2011 125
I’m at a Starbucks in Barstow on a road trip break, so this is literally a drive-by comment: back when I was a GRE teacher, in a class of twenty students I had four named Kim Ch’ôl. Not Kim Ch’ôl-something, but just Kim Ch’ôl with two syllables.
But no, I think four 안드레 휘셔 is highly unlikely. I think mixed-up paperwork is a fairly plausible explanation for someone to have supposedly keyed cars while in jail, but the June and July adjudications being part if the same case seems most likely (though not a slam dunk).
At TWM, Jack hasn’t provided evidence of the claim that it was a keying, I think.
10:40 pm on August 10th, 2011 126
Kushibo,
“What ideology?”
I don’t know. What ideology? I give up.
If I were to guess, I would say you are approaching this from a criminals’ rights angle where everybody needs rehabilitation and nobody needs punishment. Everybody is a victim and nobody is responsible for their actions. Losers have the right to harm those who work hard and make an effort to not harm others. Etc.
Why else would you choose to ignore possible evidence that would clearly shows the character of the person in question?
Perhaps you misunderstand me.
Let me go to a whole new level of simple.
Part 1.
1. I am not convinced that Andre robbed the taxi based on any evidence available to the public.
2. Based on the actions of his “supporters”, I believe they know or suspect he robbed the taxi as all of the commotion is over procedure rather than guilt or innocence.
3. Based on USFK’s actions, I believe THEY believe he robbed the taxi… or could have robbed the taxi… or they don’t care because he is such a shyt soldier there is no reason to fight for him.
Part 2.
1. I don’t believe there is more than one PVT Andre M. Fisher, 4th Chemical Company, USAG-Casey, in the Army or in jail in Korea at any one time… and, if by some massive improbability there is, I believe everyone from the military to the Korean legal system could differentiate between them.
2. It appear there are two incidents in two cities. This may not be the case… but at this time, circumstantial evidence indicated there were two and they involved the same person. There is no evidence it was car keying… but that story makes more sense than anything said by his supporters. We can only wait for more info.
I realize most people live their lives in a reactionary way… but I have advance plans for many possible situations in life long before they happen… so I know exactly what I am going to do if my theory is proven, disproven, or remains inconclusive.
Part 3.
1. We all saw the pictures of a gentle, smiling Andre Fisher.
Let me show you the pictures you didn’t see.
http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/ff7ef772cae74006b3661b1d1bc37377/l.jpg
http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/91/622f688230208069367ce016e392db70/l.jpg
2. When we write badly about a good person who got in a bad situation, there are always supporters who show up here and write some sincere comments of support… Vang Her comes to mind. This style of support for Andre has been conspicuously absent… with a few comments that encourage burning him by those that appear to have some deeper knowledge of the situation.
3. There is not enough confirmed information to draw any definite conclusions… but there are a lot of small pieces that can only be assembled in certain ways… and none of them are complementary.
Part 4.
Kushibo,
Another pattern we frequently see here is when someone concentrates on the most dismissible point and ignores the rest. You ignored everything I wrote and concentrated only upon the ideology comment.
If you think my facts are wrong, my analysis is wrong, or my conclusions are wrong, please explain why.
Everything else is just diversion.
11:45 pm on August 10th, 2011 127
ChickenHead wrote:
According to the AKO White Pages, there are three soldiers in the US Army named Andre Fisher:
SPC Andre Fisher Sr
Army National Guard (Georgia)
SPC Andre J. Fisher
258th MP CO – Active Army
PV1 Andre M. Fisher
Active Army
3:45 am on August 11th, 2011 128
There seems to be no end to the circular arguments as to whether Fisher was the same person who was convicted of the crimes in both Seoul and Uijeongbu. If no one is willing or able to contact PAO and confirm this, maybe this will help break the deadlock.
The author of this article at 3WM claims to have been present at Fisher’s appeal on August 9th. http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/08/09/andre-fisher-shines-at-appeals-hearing-final-verdict-to-be-issued-on-august-25/
She writes that Fisher “… was sworn in with the help of the court’s English translator and proceeded to maintain his innocence and maintain that he has a spotless criminal record both in Seoul and the U.S.” Now, assuming that this is true, consider this analogy:
A man who does not beat his wife will simply say, “I do not beat my wife.” He does not say, “I do not beat my wife on Tuesdays,” because that implies that he beats his wife on other days of the week.
Similarly, if Fisher truly had a clean record both in Korea and the U.S., he would have said, “I have a spotless criminal record both in Korea and the U.S.” The fact that he said “Seoul and the U.S.” implies that there are other areas in Korea where he does not have a clean criminal record.
Of course, this is hardly definitive evidence, and is dependent on the 3WM author’s recollection of what Fisher said at the appeal being accurate.
However, assuming that it is accurate, this is circumstantial evidence that Fisher indeed was the person who committed both crimes. I would guess that Fisher knew that the 3 Judges at the appeal knew that he had been convicted in Uijeongbu a few weeks earlier, and realized that if he said he had a spotless record in Korea, they would instantly know he was lying, and that’s why he said Seoul.
5:36 am on August 11th, 2011 129
Kushibo, there is no way a paperwork mix up would lead to someone being convicted of different crimes in 2 different cities. Especially in a city like Uijongbu that used to processing GI crime cases. He was clearly convicted of crimes in 2 different cities. Possibly he committed the Uijongbu crime before the incident in Seoul and the Seoul crime was processed first because it was the more serious offense?
This is a more likely rationale than to claim a paperwork mix up leading to different conviction in two different towns or there being 2 different Andre Fishers in the 4th Chemical Company, or even 4 different Andre Fishers incarcerated in Seoul.
I have been waiting before throwing this out there because I don’t want people to think I am out to get Fisher because I am not, but I don’t think I have seen a GI crime case with more BS surrounding it than this one.
Anyway the Fisher supporters and media articles were claiming Fisher was a PFC. Both the court martial results and AKO show him to be a PV1. So what did he do to get knocked down two ranks? He had to have received a field grade article 15 to lose 2 ranks that would have been presided over by his battalion commander. For those not familiar with the military this means he did something significant to receive a field grade.
Maybe one of the Fisher supporters could explain this latest inconsistency?
6:14 am on August 11th, 2011 130
I’m pretty much calling BS on the lot of this.
It stretches the imagination too far beyond the breaking point to picture 4 foreingers with the same first and last name in jail in Seoul at the same time.
I’m starting to think that someone is jerking our chain who has almost no familiarity with Korea.
I believe all GIs convicted in Korea are held in one Korean prison with a wing set aside for them. There is no way the family would have much trouble getting him mail. The US military handles that.
4 with the same name all arrested and convicted and put in prison in Seoul at the same time? No English translator provided by the military? No USFK lawyer provided in court?
I really don’t care about this case any more, because I think the outcome is pretty much assured no matter what.
But I don’t like people using the aninimoty of the internet to try to make people look like fools…
If I didn’t have admin status here, I’d start to think maybe this was one of those times some bored, juvenile expat in Korea decided to have “fun” by jerking everybody around. Like the time someone at Dave’s claimed there was a gangrape of a female teacher in Pusan or Masan, I forget which.
But, the person posting as “Jill” does have an IP and other items that seem to fit the claim to at least by a part of the family or connected to it.
These other things just don’t check out. And add them all together…
There is a chance the person is just using the site as a propaganda tool – like with the radio interviews and other sites.
6:27 am on August 11th, 2011 131
And again – it’s irritating because it is such a wasted effort.
This isn’t a murder, rape, bank heist or something where the guy was going to go to jail for many years.
Even if USFK takes a crack at him once the Korean appeals court lets him go with a suspended sentence once they knock the sentence down, he isn’t accused of much of a crime….
All this trouble over a petty theft and some knocks on a police vehicle…..
It’s just stupid.
7:50 am on August 11th, 2011 132
Not by a long shot, ChickenHead.
If I have any “ideology” on this at all, it’s that I’m very uncomfortable with the idea of someone sitting comfortably in their Internet anonymity reaching out and hurting someone in the real world.
Even if it turns out Andre Fisher keyed some cars, he’s already paying for that and the courts already have that in their system. You (or someone you’ve egged on with your comments above) don’t need to use your judicial connections to make things worse for a total stranger completely unconnected to you (and based solely on bad things you’ve read about him on the Internet).
From the get-go, I haven’t made the case for anything except that (a) Three Wise Monkeys has done a piss-poor job of objectively making this case, (b) people with an axe to grind about Korea have taken up this cause, (c) there is a possibility of inaccurate information in Jack’s contention about the same Fisher being involved in a wholly separate incident involving keying cars, enough room for doubt that people shouldn’t be reaching out to hurt the guy over that, a notion that should be discarded.
There’s my ideology.
I “concentrated” on the ideology comment in a two-word post, one I was able to crank out at a stop light while beginning a 300-mile road trip. Accusing me of ulterior motives when I thought I was being pretty clearly opposed to the idea of reaching out and hurting a stranger on the Internet stuck out as such a major turn in your commentary that I wanted to ask you what you were talking about.
8:08 am on August 11th, 2011 133
GI Korea wrote:
That’s not really what I was suggesting as a possibility with a paperwork. I was thinking of the possibility of the same crime getting listed twice somehow in the same USFK court-martial/conviction ledger (citing my own case where I received two separate adjudications for the same “crime”), or even something as mundane as the person typing it up mistyping when setting it up. After all, we’re apparently looking at a case where someone is supposed to have committed a second separate crime while incarcerated for the first.
Possibly. Is it possible that a decision on a monetary punishment for the same crime would lead to the second adjudication, something similar to what happened with my own case?
Jack is the one saying with certainty that this was a separate crime by the same person and that it was keying. I am not in a position to make an international call to the PAO (my past experience with them indicates such a call wouldn’t be helpful or if it finally revealed answered, it would be after blowing a hole in my AT&T bill) to find out if (a) he’s the same person and (b) his 1 million won fine was for keying cars in a wholly separate incident. So for now, all we have is Jack’s assertion and his insistence we call the PAO to verify it.
Can anyone in country call and verify this?
Ultimately, however, the bulk of what I’ve been saying about the various possibilities that Jack’s assertion is not correct is not to profess Andre Fisher’s innocence but to appeal against ChickenHead’s idea of reaching out and hurting a total stranger encountered on the Internet. Having been a target of people doing things like that myself in incidents going back to the 1990s, that kind of thing is a big deal to me.
8:17 am on August 11th, 2011 134
ChickenHead wrote:
Until someone gets ahold of court records or the PAO confirms one way or the other, “that story” of Jack’s is just a story.
And while it is a plausible story (a wholly separate crime might explain the court’s harsh sentence for Mr Fisher, which would negate the need for you to sic your judge buddy on this total stranger), it’s odd that Jack knows what it was, but doesn’t know when. It’s also plausible Jack’s “speculation” (GI Korea’s word in #105) is nothing more than a guess dressed up as a missing fact. But like it or not, your impressions shifted considerably based no this hitherto unsupported assertion.
8:18 am on August 11th, 2011 135
That’s enough for me today. I’ve got a funeral to finish arranging. Alert me if someone gets through to the PAO.
8:39 am on August 11th, 2011 136
Kushibo,
I understand.
We just have different perspectives on reality based on our own unique experiences.
You don’t like people hunting you down on the Internet and I declared war on thieves, vandals, and other assorted spoilers long ago.
Of course, we don’t now that he keyed cars… we only know that every piece of circumstantial evidence that has come out so far is against him… which is kinda odd.
But don’t worry, Kushibo. I won’t reach out and hurt a total stranger.
…well, unless it turns out he is a shytbag vandal… in which case he has it coming… so why are you worried about it?
3:53 pm on August 11th, 2011 137
Kushibo,
I understand that it might be frustrating and expensive for you to call PAO from the US.
This is what I recommend – on the Court Martial Results website, they have an email contact where you can direct questions or comments (top right of the page).
http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/content.court.martial.results.29
Now the person behind that email may just be the guy who posts all the information, and maybe he can’t answer your questions. But if he cannot, I think it’s highly possible that if you ask him for the email address of someone who can discuss the substantive contents of the results, this could be done, and it will cost you nothing.
4:16 pm on August 11th, 2011 138
This list doesn’t show a rank of PV1. Maybe someone thought it was a synonym for PFC (E3), and someone else thought it was the abbreviation for Private (E1), which doesn’t seem to have any three-character abbreviation.
5:17 pm on August 11th, 2011 139
Glans,
An E-1 is usually abbreviated PVT by the military, but where the confusion kicks in is when the newspaper gets involved because they use a different standard for abbreviating military ranks – and it is NOT the same as what the DoD uses:
http://www.stripes.com/opinion/stars-and-stripes-letters-policy-1.101452
(look about half-way down in that FAQ for their explanation)
To further muddy the waters, we read earlier somewhere that Fisher was once more than an E-1 so some records may show him at a different rank at different times, but as was pointed out by a previous poster, if he’s already an E-1 now, then the Army has already imposed Field Grade non-judicial punishment (NJP) on him to reduce his rank by several grades (from either E-3 or E-4 to E-1). This isn’t something that’s done lightly – if it were some minor offense for the military, they would have used either Company Grade or Summarized NJP on him, in which the penalties are much less and the max he could have gotten (rank-reduction-wise, with a Company Grade) is the reduction of one rank. So again, since the military has already taken a swing at him, he’s definitely already guilty of something…
You can read all about non-judicial punishment right here:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/article15.htm
8:16 pm on August 11th, 2011 140
Jack – I think I know who you are. I also think that you’re wasting your time and probably need to get laid more often
Just one question – if you are who I think you are, did you get top cover for this?
11:33 pm on August 11th, 2011 141
#78
Ahahaha.
4:00 pm on August 28th, 2011 142
The US Army’s abbreviations for the three ranks of Private are as follows:
Private (E-1) = PVT
Private (E-2) = PV2
Private First Class = PFC
Regardless of whether the reporting is following the Army’s own abbreviation style or the civilian style, there is no case where PVT is used to abbreviate Private First Class.