By Robert Koehler has posted a translation from a Joong Ang Ilbo article that discusses how club owners in Hongdae are split on whether to allow GI’s into their establishments:
The JoongAng Ilbo reports that clubs in the Hongdae area are divided over whether to accept US military personnel into their establishments.
The JoongAng went to Hongdae last Saturday to look around. On one poster advertising “Club Day” was written “No entry for US military or minors.” A staffer checking IDs at one club that belonged to the Club Culture Association said since the recent sexual assaults by GIs, they’ve been cracking down more strongly against GIs entering the clubs. And indeed, the reporter didn’t see any GIs.
At another club belonging to the association, however, there were a lot of foreigners. Even a short-haired white dude who looked like a soldier got in easily. A staffer their said they don’t block GIs from entering, and GIs have never started trouble in their club.
Unlike the clubs of Itaewon and Gangnam, the clubs of Hongdae have banned GIs since November 2002. This, according to the JoongAng Ilbo, was because crimes committed by GIs climbed as more and more GIs went to Hongdae after its club culture caught on. Choe Jeong-han, the chairman of the Club Culture Association, told the JoongAng that there were too many crimes committed by GIs like sexual assaults and sexual harassment, and there was a sense of crisis that the entire neighborhood could collapse if things continued. Choe said all roughly 10 clubs that are members of the association agreed to ban GIs. [Marmot's Hole]
You can read more of the article at the link but what a joke if these people think drunken fights and sexual assaults are only committed by GI’s. As I have shown repeatedly on this site the overall crime rate for GI’s is lower per capita than the Korean average. Also unless something has changed recently isn’t the Hongdae area supposed to be off limits to GI’s anyway? If so may be the club owners can get LTG Johnson to walk around over there instead of Itaewon. ;-)
She hasn’t seen...
7:47 am on October 19th, 2011 1
There is a difference between criminal behavior and irritating behavior.
GIs work hard and GIs play hard… and they SHOULD play hard. They should drink and fight and funk and act like drunken crazymen doing stupid-but-ultimately-harmless stuff.
And they should do it under supervision by those wise enough to recognize when to crack down, when to offer guidance, and when to step back and let the kids get the necessary life experience that allows adults to recognize good and bad decisions.
This used to happen to varying degrees… so GIs used to party in the villes.
Now, the villes are controlled and regulated and policed to the point where there is nothing there for a guy looking to blow off steam except the loss of a stripe.
So, GIs have moved into Real Korea.
But they are loud and sometimes travel in a pack… frequently with a faux-thug attitude… TRYING to draw attention… especially from girls who many think are looking for a good time with an American just like in the Vietnam war movies.
There is no shortage of cultural misunderstanding and general irritation…
…but that is not criminal so there are no statistics to point to.
Crimes that are committed… opportunistic vandalism, theft and shoplifting in a culture that doesn’t instinctively protect against it, low-level sexual harassment… are not reported.
When GIs come to visit me in Real Korea, I have to explain that they can’t do the stuff that, even now, is considered semi-acceptable in the over-restricted villes where the Koreans understand the GI mind… talking to normal Korean girls like bargirls, staring and laughing at poor/funny-looking/Songtan Sally-style women on the street, ten guys crowding into a shop with “Yo, ajashi!”, “SPEAK ENGLISH? NO? NO ENGLISH? Damn.”, constant swearing which Real Koreans also understand but don’t grasp the context, goofing around and standing on public benches or other very non-acceptable Korean behavior, etc., etc., etc.
One or two guys is not really a problem… except for hitting on the girls as if they were as easy as bargirls and mistaking their friendliness for interest… but 4 guys sometimes gets a bit rowdy after a few drinks in an atmosphere where Big Mama USFK ain’t around to watch.
For drunken fights and sexual assaults, GIs would certainly be minority perpetrators… but they would be the most obvious and most remembered… and have the largest impact on the Alliance.
USFK really needs to encourage GIs to stay in the villes for their partying… where they can be supervised but not hassled… guided rather than punished…
…and led by example.
And that “leadership” thing is where the whole plan starts to break down.
8:25 am on October 19th, 2011 2
Virginia and EVERY city in the USA should’ve placed signs saying NO KOREANS, THERE HAVE BEEN ACCIDENTS BY KOREANS AND KOREAN FEMALE SLAVES(owned by Koreans) BREAKING AMERICAN LAWS. Or, simply Koreans being Koreans so until Koreans stop being Koreans and/or become more like Japanese people then “NO KOREAN ENTRY.”
10:38 am on October 19th, 2011 3
I think CH nailed it. There is so much that is culturally different about the way we express ourselves that misundestandings are the norm. I used to cringe when I saw the “yo yo yo”‘s pointed to ajushis. Or when I saw transactions taking place: “How much? 50,000? Fuck!” And the thugishness, while it’s the street cool swagger back home is just downright threatening to most Koreans who don’t understand the hip hop context, even for the hip hop loving youths.
GIKorea, Hongdae’s been off-limits but I don’t think any MPs are out looking for GIs.
12:06 pm on October 19th, 2011 4
Watch the GI, KO a Korean grandpa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR8p1Dwn918
Sorry Tbone, Koreans in America don’t have this kind of attitude towards their hosts, that you often see in Itaewon with American soldiers.
12:13 pm on October 19th, 2011 5
I think something happens the moment a GI joins the army and the time he’s off to Korea. What makes his ego go up and think Korea is a playground for him to act like what he’s never acted in his life? He would never act like that in America, so why in Korea? Are Koreans just play things for him? Is it too much American movies where the American hero out fights and out toughens the sly Asian enemy?
I’m sorry GI’s. But Koreans respect people who respect back. GI’s have never respected Koreans as a proud people, other then cheap whores, drunks, and play toys. What do you expect?
3:33 pm on October 19th, 2011 6
Dont worry. That sign wont be there in a couple of weeks. You know why. Aww come on you know why. Its a love hate relationship. The money for this bar owner will dry up. They will either open this back up to Soldiers or have to sell it off.
Tbone. It would be the same in the states. If we were to put a sign saying no Koreans because of whatever problem, they would be screaming racism and then the place would have to open back up to Koreans again.
Only difference is what? Oh thats right, were here because of a alliance
Once again I will say this, if the people truly dont want the US in Korea then tell them where the airport and ships are at so we can get out and get on with OUR life.
I am truly sick of all the bashing of Soldiers that is going on around here.
4:03 pm on October 19th, 2011 7
Isn’t Hongdae off limits to the soldiers? In other words, it’s publicity which appeals to the perceived xenophobic sentiment of their clientele.
PS. I’ve been to Hongdae a couple of times…I wasn’t impressed. It’s my least favorite area in Seoul, really. I do remember seeing a few soldiers there, but the few bored American kids that I saw who looked like they were looking for trouble were Korean-American.
4:56 pm on October 19th, 2011 8
It is all insane! You will always hear Koreans saying bad things about the US’s beloved troops. It will happen even when they do not misbehave. Just let North Korea act up and they will be begging those same American soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines to save their economy. You can do a lot to Korean but do not mess with their money.
5:10 pm on October 19th, 2011 9
As far as I know, the Hongdae ban was lifted about a year ago.
6:13 pm on October 19th, 2011 10
Hongdae works so well for queer culture though. They should ban only straight gi’s for sits and giggles
7:04 pm on October 19th, 2011 11
6,
It doesn’t work that way. Typically speaking, U.S. military forces, or foreign English teacher presence in a bar not near any kind of place other than a foreigner-centric type place will ‘make or break’ a venue. This is even more true in a place like Hongdae where every single club has a huge line of kids waiting to get in and party.
I think a big part of this is perception. We as foreigners here are pissed about outright racism and differential treatment, but we do nothing to correct behavior that people see as wrong. We as foreigners are more-or-less accepting of things like tacit rape, inappropriate touching, foreigner-on-foreigner violence and general assy-ness, but then we get upset when we are all cast in the same net when Koreans or the Korean media call us out on our shit. If we want racism and ethnocentrism to end, we need to act like adults and police ourselves and our friends on their behavior. Only then will ridiculous things like curfews or bans from clubs for foreigners end.
8:10 pm on October 19th, 2011 12
The Hongdae area no longer appears on the official Area II off limits list:
http://yongsan.korea.army.mil/DES/Downloads/USAG%20Y%20Off%20Limits%20List%2005%20October%202011.ppt
so I would take that to mean it is not off-limits…
10:37 pm on October 19th, 2011 13
TO Tom – Your characterization is grossly stereotypical. I am not sure how you define “GI”, but when you use it, you seem to be characterizing all US servicemembers – and THAT makes your overgeneralizations lacking in validity. Take away a bit of your emotion and then address the issue objectively.
TO Chickenhead – Your post is probably right on target. I can’t find much fault in your characterizations at all. But one of your conclusions is, in my opinion, off target.
You wrote: “USFK really needs to encourage GIs to stay in the villes for their partying… where they can be supervised but not hassled… guided rather than punished… …and led by example. And that ‘leadership’ thing is where the whole plan starts to break down.”
I think grown adults who have done nothing for which they should be punished ought not be restricted to ANY particular geographical area. What I think USFK needs to do when these young GIs first arrive in Korea is to sit them down in mandatory classes and give them some lessons on Korean culture. Most Americans are good people. But young GIs arrive here in Korea ignorant of the culture, the social norms, etc. Most do not realize their observed behavior is offensive. Face it, here in Korea, the indigenous population will sit there quietly, barely showing anything resembling dissatisfaction, and certainly not go to the proprietor to complain. I mean, have you ever seen a Korean approach an American and suggest that they might want to tone things down a bit? In America, the proprietor of a business establishment that caters to the general public has no problem with that kind of thing. I am not saying it is appropriate behavior, because it clearly is not. But too often the Korean media stokes the fire of misunderstanding by painting GIs as sex-crazed whore mongers. Some are of course, but the vast majority live and shop and function among the Korean population very productively. Others, most notably the young GIs who are probably away from their homes for the first prolonged period of their lives, don’t really know how to act appropriately. I think USFK should prepare them for Korean culture, and not confine them as if they are violent offenders to “protect” them from Korean society.
1:35 am on October 20th, 2011 14
WiesseJ – Tom’s doing it For the Lulz.
Also, I’ve seen employees of a Korean business tell a drunk French woman to calm down or she would have to leave. Yelling 18 in a restaurant is probably a bad idea?
Instead of more classes, I’d give KATUSAs with outgoing personalities money to go out with groups of them for the first couple of months and identify obnoxious behavior.
Seriously though, if English teachers and French women that speak Korean can’t get this stuff right then it’s probably because they were obnoxious people to begin with.
3:44 am on October 20th, 2011 15
#11,
We must act like adults? Patronizing a bit? Most of use regulars here are older and more responsible than you are. Some of us are retirees. So, spare us the ridiculous argument.
Beside, you’re arguing for prejudice because you’re justifying the discrimination.
4:17 am on October 20th, 2011 16
#13, they do hold “classes” for this sort of thing. Or at least they used to. However most of the attendees’ minds are wandering. It’s like the required defensive driving video you had to watch in order to get your driver’s license that some states require. Everyone who’s watched it can’t remember it.
4:26 am on October 20th, 2011 17
By the way, Wiessj, I don’t totally agree with your post but well said in your post on the same topic at the Marmot’s Hole.
6:19 am on October 20th, 2011 18
I agree with you… adults should be treated like adults… which is why I wrote “encouraged” rather than “forced” to stay in the villes.
Average GI Joe is not really the problem… it is just SOME GI Joes that are the problem… as their incorrect actions draw a lot of memorable attention.
The current policies encourage these dirtbags, often in a group, to flee the villes where they can do as they please with little chance of trouble.
By reducing the amount of needlessly manufactured trouble in the villes and allowing GIs to easily find what they are currently agressively looking for in Real Korea, many of the dirtbags would do the easy thing and just stay in the villes… where they would know they could stay out of trouble.
Those who ventured out would likely be those interested in Korea more than sex, alcohol, and drawing street-cred inspired attention… and they would better represent USFK and America.
Currently, careerist, paperwork-generating, box-checking, zero-defect “leadership” has got themselves backed into a corner through short-term thinking schemes such as “cracking down” on alcohol by making everything an alcohol-related incident… which makes more incidents… which requires more time generating bad paperwork and diverting productivity… which means more real and imagined crackdowns… etc.
And everything can be solved by a combination of leaving GIs alone in the villes unless there is a real problem and having leaders act as mentors instead of mommies.
I would agree that GIs could use more cultural education… except good American manners are perfectly acceptable and most differences are both understood and forgiven by Koreans.
The problem is too many GIs aspire to hiphop values and lack refined social skills… and the military currently accepts those values and behaviors while blaming alcohol or other easy targets.
8:55 am on October 20th, 2011 19
Nobody likes to be yelled at “hey yo! yo yo man!”
Nobody likes to be yelled at by total strangers “good day b*tches” while being eye raped.
Act like human beings and they won’t all think all GI’s are d*cks. As soldiers you are representing your country. People are going to judge you based on the uniform you wear and represent, unfair it maybe. But your job title says “United States of America”.
10:12 am on October 20th, 2011 20
Good comment, Tom.
Please speak only these truths and please cease all the nonsense.
1:37 pm on October 20th, 2011 21
Thats how a lot of places were in Germany back in the 80′s and 90′s. Guess the Korean economy really has caught up. Once again, the knuckle head few wrecking it for the decent majority, somethings never change.
1:46 pm on October 20th, 2011 22
#4 it isn’t a US GI, it’s just a drunk jerk beating on another drunk jerk who stole his phone…
7:04 pm on October 20th, 2011 23
Just received this info…..
On 21 October 2011, sometime at or around 2300 to 2400 hours, high-level
representatives from the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, National Police Agency, and the Prosecutors Office will visit Itaewon Police Box.
The purpose for the visit is to hear opinions from Itaewon Police patrol
officers about SOFA matters and how U.S. Military personnel behave in the area.
We have also been told that they might conduct a walk around of the area to see our USFK members in action.
7:33 am on October 21st, 2011 24
I think US servicemembers only make up less than half of the Itaewon bar crowds on weekends. And much less than half after say 2 a.m. The majority of bar patrons are expats from various countries and Koreans.
6:28 am on October 24th, 2011 25
There are definitely cultural differences in how Koreans and Americans perceive what is ethically and morally right.
8:33 am on November 12th, 2011 26
Old article but just wanted to comment.
Being a “GI” myself, I feel these bans are just. I see the GIs in action here and… well you are playing russian roulette if you allow them. It’s not even 5% of the GIs who are bad, I would say around 20-30%. Sure they aren’t considered bad in America, but they definitely don’t respect Korean culture and as such should not be allowed there.
Also, even if not shown, it sickens me when I talk to other GIs and how they feel about the Koreans in general. They act like they are just some kind of sheep to be played with on their usual one year tours here. This percentage is a lot higher, maybe around 70% people think this way. This arrogant racism is disgusting.
~Been here in Korea almost 2 years~
1:24 pm on November 12th, 2011 27
#4 that’s typical soldiers in the us military. just some trailer park trash who joined military because it was their only option out of their miserable lives.
4:43 pm on November 12th, 2011 28
…and Mr. Orbit, do tell us a little of your background and parentage.
Disgusting that you paint all in the service with such a broad brush. If you wrote the same about persons of another type of group, such as race, you’d be shouted down and condemned.
Your comments smack of elitism- or pent-up jealousy. Perhaps it’s what you AREN’T writing…
11:46 pm on November 12th, 2011 29
27 Orbit, I just can’t believe you would be stupid enough to believe what you said in comment #27.
I am farely “typical” of a “Retired GI”. I *returned* to my boyhood home after I did my Military Duty.
I live in a small but nice house in a quiet subdivision. My neighbour and his wife were in the Army. They have two children. The boy is going to college.
I do not recognize what you call a “typical” us Soldier as typical in any way.
But I do grant you that we do have our shair of rude and stupid individuals in the Military.
Just as Korea has its shair of rude and stupid individuals. I’ve seen them. I’ve seen the way (SOME) Korean men abuse their women. I will not call them “typical” of all Korean men. I know that is not true.
5:43 am on November 13th, 2011 30
Orbit… I resent your comment on my former American colleagues..please do not generalize
6:57 am on November 13th, 2011 31
Orbit only knows troll-speak. Taking anything he says seriously is a waste of time.