ROK Drop

Avatar of GI KoreaBy on July 8th, 2012 at 5:28 am

Osan Airbase Personnel Investigated For Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals

» by in: USFK

UPDATE: Via Kimchi GI comes this SBS video of the incident.  When it comes to these videos it is tough to make definitive conclusions when not shown in their full context, so keep that in mind.  Judging just by this news report the people doing the most shoving appeared to be the SP’s.

Anyway apparently from what I can make out from the news clip the SP’s asked the shop owner to move his vehicle and he did move the and then went inside to close his store. The shop owner went back into the store and chased out the remaining customers and then went back outside where the confrontation happened.  It is unclear who started the pushing but I can definitely see the shop owner starting the pushing but that doesn’t give SP’s the right to handcuff and detain the guy.

The SP’s should have stepped back from the guy’s shop and wait for the local police to arrive.  It appears that the SP’s wanted to keep the guy there at the store until the police arrived.  If someone with no law enforcement authority is trying to detain you I could understand why this guy would get pissed off if that is what happened.  I’ll be interested to hear how other people interpret what happened, but that is how it initially seems to me.  More video may convince me otherwise but from what I have seen, I see no reason why the SP’s could not have stepped back from the store and let the Korean police handle it.  If the guy drove off so what, it is better then creating an international incident and it isn’t like the police couldn’t stop by the next day and talk to the guy about his parking habits.

So what does everyone else think?

______________________________________

Via various reader tips comes news that it appears some security forces personnel at Osan AB are in some big trouble:

The Korean government lodged a complaint with the U.S. military over an incident in which American soldiers forcefully put handcuffs on three Korean civilians, officials said Saturday.

On Thursday, U.S. soldiers on duty handcuffed three Korean civilians and tried to haul them into a U.S. base in Pyeongtaek, a provincial city 70 kilometers south of Seoul, after they had scuffles over parking problems.

Korean officials said seven U.S. soldiers involved ran afoul of Korean law.  [Korea Times]

I would think this would be one of the first things that security forces personnel would be briefed on before starting duty that they have no law enforcement authority outside the gate against Korean nationals.  If this report is true, it is the KT after all, the security personnel arrested these Korean nationals for something very petty:

 U.S. troops are allowed to ask civilians to move vehicles parked within 500 meters of an entrance of a U.S. base, but not to make arrests.

According to Pyeongtaek police, the incident began when a team of seven U.S. military police (MP) personnel told a resident to move his car, which was parked within 500 meters of the base. Local authorities were called to the scene.

The man, identified as a 35-year-old Yang, parked outside his music shop, was told to wait for the police outside. But he entered the shop and was then placed in handcuffs.

A man identified as Shin, 42, was handcuffed after protesting the move.

The troops attempted to bring the individuals to the base, during which time Yang’s brother was also cuffed for protesting. The cuffs were removed at the urging of local police.

Over at the Marmot’s Hole he has a report that the Korean national was being a major jerk.  I can definitely see the Korean national being upset since he has probably parked in front of his business for years off loading equipment and now someone is telling him to move his truck.  If the Korean national was being uncooperative the security forces personnel should have just stepped back from the confrontation and waited for the local police to arrive to handle the situation.  You would think after the Osan Shakedown Scandal that the security personnel would be very careful not to create another black eye for the airbase.

Fortunately USFK leadership was quick to respond to what could have turned into a bigger issue with the Korean public if they didn’t quickly apologize for this:

Lt. Gen. Jan-Marc Jouas, deputy commander of United States Forces Korea, bows during a press conference in which he apologized for the recent handcuffing of three South Korean civilians by American troops, at Osan Air Base in Pyeongtaek, Gyeonggi Province, Sunday. / Yonhap

The U.S. Forces Korea (USFK) apologized Sunday for the handcuffing of three Korean civilians by American troops during a dispute over parking outside a U.S. Air Force base in Pyeongtaek, Gyeonggi Province.

USFK Deputy Ccommander Lt. Gen. Jan-Marc Jouas, said in a news conference, “I have ordered a full investigation of this incident. The individuals involved have been suspended, and will not perform their normal duties until the investigation is completed.”

The commander of the 7th U.S. Air Force, which is based in Pyeongtaek apologized, adding, “We are working closely with the Korean National Police, and have provided witness statements as they requested.”

USFK Commander Gen. James Thurman issued a statement of apology.  [Korea Times]

Since these guys were on duty they will not face any Korean prosecution due to the SOFA and it will be up to their leadership at Osan AB to determine if they violated anything in the UCMJ.  At a minimum though these security personnel should be marched down to the music shop and apologize for what they did because if the information reported is true this whole incident could have been avoided if they would have let the local police do their job.

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  • Dr.Yu
    5:58 am on July 8th, 2012 1

    The only time I met an american MP in Songtan was an interesting experience. They look very serious but were very respectful with korean citizens. One of them greeted me with kind words in korean. I can only assume this was an isolated incident.

  • Sorry about handcuffing Korean nationals and trying to drag them back to base: USFK
    5:59 am on July 8th, 2012 2

    [...] GI Korea writes: I can definitely see the Korean national being upset since he has probably parked in front of his [...]

  • Dave
    6:00 am on July 8th, 2012 3

    “Let the local police do their job”??

    And what exactly is their job? I’ve very seldom ever seen the local police here “do their job”.

    Unless of course, hiding in side streets watching DMB on their navigation or chatting on their phones constitutes doing their job.

    You never see them pulling anyone over. You never see them enforcing any traffic laws, which they are charged with enforcement. Driving or anything that deals with motor vehicles is complete anarchy here. It’s a do what you will and want driving society here in Korea.

    Eventually it will have to change.

  • Teadrinker
    6:01 am on July 8th, 2012 4

    “Over at the Marmot’s Hole he has a report that the Korean national was being a major jerk.”

    You mean the part about how he was telling them to eff off because they were disrupting his business (as he should because they have no authority off base)?

  • Jack
    6:03 am on July 8th, 2012 5

    Why does it have to change Dave? It’s Korea so let them worry about it.

  • TWOCENTS
    6:22 am on July 8th, 2012 6

    Whether the KNPs do their job or not, our SPs/MPs don’t have jurisdiction off post. That’s just common sense.

  • Retired GI
    6:53 am on July 8th, 2012 7

    America has become very good at the “apology”. As GI Korea seems to know, this is a VERY important skill.

    Again, America is seen as a paper tiger.

    Let me get this right; MP/SP have no power outside the gate. Correct?

    Then why are they outside the gate?

    I know. I’m using common sense again. ;-)

    Is SOP a lost art at Osan?

  • JoeC
    7:24 am on July 8th, 2012 8

    Hmmm … I just happen to be in the Songtan vlie right now. It got my attention that there were KNP walking the strip but I hadn’t even noticed there was no town patrol on the streets … until I read this.

  • CHIMO
    7:24 am on July 8th, 2012 9

    @7, Well they still have to perform off-base patrols for anything that involves US soldieres, or if it involves Korean nationals, to refer to the KNP.

    I find that Korean police is different than in the West in that they will do the minumum necessary to keep the public peace. They are not out to punish offenders. If they are called up for a drunk ahjussi or people fighting, the police will usually plead with them to all go home, or if there are still conflicts, play a mediating role between the parties. Most do not even carry services arms.

    Arrests/criminal investigations are done by police detectives who are more hard-core and don’t joke around. Hence handcuffing for something as minor as parking violations would be unheard of and korean nationals would be fuming if the arrest was done by KNP. Even more compounding is that it was done by US MP.

    TBH, I like the the Korean police better than many of their counterparts in the WEst who are power-tripping and authorative. Case in point, the US MP in this case just made an unnecessary situation out of what is basically a non-issue.

  • JoeC
    7:45 am on July 8th, 2012 10

    @8

    Correction: still has town patrol

  • JoeC
    7:54 am on July 8th, 2012 11

    Tomorrow, if I am sober enough or care, I may write some about my observations of the historical evolution of the roles of the KNP and US military policing/ patrolling off base over the years of my time here.

  • Seoul Guy
    8:11 am on July 8th, 2012 12

    Jeez.. Isn’t it really a common sense that MPs do not have jurisdiction over Korean nationals? What would make US Army different from the Jap Imperial Army that occupied korea some 70 years ago?

  • Seoul Guy
    8:20 am on July 8th, 2012 13

    USFK = Jap Imperial Army = Chinese People’s Liberation Army… Now I know we are being occupied by the Yankees.

  • Seoul Guy
    8:20 am on July 8th, 2012 14

    I hate American MPs

  • Seoul Guy
    8:22 am on July 8th, 2012 15

    There should be a massive demonstration in front of Yongsan maingate.. Blockade the whole damn area.

  • Seoul Guy
    8:29 am on July 8th, 2012 16

    No… there should be massive simultaneous rallies all across South Korea. So, that’s how you thought about Koreans? Someone you can cuff and drag them around like dogs? All USFK MPs beware…

  • Seoul Guy
    8:30 am on July 8th, 2012 17

    #7, Half assed apologies aren’t good enough…

  • tbonetylr
    8:32 am on July 8th, 2012 18

    “The man, identified as a 35-year-old Yang, parked outside his music shop, was told to wait for the police outside. But he entered the shop and was then placed in handcuffs.”

    Why doesn’t the American MP’s just use their cell phone video cameras, you know, just like Koreans do when someone is doing something wrong?

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    8:33 am on July 8th, 2012 19

    @3 – If the KT article is accurate the security forces personnel should have just stepped away from the situation and let the Korean police handle it. I once had to go to the front gate of a camp to deal with a taxi driver that said a soldier stiffed him. I checked the meter and he did not run it. The soldier told me that halfway through what should have been a 3500 won ride he demanded $20 for the ride or the soldiers would have to get out and miss curfew.

    So when they got to the camp they refused to pay $20. I told the guy it was his fault for not running the meter and to move his cab. The cab driver got confrontational and even started trying to do the ajushi push to provoke me. I did not push back or try to restrain the guy, I simply walked to the guard shack and told the Young Korean police draftees to call their supervisor to handle the situation. Their supervisor arrived and listened to what happened and told the cab driver he should of run the meter and that if he did not move the cab he would be arrested. The cab driver was pissed but he moved the cab and there was no international incident.

    I can easily imagine this guy in Osan getting confrontational and pushing the security forces personnel. However unless these guys were assaulting them with a weapon like a baseball bat I see no reason to handcuff and detain these people. Based on the information available it seems to me they should have just If the KT article is accurate the security forces personnel should have just stepped away from the situation and let the Korean police handle it. I once had to go to the front gate of a camp to deal with a taxi driver that said a soldier stiffed him. I checked the meter and he did not run it. The soldier told me that halfway through what should have been a 3500 won ride he demanded $20 for the ride or the soldiers would have to get out and miss curfew.

    So when they got to the camp they refused to pay $20. I told the guy it was his fault for not running the meter and to move his cab. The cab driver got confrontational and even started trying to do the ajushi push to provoke me. I did not push back or try to restrain the guy, I simply walked to the guard shack and told the young Korean police draftees to call their supervisor to handle the situation. Their supervisor arrived and listened to what happened and told the cab driver he should of run the meter and that if he did not move the cab he would be arrested. The cab driver was pissed but he moved the cab and there was no international incident.

    I can easily imagine this guy in Osan getting confrontational and pushing the security forces personnel. However unless these guys were assaulting them with a weapon like a baseball bat I see no reason to handcuff and detain these people. Based on the information available it seems to me they should have just stepped back from the situation and let the police handle it.

    The Korean police get criticized quite a bit but every time I have had to deal with them I have had no issues and they do a good job of diffusing situations like this. Every time I have had to deal with them I have had no issues and they do a good job of diffusing situations like this.

  • Stephen
    8:53 am on July 8th, 2012 20

    Diffusing situations?

    Yeah, they let it diffuse all over the peninsula.

  • Get your facts straight!
    9:05 am on July 8th, 2012 21

    First off, all you uninformed monday morning quarterbacks have no idea what really happened. The SP’s were waiting for the worthless KNP to arrive. While they were waiting they were pushed so the SP’s did what any REASONABLE OFFICER would do.

    Go look up how SP’s are trained. They are taught to follow a Use of Force Matrix. When a person pushes you that is considered Assault. When a military police member is assaulted that usually mean you get put in handcuffs regardless of who you are. Now as they were STILL waiting for KNP to show up, the crowd was getting increasingly hostile. So once again for officer safety purposes they moved the personnel back to the main gate. Everything that happened on that night happens all the time down there.

    USFK while performing off base patrol duties have the authority to detain Korean nationals if they present a threat. So you can stop arguing that point.

  • parker
    9:20 am on July 8th, 2012 22

    @9

    I completely agree. I do get annoyed when I see someone flagrantly breaking the law in front of police and having nothing done about it (especially while driving or whenever safety is an issue), but I do, in general, much prefer the Korean police to the overly aggressive American ones. It’s nice to see some thought put into the intent of the law rather than the letter of it.

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    9:29 am on July 8th, 2012 23

    @21 – Like I mentioned in comment #19 I could easily imagine the store owner doing the ajushi push. This is something I have seen cab drivers in 2ID do like I already described. After getting pushed they should have just stepped away from the situation. Clearly the ajushi was trying to provoke an incident before the KNP arrived and SP’s fell for it. The ajushi push is oldest trick in the book to try before KNP’s arrive.

    Also SP’s are not law enforcement personnel when dealing with Koreans. What they did if the reports are accurate was boneheaded and not reasonable. SP’s should not think the rules of force they would use on servicemembers should also be used on Koreans off post.

  • I Agree with # 21
    10:03 am on July 8th, 2012 24

    I agree with commenter #21… get your facts straight!!!! I think it’s funny that none of you were there that night and had no clue what really happened. SP’s are trained and if you’ve been to Korea, you know that KNP’s are garbage!!! The civilians abuse and hit the KNP’s… While the SP’s were waiting for the KNP’s they were constantly getting assaulted by the civilians so they restrained him for personal safety reasons as they should have… get it together and get your facts straight!!!

  • CHIMO
    10:13 am on July 8th, 2012 25

    @23 – I agree with most of what you said, but I dont think the ajussi was trying to provoke an incident. It’s most likely the confucian/Korean thing about not taking orders from ‘young punks’ as older Koreans would see. Add to the fact that this happened in front of his own business, American MP’s involved, likely a language barrier, and possibly the guy not know why they were asking the truck be moved.. etc- and you have this situation here.

    @21 – Police in Korea are not like in the West. Korean police will take incredible amount of abuse (getting sweared at, shoved, etc). It is part of Korean society. Most Korean men have done their military service and view the policemen young kids. There is no equivalent sense of police authorty as in North America. MPs should have known this and not over-reacted. They should have been trained to diffuse the situation. In general, pushing in Korea is not an ‘assault’ as in the sense used by Americans.

  • @ GI Korea
    10:14 am on July 8th, 2012 26

    …You have lost your marbles! You’re just speculating and should shut up already. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • Get Your Facts Straight!
    10:45 am on July 8th, 2012 27

    Chimo Law Enforcement both military and civilian are trained extensively on how to diffuse situations. However, some situations escalate no matter what the reasonable officer does. Since the situation was not diffused how would you have gone about it?

    GI Korea, google Use of Force, might as well educate yourself before you make rediculous statements like that. SP’s are law enforcement when dealing with Koreans. When a GI steals from a Korean shop and the store owner comes running to the SP should the SP let the GI go and tell the Korean to call KNP? When a GI punches a Korean in the face and the Korean comes running to the SP what then?

    And those same Korean officials who approve the SOFA regulations and the USFK regulations are the same ones who are crying foul now. They authorized it. Not the Americans!

    And one more thing, I dont hear those same Koreans crying foul when they are down in the tax exempt zone shopping.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight
    10:51 am on July 8th, 2012 28

    The SPs didn’t need to be pushed. They needed their a$$es kicked back onto the base where they belong. They have ZERO authority to go off base and start telling Korean nationals what to do in Korea. Regardless of what big gun/little-peepee SPs tell themselves to feel like they count, USKF is not an occupying military and USFK’s rule-of-the-day is not Korean law.

    The reason the KNP is so “worthless” is because they don’t feel the need to come running when a bunch of SP sissies cry that Korean nationals aren’t humbly doing the step and fetch for whatever petty and arbitrary demands Osan AB came up with this week.

    The smart thing would have been to retreat to base BEFORE things got ugly but SPs aren’t really known for being smart. Ammo washouts shouldn’t be given a gun and authority with no real leadership or training, but they are.

    Someday, some wacko Korean nationalist or some aspiring terrorist is going to track down one of the SPs off alone secretly seeing his juicy, crack him upside the head with a pipe and take his gun. Then he will walk up behind the rest of them while they are discussing the finer points of Jersey Shore and have a sack of guns and ammo within minutes.

    Everybody is going to be all shocked and wonder how such a thing could have happened.

    If it isn’t covered up like most SP screwups, everyone will see what a liability they are and maybe they will keep the little ankle-biting SPs on base hassling airmen over reflective belts or other such trivial nonsense.

    So let’s see you explain how American airmen can enforce American military rules on Korean citizens on 100% Korean soil who are not even breaking any Korean laws?

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    10:55 am on July 8th, 2012 29

    @27 – I never said SP’s don’t have law enforcement authority when dealing with servicemembers. Every example you provided involved a servicemember. The incident in question did not involve a servicemember. After the Korean refused to move the car the SP’s should have just step back and let the Korean police handle the situation. Considering that the entire USFK leadership agrees with my position it is pretty obvious who is in the wrong here.

  • what?
    10:57 am on July 8th, 2012 30

    @28 – You are obviously an angry Korean, with decent English skills.

  • Get Your Facts Straight!
    11:07 am on July 8th, 2012 31

    GI Korea, you definitely have a point but like I said earlier the KNP were not there when the incident was going on. I agree, there had to be a better way for this situation to end without incident.

    As for the guy posting on 28, is that really your best educated response?

  • Tom
    11:20 am on July 8th, 2012 32

    Listen you schmucks. Read the fine print in the newspaper:

    “Lee said over the phone that Jouas initially defended the MPs, saying they had acted in self-defense, but changed his stance after being presented with evidence obtained by the police, later apologizing for the incident. ”

    And guess what the evidence is, Mr Violent America?

    The videos are out, and it clearly shows the MP ruthlessly manhandling the poor man just because he refused to move his vehicle which is rightfully parked in front of HIS OWN BUSINESS. What right does USFK have, in arresting people just because they parked their own car in front of their own property?

    And #21, what “hostile crowd”? What, let me guess, the Korean hordes were about to attack the American MP’s, so the MP’s decided to take action to protect themselves and handcuffed three of the hordes? Oh Right. LIARS. The video shows clearly, the Korean man clearly did not do any physical thing to the MP. It’s all on video, guys. You guys can’t squirm out of this by blaming Koreans for this again. Your commander even tried to defend your men, but he couldn’t after the video came out right in front of his face. That’s why he bowed so low and said “we are sorry”. Frankly he should have bowed lower.

    This is the exact example of American attitude when overseas. This is why so many countries hate you. You think you’re kings and gods who have the right to rule over and roll over everyone else in their own homes.

    You know, I wasn’t going to say anything about this, but since you guys started blaming Koreans again, it leaves me no choice but to respond. I’m going to post your responses here, how you’re trying to blame the violence on Koreans, on Korean internet.

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    11:20 am on July 8th, 2012 33

    I have added an update at the top of posting to include a link to a video of the incident. Like I have said before I still see no reason that the SP’s couldn’t have stepped back from the incident and waited for the police to arrive after the guy refused to move the car.

  • Tom
    11:23 am on July 8th, 2012 34

    By the way I got the first part wrong. The man did move his vehicle out of the way, only he didn’t jump to it like Hop Sing, p*ssing off the MP. The MP decided to get smart and give the Korean a hard time and handcuffed him to salvage his pride. This is what is all about, American pride.

  • Tom
    11:24 am on July 8th, 2012 35

    #33 GI Korea, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The man did move his car.

  • Tom
    11:28 am on July 8th, 2012 36

    It makes me laugh the false lies that Americans are perpetuating that the owner of the business attacked the 200+ pound GI’s who are twice the size of the guy in the video.

    This is why CCTV’s are so great, Americans can’t lie out of their teeth when the pictures show a thousand words. LIARS.

    :lol:

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    11:32 am on July 8th, 2012 37

    Tom, I don’t know what you are complaining about, I actually agree with you on this issue as do other people. This has got to be a first. ;-)

  • Sam
    11:33 am on July 8th, 2012 38

    A lot of people looked to be in the wrong to various degrees but it all starts with the SP’s poor approach to the entire situation. It’s no secret that driving habits here are pretty poor and unless those guys just got here a day ago they should’ve known it wasn’t a situation worth elevating. COuld’ve just informed him to move and when he didn’t appear to comply, take down the plate number and call in the KNP’s.

    Tom why do you even bother? You’re obviously the #1 troll here. :roll:

  • Tom
    11:39 am on July 8th, 2012 39

    GI Korea, that’s because you’re backhandedly suggesting it was the Korean’s fault. You are falsely alleging he didn’t move the car, when he did. According to your news link, the guy said he only took 2 to 3 minutes to move the car, then he went back into his store, shut the lights, locked up, and was about to leave, when MP’s attacked him. Then one of his family members protested to the MP why are they manhandling him, and he was also man handled to the ground. The KNP did arrive at the scene, and asked the MP’s to unlock the handcuffs, the MP’s refused saying that they were attacked. Liars! :lol: Why are you not telling that part? Huh? Explain that to me.

  • CHIMO
    11:54 am on July 8th, 2012 40

    TBH, the video is not clear in showing the actual interactions/escalation leading to the handcuffing. But clearly, the MP’s actions do not portray efforts to diffuse the situation. This is a situation of American policing procedures attempted in Korean society, and the following backlash. I think there is much to be learned from this incident. Koreans respond relatively positively to friendly approaches, especially if its from foreigners. Koreans also respond very emotionally to agressive approaches, again, moreso if its from foreigners.

  • Tom
    12:27 pm on July 8th, 2012 41

    ha ha ha.. they arrest the man because he didn’t move the car in front of his own store in his own country, in satisfactory time. :lol: Now I’ve heard of everything. This is ludicrous. The excuses are that cars are not allowed in front of US military camps because of terrorism threats. The man is the owner of the business who has been doing business in the area for a long time, well known to the US MP. They couldn’t let him at least finish his dinner? What was he going to do, blow up the base while he’s eating? After he moved the car, that should have been the end. But why American MP arrest the man? What for? For parking violations? :lol:
    Korean is a criminal who should be beaten and handcuffed because he parked his car in front of his store. :lol: What right does Americans have, telling people to move their cars out of the way when they’re parked in front of their property?

    The Korean national police arrived, telling the MP to free the men but the MP’s refused, and dragged the men 150 meters to their camp. This is how SOFA works. Korean Police has no authority at all, because the MP’s will never listen to Korean police who are basically American puppets.

  • CHIMO
    1:31 pm on July 8th, 2012 42

    @41 – the car was the cause for the encounter. The man (and it seems like his brother as well) were arrested, not because of the car, but due to the physical confrontation. Not saying that it’s right, but it’s an important distinction to make.

    It looks like the SP’s exercised poor judgement in this case, and the USFK leadership apologized for it. SP’s should get more training to align their actions to that expcted of in the host coutry. That’s about the extent of it. I don’t see any other issue unless you’re trying to make one out of it.

  • Dreamboat Annie
    2:06 pm on July 8th, 2012 43

    Many trolls and anti-US agitators will try to make more of this, especially during an election year. The weather was hot, the MP’s were douchebags, and the ajoshis were jerks. Sounds like a normal day.

  • Teadrinker
    2:32 pm on July 8th, 2012 44

    #21, 24.

    They handled themselves according to their training. BS! They aren’t law enforcement officers when it comes to dealing with non-USFK personnel. They don’t have no jurisdiction. No right to interfere with his business. No right to handcuff the guy (even if he would have been beating them over the head with a baseball bat).

    They’re lucky they aren’t being arrested for assault and kidnapping.

  • Teadrinker
    2:35 pm on July 8th, 2012 45

    #42,

    Technically they weren’t arrested since they did nothing illegal. It’s not illegal to tell the MPs to take a hike since they had no jurisdiction in that case.

  • Teadrinker
    2:41 pm on July 8th, 2012 46

    #43,

    Trolls and agitators because it’s an election year?

    How would you feel if one of the foreign soldiers training in the US, say a Russian, did the same thing?

  • Leon LaPorte
    3:59 pm on July 8th, 2012 47

    Regardless, Tom is 100% right on this one.

    I’ve had a few issues over many years (I’m obviously civilian).

    For those new to Korea and with little or no experience dealing with this type of situation, historically, the method I have found to work best is as follows.

    When confronted with over zealous MP/CP/SP I have asked them to get their OIC. I then proceed to (very politely) ask them if the US has declared martial law on peninsula. Even the youngest, dumbest 2LT will think for a moment and say, unequivocally, “no.” Many times the KNP will not respond (or take their tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime) when responding to the calls of the over zealous MP/CP/SP, for instance if they want to check a civilians ID card. I, in the past, have simply (very politely) enquired if I was being detained and (very politely) informed them they need to contact my consulate (while never mentioning what country I may or may not be from :lol: ).

    Now, this is the method I follow as an American. Were I actually a foreign national, or Korean, I might chose to simply ignore them or even insult them if they get too pushy. If you can afford the time and the initial possible beat down, you may get a pretty good return on your investment from the US government. I think a couple Irishmen in Itaewon got a pretty good payday for over zealous MP/CP/SP activity some years ago.

    Bottom line. There is no reasonable use of force matrix the MP/CP/SP should be using on foreign or Korean nationals. If they must police off post they should know they only have authority over US service members.

  • Maui
    4:24 pm on July 8th, 2012 48

    Osan SP’s has always been alittle high handed since 9/11. This was just a boil over on something that was a long time coming. There command needs to have a “come to Jesus” meeting. BLUF if its a problem that deals with off-base and non-USFK personnel they call KP to deal. Imagine I’d this happened at say.. Fort Duress in Waikiki..

  • tbonetylr
    4:43 pm on July 8th, 2012 49

    # 47,
    Let’s hear about how, why, and where you were when confronted?

  • Simple Minds
    5:25 pm on July 8th, 2012 50

    About a year ago the same thing happened to me with better results…stopped on the road by Aragon Alley and the SPs said I needed to move my car. I said I was getting food and will move it when I please and they have no authority to tell me to move my car. At that time, they agreed with that and said they would have to tell all the GIs to leave the bars nearby and I said have a good time. Because they didn’t give me crap I decided to move it on my own. Either way, the SPs knew they had no jurisdiction over civilians or foreign nationals that ARE NOT military.

    Remember that SPs and MPs go through stages…they get education on how to act following incidents…and that only lasts in their head for a short period….after awhile they go back to the tactics they learned to deal with REAL criminals…but instead, the only thing they have to worry about is parking off-base or speeding on-base…it leaves them a little confused when they can’t hit someone.

    This incident will spark a lot of training throughout the peninsula for military police, but give it about a year and some idiot with a chip on his shoulder will screw up again endangering everyone.

    And if you think what the SPs did was right because of terrorism, your mistaken. What they did will actually cause MORE AMERICANS to be targets because of their stupid actions!

  • Tracy More-gan
    5:41 pm on July 8th, 2012 51

    50- Nobody is going to join a terrorist cell just because MP’s asked them to move their car.

  • Orbit
    5:49 pm on July 8th, 2012 52

    @21 man do you ever read your own post? What’s up with all that same sentences in your paragraphs? @32 lol at the part where you say you are going to post these replys on korean internet lol @49 being obnoxious of course. look at his name for example leon wannabe french lol

  • Simple Minds
    5:49 pm on July 8th, 2012 53

    51 – You are very correct, of course no one is going to join a Terrorist cell, but that isn’t what I said…I said Americans will be targets….
    Because of their actions, just like in the past when American’s did stupid crap; riots, protests, and retaliation may get other Americans hurt

  • Orbit
    5:53 pm on July 8th, 2012 54

    I meant post number 19, not 21.

  • BBBBBBBBBBell
    6:16 pm on July 8th, 2012 55

    47 is spot on with a civilized response to both the MPs and this ridiculous thread. To the credit of the MPs, they deal with a lot of Service Member issues off-post and massive issues on post and they do it well. That being said, I have seen them attempt to push the boundaries of their authority more than once off-post. Sometimes they need to be reigned in and I definitely think that this is one of those times. Personal opinions of the KNP are not relative to this subject. Rules were violated by OUR personnel.
    If the car was suspicious and parked at the front gate of a military installation then this could be a different story. That was not the case. This is a case of a belligerent ajushi who I might say *gasp* MAY have had a right to be belligerent and while I was not there and will not pretend to be…I cannot think of too many situations other than the one I listed above as a reason for someone with zero authority to detain another person.

  • Seoul Guy
    6:38 pm on July 8th, 2012 56

    #21, #24, If KNP had same ‘rules of force’ as Americans do, then you would have had major incident between Americans and Koreans. If I had any authority like American MPs or a Stateside Policeman, I would have American MPs shot right on the spot.

    KNPs are probably more civil, professional, and smarter than any boneheaded MPs, SPs or hill billy Policmen you got back in Alabama and elsewhere in the States.

  • Stephen
    6:48 pm on July 8th, 2012 57

    The Ajeossi Push.

    Whenever there is a motor vehicle accident, one or both ajeossi will have to pay for vehicle damages.

    The best way to avoid paying vehicle damages is to do the ajeossi push and hope that the other ajeossi takes a swing, you then fall down, cry like a baby, find a compliant doctor and claim for assault damages.

    Although it’s 2012, it’s still 1909 in Korea, kowtowing to ajeossi is still expected. A few years ago, in a Myeondgdong an ajeossi sideswiped a girl with his wing mirror from behind. He then got out started haranguing her for “damaging” his precious automobile.

    Everyone, including us furries (foreign monkeys) ignored what was going on. Just another day in 1909 Joseon.

    BTW, it’s “defuse” the situation, not “diffuse”. Y’all not worked in EOD?

  • JoeC
    7:02 pm on July 8th, 2012 58

    #21

    “USFK while performing off base patrol duties have the authority to detain Korean nationals if they present a threat. So you can stop arguing that point.”

    I’ve read the USFK SOFA agreement many times and never seen any mention of that authority. Please point me to what I missed.

    If you and other military police (I assume you are) believe that response is inline with your training, then the suspension of those officers doesn’t solve the problem and obviously the rules of engagement need to be reviewed.

  • Seoul Guy
    7:07 pm on July 8th, 2012 59

    ;-) Hmm… If I ever get confronted by an American MPs on Korean soil, I will bait them and make them to apply their “rule of force” on me. I will sue American Government for my psychological trauma if those boneheads ever did apply their “rule” on me. I will sue the U.S. Government for at least US$ 10 million.

    We don’t need to get mad at them… we need to poke at where it hurts the most.

  • Stephen
    7:19 pm on July 8th, 2012 60

    Just keep the dongchim on the peninsula. A few days ago on the subway, a Korean guy hit me with his handbag in the family jewels, as he got up from his seat.

    I winced but didn’t handcuff him.

  • JoeC
    7:22 pm on July 8th, 2012 61

    #58 continued ….

    While you at it, does any USFK service member have the authority to detain a Korean national if they feel threatened?

  • KIMCHE
    7:24 pm on July 8th, 2012 62

    This korean are really pain in the a**.They are rude and no manners.Parking in shinjang shopping mall after 6pm is prohibited and will be fined.This ajussi was asked to move his car but he get furious.Eveybody know that this ajussi is arrogant and looking for trouble.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight
    7:31 pm on July 8th, 2012 63

    Hahahaha!

    When dealing with thugs and punks and bullies, an educated response is not really productive.

    Maybe you should reread the comment while ignoring the snark and focusing on the content.

    You are the one trying to push the idea that American airmen can enforce American military rules on Korean citizens on 100% Korean soil who are not even breaking any Korean laws.

    Pushing an agenda that far from reality makes it sounds as if you are the one lacking an education. You are also lacking training, leadership, good judgement, etc.

    Go back to checking IDs and fretting over reflective vests where you belong.

    And don’t worry, Tom, this thug attitude is spreading among American cops in America as well.

  • Bones
    7:35 pm on July 8th, 2012 64

    SP’s patrolling off post has outlived its usefullness. Courtesy patrols – sure. Law enforcement? No.

  • Glans
    7:36 pm on July 8th, 2012 65

    Under the Glans Plan for Korea, this whole problem goes away.

  • Tom
    7:47 pm on July 8th, 2012 66

    You’re right #63, this type of goon mentality by “law enforcement” has always been part of America. They forgot that they’re in Korea, not USA. See for yourselves.

  • MTB Rider
    7:53 pm on July 8th, 2012 67

    I think we should follow Tom’s advice on this by following Tom’s earlier advice:

    Posted 20 May 2012 regarding the Chinese fishermen detained and robbed by North Korean Navy personnel:

    What piracy? The Chinese boats were in North Korean waters, and the North Koreans gave the Chinese a severe deserved beating and sent them on their way again back to China with a lesson learned. Incident over, and done with.

    The Chinese were especially ticked off about this because they weren’t used to the North Koreans behaving this way. Because the North Koreans are their guard dogs. The guard dog isn’t supposed to bite his master.

    Which still doesn’t excuse all the racism and xenophobia against Koreans and Asians found in this site.

    Yes, there it is! The Solution!
    1. Blame The Victim
    2. Absolve the Government
    3. Vow to never speak of it again

    Thanks Tom! You’re a Real Lifesaver! :lol:

    Yes, the MPs stepped over the line, and should be disciplined over it. No argument from me there. But hey! The General apologized and bowed. Done deal, time to move on. Right, Tom? :twisted:

  • Stephen
    8:03 pm on July 8th, 2012 68

    MTB Rider, arguing with Tom is like playing chess with children, you will always checkmate him; a virtual set of handcuffs.

    His virtual handbagging of us has no effect outside the Starcraft universe.

  • Tom
    8:12 pm on July 8th, 2012 69

    No. It’s not time to move on as long as you have people here blaming this on Koreans, MTB Rider.

    If it wasn’t for that video tape, you know very well that this would have been all Korea’s fault. Just read #57, #60, #62, and GI Korea’s ridiculous claims that Korean guy didn’t move his car and that he pushed the MP’s (who happens to be twice fatter than the Korean) around. Ridiculous false charge. I’m going to keep on reminding you guys about this whenever you guys try to pull the victim stunt again as usual.

  • MTB Rider
    8:22 pm on July 8th, 2012 70

    Tom, unlike you, I’ve been in Korea for quite some time, and I’m well aware of “Korean Hot Kimchee Temper.” It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if some ajushi shoved an MP, knowing that the MP isn’t allowed to shove back.

    BENVOLIO

    I pray thee, good Mercutio, let’s retire:
    The day is hot, the Capulets abroad,
    And, if we meet, we shall not scape a brawl;
    For now, these hot days, is the mad blood stirring.

    I’m not sure what the weather is like there in Toronto, but here in Korea it’s been pretty warm lately. And humid. Tends to make folks rather short tempered.

  • Stephen
    8:31 pm on July 8th, 2012 71

    DELETED BY ADMIN: You do not need to make your point by launching a personal attack.

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    9:07 pm on July 8th, 2012 72

    @69 – I miss interpreted the video since my Korean language skills are not good and that is why I asked readers to also provide their own interpretation of what happened. I have since corrected the posting.

    Whether he moved the car or not is irrelevant because the SP’s had no authority to detain these guys. As far as the Korean national I have seen no video that shows the MP’s initiating the pushing. Based on past personal experience like I have already described I can rightfully see this guy getting pissed off at these SPs and doing the ajushi push. Once again this is irrelevant because regardless of whether the SP’s were pushed they had no right to handcuff and detain these guys. They should of backed away from the situation and let local police handle it.

  • Seoul Guy
    9:37 pm on July 8th, 2012 73

    Whatever the case, MP/SPs need to be given a new training…

  • JoeC
    10:22 pm on July 8th, 2012 74

    Let’s say some ships from the French naval fleet visited Charleston and they deployed some shore patrol in town to look out for their sailors. What would the reaction be if French shore-patrolmen handcuffed and detained an American citizen for being belligerent?

    It would be the top story on Fox News for 2 weeks.

  • Tracy More-gan
    10:26 pm on July 8th, 2012 75

    Whatever the case, a couple of you need to stop trying to start trouble, especially Tom and Seoul Guy.

  • Casanova
    10:30 pm on July 8th, 2012 76

    #69 and #73, NO SH!T? Your wisdom astounds me… You 2 would get out more and stop being wankers, maybe hang out together and see if you could split a taco between you.

  • tbonetylr
    10:32 pm on July 8th, 2012 77

    # 59 Seoul Guy,
    “Hmm… If I ever get confronted by an American MPs on Korean soil, I will bait them and make them to apply their “rule of force” on me. I will sue American Government for my psychological trauma if those boneheads ever did apply their “rule” on me. I will sue the U.S. Government for at least US$ 10 million.”

    Exactly what the music shop guy was probably thinking, and he lives right next to the base so the probability must be high. Nothing but a trouble-maker.

  • Seoul Guy
    10:47 pm on July 8th, 2012 78

    ;-) If I were the handcuffed shop keeper, I would sue both South Korean and the U.S. Government for trauma both countries’ law enforcement authorities had inflicted on him.

    There is nothing better than a jackpot.

    There are many unemployed lawyers in Seoul who would gladly do just that on behalf of Mr. Yang.

  • Seoul Guy
    10:49 pm on July 8th, 2012 79

    I’d advise the shopkeeper to sue the U.S. Government on CONUS jurisdiction for a bigger payout.

  • Seoul Guy
    10:56 pm on July 8th, 2012 80

    #75, Tracy…

    “Whatever the case, a couple of you need to stop trying to start trouble, especially Tom and Seoul Guy”

    And why would I listen to you? This is a great ammunition for the cause of the conscientious and just in this country run by pro-American filthy politicians and the Prez.

  • Seoul Guy
    11:00 pm on July 8th, 2012 81

    And I would like to thank the Osan Air Base SPs for the wonderful opportunity you’d given to the Progressives of this country who are fighting an uphill battle against the daughter of once and deceased iron fisted dictator.

  • john james
    1:20 am on July 9th, 2012 82

    Im trying to figure out where this incident happened. the transformers are not even on the osan AB side of the street. that means these fucks where in the ville ordering people around.

    I am not in the military anymore.. Several months ago I was sitting in bar after curfew for GIs minding my own business. A lesbian SF comes up to me and ask if I am in the military. I said No, I am not and continued conversing and drinking. She just stood there and said can you prove it. She asked if I had some form of ID and I said yes. then turned and drank and talked to more.. At this point she got loud and said excuse me can I see your ID? I said No.
    she seemed to be getting madder.. And interjected again in my conversation.. I said to her. Can I help you. she said could she see ID to prove I am not in the military. As of today I dont believe the government issues ID that says I am not in the military . She asked why am i giving her a hard time. I was kinda annoyed and told her. You asked me if I was in the military, I said NO,, move on. She said I can go get KNP. I said go ahead.. teh KNP are just a bunch of worthless conscripts who dont want to be walking around ant 1am. they would rather be sleeping or drinking..

    I could have been Canadian teacher, American Tourist or just another random white guy in Korea.

    So, tell me how do you prove you are not in the military when the SF’s come walking around . hahahhahah

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    1:40 am on July 9th, 2012 83

    Where did all the Osan SPs go?

    They were quick to call everyone uninformed monday morning quarterbacks and babble on about Use of Force Matrices and brag how they can detain Korean nationals if they are a threat.

    When the facts come out, they slink off like roaches when the light goes on. But to a group of wussy SPs, an irritated ajushi being unlawfully told to move his car is a pretty big threat. Ready the flashbangs, hoist the battering ram and call the special response team to take that ajushi down before he deploys the Garlic Breath WMD.

    Maybe the SPs were right and a couple generals just like to bow and scrape to Koreans. Maybe they will get a certificate with a smiley face for helping the generals live out their dreams.

    Or maybe Get Your Facts Straight completed some emergency training which informed him that he can’t really run amok in a foreign country telling the local citizens what they can and can’t do and then labeling them a threat and beating them up when they don’t comply.

    A real man defends his ideas or admits when he is wrong. But there aren’t too many real men when it comes to SPs. There are mostly screwoffs and washouts pretending they are something bigger than glorified rent-a-cops. So I expect only to hear the sounds of tails rubbing between legs fading off into the distance.

    Any more of you SP tools want to brag about how much a-thor-i-ty you have off base?

    JoeC, if a uniformed and armed member of a foreign military assaulted me on American soil because I wasn’t following his made-up rules in my own place of business, after they cleaned up all the blood and patched all the holes in the wall behind him, my legal defense team would evoke Stand Your Ground in preparation for my civil suit against whatever country was dumb enough to think they could get by with it.

    tbonetylr, do you really think as a long-time local businessman he is a troublemaker to Osan AB? Or do you think the SPs crossed way over the line and he had neither the legal nor moral obligation to cower down and take orders or abuse?

    Bones, you are right on the money. There needs to be CPs to take care of GIs. There does not need to be a bunch of punks thinking they run downtown.

  • Seoul Guy
    2:05 am on July 9th, 2012 84

    :shock: #82, Are you working for USFK public relations? Boy you are smooth… Darn

  • BigMike
    3:44 am on July 9th, 2012 85

    Every time the Koreans stand up and say no the reply from base leadership is to put their establishments off limits.. This is why they get away with the crap that they do. It was really out of control after 911, trying to give civilians a curfew of 2100 and then 2400 and it wasn’t until the government civilians stood up and said if that is the case then between the hours of 2400 and 0600 we are on stand by and will be putting in for pay… When they brought this law suit about, USFK was quick to back peddle.. The SP’s at Osan were trying to take your picture and then go back and look through BIDs. I personally caught MP’s at Humphreys trying to take a picture of my license plate and I told them that is an intel oversight and they could not collect intel on US citizens and I proceeded to call the desk Sgt. who promptly told them to stop. The military establishment in Korea has been way out of hand since 911…

  • Leon LaPorte
    3:47 am on July 9th, 2012 86

    84. True this…

  • Dreamboat Annie
    4:16 am on July 9th, 2012 87

    Tom and Seoul Guy are being caught off guard by the fact that many of us are not automatically spouting some party line like the Chinese and Korean leftists are known to do.
    I have many stories of rude and arrogant MP’s, and that includes during my military service and my years in Korea. So many has been unprofessional and and the rudeness has been completely unnecessary.
    I’m guessing that the Korean dude was a jerk but he may have been dealing with the same di-khead MP’s repeating the same nonsense about his parking spot for years and this time he lost his head about it.
    No video and those di-khead MP’s get away with this one. You also have to wonder how many other times there was no video and they got away with whatever. Hopefully someone will be disciplined. Just adding “additional training” is nonsense. Someone should be disciplined or else it will continue in another form.

  • JoeC
    5:07 am on July 9th, 2012 88

    Whatever the outcome of the commander’s “investigation”, I doubt those involved will ever returned to town patrol. They would be identified as trouble makers, get no cooperation and likely confronted by Koreans at every opportunity.

  • Billy G
    5:13 am on July 9th, 2012 89

    Wow, I cannot believe that anybody would defend these SP’s. I have been here for 16 years this time and even went through the period a few years ago when the military was trying to enforce curfew on the civilians. First off, whether you’re a Korean or American on this blog, if you know the laws of the US, you’d know the correct answer to this dilemma: No US military member has police authority over any civilian unless in war or martial law declaration – period!. You could take it a step further and read the SOFA and it explicitly prohibits authority of US troops over Korean citizens. I said many years ago and I’ll repeat it now. Get the SP’s out of the Korean civilian areas and leave that policing up to the KNP. Granted, the KNP doesn’t do a very good job. But, that is not the business of the US military. As far as these guys claiming that they were somehow “In harm’s way”. Anybody who knows anything about the SP’s would also know that their mantra for any situation when they decide to be heavy-handed is “I was in fear for my life, so I reacted”. Hell, they teach it. So, do I believe the SP’s? Absolutely not! I want to but, I know better. I retired after 23 years in the Air Force (Much of that here in Korea), and have worked here as a civilian since 2004 and have watched the SP’s step beyond their authority numerous times. If the Koreans that were handcuffed don’t sue for an inordinate amount of money, I would be surprised, and they have every right to do this. If they want to save our tax dollars from these incidents, they will remove all police authority from civilian sectors. I for one, will be happy when there are no military police patrolling anywhere outside of any base in Korea.

  • Korea sucks
    7:25 am on July 9th, 2012 90

    Who cares. Worthless Koreans got pushed around. Korea is the ball sack of planet earth. Not worth defending.

  • tbonetylr
    8:43 am on July 9th, 2012 91

    # 83,
    “tbonetylr, do you really think as a long-time local businessman he is a troublemaker to Osan AB? Or…?”

    Yes I do, on the former.

    I was looking at the comment #58 of JoeC and don’t see anyone providing a link saying otherwise. I think Lt. Gen. Jan-Marc Jouas looks silly in the pic above. Of course a parking violation shouldn’t have caused such a stir but the Korean probably elevated the situation and routinely parks illegally. The U.S. shouldn’t go anywhere off-base without KNP’s but this is all petty because the U.S. needs to get out of S. Korea ASAP. When that happens no Korean with a music shop will be able to say he’s got a shop 500 feet from an American military base and no more silly Korean heroes will be created from such silliness.

    “When the facts come out, they slink off like roaches when the light goes on.”

    Nobody in the blogosphere has seen all the fact lights yet.

  • Jeff
    8:49 am on July 9th, 2012 92

    Always have to get this in there somehow:

    After two Korean middle school girls were run over and killed by an American armored personnel carrier in June 2002, nationwide candlelight vigils developed into mass protests against the presence of U.S. troops in Korea

    http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2955831

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    9:28 am on July 9th, 2012 93

    tbone, you are right. Nobody has seen all the facts yet. But in whatever little way they might modify the perception of the situation, there are no facts that can make the actions of the SPs correct in any way.

    Are you trying to label somebody a troublemaker for standing up to foreign armed thugs unlawfully instigating a conflict and then using it as an excuse for assault and detainment? Are you smoking the same thing those SPs were smoking before they sharpened up and quit commenting here?

    Maybe if you ask nicely, they will let you in on some of the mandatory additional training they got on the difference between right and wrong.

  • Tom
    9:28 am on July 9th, 2012 94

    Jeff, check the press reports from such news sources like Reuters and AP, they all mention the 2002 incident. And they all have short detail of US commander apologizing for a parking ruckus. None of the finer details are even reported, giving people an impression the US military has to apologize for trying to keep order in Korea. The comments on the internet are so predictable, like “let’s all get f*ck out of Korea, cause they’re lousy ungrateful people”, and on and on. The whole thing is blamed on ungrateful Koreans who are allegedly and unjustly giving GI’s a hard time. Americans can do no wrong. :lol:

  • John in LA
    10:29 am on July 9th, 2012 95

    This, too, shall pass.

    but let me just drop few observations of mine.

    Cultural gap
    The ajushi pushing by the Korean probably started it. The American MPs obviously grew up in a culture where laying one’s hand on a stranger, let alone ones wearing badges/guns/armbands, is a BIG no no. And as one earlier poster mentioned, street cops (especially young ones) get no respect in S Korea, especially if you know you are not a criminal. Considering the American MPs are no more than 20 years old, the Korean was probably extra pissed, on top of being ordered to move his car in front of HIS business.

    I remember reading an article in a Korean newspaper in late 1980′s. This Korean man in Gimpo International airport thought a caucasian boy (traveling with his mom) was really cute so he patted his head. The mom (believe American) went ballistic (think the Korean man was detained briefly by the security because of her angry reaction). A staff from the US embassy had to come out to defuse the situation and explain to her that a stranger patting a boy’s head is normal in S Korea.

    Weather
    July? It’s probably dang hot and humid. Store owner is already annoyed his business is not well as much as he’d like. The MPs are pissed they have to be out patrolling instead of chilling in bars/room.

    This type of incident happened before.
    A year or 2 ago I read in Korean newspaper about how 2 older Korean civilians workers (in 50′s) were handcuffed and kept on their knees for hours for allegedly walking through secure area. They were suspected of spying or something like it. The Korean civilian worker union was going to file complaints or something to that effect. Never heard another piece of story about it again. Obviously lack of video clip didn’t help.

    So yeah, this, too, shall pass.

    Btw, I feel for the general who had to bow to apologize for the incident. He obviously didn’t sign up to be doing that kind of stuff. But I applaud the quick move to resolve the issue.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    11:00 am on July 9th, 2012 96

    John in LA, the issue is not really resolved. Once all the videos are in and the witnesses’ stories spread, it may get bigger. A few low bows and crocodile tears don’t really make up for a blow to Korean pride and sovereignty; especially when fanned by anti-American groups in an election year. We will see.

    This type of incident did not happen before in the case you suggested. There is a big difference between SPs rightfully cuffing people when they walk through a secure area ON base and cuffing off-base Korean civilians for not immediately following their demands in an area where they have absolutely no jurisdiction. With all the excuses and false comparisons written here, it isn’t clear that many people grasp the distinction.

    Once again, there was only one course of action for the SPs if they truly felt the situation needed attention. Ask the man to move his car then back away and call KNP to make the man move his car, if that is even a legal possibility. That assumes KNP agrees that an established business owner in Korea is some sort of threat and must conform to the arbitrary whims of Osan’s force protection security theater rules of the day. Any other action on the part of the SPs is creating conflict and they are fully to blame for the results.

    A pushing ajushi started nothing. SPs engaged in unlawful detainment started everything. It is a crime in Korea to restrict the movements of someone against their will. It is standard procedure for SPs to surround their target, not allow them to move from the spot and claim they felt threatened when they don’t get full cooperation.

    Like Tom, I am shocked at the support for unlawful behavior, abuse of nonexistent authority, encouragement of physical conflict, and disregard for civil rights. This same behavior is increasingly common in American civilian police forces and it should be something no true American finds acceptable.

  • Tom
    11:01 am on July 9th, 2012 97

    John in LA, the Korean guy looks about 25 to 27 to me. The Americans on the other hand looks over 30. Your cultural argument loses. I might have guessed the ages wrong, but going by just the looks taken in by the Korean guy, I doubt Korean guy felt what you said regarding age. :roll:

  • @97
    11:09 am on July 9th, 2012 98

    Tom you lead the pack when it comes to ignorance

  • Tom
    11:10 am on July 9th, 2012 99

    Heard it on the news yesterday, Korean government says there is no legal basis for US MP’s to force people (Koreans or not) out of the way when they are legally parked in front of their own property. It’s unconstitutional, especially by foreign forces in a peace time. Why the US military MP’s make up their own rules and own laws for the Koreans to follow? :?:

  • Ole Tanker
    11:16 am on July 9th, 2012 100

    America is not the World’s Policeman! But you can’t fault us for not trying. :cool:

  • Seoul Guy
    11:46 am on July 9th, 2012 101

    :roll: Funny how some here has this ignorant notion about Korean “Ajussi”…
    If you are a male over 30 years of age you are Ajussi. It applies to furballs too. Strange things about some of the furballs living in Korea is that they have this unreasonable arrogant animosity toward Korean men. This phenomenon occurs to short timers from the U.S. Americans seem to be of two kinds: one group is culturally sensitive and intelligent ; the second group is completely anal. They have no idea why they exist in Earth. They think they are super hotshots because they are Americans.

    Why would an Ajussi push Osan SP? When there were 7 of them threatening him?

    Are you all out of your freakin minds?

    There will be a massive witch hunt against American furballls.

  • Seoul Guy
    12:02 pm on July 9th, 2012 102

    There are reports coming out of Osan that this was not an isolated incident. Korean Police are being criticized as well. KNP will be scrutinized for their handling of this matter. Whatever some furballs says here, a Korean civilian was manhandled by US SP. He was forcibly put down face down on the ground. That is a no no here in Korea.
    There will be an open season on furry creatures from the USA.

  • John in LA
    12:30 pm on July 9th, 2012 103

    #96
    I agree with you. I wasn’t being clear. And I agree the SPs made a mistake. They are probably short timers in S Korea and so not really well versed in the local culture, the stuff you can’t really teach in class…

    #102
    This was not an isolated incident? Well that reminds of an Apple ad jingle

    This changes everything. Again.
    http://www.apple.com/channel/iphone/iphone-4/tour/

  • MrNeveroutpastcurfew
    2:59 pm on July 9th, 2012 104

    OT but just curious if anyone here knows… What is the policy of MP/SPs, when an American (possibly military) refuses to show id? If its to get a KNP present and have them ask to see an id, if it really is a US military member, couldn’t he just show his state drivers license (with no SSN), or would just his name be sufficient enough to check for his picture in BIDS?

  • Just the Facts Ma'am, Just the Facts.
    3:25 pm on July 9th, 2012 105

    The Ville (Sinjang Dong) where this took place is a pretty vile place as it is, it’s like a 21st century Dejima, a Tax Free Tourist Zone strip right outside the base to keep the Troops and now alot of the English teachers who party there from straying into the “Real Korea”. Town Patrol has been there for decades, sorry to dissapoint many of the SOFA and Korean Legal experts taking a break between teaching their English Classes, they are not an “Occupation Force” nor do they act like they “run the town”. They are allowed to patrol within the confines of the ville to keep the stupid rowdy troops at bay, and keep things from getting out of hand, which they do quite well. Ask the vast majority of businesses if they want Town Patrol gone, I guarentee they will tell you know as they are more effective and visible than the KNP. One time some drunk Kyrgyz guy went crazy in one of the bars we were at throwing stuff and causing problems, the first thing the Bar Owner did was flag down Town Patrol who helped out until KNP showed up 15-20 minutes later. Furthermore the other thing they have to deal with is English Teachers looking to start trouble with them so they can show off their International Law skills picked up at E-mart.

    As far as what happened last week, I can guarentee you that the “victimized by the big Yankee bullies” store owner probably won’t be running his shop in the ville much longer, believe you me his actions pissed off the old guard of Korean shop owners and other key players in the ville, they don’t like negative attention and the posibility of anything threating their dollar demonated rice bowls. He’s done. It’s sad it happened and things will work out, but don’t worry Town Patrol won’t be patrolling outside of your Hagwons anytime soon…..

  • BBBBBBBBBBell
    3:33 pm on July 9th, 2012 106

    @104: A Drivers’ License would give them away in BIDS if they were trying to avoid being caught (for curfew or anything else).
    As for the comments that the SP / MPs do not belong outside the gate, I have to disagree with that statement. Yes, this is a huge mistake made by a few SPs with inadequacy issues, but we still need to keep the big picture in focus. The MPs in Itaewon do a lot to sweep the streets of disorderly and drunk Service Members. Just them being there can make SMs think twice about their behavior. As long as they play by the rules there will be no issue. If they ask for ID of someone who they believe is a SM, and they are told no, then they bring the KNP into the fold. CPs do a wonderful job sweeping the streets as well, but like it or not MPs are trained to handle certain situations that a CP cannot.
    I am not making excuses for this or any other dumb thing an MP or SP has done while off-post. I just think we need a reminder that there is a bigger picture. I think if the KNPs picked up every Soldier that got into a fight in Itaewon, the numbers would skyrocket and the media would have a field day. The MPs get them off of the streets before any more damage is done and USFK is embarrassed further.

  • Tracy More-gan
    4:34 pm on July 9th, 2012 107

    105- It’s not English teachers who are posting on this thread. You know that. Besides, you can’t even believe poster like Marmot’s Hole because he never served in the military and has no clue about the low regard most of us hold MP’s and SP’s. I’ve seen them acting all “Dirty Harry/Robocop” over parking at family events on base at Fort Hood, so I can only imagine how badly they can act in Songtan.

  • Tracy More-gan
    4:37 pm on July 9th, 2012 108

    105- I know Americans who’ve seen your SP pals walk into McDonalds and Baskin Robbins, demand to see ID from everyone there under a pretext of looking for “known prostitutes”, order food, check a few IDs, and then walk out with their food without paying for it. So, can it with the “Songtan SP’s are saints” talk.

  • JoeC
    4:37 pm on July 9th, 2012 109

    @89 Billy G said:

    “Anybody who knows anything about the SP’s would also know that their mantra for any situation when they decide to be heavy-handed is “I was in fear for my life, so I reacted”.”

    I haven’t seen how the situation started or escalated. Were the cops pushed or physically assaulted?

    I also don’t know what they are trained to do or not, but what I’ve seen them do is what I call “crowding.” They tightly encircle someone.

    There is a study called proxemics which deals with how people psychologically determine their personal space. We still have our animal territorial nature. When you are crowded by a group of strangers well inside your space, amplified by intense eye contact, it is very intimidating, your adrenaline will spike and you will have an intense need for fight or flight.

    Whether the cops know that and deliberately exploit that or not, I don’t know. Most often I will see they will purposely avoid crowding someone they may be having difficulty with. But, at the point they decide to close in and start crowding I know it’s about to become a physical altercation.

  • Tracy More-gan
    4:42 pm on July 9th, 2012 110

    105- You want to hear more about what your Songtan “SP saints” have done and do on a regular basis?

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight
    5:31 pm on July 9th, 2012 111

    John in LA, there is a serious failure in Osan leadership if they allow short timers in Korea to perform town patrol duties or fail to fully train town patrol on Korean culture.

    This was not an isolated incident. It just escalated farther than usual, happened in a public place instead of inside a club/shop, and coincided with the explosion of smartphone ownership in Korea.

    The reality is SPs spend more time working themselves up over their Use of Force Matrix to justify their arbitrary demands than they do studying how to diffuse difficult situations and work out conflict in ways that benefit everyone involved. This is the new normal in stateside law enforcement at both the federal and local level.

    While stateside police are increasingly getting by with this behavior, such as no-knock warrants for minor crimes, American military police cannot expect this behavior to be acceptable when it violates the laws and sovereignty of a foreign country. This is even more true in a country such as South Korea which fought to end this type of police behavior and the dictatorships that supported it.

    Considering the excuses and rationalizations given here for these SPs, showing acceptance of this behavior, there are dark times ahead for America.

  • Seoul Guy
    5:57 pm on July 9th, 2012 112

    One thing for sure: I will never venture to Itaewon at nights.

    Songtan “ville” would never be my party destination.

    :sad: This is very unfortunate because it is my country but I cannot go to places due to foreign military thugs.

    It’s like some place in the States where a colored person is off limits because of his skin tone.

    I am convinced that the U.S.A. stands for Utterly Savage As*holes.

  • Just the Facts Ma'am, Just the Facts.
    6:00 pm on July 9th, 2012 113

    108 “I know Americans who’ve seen your SP…” So you haven’t actually seen it yourself. Everyone knows someone who’s seen someone do something somewhere. But if you haven’t seen it yourself then it’s just better to not use or claim second hand knowledge as Gospel.

    I was stationed at Osan for one year, I personally know people on town patrol, so again if I call your 31 Flavors story BS it’s with good knowledge. Not saying that they are saints, but they are not the Storm Troopers you would like to make them out to be.

  • John in LA
    6:04 pm on July 9th, 2012 114

    Saw the SBS news clip and my heart sank when I saw the SPs shoving S Korean civilians (and no not the ones who got cuffed). Maybe the SPs were shoved but I somehow doubt it when they are bigger (probably) and carrying gun with live ammo.

    I tend to believe the store owner wasn’t being belligerent (at least not in physical/emotional way) when I saw the store security camera showing him calmly walking into store to turn off lights and lock up the store.

    I read in different places that the SPs were feeling threatened which I think is BS. If they feel threatened, they wouldn’t stand outside waiting for him to come out (shown in security camera, albeit blurry). And they wouldn’t show their backs to dozens of S Korean civilians surrounding them. I think they just got carried away.

    I think the SPs are thinking/policing in the American way (the guys are even probably planning of becoming cops once discharged) and hence following the American way of dealing with ‘suspects’.

  • tbonetylr
    6:06 pm on July 9th, 2012 115

    # 92 JEFF,
    I like the link you provided where it says…
    “The precinct said it is looking into the possibility of charging them for making the illegal arrests, which could result in sentences of up to five years in prison or fines of up to 7 million won ($6,150).”

    If that Korean music shop fella wants a lot of money he better be in a hospital bed for about 3 weeks where his bruises can heal properly. If I were the American military I’d be staking out that hospital to see the fella leave at night to party and get drunk and then return in the morning acting all hurt and everything.

    Music shop guy > the next Korean hero?

  • tbonetylr
    6:12 pm on July 9th, 2012 116

    I’m confused? Why is everyone saying the MP’s don’t have jurisdiction when…
    “Apparently they do have the authority to detain Korean citizens outside their base until the Korean police arrive, according to a representative of the Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
    A person with the Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade has said, “US military police (MP) in Korea are allowed to operate outside their base to protect their base facilities. If a problem arised during their patrols, the US MPs can restrain people until the Korean police arrive, after which they mutually cooperate to deal with the problem.
    외교통상부 관계자는 “주한미군 헌병이 자신들의 기지시설 보호를 위해 영외에서 활동할 수 있도록 돼 있다”면서 “순찰 도중 문제가 생기면 한국 경찰이 도착하기 전까지 미 헌병이 제지할 수는 있는데 경찰이 도착한 이후 서로 협조하도록 돼 있다. 그 부분이 원활하지 않았던 것 같다”고 말했다.”

  • John in LA
    6:13 pm on July 9th, 2012 117

    #115
    I really don’t care about the dude getting his wons or not. I’m concerned about USFK getting bad image or this turning into the mini version of the 2002 incident, yet in another election year.

    The SPs over reacted. I hear in Korean news outlets where the Osan command claims the SPs felt threatened. Which I think is bs. If felt threatened, why do they stand outside his store waiting? Why show their backs (while forcing a guy onto his stomach) to dozens of S Koreans standing in close proximity showing their displeasure?

    Even if the cuffed Koreans deserved it, this was not the way to go.

  • John in LA
    6:16 pm on July 9th, 2012 118

    #116
    Maybe that’s why the SPs cuffed them. But the problem is the SPs didn’t uncuff them when the police arrived at the scene. The police said in interview that even when the police asked the 3 be uncuffed, the SPs didn’t.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight
    7:32 pm on July 9th, 2012 119

    tbonetylr, the shop owner had moved his car and was in violation of no Songtan city ordinance at that time. The SPs illegally detained him in his shop and then assaulted him when he resisted. They do not have the legal right to do that. Any excuses or arguments you might try are automatically invalid.

  • Stephen
    7:38 pm on July 9th, 2012 120

    tbonetylr
    6:06 pm on July 9th, 2012 115

    Music shop guy => the next Korean hero?

    The next K-pop hit.

    Music shop guy,
    Oh music shop guy,
    You think you are a music shop guy

    You should belong to the jet set
    fly your own private lear jet
    but you worked in a grocery store
    every day until you could afford to get away

    So you went to Toronto to meet Alexander Payne
    He wasn’t there or he just didn’t care
    I think it’s time for you, my friend
    To stop pretending that you are a

    Music shop guy,
    Oh music shop guy,
    You think you are a music shop guy

    In naver online stores now

  • Leon LaPorte
    7:47 pm on July 9th, 2012 121

    You know, I’m about as pro-American and for the troops as they come but I can’t understand why some of you fail to see the problem here. There is a reason Korean police act the way they do. It’s cultural AND has a lot to do with the years of Japanese occupation and brutal repression by dictators. I prefer Korean cops to US cops, hands down. That said, Korean cops wouldn’t stand a chance in the US. Different people. But I digress.

    The problem isn’t that they didn’t un-cuff the guy soon enough. The problem is they are foreign troops and hand cuffed a Korean, who has owned that shop for years, and had no right to.

    A little common sense.

    The Korean knows he’s not supposed to park there and why. At that time of night I’m betting he was just unloading something into or out of his vehicle as happens all the time. This time it the over-zealous SP’s just so happened to be there.

    All the good SP’s had to do was say ONCE, “Adjussi, we are going to have to call KNP if you don’t move your car in 5 minutes.” Then the could go about there business, NOT LINGER, say check a bar across the street. If, when they come out, the car is still there, call the KNP with the plate number and location then go on about their business. That is a simple way to avoid the altercation. The car would have got moved. Maybe no RIGHT NOW THIS VERY SECOND (with spittle), but it would have got moved and there would have been no altercation AND no violation of Korean sovereignty.

    Alas, many of these MP/SP’s do have chips on their shoulders. They need to be thoroughly trained that civilians, from ANY country, are hands off and to tread lightly. Most do a good job. But like any group, it just takes a few…

  • Tom
    7:49 pm on July 9th, 2012 122

    Lying son of B*tches. And all of you making excuses for these guys, same to you.

    Everything was caught on video, if they try to squirm their way out of this one, it’s not going to happen. It doesn’t even make any sense the Korean guy would attack the MP’s, when there were at least four, probably more, of them versus one Korean guy. As for the claims that crowds were gathering to attack the Americans.. :lol: :lol: :lol: to that. Look at the video, those MP’s beating on the Korean, didn’t even care to lookup, they were too busy stomping him on the ground. The American media is trying to turn this into an anti-American thing by Koreans, instead of admitting one of their men did wrong and moving on, they’re just turning this into a bigger issue. The bigger issue is that these guys think they’re the law in Korea, and this incident is just a tip of the iceberg. If the video wasn’t there, it would have been just another night in ROK.

    One of these days, they’re going to kill a Korean for parking illegally and it will be on video.

    This is the American style law enforcement, beat on the colored, and ask questions later.

  • Tom
    7:56 pm on July 9th, 2012 123

    The Korean guy did move his car, even though he didn’t like it. The US military goons with their pride and big egos, were only pi$$ed because he didn’t do it in time making them look bad, so they decided to make an example out of him. That’s the real story here. That kind of logic may go over well in America, but this is Korea, police don’t have absolute power over the civilians, as in America. I know in America, if the police shoot somebody in the head, it’s as good as given that it will be justified 100% of the time, no questions asked.

  • Leon LaPorte
    8:00 pm on July 9th, 2012 124

    122. Tom, I’m sorry to say, you are 100% right on this one and Koreans have a right to be outraged by this. :sad:

    We Americans need to consider this. There is a German Bundeswehr Luftwaffe base in Holloman AFB/El Paso, Texas. What if the Germans decided they needed to police and protect their troops downtown, in clubs and such? What if they were armed and in uniform? What if they started detaining and handcuffing Americans over parking violations? What if they started IDing their soldiers and anyone else who might be German downtown?

    Consider that. Really mull it over…

    Now you understand the problem in Songtan.

  • Leon LaPorte
    8:01 pm on July 9th, 2012 125

    124. Don’t forget leave with pay while they are investigated.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight
    9:02 pm on July 9th, 2012 126

    Tom, ‘That kind of logic may go over well in America’ is wrong.

    It doesn’t go over well in America either but with 30% of Americans dependent on sucking from the government teat and those who actually have assets worried they will be affected by vindictive law enforcement or entangling bureaucracy, only those with nothing to loose are standing up to it. Government and media work together to discredit them as fringe citizens and strive to discount their opinion.

    There is a certain growing mentality in America that says if you keep your head down and don’t bring attention to yourself, you will be taken care of. Korea has already been through a series of dictators backed by militarized police demanding the compliance of the people in exchange for a bit of security. America appears that it will have to learn the hard way.

    These SPs demonstrate the growing Us vs. Them mentality of American law enforcement, and the American government.

    There is no protect and serve. There is no mutual resolution of disagreement to benefit all parties. There is only the goal of creating and encouraging conflict over trivial issues and then using overwhelming force to resolve it followed by rationalizations about why it was the correct course of action. This justifies massive Homeland Security grants, the upkeep and training for a lot of cool high-tech toys, the acquisition of used military equipment and a lot of pride and self-congratulations about how tough and cool everybody looks in their black uniforms with matching metaphorical jackboots.

    Those of you who support this mentality are short-sighted, shallow thinkers and poor students of history. The SPs who have not been back to defend their actions are below that.

    It’s more fun to scrap with ajushi over a parking spot with the power of the State behind you than tell a drunk GI, “Sir, let me arrange an escort back to your room so you don’t get into any trouble tonight.”

    American law enforcement culture is becoming a disgrace.

    Another time, we can further tie this in to for-profit prisons, the War on Drugs, the growing number of onerous government regulations enforced by armed departments of formerly-benign government agencies, the growing militarization and surveillance culture of American society, etc.

    In the end, SPs can get by with that in the States but not in Korea. USFK needs its pee-pee slapped, and slapped hard.

  • counter strike 6
    10:31 pm on July 9th, 2012 127

    Personally, I think all military police should be restricted to patrolling on base only. I seen many instances where MP/SP personnel either do not know or willingly over step their authority. One instance that I became personally involved in happened when an English teacher with no affiliation with the military was drunk and climbing on top of cars in an entertainment district. The teacher wound up in one of the KTA clubs, at which time the MP’s followed him in and tried to take him into custody. The Teacher informed the MPs that he was not a Service member and that he did not have to listen to them. The MPs then began to try and cuff him, when I stepped up and told them that I knew the guy and that he was in no way associated with the military and that there might be repercussions if they take him on post.
    The MP’s then asked who I was and I informed them about my status. (I’m a DA civilian) They then tried to tell me that they had the right to take the teacher in for two reasons. 1. He was climbing on top of cars parked outside. 2. He was not authorized in a KTA club because they were only for military personnel. At this time I tried to correct them on both matters and they took offense and threatened to “body slam me on the ground, cuff me, and take me in.” I was polite up until this point, but after hearing this I became pissed. I told the MP’s to go ahead and try to take me in for this, and that if they did I would make sure that I would be collecting their paychecks for the rest of their lives.
    At one point in our “discussion” I even told the MP’s that if they truly wanted me and the reached arrested to call the KNP’s. I think that it was about at this point that the MP’s started second guessing themselves, because after a few minutes of discussion amongst themselves they called the KN’s. When the KNP’s showed up and listened to what happened, they basically told the KATUSA that was with the MP’s to not bother them with this kind of B.S.again.
    Anyway, it basically boils down to this. 1. MP’s/SP’s are often ill informed about what their duties are & what they are authorized to do under SOFA. 2. They do frequently over step their authority.
    Additionally, I’ve aways felt that it was wrong to let MP’s/SP’s “patrol” the same area that they go party in. Iv’e seen a few instances where MP’s have taken in a Soldier for “being to drunk” when the Soldier was doing nothing more than talking to the MP’s “girl friend” in a bar.

  • Casanova
    11:23 pm on July 9th, 2012 128

    I don’t think anyone is questioning if the Military Police were wrong, they obviously were.

    I have to question those who look like you may be Military or civilian under SOFA and give the Military Police a hard time when they ask for proof. Do you think the Military Police should just take you for your word? Why not just produce your passport and move on? I have been in a few situations where I had to produce my passport to prove I wasn’t under SOFA, no big deal, the military police said thanks shook my hand and moved on.

  • Seoul Guy
    11:33 pm on July 9th, 2012 129

    Great damage control… This will pass away…

  • Leon LaPorte
    11:59 pm on July 9th, 2012 130

    128. You carry a valuable document like a passport around with you in the bar district at night while presumably drinking?

    The point is they have no right to ask you for it. The KNP can and has the authority to ask anyone for ID on the spot. But, they usually require a good reason for doing so other than USFK’s arbitrary rules. “Your papers” is not a right for them. You may be an American and think it’s A-OK but what about the foreigners they are hassling?

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    12:44 am on July 10th, 2012 131

    The only thing worse than unnecessary and illegal “papers please” are the dumba$$es who go along with it and then start defending it to the point it becomes the new normal.

    Casanova, the SPs have exactly the same authority to ask for your papers as I do. If I come up to you and ask for them, will you show them to me? Will you allow me and my friends to form a ring around you and detain you indefinitely until you agree to show identification? If you make any physical contact with us, will you agree we were justified in defending ourselves against someone who assaulted us? Where is your line of tolerance?

    In another way of thinking, you have no problem submitting to an illegal request to produce your papers because the men are in uniform. Would you submit to a pat-down? Would you submit to a body cavity search? Can they come to your home and look things over in the interests of safety or security?

    How much illegal or abusive action are you willing to accept?

    So do I think the military police should just take my word? It doesn’t matter. They have no right to request any word from me. I have no obligation to give any word to them. They cannot ask for ID from anyone not in the military. Their poorly structured catch-22 system that doesn’t allow them to know if someone is in the military without ID is no excuse for violating the UCMJ, SOFA, Korean law and the civil rights of both Korean and foreign citizens.

    Be it police or civilians, when you give someone an inch, they take a mile. Laws are in place to define exactly where the line is. When police or civilians allow the other side to cross that line, they frequently try to keep going. In America, this results in police brutality, excessive force, constant hassle for trivial infractions and needless damage that is eventually covered by the taxpayer. In Korea, it results in ajushi yelling at the cop not to give him a ticket.

    You can decide what type of country you want to live in but before anyone here supports the actions of young and dumb SPs who violate laws that a lot of thought by smart people went into, you might consider that following the law in most situations is the correct course of action for the protection of both sides.

  • Casanova
    1:11 am on July 10th, 2012 132

    #130, I am not American…

    #131, No one asks me for my passport, I have long hair so I am not mistaken for an American Soldier but I guess they think I am a civilian working on base. Again, what is the big deal showing a document to them? It moves the process on, no big deal. They are there to protect SOFA members, so how do they know if I am SOFA or not without proof? I am hanging out in an area that exists for US Military, if it bothered me that much I wouldn’t hang out there. I am in a foreign country, I am a guest and try to avoid trouble, if you think it is an issue to prove your not SOFA then don’t hang out in an area that is designed for SOFA members.

  • Casanova
    1:20 am on July 10th, 2012 133

    #131, BTW, no need to write a novel.

  • Leon LaPorte
    1:24 am on July 10th, 2012 134

    132. The SP’s are guests in a foreign country as well. While I see your point, I can’t agree with you. It’s too easy to go from “You MIGHT be American, let me see your ID,” to cuffed & stuffed with a full cavity search.

    Despite how you and I fell, they are wrong to ask for them and you’re kinda wrong to encourage them.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    1:30 am on July 10th, 2012 135

    [DELETED BY ADMIN - Personal Attack]

  • Casanova
    1:52 am on July 10th, 2012 136

    #135, great comeback guy.

    #134, I have had to produce I.D. in Europe to U.S. Military Police as well, no big deal really. I don’t have a need to be an A$$hole in a Country that I am a visitor in, I just enjoy and try to get along is all. All U.S. are visitors in Korea and should avoid going against the grain in my opinion, especially off the U.S. Base. If a young Military Police wants to impress someone by asking me for an I.D. then ok, I am confident enough to throw a confidence builder his or her way and move on with what I was doing.

  • Glans
    3:05 am on July 10th, 2012 137

    What if the store owner were a terrorist? Then US forces could kill him with a drone. If he’s innocent, he has nothing to worry about, because the President personally approves every kill.

  • Juan
    10:03 am on July 10th, 2012 138

    Ok, BLUF, I am not trying to bust on the SPs but man where they in the wrong. For those trying to substantiate their actions, how would you feel if a Korean Soldier came up to you in the US because you were parked outside their embassy illegal and then handcuffed you and pulled you inside their embassy. I know not a single American would put up with that BS. So what makes you think it is right for us Americans to do that to the nationals of a country we are guests in. This could have been handled in a much better way but it was not. Think and say what you want about the KNP but remember, this is not our home country. Reverse the situation and make it occur in the US and we would all be pissed off at foreigners enforcing law outside in our civilian areas. Stop being a hypocrite and be honest about the whole situation.

  • DavidH
    9:42 pm on July 10th, 2012 139

    Sounds like Town Patrol has not changed since I left in 06′ overstepping their role, thinking they are the law in Songtan. But I must say in 97′ and 01′ it was different, then I can honestly say Town Patrol was very good, not out to F anyone, keeping GIs out of trouble, coming in to clubs to give a heads up before curfew, using commn sense and keeping GIs safe so they can return to work and continue their mission. In 06′ it was a whole different story, they couldn’t wait to arrest GIs and walk them back to the gate in handcuffs. I really hope the SPs involved are all reprimanded and taken off patrol and regulated to checking IDs at the gate.

  • someotherguy
    10:14 pm on July 10th, 2012 140

    @128,

    Outside that gate it wouldn’t matter anyway. US Military personal have zero jurisdiction outside base’s, their exactly like civilians as far as the sovereign Korean government is concerned. US Service members are under UCMJ which compels them to follow lawful orders of other senior ranking service members or their representatives. The MP’s are the garrison commanders representatives and thus have his(her) authority to detain and order service members back to base. No such authority is provided for US government employees, DoD invited contractors, US citizens or local Korean Nations. SOFA is not a law, it wasn’t written by any lawfully elected legislators nor was it reviewed by a lawfully elected executive. SOFA is a legal agreement between two nations that allows one nation to legally station troops in another nation and provides for the legal framework for any relations between them.

    So many people screw up the idea of jurisdiction and delegated authority.

  • tbonetylr
    11:21 pm on July 10th, 2012 141

    # 134,
    The “foreigners” don’t seem to mind, otherwise they’d contact their embassy, complain, their embassy would then complain to the U.S. embassy and the U.S. would stop asking for “foreigners” I.D.’s :razz:

  • Leon LaPorte
    11:30 pm on July 10th, 2012 142

    141. It has certainly happened.


  • 10:19 pm on July 11th, 2012 143

    I agree that something is fishy, but really comparing the USFK to the Japanese Imperial Army?!?!?! WTF!? Last I checked there were no comfort women and there is still a sovereign government. Please stop being hot headed and start judging individuals not groups. Reverse racism is still racism.

  • J-Dawg
    3:39 am on July 12th, 2012 144

    Well I lived in Korea for 13 years. Can’t say I am surprised. The SP’s at Osan are the worst in all of Korea. Their attitudes changed dramatically from 04. When you have a curfew of midnight and your in handcuffs at 0001 you tell me aren’t these guys just out on a power trip. The incident with them surrounding you, it’s a ploy for you to make contact with them. Then they got you for assault on an officer. I had a friend (contractor) who was booted out for just an incident. He pleaded his case to base commander to no avail. I say I hope they get their just rewards. Maybe, Osan will provide better training to their arrogant young SP from now on. I wish we could do without them out there but, unfortunately we really got some stupid drunk Americans who just F it up.

    I am no longer in Korea but should I return I hope it would got back to the way it was when the SP stopped you from making a complete @$$ of yourself instead of trying to screw you anyway they can. For all those who have had interaction with the SP’s at Osan you know what I’m talking about.

  • Seoul Guy
    5:40 am on July 12th, 2012 145

    SP at Osan can decide which shop is off limit for the US servicemen. Shopkeepers in the area are at the mercy of USFK. They are afraid of Americans for their livelihood. Hankyoreh, the leftist daily newspaper, has published an article in depth. Looks like there will be a demonstration in Songtan. If you want a quick end to this problem get those SPs to apologize.

  • You Get YOUR Facts Straight, Tool
    6:32 am on July 12th, 2012 146

    A half-hearted apology made by SPs under duress is not an apology.

    Publicly turning them over to the Korean legal system instead of letting them hide behind SOFA is the appropriate thing to do. It will show true understanding and regret at causing the situation and it will be excellent political capital the next time fingers are pointed in a situation where GIs should not be handed over to the Korean legal system, such as the 2002 Schoolgirl Incident.

    It will also be a boogieman in Osan LE for years to come that will promote moderation and rational thinking among town patrol and insure incidents like this do not happen again.

    J-Dawg is right. Before 2004, Osan town patrol had a lot of good guys who balanced kicking a$$ on the deserving with making sure good GIs got home safely. No more.

    Law enforcement in the states was different then, too.

  • Retired GI
    1:42 pm on July 12th, 2012 147

    I’m no fan of the SP/MPs. I often saw them being on power trips when I was in Korea. They seem to have been wrong here as well.

    That being said, no chance of them being “handed over” to ANYBODY. Anyone who suggest such a thing is just STUPID.

    Now, my thoughts on a protest outside Osan: Go ahead and do it. :twisted:

    Osan will have a very good reason to lock down the base for the duration. The club on base will be happy about that as well. :lol:

    The SPs will be happy, as there will be less duty for them.
    The Leadership on Osan will be pleased with the excuse to keep their boys and girls on base.

    Take one guess at who will be hurt. Give up? The shops and clubs, who will lose income.

    So…Go ahead and protest. Koreans are great at protesting! The one thing they are really known for.

    Now reminded me who the idiot was that compared this insult to the two Korean girls that were killed.

    You don’t value life at all! Typical of Koreans to confuse an insult with two dead girls.

    Now… go ahead and scream your rage. I fully expect it. ;-)

    Bunch of crybabies.

  • Tom
    3:27 pm on July 12th, 2012 148

    I haven’t seen anywhere which said there will be any protest, but they really should.

    They should be charged with giving false statements, perjury, kidnapping, illegal arrest, assault, and breaking SOFA rules. And then they should be thrown into prison for 20 years in solitary confinement followed by execution by a firing squad. But I’m afraid the SOFA regulations will leave them off the hook once again.

    Check out the English version of how they perjured themselves.

    http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/542031.html

    Furthermore, why are these guys carrying around guns in front of ROK citizens? They’re asking for big trouble, if they’re going to act like American cops and start shooting Koreans in Korea for any minor perceived threats, real or made up. Stupid, real stupid. Korea is not Iraq, and Korea is not dangerous violence struck America. You don’t need guns period. They’re asking for something big to happen here.

    Finally, the people who run businesses, they’re completely fed up with these goons who are supposed to uphold the rules for the GI’s, not break them. The Korean police who are supposed to ensure Korean civilians get proper treatment from these goons, are basically just shoe shine boys for them and the MP’s corrupt ways. MP’s can steal and take whatever they want, and also puts any business off limits for whatever reasons they care to make up.

    Korean business owners have their say about their complaints here.

    http://hani.co.kr/arti/society/society_general/542259.html

    The Korean business owners are afraid to speak up because they don’t want to be shut down, but this is just like Afghanistan. Hell with the few pennies, Korea should just shut down all these entire camp town areas and clean up the filth. So then where will the GI’s go to get drinks and get laid by Filipinas?

  • Retired GI
    3:57 pm on July 12th, 2012 149

    I agree with you Tom.

    Shut down the camp towns.

    GI Joe can get it on with GI Jane.

    Problem solved!

    Everyone is happy.

    That really was an easy fix!

    Now lets get the protest going shall we — SHUT DOWN CAMP TOWNS. SHUT DOWN CAMP TOWNS! Come on, EVERYBODY now—SHUT DOWN CAMP TOWNS! SHUT DOWN CAMP TOWNS!

    GIs are typically only in Korea for ONE year. They don’t care.

    Do it. Shut the Camp Towns down.

  • Leon LaPorte
    6:10 pm on July 12th, 2012 150

    149. Gi Jane gonna get raped. Every time they lock them in. GI Jane either be sitting on a gold mine or ass raped. Its a matter of perspective but the entrepreneurial :roll: military road whores often profit from such “lock downs”. Please, encourage your daughters to join the military.

    /yeah, I know, its not about sex :roll:

  • Tom
    7:26 pm on July 12th, 2012 151

    It’s not GI Janes, but also GI Joes who will get raped. :lol:

    I’m glad you agree with me Retired GI. :lol:

  • Retired GI
    1:45 am on July 13th, 2012 152

    Actually Tom, Butt-sex between males is about the ONLY sex that IS legal in todays Military.
    Of course the females can always rub their nasties together and munch that carpet.

    See Tom, we agree yet again. Osan does not need the Camp Town. Shut it down.

    Shut down the Camp Towns … YEAH! Shut down the Camp Towns … YEAH!

    You know alot about male butt-sex do ya Tom? ;-) Do you give your partner a “reach around”, or do you just bang him selfishly? ;-)
    I’m just curious about how Korean men have sex with each other, since it was the first thought you had. ;-)

    Just kidding Tom. I know you wouldn’t stoop as low as American military do these days. :grin:

  • Tom
    7:55 am on July 13th, 2012 153

    Shut down the Camp Town! Drive out the filth! :smile:

  • it burns...
    12:32 pm on August 29th, 2012 154

    Wow, reading these comments are hurting my eyes especially since it seems to be a lot of just talking smack without actually reading what others are saying and trolling. Since so many Koreans feel as though Americans are hot heads and waiting to pop off here is something for you guys. If it wasn’t for Americans popping off and coming to YOUR aid there would be NO South Korea. Let’s not forget who won Inchon?

  • With Juicy Bar Protests Over, What Is Next For the Osan Ville? | IPOPSOS
    7:41 am on July 23rd, 2013 155

    [...] business.  Many of these business owners are already upset with the base leadership because of the Osan Handcuff Incident last year and the Osan Shakedown Scandal a few years ago as [...]

 

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