By Speculation has been running rampant in regards to the Andre Fisher case on whether his other appearance in the ROK criminal prosecution results in July 2011 was in any way related to the original crime he was convicted of in June 2011 of robbing a taxi driver and trashing a police car.
If you haven’t been following this case I recommend reading these two prior postings:
- Was USFK Soldier Andre Fisher Falsely Convicted By A Korean Court?
- USFK Provides Details About Andre Fisher Case
His sister said the July conviction was related back to the original incident and that he had nothing to do with keying cars, while a commenter claiming insider knowledge at 3WM who first publicized this case, said Fisher was convicted of keying cars after the original taxi robbery case. The commenter said that anyone contacting the USFK Public Affairs Office would be able to confirm this. So that is what I did.
Before continuing on let me just re-emphasize that I am not out to get Andre Fisher; I am just providing facts on an issue where there has been a whole lot of speculation and misinformation spread around both the mainstream media and Internet. Much of the initial media reports on this case were very critical of USFK and the Korean justice system. I am not opposed to people being critical of either institution when warranted, but at least solid evidence should be provided to substantiate such claims. In regards to this case Fisher’s supporters have never provided such evidence to support accusations against either USFK or the Korean legal system.
Anyway after contacting the PAO, I was forwarded a statement of what Andre Fisher was convicted of by the Korean courts in July 2011 that is an approved message from the Staff Judge Advocate Office:
On 21 July 11 Pvt Andre Fisher was sentenced to a fine of 1,000000 won
for:1) Damage to Private Property – On 28 May 2011, the Soldier while
intoxicated made scratches on the passenger side of a parked vehicle in
Donducheon.After being transported to Songnae police station in Dongducheon for
above listed offense,2)Damage to Public Property – Damaging partitions by kicking in above
mentioned police station.
So clearly Fisher was involved in a separate incident after his original arrest for robbing the taxi driver in November 2010. To make things even further interesting is that Fisher gave an interview to a blogger based in Gwangju. Here are some highlights from the interview that I will point out:
Andre describes prison conditions as pretty fair, saying, “The guards try to treat us as good as they can.” He adds he has his own room, a television with limited channels, and he gets outside his room for four hours a day except Sundays when there’s no exercise hour, and Tuesdays when SOFA people come with food for the week, including eggs, sausages and bacon, and MRAs of which he’s eaten more than enough. His only complaints are the food and the boredom. He enjoys reading ESPN Sports magazine but otherwise has too much time to sit around ‘thinking way too much’.
Note that MRA’s should be MRE as in Meal Ready to Eat; simple mistake. Anyway I point out this passage solely because it stands in contrast to what the Fisher supporters have been saying about his conditions in the Korean prison. One media article even went so far as to claim he was facing Midnight Express like conditions. He is facing the conditions in the Korean jail that I have posted about before here on the ROK Drop. I had a Soldier in Korean prison who actually preferred it over being held in the confinement facility at Camp Humphreys because of all the additional amenities and freedoms they have.
Here is an excerpt where Fisher admits to resisting arrest and trashing the police car, which wasn’t disclosed by Fisher’s supporters until I posted about it here on the ROK Drop:
When I tell Andre of the suggestion of a member of an online community who had read and interpreted the charges, he admits that he did cause damage to the police car when being arrested. He explains that had been surrounded by a ring of police late at night and had not seen any reason for going to the police station as he knew he had not done anything wrong, so yes, he resisted arrest, eventually even going so far as to kick out the back seat door window of the police car. “I apologized immediately and offered to pay for it though” he insists, looking straight at me with a look of earnest sincerity now on his face.
Fisher makes it sound like it was the natural thing to do to resist arrest simply because he felt like he didn’t do anything wrong. The fact that Fisher would then a few months later trash a police station in a drunken fit as well shows he may have a problem with controlling himself when drinking alcohol. This is something that those who are friends with Fisher may be better able to answer.
Here is another excerpt that raises questions:
I ask about the CCTV footage mentioned on one of the news channel’s clips available online. He tells me his friend and military buddy Joseph Johnson saw the original footage, and said that it showed someone’s wearing a hoodie and so obscuring their face, and wasn’t very clear at that.
This excerpt shows that Fisher has never seen the so called grainy video footage himself and is instead relying on second hand information from his military buddy named Joseph Johnson. I looked up Joseph Johnson on Army Knowledge Online (AKO) and found that there was 13 people with this name in the Army. 8 of them were contractors and 5 of them were senior NCO’s who are people that a private probably isn’t buddies with. Also none of the Joseph Johnson’s on AKO list Korea as their duty station. So I can’t confirm who this guy is. It also begs the question of why this guy was shown the video and Fisher wasn’t?
Speaking of other people involved in this case here is what Fisher had to say about who he was with the night of the arrest:
I ask Andre if he was completely alone the night of his arrest, or if he had been out with others that evening. He looks to his right for a second, and then to his left as he starts to answer. He tells me that he was with a friend whom he’d ‘just met’ in a club. The friend was named ‘Jarrod Jeffry’, and as I start to write he spells the name carefully for me without my prompting. I note it dutifully, wondering at both the lack of final ‘e’ in the family name, and why Andre would need to know such a detail if they had ‘just met’. Andre continues, adding that he was probably aged about ‘twenty-two-ish” and that Jarrod had “told me he was an English teacher in Seoul.”
If you read the rest of the interview you will see that Fisher tries to lay the blame for the robbery on this Jarrod Jeffry character. The interviewer tries to locate this Jarrod Jeffry and cannot find any information about someone with this name online. The interviewer later speaks with Fisher’s girlfriend who claims that Jarrod Jeffry is someone in their unit who recently PCSed out of Korea. For those that don’t know Fisher’s unit is the 4th Chemical Company at Camp Casey which apparently his girlfriend is also a Soldier with. Since the interviewer doesn’t have access to AKO he can’t confirm the girlfriend’s story but I can. After doing an AKO search for both a “Jarrod Jeffry” and even a “Jarrod Jeffrey” I did not find anyone with that name in the US Army. So here is yet another inconsistency in the story that now even involves Fisher’s girlfriend.
This inconsistency also sheds doubt on the claims made by Fisher’s family and supporters that the Korean courts did not allow Fisher to call witnesses to defend him in regards to what happened that night. Well how can Andre Fisher call someone to defend him in court that apparently doesn’t exist? Even if he does exist how is this the Korean courts fault that this guy doesn’t turn himself in to testify? It seems like there is definitely more to this story.
There is plenty more to read in the interview that is well worth checking out in its entirety. I would like to thank Julian in Gwangju for taking the time to conduct this interview. It definitely sheds further light on this case. Unsurprisingly Fisher’s family and supporters are at this time no longer communicating with him.
So what have we learned from these latest revelations? Well first of all as I have suspected from the beginning, Fisher has not been telling the whole story of what happened. He definitely knows more about what happened that night in November 2010 considering the inconsistencies in his stories. Besides the inconsistencies we also know that Fisher has been convicted of multiple crimes in Korea in two different cities. Finally we know that Fisher has not been in jail since his arrest in November 2010 for robbing the taxi driver since he was arrested for being drunk and keying a car in Dongducheon in May 2011.
This is what I think is going on. I suspect that Fisher may have an alcohol problem that could be responsible for his violent behavior with the Korean police in two separate incidents. This possible alcohol problem may have also led to the incident with the taxi driver. I am also leaving open the possibility that he is covering for someone who really did commit the crime as well. Fisher’s family and supporters keep saying what a great kid he is. There is no reason to doubt this, however, has any of them seen this guy drunk in Korea? I have seen people that were otherwise very nice people do outrageous things they later regretted due to getting drunk and stupid in the villes in Korea. He would be far from being the first Soldier to do something stupid in Korea due to not being able to handle his alcohol consumption.
If his alcohol problem is what led to the incident with the cab driver he should have manned up, apologized, and accepted the punishment. If another scenario happened where Fisher is covering for someone that actually did rob the taxi driver than I think this reflects even worse on him than the alcohol scenario. Than there is always the possibility that Fisher was by himself and falsely accused by the taxi driver, but lied about the “Jarrod Jeffry” character in order to defend himself. The Korean judges probably took into consideration all these inconsistent stories when they handed out their two year sentence to Fisher. Usually for a theft crime like Fisher was convicted of a two year sentence that is suspended is what is given. However, as more information is made available the fact that he is apparently not telling the whole story about what happened that night is probably why the Korean judges did not suspend his sentence. Fortunately for Fisher due to a crime as minor as this one I would be surprised if his sentence isn’t reduced on appeal. The results of his appeal will be given on August 25th.
Once Fisher is out of the Korean jail then he will have to deal with the US military. Considering that he was reduced from a Private First Class to a Private due to an Article 15 action of some kind prior to his latest run in with the Korean legal system, Private Fisher obviously has been showing a pattern of misconduct that could see him chaptered from the military. That is something his unit leadership will have to decide on; what I have decide on is that Fisher is not telling the whole story about what happened and has made a lot of false accusations that in my opinion are much more offensive than his alcohol problem that may have led to all this trouble in the first place.
8:55 am on August 17th, 2011 1
The speculation which went on here matches reality to a shocking extent… yet again.
Congratulations, ROKers for sniffing out the truth before it was revealed… yet again.
USFK should be commended for their openness which shows they are neither trying to take advantage of the Korean legal system nor abandoning a mistreated soldier.
This puts a lot more faith in the sincere intentions of current USFK leadership than in previous regimes… and builds trust and understanding when important issues truly need to be kept secret.
Again, thanks for showing USFK, in contrast to many other government entities, is refreshingly honest and open.
Further note to USFK: If you really want to be cool, dust off the files to Vang Her and tell us why he was found naked and dead on a remote stretch of road in a cloud of secrecy so thick that even his close family couldn’t get any meaningful answers.
Anyway, there is only one remaining question…
Is Andre Fisher’s family in denial, did he lie to them about the facts in the case while omitting the other offenses (which certainly show a pattern of drunken and violent shytbaggery), or is the whole family a bunch of lying slimeballs?
I am going to speculate it is the latter for a number of reasons… from an avoidance of pursuing evidence-gathering that could show the facts… to the refusal to take advantage of the USFK/Korean legal system knowledge offered here… to the strategic deletion of parts of the whole story… to the unnecessary public misrepresentation of many aspects of the arrest, trial, and confinement… etc.
…but the best one is that there are not four Jeffery Fishers in jail in Korea and anybody who says otherwise is either a complete liar or so dumb they should just be put to sleep.
I would hope that Jill Fisher would respond… or, at the least, ask the questions necessary to make this all clear for her family.
But, as we have seen in the past, when the hard questions get asked or the truth comes out, those who are knowingly wrong are never heard from again.
I feel a limerick coming on soon…
9:15 am on August 17th, 2011 2
He’s at the prison for foreigners, the first of its kind in the world. It’s a showpiece.
Eggs, sausage, bacon, and MREs? Sounds yummy.
Regular prisons serve kongbab (rice with beans), soup, and kimchi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongbap#Kongbap_in_culture
I don’t know if they were being sarcastic, but the Somali pirates sure seem to have enjoyed it:
http://newamericamedia.org/2011/01/captured-pirates-rave-about-s-korean-prison-food.php
10:15 am on August 17th, 2011 3
A taxi driver received Jeffery’s thuggery
and the court didn’t buy his skulduggery.
So for robbers near bars,
and keyers of cars,
prison brings some much-deserved buggery.
4:13 pm on August 17th, 2011 4
Wow, I just went over to the the facebook page http://www.facebook.com/groups/fishercominghome/) and they are saying that ROKDrop is spreading vicious lies. I can’t believe the utter denial coming from the family and friends. They say these are unfounded claims with no facts. I think this site is the one place that has secured facts on the events that occurred. I haven’t seen a single fact coming from the supporters.
5:10 pm on August 17th, 2011 5
I did find a JEFFRY, on AKO with a different first name. But they are both members of the Chemical Branch. Coincidence? Probably. But thought that was interesting, but probably not signifigant.
As somebody who stuck up for this kid in the begining I am really disapointed in the details that have comeout since I fist heard this story. Kudos to the media, and blogoshphere for doing their due diligence on this case. It pretty obvious this guy is not only guilty of the orginial crime by being accesory or the actual culprit, but also another drunken idiot crime. I with GI Korea when he says this guy wouldnt be the fist “nice guy” to come to Korea and get liquered up and act the fool!
5:24 pm on August 17th, 2011 6
#4
Hm, 600 members.
#5
Young + liquor + no parents watching you = bad things going to happen.
5:46 pm on August 17th, 2011 7
So I wonder if the Hazelton, PA station that ran the original story back in the states will produce an update based on this new information…? Yeah, right
6:27 pm on August 17th, 2011 8
So. Now they are calling the US Army liars?
I like all the prayers being passed around but one could argue an all-knowing, eternal and I mean omnipotent deity has always known all this would transpire since… forever, and it allowed it to happen. It seems they lack faith, which I find disturbing. Why are they second guessing The Almighty? Prayer requests after any action seems tantamount to blaspheme. Arte the saying The Great Lord made a mistake and are now trying to change its mind? It seems their god made its decision and they should respect that.
/Where are the Rev Jackson and Al Sharpton on this issue? Too busy shaking down Coca Cola?
//Praying for riot.
6:55 pm on August 17th, 2011 9
[...] Just goes to show my belief that MOST people in jail do actually belong there. [...]
7:32 pm on August 17th, 2011 10
Is there any fundraising going on with this “cause”? Usually those are the ones who don’t want these things to die. Others are just too stupid to understand the facts.
2- A McDonald’s Happy Meal, eaten in freedom, would taste better than any meal in prison.
7:40 pm on August 17th, 2011 11
I just scrolled through the facebook thing. Ma, there are people praying their asses off over there. They are praying so hard that I’m surprised the earth doesn’t spin backward so we all go back in time therefore allowing Jebus to intercede on behalf of Andre, twice, as he is innocent and been convicted twice in two different cities at two different times! They need to pray much harder though. Perhaps if they squeeze they eyes really tight together, the holy ghost will split the pacific ocean and Andre will be chauffeured home by the taxi driver he robbed in the car he keyed with Lil’ Kim giving him a blowjob! THAT would be a empirical!
The keying car incident in TDC pisses me off more than any of his other antics. We ALL know, or have had that happen to us. I agree with Chickenhead. He’s lucky I didn’t catch him or he would have been beyond hope for any prayer power to save him.
/scumbag
//funny all the really big important things in this world, with real injustice, these people aren’t praying over
7:42 pm on August 17th, 2011 12
10. Can’t be as bad as the cabbage rolls at the Terre Haute federal pen.
8:20 pm on August 17th, 2011 13
@#4 – Fisher’s friends and family are more than welcome to come here and point out which facts are wrong. I have provided published facts from the USFK court martial results, information provided by both the 2ID PAO and SJA offices, and published excerpts from an interview done with him in jail.
The only way these are not facts is if USFK, the PAO, the SJA, and the interviewer from Gwangju are all part of an elaborate conspiracy against a private in the 4th Chemical Company.
I have also clearly stated what is opinion based on the facts available. In my opinion based on years of experience in Korea it appears to me that alcohol was probably what contributed greatly to these incidents happening. I do not know if he robbed the taxi driver but based on the information available it sure seems like he either did it or is covering for someone else who did.
8:47 pm on August 17th, 2011 14
I appreciate that GI Korea took the time and effort (and expense?) to contact the PAO.
A few thoughts…
First, regardless of innocence or guilt, it appears Mr Fisher has a serious drinking problem in that he can get out of control when he’s drunk. Irrespective of whether he got a fair trial or not, his loved ones and anyone who truly cares about him should help him address this. Sadly, I still believe that some who have championed his cause have done so not because of actually caring about Mr Fisher but because Mr Fisher is a proxy for their own Korea demons.
Second, this is what I wrote at Three Wise Monkeys when this first came out, and I think it has been borne out:
Third, I’m beginning to believe that taking the opposite side of Stephannie White in any contentious issue is a good default position to take.
Fourth, how many cars did he key? Whose car(s)? Jack came along and said he keyed “cars” (plural), which is a different situation from keying one, especially if it was a specific car for a specific reason. When Jack mentioned cars plural having been keyed, I imagined a situation like the time I got a 3 a.m. call from the police asking me to come to the station and file a claim against some drunkard who had gone up and down our residential street whacking the side-view mirrors off a number of cars. If Mr Fisher, on the other hand, keyed a single car in anger over an arrest or something, that’s not the serial vandal I was imagining if Jack had been wholly correct.
GI Korea quoted the PAO:
The USFK crime report wrote:
So the car was private property but the police station partitions were public property? Seems 1 million won was a light fine for a serious car keying, unless he also made amends for the car keying separate from the 1 million won fine.
8:58 pm on August 17th, 2011 15
John in NY wrote:
Do you have some links to specific comments. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but I’m not finding any mention of ROK Drop, GI Korea, or even ChickenHead at that site.
9:09 pm on August 17th, 2011 16
The best I can do is copy the text. Let’s hope it comes out ok.
Casey, Julian etc..all ther are many vicious lies…accusations coming out of publications in Korea and I have to say that I have stopped reading them because they were literally making me physcially and mentally ill. Andre is not guility and it just appears as though people are “talking” about him in their blogs/magazines etc…because it is getting people to “notice” there publications. I am sorry that they have so much time in their lives and that they attempt to destroy families and lives of others. I pray for them each and every night that they see the err of their ways. However, anyone is allowed to think, feel..what they want and we all have the freedom of speech so bascially they can do/say whatever they want….I just know that I will not be reading their rhetoric. THANKS SO MUCH CASEY FOR THE I have not read anything as of late Julian..and as I said before I trust your judgment and opnion and do not believe anything coming from you would be harmful. I was absolutely not referring to you when I said about magazines/bloggers…I actually just know of one site that has been continually bashing him, and I have not read another comment on their site because as I said before I was truly sickened!! You, Anekia, Liam etc.. have done nothing but help Andre and our family…and I am truly grateful for that!! Andre actually wrote a letter to me the other day and mentioned he was visited by a “really cool” guy named Julian..again I thank you for that as he did not know at the time that his story even reached Korea. I just hope and pray for the best and that he is released sooner than later..because he is not sounding good and I feel the longer he is inprisoned the more desperate he will become; unfortunately, we are not over there to provide him with any support and it appears as though his friends from base have also not been able to support him as much as they were in the beginning, understandbly so…they have a life also. It is just extremly difficult for us being here and him being there..thousands of miles away, with little/no resources on the ground over there for him. I will not read anything more that bloggers, articles etc..have to say/report because I know what Andre has told me and I believe in him and support him one hundred precent!! AND SUPPORT AS YOU CAN SEE WE/ANDRE NEED THEM!!
Monday at 12:47pm
Another one:
9:09 pm on August 17th, 2011 17
I have not read anything as of late Julian..and as I said before I trust your judgment and opnion and do not believe anything coming from you would be harmful. I was absolutely not referring to you when I said about magazines/bloggers…I actually just know of one site that has been continually bashing him, and I have not read another comment on their site because as I said before I was truly sickened!! You, Anekia, Liam etc.. have done nothing but help Andre and our family…and I am truly grateful for that!! Andre actually wrote a letter to me the other day and mentioned he was visited by a “really cool” guy named Julian..again I thank you for that as he did not know at the time that his story even reached Korea. I just hope and pray for the best and that he is released sooner than later..because he is not sounding good and I feel the longer he is inprisoned the more desperate he will become; unfortunately, we are not over there to provide him with any support and it appears as though his friends from base have also not been able to support him as much as they were in the beginning, understandbly so…they have a life also. It is just extremly difficult for us being here and him being there..thousands of miles away, with little/no resources on the ground over there for him. I will not read anything more that bloggers, articles etc..have to say/report because I know what Andre has told me and I believe in him and support him one hundred precent!!
9:18 pm on August 17th, 2011 18
Maybe I’m taking too far a leap but this is the site which confronted her and rather than fight back with facts, she decided she’d had enough. This is also the site that has picked apart her claims and broke her will to fight. Rather than back up her statements, her attitude was we were attacking her and destroying her life. This is the one site that did most of the true fact finding to confront and challenge her statements.
12:33 am on August 18th, 2011 19
Thank you for calling the PAO GI Korea.
Great blog!
12:38 am on August 18th, 2011 20
In my opinion he should be dishonorably discharged from the US military. As Jay Thomas says, “Get rid of em!”
1:32 am on August 18th, 2011 21
I’m starting to feel like a hungry shark in bloody water.
6:02 am on August 18th, 2011 22
By the way, #16 and #17 are the quotes taken from the facebook page.
6:28 am on August 18th, 2011 23
“2- A McDonald’s Happy Meal, eaten in freedom, would taste better than any meal in prison.”
True, but my point was that bacon and eggs beats beans and rice any day, which is what he’d get if he was in a regular jail. Hell, although MREs not nearly as good as our IMPs, I’d be happy to have them if I was in his place. As Leon Laporte said, it beats the slop he’d get served if he was imprisoned in the US.
7:01 am on August 18th, 2011 24
To make something clear…Someone I’m very close to is facing some jail time. I made a conscious decision from the beginning that I wouldn’t allow his problems to ruin my health, and affect my family in the process, no matter how much I worry for his welfare. I made a conscious decision to take control of my emotions and look at the facts with an open mind. It was very liberating. It allowed me to see that he is not as innocent as he claims.
They are doing themselves no good by ignoring the facts.
7:02 am on August 18th, 2011 25
@#19- Thanks for the compliment.
@#14- Kushibo the statement of what he did in Dongducheon that was approved by the SJA is all the detail that was provided and really do we need any more?
@#16- In regards to the Facebook comments it seems like there is a whole lot of denial going on over there. They think I am out to get Fisher which is hardly the case. If his case wasn’t publicized with complaints of SOFA violations, racist Koreans, and uncaring USFK it would just have been just another case in the court martial results not worthy of much notice.
If people are going to make such claims they should expect other people to look into them. The media sources that publicized this incident earlier should have did this from the beginning but they didn’t.
Fisher probably isn’t a bad guy as his supporters claim but just because you are a nice guy doesn’t mean that he didn’t do the stupid things that he has been convicted of.
7:20 am on August 18th, 2011 26
Teadrinker – Sorry to hear that. He will get out eventually, and then it’s going to be tough for him because of the stigma and criminal record. That’s where you’ll really be able to help out again. It must have been a big shock to you.
8:39 am on August 18th, 2011 27
#26,
Not really. It’s actually a relief because I’ve been bracing myself for it for years. Someone people have self-destructive tendencies. It’s hard to care for someone who doesn’t care for himself. It’s like people who are drowning. If you get too close, they drag you down with them.
8:43 am on August 18th, 2011 28
Got it. Sucks you have to deal with that.
9:08 am on August 18th, 2011 29
Nah, like I said, I’m not letting it affect me. I’m a realist. It’s out of my control. It would be worse if I were in denial about it all. That’s why I feel sorry for that guy’s family. It must be hard to swallow because probably have never seen that side of him.
9:11 am on August 18th, 2011 30
I meant to say, it must be hard to swallow for them because they’ve probably never seen that dark side of him.
9:13 am on August 18th, 2011 31
Anyways, thanks.
9:22 am on August 18th, 2011 32
Hey Teadrinker
I get the impression from your above postings that you make a particularly good friend whose insights should be appreciated by those around you.
2:55 pm on August 18th, 2011 33
I suppose that person close to Teadrinker is going to a Canadian gaol. I hope conditions are decent there.
3:09 pm on August 18th, 2011 34
#10, well they are selling t-shirts if that counts.
#6, 598 now.
3:35 pm on August 18th, 2011 35
GI Korea wrote:
Well, whether it was a single car while drunk or multiple cars while angry makes a difference in how he should be treated and perhaps his prospects for turning his life around.
At the very least, in either case he really does appear to have a drinking problem and needs help. Does the military provide an avenue for that? It’s too bad his family (supposedly) no longer comes here, because I think they need to at least get their heads around that notion.
ChickenHead wrote:
That so many people in America think sexual assault in prison is funny and/or just deserts is pretty messed up.
5:32 pm on August 18th, 2011 36
Kushibo,
No argument from me there.
The overreaching drug laws and harsh mandatory sentencing for minor victimless drug “crimes” is a national shame.
As it was explained to me by a former prison guard…
It takes young, mostly-harmless guys who like to smoke a little pot or deal enough to support their habit and turns them into career criminals by exposing them to the true animals that run the prisons and then reducing their post-prison options.
The lifers who run the race-based prison gangs collude to increase membership by specifically telling non-members they will be unprotected from prison raape if they don’t join. Once they join for protection, they are obligated to commit further crimes in prison which can add years to their stay.
If they do not join, they become fair game for members of other race-based gangs to raape.
Sometimes there is some 300 pound queen who threatens or uses violence to get someone to rape him.
Nice.
Anyway, Kushibo, like those women who marry serial killers, I know you have some sort of prison love affair going on with Jeffery Fisher… as you have been defending the most ridiculous of rationalizations to deny every possible indication of guilt… and slinking away to do it all over again from a new angle when you are proven yet again wrong.
You should notice that EVERY speculation about his shytbaggedness has come out COMPLETELY true.
Regardless of your “stranger things have happened”, there is only one Jeffery Fisher… and there were two court dates for two different crimes… and he did key at least one car… and violently damaged police property TWICE… and he has lost substantial rank for reasons still unknown… and he IS surrounded by liars, from his family to his supporters to his girlfriend, who lie so outrageously that only those who are emotionally attached for some reason can say anything positive about the guy.
As far as prison raape goes, in a Korea prison… especially a SOFA prison… Jeffery has little worry of that.
You can sleep easy… as your lover will be unspoilt.
…and will be free to meet you in a couple of years.
8:03 pm on August 18th, 2011 37
I notice ChickenHead says raape. If he didn’t double the a, would his comment be trapped as spam?
8:14 pm on August 18th, 2011 38
rape
8:15 pm on August 18th, 2011 39
Nope
8:17 pm on August 18th, 2011 40
So he had some devious, nefarious reason to double the vowel.
8:39 pm on August 18th, 2011 41
While it seems that I wrote raape to avoid any possibility of the spam filter, the REAL reason is because I just like the way it flows with a doubled vowel…
…raape!
…raaaaape!
…sweet, sweet prison raaaaape!
I find it sounds even better with a bit of spittle around the corners of my mouth.
9:37 pm on August 18th, 2011 42
Hmmm. I was an early supporter of Andre’s and even started the petiton to Congress. I also attended the hearing. Thank you ROK Drop for the details because Lord knows we weren’t getting them from the family. SOme of us noticed they started backing off when we started asking for specific details on the case and what happened and became annoyed. My support is now hanging on by a thread, but only due to irritation at their unresponsiveness when we request details.
My stance from the very beginning was ensuring Fisher got a FAIR trial and that the army was doing its part in making sure he didn’t get screwed. I’m still not convinced of his guilt, especially since the prosecutor wasn’t present at the hearing and the arguments Fisher made weren’t disputed (at the hearing…I was there…)…that said, I’m also not saying he’s innocent…I’ve only been hearing Fisher’s side of the argument and went to the hearing hoping to hear the other side and heard nothing new…
Also, I think it’s important to remember that Fisher’s character (per se) isn’t on trial here. He owned up to the property destruction and made restitution. What he’s on trial for is stealing the $88. If the perpetrator’s face was not visible (his argument at the hearing which was not disputed…)…then there is reasonable doubt, plain and simple.
Fisher may very well be a knucklehead kid who needs to be whipped into shape. He may very well have anger issues, especially when intoxicated….but we must remember that he’s not on trial for that stuff…and this could’ve still been a railroading…of course, we still don’t know that for sure…
Lastly, yes, the army is providing the services his supporters were saying they weren’t…my question is, were they providing it from the very beginning or did they start getting their act together when the scrutiny started?…just a thought.
Love your blog! Thanks for your research in this!
9:53 pm on August 18th, 2011 43
Well now, but originally, and what the 2 year sentence was based on, was robbery. which meant it was stealing $88 and intimidation/violence. They’ve dropped that because of lack of evidence or so I heard, but it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. When this was first raised, everywhere, the story was that it was just about $88 but at that time it was about far more than $88. The constant lying either directly or by omission really isn’t doing a lot to help his case or the case of his supporters.
10:12 pm on August 18th, 2011 44
I’ve been away and didn’t read all the comments…
The confirmation of another convication should shut the door on anything the man has to say. He has no credibility.
I also believe “Jill” and family have virtually no credibility now.
At first, their mistakes in points of fact could have stemmed from being lied to by Fisher and not knowing Korea. But, over time, too many unreasonable statements have come out. The family friend who couldn’t get mail to him even while being in Korea because there were 4 people with his name in prison in Seoul was the last straw.
More people than Andre have been lying from the start.
Even with the 2nd convication, he’ll probably get off with a suspended sentence if he pays the blood money, but given the two crimes were close together, both involved resisting arrest, and the fact he got his family to put all this information on the Internet and in parts of the US media, giving USFK and Korea a bad name, I’d like to see him spend 6 months or a year in jail.
10:45 pm on August 18th, 2011 45
AMcD6,
I agree with you on many points.
Even after all this, I am still not willing to directly state that he robbed the taxi driver.
But the circumstantial evidence sure is leaning in that direction… just as previous circumstantial evidence suggested many of the speculations we now accept as fact.
There are many examples… but a good one is…
Everyone is quick to focus on how the face in the video can’t be seen… and that is a fair defense.
But they are equally quick to avoid answering if the clothes in the video match the clothes he was arrested in.
This is a deal maker/breaker for my public support/condemnation on this incident. With this information being kept intentionally quiet, I lean toward his guilt.
Based on available information and actions, I believe the clothes DO match. I believe, once the optical aberration of the wide-angle lens is accounted for, the builds of the two suspects also match. And, based on their actions, I believe this has been obvious to everyone from his military leadership to the Korean judges.
And I believe that if the video showed anything else, the “outraged” family would rightfully demand its public release… at which point I, too, would be outraged at his unjust arrest.
I have seldom missed an opportunity to call out USFK for incorrect actions… and I would be all over it if there was any indication that USFK was ditching a good GI for their own selfish reasons.
I will further state that I disagree with speculation that he might be covering for someone. Jeffery does NOT fit the profile of a person willing to make some serious life-altering sacrifices so some other idiot can avoid jail for doing something stupid.
I agree that Fisher’s character is not on trial… and I agree that the issue here is robbing the taxi driver and not keying cars or damaging police vehicles and stations. I further agree that this separation of all issues is an important legal concept.
Of course we like to see bad things happen to bad people… and Jeffery has demonstrated an undisputed pattern of badness… “owning up” to a crime in which one is caught red-handed doesn’t really add character points… and doing it AGAIN a few months later makes it hard for all but the most foolish to excuse or rationalize away.
But, he IS on trial for the robbery of a taxi driver and nothing more.
I propose the available evidence suggest he is guilty… from the inconsistencies in the several versions of his story to the video. I believe the public has simply not seen this and his supporters have gone out of their way to keep it that way.
We have heard only one side of the story from his supporters. So far, everything that could be verified has been a lie and the remaining pieces don’t fit together in any meaningful way. Everything Jeffery has said fits the pattern of a guy who lies to cover previous lies.
On the other side, every official release of information fits perfectly with known facts and every accusation by self-proclaimed insiders, who run some risk by discussing it unofficially, has been eventually verified… leaving one with the feeling that USFK believes Jeffery is a complete shytbag who has this (and more) coming to him.
As for the Army providing services for him… well… so to speak, this ain’t their first rodeo.
USFK has years of experience in providing these services for drunk drivers, fighters, thieves, grandma raapers, etc.
I very, very much doubt they singled Jeffery out for abandonment.
In the end, if there was any chance he was innocent, his supporters could simply have collected and released all information possible and, if it even hinted at his innocence, blogs like this would be full of support and demands for USFK to Do Something. Instead, they have been secretive, misleading, and in avoidance of pursuing information and evidence that would clarify everything.
Hmmm… now that I think about it, maybe I WILL state that I believe he IS guilty… and even his family is pretty sure of it.
11:01 pm on August 18th, 2011 46
Jeffrey? Isn’t Jeffry the mystery guy who disappeared the guy in the story is Andre Fisher..
11:10 pm on August 18th, 2011 47
Chickenhead,
At the hearing they said the perpetrator in the video was wearing an orange hoodie, had a slim frame, and seemed to know exactly where the money was located as if he’d been in the cab before….
In his statement at the hearing, Andre said he was wearing an orange and black hoodie, has a larger frame, and hadn’t been in the taxi, so he wouldn’t have known where the money was located. Also, if I understand what was said at the hearing correctly, the taxi driver was in the cab at the time of the robbery and punched in the face by the perpetrator ( don’t quote me on that, but I THINK that’s what I heard…NOT positive…)…
…As far his supporters’ claims, I have gotten more, “I don’t knows” than anything else from the family when trying to get details, so I’m not aware of the lies and inconsistencies you’re referring to…(I’ve only been in touch with his sister and not any other supporters, so I don’t know what claims they’ve been making…everything the sister has said has either been “I dont know I’ll work on getting an answer for you”…or…has panned out to be consistent with what I observed…)… What I’ve seen on my end is that the family says the military was unresponsive to their requests for info and the evidence was flimsy. Based on what I observed at the hearing, the evidence does indeed seem to be flimsy…but, again, the prosecutor was not present so I didn’t hear their argument, nor was the video shown at the hearing…
…As for the military’s role in this, I know his Sgt was present, he had a translator, and a guy was there observing the trial in military attire (I’m not well-versed in military positions)….but the question in my mind is whether they were present for the first trial…
In any event, the outrage was in the apparent railroading (from my perspective….)….and I just wanted to make sure that our guys are never, ever, left at the mercy of another govt…it just didn’t seem right to me. If he’s guitly, lock him up. If he’s innocent, set him free. But for God’s sake, give him a FAIR trial, that’s all.
11:59 pm on August 18th, 2011 48
His character is central to the trial – as it is with all defendents. It’s about credibility. His actions have shot his.
It is much easier to believe the taxi driver given the resisting arrest and 2nd bout of crimes.
Along the lines of what CH said, frequent commentors on this site are not known for being blind supporters of the Korean court system when it comes to foreigners.
It’s generally a pro-GI forum too with many regulars being former or current service members.
Andre’s case hit the rocks here because too many people here are familiar with Korea, USFK, the SOFA, and so on….
From the start, there were elements of his story that did not match up to the experience of others. And it went downhill from there.
Based on known facts to date, he has no credibility.
When you lose that in a court of law, you’re in trouble…
12:22 am on August 19th, 2011 49
Fair Trial – What first started raising red flags here among people familiar with Korea, USFK, the SOFA, and so on were the claims the Fisher’s made to define the case as unfair.
This forum is not known for its die-hard supporters of the Korean court system. Nor for being anti-GI.
What we were told about this case in an effort to define it as a railroad job simply didn’t add up. It didn’t match collective experiene or bare up upon checking.
And what is the barebone facts in the first trial we do know:
A taxi driver as eye-witness and victim vs a drunk GI who resisted arrest. Add to that a video used as evidence. In a petty theft trial.
What would the chances of conviction be elsewhere (US, Canada, Austrailia)?
12:39 am on August 19th, 2011 50
I don’t know how it works in Korea, but in the USA, a defendant doesn’t need any credibility at all, because he doesn’t have to testify.
1:04 am on August 19th, 2011 51
If he does, however…(and he did in this case…)
1:28 am on August 19th, 2011 52
If he testified, and he’s incredible, well, stuff happens.
I hope he quits drinking.
4:51 am on August 19th, 2011 53
@#42- Thanks for commenting. Likewise I am not sure if Fisher robbed the cab, seeing the video and comparing it to any pictures the police took of Fisher that night would be helpful to determining his guilt. At this point I think it is irrelevant for the most part because I would be very surprised if Fisher isn’t released on appeal. The Korean justice system tends to rather not have to house and feed this guy in jail for stealing $88.
His biggest worry should be when he returns to his unit and whether they chapter him.
As far as the Army supporting him, I have seen no indication they didn’t. If you read the court martial results I publish every month USFK handles dozens of cases like this every month. This is nothing new for them. As far as his unit supporting him they had to have someone there to escort him to trial. However, they could have the 2ID commanding general sitting there and it wouldn’t make any difference to the verdict.
5:06 am on August 19th, 2011 54
Fanwarrior,
Sorry. Brainfart. I know a guy named Jeffery Fisher and my writing didn’t have my full attention at the time.
AMcDC, two different guys in two orange hoodies are possible… but certainly the video and an arrest picture, or his hoodie as evidence, can clear things up quite a bit. Wide angle lenses do strang things to body shapes… especially like this case when the head is much closer to the camera… as evidenced by all the slinky big-eyed girls on webcams that are fat and wide-jawed like a lumberjack in real life.
Pretty much every taxi driver keeps their money in the same few places.
I’m have to go but I will address other points later tonight or tomorrow.
6:02 am on August 19th, 2011 55
So no one has seen this video still. The only thing we know is some guy in orange was seen. Supporters dismiss this because Andre was wearing orange and black. That’s not gonna cut it for me. I mean if the guy was wearing a Syracuse University hoodie (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RLQHFY?ie=UTF8&tag=folthenewyory-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000RLQHFY) can you dismiss it because the taxi driver failed to mention the logo on the front?
6:03 am on August 19th, 2011 56
“Wide angle lenses do strang things to body shapes… especially like this case when the head is much closer to the camera… as evidenced by all the slinky big-eyed girls on webcams that are fat and wide-jawed like a lumberjack in real life. ”
Yes, excellent point. I’m sure it was taken into consideration during the investigation.
“Pretty much every taxi driver keeps their money in the same few places.”
Yes, I had noticed that. It’s probably the worst place to keep it, too.
6:19 am on August 19th, 2011 57
I want to thank AMcD6 for coming on here to discuss this with us as a supporter of Andre. Jill, the sister came on here as well but left because she couldn’t handle the tough questions we had for her. Instead of defending her position, she failed to provide details, got defensive and ran off. Furthermore, she has refused to change her position that Andre is receiving an unfair trial, throwing allegations on the Korean government and also the US Military. I believe she’s done a disservice to herself. She has supporters from other sites and blogs but they are more often than not misinformed about the legalities surrounding the trial. The meat of the activities on those blogs are still centered around the fairness of the trial and whether or not SOFA was adhered to or not. From the start, this site went out and verified from actual sources (much of which can also be obtained from the general public) that indeed the trial was proceeding FAIRLY (by both the Korean gov’t and the US Military). For such information that is not public to the rest of us, those details were procured through military networks that can be used (AKO). Jill could have used this site to gain the information she was having difficulty obtaining if she had tried. This is the one ally she could not afford to push away, and she did. Somewhere down the road, the truth became more of an enemy in this fight. That’s too bad. She’s steered quite a few people away from her cause as a result.
6:30 am on August 19th, 2011 58
“Fair Trial – What first started raising red flags here among people familiar with Korea, USFK, the SOFA, and so on were the claims the Fisher’s made to define the case as unfair.” – USInKorea
USInKorea, there’s an element of truth in the item that raised the red flag for you. The truth is, people here are defending the USFK. If the accused guy had not made the mistake and started accusing the USFK, and instead solely focused on the racist Koreans, I bet some of the opinions here in this site would be completely different. I bet this guy would have been treated as martyr and a victim of racist Korean judicial system which is out to get innocent Americans and lock them up in prisons with horrid torture chambers. The truth is, nobody here is interested in the truth. Everybody is just defending the USFK.
10:03 am on August 19th, 2011 59
Let’s face hard facts… you go to trial (whether you are the defendant or plaintiff) and your character/morals are subject to scrutiny; just ask victim in rape cases who have had their entire sexual pasts brought up and examined. He admitted to kicking out the window of the police car. Saying, “ooops, Sorry, my bad.” certainly doesn’t cut it in the US nor should it cut it here. That’s going to get you (another) charge, even if it stems from a different incident, like in this case. I’m sorry if his sister and parents can’t face the truth, but the man obviously can’t handle his alcohol and has shown he has no concept of the term “good judgment” either while under the influence or sober; the latter due to his various lies and false names about who he was with at the time. His girlfriend is quickly getting herself in the same boat for lying in some attempt to help him.
After reading the WEP news article, it’s easy to see that his family is in denial and won’t try to check outside sources; they believe their precious snowflake and everyone else is out to smear him either due to racism or their overall hate for the military. Too bad we can’t find out if he has a juvie record; I’m about to the point I’d bet money he does.
His family should get down on their knees and thank whatever deity they believe in that he is in the Korean foreigners prison and not some UF(P)IA institution elsewhere. He’s allowed his own cell, a tv, and darn near daily visitation (including people who haven’t been pre-background checked and aren’t on a specific list); something that none of the prisons I’ve worked for/at have ever allowed. Add in the court house hoochies who show up to support him because they think he’s “hot” and we’ve got a reality show in the making that makes me want to barf.
Personally, since by his own admittance, he has “way too much time to think”, I hope he reflects on what got him in this situation and that he realizes alcohol not only over-rides any minuscule amount common sense and moral compass he has, but also has started him down a path that will most likely result in him being kicked out of the military and make it hard for him to try making a fresh start in the future.
11:58 am on August 19th, 2011 60
I’m curious. Is there any way to find out why he was demoted from PFC to PVT? Also, I wonder when it happened and why the parents are under the impression that he’s still a PFC.
12:36 pm on August 19th, 2011 61
Tom, like CH said, he isn’t known as a big defender of all things USFK, and most of the regular commenters here have shown an ability to think beyond their prejudices (unlike you).
If this had been an ESLer instead of USFK member, people would have noted that he stood near zero chance of being acquitted in a Korean court.
Once the details about resisting arrest had come out, he’d have lost the benefit of the doubt by most people here. Wouldn’t matter if he were a GI or not.
Once details about a second arrest a few months later came out, he’d have been crucified.
If his family began bad-mouthing the embassy for not providing him a lawyer and protecting his rights as an American, they’d have been ridiculed.
In fact, I seem to remember some cases over the years involving ESLers where a fair number of people here assumed guilt right away talking about looking like thugs or acting like youthful idiots away from home. Most others simply hold off judgment when they don’t have facts.
12:49 pm on August 19th, 2011 62
Tom wrote:
I don’t agree with everything Tom wrote (e.g., that nobody is interested in the truth), but I do think he makes a very valid point with this statement above.
As I mentioned in #14, I believe that some of those who championed his cause are doing so not because of actually caring about Mr Fisher’s case but because Mr Fisher is a proxy for their own Korea demons. Many of these people enjoyed racial transparency back in their home countries, and the jolt of being treated as a minority is so harsh that they either lash out or collapse into perpetual victimhood. Then when someone comes along with a good story, like Andre Fisher being railroaded because of racism and being an adoptee, they don’t wish to question it. (Ditto with Metropolitician’s “arrest,” which had few or no people questioning the facts or lack of follow-up, though people did question the news about the arrest of the Pokker-8.)
1:44 pm on August 19th, 2011 63
Tom wasn’t critical of this site blindly defending Fisher.
Tom’s point was that the people at this site (including commentors) were blindly defending USFK and that if the guy had not been a GI, they would have gleefully played the bigot by blindgly defending him. It does not match the reality of this site. As CH pointed out, he and other regulars are not shy about attacking USFK or individual GI’s who get in trouble here. ESLers also get knocked around here.
This site started out questioning the Fisher family’s assertions, and the people here showed plenty of concern in shifting through what details (real or guessed or fabricated) that came up.
On Metropolitician’s case, from what I remember, where did racism or provincialism come into play?
How many cases have you seen over the years where ESLers or GIs arrested by Korean police have been acquitted? How many cases have you seen where foreigners involved in a street or similar incident have seen the Korean involved arrested?
The St. Patric’s Day murder (of another foreigner) is the only case I can remember well where a foreigner was found not guilty. I can vaguly remember one of the monthly reports GI Korea gives showing a GI who was acquitted.
The reason people familiar with Korea can more readily accept Metropolitician’s articulate description of what happened to him stems from —- experience – not racism or provincialism.
In fact, experience is the key here.
What Metropolitician wrote fit with general experience of those familiar with Korea.
What Fisher and family claimed did not. That is what got them in trouble at this site.
If you have any reason to believe Metropolitician was not telling the truth and deserved to be arrested, I’d like to here it.
3:50 pm on August 19th, 2011 64
Seriously — debating Tom’s attempt at troll baiting are about as low as it gets around here.
4:12 pm on August 19th, 2011 65
He did take the time to type it out. It wasn’t strictly “troll baiting”.
4:37 pm on August 19th, 2011 66
USinKorea, have you seen any follow-up details on Metropolitician’s arrest? His bluster aside, he was accused by a bruised man (who was drunk) of having been assaulted by him, and the police took the man’s statement and fingerprinted him, as they do anyone who has been accused of legal wrongdoing. I have been fingerprinted twice outside of Immo issues, once for driving without a license, and another time for not paying an excessive fine I was not aware of that had flagged me at Kimpo Immigration. In both cases, this also included not being allowed to physically leave until certain things were settled at the police station or prosecutors. This kind of thing was the extent of Metropolitician’s “arrest.” Now we can assume that the accusation by the drunk guy was utter boulevard, but what happened to it? Whenever I’ve asked him, he hasn’t answered, even though he was free flowing with the details of his “arrest.” And make no mistake, that was about Koreans-versus-foreigners:
Then, when the card-playing octet got arrested, we heard about how it was about the same thing:
The general experience of those familiar with Korea has, lately, been seriously colored by a lot of brown stuff spewing from K-blogs who have no clue what happens with Koreans in similar situations and who think everything bad that happens to them happens to them because they’re a foreigner.
The Three Wizened Monkeys posts that started the Andre Fisher story were pregnant with such viewpoints.
5:11 pm on August 19th, 2011 67
Metropolitician brings to Andre Fisher’s case the view that this has racism at its core, and he himself ties it in with his own “arrest.”
7:14 pm on August 19th, 2011 68
I don’t read the other blogs and didn’t read the 3WMs on this case. I haven’t read anything about other case you mentioned.
Here is what I remember about Metopolitician’s story:
He was doing a shoot on the street with a Korean when accosted by a drunk Korean male. People who have lived in Korea for years, raise your hand if that sounds credible based on experience?
After getting away from the man, M. and his Korean female friend went into a nearby cafe/restaurant, and he called the police. After arriving, the police then proceeded to arrest him. People familiar with Korea, raise your hand if that sounds credible?
Why does it sound credible? Because we’re all racists? Too provincial in our thinking?
Or, does it sound credible because we’ve lived in and around Korea for years?
Tom’s claim was that people were knocking Fisher and family around out of some knee-jerk habit of defending USFK by people here. Kushibo’s claim is that people here tend to bash Korea in these cases out of some knee-jerk bigotry or provincialism.
The reason I’ve read this site and comments for years is the number of people with years of experience with Korea sharing their thoughts on news and issues.
As others have pointed out above, I think the community proved itself again with this Fisher case. People didn’t jump to conclusions and sifted through things leading to a better understanding of the event(s). Being the Internet, you never get enough straightforward information like you’d like. Opinions are generally based on limited info and supposition. But what we’ve seen in this Fisher case is far from knee-jerk reactions stemming from prejudice.
7:54 pm on August 19th, 2011 69
USinKorea, have you ever been arrested in Korea? Has anyone close to you? Have any of the people around you been arrested for doing absolutely nothing?
Maybe, maybe not, but even if not, I know you’ve read about it in the K-blogs. Instead of asking if it sounds credible, perhaps you should ask why it sounds credible. From Metropolitician being “arrested” (when was his trial? did he do jail time? what was the verdict? what was the follow-up?) to his knee-jerk defense of the card-playing octet and prima facie cries of xenophobia, to the Three Wise Monkeys’ and their supporters’ initial treatment of Andre Fisher, why do these things sound credible but turn out not to be?
I’ve had enough actual experience in the judicial system or with those in the judicial system to know that, yes, the courts in Seoul that deal with foreigners are willing to reduce sentences for foreigners just like courts typically do for Koreans, that there are cops will listen to and believe foreigners over Koreans at the scene of the crime or afterward if the language barrier can be crossed and the facts support it, and no, the police are NOT “primed to turn anything involving foreigners into a ‘big story.’”
8:23 pm on August 19th, 2011 70
Why don’t you have this discussion at 3WM or M.’s blog?
You’re obviously engaged in a debate involving them.
Why you chose to do it by jumping on Tom’s bandwagon, and getting his point wrong, by the way, is a mystery. You’re not dealing much at all with what has been said here at this site.
-Sigh-
8:27 pm on August 19th, 2011 71
“that there are cops will listen to and believe foreigners over Koreans at the scene of the crime or afterward if the language barrier can be crossed and the facts support it”
Details of these examples?
8:51 pm on August 19th, 2011 72
Well, the clearest example off the top of my head is something I’ve written about (but can’t find now) about helping a British couple in a minor car accident. The Korean couple (who it turned out was at fault) was taking advantage of the language barrier and trying to make their side of the story the only one the police officer heard.
I passed the scene, then drove down to the next intersection where I decided to make a U-turn and come back up and ask the police officer if he needed any help translating. He did, and I played interpreter and told the British couple’s side of the story, and then went on my way. I eventually followed up and the couple said it all turned out well (the police realized that it was the fast-talking Korean driver that was at fault).
I have, in fact, made it a bit of a habit to stop and help people who look like they need help translating, include a number of times with police. I don’t blog every single thing that I do, but I did mention this one somewhere.
The biggest problem is language barrier, followed by ignorance of how laws play out or blatant disregard for Korean laws (e.g., private English teaching or poker playing), but too many in the K-blogs jump to the conclusion that this is all xenophobia.
This is not to say that every encounter with the police isn’t a crappy one, but Korean nationals also get shoddy police treatment. The difference is that when it happens to Koreans, they don’t go on blogs and say, “This bad thing happened to me in Korea because I’m Korean!”
9:01 pm on August 19th, 2011 73
USinKorea wrote:
Wow, I guess you really didn’t read the original stuff at TWM. I have in fact gotten involved in this discussion, and some of the stuff I’ve quoted myself on here came from that site.
It’s all black or white with you, isn’t it? I wrote that Tom “makes a very valid point” that “some of the opinions here in this site would be completely different” were accusations not made that impugned USFK, and I am “jumping on Tom’s bandwagon.” Maybe it’s a mystery to you because it didn’t happen.
You wrote that it sounds credible that a foreigner who was a victim and had done no wrong called the police would get arrested, as described by Metropolitician. It’s a valid question to ask, since you think Metropolitician’s story that he was “arrested” (with all that entails) is so naturally credible, if it has happened to you or someone close to you. Has it?
When you ask “people familiar with Korea” if this sounds credible, you should change that to “people familiar with K-blogs,” and then you would have your answer.
9:41 pm on August 19th, 2011 74
When they arrested the Korean guy who was calling names at some Indian guy on a bus.. what happened there? According to the angry racially downtrodden expats here, the Korean police would have arrested the Indian guy because according to expats here, the Korean police will always side with Koreans over the foreigners. But it turns out the Korean guy got arrested for calling someone names. It was all over the papers all over the world. That’s another one example, USInKorea.
10:02 pm on August 19th, 2011 75
“After getting away from the man, M. and his Korean female friend went into a nearby cafe/restaurant, and he called the police. After arriving, the police then proceeded to arrest him. People familiar with Korea, raise your hand if that sounds credible?” – USInKorea
No USInKorea, Korean police don’t arrest people because they’re foreigners. It is no wonder I accuse you and others of whipping up the masses. You and others accuse Koreans of whipping up anti-Americanism, you are no better really.
Just by reading the case of Metro guy, he wasn’t arrested. He and the drunk man were brought into the police station for questioning. It is routine to bring in both parties involved to try to sort out the cross complaints. He was interviewed and let go. He was neither charged or arrested (detained). But he makes it out to be as if he was arrested and prosecuted for being a foreigner. Typical expat exaggerations – they make mountains out of a mole hill. In my books, it’s called bending the truth.
11:56 pm on August 19th, 2011 76
Last comment on this for me.
So, your efforts here are a spillover. How about leaving it over there were it might fit better? Instead of coming over here to join up with Tom making arguments that don’t fit what’s been said over here.
Overhere, people have been dealing with this based on familiarity with Korea – as I’ve stated several times and won’t repeat again.
If you believe your experience trumps that of others, fine. I’ll stick by what I’ve seen and others here.
For Tom, people are not routinely taken to a police station and processed as part of an investigation for a typical street altercation such as the one M. described. The start of his post also says he was charged. But, for some reason, you and Kushibo have brought this case up as if M. is a liar, like Fisher appears to be, based on nothing I can see. In fact, I’ve ended up feeling like an idiot for even getting into this discussion…
I have no idea what has been said at 3WM about the Fisher case. I have been following it here, and I’ll stand by what I’ve said about it above.
2:03 am on August 20th, 2011 77
One of the problems with the the USFK system is it punishes its military members before investigations are completed. When US military members are arrested by the KNP and then sent back to their unit they are immediately directed to the medical treatment facility and often forced to attend some form of weekly – often daily – counseling sessions. All of those mandated sessions can be based on an initial report that has been falsified by the KNPs and reviewed by Korean nationals working for the USFK. It can be quite frustrating for the military member if they’re actually innocent.
2:08 am on August 20th, 2011 78
USinKorea 76, don’t worry. You’re not an idiot.
6:27 am on August 20th, 2011 79
“For Tom, people are not routinely taken to a police station and processed as part of an investigation for a typical street altercation such as the one M. described.” – USInKorea
No, USInKorea. I never said that. Actually I said the exact opposite. Police routinely take people in who are involved in street altercations. That’s got nothing to do with foreigners, that’s the way it’s done for all people, foreigners and Koreans alike.
“The start of his post also says he was charged. But, for some reason, you and Kushibo have brought this case up as if M. is a liar,” – USInKorea
No, USInKorea. I actually don’t think that Metro guy is lying. I don’t know him nor have I read his blog, but based on the expats in Korea that I know, he’s so steeped in victimhood that everything in Korea, even something innocent is seen as Koreans out to get him because of his race.
” like Fisher appears to be, based on nothing I can see.” – USInKorea
Fisher is a liar, GIKorea proved it by proving this guy’s past history of being a trouble maker. You standing by him only makes your credibility go out the window.
“In fact, I’ve ended up feeling like an idiot for even getting into this discussion…” – USInKorea
I won’t say anything about this since you’ll just ban me.
8:47 am on August 20th, 2011 80
79 – Do you even read the other comments before you reply? You get just about every point bassakward…Maybe you were drinking and typing…What makes it worse is that you took the time to quote lines and still got them exactly wrong!
10:20 am on August 20th, 2011 81
USinKorea wrote:
How about you leaving it up to GI Korea who and who is welcome to post comments here?
I posted my own thoughts and responded to the comments of others on a post created on this blog about this topic. I’ve stayed close to the topic and haven’t been trolling anyone. That you don’t agree with some of what I write doesn’t give you the right to shoo me away.
You keep talking about familiarity with Korea, which is why I ask you if, other than Metropolitician, you know of a completely innocent person who called the police and was “arrested” after that? Because for that to be believable based on your “familiarity” with Korea, that would have to be a somewhat common occurrence.
Where have you “seen” innocent people who called the police getting “arrested”?
As for my experience trumping that of others, when Metropolitician writes that “the police are primed to turn anything involving foreigners into a ‘big story,’” but I have been directly involved in cases such as helping half a dozen drug arrestees (actually arrested, not imagined arrested) that went unremarked in the press, I’d say my experience trumps Metropolitician’s assertion.
Metropolitician is a serial exaggerator, sometimes with a chip on his shoulder the size of Rhode Island, and he sees things in a way different from how they happened, sometimes even before they happened.
And based on Metropolitician’s story of his “arrest” in 2007, tens of thousands of K-blog readers have the “familiarity” with the idea that a wholly innocent person (which Metrpolitician was) can be “arrested” for calling the police (which, based on what he has revealed, he actually wasn’t).
Well, maybe you should go and read it, since it is part and parcel of what has been written here. That GI Korea even posted on it is because of TWM posting their story and then pushing it here.
5:14 pm on August 23rd, 2011 82
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=189184164477827
5:24 pm on August 23rd, 2011 83
Wow..there is a staggering amount of ignorance in that video..
and good to see they’re still trying to invent things. Apparently now he was “beat up” when they arrested him?
5:52 pm on August 23rd, 2011 84
I sure hope this turd isn’t an Engineer. If not, why the Castle on their shirts?
5:58 pm on August 23rd, 2011 85
That clip mentions that Fisher was supposed to have had an appeal hearing on 9 August. Anyone know if in fact that was the right date and what the results were? Also, I again wonder if the PA news station has bothered to actually do ANY actual investigation and get the facts right? Naah – I would guess not – the pot-stirring they’re already doing gets them better ratings…
5:59 pm on August 23rd, 2011 86
This has entered the realm of farce.
…and may be treated accordingly.
Everything I needed to understand this case, I learned by 3rd grade.
When I was innocent of an accusation, I WANTED to talk about the facts… even if it was a minor event that everyone else has moved past. And I would continue to pester all involved until they broke down and agreed that I was not in the wrong and they were all sorry for thinking otherwise.
If I was guilty as charged, I discussed every technicality, proposed every improbable theory, discounted evidence by emotional appeal, did everything possible to get the subject dropped, etc.
It is blindingly clear what the Andre Fisher supporters are doing.
I gave good and sincere advice on how to collect video evidence which could prove his innocence… and they ignored it. Others here with experience in the USFK and Korean legal systems have offered advice… and it, too, has been ignored. Yet others have demonstrated they can be a direct link to USFK leadership in the event that Andre Fisher’s family is not getting good communication… and they, too, have been ignored…
…and, instead, there has been a lot of emotional misdirection and continued focus on technicalities, incorrect interpretations, and non-issues.
I outgrew falling for that long before the end of elementary school.
(I also learned the old trick… “Little Billy says you kicked him twice. Why did you kick him twice?” “I DID NOT! I didn’t kick him twice. I only hit him once.” (moment of reflective silence) “Can I change my story to ‘I don’t know what y’all are talking about’?”)
Anyway, let’s see what happens when the results of the appeal are announced.
I leave you with this… a falling crime rate:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/21/america-serious-crime-rate-plunging
Nobody likes to talk about it… but longer sentences keep career criminals and serial shytbags out of society.
Andre Fisher fought the police. Andre Fisher damaged police property TWICE. Andre Fisher keyed a car. Andre Fisher was demoted in rank for reasons unknown. Andre Fisher has lied and lied and lied.
That is what I know to be true about Andre Fisher… and his supporters have done nothing but provide empty emotional appeals.
Burn him.
The car it saves might be yours.
6:03 pm on August 23rd, 2011 87
Does anyone know what he did to get demoted to private? Is there any way to find this out?
6:10 pm on August 23rd, 2011 88
Unless his unit posts article 15s on the bulletin board in the company area or someone else in the unit who was there at the time wants to blab about it, there is really no way to find out. –BUT– I’ll guarantee somebody knows…its just about if they’re willing to spill the beans or not…
6:20 pm on August 23rd, 2011 89
Oh god, this is hilarious, but not surprising and totally expected.
Just imagine, this guy’s guilt was only found out about, only because he had the US army records as testimony to his real character.
If he was just a civilian, with no real way to find out about his past and character, everybody here would be joining with friends and family to free Andre Fisher campaign against racist corrupt Korean police and media.
6:35 pm on August 23rd, 2011 90
The news in that video says the US senators are getting involved to free Andre. I can see this now, they’re going to play the emotions: an innocent American soldier who was defending an ungrateful nation, is being held by racist police after he was railroaded then beaten and tortured in prison (FOX News)…..
I can see all the comments made by Americans who’ve watched this news.
Lucky Fisher, he’s got the American government and his people on his side. Few quick phone calls, yelling and screaming to Korean embassy and Korean government, will only mean one thing: The Korean judge will suspend the sentence and he’ll be out in 48 hours, and shipped home. No more steak dinners and 5 star accommodation in a Korean prison.
Moral of the story for Korean police: don’t charge Americans with any crime (even if they break the law), it’s not worth the hassle of being accused of racism and the subsequent American media fall out. The Korean judges under the South Korean president’s orders, will be pressured to free them anyway, so why bother.
7:27 pm on August 23rd, 2011 91
He’ll likely get out with a suspended sentence when the judge makes its ruling, but it won’t be due to any effort by the family or any politician in the US government. He’ll get out because it fits the normal routine in Korean court cases, especially if he’s finally paid the blood money, but of course, most adults have to actually have chosen to live in Korea a few years to learn about these things.
7:30 pm on August 23rd, 2011 92
The sad thing is, it will play out almost that way. Many of us believe he will be let out with time served and the supporters will feel they had a hand in his release. Oh well, we’ll see what they’ll say next when Andre comes up to bat vs. the US Army in round 2.
7:44 pm on August 23rd, 2011 93
“He’ll get out because it fits the normal routine in Korean court cases”
bzzzzz.. wrong. He would have gotten out with suspended sentencing if he admitted his guilt, showed contrition, said sorry and say he’ll never do it again. As I understand it, he didn’t do any of those, plus he’s a repeat offender. He did all the opposite and insists innocence.
Under normal conditions, the judge would have handed his a$$ over to the five store hotel.. oops I mean prison for Western foreign criminals.
But since the US media and the US government officials are getting involved, you can bet he’ll be released soon. Seen this way too often before.
And you guys wonder why Koreans think the Korean victims get the end of the shaft when the USFK personnels are involved in a crime against the locals.
This the show case example exhibition A.
You can bet the South Korean commie agitators that get on you guy’s case all the time (the same guys that you guys hate), will not miss this one, once your senators and FOX news get involved – spreading the news. I hope your command has a good back up story to push.
7:45 pm on August 23rd, 2011 94
Tom, I think everyone here has made it clear. In this case we support the Korean justice system, such as it is, warts and all.
7:59 pm on August 23rd, 2011 95
Tom…
Don’t say any more until the results of the appeal are announced.
Then, if you still think it is correct, you can talk about how he was released too early.
8:01 pm on August 23rd, 2011 96
“Tom, I think everyone here has made it clear. In this case we support the Korean justice system, such as it is, warts and all.”
LaPorte, only because GI Korea dug up the guy’s record with the US army. What if he was a regular American civilian, and there was no way to dig up his criminal record either in America or Korea? Would have supported the Korean justice system, or would you have immediately taken side with the accused, and accuse Koreans of being racists? I’d say the latter, simply by the fact that, that’s what happened when this story hit the Korea related blogs. It was the same old jerk reactions of accusing Koreans as savage hateful racists. It’s pretty interesting since in at least one of those blogs, the owner decided to erase the post of this incidence and the initial reactions of expats, in its entirety. Just absolutely hillarious. It almost sometimes sounds like Korea is the South United States circa 1957 with white people being abused and lynched.
8:04 pm on August 23rd, 2011 97
Maybe if Tom had ever voluntarily lived in Korea, and spent more than 2 years in Korea as an adult, he’d have more experience with cases in the Korean legal system, and he would know that he’s wrong.
I believe somewhere up in the comments, I linked to a case where another USFK member was released on appeal after paying the blood money (after having refused before the initial verdict) but still refused to admit guilt.
That fits what I’ve seen after having spent 2 or 3 times the number of years in Korea as an adult than some and after having researched GI crimes and after having read GI Korea’s monthly reports involving USFK member crimes.
If I’d spent the majority of my life, and virtually all of my adult life, outside Korea, I might not have learned this.
8:09 pm on August 23rd, 2011 98
“Seen this way too often before.”
When? What examples have you seen where US media and government officials have gotten involved with a GI crime in Korea? And where it resulted in immediate release of the criminal?
8:10 pm on August 23rd, 2011 99
Paying the habi-geum is same as admitting guilt, USInKorea. I may not have lived all of my life in Korea, and has never broken any law to see how things really work in Korean system, but common sense tells me, you don’t pay compensation money (not blood money – stop with your typical arrogant insulting expat terminology) if you’re admitting guilt. That doesn’t even make any sense.
8:12 pm on August 23rd, 2011 100
correction: “you don’t pay compensation if you insist you’re not guilty”.
8:19 pm on August 23rd, 2011 101
Well, Tom, if you had ever volunteered to live in Korea for some years, you might have learned that – though it might not make sense to someone educated in Canada – in the Korean system, paying what has been typically labeled blood money (I don’t like the term either, but most people don’t know the Korean term) is NOT a legally binding admission of guilt.
That is one of the mistakes foreigners generally make in cases like this: To them, having been raised most of their lives in a foreign country like yourself, paying any money to the supposed victim is admitting guilt and should hurt their court case, but that isn’t how it works in Korea.
8:26 pm on August 23rd, 2011 102
correction: “you don’t pay compensation if you insist you’re not guilty”.
Until you have been falsely accused and a “victim” blackmails you with the backing of the Korean judicial system, straight up government sanctioned robbery. The only way to make it go away and get on with your life is to pay. That’s what I suggested earlier. Guilty or not, pay the guy and get it over with. It’s not worth sitting in jail for a couple thousand dollars.
8:26 pm on August 23rd, 2011 103
Tom, why don’t you use your Korean language skills (if they are still good enough after all these years abroad) to do some research and find crimes like this where Koreans have done similar crimes and been put in jail for a couple of years.
If you’d volunteered to live in Korea for some time, you’d have seen rape cases that got suspended sentences or 2 years or so.
I’ve seen outside my window drunk Koreans slap cops and shove them around without an arrest being made. It was one of the few culture-shock things I remember about the first time I chose to live in Korea.
8:30 pm on August 23rd, 2011 104
USinKorea wrote:
I don’t like the term either, and I’d meant to write this a few weeks ago when it came up.
The term is habigŭm (or habŭigŭm, where the ŭ in 의 is dropped because it follows a consonant), and it literally means “mutual agreement money.” Thus settlement money is far closer to the meaning and intent than “blood money,” especially given how widely this is used in Korean justice and law enforcement (or the lack thereof).
There are several phrasal terms for “blood money,” but they appear to be used specifically when someone has died, or perhaps been severely injured. None, I believe, would be applied in this case or most cases (but yes for the two junior high school girls in the 2002 tank accident-waiting-to-happen case).
8:33 pm on August 23rd, 2011 105
Here is something from someone with expertise in the area.
Personally, I think if a GI is convicted of a violent rape in Korea, he should get a much tougher sentence than they typically get in Korea, and the same goes for Korean-on-Korean rape.
I think GI’s accused of raping citizens should be tried in Korean courts, but the irony is that they would get much worse sentences if tried under the US military court system.
8:35 pm on August 23rd, 2011 106
I’ve used compensation money or small money but I was never confident with how many readers would know what I was talking about.
8:38 pm on August 23rd, 2011 107
Not true. I’ve seen cases in Korea where someone who was not guilty (or at least convinced of not being guilty) paid a small amount of 합의금 in order to end an hours-long headache in a police station in a way that provided no legal admission of guilt that would lead to a criminal record.
In some cases, it works on the same principle of settling a nuisance lawsuit.
8:38 pm on August 23rd, 2011 108
“If you’d volunteered to live in Korea for some time, you’d have seen rape cases that got suspended sentences or 2 years or so.”
Don’t give me that arrogant BS talking down on me, USinKorea. I read the papers everyday to know that rape cases get suspended sentences and less, and everyone of those cases involved the accused admitting”they made a mistake”, “was drunk and didn’t know what they were doing since they can’t remember”, “very sorry, won’t do it again”, bla bla bla.
Your GI on the other hand, is none of that. He’s being willfully stubborn, insists he’s innocent when all the facts point to guilt, bad repeat offenses, assualted the police, and insists he’s being railroaded because of his race. All evidences point to judge should be p*ssed off with this guy’s arrogant attitude. In normal circumstances, he’d be sentenced to jail time to serve out fully.
8:40 pm on August 23rd, 2011 109
In a great many cases, yes, if they are found guilty in the US military court system.
And I had hell to pay for making a statement like that in a public forum back in 2002, in relation to the the two on trial for the tank accident-waiting-to-happen.
8:43 pm on August 23rd, 2011 110
Tom wrote:
If any of what Tom asserts is valid (and some of it rings true), I think the overriding problem here is that a GI arrested for an off-post crime is essentially subject to two judicial systems: the Korean system and then, often after they’re done with him, the USMJ.
Or am I completely wrong about that?
One system encourages you to admit guilt to reduce/avoid punishment and the other encourages you to do the diametric opposite in order to reduce/avoid punishment.
8:47 pm on August 23rd, 2011 111
“In normal circumstances, he’d be sentenced to jail time to serve out fully.”
I’d like to see some of those normal circumstances.
It’s hard without having Korean language skills to check on Korean-on-Korean crime, but – as I’ve said numerous times over the years, what examples I could find generally corresponded to sentences given to GIs.
What were the official charges in this case, I forget?
Unofficially, he is accused on petty theft, simple assault, resisting arrest, and damage to property. In the 2nd case, damage to property.
Most people, especially those who’ve spent most of their lives in a Western country, would consider rape a much more serious crime.
So, getting a suspended sentence in the Fisher case would not be a surprise in Korea – whether the media or US government got involved or not.
If you can find some examples of Korean-on-Korean crime of similar magnitude that resulted in years of jail time (after the appeals, mind you), I’m willing to modify my opinion…
8:55 pm on August 23rd, 2011 112
“the Korean system and then, often after they’re done with him, the USMJ. ”
That is something I’d like to hear about too from someone with expertise in the area.
I vaguely seem to remember that the GIs handed over to the Korean judicial system do not face a criminal trial in the military system afterward. They might face disciplinary action – like being reduced in rank and kicked out of the military – but they don’t face a trial that could lead to jail time.
Even so, I wonder what happens in cases like this in terms of disciplinary action.
In this case, even has come out to make it seem quite clear a discharge is the right thing to do whatever happens in the Korean court, but what about in a typical “he said-he said” case where guilt isn’t so clear? Does a verdict of guilty in a Korean court and suspended sentence automatically lead to a discharge?
8:58 pm on August 23rd, 2011 113
“If you can find some examples of Korean-on-Korean crime of similar magnitude that resulted in years of jail time (after the appeals, mind you), I’m willing to modify my opinion…”
From top of my head, I can’t recall reading about any case like that. Accused Koreans always admitted their guilt and threw themselves at the mercy of the judge. Guilty Koreans always admit they are guilty. For whatever reason, it’s the Western guys who are the ones who more than the Koreans, refuse to admit guilt, it’s always the other guy. I think this boils down to cultural differences. Western people have difficulty accepting personal responsibility when they commit a crime – in their minds, they’re too good of a person to be guilty. That’s what I think why there’s a difference.
8:59 pm on August 23rd, 2011 114
“Guilty Koreans always admit they are guilty”
Of course, there are always exceptions, and I’m sure there are cases I don’t know about.
9:08 pm on August 23rd, 2011 115
“Until you have been falsely accused and a “victim” blackmails you with the backing of the Korean judicial system, straight up government sanctioned robbery. ” – Laporte
How do you know they were falsely accused and they were being blackmailed? Because that’s what the accused foreigner is claiming? You would take their word for it. But how do you know they’re not another Andre Fisher without being able to check their background and history?
9:09 pm on August 23rd, 2011 116
USinKorea wrote:
Disciplinary action, not a criminal trial, is what I’m thinking of.
A criminal trial in a military court following a criminal trial in a Korean court would seem to violate double jeopardy protections, methinks. I have no idea if that is okay in the US military, though, where some rights are willfully reduced (e.g., freedom of speech). Right?
9:13 pm on August 23rd, 2011 117
So, Koreans almost always tell the truth in court…
Actually, given the system, it seems obvious that some/many innocent Koreans lie in court in order to avoid the drawn out process of appeals and the possibility of spending time in jail for a crime they didn’t commit. They admit guilt or formulate some type of apology and pay compensation even though they don’t believe they committed a crime.
Of course, if that is the case, which it seems clearly to be, actually guilty Koreans would be prone to do the same.
If foreigners were more familiar with how it works in Korea, they would do the same.
9:21 pm on August 23rd, 2011 118
The Korean system tends to push you in a “he said-he said” situation to favor the accused.
As I just said, it seems logically obvious given the Korean system, there are plenty of innocent Koreans who pay compensation and do some form of apology in order to resolve the issue, because it is likely they will suffer more if they keep pressing their innocence.
9:26 pm on August 23rd, 2011 119
The major problem with all of these cases is the Korean lawyers that the U.S. military hires for soldiers and lateness of the military hiring these attorneys.
The lawyers are paid around USD 8,000 (small fee in Korea) and these lawyers are a small group of some of the least aggressive attorneys in Korea.
In all criminal cases handled at court, you must have a retired judge or you are often better just going it alone. The hired Korean attorney, in most cases, will simply be a passive non-participant. The lawyers, in most cases, are referred to the defendant in a very Korean-type manner by longtime Korean staff.
We have even tried to be listed as an attorney in cases where a soldier was in particular need and we received a great deal of resistance. The fee that we charge for litigation is much greater than that of the standard military fee and we have very experienced and known ex-judge litigators. However, we have never been contacted. I assume you know the reason.
Additionally, the military will only hire an attorney for the soldier after the indictment. After the indictment, a defendant has a very small chance of getting the charges reduced or dropped. The defendant, additionally, probably has already given numerous statements to the police and prosecutor.
Good luck to anyone that is going the U.S. military-hired attorney route.
Sean Hayes
http://www.thekoreanlawblog.com
9:38 pm on August 23rd, 2011 120
@112 – whether or not he is chaptered out/discharged depends on circumstances (of course – cheesy answer, right?). What I mean is, in certain cases when a civilian conviction occurs that results in things like serious injury or death, then it is mandatory for the Soldier to be chaptered out/discharged. For other offenses (such as this one), it will depend on what the Army wants to do with him after he is released from jail. They can’t re-charge him for the same infraction he’s already been convicted of, but they can get rid of him using the favorite catch-all – “pattern of misconduct” – UCMJ Chapter 12. Civilian convictions count against the ‘preponderance of evidence’ that is used to make this judgement. They can eliminate him from the service using either a chapter action of possibly a court martial, depending on what the military prosecutors have on him. Since he’s already ‘had his day in court’, my guess is they’ll go with the chapter action since its quicker and takes less money and time-resources.
Based on my experience with these things, I can’t see any way where he WON’T be chaptered out. From all the evidence we’ve seen here so far, it seems pretty clear he’s shown a pattern of misconduct (alcohol-related incidents, whatever lead to his demotion, etc.) and that’s more than enough to send him packing. If he is chaptered out, the big thing to worry about is the ‘character of discharge’. When anyone is finished with the military, they want to get out with an honorable discharge – let’s all involved know you served as you were supposed to and had no major issues (we could start a whole other rant about people who don’t deserve an honorable discharge when they get out, but that’s for another topic). Anything less than an honorable discharge is known as “OTH” – Other than Honorable. These break down further:
The worst is a dishonorable discharge, which is reserved for the most egregious of crimes (rape, murder, etc.). This is highly unlikely in Fisher’s case.
Next is BCD (Bad Conduct Discharge – otherwise known as the Big Chicken Dinner…hehe). This is a more likely outcome for him, but again it all depends on what the military prosecutors have on him and how badly it stacks up. Either a dishonorable or BCD will follow you around in civilian life like a federal conviction and can definitely hurt you in terms of getting a job, being eligible for government benefits, etc. Depending on which discharge someone leaves with, some or all of their after-discharge military benifits (GI bill, VA home loan, etc.) become null and void. Its too much to get into specifics here, but that info is all over the web if anyone’s curious.
The last OTH-type of discharge is a general discharge, which isn’t as bad as a BCD, but you can still get some questions from potential employers that know what to look for on your DD 214 – “what’s this general discharge thing – did you have some trouble in the military?”. There is less loss of benefits, etc. from a general, but some things are still impacted.
So – to sum all of that rambling up, my bet is that Fisher is looking at a BCD when it’s all said and done and if he manages to skate by with only a general discharge, then he was lucky and/or had good lawyers.
Some might say its unfair that Uncle Sam gets another swipe at you once the civilians are done, but that’s part of the deal you sign-up for when you join up. Its also yet another reason why its not a good idea to go down-range and get stupid – but some people will only learn the hard way…
9:55 pm on August 23rd, 2011 121
The man can’t control his liquor and committed crimes. He was tried, convicted, & sentenced in accordance with Korean law & with the SOFA. In other words he f’ed up royally. End of story.
10:15 pm on August 23rd, 2011 122
I vote for two years in jail and an honorable discharge.
Here is why.
Andre has some problems he needs to deal with. He needs to be out of society, away from alcohol, and given plenty of time to consider the direction of his life.
If he is released without this “time out” he will likely get into trouble again… as he has already demonstrated by keying cars and damaging police property… after already being in trouble for… yes… damaging police property.
But, while I am not “soft on crime”, I am soft on those who get their act together.
Andre Fisher is an azzclown… but he might be able to outgrow that if given the chance.
Anything less than honorable removes that chance.
Keying cars, kicking out cop car windows, and even drunkenly robbing taxi drivers, is not grounds for a life sentence as a second-class citizen.
If he gets his act together in jail, gets some skills, and plans his post-military life, he has a chance to succeed without a BCD hanging over his head.
With a BCD, he has a much higher chance of being mentally, socially, and economically, in situations that will eventually place him in an American jail.
I believe he should be given another chance in life… and two years in prison followed by an honorable discharge is the best way for that to happen.
Any failure after that will be entirely his fault.
10:20 pm on August 23rd, 2011 123
CH – I think he’s got no chance for an honorable discharge since it seems he’s already piled-up the dumb-assed-ness both inside the military and outside, but if he’s lucky he might still pull out a general discharge which isn’t the end of the world like a BCD is…
10:50 pm on August 23rd, 2011 124
I agree with Jinro. He has f’ed up too many times and since your are in the military your conduct both on & off duty represents that fact. By his conduct he had not earned an honorable discharge. A BCD would really f up his life forever so I think a general discharge would be the fair way to go as it can be upgraded to an honorable discharge later. The bottom line is if you can’t handle your liquor then don’t drink.
11:46 pm on August 23rd, 2011 125
Sean Hayes wrote:
You need a retired judge OR your lawyer must be connected to the presiding judge (or another judge in the presiding judge’s chamber) – optimally – the best connection is having been classmates together at the same law school.
You raise a point about Korean police procedures that really irk me – Korean police can coerce information out of someone by threatening them (“You’re not leaving the police station until you talk or provide a urine sample. In the meantime you can’t call anyone.”). If you asked to speak with a lawyer – you’ll very likely be denied.
If you say something that incriminates you – the fact that you were refused an opportunity to speak with counsel means nothing.
My evidence is anecdotal – but that has been my experience on several occasions.
11:47 pm on August 23rd, 2011 126
115. Tom, because it was me. I’ve talked about it on here before so I’m not going to rehash it. Luckily, I had a Korean friend bargain the amount down significantly from what the other party was asking for and the whole thing went away. I know Koreans have victimized other Koreans on this too. While I believe victims of certain crimes should be compensated in some way, as it stands now, a fellow and his buddies can make all sort of accusations and make some easy money; with the full weight of the Korean judicial system on their side.
3:33 am on August 24th, 2011 127
Tom L.,
“By his conduct he had not earned an honorable discharge.”
Agree.
“I think a general discharge would be the fair way to go as it can be upgraded to an honorable discharge later.”
Agree again. I didn’t think of that.
Some chronic screw-ups turn their life around after a life-changing event… and some don’t.
While Andre has substantially more “family support” than a lot of other screw-ups, his family seems so whacked out that it might actually be worse… as they appear to be champion rationalizers, reality deniers, and enablers of general social dysfunction.
Hopefully a couple years in jail gives him a reality check, lets him understand what is important and what is not, gives him motivation to formulate some worthwhile life goals, and gives him time to get started on accomplishing them.
I could happen… we have all seen some real loser get their lives together.
Guitard,
“You’re not leaving the police station until you talk or provide a urine sample. In the meantime you can’t call anyone.”
Every American cop’s wet dream.
Anyone have an idea what the best response would be? Well… other than not doing anything that would cause worry about providing a urine sample.
I would guess the best thing to do is be exceptionally polite and apologetic, regardless of their actions, and just try to outlast them while your friends on the outside get busy helping you out.
Lawyers all say, “NEVER SAY ANYTHING TO COPS.” There must be something to that.
I have had no police interaction on this level… but I have outlasted unhelpful bureaucrats by lurking nearby, smiling constantly, and making friendly eye contact every time they looked up from their work… making it a more attractive alternative to take care of me quickly and send me on my way than be the Focus of Attention. Forty-five minutes of my squirm-inducing passive aggression was the longest anyone lasted… and that was in a situation in which they swore it would take until the next day. “Thank you very much, sir. I understand. But no problem. I will wait just in case it can be completed today.”
Of course, the best thing to do is avoid criminal activity… and maintain good relationships with credible people who will vouch for you in the event you are falsely accused… and connected people who can swing the balance in your favor in cases where the situation is not clear.
One kinda funny thing is that the Korean system makes perfect sense… if you look at it from a non American-centric point of view.
Cops in the States are always looking for trouble with an aggressive Us vs. Them mentality… and they frequently arrest first and get the full details later. They have no qualms about manufacturing reasons to arrest if they are irritated. Many protections rightfully exist for this reason.
It doesn’t help that far too many Americans are TOO STUPID TO LEAVE THE POT/DRUG PARAPHERNALIA AT HOME.
Korean cops are far too busy napping in their cars to go hassle citizen… so, if they actually go and arrest someone and demand a urine sample, the suspect is most assuredly guilty and everybody already knows it.
I’m not saying it is a better system… but it makes sense… and, as long as Korean police don’t abuse this lack of protection for citizen rights, it isn’t the end of the world exactly.
4:09 am on August 24th, 2011 128
A few years back, the Korean cops came into a restaurant in Hannan-dong in which approximately 30 Seoul American High School students were socializing. The police rounded up all of the American kids – anyone else in the restaurant (the Koreans) was not bothered.
This was around 9pm. The police took the kids down to the Seo-dae-mun-gu police station and started interrogating them about a drug sale involving an American that allegedly was supposed to take place in that restaurant.
All 30 of them were directed to provide a urine sample and in spite of repeated requests, none of the kids were allowed to make a phone call until 2am.
No one provided information about a drug sale and no physical evidence was found in the restaurant.
Two of the kids came up positive on the urinalysis and both were prosecuted for possession of marijuana (based on having traces of it in their systems).
4:16 am on August 24th, 2011 129
Got a link to that, Guitard? When was this?
What was the reason the kids would be rounded up in Hannam-dong (in Yongsan-gu Ward) and brought to the police station in Sŏdaemun-gu Ward?
Did the parents or USFK protest in any way? What happened to the underage kids who were prosecuted?
7:55 am on August 24th, 2011 130
@Kushibo:
There is no link – I know about this because I was personally involved in the matter.
The reason they were taken to Sŏdaemun-gu Police Station was because the narcotics suppression team from that station was doing the investigation. Presumably the Sŏdaemun-gu Police coordinated this with the Yongsan-gu Police – but that’s just a guess on my part.
Naturally, the parents were highly pissed off. But as I indicated previously – the police can pretty much do whatever they want as long as the ends justify the means (i.e., they get a bust). The police were supposed to stop the interrogation as soon as a kid asked to speak with a lawyer – but they didn’t. They just continued to threaten and scare them by telling them they couldn’t call anyone and they weren’t going to be released until they peed. The police had no business hauling off the entire group of kids – the vast majority of whom were victims of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. One girl refused to pee in a cup with someone watching her – and the police finally relented. That’s when the other kids (almost all of whom who had already peed in the cup) realized that in spite of all the threats and coercion – the police couldn’t force them to pee in the cup. I’m pretty sure if anyone asked the police, they would have said going to the police station and taking a urinalysis was all voluntary.
The two who were prosecuted were given suspended sentences and fined (I recall that the fines were 4,000,000 won). In the US, those cases would have been thrown out for illegal search and seizure. However, in Korea – in spite of similar rules regarding investigative procedures – the police aren’t actually held to the same standard.
8:21 am on August 24th, 2011 131
I wonder if this can be compared to Osan Town Patrol illegally asking for ID from non-military/non-SOFA/non-Americans on Korean soil and then physically detaining them until they identify themselves.
None-the-less… I agree. This is lazy, shyt police work… and there should have been some consequences for the police involved…
…though I suppose it is better than no-knock warrants with a battering ram and a bunch of pepped up SWAT team guys with MP5s, flashbangs, and a mandate to use-or-lose those Homeland Security grant dollars.
What I’m surprise about is that only 2 out of 30 peed hot. The USFK high school students that used to hang around the bars in Songtan were no stranger to a bit of weed… and everybody knew who the graduated-a-year-or-two-ago-but-was-still-sticking-around dependent was who was the main supply… including Osan OSI… which did nothing.
The crap quality of parenting for some officers and contractors was a bit appalling.
Getting off the topic of crappy police work for a moment, a good lesson here is…
…wait for it…
…leave the drugs in the States… more specifically, in the privacy of your own home in the States.
Guitard, did the cops call it a day or did they have the little junkies rat out their supply in exchange for those suspended sentences?
8:29 am on August 24th, 2011 132
The cops tried and tried and tried to get them to talk about where they got the marijuana. Both of them agreed to say they were at a bar in Hongdae and a guy named ‘whatever’ (can’t remember his name now) asked them if they wanted to smoke a joint – and they followed him outside and smoked a joint with him.
The police questioned them for hours about this guy. But all they could remember was a vague physical description, his first name, the name of the bar, and that they had only ever seen him a few times.
The police desperately wanted to get these guys to lead them to the next guy up the chain – but that never happened.
11:18 am on August 24th, 2011 133
Guitard wrote:
Depending on when this was, I’m surprised I hadn’t heard about it. Unless it was related to the crap that went down in 1997 that involved kids “losing” their passports. (And if it was from that, I now wonder if USFK let the KNP play the heavy so that they could clean house in Yongsan Garrison.)
12:28 pm on August 24th, 2011 134
This happened around 2004 or so. I’m fairly certain it didn’t become well known. Or at least – it was never reported in the media.
3:18 pm on August 24th, 2011 135
Guitard,
With 30 sets of parents involved, presumably some of rank, why was this injustice not made into a big deal Andre Fisher style?
I can understand Stars and Stripes being worthless… but…
Naw.
Something ain’t right. This either didn’t play out quite as represented… or USFK would rather their children have their “rights” violated than risk bringing publicity to their drug habits… or there is another angle.
What is the full story? The part you haven’t said about yet?
5:31 pm on August 24th, 2011 136
I got the impression that a lot of the kids lived at Hannam Village – which means their dads were probably senior enlisted. Several of the dads were contractors. A few of the dads were teachers. A couple of the kids were American – but not affiliated with USFK.
Ultimately only two kids (positive urinalysis) got in trouble – the USFK dependents were released to the MPs and the parents came down to the MP station at Gate 1 and picked them up. Most of the parents were very upset, but I’m guessing they were willing to let it go because in spite of their kid being at a place where a drug bust went down – their kid wasn’t in trouble. So they snatched up their kid and went on their merry way. The fathers of both of those who got in trouble were assigned to 2ID – one was a CSM and the other a warrant officer. They only came home to Seoul on weekends, so they were in a tight spot as it was.
I got involved as a translator; and that’s how I know about this.
11:39 pm on August 24th, 2011 137
I think I know the deal here.
“Korean cops came into a restaurant in Hannan-dong in which approximately 30 Seoul American High School students were socializing.”
I would almost bet money or reputation that a more accurate statement would be, “Korean cops came into a place where 30 American High School students were drinking.”
This would better explain why Korean cops got involved to begin with.
This would also explain why not one of 30 sets of parents fought for the rights and dignity of their little snowflakes with the vocal indignancy one would expect.
And it would explain why USFK didn’t make a public stink about any kind of SOFA violation.
And, watching the attitudes and behaviors of many dependents, it explains how the situation escalated to urine tests… as the more you push cops in any country, the more they push back… and somebody in any large group is guilty of something if you look hard enough
Now I don’t know that this is what went down… but it sure sounds more fitting to me than 30 American high school students chatting and quietly sipping Cokes when Korean cops awoke from their naps and decided to storm the Kimbab Land for drug users.
Any ideas?
12:19 am on August 25th, 2011 138
You’re absolutely right about the drinking. That’s the main reason they were there – because it was a place that would serve them alcohol.
But the cops that came in were part of a narcotics suppression team – specifically there to make a drug bust. They didn’t give two shits about underage drinking.
Apparently the cops had a tip that one of the Americans in that restaurant was carrying a large stash of dope (by Korean standards) – something like a half kilogram of marijuana. One of the kids who got busted in the urinalysis thought the main reason they were held for so long and treated so harshly was because the cops were convinced if they turned up the heat and applied it long enough – someone would crack and spill the beans on the whereabouts of the dope.
12:44 am on August 25th, 2011 139
So the kids got treated the same way Korean and foreign adults are already treated by cops trying to weed out pot. And instead of saying, “Gee, I shouldn’t have been smoking pot in this country,” they grouse about how the police tried to get them to crack?
I don’t know why, but it reminds me of the card-playing octet, one of whom admitted that that card game “was allegedly being played.” It’s not my fault for breaking the law; the law is wrong for trying to break me!
3:21 am on August 25th, 2011 140
kushibo wrote:
The vast majority of the kids didn’t have anything to do with the dope dealing. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time – and they were American. I don’t like the idea of the police rounding up a large group of people – the vast majority of whom were innocent bystanders – holding them against their will – and refusing them the right to contact legal counsel.
Sure – the cops got a couple of positive urinalysis results/convictions out of it. But they trampled all over the rights of the other 28 in the process.
3:59 am on August 25th, 2011 141
So the cops are supposed to know who are the ones smoking pot, and who are the ones just sipping “coke”, by just looking at them?
4:06 am on August 25th, 2011 142
They also fall under the SOFA.
They should be treated under the stipulation of the rules. If they aren’t under the SOFA, they should be treated under the Korean laws.
4:11 am on August 25th, 2011 143
“So the kids got treated the same way Korean and foreign adults are already treated by cops trying to weed out pot.”
What is standard practice and the law in Korea? Maybe one of the lawyers here can chime in again?
Is it standard practice in Korea to deny phone calls and legal council when requested?
If so, sounds like a serious problem in the Korean justice system.
4:59 am on August 25th, 2011 144
Since the kids were drinking in the first place, I’m willing to bet USFK let the Korean cops ‘have at them’ a little more than they needed to. If anyone remembers the whiskey bottle through the bus window incident:
http://www.stripes.com/news/s-korean-prosecutors-to-charge-u-s-soldier-with-assault-1.36052
then it becomes a little more clear why USFK might not have as much pity on some SOFA dependent ‘kids gone wild’. Since the MPs can’t enforce off-post, the KNP are really the only solution. Everyone knows that when it comes to drugs over here, they pretty-much ‘ain’t playin’ and if these kids’ parents didn’t reinforce that, well – you get what you get. Not saying its 100% right, but I can see what might have led to this attitude…
5:02 am on August 25th, 2011 145
https://www.facebook.com/groups/fishercominghome/
Looks like Andre will serve the remainder of the two years. His supporters are now worried for his safety. Stephannie White is off the handle again suggesting they may try to murder him in jail.
5:43 am on August 25th, 2011 146
If true, the family (if they keep looking around) will have to live with the fact they did more to keep him in jail than get him out.
The 2nd incident could have had a significant enough influence, but judging by cases over the years, if he’d paid the compensation money and stuck with his apology for damage to the police vehicle, he’d probably have had his sentence reduced after the appeal.
If he didn’t pay the compensation money before the appeal was decided, then he totally disregarded advice.
Sentences commonly get reduced on appeal.
If his wasn’t, it is an oddity, and it probably stems more from the actions of his family and himself after the initial verdict than it does the 2nd crime, I think…
5:53 am on August 25th, 2011 147
@145, she’s more than off the handle. Apparently the cops must have slipped him drugs, etc
no one on that side has done themselves any favours. I see TWM has failed to update their story. Looks like they backed the wrong horse..
6:16 am on August 25th, 2011 148
Read what Jill Fisher says:
“i would like all of us to say a special prayer for andre tonight at 1100 for god to hear us one more time . would also like to thank all of our friends in korea the teachers and edducators for being there for andre ”
So exactly what are the “teachers and educators in Korea, who are friends to the Fishers”, telling the Fishers and their supporters?
Man… talk about drama.. but don’t let the truth get in the way.
6:20 am on August 25th, 2011 149
I can’t blame Mrs. Fisher for believing and sticking up for her son.
It’s the people in Korea (the “teachers” and the educators”), who are giving her terrible ideals in her heads. They’re the ones to blame for this pathetic drama.
6:21 am on August 25th, 2011 150
Tom,
Refer to post #95 and then share your thoughts with us.
John in NY,
“Stephannie White is off the handle again suggesting they may try to murder him in jail.”
Actually, Stephannie might be right. I’m trying to think of the last time an enlisted black GI got out of the SOFA jail alive. Actually there was that Washington guy but he never walked again.
If Andre hadn’t been adopted, he might have had a chance… but I don’t think that either the Afro-Officer Mafia or the Kimchee Soul Brothers will protect him.
The Yellow Dragon Loco Dawgs will tear him up.
I doubt he will last the fall.
6:26 am on August 25th, 2011 151
#150, this is just beginning. Just wait until the US senators and the US media (which already has), get involved with “FREE Fisher” campaign. Wait until his parents go on ABC Good Morning America to plea for their son who is in grave danger.
6:27 am on August 25th, 2011 152
Isn’t he separated from the Korean population in jail? And he gets his own room too. Or is this only until the trial is decided and then he goes back to regular jail? I’m not sure how all this works.
6:31 am on August 25th, 2011 153
#152, don’t get me started, cause I’m mad as hell today.
6:50 am on August 25th, 2011 154
Read the US government’s own human rights report on Korean prisons, that’s posted on their web site.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eap/135996.htm
There were no reports that the government or its agents committed arbitrary or unlawful killings.
Official figures indicated that hazing was a factor in many of the 356 suicides by military personnel since 2004.
b. Disappearance
There were no reports of politically motivated disappearances.
c. Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
The law prohibits mistreatment of suspects, and officials generally observed this prohibition in practice.
Prison and Detention Center Conditions
Prison and detention center conditions generally met international standards. The government permitted monitoring visits by independent human rights observers, and such visits occurred during the year.
——-***
The ones who get the worst are the Korean soldiers who may face hazings, and the Koreans who may break the National Security Law. No mention of USFK soldiers being held unlawfully and getting harmed or murdered in prisons.
10:44 am on August 25th, 2011 155
Jinro Dukkohbi wrote:
???
USFK didn’t know anything about it until after the fact.
10:52 am on August 25th, 2011 156
Tom driveled:
So tell me Tom – if you’re sitting at a bar in Toronto minding you’re own business – and the CMP storm the place because they got a tip that someone was dealing drugs in that bar…
You’re OK with the idea of the CMP snatching YOU up, taking you to the police station, interrogating you — all the while refusing you access to legal representation?
After all – how were they supposed to know if you were the one with the dope – or just an innocent bystander drinking a beer?
11:01 am on August 25th, 2011 157
The “Free Fisher Campaign” is FINISHED…there is nothing more any of us can do but pray that he remains strong both mentally and physcially. Again, I apologize if we offended anyone and would never intentionally lie to anyone about the details or facts…we just “knew” what we were told and went on that…I guess all of the Andre Fisher “haters” got exactly what they wanted….God Bless you all. Jill
11:09 am on August 25th, 2011 158
Actually, I think it’s a sad thing that Andre couldn’t be freed. However, when much of the supporters are spouting lies throughout the whole process, it’s not going to go well with most folks who actually do the research. You still have “supporters” advising you to do what you can so Andre doesn’t get killed or drugged. What you do from here is critical. You can descend to the depths like some of these “friends” of yours like Stephannie White or you can learn from this, realize you should have been more truthful and used this site to gather more information. This site was the one resource that could’ve dug up more information for you than most given its connections with the military.
11:10 am on August 25th, 2011 159
You still have one more appeal at your disposal.
Then you need to face the US Military afterwards. I would’ve thought the US Military was the one you’d have a tougher fight with.
11:25 am on August 25th, 2011 160
Jill Fisher
I wish you and Andre the best and I’ll keep following here. I was never a supporter or hater in this case because I never felt very sure about the information being passed around.
11:42 am on August 25th, 2011 161
“So tell me Tom – if you’re sitting at a bar in Toronto minding you’re own business – and the CMP storm the place because they got a tip that someone was dealing drugs in that bar…”
No Guitard, that’s not what you described happened. The K-Cops got a tip that a GROUP of USFK dependents were using pot. They were part of a group, not just bystanders, so it’s fair game to go after them, as far as I’m concerned.
“You’re OK with the idea of the CMP snatching YOU up, taking you to the police station, interrogating you — all the while refusing you access to legal representation?”
Your American government’s own human rights report on your embassy web page says the Korean police generally protects the right to legal representation by the accused. So if I had to decide who was telling the truth here, I would pick the K-cop’s words over the spoiled USFK dependent kids out on a drunken binge party, complete with pot party (in which two of the kids were found to be guilty of – as you have claimed).
I’m glad S.Korea is hard on drug crimes, and Americans have no right to dictate how S.Korea carries out their law enforcements against drug criminals, considering what kind of a shape America is when it comes to narcotics ruining the social landscape.
Besides, those kids probably didn’t even serve any time, let alone get any criminal record in their files, unlike what would have happened to Koreans getting caught for similar offenses.
So please stop the whinings, it’s getting sickeningly tiring to hear about how foreigners are being targeted unfairly by the Korean police.
12:14 pm on August 25th, 2011 162
Mrs. Fisher, don’t believe in all the horror stories that ESL teachers in Korea are telling you. They are either disgruntled with the country because their jobs don’t measure up to their expectations, or they’re the people who have read too much sensationalized “news” on Korea related blogs, think they know everything about the country, and now they’ve infected themselves with bitterness.
Your son will be fine in the Korean prison which is especially designed to house USFK prisoners at Cheonan. No one’s going to harm him. There will be books, TV’s, steak dinners. He’ll have his own roomy cell with a kitchen of his own, a nice clean warm bed, groceries delivered, US official visiting him to make sure he’s all comfy. He’ll have two years of time to sober up, and think about what he’s going to do when he gets out. Read below and see for yourself what type of prison your son will probably be living in, just don’t believe all the drama hype that people in Korea are telling you about.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2917081
12:23 pm on August 25th, 2011 163
But kids engaged in underage drinking in a bar are not innocent bystanders, not by Korean law anyway.
You went from kids thirty “socializing” in a “restaurant” to revealing they were involved in underage drinking. Now I know having lived in Seoul as a teen that kids do get carded at drinking establishments, so I’m thinking there could be more to it than that — regular payoffs to allow them to drink there, use of fake IDs or others’ IDs, etc. Maybe even rowdy behavior that got them in trouble.
And recalling the way the card-playing octet and now Andre Fisher supporters have told their side of the story in the most favorable possible light (e.g., hiding facts from you that would seem incriminating, or exaggerating perceived abuses of the police, or questioning whether the cops had any business being there in the first place), I’m wondering if some of these thirty were telling you, guitard, the whole story. Maybe the parents know a good reason or two not to go ballistic or to just let it go.
As I understand it, people have a right to refuse a pee test in most cases, but the cops can also use your cooperation as a sign that you’re probably okay. What it comes down to is that refusal is a good idea if you are worried your pee will reveal something, but it’s a bad idea if you’ve got nothing to hide.
12:32 pm on August 25th, 2011 164
Some years ago I helped a group of Canadian and American English teachers who been rounded up for pot smoking (and distribution) by advising them on what to say and not to say, getting them a lawyer, making sure they weren’t being railroaded with a Sunday hearing, and making their respective embassies aware of the situation.
I also advised some of their friends, some of whom had were literally hours away from having the police walk in on them for arrest as well. One person admitted to me he’d been smoking pot with them, and I told him what an effin’ idiot he was (while helping him, of course), and I told him that if you can’t forgo pot-smoking during the duration of your time in Korea, then you shouldn’t be here in the first place. In fact, perhaps you shouldn’t be here right now. I reiterated that point several times.
But, he asked, what if they give me the pee test and I tell them that I was smoking pot on my vacation to Japan? I told him that probably wouldn’t matter, and I reiterated perhaps you shouldn’t be here right now.
But he kept on with this idea that he could do an end-run on what he figured were keystone cops of some sort by insisting his pot-smoking had been in Japan.
He kept repeating this assertion, to me and later to others. And he did so so often that, seriously, he actually started to believe that the pot smoking he’d done in Korea was all done in Japan.
So in the end, even though he’d admitted breaking the law to me, he’d convinced his girlfriend and some others around him that he’s totally innocent and being railroaded along with his friends.
Trippy.
12:46 pm on August 25th, 2011 165
John in NY wrote:
Facebook is evil and I won’t go to that link, so can you provide me with the gist of it? Basically the judge refused the appeal and he will serve out the rest of his sentence? If that’s the case, below are my closing thoughts.
First, there is still a very good chance that he will NOT serve the rest of his term, particularly if he is well behaved in the Korean prison. The amnesty process is part of the judicial process, and they are always looking for ways to release people who’ve learned their lesson and haven’t caused any trouble (plus the occasional murderous son of USFK personnel due to paperwork error, but that’s another story for another time).
If Andre Fisher doesn’t act out and keeps his cool (and it might be easier to do without any alcohol around), he could get out substantially earlier.
Second, his family needs to realize they’ve got a young man with a drinking problem and possibly rage issues. Go and get him the help he needs instead of blaming the system. In the meantime, he should use his time in jail for reflection on what he did wrong and what he needs to do right to get his life back in order.
He should hope the US military will be so kind as to let him have any kind of discharge that is not dishonorable or bad conduct. Some comments by ChickenHead and Jinro confirm what I’ve believed to be the case, and it would make a life sentence of sorts for something that shouldn’t be.
Finally, Andre Fisher had a lot of people using his case as a proxy for their own demons, and that has done a disservice to Andre Fisher and his family in particular, and to the anglophone community of Korea in general. That puts up a wall through which they try to prevent inconvenient facts from getting through, and this distorts how we perceive reality.
From Metropolitician’s “arrest” to card-playing octets being targeted for being a foreigner to this canard of being treated railroaded by the police and courts for being Black, a foreigner, and an adoptee, it creates a distortion that ossifies into a giant chip on the shoulder of many people who read K-blogs.
The problem, then, is when they react to situations based not on a more objective reality but on what the K-blogs told them (inaccurately or exaggeratedly) is really going on.
12:52 pm on August 25th, 2011 166
kushibo
You post 161 reminds me why I was a token volunteer when the need for random testing came up in my platoon there.
This kind of cracks me up a bit.
1:01 pm on August 25th, 2011 167
Stephannie White’s young son died and that is enough to put anyone over the edge.
At first it sounded like an accident, an unfortunate incident, or a even an unforeseen health issue (her son looked to be unhealthily overweight and he was hanging around for hours (?) in a hot tub and hot sauna).
But if you read her Mightie Mike website, she is convinced it is murder:
She goes on to describe an environment of racial animus that is somehow connected to her son’s “murder,” from “illegal” HIV testing to the rise of Anti-English Spectrum to the anti-beef riots.
She says “Mike is but one of a rapidly growing list of foreign murder victims in South Korea” which the US embassy and State Department ignore as they “looked the other way in favor of securing a Free Trade Agreement.”
I listened to the video and read through the site sometime ago, but it’s really hard to know what she has actually learned and what she has filled in through speculation. She is either someone deeply disturbed by a horrible murder for which she’s getting nearly zero cooperation, or she’s the mother of a child who died an unfortunate death and she has spun herself into some sort of psychiatric problem.
In either case, she probably sincerely believes Andre Fisher will be murdered in prison. Just like someone from Anti-English Spectrum was going to kill ATEK heads and then English teachers.
Okay, I’m going to stop now. I’m putting this out there because it’s always been a niggling and uncomfortable impression I have regarding things this poor woman now involves herself with.
1:22 pm on August 25th, 2011 168
I was once leaning towards believing Stephannie White myself but it got to the point where it was hard to separate the truth from the loony toons on her site.
2:57 pm on August 25th, 2011 169
Also, if I were to copy and paste everything at the facebook site, I’d be here all day. You have them calling for boycotting all things Korea and even asking if the Seals are available. Some are vowing to continue the fight and have contacted local news stations.
3:03 pm on August 25th, 2011 170
Jill Fisher,
“I apologize if we offended anyone and would never intentionally lie to anyone about the details or facts”
I don’t think anyone has enough emotional investment to be truly offended. Irritated is a better word.
While you “would never intentionally lie”, there were a lot of blatant untruths told… and you made no effort to address them when they were exposed. This can easily be mistaken for intentional lying.
“we just “knew” what we were told and went on that”
It is not clear who “told” you what. It is less clear why you believed them in the face of all logically-presented evidence.
You certainly didn’t listen to the obviously-qualified people here who tried to tell you the REAL truth through clear writing and a willingness to openly address further questions.
There are many people here with knowledge, experience, and motivation, to help an American soldier in this situation… and are willing to do so even if he is completely in the wrong.
Instead of being straightforward with these people, you went out of your way to marginalize and contradict them to support a clearly mythical account of the entire situation.
The reality is that Andre would be free right now if you had been truthful, asked the right questions, and followed the recommended procedures set out by people who clearly knew what they were talking about and were willing to share minute details to demonstrate that fact.
But that is the past.
Andre still has to face the military.
If you continue the same course of action, all of the wrong things will be done when that time comes… and there is a real possibility that Andre will be a dishonorably-discharged second-class citizen with a life sentence as a marginalized member of society.
If you insist on “knowing” only what you are told, then know this:
Plans need to be made NOW for how Andre will deal with the military in the future. There are people here who can give great advice on what he needs to be preparing over the coming months.
You can continue doing what you have been doing, which will only compound Andre’s chain of failure… or you can ask these people for advice, ask intelligent follow-up questions, and actively assist Andre in preparing for his future.
“…I guess all of the Andre Fisher “haters” got exactly what they wanted…”
There are no Andre haters.
There are bullshyt haters. There are haters of people who cause needless trouble for others. There are people who have strong emotional attachments to Korea or the United States military and will defend them against misrepresentations and lies.
In fact, if you take a deep breath and reread much of what has been written, you will find quite a bit of concern for what is best for Andre… details on how to reduce his legal entanglements, advice to avoid alcohol, pleas for him to get his life together, a desire for rehabilitation to be the end result of his punishment, and a concern that the military doesn’t tarnish his ability to get a job for the rest of his life with a dishonorable discharge.
Once again, Jill, if you really care about Andre, you need to decide who is in the best position to help Andre… the emotional crowd with thin connections to the entire situation which has “told” you nothing but lies… or the logical crowd which has connections and experience with USFK and the Korean legal system and has consistently been able to uncover the truth.
You then need to stop talking about “Andre haters” and humbly ask for advice on what to do to best help Andre prepare for his future.
So, good luck to you, Jill. Hopefully, you make the right choices here at the end of this ordeal and the beginning of the next.
And one other thing… there are no Afro Mafias or Soul Brothers or Loco Dawgs. Andre, as all others before him in the same situation, will be just fine in one of the safest and best provided-for jails in the world.
His biggest danger comes from emotional and psychological stresses generated by misguided “supporters” who concentrate on past manufactured injustice instead of giving him sincere hope by helping him chart a realistic course toward future success in life.
Good luck again, Jill.
3:26 pm on August 25th, 2011 171
John in NY wrote:
That’s what I find so frustrating about her case.
It’s either all true, partly true, or not true at all. Certainly if it’s all true, but even if it’s partly true, it presents a lot of things that should be addressed. But she really does come off as looney enough about stuff, plus there’s stuff she says about things not related to her son’s death that I can verify are not true, that it’s easy to dismiss it all.
On the face of it, her contention that her son was surrounded and beaten (accidentally to death) by some Taegu teenagers calling him “hamburger boy” is a bit implausible. But is it any more plausible than her overweight son having had a medical episode in a sauna?
Stephannie White is not the only “looney” I’ve known in Korea, and it’s no surprise that they latch on to similar issues. The widespread acceptance and insistence that a member of AES was planning a killing spree on English teachers probably rang true with such a group, as it did with Stephannie White. What disturbs me more is that I think one/some of them might have crossed over from being angry at AES to turning into a Bruce Ivins of sorts, making the case for how dangerous AES really is by trying to pin a threat on AES.
3:32 pm on August 25th, 2011 172
(I should clarify that I know Ms White only online, not in real life. There are a number of K-bloggers and K-blog commenters I’m friends with or have met in person, but she is not among them. I think what I wrote made it sound as if I was suggesting I knew her in person, when in fact I might have a very different impression of her if I knew her in other circumstances.)
3:51 pm on August 25th, 2011 173
hey kushibo if you are korean why do you have a picture of a white baby?
5:26 pm on August 25th, 2011 174
“You still have one more appeal at your disposal.”
What is the appeal process? How many appeals?
I was wondering about this the other day. It wasn’t clear from the cases I’ve read over the years in the press. Usually, you just get the original verdict and nothing on the appeals, but I do vaguely remember that there is more than 1 appeal.
But, the window of opportunity for doing something to get out of jail has either closed or is very narrow now that the first appeal has been heard.
I don’t mind seeing some jail time due to the resisting arrest and the 2nd crime – though none of the crimes individually would likely see jail time in Korea.
I do have a hard time believing he’d have stayed in jail if his family had not taken his case to the internet including American news sources. There have just been too many examples of worse crimes committed by Koreans and foreigners who have not remained in jail after appeal or received very light sentences.
Like I noted earlier, rapes get about 2 years. They have even received suspended sentences.
I have to think the effort to “free” him hurt his chance of getting out on appeal.
5:50 pm on August 25th, 2011 175
Chickenhead if you have the best interest for an American soldier in a Korean prison, please email me bogee99@ptd.net. I could really use your help I am the brother of Andre Fisher. I will not ask for help in this forum because of the damage that might be done. Anyone with any suggestions on how to proceed can email me.
5:54 pm on August 25th, 2011 176
John, unfortunately the website on facebook is not controlled by the family. We do not control what is said on facebook. There are over 500 members.
6:48 pm on August 25th, 2011 177
Tom driveled even more and wrote:
Tom – are you sure you’re Korean?? Because your numbers comprehension really sucks.
Here’s my original statement:
Did you catch the reference to a number in that statement? It’s the eighth word in the sentence. It’s the word “one.” Just in case you still aren’t comprehending that – I’ll spell it out for you in Korean: 하나.
Perhaps in your world – one person equals a group of people. But to the rest of the world – one person equals one person.
6:58 pm on August 25th, 2011 178
Kushibo wrote:
First of all – the drinking had NOTHING to do with why the cops showed up. Secondly – when I said they were socializing – did you seriously think I meant they were there doing something like playing checkers and swapping baseball cards?? And thirdly – places were high school kids can go and drink in Seoul are a dime a dozen.
7:01 pm on August 25th, 2011 179
175 I don’t think the family has much to worry about.
I can’t remember reading about any GI convicts being abused in the prison, and I’ve followed this issue for years. I can remember one incident where a GI convicted of murder bashed another in the head with his tray in the dining area, but that is it.
Search for Cheonan Correctional Institution.
GIs convicted in Korean courts have long been housed together. In more recent years, other foreign nationals have also been placed together outside of the Korean convict general population, and according to recent articles, the prison in which GIs were held in a special wing has been totally converted to handle the rising number of foreigners convicted in Korea.
7:29 pm on August 25th, 2011 180
Guitard wrote:
Perhaps, perhaps not. But it certainly gave the police the pretext for going after them, eh?
No, but I didn’t think you they were sitting around drinking.
Maybe so, and when the police come in, they shouldn’t be surprised when the probe comes out.
7:30 pm on August 25th, 2011 181
Good luck to you Dan.
7:40 pm on August 25th, 2011 182
I agree with Kushibo on the kids having no grounds for complaint being hauled in by the police if they were drinking underage – no matter how common places are like that for Korean high school kids.
Continuing to hold them without allowing them to contact their parents and a lawyer in order to question them, however, is different. I’m sure it violates their SOFA protection and I think it probably violates Korean law too.
(Whether or not it is standard practice for detained Koreans despite the laws, I don’t know…)
8:07 pm on August 25th, 2011 183
Dishonorable and Bad Conduct discharges are punitive discharges that may only be given after a court-martial. It is the policy of the US Army not to court-martial Soldiers for crimes for which they have been convicted in a ROK court. Soldiers confined in foreign prisons are typically administratively separated upon their release (honorable, general, other than honorable, etc.)
9:04 pm on August 25th, 2011 184
1. No one here hates Andre Fisher. We hate criminals though.
2. Keep praying Jill, it has worked out so well for you up until now! I would suggest speaking tongues. I did like the idea of everyone, at exactly 11:00 (though you didn’t mention which time zone) praying to tell your god he is wrong and has always been wrong and you want him to change his mind. Golden. I’m sure he’ll save you all a warm seat in Gehenna for publicly admonishing him and doubting him.
Just so you know, I might have accidentally counteracted your prayers, which I’m sure would have worked otherwise, when I stuck pins in my Andre Fisher voodoo doll, at 11:00. Sorry about that. I was pissed about my car being vandalized outside Camp Casey.
BTW: I work with SOLDIERS from 4th Chem daily.
/Jill, you are either in denial or delusional. Get real professional help from someone with a science degree rather than theology studies.
//oh, and quit blaming others, and your invisible friend, for your boys misdeeds. He’ll survive Korean jail just fine. He might even learn something that you were unable to teach him.
9:23 pm on August 25th, 2011 185
“John, unfortunately the website on facebook is not controlled by the family. We do not control what is said on facebook. There are over 500 members.”
You can block anyone from commenting on there who you like. Once again, half truths or you aren’t taking time to learn the ins and outs (or don’t want to know). If you are saying no one in the family is in any way connected to the facebook site, I promise if you email the facebook admins and explain the situation, they will delete the entire thing. Quit bullshytting the bullshytters.
…and get that young man Andre some REAL help instead of using shamans.
10:03 pm on August 25th, 2011 186
Not that I’m defending them, I never would, but does anyone here actually have any evidence that the kerfuffle on the internet actually reached the courts in any way?
10:11 pm on August 25th, 2011 187
did he plead guilty?
10:20 pm on August 25th, 2011 188
Fanwarrior, no. It is just reasonable speculation. If he didn’t pay the compensation money, it could also explain why his sentence wasn’t reduced on appeal which you’d expect to happen.
Hardandtiny, he pleaded innocent and was found guilty and his first appeal just came through with no reduction of sentence – though we haven’t seen that in the news yet.
10:28 pm on August 25th, 2011 189
HE SHOULD HAVE PLEADED GUILTY AND GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE.
11:10 pm on August 25th, 2011 190
Dan,
“I could really use your help I am the brother of Andre Fisher.”
I am not qualified to advise you in how best to deal with the military in this situation… but others here are.
“I will not ask for help in this forum because of the damage that might be done.”
I believe that is not the correct course of action.
Let me explain.
Unless you are up to something underhanded, there is no reason to secretively discuss what is best for Andre’s future. There is no “trick” or “angle”… there is just Doing the Right Thing. That doesn’t need to be a secret. It should be known that Andre wants to do it.
Intentions and actions working to make him a better person are commendable, respectable, and incite leniency. That should be Andre’s public face… and, actually, it should be his private face, too.
In fact, it is better to have an open record of good advice which can demonstrate the person Andre was, the person he wished to become, and the steps he took to become that better person.
Further, as everyone’s experience is slightly different, you may get conflicting advice privately… with no way to judge what is best. Openly, you will see arguments among intelligent and experienced commenters until one or two paths of great advice result.
You will also get a much larger volume of good advice as people contribute additional thoughts triggered by the writings of others.
There are a lot of people here with years of experience as soldiers and leaders… and, perhaps, offenders. There may even be people here who can/will have some influence on what happens to Andre when he gets out of jail.
The best action is to get them all involved in deciding what is best for Andre.
And, then, he must follow that advice… and, every now and then, you must post an HONEST update of how he is doing, what problems he is facing, what he is accomplishing, what further advice he needs, etc.
Nobody likes to see a serial offender… but everybody feels good about a guy who chooses to leave all that behind him… and many are willing to help a guy like that.
Society benefits from Andre succeeding. It does not benefit from his continued failure. Most people, when looking at it that way, will want Andre to succeed from this point forward.
So what is my advice?
If managed correctly, his time in jail will be the turning point in his life that prepares him for future success.
If his time is spent complaining about injustice or trying to assign blame to everyone else, he will emerge bitter and hateful and far down the path of future failure.
So, off the top of my head… with more to come if the conversation turns that way…
1. He needs to get over this. He needs to make an honest commitment to himself to not get involved in the type of actions that got him where he is… not just damaging police property… but also how he manages alcohol, who he hangs out with, what types of places he goes to, what type of gangster lifestyle he wants to emulate, etc.
2. He needs to read. He now has lots of free time… and a chance to gain an education that few others will ever have time for. He doesn’t need to read the latest pop-fiction novels. He needs to read some classics which speak clearly of the best and worst parts of humanity, their motivations, and their successful and failed responses to difficult situations. He needs to read some motivational and self-help books. He needs to read about business and psychology and politics and law. The list goes on and on.
3. He needs to get formally educated. Reading will do that… but he needs a piece of paper that says he did it. More importantly, he needs structured lessons in reading, critical thinking, and writing… which college courses will give him. And, unlike the lives of many students filled with distraction, the deck is stack FOR him in terms of success.
As a family wishing to help him, it is your responsibility to get him the programs and materials he needs to achieve whatever goals he decides on. It is your responsibility to keep him motivated. It is your responsibility to seek any help he needs in whatever way returns the best results… even if that requires swallowing some pride or admitting mistakes.
Nobody sees it now… but in ten years, he will look back on this time in jail as a NECESSARY part of his life… the part that turned him from what he has been into a person with clear goals and the tools to accomplish them.
I’m sure others can add excellent advice.
And, of course, if anyone disagrees with anything I have written, I’ll be happy to argue my point or yield to superior reasoning.
Dan, the best advice I can give you now is to be honest with everybody… including yourself… as that will get you the most sincere and helpful information. Ask for advice, don’t be afraid to ask pointed follow-up questions if you don’t agree or are unclear, and keep notes of the important points with a timeline of when they have to be accomplished.
And, importantly, keep in mind that nobody hates Andre Fisher… but they hate what he represented… foolish actions, drunken violence, petty crime, embarrassment for America and the military, a focal point for agitators and wackos, encouragement of troublesome stereotypes for foreigners, blacks, and soldiers… etc.
If he represents an educated and capable person focused on success, there will be only admiration… even more-so if he manages to completely put his past behind him instead of falling back to old habits as most do.
Good luck, Dan.
11:11 pm on August 25th, 2011 191
I feel I am being over moderated on some postings lately. The last was a valid post with valid points made. Like it or not, not all people share the same world view. Pointing out the silliness and hypocrisy of the majority of posting on the free Andre facebook site is well within the scope of this topic.
I’ve always respected the Rokdrop as a place for the free exchange of ideas from a broad spectrum of commentors here. It is a shame it has come to this. I can only assume it is religious based bigotry. A fine example indeed. Sad day for all. …and a good way to start losing loyal readers.
11:27 pm on August 25th, 2011 192
I’ll put the post in the pending file for GI Korea to decide on.
It was a personal attack with no value beyond ridicule.
If it was primarily a reaction to thoughts and opinions on the facebook site, you could have posted it there.
Then to see you whine about someone having bigotry concerning religion….Yeah. Sure. Funny…
11:34 pm on August 25th, 2011 193
It was most certainly not a personal attack. I’m certain there was sarcasm and it was a direct response to her last post. Is that the only reason you deleted it? Are you encouraging ROKdrop readers to post on other sites rather than here? Me whining? Really? Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today?
…and what about the post in response to #189
HE SHOULD HAVE PLEADED GUILTY AND GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE.
where I replied:
“He should have plead guilty, PAID THE MONEY, and got the hell out of there!”
Why did that one disappear?
If you have a problem with me, I can stop posting here. Just say the word.
11:39 pm on August 25th, 2011 194
…more the point being, the commenters who post here enrich the blog through their efforts regardless of the worth YOU place on their opinions. Without commenters, ROKdrop is nothing. I’m not going to expend effort to post comments if you are going to delete them because you disagree with them or YOU think they are not worthy.
/I’ll drop it in this thread as this is not the topic at hand.
11:44 pm on August 25th, 2011 195
It was a personal attack. And if the belittling, angry-sounding comment is a reaction to things written at another site, yes, I’d rather people get into the fights about it over there, not here.
Like I noted a couple of months ago, I think the quality of the exchange of thoughts in this comment forum had gone too far downhill — with short comments designed to do little more than insult and ridicule becoming more common than the occasional exception.
As far as I can remember, this was the first comment of yours fully moderated.
As for the response to #189 — I haven’t seen it.
It isn’t in the spam or trash folder.
It hasn’t shown up on the site.
11:58 pm on August 25th, 2011 196
195. I don’t want to get in a pissing contest here but I strongly disagree. I would also note that *sometimes* things NEED to be insulted and ridiculed especially if they are utterly contemptible. She refers to us as “Andre haters” was spiteful and then ordered her deity to “bless us”. Well no thank you sir. This on top of the ignorance displayed over at that other place which shall not be named. It is sickening but I was responding to a post MADE HERE.
I can also assure you the other post WAS made, it went through, it even showed up on the little comment preview thingy on top of the page.
I am a long time poster her and GI has NEVER expressed any concern over my comments to me. Whether he agreed with the content or not. He seems to have the intellectual honesty to allow a broad range of views here.
Sometimes discourse can get ugly. In this PC world we could do with a little more honest discourse. We might get more things done and fix some of our problems. Or, we can continue to bury our heads in the sand and ignore the root cause of many issues we all share. After viewing the other site I think I see part of the problem with young Andres upbringing and why he cannot accept responsibility for his actions.
I’m deeply disappointed in the ROKdrop today.
12:15 am on August 26th, 2011 197
On the missing comment — I can’t find the post you’re talking about. It isn’t in any of the folders and a word-specific search didn’t turn it up.
I have no idea where it is, and I’m pretty sure GI Korea hasn’t been on to do anything with it.
Next, I went through a few pages of comments of yours to check, and as far as I can tell, this is the first comment you have had moderated.
It stings that bad? Enough to feel like you are being driven from the site?
The site has had a comment policy for a long time. It has rarely been applied, but there have been a couple of occasions in which it was felt things were getting too far down, and for a limited period of time, the comment policies were applied in order to remind people they are there and turn the tide.
I felt that we had reached that point a couple of months ago.
I don’t like doing it, and it isn’t an easy thing to do.
I understand the value of a good, healthy comment section.
So, I don’t take it lightly. I’ve tried to keep the editing to a minimum and only for awhile to remind people there are some guidelines to sharing your thoughts here.
12:33 am on August 26th, 2011 198
197. Once again I attacked her beliefs and modus operendi but it was not a personal attack. Did it sting you? I did not call her anything. I replied to her comment with the level of contempt I felt it deserved. I firmly believe those same beliefs have adversely affected young Andre. With all the praying going on over there you’d think we’d have world peace and no famine by now. It is just silly. These people seem to be unable to function in everyday life without their invisible friend (actually in this case their fall guy). I find it preposterous!
Noting I’ve never been moderated before builds a very serious case that I should not have been moderated this time. I’m pretty sure I’ve been here almost since ROKdrops inception. 6, 8, 10 years? (I can’t find my first post
)I don’t take it lightly either and I stand beside the comment. Pick it apart if you like. Call me a naughty name if you must but do it for all to see.
Enough to feel like you are being driven from the site?
As I stated, what is the point of adding content to the site, which helps drive traffic, if I’m looking over my shoulder so to speak. I wasn’t happy about Tom being moderated before, even though I disagree with damn near everything he writes. I don’t want anyone moderated except for spammers or people who go WAY over the line, death threats and such possibly being an example. The entire value of the site is one can read others views and one might be able to even go so far as ridicule someone they do not agree with. It’s a valuable and healthy thing. We’re all adults here.
I understand your concerns but believe this was unjust and overzealous moderation that was maybe, just possibly, tinged by ones core values – be they right or wrong.
1:14 am on August 26th, 2011 199
And this is where I disagree – primarily if too many of the comments (by all) are being written to ridicule and insult.
And when you ridiculue someone’s religous beliefs, you are ridiculing the person just as much as if you were insulting them for their skin color or nationality.
I don’t know what they are doing over on the facebook account.
1:33 am on August 26th, 2011 200
Could be some of that too.
It mostly has to do with timing – with the comment coming at one of the rare times we’ve attempted to do some minimal cleanup in the comment section.
I can also say with confidence it is not based on my limited personal beliefs: If you’d been ridiculing her for Buddhist or Hindu beliefs, during this time period, I’d have put it in moderation.
1:36 am on August 26th, 2011 201
I guess it’s settled then. I refuse to be silenced on this issue especially when it is obvious this persons beliefs likely led to the status of this kid. Guess I might take a break… God bless.
1:44 am on August 26th, 2011 202
You’re not being silenced, though. I think that’s fairly obvious.
You can certainly state opinions about her beliefs and layout how you think they are involved in his case.
Bashing and ridiculuing her for her beliefs, especially based primarily on comment 157, is another thing. Asking not to do that is far from silencing someone.
(I’d offer a blessing too, but since you react heatedly too that, I’ll hold off…)
3:07 am on August 26th, 2011 203
Did we lose Leon? I usually find his comments pretty interesting.
3:42 am on August 26th, 2011 204
I’m sure he’ll be back, and he is certainly welcome.
4:59 am on August 26th, 2011 205
#184. Right, and now they’re calling for boycotts and rallies at the Korean embassies in NY and DC. The family has done nothing to tone this down. In fact, the family members have “Like”d these posts.
6:15 am on August 26th, 2011 206
“I’m sure he’ll be back, and he is certainly welcome.”
What about me, am I welcome?
“#184. Right, and now they’re calling for boycotts and rallies at the Korean embassies in NY and DC. The family has done nothing to tone this down. In fact, the family members have “Like”d these posts.”
ha ha ha.. Just as I predicted. Did I not predict this?
I told you, this is just the beginning.
7:16 am on August 26th, 2011 207
Tom,
“I told you, this is just the beginning.”
No. It isn’t. It is the end.
Nobody important cares. Anybody with anything going for them will Google his name, find the full story, and run away from the whole situation.
All that is left are the obvious freaks. The best they can do is nothing… and the worst they can do is further irritate the Korean legal system and the military.
His family may or may not fully accept what overwhelmingly appears to be the bitter truth… but some of them seem interested in actually helping him through it all.
If that is the case, they will do everything in their power to stop the madness… even if that requires telling all the “supporters” the full story and clearing up misconceptions and exaggerations.
If they allow all this to continue… well… I have a couple great limericks in mind that I delayed posting until we see how this plays out.
I hope other readers here will post some constructive advice and encourage Andre and his family to do what is correct as they see it.
8:07 am on August 26th, 2011 208
You will see this go on a little further b/c the wrong people will try to keep it going but the fight is losing steam and anyone important enough who can make a difference is sure to get the facts and when those facts are obtained, they will turn and run. I had a strong hunch that the Senators or Congressmen (or even Joe Biden
) that the family contacted would not do anything b/c it’s in their best interest to get the facts right before they stick their necks out for this. It’s telling that they have not made a peep on this issue.
The fact that the family and their supporters were taken to task by those on this site who normally side with the wronged GI goes to show you that there was just too much bs surrounding the story. It’s human nature to want to correct bs and this case was just overflowing with it. Add to the fact that as CH mentioned before that there are those who have strong motivations to defend the US Military and/or Korea and you can see they chose the wrong strategy for this. They should have been forthright with the facts from the beginning. Do not underestimate the bs detecting ability in people. I’ve been a reader of this site long before I started posting and it’s telling that this whole episode is what brought my entry into the ROKDrop forums.
If the family wanted to show that they are trying to do the right thing, the facebook page, other support sites, or news interviews would not continue to paint Korea and the US military as the enemy and they would not support (or facebook Like) calls to boycott Korea, send SEALs teams to attempt a “rescue”, and call for rallies against the embassies in DC or NY.
8:26 am on August 26th, 2011 209
“If the family wanted to show that they are trying to do the right thing, the facebook page, other support sites, or news interviews would not continue to paint Korea and the US military as the enemy and they would not support (or facebook Like) calls to boycott Korea, send SEALs teams to attempt a “rescue”, and call for rallies against the embassies in DC or NY.”
I remember the true story of the American woman who got her son back, after her Korean husband took off with the kid to Korea, in a custody battle. The woman hired a private eye, flew to South Korea in the stealth of the night, and “miraculously” “rescued” the little boy from the clutches of the evil South Korean authority (in this case, the boy was snatched from a pre-school daycare center, oh what danger
), and escaped South Korea in the dead of night, right under the dangerous South Korean police.
This was made into a book, and a movie.
What drama.
But the funny thing about it is, the woman could have just bought a air ticket to Seoul, and bring the kid home, and nobody would have even noticed or cared. 
But she chose to turn this thing into a drama. Too much Hollywood TV/movie? Why is everything a drama for people in Korea?
9:05 am on August 26th, 2011 210
I have been busy and haven’t been going through the comments. I see we have an issue now. Leon I posted your comment but it is borderline personal attack though I understand the amount of BS this case has generated has caused people to have strong opinions about the people involved.
Tom gets moderated because he intentionally tries to turn the comment section into racist fights. Surprisingly Tom has since moderation been making valid comments that are getting posted on the site.
9:12 am on August 26th, 2011 211
Can you take off my moderation? I promise I’ll be good.
9:26 am on August 26th, 2011 212
Tom, no.
9:27 am on August 26th, 2011 213
Also for those interested Tom is referring to the Tiffany Rubin Story which I rightfully criticized:
http://rokdrop.com/2011/02/28/rok-drop-movie-review-taken-from-me-the-tiffany-rubin-story/
2:33 pm on August 26th, 2011 214
Was Leon LaPorte 184 the naughty comment? I think that’s pretty mild. We respect the right of other people to believe what they want, but we’re not required to respect their beliefs.
If you think the idea that Muhammad was God’s spokesman is ridiculous, you can ridicule it. If you think the Pope’s claim of infallibility is laughable, you can laugh at it. Same goes for evolution or big-bang cosmology. Leon LaPorte is likewise free to show his disdain for prayer. He’s not preventing believers from praying, just giving his opinion of it.
2:48 pm on August 26th, 2011 215
GLANS
The whole idea of Papal Infallibility is a large part of why I’m no longer Catholic.
3:19 pm on August 26th, 2011 216
Japan is not a signatory to the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction… so if you have a kid with a Japanese national and they lose the child in a custody battle in your country and then kidnap them and take them to Japan… You are SOL.
3:39 pm on August 26th, 2011 217
Glans,
So, if the next time I see a Buddhist monk on the sidewalk in Korea banging a gourd and bowing there also happens to be a pack of kids ridiculing him to his face and in front of everybody, then they’re just exercising their right to free speech…ho-hum?
Personal ridicule is not the only form of negative commenting.
The same points can be made in an equal (or I’d say more effective) way without becoming a personal attack – and as I said, ridiculing someone for their religious beliefs is certainly personal.
5:44 pm on August 26th, 2011 218
usinkorea 217, I didn’t have a problem with LeonLaPorte’s comment. I don’t have a problem with ridicule of belief or unbelief on a blog. Public ridicule might be different. Is the believer causing a disturbance? Are the ridiculers causing a disturbance? Things like that affect the acceptability of public ridicule.
I don’t have a problem, either, with your and GI Korea’s management of this blog. Allow, moderate, or ban, whatever and whomever you want. I can comment or not, as I choose.
5:55 pm on August 26th, 2011 219
Leon, come back. We miss you:)
6:20 pm on August 26th, 2011 220
“Is the believer causing a disturbance?”
Here is where the facebook posting and perhaps 3 Wise Monkeys come in – neither of which I’ve read – but likely are a motivating factor. Which is why I noted posting a ridiculuing comment probably makes more sense over there than in relation to Jill’s comments here.
I also don’t have a problemw with a harsh comment here and there, but when things across the board have reached a certain point, a little decorum can be restored.
6:32 pm on August 26th, 2011 221
3 Wise Monkeys has dropped the ball. They’ve made a mess of their article. It’s locked, they’ve inexplicably changed the picture and the title, but not updated the article content, but changed the posted date to make it look like a new article.
I think they’ve realized they backed the wrong horse and are trying to figure out how to spin this.
As for Facebook, I wouldn’t want my real name associated with this trainwreck..
7:17 pm on August 26th, 2011 222
It was very incorrect to remove Leon’s post.
Leon did not introduce religion into this discussion. He reacted to its introduction… and he reacted with correctly-proportioned ridicule.
USinKorea argues it is incorrect to criticize or ridicule religions beliefs… and, social manners-wise, that may be correct in certain situation.
In this case, a group of serial liars are asking God to save a known criminal from the consequences of his actions. This is both a hypocritical offense to God and a well-known last-measure tactic of the truly guilty trying to redirect public opinion.
If someone is unhappy with Leon’s clever and rather mild comment, criticizing it with facts, ridiculing it with equally clever satire, or making an appeal to good manners is the correct course of action.
Arbitrarily removing a disagreeable comment stifles the free exchange of opinion that makes ROKDrop special and discourages others from putting time and effort into voicing an offensive-yet-legitimate point of view. It sets a dangerous precedent to artificially guide the conversation by edict and it alienates a long-time commenter with a track record of worthy comments.
I agree with USinKorea that disruptive one-line throwaway comments are destructive to the flow of conversation. But when someone takes time to fully explain a concept, no matter how disagreeable, it is worthy of consideration… and the problem will solve itself as few people will continue to put effort into long posts that receive no validation.
Once again, it was incorrect to remove Leon’s post and I am glad to see that, after consideration, it was returned. I hope this doesn’t happen again.
Now, let’s return to the topic.
Is there nobody who has legal or life advice for Andre Fisher? I went out on a limb here claiming there were many commenters with intelligence and experience… and y’all lettin’ me down with your silence.
Are you that irritated? Is he that hated?
Our bloodlust has been satisfied. For his criminal actions, and possibly the irritating actions of his supporters, he has been punished. He will sit in a cell for what seems like an eternity while others his age are out drinkin’ and funkin’ and raisin’ hell. This is no small punishment at his age.
There was no early release and there was no mercy for a guy who repeatedly did things which demonstrated that he was best removed from society.
And now that he has been removed from society, the immediate problem has been perfectly solved.
But the long-term problem has not been solved… and, just as it was our duty to expose the truth and do our best to solve the short-term problem, it is our duty to solve the long-term problem.
This can be done by insuring that he remains ignorant and unfocused so when he gets out of jail, society sacrifices a victim or two every few years to put him back into jail.
Or this can be solved by taking a few minutes of time to guide him in the right direction. It may not work… but it is correct to try.
Please don’t disappoint me. Put aside your past irritation and approach this little project with the same enthusiasm we had in rightfully exposing the truth.
Tearing things down is only destructive when it is not followed by rebuilding.
7:33 pm on August 26th, 2011 223
I’ve on numerous occasion, wrote long paragraphs (and not one liners), only to see the posts blocked and deleted, if not certain parts edited out. It’s discouraging to keep on writing, wondering if all the time you spent writing it is going to get deleted again. I support Leon. This moderation thing is blocking free opinions – agreeable or disagreeable. I’m not sure if this post will go through.
8:28 pm on August 26th, 2011 224
I’m with CH. We have torn their testimony apart. Now that justice has been dealt, let’s see what we can do to help the family. However, let’s hope the family makes the hard decision and clears up some of the misinformation that surrounds their crusade. Some of their supporters are still fighting a fight they know jack squat about.
8:47 pm on August 26th, 2011 225
“But when someone takes time to fully explain a concept, no matter how disagreeable, it is worthy of consideration”
I submit the comment was not that. Ridiculing is not (much of) an effort to explain a concept. It’s primary intent is to belittle and demean. Not to engage in discussion.
It tends to curtail discussion rather than generate it. (It might generate fights and free-for-alls, but little actually discussion.)
And generating free-for-alls is what has gotten Tom placed in moderation a few times on the site.
Granted, Tom has a proven track record at this, at times doing damage to the quality of the comment forum, and is not Leon, but when does it become hypocitical to moderate Tom’s personal attacks and let others go?
But I’ll desist.
As noted before, when I began moderating the comments a short while ago, I had in mind putting a time limit on it as a way to remind about the long-established comment policies and encourage some minimal self-censorship.
8:54 pm on August 26th, 2011 226
Tom has not had numerous longer comments blocked, and he has long been the primary instigator in turing threads into gang-wars characterized by driveby shootings instead of a free flow of ideas.
(And Leon had 1 comment placed in the pending folder.)
9:13 pm on August 26th, 2011 227
USinKorea, I humbly submit that you if you have any interest in this topics, it would be worth your while to see what was written by The Three Wise Monkeys and by their commenters. If nothing else, it is a lesson in how memes in/about Korea gain traction.
Anyway, way back in the beginning when I said their story had a lot of holes and they needed to polish their rough draft, I was told the following:
Seems most of the common sense was to be found somewhere else. As fanwarrior notes in #221, TWM has dropped the ball, made a mess, and now is mucking up the dates of the articles in a way that seems they’re trying to deliberately obfuscate their own missteps.
Meanwhile, Andre Fisher needs to get some real help:
English-language profanity in a courtroom (or anywhere in Korea) earns you no brownie points, my friends, because THIS is what happens:
9:45 pm on August 26th, 2011 228
ChickenHead 190 says Andre get educated. That should include mathematics, science, and the Korean language.
10:09 pm on August 26th, 2011 229
Observations:
1. This boy is awful hard to help. It reinforces my opinion that he needs a long time out coupled with resources to guide his life in the correct direction.
Even if he is completely innocent, this is the WRONG way of dealing with it… and this is the kind of lesson that good parents naturally transfer to their children by example… especially in a “law enforcement family”.
What kind of dumbazz shows ANY form of disrespect in a court?
His first prison reading assignment should be something like: 101 Tips For Graduates: A Code of Conduct for Success and Happiness in Your Professional Life (Susan Moram).
2. It seems Korean judges, like American judges, know when they are being bullshyted… and they don’t like it. Be it blame-diverting stories of apparently imaginary friends to bold proclamations of no criminal record (in selected cities only), judges know when an amateur is trying to manipulate their opinion… and they resent it.
3. This has gone far enough. An appeal to Korea’s supreme court will fail. Know that now. But it will cost the military budget a lot of money to see it through. This means something broken will not be fixed or something necessary will not be bought or someone deserving will not be fully taken care of. This means a real soldier may go to war without the best chance of survival. It would be far better for Andre Fisher to be shanked in the shower to put an end to this all than to lose one selfless soldier on the battlefield.
4. Three Wise Monkeys has become a clusterfunk. They came to my attention through their ATEK coverage which seemed to draw reasonable conclusion from well-researched facts. They have not done the same with the Andre Fisher case and, instead of clearly reporting on their own missteps to regain credibility, they really have obfuscated the layout of their website, cancelled all discussion, and tried to keep themselves relevant by boasting of contacts with Andre’s attorney and a constant presence at Andre’s legal proceedings… but really aren’t reporting anything.
Professional journalists and opinion peddlers get it wrong sometimes… bloggers have even lower standards and expectations. The difference between success and failure is the ability to step back and be honest with oneself… which trickles down to the readers.
5. Kushibo, you have been rightly critical of this situation from the beginning. If you were to give Andre Fisher two pieces of advice right now… one short-term and one long-term… what would they be?
11:35 pm on August 26th, 2011 230
Chickenhead here is my two cents on it. Fisher could learn a lot by following the example of John Humphreys of Shinchon Stabbing fame:
http://rokdrop.com/2007/04/15/you-can-expect-a-fair-trail-in-korea-sort-of/#comment-388457
He got sacrificed to South Korean public opinion by being convicted of attempted murder though he admits it was a mistake to pull out the knife like he did to defend himself. Instead of dwelling on what happened he worked to improve himself in prison. He learned a lot of Korean and worked on his degree in MicroBiology and BioChemistry. I have a lot of respect for John Humphreys.
Andre Fisher on the other hand seems to be the exact opposite judging by the trial and then his actions after the appeal of cursing and pushing people. The best thing Fisher can do is be the perfect inmate in prison in order to get released early for good behavior. The fear of anyone harming him in prison is far fetched. The Korean foreigner prison is run professionally and the SOFA prisoners are treated very well. This is not San Quintin. I have been there myself:
http://rokdrop.com/2009/06/30/cheonan-prison-to-become-new-foreigner-only-prison-in-korea/
Fisher by being a model inmate and working on his education may be able to make a better case for getting a general discharge. He should really focus on getting a general discharge because this discharge is often listed as General Under Honorable Conditions. When civilian employers see that they think it is a Honorable Discharge since they don’t know the difference. This discharge however could mean he will lose GI Bill benefits but overall this is the best he expect in his situation. If he gets an Other Than Honorable Discharge he is screwed. In my experience this what I usually see Soldiers incarcerated in civilian prisons get. Maybe a JAG officer reading this can provide more details.
The family should contact the 2ID JAG office to discuss the discharge option with them for more info. I wonder if they have talked to the 4th Chem commander yet? The family expressing their concern to his chain of command for a general discharge may sway them.
Anyway I hope when Fisher gets out of prison I can say I have a lot of respect for him like I did John Humphreys, but right now judging by what I have seen so far I’m not hopeful. However, maybe Fisher will prove me wrong.
12:15 am on August 27th, 2011 231
GI Korea wrote:
Are you sure he remains assigned to 2ID while incarcerated at Cheonan? I was under the impression that he is administratively assigned to an MP unit at Camp Humphreys.
If he is no longer assigned to 2ID, I doubt the 2ID JAG or 4th Chem Co will want to deal with matters related to Andre. And if it’s a matter of being nice and helping out when they really don’t have to help – I seriously doubt they will after the way the family has badmouthed them. I’m sure several soldiers in the unit have kept up with the blogs and facebook posts – and kept the commander and 1SG well informed of what’s been said.
4:56 am on August 27th, 2011 232
ChickenHead wrote:
Short term advice: In court and in prison, be respectful, contrite, and Vulcan. Only then will you possibly win on appeal or in an amnesty.
For the long term, I would print out your comment #190, laminate it, and hand it to him and tell him to read it every day. He needs to get over this (even on the off chance that he really is innocent of the taxi robbery, because he needs to realize his other bad acts made him look guilty), needs to read and educate himself. I’ll reprint the kernel of what you wrote above, which is very close to what I’ve been thinking myself:
In fact, if he can really do all these things, he might be better off if he doesn’t win on appeal or get amnesty.
Does the University of Maryland have enough online courses that he could finish at least an A.A.? And speaking of AA, does the Korean foreigners prison have alcohol cessation programs?
5:14 am on August 27th, 2011 233
kushibo asked:
As of 2005, those detained in the SOFA section of the Seoul Detention House (서울 구치소) in Ui-wang city (의왕시) did not have internet access. They had a system through which you could send them the equivalent of an email though. A person would send the prisoner an email through a messaging system at the prison’s website, and the prisoner would receive a hardcopy of the message – after it was screened by prison officials. The entire messaging system website was in Korean though (no option for English), so you pretty much had to have a Korean speaker to help you send a message if you didn’t speak Korean.
The only option for the prisoner to correspond was by written letter.
7:37 am on August 27th, 2011 234
Guitard when I took command in 2ID I inherited a guy that was incarcerated at Cheonan and he was still on my books. I had to go down there a see him every month at the prison.
Fisher’s commander is probably not pleased with being bad mouthed by the family but I doubt he would be unprofessional enough to not talk with them; the same with the 2ID JAG office.
8:17 am on August 27th, 2011 235
If he was still assigned to your unit – how did you refill the position to which he was assigned? In other words – if you’re authorized one 15B10, and the 15B10 you have assigned to your unit is in prison for two years, how do you get a backfill when you are still carrying the guy as being assigned to your unit?
I’m sure there must be a way around it – I’m just curious what it is.
You had to travel from 2ID to Cheonan and back every month? I’m surprised that as a commander you couldn’t send someone in your place because that’s an all day trip.
5:36 am on August 29th, 2011 236
Guitard, my CSM was able to get another E5 in to fill his spot but the guy was still on my books. With good behavior and a reduction in sentence he ended up only doing a year in Cheonan and then went to Camp Humphreys to do time for crimes he received UCMJ for. When he went to Humphreys that is when I got him off my books because they shipped him state side since he received a 3 year sentence.
My battalion commander had me going down there to see him every month because him and his family were making all these complaints to IG and then eventually even a Congressman that the unit didn’t care about him and that he was being abused at Cheonan. It was all a bunch of BS because Cheonan is a first class facility. He even ended up telling me that he preferred Cheonan over the Camp Humphreys confinement facility.
5:38 am on August 29th, 2011 237
I don’t know everyone has seen this yet, but 3WM has another posting up about Fisher’s appeal:
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/08/29/the-convoluted-case-of-pvt-andre-fisher/
Apparently Fisher even had the cab driver’s money clip in his possession when arrested. 3WM also says there is some previously unknown forensic evidence that he is trying to get details on.
7:35 am on August 29th, 2011 238
Yeah I dunno about 3WM. They left me with a rather sour taste in my mouth, and the back-tracking at this point does little to restore my interest in them.
Especially deleting the post that where they backed him because they realize how bad it makes them look.
8:38 am on August 29th, 2011 239
3WM seems like they are trying to get on the right path.
To fully regain credibility, they should keep their old postings with additional notes explaining where they went wrong and why… with a firm commitment to ask tougher questions of those making emotional pleas.
As I understand 3WM’s recent post, at the appeal hearing, the evidence was presented that “Fisher “Did possess a money clip” with the cash “laid in order” as the taxi driver had described it”.
Does this mean the family’s repeated statement that he didn’t have the money on him was yet another fib?
So… the family isn’t interested in finding video evidence that would clear him if he was innocent… the robber in the video had the same type and same color clothes… Andre had the taxi driver’s money clip and the money when arrested.
I’m leaning towards thinking that he is guilty as charged… oops… leaned too far… and now I have fallen in.
Somebody at USFK missed the boat by ever letting this even become an issue. Andre Fisher’s shady family, dimwitted supporters, activist groupies, and media stooges, could have been shut down in minutes with the release of the facts as they have been known since late 2010.
What the hell is wrong with all these people?
And, in almost more interesting news…
Did you all see the REAL story here?
It was the GI that came in BEFORE Andre.
“The case was an appeal of a robbery and assault involving the soldier, a cab, its driver and a knife. The soldier had stabbed the driver “numerous” times in the process of the robbery.”
Whoa! Was this recent?
6:55 am on September 3rd, 2011 240
Here is another update from 3WM where they visit Fisher in prison and disclose that Fisher is going to appeal to the Supreme Court:
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/09/01/pvt-fisher-to-take-case-to-supreme-court-of-korea/
8:08 am on September 4th, 2011 241
This dude is a POS and deserved his sentenced. It is a shame that it has gotten this big and gotten this much attention even after his lies were found out to be just that, lies. His family is delusional and really needs to let it go and accept the fact their son made some POS mistakes and has to pay for it. Nobody did anything wrong except POS Fisher.
9:56 am on September 4th, 2011 242
It looks like those who says this is over, was wrong. This is just a beginning. They’re getting the US government involved, to pressure the Korean government, to free this guy.
I’m betting he’ll be out in few weeks. Forget about Koreans getting any justice.
Look at one of the comments.
jangsalgida Says:
September 4th, 2011 at 1:10 am
“Fisher can rot in jail during his time, how dare he, his family, and friends seek U.S. government support under false pretenses”
9:58 am on September 4th, 2011 243
Petty theft and resisting arrest…
10:06 am on September 4th, 2011 244
Petty theft? You mean robbery using physical assault.
7:57 pm on September 6th, 2011 245
Like some kind of racial cliche,
Andre smashed, fought, and robbed helpless prey.
But if he’s rude in the tank,
someone’ll just take a shank
and make a nice Fisher fillet.
Well.
While a few people here posted some good advice, Andre’s family and supporters did not pursue it. Instead, Andre wants to fight this to the Supreme Court.
He is not ready to be in society.
Prediction…
He will do his time.
He will not learn anything or become a better person. He will be out of the military with no job, no skills, and the same I’m So Stupid I Curse In Court attitude.
When he can no longer sponge off of his dysfunctional family, he will be back in jail for crime just as stupid as what he is in jail for now.
Oh, well.
I grasped at the thought there was hope. The naysayers were right.
Now it is just time to make fun of it all.
8:27 pm on September 6th, 2011 246
@CH 245 – True that!
8:52 pm on September 6th, 2011 247
There once was a fisherman named Andre
Whose crime was caught on display
Off to prison he went
While we pay for his rent
And there he’ll have steak three times a day.
9:25 am on September 7th, 2011 248
Andre and friends are now grieving.
But with life-lessons, he will be leaving.
In court, give less lip,
ditch the victim’s money clip,
and don’t wear bright orange when you’re thieving.
10:10 am on September 7th, 2011 249
JJ #247, He’ll get steak all right, tube steak ala back door.
12:18 pm on September 7th, 2011 250
I think you’re confusing the ROK with the USA.
Societal acceptance and even mockery of repeated sexual assault in prison is an American thing, not a Korean thing.
1:22 pm on September 7th, 2011 251
Korean prisons are much more humane than American prisons.
3:17 pm on September 7th, 2011 252
#248
It’s as clear as night and day
I was wearing orange and black that day
How could it be
They thought it was me
I tell you it was Jarrod Jeff-er-ray.
4:04 pm on September 7th, 2011 253
#208
“If the family wanted to show that they are trying to do the right thing, the facebook page, other support sites, or news interviews would not continue to paint Korea and the US military as the enemy and they would not support (or facebook Like) calls to boycott Korea, send SEALs teams to attempt a “rescue”, and call for rallies against the embassies in DC or NY.”
ARE THEY out of THEIR MINDS?
4:10 pm on September 7th, 2011 254
251 How in the world would you know?
15 minutes of Googling won’t do….
4:43 pm on September 7th, 2011 255
Oh man, I used “day” twice.
5:37 pm on September 7th, 2011 256
#254, I don’t have to google anything. We all know what the conditions are like in the US prisons.
8:16 pm on September 7th, 2011 257
Andre will do very well.
And his stay in the clink will be swell.
During this lucky time,
his acts won’t be crime,
as they ended Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell.
9:50 pm on September 7th, 2011 258
From the 2nd Infantry Division’s spokeswoman. http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/korea/south-korean-court-upholds-sentences-of-2-soldiers-in-taxi-cab-beatings-1.154330
“We stand by the ROK (Republic of Korea) Court’s decision,” 2nd Infantry Division spokeswoman Master Sgt. Reeba Critser said in a statement. “This type of behavior is absolutely not in keeping with the values for which U.S. soldiers stand.”
Posted the same on 3WM. They hate me over there.
10:11 pm on September 7th, 2011 259
These fellas sure are in denial
trying to convince people of an unjust trial
Dismissing all the truths
uncovered by the ROKDrop sleuths,
they’ll keep praying till it’s out of style.
12:47 am on September 8th, 2011 260
There once was a man named Fisher
who didn’t have any well-wisher.
But rehabilitation
through nightly penetration
changed him from a thug to a swisher.
1:23 am on September 8th, 2011 261
You watched a lot of Hollywood movies and HBO productions (Oz) about prison life in Korea, have ya?
5:10 am on September 8th, 2011 262
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/08/29/the-convoluted-case-of-pvt-andre-fisher/comment-page-1/#comment-133381
Admins at 3WM say some interesting things about their investigation. I don’t know what exactly they could be discovering and whether or not they really are game-changers but these guys are one of the few who are trying to dig deep into this other than ROKDrop.
Oh, and when I said 3WM hates me, I meant their commenters, not the site owners.
5:37 am on September 8th, 2011 263
They’re only digging in to it hard now because they got caught with their pants around their ankles.
7:20 am on September 8th, 2011 264
I’m definitely not going to change my stance until I see any evidence. And it better be clear cut evidence and not a scenario builder of what they think is going on based on shoddy evidence. Am I expecting a game changer at this point? No, but who knows. They are at least trying to get official documents. I’m not sure I’d accept the testimony of a friend of Andre’s unless it was accepted into the court’s records. Up until now, the credibility of the friends and family are shot.
This makes it fun though no? At this point our team is up 3 and they have the bases loaded. It’s possible they could hit a grand slam against Mo but it’s highly unlikely.
7:51 am on September 8th, 2011 265
Here is something to ponder…
Andre claimed that he met an “English teacher from Seoul” named Jarrod Jeffry who took off running when the cops came.
So two black guys who happen to be wearing orange hoodies meet, one robs a taxi and runs away, and the other guy gets caught holding the bag.
Maybe.
But, if anyone cares to look at it all honestly, for Andre Fisher to be a great guy in the wrong place who was falsely accused, there must be many coincidences, misunderstandings, and unnatural behaviors and events.
If the known facts are considered, it doesn’t take any extreme or unusual reasoning to conclude he is a dirtbag.
This does not even consider that his family has lied continuously and ignored any avenue which could show his innocence… probably since it could also show his guilt.
Face it.
He wasn’t an innocent victim. He isn’t covering for anyone.
He is a serial criminal and a constant liar.
As hindsight gets closer to 20/20, it is growing increasingly amazing that anybody could believe much of what was said or give him any benefit of the doubt.
8:06 am on September 8th, 2011 266
I agree, again, it’d have to be a grand slam against Mo. Possible? Yes. Probable? Not by a long shot. And even if say some guy named Jarrod Jeffry was the one who did it, this makes him an accessory to the crime which makes him legally guilty anyway. Lawyers please correct me if I’m wrong.
I can no longer trust anything that Andre says given his pattern of misinformation. However, if this “witness” has new testimony, I’d like to at least hear it. If this witness is a friend however, I’m going to discard it like month old milk.
CH, please continue with the limericks though. I must say they are a guilty pleasure.
8:39 am on September 8th, 2011 267
“CH, please continue with the limericks though. I must say they are a guilty pleasure.”
Andre was cursing and sobbin’
and the vein in his temple was throbbin’.
Now he’s in the can
’cause just like Batman
He can’t go downtown without Robin’.
9:48 am on September 8th, 2011 268
#254
There’s no rapes happening in Korean jails. At least not that I know of. On top of that, the special foreigner only jail Fisher is (or will going to be in) in is quite nice as a jail. Own room. TV/books allowed. Food ingredients brought by US army for the inmates to cook etc.
10:16 am on September 8th, 2011 269
I’m at the end of my rope
’cause car-keying Andre’s dope.
And though some people rail
there’s no rape in jail,
we are all still entitled to hope.
11:01 am on September 8th, 2011 270
Wishing rape on anyone isn’t funny
Plus he’s too big to be anyone’s honey
But if he likes it oh well
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell
Heck, he could even make some money.
4:09 pm on September 8th, 2011 271
@258 – I saw that story in the paper today. Dunno if anyone else caught it, but the other guy from 25th Trans sentenced in Suwon has an administrative discharge under “other than honorable conditions” (OTH) waiting for him once he’s done with Korean jail. Quite a few people tried to give Fisher some good advice to possibly avoid the same outcome, but seeing how he’s behaved like an a$$ every time he’s been in court, shown absolutely no remorse, humility or contrition, and continues to spin his crazy story, I would imagine he’s got the same thing waiting for him as well. Dude probably doesn’t realize it now (or doesn’t care now), but once he’s all done with his time and the Army, he’ll find out very quickly that the OTH is pretty much the kiss of death for getting any kind-of decent civilian employment or gaining access to many VA and government benefits. Good luck with the rest of your life after that, moron…
5:23 pm on September 8th, 2011 272
Still no go. Here’s my third attempt to post this comment:
On ROK Drop the fabulous blog,
ChickenHead croaks like a frog.
Doesn’t bark like a poodle,
He’s limp as a noodle,
And can’t rock a noodle,
Cuz his walnuts are lost in the fog.
6:01 pm on September 8th, 2011 273
Glans wrote:
Sorry Glans – but this is a Limerick FAIL.
Should be five lines rhyming AABBA; and syllables per line: 8,8,5,6,8 respectively.
6:26 pm on September 8th, 2011 274
Is that right? 8,8,5,6,8? I’ve been doing it wrong all this time.
I should just stick to regular comments.
7:02 pm on September 8th, 2011 275
Guitard the limerick cop
Thought progress was his to stop.
I claim poetic license in full
By goring his ox and his bull.
Don’t mire my verse in your slop,
Cuz I’m headed right over the top.
7:24 pm on September 8th, 2011 276
While I have suspected it for some time now, we now have confirmation that Glans is, in fact, a Vogon.
7:32 pm on September 8th, 2011 277
Andre didn’t take it too well.
Demanding freedom from all he could tell.
But now with Glans on the outside,
writing poetry worse than genocide,
he will be begging to stay in his cell.
8:14 pm on September 8th, 2011 278
Douglas Adams is never dead,
Working always through ChickenHead.
Eternally blest
They rise in the West,
Those two are the best,
They pass every test.
Tell us what the great Vogons said!
10:59 pm on September 8th, 2011 279
A tribute poem for you
is really the least I can do.
It’s not the norm
but this poetry form
is not limerick but Glans-style haiku.
…oh, and Andre’s a prison biitch, too.
8:08 pm on September 11th, 2011 280
Tom: There’s no “getting the US government involved now.” The government was already involved. The US Army was involved, per the requirements of the Status of Forces Agreement. Furthermore, the uS Embassy, the US Army, and the US Congress have zero sway in a Korean criminal court. The US Army, though, does have obligations to its personnel who are detained by the Korean authorities and they have been meeting that obligation with someone who is, basically, telling all and sundry that they are not.
5:10 am on September 12th, 2011 281
Foreigners get breaks from Korean police and judge all the time. Here’s another example. Two convicted Iranian rapists of a mentally retarded Korean girl, gets their sentences reduced because….well.. they were foreigners. WOW, just wow. No justice for Koreans, foreigners walk free because they get special better treatment.
재판부는
“다만 피고인들이 취업을 위해 한국에 온 외국인 노동자들로 별다른 전과가 없는 점과
범행동기.결과 등을 참작해 각각 징역 1년6월에 처한다”고 덧붙였다.
A씨 등은 지난해 5월 산업연수생으로 입국했으나
회사를 무단이탈해 불법체류자가 된 뒤 같은 해
11월 인천 시내 길가에서 만난 정신장애여성(19)에게 “돈을 주겠다”고 유인해 성폭행한 혐의로 구속기소됐다.
(인천/연합뉴스)
http://www.hani.co.kr/section-005100009/2005/05/005100009200505181019346.html
5:22 am on September 12th, 2011 282
A perfect example of myopia based on racial prejudice.
How many times over the years has the topic of Korea’s horribly weak sentences for sex crimes come up? How many examples have we seen in the press? Like the handicapped girl who was passed around her own family only to have the judge issue suspended sentences and give the girl back to the family…
Tom has viewed all that as a long-time reader of this blog and the Korean news, but he hasn’t seen it. Blinded by race…
6:20 am on September 12th, 2011 283
#282, how many times do you see Korean prisoners get to enjoy separate luxury benefit prisons at the expense of Korean tax payers, USInKorea?
7:50 am on September 12th, 2011 284
Another common tactic – fire a wild shot to attack. Get called out on the nonsense of it. Fall back to something else.
How many times do you see Korean soldiers defending the American way of life?
The SOFA is part of the price of doing business – which is maintaing SK’s national security in the face of North Korea – for GI criminals. (SK also moved all foreign prisoners into a special prison for its own reasons. If you have a problem with that, complain about it to the Korean government.)
The point is, however, that you exposed your lack of understanding due to racial bias again — on a topic anyone familiar with Korea over a period of years will readily recognize….
8:39 am on September 12th, 2011 285
“SK also moved all foreign prisoners into a special prison for its own reasons. If you have a problem with that, complain about it to the Korean government.”
That is right, Korea has gone very easy on American criminals who are found guilty. Just like in the Burger King case, Korea usually let American criminals off the hook. Yet Americans still complain that they are being unfairly treated, which is bull $hit. How about foreigner criminals eat rice, water, and kimchi, just like the rest of Korean criminals? How about that, isn’t that more of an equal treatment?
4:37 am on September 13th, 2011 286
Tom driveled:
Name one person at this blog who complains and says Americans are unfairly treated in the Korean prison system.
6:34 am on September 13th, 2011 287
“Name one person at this blog who complains and says Americans are unfairly treated in the Korean prison system.”
Fisher, his family and his thousands of ESL teacher supporters in Korea. I would wager he will never serve out his full 2 year sentence.
11:48 am on September 13th, 2011 288
Andre’s family has not made a peep.
And there is no more defense of the creep.
But it sucks to the max
for those who pay tax.
So let us just put him to sleep.
7:23 pm on September 13th, 2011 289
Tom driveled:
You conveniently overlooked the “at this blog” part of my message.
Once again – you are a FAIL.
7:37 pm on September 13th, 2011 290
Guitard wrote:
Do the Three Wise Monkeys count?
12:36 am on September 14th, 2011 291
This is what I love about Tom on this issue:
To makes easy predictions that stand a very good chance to come true — but by doing still exposes his (wilfull) ignorance of how things work in Korea just to play the race card.
Since Koreans convicted of similar crimes almost suredly wouldn’t serve the full 2 years, it is highly likely the non-Korean won’t either…
Tom also predicted the non-Korean would probably walk from when the previous appeal verdict was handed down, and if it had been, he’d been here thumping his chest saying it proved special treatment for the big noses — when such a reduction of sentence is common place in Korea.
One day, his safe predictions on this case will pan out, and he’ll be running around trying to tell anybody who doesn’t know better it is proof he knows what he’s talking about…..
12:42 am on September 14th, 2011 292
What was the verdict in the BK case? What are sentences in similar cases involving a Korean convict?
Show me some examples of Americans getting off the hook. Since it is usual, you should be able to rattle off a few examples from your years of knowlege on the subject…
Show me where Korean convicts get nothing but rice, kimchi, and water.
Since Tom can’t seem to get correct what others write in threads or in posts on this site — I have a new rule for him:
Don’t trust but verify….
4:35 am on September 14th, 2011 293
Here’s the description of Korean prison for foreigners only which the thousands of ESL teachers in Korea. This is the same prison that they claim Fisher will be killed in.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20100420-211362.html
It would be far better if Fisher DOES NOT serve out his 2 years (not that he will). Because I don’t want him enjoying a little R&R at the expense of Korean tax payers.
Korea basically has two criminal justice systems – one for Koreans, and one for foreigners whose rights are overprotected and their violations often mitigated and punishment are far more lighter than what ordinary Koreans are dealt with.
This is something ESL expat crowd will never admit to. Why is that?
4:54 am on September 14th, 2011 294
Foreigners accused of crime to receive special protection that Korean accused don’t get.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/64634/foreigners-accused-of-crimes-to-receive-greater-protection/#disqus_thread
Gee looks like all the whinings on the Korea related blogs and organized demonstrations in front of Korean embassies is beginning to take an effect – just as I said it would.
I think it would be far better if Korea just deport Western foreign criminals instead of prosecuting them – to avoid all the whinings and avoiding to give them special treatments, including free R&R at Cheonan, with Korean tax payer’s money.
10:01 am on September 14th, 2011 295
Tom expressed his greatest fear
that Andre would be out in a year.
But his freedom is frail
and he will be back in jail
’cause dipshyt crime is his only career.
2:08 pm on September 14th, 2011 296
Maybe Andre will accept
Christ his lord and savior.
He’ll then be more adept,
And out for good behavior.
3:41 pm on September 14th, 2011 297
293 — Again, I wonder if Tom actually reads the links he provides or just skims them or is his bigotry really so high that it blinds him as he reads:
Reassigning cops who make racist statements against the accused…..Sounds like a good idea to me.
Trying to prevent cops from using force or coercive techniques to compel statements…..
The article also mentions getting them to notify the consulate or embassy…
So, the article is about a measure to influence Korean cops to follow Korean and international law.
– A question for the legal experts in Korea — Does Korea have Miranda warnings for Korean suspects?
3:48 pm on September 14th, 2011 298
#297, why don’t the same law apply to Koreans, USinKorea? Why just foreigners?
And what about the special prisons just for foreigners that some of your fellow Americans demonstrating outside of Korean embassies are falsely saying is cruel?
Answer me that, will you?
3:59 pm on September 14th, 2011 299
Here’s what USinKorea has conveniently left out. Oh yeah sounds really fair.
———
Unlike when Korean suspects file such a request, where an investigative means committee is formed and makes a decision on the detectives being re-assigned, for foreign affairs detectives there will be automatic re-assignment without a committee or reason given.
4:56 pm on September 14th, 2011 300
Tom, you bring your race into play through your bigotry.
I’m still waiting for your links to material that show the conditions in contemporary Korean prisons.
Next, the same laws do apply to Koreans. (I’m not sure about Miranda.)
If Korean cops are still using illegal means against Korean suspects, that is something Korean civil rights groups should fight against — and they do. I know there are groups that do that. However, I’m not sure how much illegal coercive tactics are used these days against Korean suspects. My info on things like that comes from the authoritarian government days. (From which I suspect much of Tom’s knowledge (what little there is) also stems…)
The article is about punishing Korean cops who violate Korean laws…
Reassigning cops without a review isn’t fair. We’ll have to see how this change actually plays out.
As for the foreigners-only prison, complain to the Korean government. They set it up. No foreign government or bloggers forced them to.
5:25 pm on September 14th, 2011 301
“As for the foreigners-only prison, complain to the Korean government. They set it up. No foreign government or bloggers forced them to.”
And also notice, no complaints of unfair treatment of foreigners here in this case. If you guys really care about equal justice for all, you’d be speaking up against this reverse discrimination against Koreans, as well, instead of always focusing on supporting people like Fisher – only because they are Americans.
5:30 pm on September 14th, 2011 302
“Reassigning cops without a review isn’t fair. We’ll have to see how this change actually plays out.”
Thanks to all the incessant complaints about Korean police arresting American law breakers who use this as their defense to gain sympathy from their compatriots, the weak Korean government is now putting in place two justice systems – one for Koreans, and another one for foreigners where they are treated very leniently. All this because the Korean government is afraid of bad international publicity which could be bad for business.
5:48 pm on September 14th, 2011 303
Tom, where are the other examples of the incessant complaints pressuring the Korean government? What were the complaints about?
I can think of some in the past back when Korean civic groups were complaining about the same thing – and Korean prison abuses were cleaned up – as they should have been.
You, however, are blowing the Fisher case up to mean everything, as is typical of you.
6:42 pm on September 14th, 2011 304
USInKorea, I would give you what you want and other information but you will delete my posts anyway (at least the ones that makes you look bad). So there’s no point for me to waste my time.
9:25 pm on September 14th, 2011 305
How convenient…
9:28 pm on September 14th, 2011 306
I should have noted, the examples of governments and foreign press putting pressure on South Korea to change its penal system and civil rights laws occurred during the authoritarian period in which Korea civil rights groups (with leaders like future president Kim Dae-Jung) were fighting for the same kind of changes…
Which is a far cry from the contemporary environment — even with what Fisher’s family managed to get in their local press (to the detriment of his case).
9:40 pm on September 14th, 2011 307
Korea does have the Miranda Rule for all suspects.
10:04 pm on September 14th, 2011 308
I’m sure Mr Fisher’s cellie will introduce him to the Korean PENILE system.
11:44 pm on September 14th, 2011 309
Tom – if you were to actually poll most of the posters here, I think you would find that they would have no problem going along with:
1) If they really are guilty and convicted fairly (i.e. done something bad and/or stupid enough to get time in a Korean clink), then throw them into genpop with the rest of the convicts.
2) Let them eat what everyone else is eating – they’re not supposed to be in a hotel, but serving time in prison.
3) Ensure access to their own country’s officials (embassy, consul, military attache, etc.) is reasonably available.
I certainly have no problem with this and also remember when the first article on the Cheonan foreigner’s prison came out in S&S a few years ago. I couldn’t believe that the Korean people wanted to shell out all the tax money just to take ‘special care’ of prisoners, but then again, the current crop vying for votes is trying to out-do each other on who can come up with the most welfare and needless social programs…so…good luck with that when Korea’s budget deficit is in the crapper like ours…
5:29 am on September 15th, 2011 310
Has anyone else found it ironic that someone who argues so strongly against multiculturalism in Korea is actually contributing to the multiculturalism of another country?
1:15 am on September 19th, 2011 311
If Andre talks any smack,
his cellmate will get on his back.
Then he’ll break nature’s laws,
and like Santa Claus,
he’ll leave with an empty sack.
6:29 am on September 19th, 2011 312
Wow, this is still going strong huh? Since it is, I’ll add a new post from the Facebook support page:
Jill Fisher
Today, I was reading a post from one of Andre’s battle buddies in Korea…she is leaving Korea and was disheartened that she could not say good bye; however, she also told a story of “sneaking” Andre and another battle buddie off base to get tatted when they were not supposed to do so…she said Andre was so afraid he would get caught sneaking off base…how can a person who was afraid to sneak out have the fortitude to actually rob another, it just does not make sense to me?!?!
10:17 am on September 19th, 2011 313
Andre was one crafty dude
who snuck out to get a tattoo.
But he was so afraid,
the point can be made,
he just didn’t “have the fortitude…
…to rob another”, or key a car, or fight the policemen, or tell the court workers to quit touchin’ him, or kick the windows out of a police car, or tell the judge it was bullshyt, or break up a police station, or punch a taxi driver, or make up stories about nonexistent military member or imaginary English teachers.
Etc.
3:45 pm on September 19th, 2011 314
It’s pretty simple how someone could be afraid to sneak off base. First, if that person is restricted to the base, he will be apprehended by the military authorities if he (a) is stupid enough to enter the base through the entry gates as there is a 100% identification card check, or (b) is caught in the act of coming over the base fence. For those who do not know, all–as in every single one of them–tattoo parlors in South Korea are off-limits to US military personnel.
Seriously, every single thing that’s brought up about this individual makes him look less and less like a responsible soldier and more and more like a criminal who is stunned that he’s no longer getting away with his crimes.
To those who like to make disgusting jokes about prison rape, well, you’re uninformed about the situation in Korea prisons. That’s pretty much an unknown concept for South Korea’s detention facilities as it is for US military confinement facilities. Furthermore, Fisher is incarcerated in an individual cell.
4:20 pm on September 19th, 2011 315
By the way, I do enjoy limericks. And I learned something about them perusing this thread today. Somehow, over the years, I’ve managed to miss the meter requirements for that particular poem.
Anyone care to try writing a haiku instead of a limerick about Fisher?
7:42 pm on September 19th, 2011 316
andre fisher’s cell
south korean confinement
no chance for sweet love
5:35 am on September 20th, 2011 317
I wonder if Fisher had to sneak off post because he was restricted to base after receiving an Article 15?
Like mentioned earlier receiving a tattoo off post is against military regulations in Korea. So yet another act of indiscipline from Fisher.
6:22 am on September 20th, 2011 318
#317. That’s what I was thinking. Was he was sneaking off base because he had to? Otherwise, why not just wait the next day to get tats. While getting a tattoo is forbidden, going out isn’t unless you were restricted.
Also, how the heck does he get back in? When I was visiting an embassy friend of mine who lived in Yongsan Garrison, I stayed with him for 2 weeks. I was checked every time I came back in. Sure, some of those walls looked climbable but I think each station was, uh, stationed.
6:31 am on September 20th, 2011 319
Why is coloring inside the lines so difficult for some people? Well, actually, it is for all of us. But American and South Korean society (and laws) allow some flexibility there…
You just have to use your own crayons and stay on your own paper. Andre Fisher was coloring with someone else’s crayons on still another person’s paper…
It’s as simple as that…
6:42 am on September 20th, 2011 320
John in NY wrote:
Even though the embassy housing area is located on Yongsan Army Garrison (trivia point: the only US embassy housing area in the whole world that is located on a military base), it has its own security separate from the base security. So it essentially has a double layer of security and the embassy housing area’s security is much stricter than the base’s security.
So comparing that to the security at a base in Area 1 is not a good comparison.
9:15 am on September 20th, 2011 321
Thanks Guitard for the info. I don’t know the layout well enough to say which exits I tried entering and exiting from but each one I tried entering from required a check on my id. But then again, I did have my girlfriend drive in to pick me up. I only had to tell the security people that she was coming to get me. When she got to the gates, they would call and I’d ask them to let her through. She came right to the doorstep to pick me up.
11:50 am on September 20th, 2011 322
I love how everyone is so concerned with Andre and the limericks are really interesting and funny, but the reality of the situation is not.
I would like to clear up some misinformation.
1. The family was never contacted by the military command or the embassy on his arrest or conviction. They tried to contact both and never received any information until after the first appeal. They finally received a letter from the US military command detailing the arrests.
2. The family was unaware of the second conviction in Korea.
3. The lawyer was not paid for by the US military until after his conviction, as per his lawyer. During his first trial he was defended by a public defender. As in the United States public defenders do a great job in defending their clients when they are not getting paid.
The reality of the situation is that a young man is in jail for the next 2 years of his life and you guys joke about him getting killed and raped in prison. You call him and his family a bunch a dirtbags and shytbags but do not know who he is or they are. John from NY you are a coward and hide behind your words, all you do is print things from the facebook page and put your spin on it. Jill is his sister and is hurting because her brother is in a foreign prison and cannot see him or talk to him. She writes things from the heart and is trying to relieve the feelings of hurt by talking about it and she does not need you to reprint them so everyone else could bash what she says. So it would be appreciated that you identify yourself or take yourself off
I ask everyone in this forum: What would you do in this situation?
The family may have done or said somethings that may have been wrong but they were uninformed about the situation because they were never contacted by anyone with information. They tried to fight for their son and brother as anyone would have.
Andre is no angel in this situation and he has done things that he needs to pay for, but the fact remains he did not rob the cab driver. I believe someone did rob the driver and he is covering up for that individual because that is the person who he is. I on the other hand would never go down for someone else I would rat the person out in a heartbeat but that is not him.
*Damage to the police car: admitted, fined and paid for.
*Damage to a car: admitted, fined and paid for.
*Damage to the police station: admitted, fined and paid for.
This forum condemns his behavior in court, during the first appeal he was remorseful but when you are sentenced to 2 years for a robbery you did not commit, I ask you how would you behave?
The fact remains he was sentenced to 2 years for simple robbery. The assault charge was dropped and the video evidence was thrown as inconclusive, the only evidence was the cab drivers statement that he folded his money the same way as Andre’s. The money amount was not the same either $14 to $88. You can draw your own conclusions and I’m sure you will.
For the rest of you your limericks may be funny to the forum but they are hurtful to the family, so I would appreciate it if they were not so vulgar and degrading.
I know this forum will rip this apart but for the family’s sake can you please STOP!!!
2:46 pm on September 20th, 2011 323
Dan wrote:
Actually, the discussion on this subject had all but stopped.
So for the family’s sake, how about you STFU and just drop it?
Or do you really think it’s smarter to rake up all the BS and lies again and rekindle the discussion?
2:59 pm on September 20th, 2011 324
Dan,
Here is the progression of this story.
1. There was widespread support for Andre… including advice on how to show his innocence… which was suspiciously ignored by his supporters.
2. As more omitted facts came out and more misrepresentations were revealed, the less support he got and the more suspicions were raised.
3. ALL of the suspicions and bad rumors were completely confirmed… despite denials and continued misrepresentations from his supporters.
4. He was justifiably condemned for all actions EXCEPT robbing the cab which everybody felt was inconclusive.
5. It was slowly revealed that his clothes matched the video, his “witnesses” didn’t exist, and he had the taxi driver’s money clip… indicating that maybe he DID rob the taxi driver. His support here was at an all-time low.
6. It was accepted that, even disregarding the possible robbery, his confirmed pattern of actions indicated he was a career scumbag. This long-term pattern of serious misbehavior can’t be easily explained away.
7. It was accepted that he was justly punished… but that it shouldn’t be a life sentence… and it was necessary to become a better person to succeed in his future… with learning skill, with minimizing the impact of his military discharge, with dealing with the Korean legal system, etc. There was the spark of a great discussion on how he could do that… as there are a lot of people here with vast knowledge, experience, and connections.
8. His supporters made NO effort to pursue any willing assistance available here and continued to lie and misrepresent while continuing to claim the military did nothing.
9. The whole deal went from tragedy to farce… and will be treated accordingly (by me, at least) until somebody shows that Andre, and his family, sincerely want to get their shyt together.
So, Dan… what do you expect?
Let’s take a look at some issues here.
“The family was never contacted by the military command or the embassy on his arrest or conviction.”
Maybe. As he was out of jail for many months between his arrest and conviction, it sounds like Andre just didn’t tell his family what happened… and, instead of them blaming Andre, they want to blame the military for… for… for treating him like an adult and expecting him to take care of his own big-boy business?
“They tried to contact both and never received any information until after the first appeal.”
Yeah… and they swore there were FOUR Andre Fishers, both civilian and military, spread out through Korean jails… as well as two Andre Fishers in the same company that got into trouble for two different things. So… it’s somewhat hard to take seriously any administrative complaints they might have.
Remember, he was out of jail for many months at which point he could have facilitated any communication they wanted.
“The family was unaware of the second conviction in Korea.”
I see the pattern. Andre is a lying chronic screw-up who cried about racism and mistreatment but never bothered to mention his continued pattern of misbehavior. So… blame the military?
“The lawyer was not paid for by the US military until after his conviction, as per his lawyer.”
I have no idea… but others here do. This doesn’t ring true.
“The reality of the situation is that a young man is in jail for the next 2 years of his life and you guys joke about him getting killed and raped in prison.”
Well. Don’t worry. He will be neither killed nor raped. If he gets his act together, he will have 2 years to develop the tools and skills necessary for a very successful life. If he continues his current attitude and behavior, he will be back in a stateside jail within a few years.
“You call him and his family a bunch a dirtbags and shytbags but do not know who he is or they are.”
That is absolutely untrue.
I know Andre aspires to the thug life and fights police and keys cars and swears at judges and breaks all sorts of military regulations.
I know his family lies and then tells bigger lies when the first ones are found out.
I know that Jill lives on Saint James Drive and her careless “friends” tell some stories that are a bit more insightful than what shows up on the Internet… though even I have enough manners not to repeat certain types of gossip.
Is there anything I am missing? Is there some fundamental good which cancels all this out?
“I ask everyone in this forum: What would you do in this situation?”
I would never be in this situation. But if someone was, good advice would be to realize that your bullshyt has been called and then humbly take offers of advice and assistance… and then work to implement them.
“Andre is no angel in this situation and he has done things that he needs to pay for”
Yes.
“but the fact remains he did not rob the cab driver.”
I’m not sure I believe that.
As I understand it, during the trial and appeal, the taxi driver’s money clip and the amount of money he reported stolen was given as evidence that had been found on Andre at the time of his arrest.
Now Andre’s supporters have a different version… but it seems like it is another lie… either coming from them or from Andre.
You might want to double-check this… as your choices are admitting it and asking everyone to forgive Andre… or denying it without a source; which will evoke further ridicule… or denying it with a verifiable source which will build your credibility.
“I believe someone did rob the driver and he is covering up for that individual because that is the person who he is.”
Hahahhah! No. Many of us here have seen this actually happen between close friends in the military… and this in NO WAY fits that pattern.
See… when you are covering for someone, you don’t continue to claim to be innocent… as it takes away from that whole “covering” part.
The coverers simply admit their “guilt”, take their punishment, and go away happy in the satisfaction that they saved a buddy’s career or marriage or whatever.
If you believe Andre is “covering” for anybody, you are a sucker.
“For the rest of you your limericks may be funny to the forum but they are hurtful to the family, so I would appreciate it if they were not so vulgar and degrading.”
Hmmm… I guess there are a couple of choices here.
Andre’s supporters could apologize to Korea and USFK for repeated misunderstandings (on their part) or misrepresentations (or lies)… and start asking questions about what really happened from the people here who know… as they are only getting their information from Andre… or they know the truth and are bald-face lying… which, based on their complete lack of interest in asking questions and pursuing discussion, flat-out lying is most probable.
For goodness sake… a copy of everything written here winds up on the desks of a number of USFK leaders directly involved… and it is a perfect line of communication for Andre’s supporters to put in a good word for him and show that he is interested in turning his life around instead of swearing at the judge.
(though it saddens me when they edit a prison rape limerick for the final copy based on politically-correct sensitivities… y’all missin’ it)
…or…
They can keep stirring it up with continued misrepresentations… or lies, since the truth is openly available… and make themselves the continued target of ridicule.
…or…
…and I know this is a hard one… they could close their eyes when the computer jumps off the desk, backs them into a corner and tries to force them to click the link to this site.
“I know this forum will rip this apart but for the family’s sake can you please STOP!!!”
Maybe. There might be a few days of respectful silence while everyone waits for a reaction from the family.
Will they be interested in finding out and accepting the full story of what Andre did? Will they continue to blame the military for not acting like extended high school and sending a note home to mommy when her little snowflake didn’t tell her about being sent to the principal’s office (twice)? Will they report what actually happened instead of continued omissions, misrepresentations, and lies?
Or will they continue to blame racism and wildly speculate on improbable scenarios.
Let’s see.
4:25 pm on September 20th, 2011 325
Heard idiotic rhythm and rhyme,
Sent to the cooler, doing his time.
Love the truth, do what is right,
Save his youth, bring him the light.
4:48 pm on September 20th, 2011 326
Dan,
At some point you need to face reality and realize that there is no ‘conspiracy to get Andre’ going on here. Most of the posters on this blog have EXTENSIVE experience with the military and how things work within it – I served on active duty for nearly 25 years myself.
We are at the point of ‘preponderance of evidence’ now – with this latest tidbit about Andre ‘sneaking off base’, that only further adds to the pile of “this guy is trouble, and always looking for more.”
Soldiers don’t get restricted to base just on a whim – if they restriction (the official term), it pretty-much always must be done as part of some official proceedings, such as non-judicial punishment under UCMJ Article 15 (as GI Korea was talking about, above). Someone can’t just tell Andre “oh…and don’t go out the gate tonight…because I said so.” Restriction is a fairly serious thing and comes as part of some other punishment. The worst thing you can do while you’re on restriction is VIOLATE IT!!
If Andre was really this good, kind and responsible guy that everyone keeps talking about, then the last thing he would consider doing is violating restriction – oh and also to visit an off-limit establishment while violating restriction – that’s an even smarter move… If he really had his shyt together, he would have taken his lumps from whatever article 15 punishment he got and tried to move forward. But instead, he just heaps on more trouble by doing stupid crap like violating restriction. If you’re caught doing that, all it gets you is another, bigger whack of the hammer.
So – all this does is continues to cement-in the pattern of misconduct that this guy practices. He obviously has no respect for authority or for doing what is right. I have seen nothing in all of the evidence so far that suggests Andre is anything but a troublemaker and a thug.
Now this doesn’t mean that even at this late point in the game, there is absolutely no hope. I have seen Soldiers in similar situation finally turn it around, although they had to do some deep self-reflection and face reality to do it. In Andre’s case, he’s done with the military but he might be able to save the rest of his working career if he can get with the program. That’s the best thing, Bill, that you and his other ‘supporters’ can do at this point – face reality and quit trying to blame the military and some imaginary accomplices for what Andre is responsible for. Convince him to act like a civil person when appearing before authorities, may they be military or civilian. Acting like a thug might play fine for Youtube, but it won’t help him any in the Korean judicial system…and it won’t help him any when he needs to try and fight the Army for a discharge that won’t cripple his chances at an honest job in civilian life…
4:49 pm on September 20th, 2011 327
Dan, you know, I wrote a very vicious response but you are correct on a few points. The limericks and jokes may have gone too far. But damn they are funny. Take it like schoolyard bullying. We tore your falsehoods apart, and now we are ridiculing you every day. Not nice sure but that’s schoolyard bullying. Happens everywhere, not just in the schoolyard. People attack weakness. Your arguments for Andre were weak. And they have proven to be false. People like to call out bullshit. In fact people are more passionate in calling out bullshit than they are fighting for truths.
Also, you call me a coward. How so? I reposted what I thought were blatant falsehoods or delusional perceptions of the family and friends. Your support site is a public site. I would be able to view it if I were a supporter or not. As long as you continue to post falsehoods, it is fair game for attack.
You mention jokes about killing Andre in jail. That actually came from one of your supporters. I’ll give you a hint. Her name starts with S and ends with tephannie White. She was the one that hinted that they could have drugged him and that you should invest every ounce of your power to ensure that Andre doesn’t get killed. Really? I mean really? These are the sort of friends you have.
I think the support page should tell the truth about Andre and why he’s spending time in jail. I’m sure all his friends will support him despite his wrongdoings. It will make him a better man to admit his crime. He and his family has damaged Korea and the US Military far enough. It’s time to set the record straight. But no, I think you guys are still going to ride out to the embassy on Saturday. By the way, they won’t be home. They’re closed on Saturdays. That one’s free.
And finally, how’s it going with your reps and Joe Biden? They get back to you yet?
6:17 pm on September 20th, 2011 328
To All:
I respectfully ask that all the bashing and derogatory talk stop against Andre and the family. So that they can cope with the fact that their son and brother is in a Korean jail on the other side of the world.
I also ask that if there is anyone in Korea that would like to help this young man that they should visit him in the prison and talk to him.
7:24 pm on September 20th, 2011 329
Dan, are you on drugs? The taxi drivers money clip was FOUND ON YOUR ST ANDRE!!! HELLO! Is anyone home? I hope that St Andre can get his act together & after his punishment live a productive life. He broke the law including military regulations which are law for military members. I got a tattoo when I was in the Army (I got it in Germany, not Korea) which at the time was against regulations. I didn’t get caught but if I had I would have just manned up & accepted my punishment (I know St Andre is not being charged for that, I’m just using it as an example). If St Andre is in fact covering up for someone else then that is obstruction of justice which is against the law. St Andre broke the law, disobeyed orders, violated the law, was convicted in a court of law, and was sentenced to prison in accordance with the law & the SOFA with the Republic of Korea-END OF STORY.
7:27 pm on September 20th, 2011 330
That’s fair. I will at least try to do so as long as no more blatant lies are posted. It’s not that the bs is harmless. No, they come at the expense of two other parties (Korea, US Military). People will jump up to defend them against false accusations. Believe me, we all know that Korea has had some shitty court cases. This site was ready to come to Andre’s defense. But these guys hate being taken for fools. You tried to sell us a foogazie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M37LF_xGyc0). That sent alarm bells ringing.
But what’s done is done. You’re right, the family doesn’t need us to be mean-spirited about it and you do need to cope. Just do us a favor and make it easy for us. Don’t continue with the misinformation. A lot of us have emotional ties to both the US Military and/or Korea. We will fight you for attacks on us. You’ve already done harm which you have refused to correct. There are still supporters on your page spewing hatred towards Korea and all levels of the US gov’t. These people will forever hate us for that. You should think about that as well.
7:39 pm on September 20th, 2011 331
Dan where was the respect when his supporters were telling lies up and down the Korean blogs and forums?
Now that it’s clearly not going the way you want, you suddenly want to talk about respect?
respect is earned, and if they want to cope in private, they should have thought about that before shitting all over the community.
8:33 pm on September 20th, 2011 332
“So that they can cope with the fact that their son and brother is in a Korean jail on the other side of the world.”
Their problem is not the fact that this guy is in prison. Their problem is the fact that this guy is in a KOREAN PRISON. I doubt there would have been any of these supporters if the country “KOREA” was out of this equation. The matter of him being either guilty or innocent doesn’t even matter.
I think Korea should just wash their hands of this, and just turn this guy over to the US military prison where he should serve out the remaining of the sentencing. That way, this stops all the bashings against Koreans, going all viral over the internet because of these nut case supporters. And it will also save Korean people’s tax money from giving this guy, his steak dinners, his own personal cell, his own TV, and wasted “training” courses. Even homeless Koreans could only dream of such treatment.
Just turn him over to the US military. This guy’s not worth the hatred that his supporters are generating.
10:19 pm on September 20th, 2011 333
Wait a minute – - is this the same Tom that says that GIs and the SOFA are unfair if the US takes jurisdiction of these cases and/or prisoners? Could it be that Tom actually realized the military would hammer these fools a lot more than the Korean sentences of 4 years for either the TDC grandma rape case or the Hongdae rape case? Maybe Tom has seen the light…
4:44 am on September 21st, 2011 334
To Dan:
“I respectfully ask that all the bashing and derogatory talk stop against Andre and the family.”
Well, I respectfully request that Andre and his family immediately cease with their false accusations against the US military, the South Korean authorities, the US government, and those of us who know what we’re talking about when it comes to both the US military justice system and South Korea’s justice system.
[quote]So that they can cope with the fact that their son and brother is in a Korean jail on the other side of the world.”
I am given to understand that the best step in coping with a tough situation is to recognize the actual situation. Their “son and brother” is in a Korean jail because, simply, he committed a number of crimes. His earlier crimes did not trigger harsh sentences because the justice systems have something called judicial prerogative within limits. Since their “son and brother” continued with his life of criminal behavior, the possible sentences grew in both length and severity.
“I also ask that if there is anyone in Korea that would like to help this young man that they should visit him in the prison and talk to him.”
How many times do you have to be told this? The young man receives mandatory visits from the US military. The young man was provided, at no cost to him, both a Korean attorney and a US military legal observer.
South Korea in the year 2011 is not the “Off with his head!” world of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. Please look up the words “evidence” and “fact” in a competent dictionary. Then feel free to forward what you’ve learned to “the young man,” “their son and brother.”
Now let me tell you about a group of people following US law: the US Forces Korea. Andre’s family called his unit and requested information from his service record? Can you not grasp that to divulge that information without Andre’s written permission is an offense under federal law and also under the UCMJ? As another poster has said, Andre had more than enough opportunity–he still does–to set the record straight with his family. Perhaps he’s enjoying the support bandwagon. Or maybe he’s deluded himself.
No matter his reasons, he is where he belongs right now: prison. He committed a violent crime against another human being. Got that? He physically harmed another human being because he wanted to take something from that human being. And he has lied, pathetically lied, incompetently lied, lied so badly that people with more than three days’ military experience see through his lies. Two years isn’t long enough for the crud he’s putting his family through. In short, he’s a liar, a thief, and simply a selfish jerk. I wonder how long it will be before he finds himself in an American prison.
6:46 am on September 21st, 2011 335
I feel sorry for Andre.
Sure, he’s covered in self-inflicted wounds; but look at everything he’s lost…
That being said, if he is able to “man up” and “pick himself up by his bootlaces” as my late father used to say, he can still turn this situation around.
It won’t be easy and he’ll need to be contrite and humble; but he might even save his future if he starts now.
7:06 am on September 21st, 2011 336
setnaffa wrote:
Actually – in a way – he’s getting off light. Because when he returns to the US – his Korean prison record won’t follow him.
He will still (presumably) have a Bad Conduct Discharge. But that’s not nearly as bad a BCD and a prison record.
1:49 pm on September 21st, 2011 337
He will not have a Bad Conduct Discharge as that, just like a Dishonorable Discharge, can only be awarded as a sentence from a court-martial. He will have a General or Other Than Honorable discharge. That is, unless he screws up again before being separated from the Service.
6:34 am on September 26th, 2011 338
Perhaps this should all just die away but 3WM has an update and I feel the commenters here are more level headed than some of the visitors to 3WM so I’m sharing it here. They say much but don’t reveal much. In fact, things get a bit more cloudy. Much of the article is about procedural matters and reveals no new facts surrounding the event which I was hoping for.
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2011/09/26/obstruction-and-doubt-investigating-the-case-of-army-pvt-andre-fisher/
3:46 pm on September 26th, 2011 339
Well – there was that bit about ‘another witness’ – and it does seem that 3WM are trying to be a bit more objective than when they first took on this case. I’ll be interested to see if any of this ‘conspiracy’ stuff goes anywhere. Once again, if dude was smart, he would shed the ‘thuggery’ facade and try to help out his own case, but from all I’ve seen so far, I don’t expect that to happen any time soon…
1:18 am on September 28th, 2011 340
If they aim to be so “objective” why did they erase my comment that said: “since you hid the name of the blogger I guessed for the independent businessman in Korea, I must have been right.”
They erased someone else’s comment – ” a whole lot of nothing….”
neither comment seemed worthy of deletion?
They call themselves journalists but it seems to be more in the vein of yellow journalism to me. (No pun intended. Maybe.)
4:42 am on September 28th, 2011 341
For one long week I have waited,
for answers to points I have stated.
But no truth and shame,
just more denial and blame,
so Andre will keep gettin’ his butt dilated.
Hmmm…
The article at 3WM was one of the longest articles I have ever seen that said absolutely nothing.
I suppose I could comment at 3WM… and very easily defend against all the bitter, emotion-based nonsense the commenters keep vomiting out in an attempt to support Andre in a situation where he has grown increasingly unsupportable.
But, when honest and well-written comments, even if offensive or incorrect, are censored, I know it is a waste of time and not a place for me.
Perhaps some of their readers will comment here… especially the ones who really want to convince me Andre is innocent and his situation is worth further study… as, I would stop calling bullshyt on it if someone could show me it wasn’t bullshyt instead of obviously-bullshyt denials and equally-bullshyt silence when a claim is refuted.
Hopefully, commenting to a hostile crowd will weed out those who rely on emotions over facts…
…and, hopefully, one of his family members or supporters will simply address every statement and piece of evidence we have discussed here to explain why Andre is not guilty.
Nobody has done this… likely because it can’t be done.
Instead, we get a lot of emotional pleas, angry denials, and redirections which address points that have been shown to be misinterpreted or false. We also get outright lies that are later shown to be lies.
I’m not sure what to think of 3WM.
On one hand, right or wrong, it is good that 3WM is pursuing this story. It almost sounds like journalism… something found so infrequently these days.
On the other hand, they are chasing this story like tinfoil hats chase chemtrails and faces on Mars… grasping at tiny procedural issues and hinting at contrived theories to explain things that are quite obvious when fit with known facts.
If one only considers the hopeful theories they posted, without the inclusion of the very educated theories and large number of confirmed facts posted here, a very different view of the situation is seen.
3WM’s continued showing of only one side of this story while ignoring independently gathered facts seems to be someone pushing an agenda under the guise of reporting rather than trying to practice real journalism.
Perhaps we should make an Andre Fisher Wiki… with all the facts in the case… confirmed ones on one side in green and the family’s story on the other in red. Unconfirmed ones can be yellow.
In the end, it seems Andre’s supporters have made no effort to prove his innocence… discredit collected evidence, collect additional evidence, locate witnesses, etc.
Everything they have done has been to discredit the procedural end of the trial… perhaps even through outright lying. And, many of their complaints rest more with them not getting actively involved while expecting everyone to spoon feed them confidential information that Andre seems to have intentionally kept confidential.
Attacking procedures works on a court drama or with a high-dollar celebrity lawyer… but doesn’t work here… and there is a lot of hostility and irritation that a man who seems unquestionably guilty, as well as being of unquestionably bad character, would try to get out of his punishment by causing additional trouble for people just doing their jobs of separating the good from the bad.
I don’t expect anyone to address such things as Andre’s clothes matching the video, Andre having the taxi driver’s money clip and money (contrary to now-quiet claims of his supporters who claimed he didn’t), a consistent story on who his “friend” was, etc…
…but that would be real journalism.
So… I’m back in limerick mode. It seems his supporters don’t feel he is innocent enough to defend him… so neither will I.
11:19 am on September 30th, 2011 342
Andre’s family denies his guilt,
and makes false claims that he will be kilt.
But unless his cellmate’s deprived,
he’ll be more fun alive,
when he takes a diick up to the hilt.
1:20 pm on October 2nd, 2011 343
Q: If a bass fisher catches bass, and a salmon fisher catches salmon, what does an Andre Fisher catch?
A1: trouser trout
A2: anal gonorrhea
A3: no breaks because his “supporters” will not address any of the issues surrounding the case but continue to spread misinformation which screams of guilt and encourages people to rightfully call bullshyt… as it dilutes the help a truly innocent person may need in the future if they are wrongfully accused.