USFK Reinstates Curfew After Rape Incident, Is This The Right Response?

Tags: curfew, GI Crime, rape, USFK

• not convinced
  8:49 am on October 8th, 2011 1

  First, This is horrible. there is no excuse for a soldier doing this, no matter where they are. This makes an embarrasment out of all Americans, I walk around and at times I can feel the sentiment, even my girlfriend was irratated with me. (she started complaining about SOFA again) **Sigh…

  secondly. I agree, Curfew should be in affect always. Especially in hot spot areas like seoul, and other places where the frequency is too high to ignore. Curfew should be from 11pm – 5am on weekdays and 12:30am – 5am on weekends. They are soldiers, they are suspose to be defending this country, not playing games in itaewon, getting drunk, getting in trouble with the locals.

  But even with the severity of the crime, I still hope he gets a fair trial. Which, I doubt will happen. The way a country and a people treat crimes and suspected criminals says alot about them.

  If he doesn’t get a fair trial, Do you see USFK intervening if the sentence is too stiff via SOFA??

• GI Korea
  9:23 am on October 8th, 2011 2

  First of all the soldier who has admitted to rape in Dongducheon makes a fair trial kind of irrelevant. Anyway there is an observer that monitors these cases for USFK to ensure a servicemember receives a fair trial. Servicemembers for the most part will receive a fair trial but it is usually the sentencing that can be shady because public sentiment can play into the sentences given. Once public anger dies down the sentence is then reduced on appeal. The Soldier in question for the Dongducheon rape is actually lucky he is in a Korean court where he will likely be sentenced to about 5-7 years possibly even less depending on how much he pays in compensation and good behavior in prison. In a US military court he would do much more time in much more austere conditions compared to the Korean foreigner prison.

  Secondly this issue has nothing to do with the SOFA even though some Koreans keep bringing it up. When a GI commits an off post crime while off duty all the Korean authorities have to do is fill out some paperwork requesting his transfer to Korean custody which is what happened in the Dongducheon rape case and all the other prior GI crime cases where servicemembers were convicted in Korean courts. All the SOFA talk is irrelevant and nothing more then political grandstanding. You may want to ask your girlfriend about the fact that Korea has a SOFAs with other countries that allow its soldiers to be tried in a ROK military courts instead of local courts unlike USFK that hands its soldiers over to Korean courts.

• Retired GI
  10:27 am on October 8th, 2011 3

  @ number 1

  Have you even been to Korea for an assignment? Most (most) Soldiers are quite capable of defending Korea during the day, and having a damn fine drunken time all night long in Itaewon. I was able to do it for nine years off and on. I remember that I had a great deal of company most of the time.

  So, you can party all night on the weekend and work all day during the week.

  Except for Area One, it is basically a 0600 to 1800 JOB. I enjoyed taking a shower after those 12 hours and go down range, throw back some Jim & Coke, from one end of the ville to the other, eat some yaki from Mr. Lee and stumble home and do it again.

  The curfew was only for area one (fight tonight) until 2001! Granted, 9/11 was a good reason for a curfew nation wide. No curfew EXISTED for points south of area one until then. We did fine. The ville kept us contained. I understand that has changed now

  The curfew that is now in existence is a fine example of a FAILURE of LEADERSHIP. There is no cause for it, as there was after 9/11.

  These Soldiers are volunteers! They were not drafted. They OVERWHELMINGLY are not criminals or children. You would treat them as such. Shame on you.

  I have an idea: lets put a curfew on New Yorkers! They have a small percentage that go out and rape, murder, and steal.

  Let’s round up those Illegal Aliens. Put them in camps. They are out there getting drunk and killing with their cars. Committing rapes.

  No. The above two examples will never happen. But using the logic of the first poster they should.

  However, it is just FINE, to treat the American Soldier in a way that you would not treat New Yorkers or Illegal Aliens.

  Perhaps it is time for those who VOLUNTEERED to be Soldiers, to demand to be treated with the same respect as New Yorkers and Illegal Aliens.

  We are not supposed to judge other groups by the one or three that rape and murder — but we can do it with the Soldiers

  Makes me focking sick when I hear that chit.

  I would laugh myself sick if the troops pulled a nation wide “Sit-in” until the curfew was lifted. No work. No flights. No training!

  This piss-poor excuse for military leadership has degenerated into a situation where Officers and senior NCO’s sit in their offices until something like this happens and then rather then exercise some leadership, they do the most lazy thing possible, a curfew. Just focking SAD!

  We were a better military when we had female dancers in the NCO clubs. Now officers think of themselves as baby-sitters. One of the children focks up and interrupts daddy’s routine, he simply puts all of them on restriction (curfew) and goes back to reading his paper.

  I’m glad I was there when Pogi was cheap, the drinks were strong, and the “leadership” at least had to TRY to be Leaders. (oh and when WE focked up, WE got slammed. Not the entire country) WTF.

  WEAK ASSED LEADERSHIP, plain and simple.

• frmore
  11:48 am on October 8th, 2011 4

  “I also believe that if you get in trouble one time in the ville (curfew violation, underage drinking, fighting, assaulting MP’s, etc.) then non-judicial punishment (Article 15) should be taken with a 3 month removal of off post pass privileges, but if a second incident occurs the servicemember should lose off post pass privileges for the rest of their tours.”

  Excellent idea. Though I suspect the problem may ultimately be that soldiers from some groups would be disproportionately affected. Say, if the majority of service members who lose off-post pass privileges end up being african-american, the resolve to institute your very reasonable proposal will vanish. A colorblind system of rewards and penalties will be attacked and subsequently abandoned when it is realized that certain groups are differently-affected due to impulse-control behaviors and/or genetic predisposition to lower intelligence. It frequently referred to as “lowering the bar”. It’s just fact and the current sad state of affairs.

• ChickenHead
  12:07 pm on October 8th, 2011 5

  Let’s look at what was REALLY said by Major General Cardon…

  “First, we have interrupted one of our most important training events — Warpath — to reevaluate and refocus the Division on the most critical role we have in Korea: to strengthen the U.S.-ROK alliance. Second, we will conduct leader-facilitated instruction and education campaigns in order to address the gravity of these events and the behavior that led up to them.”

  I hope y’all caught this. It is important.

  This statement EXACTLY reflects the attitudes and capabilities of today’s “leadership”.

  Anti-rape/anti-alcohol training is more important than war training.

  Ya know what I think?

  Funk you, General…

  …you funking traitor to the country which entrusted you with keeping its military strong and ready… and traitor to the soldiers who depend on you to give them the training and practice needed to keep them alive and in one piece.

  What you are giving them is… nothing… except another box to check in your career.

  So what happened here?

  Due to a chronic lack of good decisions based on perpetually poor leadership, the resulting misbehavior of “a very small number of Soldiers”… which is all of TWO… is keeping the entire Division from practicing staying alive while killing the bad guys and furthering America’s interests.

  Instead, they get “leader-facilitated instruction and education campaigns” teaching them not to get drunk and rape teenage girls… information which the VAST majority probably already had some cursory knowledge of since… since… since… around puberty.

  On a side note… this is the kind of leadership which has brought us ten pointless years in Afghanistan with more to come.

  Instead of Afghan history and psychology, today’s leadership is far more knowledgeable and concerned about things like women/minority equality, anti-sexual harassment/assault, the dangers of tobacco and alcohol, and (most likely now) gay issues.

  Exchanging war training, which many can use, for anti-rape training which few need… or anti-alcohol training which most will ignore if they can… followed by a knee-jerk curfew… is crappy management… and doesn’t even rank high enough to be called “leadership”… even with snide little quotation marks.

  Let’s look at some of the other gems in this letter…

  “We will provide specific details about the curfew through the Chain of Command”…

  …fair enough…

  “and our Family Readiness Groups”…

  …hmmmm… rather ominous considering the curfew should be of no concern to families. Am I reading too much into that or is a sinister LaPortesque curfew lurking around looking for legal rationalization?

  “We have to put a stop to the excessive drinking that is often a precursor to acts of indiscipline and unprofessional behavior.”

  Ah-hah! We knew it was coming. Now. Deep breath.

  You stupid funk.

  The problem is not “excessive drinking”. The problem is miniscule leadership. People have been drinking “excessively” for years.

  The problem is that instead of giving GIs morale-building/stress-relieving freedom with quality guidance in a controlled environment, they are given oppressive restrictions… which only damage the careers of good guys up to no real harm except getting caught up in victimless violations of rules which are meant to control the dirtbags from causing real trouble… yet the dirtbags are the very ones who flaunt the rules by escaping to locations where these rules cannot be enforced… where a percentage of them get into real trouble.

  “I am incredibly proud of our leaders. Their response to recent, unfortunate incidents of violence has set the standard for this theater of how to appropriately manage the consequences of this behavior.”

  Yeah. Replace war training with rape and alcohol training. That sure is something to be proud of…

  …if you are the director of a sex offender program in a prison for the criminally insane or the volunteer sponsor of an AA meeting at the local YMCA…

  …not so much if you are a general tasked with leading men in war.

  You should be embarrassed, not proud.

  Obviously, no standards have been set… unless they are Standards of Fail and Ridicule.

  “Your efforts continue you make you and the 2nd Infantry Division truly – Second to None!”

  Yeah… in rape, dumbass. GO 2ID!

• Kingkitty
  12:34 pm on October 8th, 2011 6

  NOT CONVINCED

  I think you have another issue going on if your girl friend often complains about the SOFA agreement. You should be wonding why is she really with you

• johnny boy
  12:47 pm on October 8th, 2011 7

  #5

  kudos! very well put.

  i’m told it is division wide, but i’m not certain, that every one is on GO1 right now as well. i know the phrase “killing morale” gets thrown around a lot, but i’ll be damned if korea isn’t a little bit stressful on the average soldier. you don’t have to be an alcoholic to crave a few beers at the end of a work day here.

  i agree fully that leadership plays a huge part of this. i don’t think the actions of soldiers has changed too much over the years, just the ways they are responded to by the leadership. what do they hope to accomplish by taking away privileges from all? will it prevent this same thing from happening again? it may curb it by way of keeping soldiers locked up during a few more hours of darkness which i would imagine are when most rapes take place, but there is always going to be a couple soldiers doing bad things BECAUSE SOLDIERS ARE PEOPLE and PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS. you can’t expect there to be no acts of indiscipline, when the army has notoriously lax recruiting standards. most of us joes are decent human beings, but some really bad people still slip through the cracks. sometimes you can’t just throw nine weeks of basic training and an army values card at someone and get the desired result.

  taking over a command and having an international incident right off the bat is a pretty big shiit sandwich to have to take a bite out of. in today’s army, and with the mentality at the higher ranks, i venture to guess that if MG cardon had handled this any other way, he would have no chance at his 3rd star, which it would seem he is pushing for. and that’s the problem right there. it’s like these guys are only thinking about how something will look on their oer when they make a decision or publish a policy letter. in a duty station where the dog and pony shows would be best kept at a minimum, it seems to be our biggest concern.

• Lemmy
  2:06 pm on October 8th, 2011 8

  It was a bad idea when the curfew was lifted – With the lack of moral discipline of today’s soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines there is no reason to allow them complete freedom in a country with having a SOFA with the USA.

  The Armed Forces are open to criminals, idiots, homos and other moral degenerates. This idiot is incontrovertible proof.

  Stupid is as Stupid does.

• tbonetylr
  2:19 pm on October 8th, 2011 9

  “You may want to ask your girlfriend about the fact that Korea has a SOFAs with other countries that allow its soldiers to be tried in a ROK military courts instead of local courts unlike USFK that hands its soldiers over to Korean courts.”
  Good point and advice for ‘NOT CONVINCED’, but somehow I don’t think it will matter in the long run because this is Korea. Imagine this…”I walk around and at times I can feel the sentiment, even my girlfriend was irratated with me.”
  The above sounds like “blanket punishment” at home.

• Jungleface
  3:06 pm on October 8th, 2011 10

  I think there is more to the story than what was reported on, like, I think the women were lying about their ages? This is Korea after all, the land of the notoriously dishonest.

  Second, there was an incident in South Korea back in 2008, where a man, over the age of 60, and Korean, kidnapped a young 7 year old girl in a train station in Seoul, took her into the bathroom, and raped her. He then took a toilet plunger and plunged her colon, in a sorry attempt to remove incriminating evidence such as semen. He ended up reversing her colon out of her anus and she required surgery to have her colon fixed.

  What was his sentence? Aside from three years in jail, absolutely jack.

  Then there are the innumerable cases of Korean men beating and raping Korean women, which go unnoticed. It’s unbelievable that this would fuel so much Anti-U.S. Sentiment.

  I for one thank the U.S. Military who are stationed in countries outside of the U.S. If the countries that host them want to have a not so 100% accurate pretense to base their Anti-U.S. Sentiment on, and follow everybody else like the lemmings they are, let them. Also, pull the U.S. out of South Korea, the 13th wealthiest nation on the planet, and let them defend themselves.

  South Korea doesn’t know how good they have it. Nor do they know how good they have had it for the past 65 years with the U.S. Military presence in their country.

  Let them defend themselves.

• Orbit
  4:06 pm on October 8th, 2011 11

  They volunteered because they didnt have much of options. It’s not like their lives were great but one day they decided to serve their country. Think about it, you are stuck in some Alabama or middle of nowhere and you just got out of high school. What would you do? lol

• Jungleface
  4:28 pm on October 8th, 2011 12

  You sound like you think you’re better than the average Joe serving in Korea. That’s the problem with South Korea. Before the U.S. led “invasion,” South Korea was seen by the Chinese and Japanese as inferior, and seen as a waste of space by the U.S. and Russia. Then the U.N., led by the U.S., came along, liberated (yes, liberated) South Korea, and through time, South Korea has become a land of arrogance which breeds and attracts more arrogance, of course with the U.S. Military presence protecting their best interests, FDI. Where would South Korea be without the U.S. Military? Where?

  I’ll say it again, let South Korea defend themselves without the U.S. “watchdogs” at their feet.

• Chris In Dallas
  5:26 pm on October 8th, 2011 13

  11: Wrong wrong wrong.

  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903791504576587244025371456.html?KEYWORDS=military

• Leon LaPorte
  5:41 pm on October 8th, 2011 14

  We have all been here before

• Smitzsimmons
  6:14 pm on October 8th, 2011 15

  There’s just no doubt the U.S. had noble reasons to protect S. Korea in the beginning but 60 years later it’s just turned into a debacle. Those dirty Villes are TOXIC, the soldiers behave like animals and the Bar Owners rape them to no end. I can’t imagine being in one of those Villes on a Saturday night, let alone any night of the week. Dirty, scummy, and sleazy with everyone acting the fool. No cure in sight.

• USinKorea
  9:08 pm on October 8th, 2011 16

  11 We can’t all have as much value to our lives as an Orbit, now can we? Some of us were just born inferior. Some superior. Some of us were created losers. Some simply better than the vast majority of humanity. Some were even blessed with the right ethnicity. Most the wrong. Some were great enough to have the power to immigrate to other countries full of the lesser people. Places where their natural, gentic and self-created superiority could shine even brighter among the lesser humans. Others can only pine to be as good as them…

• Not convinced
  10:36 pm on October 8th, 2011 17

  Let me state, first I’m not being blanket punished lol.

  Second @ number 2. I am on assignment in korea. Im sofa. You do realize that not only are there geopolitics at play here but also the reputation of all Americans are at stake when this sort of thing happens. That was my point. It’s not fair but thats the reality of it here. Yes the Koreans are hypocritical with regards to their own. But guess what all of us contractors, civi’s and grunts have to be mindful, we’re in there country.

  Gi Korea. I did bring it up. Also brought up the VA massacre. She’s slowly realizing that she’s been spoon fed propoganda by the Korean news media. Shes just feeding off the media at this point. I can take the girl out of Korea but I’m pretty sure I wont be able to take the korean out of the girl.

• Orbit
  11:20 pm on October 8th, 2011 18

  I’m just stating some obvious facts. It’s not just Koreans who think that way either. “If a young fellow has an option of having a decent career or joining the Army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq . . . [T]hose who have the least opportunities . . . find themselves in the military.”

  Charlie Rangel
  U.S. Representative, Democrat, from New York.

• Retired GI
  11:45 pm on October 8th, 2011 19

  One point for #17, while it is their country, they only have a country because of the American Military.

  Guess what, I do have a second point: If it is a problem because of “geopolitics”, than I have a solution. We should take our criminal element, otherwise known as the American Military, back to America where it belongs. In that way, we would no longer be a danger to the geopolitical situation.

  The Koreans would be happy on their little strip of land between China and Japan, free of the Americans at last. American Service Members would no longer be held prisoner on their own base camps, at the discretion of their “leaders”, whenever they felt the need because they were unable to lead.

  A win – win.

  After all, we would still have a presents in the area. It is called Japan.

  I bet we could save some money that way as well.

• USinKorea
  11:53 pm on October 8th, 2011 20

  Well, if Charlie Rangel agrees with the likes of an Orbit, what more could possibly be said?

• ChickenHead
  12:23 am on October 9th, 2011 21

  Smitzsimmons,

  “I can’t imagine being in one of those Villes on a Saturday night, let alone any night of the week. Dirty, scummy, and sleazy with everyone acting the fool. No cure in sight.”

  Now imagine that it is so easy to get into trouble in the Villes that it becomes more attractive to get on some public transportation and go deep into Seoul where there are no restrictions or supervision.

  A number of GIs still act the fool… not criminal enough to make a statistic… but a constant reminder to a densely-populated segment of Korean society that GIs are animals who need to be back in their cages.

  But reactionary USFK “leadership” not only refuses to recognize this situation, they will only deal with it if it becomes a larger political issue than the appearance of “good order and discipline” in the Villes… or whatever other self-created crisis comes up.

  The sad thing is that, after a day’s work, young GIs SHOULD play hard and “act the fool” while they are young, dumb, and full of cum.

  This is not a problem of “ungrateful” Koreans who have every right to not want irritating or criminal foreign soldiers mixing with their civilian populations.

  And this isn’t a problem of rowdy GIs who become better soldiers through managed drinking, fighting, screwing, and general grabazzery in a controlled environment.

  This is a complete failure of senior leadership which is completely disconnected from the reality of their soldiers… and completely focused on manufacturing reactionary programs and paperwork which exist in a contrived and manipulated parallel reality designed only to collectively advance their careers.

  Everybody,

  Enough with the tired “USFK should just go home” or “Koreans are ungreatful”.

  The issue here is USFK leadership… and everybody here should stay directly focused on that… perhaps not because there is any hope of it changing… but perhaps a good discussion here will be remembered by tomorrow’s general reading it today.

  Many of the problems in today’s society can be traced to a desire for everyone to bicker over simplified and emotional side issues while ignoring the real problems.

  So what do you think?

  I told the General to go funk himself for pizz-poor leadership that affects the readiness of USFK… all while using “readiness” as an important excuse to serve other unimportant ends.

  Is there anybody who wants to tell me I’m wrong and rape and alcohol training IS more important than war training?

  Or does the general need to go funk himself as there is collective agreement that USFK leadership IS full of third-rate generals sent off to Korea to keep them from getting real soldiers killed in the last few years before retirement?

• Leon LaPorte
  12:35 am on October 9th, 2011 22

  Actually MG Cardon seems to be quite intelligent and a fairly level headed guy – and he did just take over. Granted even he must work within the parameters of what our military has become and what is perceived as constituting “leadership”.

  I certainly don’t know how to fix it. The military has become feminized and hamstrung by political correctness and “Uber Christianity”, for instance evangelicals, who seem to desire our Christian Soldiers to become something along the lines of warrior priests.

• USinKorea
  1:09 am on October 9th, 2011 23

  I wonder what people think of the college crowd and their entertainment areas? Those cultured bright lights of our future…???…

• Leon LaPorte
  1:18 am on October 9th, 2011 24

  23. Fair point.

• Smitzsimmons
  1:26 am on October 9th, 2011 25

  I understand there are leadership issues but the whole protect S. Korea from the Norks is passe’. Not to say we should abandon S. Korea, of course we shouldn’t. However, a very large portion of the S. Korean populace (for whatever reasons be it they’re young, they’re racist, they’re under the spell of leftist media, etc) are extremely rude and unaccepting to a ridiculous level.

  It’s so overt that I casually point out the following to my friend during our limosine bus ride to Incheon airport: The young Korean man in front of us was hanging his legs over his right armrest (so his legs would hang out into the center aisle) just to avoid sitting next to the young black soldier or airman next to him. Don’t give me this crap like he may have been wearing inappropriate attire or whatever, the soldier was nicely dressed and groomed and I had talked to him before about his upcoming trip before the bus got completely full. It was complete BS to hang his legs over into the center aisle.

  I could literally give dozens and dozens of examples like this (and I will, if anyone really wants them lol). There are often articles written in various newspapers (Stars and Stripes, Wall St. Journal, NY Times, Washington Post) that the S. Koreans have a general distaste for the U.S. and the presence on their peninsula. Once again, I could go on and on, I’ve spent a lot of time in S. Korea and although many Koreans are some of the nicest people on earth there is just too large of the population who make it excessively unpleasant for foreigners and the Koreans do have a universal reputation for being some of the rudest people on earth, whatever the underlying reason may be.

  It’s way past time that the U.S. make a significant change towards S. Korea. Instead of bringing more Americans (dependents) into the country the U.S. should play hardball with the S. Koreans to get them to 1. Pay a larger share and 2. Live with a much smaller U.S. presence and 3. Call U.S. if they really need U.S.

• Lemmy
  2:00 am on October 9th, 2011 26

  Chickenhead – I’ll tell you that rape training and alcohol training is more important than “war training.” I do likely not understand your point, but this is what I see.
  The action of one idiot has started a “citizen war” between Korean civilians and Americans.
  I just returned from “war” where the preparation training was completely worthless -(though it costs the taxpayer $400,000)- the training did nothing to prepare me for what I did. Without the training – I would have done just fine and suffered one month less. I did not use any of the training I received and the training was geared toward the weakest link and I mean the weakest link –a 4 hour block of instruction on how to apply a tourniquet; Disassembly and reassembly of an M16; how to wear body-armor. This was my “go to war” training? I thought it was part of my Skill Level I Training. Battle Drills such as react to an ambush and convoy ops are all part of normal skills that are taught all throughout a person’s military career. Therefore, the training that “prepared” us for “war” was worthless.
  Presently, the 50 meter target seems to be idiots getting drunk and raping either a young girl or old woman, beating the hell out of a taxi driver and stuffing him in the trunk of his taxi, stealing a city bus etc, etc, etc…..
  AFN airs commercials telling people not to get drunk and rape people; never shake your baby and other similar demeaning topics to this I say (WTF?) Who and what kind of people do I work with? Where do these people come from? Why are their morals and values so low that they don’t know it is wrong to rape women and shake a baby? I do not belong around those people and they certainly don’t have a place in the military.
  If you think long and hard about the SOFA you’ll understand it is not intended for protecting stupid people, but protecting the command and institution. A by-product is the individual rights as Americans. We all know the Army harbors thieves like a tree harbors leaves, well could we imagine the outrage by the American people if 33% of Soldiers in Saudi Arabia returned home missing their left hand?
  The US Government is liable for actions caused by their “agents” this latest idiot, was here in Korea because the US Government ordered him here. That is the only reason he was here. Let’s say he drives an M88 for a living and runs over a couple of children during duty because he has not had any sleep and is ordered to drive the M88 anyway. The US Government is liable for his actions and paid a heavy price for murdering those two children. I didn’t see the command of that soldier standing in front of a Judge in a Korean Court and no one else did either. An internal investigation called a commander’s inquiry (It’s right in AR 15-6) was performed by the US Army and the findings and recommended actions presented to the commander. The investigation was performed by the US Army, sure the KNP investigated, but the SOFA prevented them from any punitive actions because of the preservation of individual rights under the institutional rights. The idiot’s actions occurred off duty and the command is not criminally liable so the SOFA does not apply to them.
  The US suffers in this case because of the actions of one of its “agents” causes the political scales to tip a little in the favor toward ROK….. The US forces suffer because of the reinstatement of a demeaning and belittling curfew. But most of all the victim, a young Korean girl will now live for the rest of her life with the emotional scare and societal alienation because of a US Service Member raping her.
  The seriousness of this seems to escape many (probably the same demographic AFN targets with the “Don’t Shake Your Baby” and “Don’t Get Drunk and Rape People” TV adds.
  “Go to war” training did nothing to help the US help defend the ROK against the aggressions of the North. Punishing the command of this idiot, which may persuade another command to take aggressive actions to combat and control their own idiots.

• Cloying Odor
  2:32 am on October 9th, 2011 27

  ‘The Armed Forces are open to criminals, idiots, homos and other moral degenerates. This idiot is incontrovertible proof.’

  Based on some recent events I suspect that the criminal aspect of the force will be getting pink slips in the coming force reduction. You’re stuck with the Idiots and Homos.

• ChickenHead
  4:59 am on October 9th, 2011 28

  Lemmy,

  I see.

  The “war training” has become just another worthless going-through-the-motions paperwork-generating fake-readiness farce… meaning that rape and alcohol and baby-shaking training IS more useful for the success of the military.

  I want to cry.

  Leon,

  “Actually MG Cardon seems to be quite intelligent and a fairly level headed guy – and he did just take over. Granted even he must work within the parameters of what our military has become and what is perceived as constituting “leadership”.”

  I can only wonder if, in this situation, the difference between a worthless general, a good general, and a great general is…

  The worthless general knowingly does the wrong thing “with in the parameters of what our military has become”…

  The good general ignores the warped expectations of a broken system and does the right thing…

  And the great general does the right thing and makes those around him recognize it is unquestionably the right thing which they all should be emulating.

  Of course great generals don’t come around often… and good generals seldom make it that high in a system that rewards appearance over reality…

  …which leaves us with worthless generals. Lots and lots of worthless generals.

  MG Cardon might be a good guy… but he has done the wrong thing, set a precedent for the wrong thing, publicly announced priorities that value the wrong thing, and shown that two dirtbags are capable of disabling the entire Division…

  …and shown that, in the end, his career is more important than readiness.

  Those are not the actions of a great general or a good general… which leaves one option.

  Also… criminals, idiots, and homos shouldn’t be lumped together.

  Homos can do their jobs and don’t cause trouble if they keep the homo to themselves.

  There is even a role for criminals and idiots… but Command must have some serious will and motivation while ignoring the demands of a distant and disconnected society which has no understanding of how to get things done.

• Tom
  5:01 am on October 9th, 2011 29

  Yet, just another case of USFK crime today.

  Five USFK dependent teens caught and turned over to the USFK, after they robbed unsuspecting South Korean citizens in a series of hit and run robberies. The USFK teens robbed their victims by walking up behind them, then sucker punching them to the ground. Then they pocketed the victims’ money.

  Of course they and their supporters will probably say they are being framed by the racist Koreans, but unfortunately for them, they will have to explain how they were caught on CCTV tape, assaulting and robbing two Koreans in two separate occasions.

• tbonetylr
  5:02 am on October 9th, 2011 30

  You condemn U.S. military high leadership but for some reason entrust lower level leadership with said amount of passes each weekend.

• not convinced
  9:25 am on October 9th, 2011 31

  Retired GI, I agree

  Send our boys home, stop spending needless money protecting people that don’t appriciate it.

  but since that won’t happen, they need to stay the fudgeck out of trouble because they are a lightning rod for any anti-american sentiment all over Asia.

  How do you propose we deal with this? and the next time and the time after that… or as Leon stated the time before this?

  Rightfully so, the Koreans are upset, I would be. infact I am upset about this.

  if this was a once in a lifetime thing, well I guess harsh punishment would be ok. but this is a troubling trend.

  on a Side point, GI Korea… When was the last time a Contractor or Civi was involved with such case? or engrish teacher?

  -NC

• Leon LaPorte
  10:22 am on October 9th, 2011 32

  A lot of Koreans do appreciate and understand why we’re here but they are the silent majority.

  These dirt bags shouldn’t be raping in the US or Korea. A dirtbag is a dirtbag, where ever we station him.

  Running away is not the way to solve our problems. It has been expressed on various levels that the Japanese, Chinese and even the Russians grudgingly need us here for the stability of the region (and at least once even the norKs in reference to unification). Please don’t over simplify the situation.

• Leon LaPorte
  4:23 pm on October 9th, 2011 33

  `US Army recruits men with felony records, mental disorders`
  http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2011101087018

  OCTOBER 10, 2011 00:21
  The string of sexual crimes committed by American soldiers in Korea in recent weeks is known to have resulted from reckless recruitment of men with criminal records, mental disorders or other problems.

  According to U.S. Defense Department data released in 2008 by House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Rep. Henry Waxman, the number of U.S. Army recruits convicted of felonies such as robbery or assault more than doubled from 249 (based on U.S. Army statistics) in 2006 to 511 in 2007.

  Waxman blamed unconditional recruitment of soldiers amid a shortage of military manpower due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

  Analysts say crimes committed by American soldiers in Korea have increased in number because a considerable portion of inexperienced soldiers are deployed to Korea. The number of crimes committed by American soldiers in Korea surged from 207 in 2007 to 316 in 2010.

  Despite mounting crimes committed by American servicemen here, no effective measures or regulations are in place to punish them. Clause 5 under Article 22 of the Status of Forces Agreement on the deployment of U.S. forces in Korea suggests that even if an American soldier commits a violent crime such as murder or rape, Korean police can take the suspect into custody only when they directly catch him at the crime scene.

  In other cases, Korean police must hand over the suspect to U.S. authorities if requested.

  Moreover, the U.S. military has the right to reject Korea’s request to put a suspect in detention if and when it finds even a slight chance that the soldier’s rights could be infringed on in a Korean criminal investigation or trial by a Korean court. For this reason, U.S. soldiers who commit crimes are detained mostly by military police of their own units rather than Korean authorities.

  In addition, if the U.S. demands that Korea hand over jurisdiction, the latter has no choice but to do so except in cases in which the crimes are deemed “exceptionally serious.” For this reason, Korea has used its jurisdiction over a U.S. military suspect in less than 5 percent of all crimes committed by American soldiers stationed here.

  A source at the National Campaign for Eradication of Crimes by U.S. Troops in Korea said, “To minimize punishment, U.S. authorities arbitrarily judge that most crimes were committed while on official duty and thus take away jurisdiction over cases from Korean authorities,” adding, “Even in cases where Korea holds jurisdiction, only one to two U.S. soldiers as defendants are given prison sentences per year.”

• Son of Anarchy
  4:38 pm on October 9th, 2011 34

  PUT THE SALT PETER BACK IN THE VICTORY PUNCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• kangaji
  5:04 pm on October 9th, 2011 35

  #5: CH – spot on. Senior leadership comes in and talks about training being priority #1 over and over for it to get squashed by army wide BS requirements and micromanagement of training schedules. Ugh, don’t want to go into detail on rokdrop but… EXACTLY. You hit the nail on the head.

• Cloying Odor
  6:18 pm on October 9th, 2011 36

  In a related story…

  http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2011101087018

• Tbonetylr
  6:20 pm on October 9th, 2011 37

  “It has been expressed on various levels that the Japanese, Chinese and even the Russians grudgingly need us here for the stability of the region (and at least once even the norKs in reference to unification).”

  Isn’t it fantastic that the American government cares more about those nations than its own?

• kangaji
  7:11 pm on October 9th, 2011 38

  Have to go back 4 years to support your agenda eh, ttonga pabo

• Homeboy
  1:11 am on October 10th, 2011 39

  From the comments on this bulleting board and acts committed by those recently Americans… we can derive what Americans may be thinking :

  1. All Korean women are easy lay. (or prey?)

  2. Even if you rape one, you WILL get off free easily or stay in an American Army supplied Korean jail for “westerners” …

  3. Korean law (regulation) is general lenient on GI’s raping underaged girls.

  4. Even if you mug a Korean who had a perfectly good right to get drunk and go home in one piece, YOU will get off free.

  5. On the contrary to what many on this board and Americans believe, SOFA takes away much of Korean rights in prosecution of crime offenders.

  6. In South Korea, some 30 thousand Americans are under SOFA protection. That ! is too many.

  7. Solution: Get those young GI Joes off this peninsula and put an age limit on those who can serve here. You only have a token force any way. Replace them with KATUSAs who are probably lot smarter and more disciplined then the whoremongerers….. KATUSAs are paid next to nothing… it would be a win-win situation for all.

  There… easy ain’t it?

• Frank
  4:35 am on October 10th, 2011 40

  It amazes me that people in SK and USofA still believe that USofA is in South Korea to protect the poor Koreans from the bad guys up north. If Uncle wasn’t getting something out of the presence of US forces in South Korea, you can bet your Grandmother’s blue ribbon winning apple pie that they would not be there. Does anybody seriously believe that South Korea needs protecting from the north? Some of you need to zoom your perspectives and world views out a little bit and see things for what they really are.

• Leon LaPorte
  4:40 am on October 10th, 2011 41

  40. Go on?

• Retired GI
  4:51 am on October 10th, 2011 42

  40. So you agree with me that there is absolutely no reason for American Military to be in Korea.

• Tom
  5:05 am on October 10th, 2011 43

  US is in Korea for one thing. To project America’s power in Asia. They want to counter China and Russia, and prevent them from becoming too strong. Americans don’t care about Korea one iota, as if they really care to protect Korea. On the contrary. Just read all the comments here. They only care about one thing only, getting laid.

• Leon LaPorte
  5:29 am on October 10th, 2011 44

  43. I like how you lump everyone together but I wonder, Tom. Do you care about getting laid?

• Frank
  5:40 am on October 10th, 2011 45

  Leon, you already know.

  Me? I’m merely a functionary on the fringes of Empire. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their American Idol blinders on.

  I totally agree retired GI, but much to the dismay of many on here, it has nothing to do with ungrateful Koreans not licking my sack for protecting them from the big bad wolf though. My country simply has no business being here after nearly 60 years. And that goes for a multitude of countries around the globe; not just South Korea.

  Tom, I don’t even think you’re Korean. You’re a sockpuppet used to stir up trouble and commentary on the blog is all.

• Jungleface
  5:55 am on October 10th, 2011 46

  The U.S. is in Korea now to protect South Korea’s main interest. Long Term Stability, which is reliant on FDI (Foreign Direct Income). Since South Korea doesn’t really have resources which are sustainable, they rely on international business to keep their economy in shape.

  It sounds ridiculous, but think about it. If you were a businessman from say, Portugal, or say, I don’t know, Germany, or perhaps Urguay, or Israel, and your company sent you to live and work in South Korea, would you feel safe if the U.S. Military were there or were not there? It’s plain and simple. If the U.S. Military leaves South Korea, so will foreign interest in South Korea. This would result in South Korea’s economy eventually collapsing, and the South Koreans would still be going shopping in Myeongdong and listening to K-Pop and playing war craft, until the power goes out and Seoul goes ablaze in either riots or eventual takeover by the North.

  The U.S. Military presence is no longer in South Korea to keep North Korea back. The South Korean and North Korean Governments together shake hands behind closed doors as well and laugh at the U.S. all the way to the bank. They are sneaky little Hangooks. Always wanting more, more, more.

  I taught businessmen in South Korea from 2007-2009. Although they were very polite and respectful (well one of them needed a punch in the face) their view was something like as follows. “America invaded our country right before were became reunified.” Okay, right. Then it was something like “After America invaded us, we were oppressed and America has since done great damage to our country.” Okay, right. Then it was something like “America owes us a lot. American Army should stay here, and America should pay the price.” Right. So apparently, America started the Korean War to begin with, although America wanted absolutely nothing to do with the Korean peninsula in the first place.

  Whenever there is discussion in the media (which is quickly hushed) about a possible troop withdraw, the international headlines are suddenly slapped with more reports of rhetoric from North to South Korea, thus providing reason enough for the U.S. Military to stay as a deterrent against North Korea’s imminent invasion which still hasn’t happened, and won’t. The SK government, which alternates every five years, goes from working towards eventual reunification to anti-reunification. This was clear in the transition from Ro Mu Hyun and his sunshine policy to Lee Myung Bak and his antagonistic approach towards North Korea.

  Take another example, such as the G20 summit which happened last summer, in Seoul. 20 of the worlds strongest countries (in terms of economic strength) convened in Seoul to discuss ways to become richer while masquerading under the guise of how to improve the global economy. Ironically, before and after the G20 summit, there were attacks from the North to the South which for some reason, still, the true facts to these attacks haven’t yet been revealed. This is because the Koreans are good at keeping the international media at an arms length when they are shaking hands amid Inter-Korean relations.

  Therefore, after these attacks, and the coincidental simultaneous G20 summit, South Korea kills two birds with one stone. They have set up more platforms to do more international business with the world, as well as provide a viable reason for the U.S. Military to stay longer.

  Look at when the U.S. withdrew so many troops from Korea to send them to Iraq and Afghanistan. This was followed by a sudden outburst in the headlines of the same old same old, North Korea threatening to attack, but of course they never did, until the G20 summit came around.

  By nature, Koreans cannot be trusted. This is a well known fact among other Asian countries. By nature, Koreans are selfish. This is also a well known fact among other Asian countries. By nature, Koreans are arrogant, rude, and hyper-racist as well as hyper-critical and inflexible. This is also a well known fact among other Asian countries.

  Don’t like my comment? Hate on it.

• Homeboy
  6:14 am on October 10th, 2011 47

  Hmm… Korean babes are easy and they’re good lay…. With regard to #45, yes the U.S has no business whatsoever in a foreign land such as S Korea…. Americans should pull their troops out and keep a few around for the UN dutiesnit still need to fulfill… It’ll solve everything….. Asia for Asians…. Americans butt out of Asian mainland and islands…

• Homeboy
  6:19 am on October 10th, 2011 48

  #46, your venomous hatred for all things Korean is well noted…. Please call your Congressman to get American boys outta God forsaken land of morning calm ….

• Frank
  6:43 am on October 10th, 2011 49

  I agree with most of your general observations on how the Korea/US relationships seems to work JF, such as the uncanny ability of North Korea to rear her ugly head at highly conspicuous and coincidental times, but for the record I do take respectful exception to your opinion of Koreans. There are good and bad people everywhere on the planet. It really is that simple. Trust me on this as I have spanned the globe multiple times.

  By the way, is one of the underlying purposes of this blog to spread hatered between Koreans and Americans, or does it simply boil to the surface here at the little old ROKDROP? I sense that there are ulterior influences at work here, but I digress.

  I ask once again, do people reading this blog really believe that America gets nothing out of the SK/US relationship? The debate here almost always focuses on what America provides to the ungrateful Koreans, but never on what the US gets out of the deal. I say again, if the US wasn’t getting anything out of it, it wouldn’t be in Korea.

• K
  6:48 am on October 10th, 2011 50

  I really, really doubt Korea would collapse if the US military left the peninsula. I can provide a disseration’s worth of reasons why this would be the case, but too lazy and tired too I am.

  On the other hand, what the hell does that have to do with the thread?

• Tom
  7:10 am on October 10th, 2011 51

  “By nature, Koreans cannot be trusted. This is a well known fact among other Asian countries. By nature, Koreans are selfish. This is also a well known fact among other Asian countries. By nature, Koreans are arrogant, rude, and hyper-racist as well as hyper-critical and inflexible. This is also a well known fact among other Asian countries.” – JungleMonkey

  hmmmm….. that sounds just like what the entire world says about the Americans. lol.

  “I really, really doubt Korea would collapse if the US military left the peninsula.” – K

  You are correct. All it will do is to make Korea’s choices much more clearer and easier. Korea will choose China, and it will make these kinds of questions (about what will Korea do when the time has arrived when it must choose between China and the US), obsolete. Play the video and watch.

  http://etv.donga.com/view.php?idxno=201110100047643

  And China is already, Korea’s number one investors.

  A power bloc of Asia against the declining and disorganized power bloc of battered and tattered Western nations… hmmm…

• Retired GI
  7:18 am on October 10th, 2011 52

  46, thank you for that well thought out reply. I agree.

  49, frank-what does America get from keeping troops in Korea? I would like to know.

  50, I agree K. Korea would be Just Fine, without American Military. What it has to do with this thread is that Korea is just another deployment. Just another year away form the wife and Kids. The car and freedom that most Americans enjoy. In other words, a year of duty in Korea is a pain in the a$$ for most Soldiers. I had never heard of Korea before I was sent there. I found Korea to be an interesting country and learned what I could of the culture and traveled as much as I was allowed. I hear that is not allowed now. Also I was single and not away from my family, as MOST Soldiers are. So for me, Korea was an adventure. For most, it is a year away form their family.

  If we are not needed, as it seems we aren’t, we should leave. If Koreans do not want America there, as it seems that they don’t, we should leave.

  Korea will be just fine without the Americans!

  We left the Philippines. We should leave Korea as well.

  Did that answer your question K?

• Homeboy
  7:27 am on October 10th, 2011 53

  #51, I think your view reflect exactly what many peace loving silent majority Americans have on their minds….You should all call on your congressional representatives to ditch S. Korea…just like the Philippines…show ungrateful Koreans that Americans have absolutely no interest in smelly Kimchi loving crowd….

• Frank
  7:32 am on October 10th, 2011 54

  RGI, if you think about it long enough and do some research, you’ll figure it out on your own. You shouldn’t limit the question to just Korea though. The question you should be asking is what does America get for keeping its troops in over 150 countries around the globe?

• Homeboy
  7:44 am on October 10th, 2011 55

  As mentioned above, Koreans are rude, racist, whoremongering, and ungrateful… The only good thing about this place is abundance of willing young girls who would jump in the sack with you for the taste of Western phallus…… Korean girls seem to complain mostly about dimunitive size of their countrymen both the height and lenghth of physical attributes….. Let them Koreans go on their own… They don’t want American military here on the Penonsula….

• John in NY
  7:59 am on October 10th, 2011 56

  I think the majority of us are in agreement that we should just leave if Korea doesn’t want us to be there. I’m too lazy to start the campaign though. Maybe we could post on a government site and get the attention of POTUS. Now, we’re talkin’!!

• Jeff
  1:04 pm on October 10th, 2011 57

  Saw this coming a long time ago.

  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/06/army-general-discipline-problem-risks-becoming-cancerous/%22%20+%20dotomiDmm%20+%20%22/?intcmp=obinsite

• Homeboy
  1:11 pm on October 10th, 2011 58

  Koreans should feel the sentiment from this bulletin that most average American GIs in Korea are here because their Government put them here… GIs are horny as hell and lonely too…. Koreans should realize that they should come to a grave awakening that it is Koreans, on this great Peninsula, to have a self-determination for their fate…. Americans are not going to accept the fact that they ARE the aggressors and dividers of people in Korea….. Sofa or no Sofa, as all of Americans have mentioned, it is time for the US troops to leave SouthKorea unilaterally….let’em go…. Or else, you WILL continue to see Korean girls become sexual plaything for Americans…. !!!

• Homeboy
  1:28 pm on October 10th, 2011 59

  To Koreans: did you know that 2nd infantry division only has one maneuver brigade in Korea but even that unit’s rank is filled with KATUSAs? Korean taxpayers are subsidizing US presence here on the Peninsula….as said above… You might as well let those Americans take their troops off of your land… Doesn’t it hurt your Korean prides that Americans are protecting you? Americans don’t even want to be here… They ALL want to go back to their mainland…….Koreans can defend for themselves!!!

• Tom
  1:34 pm on October 10th, 2011 60

  America needs Korean permissions to leave? That’s a new one.

• Homeboy
  1:35 pm on October 10th, 2011 61

  The US Government should withdraw 2nd ID from South Korea… It is not even full strength…. A far cry from its hey days with a Corps sized power packed Division it once was? Koreans should realize that as mentioned by Americans in this blog that Americans really don’t give a hoot about you…. Let’em go back home… Work with Norh Korea for peace…. Don’t let foreigners run amok raping Korean girls and women !!!

• Leon LaPorte
  2:09 pm on October 10th, 2011 62

  60. I didn’t know Kim Jung Il was a ROKdrop poster. Some of that reads like (the usually very entertaining and laughable) norK propaganda. Keep it up! I almost blew coffee out my nose on a couple of them.

• Homeboy
  2:36 pm on October 10th, 2011 63

  61. Thank you for your word of encouragement…. I’m sure those Korean readers have by now understood that average Americans really don’t care about rapes of two underaged Korean girls… Generally average Joe is pissed off about not the rapes but curfew and ‘ungrateful’ attitudes of Korean general populace… It is really a ripe moment for serious review of this so called strongest alliance in the world… Americans dont’t want to be in S Korea… Face it Korea…

• John in NY
  2:42 pm on October 10th, 2011 64

  Ok USA. I’m calling you out. If you don’t like it, get out. Join me on Wall St. and we can drink beer with Al Sharpton! Down with the 1%. But don’t touch the 5% please.

• ChickenHead
  2:56 pm on October 10th, 2011 65

  Official censorship is a bad thing.

  On the other hand, society has a duty to condemn or ignore inflammatory or destructive ideas and speech which hinder keeping focused on the truly important priorities and goals.

  One problem with American society at this time is that instead of ignoring idiocy, large segments of the population are championing it.

  That type of thinking is being reflected here where important conversation concerning weaknesses in USFK leadership and possible solutions which can strengthen both the military and the United States are being ignored… and conversation is diverted to the tired topics of “ungrateful Korans” and how America should leave Korea… blah blah blah.

  I’m not sure if Homeboy is a plot by some wannabe Pyongyang Sally or some jerkoff in USFK “leadership” who wants to divert attention… but here is the deal…

  Through ignoring the idiots until they go away and targeted abuse of fools who actually respond to their manufactured emotionally-manipulative nonsense, I’m going to help refocus the conversations here back on the posted topics.

  Now, debate on America’s role in Korea is a valid topic… either in a related posting or an open thread… but not in places where USFK’s curfew or response to poor order and indiscipline are involved.

  Don’t believe me? Try me.

• Homeboy
  3:39 pm on October 10th, 2011 66

  #64…. Chickenshit… You are very entertaining…. Who do you think you are? Refocusing the topic? Ha ha…. The focus is on what average Americans want …. Overwhelming Americans demand withdrawl of American troops from S Korea… And average Americans dislike Koreans…. For their ungrateful attitudes…. So what if horny kids raped underaged Korean girls… They needed it… I never knew there was massage parlor in Yongsan Garrison…you should reinstate massage parlor in Yongsan Garrison…. Have strip shows every night by 18 year old Korean whores? Have a good time…

• JoeC
  4:31 pm on October 10th, 2011 67

  #61

  Not Kim Jung Il, but very likely the persona of one of our long time posters … in a sock.

• GI Korea
  4:48 pm on October 10th, 2011 68

  JoeC, the IP address is from Korea and is not one that has been used before. I think this is a legitimate new commenter who recently stumbled upon this site due to the recent GI crime issue. I however, put him now on moderation because Homeboy obviously is trolling and trying to get a reaction out of people. If he makes legitimate comments I will approve them to be posted just like with Tom.

• someotherguy
  8:09 pm on October 10th, 2011 69

  @49, Frank

  The US gets a base for land power projection into the Asian Pacific theater of operations. It allows us to provide a constant reminder to China / Russia not to attempt any land grabs. Japan proves to be insufficient for any type of land power projection, the things that make it an ideal Air / Sea power make it completely unsuitable for Land power.

  Which brings the REAL question, why is the USA projecting power anyway. Shouldn’t we all be back home minding our own business. And once there was a time when the USA did exactly that, we minded out own business and stayed out of foreign affairs. We got dragged into two of the largest and most destructive wars the world’s ever known, and it happened within a single generation. There would of been a third World War between Russia / China and Western Europe had the US not changed it’s official policy. Instead of Russia and China invading Western Europe we got a protracted cold war full of miniature conflicts, Korea happened to be one of them. China hasn’t yet attempted to annex Japan / South Korea / Vietnam / Cambodia / Laos into the Divinely Just Chinese Empire under a perceived destiny to bring their great holy wisdom to the world, by fire if need be. Russia has actually diminished as the Soviet Union crumbled apart with all it’s satellite members cheering. Current Russia is desiring to return to it’s glory days and has places like the Ukraine and Georgia VERY nervous. They don’t to be forcibly made members of the great Russian empire.

  So yes, the USA does get something from having base’s in other countries. It prevents another aggressive imperial super power from being formed and deciding it’s gonna attempt to rule the world. Such super powers would never get past the formative stages.

  This is all provided we get the hell out of the middle east. Those people have no aspirations to world domination, they just want to be left alone to kill each other for the next few hundred years.

• Homeboy
  8:46 pm on October 10th, 2011 70

  #70, In regards to your post, I have following comment:

  1. The Americans in general are brain washed that their country is something of a benevolent Power… which is furthest from the truth.

  2. The US is the only remaining Superpower in this world. It used to be a colonial power as well… still is… ruling over Hawaiian people annexing it and making it Aloha State…

  3. You have an innate need to rule over others… if you relinquish your role as the Superpower then, China, Russia, will take over the torch… Just try…

• Glans
  9:01 pm on October 10th, 2011 71

  someotherguy, should we abandon Israel?

• Homeboy
  9:29 pm on October 10th, 2011 72

  #71, good point… if it weren’t for Israel, Americans would never had to become involved in Middle East in the first place…

  Then… there would be no nine-eleven, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and no deaths of thousands of precious lives of American servicemen who gave their lives for….

  NOTHING… it seems for now… terrible…

• Leon LaPorte
  11:56 pm on October 10th, 2011 73

  “You have an innate need to rule over others… if you relinquish your role as the Superpower then, China, Russia, will take over the torch… Just try…”

  So, I guess the answer you must ask yourself, even though you loathe the US, is would Russia or China make better or more benevolent masters. Go ahead, think about it, be honest with yourself.

  Power abhors a vacuum.

• Homeboy
  12:37 am on October 11th, 2011 74

  General Laporte,

  Frankly, I don’t see any difference among China, Russia, nor the U.S.

  They are all the same… But, when it comes to economic benefits

  China tops the list, then the U.S., and lastly, Russia…

  If Americans relieves themselves of the U.N. responsibility which is still valid to this day, then naturally, S. Korea would come under the wings of Chinese Empire…

  Naturally, if Korea goes, then the whole Western Pacific would be under Chinese sphere of influence… but only after the 2nd Sino-Japanese War which is highly likely to occur. Whereby Chinese power would overwhelm the Japanese and Chinese would virtually kick out American Navy from the area. Taiwan would naturally become part of Greater China and there you go…

  Pax Sino century had begun…

• Homeboy
  1:02 am on October 11th, 2011 75

  #73,

  “So, I guess the answer you must ask yourself, even though you loathe the US, is would Russia or China make better or more benevolent masters. Go ahead, think about it, be honest with yourself.

  Power abhors a vacuum.”

  Hmm… I don’t think Americans made good masters… after all, the GIs have been raping Korean girls for many years… sexual exploitation of Korean women were and still is inexcusable…I’m quite surprised you consider yourself as master?

  Anyway, having said that, if economic power is base for who makes for benevolent “master”

  I believe China will top the list, then the U.S., then Russia…

  But, as U.S. economy falters and other emerging market gets bigger, significance of American market will diminish.

  Currently, China is the biggest trading partner for S. Korea and N. Korea.

  Chinese tourists spend big Dollars on buying up Korean goods.

  Who is the benevolent master? I’ll take Chinese over you anyday…

• Leon LaPorte
  3:52 am on October 11th, 2011 76

  “Who is the benevolent master? I’ll take Chinese over you anyday…”

  Cool. Best learn to keep your mouth shut under the ChiCOM-kapitalists. …and remember: at least in America, when we execute you, we don’t charge your family for the bullet.

  …and my apologies for the hundreds of thousand of Korean girls who have been raped by GI’s. One is a tragedy, a million a statistic.

  Oh, and wait until the one child rule (which I agree was necessary) causes their cheap labor to dry up in a few more years. They must either quickly upgrade their production, much like Japan in the late 60′s or Korea in the late 80′s, or growth will reverse. They only have about a 5 year window.

  Good night, Orbit-Tom-Jung-Il.

• ChickenHead
  4:11 am on October 11th, 2011 77

  Leon, I truly thought you were too smart to fall into this jerkoff’s suckertrap.

  I thought wrong.

  Certainly, upon retrospect, you can recognize that anybody who promotes the off-topic nonsense Homeboy has been spewing is either smarter then you and messin’ with you to provoke a huffy response… or is simply too dumb to be worthy of your superior intellegence and more valuable time.

  If we collectively ignore it, it will go away like they always do.

  Back on topic… sorta…

  Anyone want to put money on the date of the first gay sexual assault in USFK, both GI on GI and GI on twinky Korean… with double payout if it causes further curfew or alcohol restrictions?

• Jungleface
  4:40 am on October 11th, 2011 78

  What I don’t understand is why won’t Ban Ki Moon, Secretary General of the U.N., who is a Korean himself, seem to involve himself in Inter-Korean relations? He seems more interested in the benefits of working for the U.N., such as living it up in Manhattan, sending his kids to Ivy League Uni., traveling the world for free to make appearances, etc. Appearances, appearances, what Korea is good at.

  Bottom line, U.S. leaves S.K., S.K. falls apart within a few years. It happened when Japan left S.K. It will happen if the U.S. leaves. Korea is unable to remain truly autonomous.

  Again, why won’t Ban Ki Moon involve himself? Seems he would be the ideal candidate to be a the forefront of the ongoing Korean conflict. Just a thought.

  And S.K. loves him. They feel accomplished because of him.

• Jungleface
  4:49 am on October 11th, 2011 79

  Anybody who feels Korea would “choose” to be occupied by China is a complete idiot.

  Anybody who feels that Korea would do fine on their own without the U.S. on their land is a complete idiot.

  Anybody who feels that Korean taxpayers subsidize the U.S. presence in their country, well, I don’t need to say it again.

  Check the CIA World Fact book to find out how much of the SK GDP is spent on military expenditures in their country. It’s low. Still can’t find info. on how much the U.S. has to pay year after year. It’s ridiculous.

  No, I don’t think all Koreans are rude, arrogant, etc. Sorry to sound extreme.

  Most of the good people I met from South Korea, I met in California, and they will never return. I honestly can’t blame them.

• Ralph
  7:05 am on October 11th, 2011 80

  Chickenhead, you are one extremely funny and smart guy, but you are also the last one who should be preaching to anyone about hijacking a thread. For four or five years now, I have watched you hijack every thread you possibly could in an effort to bash USFK leadership because you are bitter that your club in Songtan was placed off limits. Get over it. What are you doing to lead by the way anyway Chickenhead? Is your idea of leading hiding out in a foreign land bitching about everything back home in the US on a freaking blog? Why don’t you go back home and LEAD? Step up to the plate and use your talents to help your country instead of bitching about everything on this (mostly) cesspool of a blog.

• Tom
  7:36 am on October 11th, 2011 81

  Korea will do just fine without the 20,000 American troops.

  Korea will be part of the Asian bloc of countries projecting its economic and military power. The day is coming when the Western powers making up all the economic/political policies for their own benefits, is coming to an end.

• JoeC
  9:10 am on October 11th, 2011 82

  “Who is the benevolent master? I’ll take Chinese over you anyday…”

  Maybe … But how would we know? Because, like life after death, after you pass into that realm, your ability to freely communicate with us here on the internet and confirm that it’s so great will be taken away.

• Chris Hiler
  9:18 am on October 11th, 2011 83

  I’m not understanding the need to get shitfaced drunk in an effort to blow off steam or have a good time. I guess I’m just the odd one out here but the best times I remember in Korea are not blurry memories of yelling over blasting music in some black light lit club…though I did some of that as well. Its was the sober mornings, especially just after a PT run and shower that I remember most fondly. The interactions I had in local shops and such. When it came to the club scene..its was more of a “oh here we go again” repetition of the all too familiar. I burnt out on that club scene early on. I wish I had spent more time taking some of he organized tours that were available but I don’t remember hearing much about them.

• Retired GI
  11:26 am on October 11th, 2011 84

  82, good points. While I can’t say that my BEST times were those following a PT run, in the SHOWER (what were you DOING in those commune showers?) , I did go on most of the USO tours offered. Enjoyed each and every one of them. I also enjoyed visiting my friends at the bars in the ville. They were much *easier* to visit than the USO tours. They always enjoyed hearing about the places I visited and seeing the pictures that I took. Anything was better than staying in the barracks room, as I recall. On my way out the gate to the ville, I would usually stop and visit with the ahjuma that owned the grocery store. I only understood about half of what she would say, but I learned more that way. Sometimes I would buy some Bananas for the girls at the Olympia Club. I usually got there early, before it got so busy. I really enjoyed passing out the Bananas to the dancers — and watching as they eat them. Always made me smile.

• ChickenHead
  12:22 pm on October 11th, 2011 85

  Ralph,

  Hmmmm…

  “Chickenhead, you are one extremely funny and smart guy”

  Well… gosh… thanks.

  “but”

  But? But? But what? There is no “but”. That statement stands alone! There was nothing more you needed to type.

  “you are also the last one who should be preaching to anyone about hijacking a thread.”

  Aaaaahhh… I see.

  “For four or five years now, I have watched you hijack every thread you possibly could in an effort to bash USFK leadership”

  Uh-huh… USFK leadership is doing such a perpetually bang-up job in every area they involve themselves…

  …so everything I have ever written is composed of lies which are completely misguided, only classifiable as bashing, and points out no truths which would make the military and America more efficient and successful?

  On my part, is an apology of some sort in order?

  Perhaps I simply fail to recognize your superior viewpoint concerning the established merits of blatant corruption, counterproductive programs, emphasis on meaningless political rather than practical considerations, careerism over service, placing those who do the most work at the bottom of any hierarchy of considerations… as well as open and institutionalized fraud, waste, and abuse on a shocking scale.

  I spoke the truth or I did not.

  Counter my sincere message with facts and counter arguments or resign yourself to quietly accepting these uncomfortable truths.

  Your self-created concerns over perceived motivations have absolutely no effect on the content of the message.

  Thinking otherwise simply demonstrates inferior reasoning skills.

  “because you are bitter that your club in Songtan was placed off limits.”

  Years ago, everyone responsible for that either went to jail, got their career halted, or are now retired… some, after a final promotion… drat.

  My program to overcome USFK’s tendency to mindlessly and self-destructively close ranks, and expose these wrong-doers, is long over. I no longer give a funk.

  In many ways, USFK has changed… and those currently running USFK are not related to those in the past in any way…

  …though many of the same dishonest practices which affected me at that time now affect others… from CCK-shafted contractors to the American taxpayers.

  But I have moved on to other more productive, though not nearly as fun, things… and even manage to run a much nicer bar once a week that isn’t a sausagefest.

  But it doesn’t matter. Even if the Songtan bar was still open, there would be no fun and no money. Songtan is not the same and will likely never be. I am both fantastically thrilled and incredibly sad to have caught it at the tail end of its glory…

  …and it has been a blessing rather than a misfortune to be gone at almost exactly the right time… as it has allowed me to move on while so many are still there… brushing away an almost-repressed tear as they calculate their dwindling finances, reminisce fondly of the Good Old Days, and speak with increasingly unsure hopefulness of But Yongsan Is Coming.

  Truly, truly, truly depressing…

  …especially considering that, in a world with so little sincere fun and so much manufactured hard work, it was all killed for no real gain, and a good deal of real loss, only to satisfy the political-correct-based careerism and the religious perversions of a few “leaders”.

  I recently went to Songtan and a building owner who remembered my success offered me a FREE bar. No key money, no interior premium, 500,000 won per month rent for the first year with a rise to 800 if I decide to stay, an 80+ million won interior including all furniture for FREE… just bring a hard disk full of music and open the doors. But no way. You would have to be a special place to make it… and if you were special, everybody would be gunning for you… starting on the inside of the Main Gate.

  Bad places die, good places go bad, and new places quietly start up. Things change and successful people change with them. That is all over.

  The only bitterness I have over Songtan is that the memory of what it was has been tarnished by the reality of what it is… needlessly… by those who have made a career and lifestyle of being spoilers for personal gain.

  Don’t confuse my current hassling of corruption and mismanagement in USFK with anything other than self-amusement.

  I live on the local economy surrounded by accomplished and interesting Korean friends… but we share no common experiences such as can be found here. And they would neither understand nor appreciate the intense political griping, delightful knucklehead smackdowns, or the diick and fart jokes I must repress in daily conservative Korean life but allow myself the dark pleasure of expressing in this one little corner of the Web to keep my American-based sanity.

  Perhaps if you understand me, you will be less hateful.

  And, besides, think about it…

  …of all the criticism of USFK I have written, is there anything which doesn’t concern valid issues which would strengthen America and its military if properly addressed?

  Complaining about or hoping to repress my sincere criticism seems to make YOU the enemy of America’s success.

  “What are you doing to lead by the way anyway Chickenhead?”

  Hmmm… as I am not a leader in USFK, I’m not sure this refocusing of the topic to MY leadership characteristics has any real point.

  But I’ll go along for a moment.

  Since I pay some American taxes rather than live off of them… and, since I have not taken any oath to uphold any values or perform any duties… nor am I responsible for any public funds… and I have not committed to uphold the honor and traditions of any organization or institution, I’m not sure what you would like me to do?

  Do you have any suggestions on how I should “lead the way”?

  As a private citizen, the best I can do, short of voting with my trigger finger, is to speak the truth as I see it, modify my thinking for the better when intelligent people give me reason to, and encourage others to do the same… with the hope that some part of my message will influence or support a larger movement which represents the Will of the People against the dishonesty of the few who have clawed their way to the top through incorrect actions based on insincere motivations.

  “Is your idea of leading hiding out in a foreign land bitching about everything back home in the US on a freaking blog?”

  Well… as per my previous paragraph, I guess that is a start.

  America is a great, great idea that has been deviously led astray. The only way to get it back on the right track is for the citizens to decide what is right and wrong through open conversation and debate… and then, as a unified group, force their demands upon the government… or, in this local case, force their demands for honesty, transparency, and accountability from USFK leadership through recognition and public exposure of incorrect actions.

  Short of being a “community organizer”, there is little I can do in the United States that I cannot do “hiding out” in Korea.

  “Why don’t you go back home and LEAD? Step up to the plate and use your talents to help your country instead of bitching about everything on this (mostly) cesspool of a blog.”

  Very well. What would you like to suggest that I do to lead?

  Will you join me in my sit-in at the White House gate? Would you raise funds and vote for me if I run for congress? Would you like to join my church as my first disciple… perhaps upgradable to apostle, based on attitude and performance?

  But you are right. I should be leading.

  I have known what must be done since I was 8 years old and I have a better, but not yet perfect, idea how to do it. I just need some high-quality followers to fill out the details… and they are very, very hard to find. But not impossible… if I get motivated.

  I just hate the thought of uprooting my comfortable life and devoting myself entirely to pursue it… as most effort will be to fight against the great number of people who, for selfish and misguided reasons, will attack the truth I speak to them…

  …people like you whose first reaction is to lash out at real or imaginary faults in the messenger rather than discuss an obviously valid yet uncomfortable message.

  And finally…

  Its too bad you think GI Korea’s fine blog, frequented by a fine group of multi-opinioned commenters is a cesspool.

  I don’t always agree with everybody here… and I may hassle them mercilessly into a defeated silence when I disagree… but they mostly have a level of intelligence and experience that exceeds the level of commenter at many other blogs. That is nice.

  Feel free to comment on any of my comments here.

• Ole Tanker
  3:34 pm on October 11th, 2011 86

  BRAVO CHICKENHEAD!

  “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!!!

  The Constitution did not specify WHERE we had to seek it.

• Retired GI
  5:05 pm on October 11th, 2011 87

  Well said CH. Well said indeed.

  I too, remember the better days, at least for me, in Korea. Granted, I was on the other side of the Bar. Perhaps we spoke once or twice, but there is no way to know.

• someotherguy
  6:50 pm on October 11th, 2011 88

  @71,

  I’m on the fence on that one. On one hand I see there is definitely a hostile threat to Israel, and we’re partially to blame (creation of the country with little respect for ethnic lines). On the other hand I think they’ve become too comfortable having us in their back pocket. I was mostly referring to Iraq / Afghanistan. And I hope to hell our involvement in Libya is over with. Having a few SF guys teaching / training is fine, having brigades out on patrol is not fine.

  And while Korea / Japan would not choose to be rules by China, without a strong nuclear armed military power to oppose China they would exert their will and black mail both countries. China’s already declared that it owns the ocean, how long until they start putting military vessels to enforce their control of the sea lanes. How long until they start charging tariffs and embargo’s on goods bound to / from the USA, Korea, Japan or anyone the Chinese don’t like. Back when China and Japan got into their little shouting match China deliberately blocked shipments of rare earth metals to Japan, materials that Japan’s high tech economy relays on to function.

• usinkorea
  7:14 pm on October 11th, 2011 89

  Tom isn’t really a Korean-Korean, nor is Homeboy, but they do represent a trend that was common at least ten years ago: I talked to many adults (who actually lived in Korea) who said with pride that China would soon be the sole superpower replacing the US.

  If you asked them follow up questions, they would soon start to voice concerns about what that really meant for Korea’s future economic and military security. But, their knee-jerk reaction was to fantasize about a “Great Yellow Hope” based on regional/racial longing.

  The interesting thing is — a good many of the “collaborators” with the Japanese South Korean society despises today —- thought exactly the same way back in the early 1900s through the colonial period: First, it was the Russian devils who East Asia had to unite against. Then it was the American devils.

  What we see Tom and Homeboy doing is the same thing: Pining for a unified Asia to “stand up to” the non-Asian b@stards. If that means Korea has to be under the (socially) communist Chinese, so be it.

• Tom
  8:20 pm on October 11th, 2011 90

  “How long until they start charging tariffs and embargo’s on goods ”

  China won’t do that against Asian countries, but if there’s a war of power blocs (Asia which comprises of China+Korea+Japan vs greedy, rapidly declining and increasingly desperate and frustrated Western powers), then I can see Asians get together and enforce that embargo.

  I support America out of Korea, and America out of Asia altogether. You guys have no business butting in the noses of Asia, especially at a time when your country is bankrupt.

• Jungleface
  1:11 am on October 13th, 2011 91

  Tom is living in a fantasy world that only exists on the internet.

  China is at a higher risk of losing stability than the U.S. or Europe are. Pretty soon, the Chinese will eat their own government.

  People like Tom make me laugh and glad that I can think outside of the box and not regurgitate idealistic hatred which was forced down my throat from an early age.

  Tom, where are you from, and where are you now? I’m just curious.

  -Non Asian white boy American in China.

• Ralph
  6:50 pm on October 14th, 2011 92

  I’m not here to debate you Chickenhead. I’m making observations is all. You’re an exceptional thinker and rare talent, and to see you wasting your time here on the Kblogs constantly picking away at USFK leadership and other petty issues seems like a waste to me. It is your life however, so do as you please and I wish you luck. For what it’s worth, I’d follow you into battle. If you have a calling, follow it and don’t look back.

  Cesspool may have been a bit too harsh for the blog in general and my humble apologies to Charlie, but some of the people who comment here are real pieces of work.

• Retired NCO
  11:18 am on January 7th, 2012 93

  The problem is not the USFK leadership nor the curfew. The problem is with a select few soldiers who are away from mommy and daddy the first time and in an another country. They are Americans! They’ve no respect for the locals. The rapes and club burnings were by junior enlisted guys under 25 years old. They’re just stupid.

• Retired GI
  12:53 pm on January 7th, 2012 94

  I believe Retired NCO

• Retired GI
  12:59 pm on January 7th, 2012 95

  Don’t know what happend above. As I was saying, I believe that #93 Retired NCO nailed it very well.

  If so, then the Military “leadership” is guilty of being very lasy in using this GROUP PUNISHMENT. But it isn’t the first time.

  They should just enclose the bases in a DOME and only open it for supply drops.

 

RSS feed for comments on this post | TrackBack URI

Name (required)

Mail (will not be published) (required)

Website

Notify me of followup comments via e-mail

Notify me of new posts by email.

By submitting a comment here you grant this site a perpetual license to reproduce your words and name/web site in attribution.