It seems pretty ridiculous that the military would allow this pre-school to run for 30 years if in fact their operation is illegal:
Parents of nearly 100 preschool students soon could be scrambling to find day care for their children if military officials determine a long-running Christian preshool at U.S. Army Garrison Yongan has been operating outside of Army regulations.
Garrison officials say a recent anonymous complaint prompted them to look at whether the Mustard Seed Preschool has been operating illegally since it opened in 1976. They have determined that the Army had the authority to establish a chapel-sponsored preschool but found no regulations explaining how to do so, according to Yongsan commander Col. Michael Masley.
During a meeting with parents Friday afternoon, Masley said attorneys are starting to investigate the issue. If the preschool is operating illegally and a way can’t be found for it to operate within regulations, it will be closed, he said. [Stars & Stripes]
You can read the rest at the link, but the daycare is funded by donations from parents which is administered by the on-post chapel. The chapel provides no funds for the daycare it just administers it with the donation money from parents which according to a Stripes’ commenter is about $285 per week. If a chapel administering a daycare program is illegal than shouldn’t the chapel itself on-post be considered illegal because that is basically what it is getting to at this point?
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7:25 am on January 15th, 2013 1
Wow, thanks for making athiests look like douchebags anonymous “whistleblower”
9:12 am on January 15th, 2013 2
“THAN” yes, not just the chapel but the whole Yongsan should be shut down and YankeeS GO HOME
10:32 am on January 15th, 2013 3
It doesn’t matter who administers the program but I do wonder what goes on there.
If they have coloring books like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KwsIaTnfDfA/TnLTt__hjYI/AAAAAAAAAbM/0rh1pZVuAjE/s1600/Jesus+Riding+a+Dinosaur.jpg well, that would seem to be an obvious problem – for a multitude of reasons.
I would think any number of organizations on the installation would be able to “administer” the program. Unless they mean “minister” the program.
1:56 pm on January 15th, 2013 4
I do have to wonder what motivated the anonymous oxygen thief to make the “complaint”. It’s not like parents have a ton of options for childcare overseas. What a pusillanimous maggot.
1:58 pm on January 15th, 2013 5
Edited to add after reading the above: If it was you Leon, I apologize. Just fess up.
2:52 pm on January 15th, 2013 6
Daniel C Dennett and Linda LaScola published “Preachers Who Are Not Believers http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP08122150.pdf in 2010. And here’s an interesting website, the Clergy Project, a confidential online community for active and former clergy who do not hold supernatural beliefs. I ain’t telling y’all what to believe or what to doubt, just pointing out interesting things to read.
3:31 pm on January 15th, 2013 7
#6: “Active” clergy atheists? That’s like saying one is an active warrior pacifist.
They need to find another line of work.
4:45 pm on January 15th, 2013 8
Ten thousand direct complaints about fraud, waste, abuse and corruption but nothing changes. One anonymous complaint about a harmless daycare and leadership is all over it in a heartbeat.
5:09 pm on January 15th, 2013 9
5. Nope wasn’t me but pusillanimous maggot? Holy Hell! That is impressive. I’d have to claim that one if I were less honest.
7. Most true warriors are pacifist. I see no contradiction.
8. Damn pesky constitution thingy.
5:10 pm on January 15th, 2013 10
#7: And that’s why religious studies is full of non-believers.
5:27 pm on January 15th, 2013 11
10. “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” – Isaac Asimov
6:07 pm on January 15th, 2013 12
Hmm liberal circle jerk in 3 .. 2 … 1 …
Anyhow this seems strange. Probably was one of those “good idea at the time” and was setup to run as a pure charity. Nobody did a thorough regulation check and it was just accepted as legit by each commander. In today’s litigation bound super touchy political atmosphere there might be a legal danger to keeping it running. If a child got hurt inside the daycare, or there was some scandal, would the US Army be legally obligated? Common sense would say no as it was a charity, yet there are those who would seek monetary compensation and create a stink about it. Now the Military needs to use CYA.
Honestly they’ll probably just create another USFK regulation / policy authorizing it as a FMWR type service administered by the chapel.
6:48 pm on January 15th, 2013 13
Mr. LaPorte, please elaborate about which part of the Constitution forbids a daycare with voluntary attendance which uses no public funds.
7:15 pm on January 15th, 2013 14
Being a typical hypocrite. My only questios is? Were those Tithes and offering checks allowed as a Tax deductions? If so, gee, I needed a Chapel school a looooong time ago.:)
Even them high ranking Offcers and LQA’ers take every little bit they can get!!!
8:23 pm on January 15th, 2013 15
Gangster pre-school…to cool!!!
Really, no one is making the parents send their kids there, it’s voluntary, and nobody is making money off of it so what is the problem.
If you are concerned about the constitution then get rid of all chaplins and chapels on post.
I am an atheist and this is about the dumbest thing I have heard. Believe what you want to believe, don’t force it on me, I won’t force my beliefs (or lack there of) on you and we will all get along.
Like 8 said, this is the best investigation they can come up with…really???
8:36 pm on January 15th, 2013 16
“a harmless daycare”
I’d hardly say it’s harmless if indeed they were pushing religious views. Even if they weren’t if it turns out the daycare is operating illegally then it needs to be closed down and replaced by one that follows the guidelines.
Don’t use the “but what about the billion other FWA complaints” excuse to justify somthing found to be in the wrong.
And no I’m not the whistleblower, I live and work in Area 1.
10:02 pm on January 15th, 2013 17
13. The chapel is administering it. The chapel and chaplains are funded by tax payers. I agree it is a fine line and I do not really think it is a big deal. However, if it is the only daycare offered on post and there is any sort of religious (any flavor) instruction then by default people are left with no choice but to send their children there.
We have FAMILY MRW. With as much as AAFES overcharges for gas* and other items, I’m sure they could afford to handel this program.
15. If you are concerned about the constitution then get rid of all chaplins and chapels on post.
I could not agree more. I’m not against chaplains per se, but they should be funded by their respective organizations not from DoD funds. I see no reason why they need actual officer rank either. They could have ranks like CHAP01-CHAP05 with equivalencies (for protocol and internal management purposes) specifically outlined by regulation.
I mean we are talking about deferring training and maintenance in the DoD due to the budget, meanwhile the army just constructed a multimillion dollar stone cathedral on Camp Casey. They couldn’t have services in a multi-use facility? After all, it’s not where you pray, yadda, yadda…
*If AAFES can cut the gas price 0.05 cents a gallon for using your charge card it isn’t difficult to figure they are over charging at least that much.
12:08 am on January 16th, 2013 18
GI, I’m stuck in the spam filter! Can you help please?
12:17 am on January 16th, 2013 19
Hmmm. I keep getting filter pwned but can’t figure out which word it is. Pardon the on purpose mis-spellings, please.
…and apparently the seecret squirrel, *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*, name for this institution is actually the “Mustard Seed Christian Pre-School.”
Here is how it is written up on a few different sites (you can gooogle for the links if you care to – and yes some are even mil sites):
MUSTARD SEED PRE-SCHOOL – SOUTH POST CHAPEL
A quality Christian education program offered to Yongsan area military, DOD and embassy families. Mustard Seed promotes spiritual, soociial, emotional, physical and intellectual development through Bible stories, developmentally appropriate activities, and lots of sociial interaction.
Yongsan’s Mustard Seed Program
A Christian preschool designed to emphasize Christian values for US military or civilian base employees. (what about all the other values?)
12:19 am on January 16th, 2013 20
cont…
I was giving it the benefit of the doubt but now all doubt is removed. This is not a secuular program which just so happens to be administered by the chapel (as some would have us believe). It is a religious school. They had a good run and got away with it for quite a while. Kudos to them on that!
1:04 am on January 16th, 2013 21
It is a harmless daycare, as I understand it.
It is completely voluntary for both the customers and providers. It is run completely through donations. It has successfully provided a needed service for 30 years. It has no effect on those not involved.
But someone has to screw it up and others have to support the complainers, even though its existence costs them nothing and has no affect on their lives.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is why we cannot have nice things.
Busybodies like someotherguy believe a valuable daycare that IS authorized to exist but may be in violation of some obscure rule (that has not yet been identified) is a problem equal to the massive fraud, waste and abuse that nobody seems to notice.
A volunteer daycare can push whatever they want. Don’t like it? Send your kids elsewhere. Isn’t one available? Start a volunteer atheist daycare.
Those who pee on other’s parades, especially when it gives them no gain but just tears others down, deserve no respect.
Someotherguy, are you a Filipina juicy? That is their speed.
1:52 am on January 16th, 2013 22
The swat team should of rushed in and cracked some skulls. How dare this daycare carry religious values. For Shame! This school should of been teaching pre marital sex education, gaydism and all the walls removed of all crosses and reagan posters and replaced with Obama posters
I actually went into a chow hall at fort lee and the cooks erected an President Obama shrine…..took up a whole quarter of one of the dining rooms
7:04 am on January 16th, 2013 23
I just read the story in the print edition of the Stars & Stripes this morning. It’s not the ties to the chapel that puts the kibosh on the program. That honor goes to the fact that there’s no regulation providing for the Chapel to administer the school. The thing to worry about is that the staff at the school don’t all have background checks and the ones that do have them don’t happen to have the same level of check.
7:08 am on January 16th, 2013 24
#23 People who make anonymous complaints due to “concerns about deviating from the regs” are typically awesome individuals.
7:21 am on January 16th, 2013 25
I fail in understanding why it is an either or, or us and them game. I am a conservative. I believe in 100$ religious freedom and female reproductive freedom. How did gays, etc. come into this conversation? The point is if it were a madrassa teaching of Mohammed there would be an uproar.
What about religious freedom? Oh, only Christian religious freedom. That’s OK. Christianity has always been harmless.
I got a crazy idea (along the lines which even God recognizes according to the oft ignored owners manual). Teach secular worldly shit for survival in the real world and prepare the children for the hereafter at home and church. There is no need to mix the two.
7:34 am on January 16th, 2013 26
#25 Military chapels are open to all denominations. They even had wiccan gatherings at the military chapel in Sumter I’m assuming it isn’t unique. If parents want their preschoolers to receive a religious education that should be their right, and the chapel is the most feasible place for military parents stationed overseas. It isn’t like the states where there are many places to choose from. What’s next? Are they going to ban vacation bible school too? Who are these knuckleheads? I don’t care if the parents want the toddlers and preschoolers to color Christ riding a saddled chicken they still believe in Santa Claus who gives a sh*t?
8:13 am on January 16th, 2013 27
Liz 7, a middle-aged guy whose education and experience are religion doesn’t have a lot of career options. If he seeks another line of work, he’ll have trouble feeding his family. He might also lose a lot of friends. Even for a guy who no longer believes the dogma, his church may have provided fellowship.
So the non-believing preacher is stuck. There’s some unknown percentage of clergy out there who no longer believe in the virgin birth and divinity of Christ but keep on preaching it. That pdf in Glans 6 gives some examples.
1:52 am on January 17th, 2013 28
UPDATE: The South Post Chapel could possibly be closed thanks to the latest revelations. It seems for the last 60 years this facility has been holding religious like activities. These atrocities were over looked for many years much like the Penn State situation.
However starting just about four years ago some people began to take notice of these activities. At first the victims just would go to this activity but now it has come to a head. Apparently a good number of people are now complaining about the Chapels apparent religious slant.
The CG has been notified and an joint investigation by the CID, FBI, CIA and the AARP is on going.
An unnamed source was quoted as saying ” we just cant look away while these events seem to happen every Weds, Saturdays and on multiple occasions on Sundays”
Keep tuned in for results of this explosive news story
1:59 am on January 17th, 2013 29
Next breaking story……”On Post Kennel Holding Animals Against Their Will”
Hard to believe but many sources are confirming this.
Stay Tuned!
We report…..You decide!
2:02 am on January 17th, 2013 30
28. So we’d have no problem if it were a Muslim run daycare, right. Religious freedom and all, right? If it were a satanic church the Christians of Area II would band together and march arm in arm to guarantee the religious freedom of the satanists. I’m confident they would.
The bottom line is they have been running a religious indoctrination program with the blessing of the government. That’s a no-no regardless of which religion it is.
Like I said before, all those who were claiming it was secular and only administered by the chapel have had to back off.
2:04 am on January 17th, 2013 31
29. LOL. I had to start watching Foxxy News with the sound off. I was catching the loony.
Fair, balanced, and unafraid!
2:20 am on January 17th, 2013 32
Pizza slices are actually cut from Pizzas….or ARE THEY?!!!!
An unnamed source from Anthony’s Pizza Speaks Out….
2:30 am on January 17th, 2013 33
32. Don’t you mean Anthony’s “Pizza”???
Blech! Why hasn’t that franchise died a well deserved death?
In other news daycare ≠ church services.
2:48 am on January 17th, 2013 34
This school should of been teaching pre marital sex education, gaydism and all the walls removed of all crosses and reagan posters and replaced with Obama posters
Are those walls to which the crosses are affixed walls which were built and are maintained with the public’s tax dollars? I also suspect it would be inappropriate to hang red crescents, blue diamonds, green clovers, etc.
I don’t know about Obama posters but many military facilities do display his picture on the chain of command wall. They had to replace the Reagan picture with Bush Sr., then Clinton, then Bush Jr., and finally Obama. In about four years his picture will be replaced by someone else. (I wish I knew who, I’d make a fortune in Vegas). The downside, I guess, is that it is exceedingly unlikely to be Reagan.
Yeeessssss. because if you aren’t teaching the bible the only other subjects available are “pre marital(sic) sex education and gaydism.” It’s one or the other, people. “We can’t teach the bible children, so we’re going to teach gaydism, sorry that’s our only option.”
Math, language, science and all that crap are a waste of time. The Lord will provide.
3:12 am on January 17th, 2013 35
Um… wouldn’t they be strict constitutionalists?
3:24 am on January 17th, 2013 36
35. Hoo Ha! I, for one, identify with the conservatives. I love Reagan and the Bushes although I disagreed with some of their positions. I just like the constitution and I like to protect government from religion and religion from the government.
I also have no desire to live in a theocracy.
Hell, I like the constitution so much I can even tolerate the current president who was elected by the majority of our citizens. I don’t have to like him or agree with him, but I support him. Some folks can’t seem to get their head around that. It doesn’t have to be a hate fest. Must be miserable.
1:48 pm on January 17th, 2013 37
Of course no one is saying these parents can’t set up their own little madrassa to indoctrinate (“educate” is not the appropriate word choice here) their children into any belief system they like. We wish you’d wait until the kids grow up and develop critical thought before they have to make decisions about their immortal souls but we know that won’t happen, and we know why. Religion dies if you don’t start them out very young. Wonder why that is? But I digress, they just shouldn’t use government facilities to do their “good works.”
2:27 pm on January 17th, 2013 38
Leon, there’s some unknown percentage of ministers who’ve stopped believing what they’re preaching. You may want to review the links I provided in 6. Maybe the kids will be so lucky as to be indoctrinated by one of them.
3:15 am on January 18th, 2013 39
Parents are known to have house cats and at first its innocent. However as time go on the cats brain wash the children. After a year of treatment the cats are calling all the shots with the children.
3:28 am on January 18th, 2013 40
39. You’re silly. I like you.
3:59 pm on January 18th, 2013 41
39. Also, dog is god spelled backwards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jupGy_v7VE8
Kill your parents
2:46 am on January 19th, 2013 42
And Cat spelled backwards is “TAC” also Taco spelled backwards is “OCAT” Speaking of which all the posters and reading materials at this day care center are now being converted so everything is spelled backwards.
An unnamed source was quoted as saying ” before we begin burning these offensive possibly religious materials we should first try having them read backwards….after all if you play “The Walrus” back words you can hear a message from the devil or Yoko Ono so lets try it in our reading materials”
More to follow
2:58 am on January 19th, 2013 43
I was thinking that racecar spelled backwards is racecar spelled backwards is racecar again. That’s downright confounding.
7:07 am on January 19th, 2013 44
43. Only in NASCAR country.
10:02 am on January 19th, 2013 45
And three and four year olds can’t drive.
And NASCAR spelled backwards is RACSAN. Coincidence? I think not.
4:44 pm on January 19th, 2013 46
And a horse of course of course …..also I find if you spell the word “MISSISSIPPI” forward it will infact contain four “S’s, Three “I’s Two “P’s and get this …..One M
Think about that you Muster Seed Bashing Yoko Ono worshiping Tarts!!!!
Remember; We are the world, we are the children….(I made that up)
6:25 pm on January 19th, 2013 47
Chapels & Chaplains are not unconstitutional as they have been in the military since Revolutionary War days. Since this daycare center is an extension of the chapel I really don’t see the problem. One of the post that I was stationed at (I think it was Ft Hood) had an Islamic center on post so if they ran a daycare center then BFD. If an atheist or secular humanist group wanted to open a daycare center then again BFD. In the post DADT military if a “gay pride” group wanted to open a daycare center for homosexual or lesbian troops then BFD. Chaplains are important to help maintain morale which contributes to mission accomplishment. If you are an atheist soldier & don’t want to see a chaplain then see a social worker, family therapist, or whatever.
6:44 pm on January 19th, 2013 48
I think the person who anonymously called it in was just behaving as the Bible foretold in 2 Peter 3:3-9:
————
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
————
You can do what you want, for now…
3:13 am on January 20th, 2013 49
Yes and the Kittens will invade and all will be under the control of a great cat named Spots and Spots will demand all cats to be fed moist food not dry….and Yes on the next day the kitty litter needs desperate changing
3:15 am on January 20th, 2013 50
47. Chapels & Chaplains are not unconstitutional as they have been in the military since Revolutionary War days.
Yes, because if we have always done it, it must be right. During the revolutionary war we had slavery (justified by the book those chaplains carry), senators weren’t elected, and stealing a horse was a hanging offense. If it was good enough for gran-pappy it’s good enough for me. The troops actually could use psychiatric professionals. With the epidemic of suicides in our armed services, it is apparent the wisdom of the bronze age isn’t cutting it. How about switching that around and make actual medical professionals the default?
I’m curious. Why, if someone is not Christian, does the gay thing come up? Gays are such a small percentage of earths population. There are both religious and nonreligious gays. Why the fixation?
48. You can do what you want, for now…
I love it! The self assured smugness. It must get you wet. ..and it against your professed belief system. I’m tired of posting quotes, you “Christians” ignore more than half the text anyway. It’s a waste of time. You don’t even believe what you push out. But the love of seeing others suffer is innate. Over 5/6th of the worlds currently living population will burn in hell. I know what you imply… Praise the Lord. You’d think your deity could do a better job getting the word out. Oh, I know it’s all a test. I had a jealous girlfriend in high school just like god.
7:28 am on January 20th, 2013 51
Leon, during the Revolutionary War, senators weren’t elected because they didn’t exist. God didn’t create senators until the Constitution was approved by nine states.
7:41 am on January 20th, 2013 52
51. The public did not directly elect senators until 1913 but it seems you get my point.
7:42 am on January 20th, 2013 53
#50: Leon have you ever known a psychiatrist to raise morale? Psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate of any profession.
7:58 am on January 20th, 2013 54
53. I certainly do not have the answers on mental health, nor do I claim to. It just seems that some sort of modern medical profession might be better suited to helping these soldiers. I know when most of us have a disease, illness, or injury we visit a medical doctor, presumably schooled in early 21st century techniques – not a witch doctor or shaman shaking a chicken bone or speaking through a medium to a disembodied head. Yet, this is the approach some are advocating for mental versus physical health. There’s also the very real option that there are some people you just can’t reach. For whatever reason, they no longer wish to go on. At some point, it is their life to do with as they will.
Have you considered that the people visiting a psychiatrist are at a higher risk in the first place? Else wise they wouldn’t be visiting a psychiatrist. Hospitals have a pretty high death rate as well.
8:08 am on January 20th, 2013 55
#54: The psychiatrists themselves commit suicide more than any other profession, I wasn’t speaking of their patients (though I’m sure psychiatric patients commit suicide at far higher rates than churchgoers too).
Consider what morale is exactly. It’s not a tangible thing (though science has tried to portion together the right chemicals for ‘happy’ and bottle them up and sell them, and they work to a certain extent). I do know morale has a lot to do with unit performance (“The moral is to the physical as three to one”) and it can’t be prescribed by a doctor.
8:24 am on January 20th, 2013 56
55. Chaplains are certainly not the sole purveys of morale.
For many years now, physicians overall have had the highest suicide rate compared to people in any other line of work. Perhaps the stress of dealing with other peoples problems? Perhaps they see a lot more death themselves and become depressed?
Assertions about which occupational group has the most suicides float around like urban myths.
Dentists come in at number one on the survey linked below. They are 5.45 times more likely to commit suicide than average.
So I guess soldiers should visit the chaplain when they have a tooth ache.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/jobs-commit-suicide-2010-10?op=1#ixzz2Ib2V8DYY
While on the topic, clergy have a rising suicide rate as well. http://padresteve.com/2011/05/01/clergy-burnout-and-suicide-a-growing-problem/
8:30 am on January 20th, 2013 57
#56 Chaplains aren’t the sole purveys of morale (which is good, or non-believers could never have morale), but religion is a fundamental psychological coping mechanism practiced by millions of people, including a high portion of the military. I can’t think of any good reason that should be taken away from them, it’s rather the contrary. And I don’t know anyone who goes to the dentist for suicide intervention so I’m not sure of your point there.
8:36 am on January 20th, 2013 58
57. religion is a fundamental psychological coping mechanism practiced by millions of people
To kind of steer things a bit back toward the thread topic: If we ceased to indoctrinate children from the earliest of ages, without their informed consent, this would no longer be the case.
8:39 am on January 20th, 2013 59
OTOH, if dentists seemed to have far more trouble fixing teeth than others, and their own teeth were filled with cavities and falling out from gum disease wouldn’t you think twice about going to them for a toothache?
8:41 am on January 20th, 2013 60
#58: If religion is indoctrination than any other form of teaching is also indoctrination. Children are taught at a young age to establish a habit patterns. We’re all the product of our habit patterns, learned throughout life and those habits influence both who we are, how we feel, and what we do in virtually every respect.
8:49 am on January 20th, 2013 61
There is a vast gulf of difference between indoctrination and education. If religion could be “educated” we could wait until the age of consent and reason to educate children about religion.
To save some typing, the copy-pasta:
The difference between education and indoctrination is vast, but it is often subtle when the mind thinks of these two subjects. Education involves the seeking of facts, and learning about what is the truth, and what is not. Indoctrination is aimed at influencing people to believe in facts, without being able to back up these newfound facts with anything but opinion.
You can be indoctrinated into a political party, a cult, or a belief system. In fact, all of us are indoctrinated into a belief system as we are growing up. Whether our parents or guardians are open and understanding people, or if they are bigoted, and want nothing to do with anyone outside of their own race and affiliations, we are subtly indoctrinated into their belief system. As we grow, many of us seek education in order to develop our own belief system.
Education can be directly supported by data that is derived from facts. Indoctrination tends to use language that encompasses everything, referring to ‘all’, or ‘every’, as though the insights created are a statement of fact for each and every individual of a group. For example: ‘All democrats spend too much money.’ ‘All republicans are religiously oriented and bring the bible to work with them.’ You can’t support these statements of ‘all’ and ‘every’ without actual data. If you believe it, then it has grown from opinion to indoctrination.
Education points out that there are different solutions, often to the same problem. Indoctrination poses the belief that there is only one solution to a problem. In Nazi Germany, the solution to growing economic problems was to exterminate all minorities and Jewish citizens, as though this was the only possible solution. There was no room for any kind of secondary thought to the proposed solution.
Education uses statistical analysis to encourage thought toward reasoning, and proposed solution finding. Indoctrination often uses statistics, but has offered no analysis of size, duration, control subjects, criteria, or duration of the gathering of those statistics. Thus, the statistics offered through indoctrination are simply misrepresented, and are used only to support the beliefs being posed. Any statistics that might dispute the beliefs are not brought to attention.
Education is unbiased. It is founded in fact, and isn’t there to persuade anyone to come up with a certain belief. Education is development of one’s own beliefs based on the facts that are discovered throughout the process. Indoctrination has an agenda. It is used to encourage the embracing of another’s beliefs, and developing blinding and complete agreement with those beliefs.
Read more: Difference Between Education and Indoctrination | Difference Between | Education vs Indoctrination http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-education-and-indoctrination/#ixzz2Ib9JaoTU
9:08 am on January 20th, 2013 62
Wow! BUSTED!
Are the CMD Group groupies gunna shut down the MASONS?
9:09 am on January 20th, 2013 63
I don’t need cut and paste. What passes for education is certainly not unbiased.
Seriously? You went to school too, yes? You (and the writer in question) must be thinking of science. Science is an objective assesssment (or it’s supposed to be, though this also isn’t true in practical reality (there is often evidence of widespread manipulation of conclusions and spurious notoriety from studies funded by industry).
This would take a book, and there have been books written on this subject anyway…I’ll just say It is objectively true that people are the product of their environments and habit patterns create positive and negative associations in the psyche. This is true on the small scale with little behaviors (smoking, exercise for instance), and it’s true with overall perception and influence on personality (altruistic behaviors, essential psychological coping mechanisms, ect).
Habit patterns create negative or positive associations. For instance, if I nearly always eat cheesy poofs/smoke/have a beer while I’m typing on the computer I eventually feel an irresistible urge for cheesy poofs/smokes/beer whenever I sit down at the computer. If I exercise every day I feel the need to exercise every day. Happens in all human interactions (for everyone, from saints to d*ckheads) too. Habit patterns establish who we are. You don’t wait until a child is an adult to establish a pattern that is helpful in life. They can drop this habit pattern if they deem it worthless when they reach adulthood, but any caring parent is going to offer their child something they believe to be valuable.
9:21 am on January 20th, 2013 64
63. I agree with 90% of what you wrote except for the implication that religion is a helpful pattern in life, as you put it.
You’re right, we could write gigantic tomes on the issue. More case in point, the Christian preschool needs to be replaced with a preschool. I am certain there were many parents who would have preferred to send their children to a secular preschool but didn’t (or felt they didn’t) have a choice. If any tax money is going into it, or supporting it (facilities, etc.), that needs to be diverted toward a non-biased secular preschool.
If parents really want the indoctrination, they can do so on their own time and at their own expense. Hell, with as much money as many of these religious organizations rake in, you’d think they would offer indoctrination for free. You know, to make sure the next generation of rubes fall in line and keep the political power in the right hands and more importantly, the money keeps flowing.
The ultimate self-perpetuating, multi-generational scam and the gift that keeps giving.
12:58 pm on January 20th, 2013 65
Sort of odd name for a preschool, “Mustard Seed”, eh? That is, until one learns where the name is derived from. It comes from a parable of Jesus wherein a mustard seed is considered a tiny, next-to-nothing sort of thing, from which a considerable plant can grow. The parable likens small acts taken to promote Christianity to mustard seeds, that can grow into a much larger Christian expressions. Obviously then, the intent of the founders and promoters of this preschool was and is to proselytize young minds in the Christian belief system. Far better to teach them simple epistemological concepts at that age, to begin building a worldview that could immunize them against irrational belief systems.
And, for those who think that religions offer psychological comfort to the distressed; please consider that this is only possible if those in emotional discomfort have been previously indoctrinated in the irrational concepts of the respective religions. You know, like an addict being comforted by his drug, regardless of how it harms him.
1:45 pm on January 20th, 2013 66
#65: We are all just a combination of chemicals Cal. That same could be said of anything. What is “rational” in broad scheme of things? Acts of kindness? Hope? Freedom? Liberty? Like faith, they are all arbitrary constructs.
4:04 pm on January 20th, 2013 67
66. There is no reason to load people up with shame and guilt from the get go. I would submit early religious indoctrination is a major root cause for suicide. I do not see how anyone who is rational thinks it is reasonable or helpful to teach people that they are basically born bad. And, that they must beg and atone daily to an entity which constantly cruelly tests them, kills them and their loved ones, allows starvation, rape and abuses of all kinds – even though it could stop it. Of course when individuals, even otherwise intelligent and rational individuals are confronted, the indoctrination kicks in. They are taught to defend the illogical, the irrational and the cruel. They thought of most everything with lessons about doubters, persecution, and of course hellfire and brimstone.
In this modern age we can break the cycle of abuse. Stop teaching kids to hate their bodies and despise their sexuality. Did you even think the highly repressive sexual regime may be a contributing factor which leads to one of the things Christians hate most: homosexuality? One need look no further than Catholic priests to get a pretty good idea of at least one way the evil that is religion manifests itself.
Fortunately, at least the western modern world, we are starting to wake from the induced comma of unreasoning. The religions are dying, hopefully no bright and creative individuals will come along and create more. Allow them to die. If they are the way to the “truth,” they will somehow survive. Anyone should be able to grok that.
4:09 pm on January 20th, 2013 68
#67: ” I would submit early religious indoctrination is a major root cause for suicide”.
Is there some objective evidence for this predisposition beyond your (obviously non-objective) opinion?
4:24 pm on January 20th, 2013 69
68. You seem to lack a bit of objectivity as well, but that likely cannot be helped. However, it would seem obvious. Just from personal experience I have seen the misery religion can bring into peoples lives. Even those who escape it have latent side effects. In many cases we are talking 10-15 years of indoctrination, it’s hard to put those “lessons” aside no matter how one intellectually knows it to me false. It would seem to follow any other pattern of child abuse, the results of which manifest throughout adult life.
If you only pinged on that small portion of the above statement, there may be hope for you! But I warn you, you’ll always be stuck with the baggage.
Although the Mustard Seed is nowhere near as bad, it is still indoctrination (it’s good to see that proof silenced those who denied it) but still we are reminded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
4:35 pm on January 20th, 2013 70
#69 I have never claimed to be objective.
No human is objective. The least honest sorts claim objectivity. I am riddled with baggage (but I don’t have cellulite baggage thank God!).
I will take this response as a “no” outside of your realm of personal experience. Suicide rates do not appear to decline in states where religion declines. The places with highest rates of suicide are the most state-centric areas where religion has been anathem (for example Russia, and the former eastern block countries).
4:51 pm on January 20th, 2013 71
70. I have enjoyed our conversation.
I’ll have to look for some data for you, but I doubt that any data would change your mind. You’d “reason” yourself out of it. As far as Russia and its neighbors, you might think that other factors besides lack of religion may lead to suicide, which is a complicated issue. The grinding poverty, government oppression, hell even the weather and long hours of cold winter darkness may come into play.
BTW: Most Russians I know are at least somewhat religious (surprise). Even the Soviets couldn’t kill it – which doesn’t mean religion is a good thing. The Soviets couldn’t root out epidemic alcoholism either.
It is worth noting that Putin, obviously a very cunning guy, is using a resurgent church to bolster his control. Smart guy.
10:16 pm on January 20th, 2013 72
Liz said “69″
10:20 pm on January 20th, 2013 73
72. giggity
1:23 am on January 21st, 2013 74
Leon you have it backwards. A great many people with problems are attracted to religion and its promise to solve those problems. For many, the problems are never solved but the symptoms are hidden under acceptance, pity, attention, understanding and other aspects of a religious social network.
Their children may be better off in a caring church environment than a troubled home environment with no ethical or moral framework.
Prayer is a great coping mechanism, inexpensive and unlimited self medication for those who cannot or will not seek “professional” help. It may be equally effective/poisonous as a large percentage of mental health professionals are as troubled as their patients.
1:33 am on January 21st, 2013 75
You are right. Troubled people are attracted to religion unless they were already indoctrinated early in life. Religion would still get some desperate people but the numbers would be quite a bit fewer.
Funny. I’m pretty sure ethics and morality predate Christianity. There are great swaths of earth where Christianity does not exist yet there are moral and ethical people. Why do you assume a household free from religion lacks morals and ethics? Is that what you were taught? I do not require the threat of eternal damnation nor the promise of eternal paradise in order to do what it right.
What are these morals and ethics you speak of? The ones taught in the bible which justify genocide, rape, bigotry, slavery, the inequality of women? Humanity would do fine without those, thank you.
Prayer is the greatest way to do nothing in order to improve your (and that of others) situation. So very sad to give desperate people false hope and lies.
Prayer is a great coping mechanism, inexpensive and unlimited self medication for those who cannot or will not seek “professional” help.
Replace prayer with alcohol.
1:45 am on January 21st, 2013 76
My two cents on some of this…
Argus Mayfield, I do like your answer in #74.
Leon wrote:
What would the mechanism for that be? I guess you hinted at it regarding “one of the things Christians hate most” (i.e., homosexuality), but for non-gays, what would it be?
I do take issue with your characterization, mostly because I think Christians reflect cultural attitudes on homosexuality as much as the other way around. Some of the most aggressive or violent gay bashers I know of are not at all Christian. Meanwhile, I’m Christian and I support same-sex marriage (like our president does), and I have had conversations with dozens of new arrivals to Hawaii who asked about finding gay-friendly churches in Honolulu (not because they are gay, but because they simply are seeking out an open congregation), of which there are quite a few.
Even in Seoul, back in 2004 or 2005, I went to the English-language service of a prominent Protestant (non-Presbyterian) congregation and had a discussion with the minister about his ministry, and he talked about “reconciliation,” as he explained that it was bout being welcoming and accepting of gays.
So please don’t lump all Christians together. Maybe what you’re saying would still be correct, though, if the open Christians are those even you would agree tend not to “indoctrinate” much but simply explore spirituality through their faith.
I get the feeling, though, that you think all faith and religious tradition are useless at best and detrimental at worst.
2:05 am on January 21st, 2013 77
I’m Christian and I support same-sex marriage
Why do you people insist on calling yourselves Christian when you clearly are not? You cannot pick and choice what you follow, God’s word is not ala carte. The belief you subscribe to bears little semblance to what is written in the bible. It has been watered down in order to maintain acceptance in a modern society. How can you support gay marriage and call yourself a Christian? The word of God is clear. Do you just like having a group to identify with?
I suspect that if it were required for the religion to survive, almost every passage in the bible (if not the bible itself) would become unenforced and irrelevant. This is how indoctrination works. There would be an explanation. Everything would be clearly explained, so even a child could understand.
Don’t worry, it’s all a test. The deity that created the entire universe is interested in little old you and me! When we sleep, or if we wear a hat, or eat shrimp, it even cares about how (and with whom) we play with our naughty bits. Isn’t religion ultimately solipsistic in nature?
4:12 am on January 21st, 2013 78
Leon, how is religion solipsistic?
8:10 am on January 21st, 2013 79
Feck it. Let’s just do whatever we want whenever we want wherever we want.
It’s all broken anyway….
8:18 am on January 21st, 2013 80
RE #77
Jesus proclaimed that his coming abrogated the covenant between God and the Jews, opening the way to salvation for all, so any laws laid down in the Old Testament are null and void. Christians who cite Leviticus 18 as justification for their opposition to same-sex marriages while ignoring other prohibitions and punishments commanded by God in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are the pickers and choosers. Since Jesus’ life on earth replaced the covenant, I’m not sure why Christians bothered to incorporate the Old Testament into their Bible, other than to support their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and appeal to potential Jewish converts.
8:49 am on January 21st, 2013 81
In the last sentence, I was referring to early Christians.
12:40 pm on January 21st, 2013 82
78. Perhaps narcissistic would be a better term. And, I think that should be obvious.
80. New covenant… So god made a mistake with the first one? For an inerrant, eternal entity it seems mighty wishy washy. I want this, no, I want that.”
“Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)
“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’ (Matthew 23:1-3)”
Christians always say as an excuse that an Old Testament law does not apply to them. According to Matthew 5:17-18, we clearly see that Jesus honored the Old Testament, and forced Christians to follow the unmodified laws of it that have not been replaced by newer ones in the New Testament.
It’s just that your religion wouldn’t be able to survive that, so it is constantly watered down and modified. You’d that a divinely inspired book from the all knowing, eternal creator of all things would be able to take this into account. Or, perhaps it is all made up. It sort of reads like a book written by uneducated tribesmen who had no knowledge of the world outside their own little portion of desert and were more concerned with earthly petty squabbles. But there’s good advice in there on not boiling baby goats in their own mothers milk and how to beat your wife.
Most Christians are only Christian in a legalistic sense anyway (if that, some in name only because daddy was and we learned we were too in preschool), and they think it’s cute when they apply their workarounds.
I have to grudgingly respect the religionists who actually attempt to follow their religions (as flawed as they are) to the letter, often at great personal sacrifice. I mean if you’re going to do it, don’t half ass it, this is God we’re talking about and He can see right through your guise. The Westboro Baptist guys and the Taliban come to mind as setting the example.
I think I recall a Sunday school teacher (a woman, big no-no) telling us that God would love a righteous nonbeliever over a lukewarm Christian. I think even the pope, the vicar of Christ on earth, has even stated that Jesus is not the only path to heaven. I’m not sure he thought that all the way through to its logical conclusion. Thanks pope! You evil bastard!
3:14 pm on January 21st, 2013 83
Christianity quit being my religion ten years ago when I realized all the illogical contradictions. I’m an atheist like you.
3:37 pm on January 21st, 2013 84
83. Sorry Sogani, I was still half asleep.
4:31 pm on January 21st, 2013 85
No need to apologize, Leon. I’ve been accused of much worse.
11:28 pm on January 21st, 2013 86
I was walking about my house this AM when a voice range out from below. I was frightened and searched for a light and once I found the switch there’ist I found a large being with lots of hair and fanged teeth. I tried to leave’ith the room but it blocked my exit by tripping my up at my feet.
I looked down and once I was able focus in I saw….MY cat screaming at me…Feed me Be’otch…..I can only guess this is what she said it sounded more like a loud screaming MEOW noise. Then I heard a voice from the other room that sound much like my wife…..”If you feed it, it will shut up”.
At first I thought it was just a voice in my head….then the voice came back and is spoke “FEED THE DAMN CAT” I saw this as a sign then I reached for the food and fed the cat.
After feeding the cat the voice recessed into a light snoring noise and the Meowing stopped.