It looks like the curfew is here to stay for good once again:
General James Thurman
The off-installation curfew for U.S. servicemembers in South Korea will continue indefinitely, according to a general order issued Monday by U.S. Forces Korea commander Gen. James Thurman.
“This curfew is imposed due to operation and mission-readiness requirements,” Thurman wrote in a memorandum. “I expect USFK will maintain an appropriate state of awareness and mission preparedness for a significant period.”
The order, which replaces a similar one issued in December 2011, says the curfew “will be reviewed as needed to determine its continued suitability.” The previous order said the curfew would be reviewed quarterly.
Attempts to get comment from USFK officials on why the new order was issued were unsuccessful Thursday. [Stars & Stripes]
You can read the rest at the link, but I really wish the stated rationale of “mission readiness” would stop being used. When troops hear that it makes the USFK leadership seem disingenuous because everyone knows the curfew is not about mission readiness, but instead put in place in an attempt to decrease incidents between servicemembers and Korean civilians by keeping servicemembers off the streets at night.
Anyway like I have repeatedly said, the USFK leadership should have never dropped the curfew in the first place if they were not willing to take the political heat the first time an incident happens. Sure enough they were not willing to take the heat and the curfew came right back. That is why I have always advocated for the Warrior Pass policy from a decade ago because USFK senior leaders always turn back to reinstating a curfew because it is the easy response to make it look like something is being done. With my Warrior Pass idea USFK servicemembers who are not causing trouble would not be effected by the curfew.
You can read more about my Warrior Pass idea at the below link:
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2:37 am on January 19th, 2013 1
Also now that the curfew is in place for ever…it should be known of the benefits. More money for after hours clubs on posts. Soldiers spending more time trashing the barracks…continuous drama at the gate….”15 seconds…Hurry up” More interesting conversations…”What time did you come in last night?” “About one.”
More drama for off post people having to deal AGAIN with that drunk friend who cannot return to post.
Curfew is On Baby!
3:23 am on January 19th, 2013 2
Kingkitty wrote:
On dozens of occasions, I’ve come on base at all hours of the early morning to attend VTCs (that take place during mid-day back in the US). The first time, I was worried and thought I’d have to go into a lengthy explanation as to why I was coming on base well after curfew had gone into effect – or wait for the gate guard to confer with the MP desk. But the gate guard just scanned my ID and let me pass on through – and never said a word. It’s been that way every time.
Maybe because I don’t look like a drunk 20-something, the guard figures I’m on duty. Hard to say.
5:43 am on January 19th, 2013 3
“This curfew is imposed due to operation and mission-readiness requirements,” Thurman wrote in a memorandum. “I expect USFK will maintain an appropriate state of awareness and mission preparedness for a significant period.”
So can it be assumed that a General Order prohibiting the consumption of alcohol will follow? I mean, if this is about “awareness” and “mission preparedness”?
How does a 1am curfew provide that if everyone is wasted at 1am and hungover through the morning and early afternoon? How are forces more aware and prepared at 5:01am verses 4:57am? At 12:56am verses 1:13am?
The point is that the statement from leadership doesn’t pass the Logic Test. And when such illogical statements are made, it erodes the standing of that leadership in the eyes of the rank & file.
5:51 am on January 19th, 2013 4
Well Kitten…I mean Guitard….The guards on most nights will not say anything to you and just scan your ID…Then you will pop up on a report sent to the BN and they will decide if you should of been there or not. If your there for a VTC or whatever then yea you probably get a pass but on Friday and Saturday nights most of the time the chain of command is waiting at the gate…urging their Soldiers through the gate….”Hurry up…you have 15 seconds…”
5:52 am on January 19th, 2013 5
All I can say is stand outside of a convenience store across from the gate at 2am and yes you will be getting a rude conversations from your peeps and a quick demotion.
6:07 am on January 19th, 2013 6
Don’t worry. This curfew will only last until the juicy bar owners and other ville businesses that live & die by the GI dollar start hurting. Then they will band together and demand that the GIs be allowed to come back out and spend all their money, with a few youngsters getting drunk & stupid. Also when the balloon goes back up for the Second Korean War, I would rather we have politically incorrect troops ready to engage, fight & destroy the enemy than the ones who can quote the “How To Play Nice With Others” Hymnal.
6:12 am on January 19th, 2013 7
Kingkitty wrote:
I have more than a few years working senior staff positions at Bn and Bde level in USFK units . . . and have never heard of any such reporting system.
Apparently you know the inside details of how curfew hour entries to the base are reported to the units and then verified – please provide more information.
6:28 am on January 19th, 2013 8
2ID Doc wrote:
Are they really losing that much money? During the week, how many GIs would otherwise be out partying between 1-5 a.m.? Obviously, people are more inclined to be out later on weekends, but does having to call it quits at 1am really affect the bottom line of the clubs that much? And remember – civilians, contractors, and family members are only “encouraged” to abide by the curfew, which means they don’t have to.
Full disclosure: Back in the day, on many a weekend morning, I greeted the sun coming up while standing at the top of Hooker Hill with a glass of kettle juice in my hand. But I haven’t been out partying till the wee hours in quite a while – so I don’t know anymore what it’s like at 1am in Itaewon.
7:18 am on January 19th, 2013 9
Itaewon ain’t what it was. And what exactly is meant by this: “an attempt to decrease incidents between servicemembers and Korean civilians by keeping servicemembers off the streets at night”?
Who exactly was doing the IEDs in Iraq? The Grenadier Guards? Part of “mission readiness” is not turning the locals into unlawful combatants.
And while many of us did stupid things under the influence of alcohol during our time in uniform, the recent increases in violent off-base crimes indicates something darker. Perhaps the fallout for allowing political appointees to mis-run the NCO school? Maybe the curfew is more of an indictment of the quality of tactical peacetime leadership than a problem with the general’s staff…
8:26 am on January 19th, 2013 10
Recruiter: Oh yes, you can go out at night and pick up some p** t***, Korean women love American men.
High School student: Really?
Recruiter: Oh yes
High School student: Wow, I won’t know what to do.
Recruiter: You will have so much fun in S. Korea and it’s so easy because American tax payers don’t know or care about spending big tax bucks just to employ you so you can chase women and on top of it all you probably won’t have to shoot your gun at a N. Korean once.
High School student: Huh
Recruiter: Certainly not, the Korean peninsula is like a hillbilly feud that keeps on passing Go and Collecting for big businesses.
High School student: I reckon some p** t*** is a waiting, sign me up.
6 months later…
High School graduate: What the F***, why am I treated like a high school student?
Recruiter: Who are you?
High School student: You know
Recruiter: Oh yeah, didn’t I tell you that Koreans hate Americans and you have a curfew
9:57 am on January 19th, 2013 11
Guitard so your working on staff positions and you never heard of the list of curfew violations? Not certain what staff your working on but how do you think people are caught violating curfew? Its all connected to the BIDS. Haven t you been on any trips with your unit that has you coming or leaving before curfew? Don’t you know about the memo that has to be approved by the BC to keep the violator list going up to the General.
You never heard of the officers and senior NCOs who been caught? Even on this site you can read about curfew violations.
Have you even been to Korea?
10:35 am on January 19th, 2013 12
Kingkitty wrote:
You said in your original post, “but on Friday and Saturday nights most of the time the chain of command is waiting at the gate.”
Please explain why the chain of command is out waiting at the gate most Friday and Saturday nights at 0100 (freezing their nuts off this time of year) when violators are going to show up in a report generated through BIDS anyway?
It only matters if you’re coming or leaving DURING curfew hours. What happens before curfew doesn’t matter.
4:07 pm on January 19th, 2013 13
10- You have quite an active imagination regarding what recruiters promise prospective recruits. In 2013 no one is asking their recruiter about Korea.
4:36 pm on January 19th, 2013 14
Wow G do we have to explain everything to you? And you work Sr positions? Its the emphasis of the commands to have the courtesy patrol personnel and usually you will find a CSM or two at the gate coaxing in Soldiers so they wont get nabbed for Curfew. We in the business like to call this “Taking Care of Soldiers”. One minute late and you hit the BIDS readout that you seem to have no ideal about.
Its funny though I never seen people who actually work in Korea write things like “I have more than a few years working senior staff positions at Bn and Bde level in USFK units” I do not think your even American…just some Korean trying to join in. I worked for Sr staff at BN, BDE and DIV yet as much as they pump this info out its just amazing that your so oblivious to the reporting system.
Fraud
6:50 pm on January 19th, 2013 15
Kingkitty wrote:
Is this the best you can do?
You can’t intelligently respond to questions, so you resort to elementary schoolyard cutdowns.
7:31 pm on January 19th, 2013 16
I have to agree even the lowliest private can see through the “mission readiness” excuse. It’s as bad as giving an unpopular tasking and adding, “I didn’t want to, the CDR made me do it,” or “the commander says…”
Just come out and be honest, have some integrity (Army values – did the leadership lose their cards and dog tag mini AV cards?).
The curfew was re-instituted in direct response to a couple serious incidents off post. Or, was it just coincidence that the leadership determined we needed a curfew to maintain mission readiness at exactly the same time these incidents occurred. Sure…
The curfew in support of mission readiness rings hollow when there is no accompanying GO #1 and the on post clubs are open later.
At least USFJ apparently has the cojones to admit to its reasons for curfew (however misguided), but I suppose it could be that they do not have a convenient excuse like North Korea right up the road.
It’s about soldier misconduct, have the balls to come out and say it. It’s very embarrassing to watch senior generals and enlisted pander and obstruficate like senators and congress-critters.
12:54 am on January 20th, 2013 17
Thurman is just another in a long line of cowardly entitled turds that have sat in that position. Why should we expect any different of him as he’s obviously made from the fatty leftover fleshy bits of previous USFK commanders. The only one I can remember who didn’t look like a golem assembled from old commanders was Sharp and look what his stance was on the curfew.
Is it wrong to wish for ill deeds to befall someone if they’re the Army’s equivalent of Frankenstein?
Funny thing is that this topic enrages me more than anything else here and I’m not even subject to it.
1:54 am on January 20th, 2013 18
PRICELESS!
He does resemble a mandragora. Maybe he is a Thurmandragora.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X3Orw4DrI3w/Ts_YklV0C6I/AAAAAAAAAr4/CRB0NSKM7No/s640/mandragora.jpg
3:10 am on January 20th, 2013 19
Are you serious G?
7:13 am on January 20th, 2013 20
Curfew allows for travel and entry to post for official reasons. Going to work early wearing your uniform to attend a VTC, a CSM/1SG meeting at 5 AM, or other valid reasons are authorized. D-BIDS will alert when people scan in from 0100-0500. Soldiers are also authorized to stay out during curfew hours if on an approved pass or Leave with a valid DA 31 (Army personnel). That is one reason why some Soldiers vie for an approved pass over a normal weekend to go somewhere in Korea to otherwise whoop it up in an approved fashion.
The DA 31 is for intents and purposes accomplishing the same thing as GI Korea’s proposed Warrior Pass system. It is prolly more complicated to request, have staff lose your paperwork a few times, re-request, wait for approval, tehn get DA 31 written up than it would be to pull a card out of the box and issue ot to Soldier.
While on topic, let’s drift into the BUDDY SYSTEM thing that is a requirment (officially by policy in some units or simply HIGHLY RECOMMENDED elsewhere). Is it REALLY practical that another Soldier will go EXACTLY to teh same places YOU go to? Is it possible for an off-post person to wait for spouse to make buddy team? if SoldierA takes Soldier B as buddy to get home, how is Soldier B going to get back to camp alone without violating Buddy system? If off-post Soldier has spouse working or visiting a friend or doing something else away from home, how is Soldier going to go to the store from his Apartment to get food?
The buddy system had a neat intent, but that is not practical ALL the time. Intent was to ensure Joes and Janes going out to drink alcohol had responsible people next to them to help avoid trouble or help escape it. If Army applies the blind hard black n white rule, then EVERYONE being alone at some point are guilty. Even those with buddy who had to step outside teh resturant to go up the stairs in the next stairwell to use the bathroom. Even those who are running for their health by themselves.
When I got off leave when curfew got re-instated, I rode my bike to camp, entered camp to use the shoppette, and as I was walking out the gate, an MP checked my ID card and informed me I was violating the mandatory buddy policy. I informed him I was a big boy capable of handling trouble and was enroute to my way home, which was 1/4 mile away and would run away from trouble anyway. MP grinned and arrested my 1SG hiding behind the tree.
7:38 am on January 20th, 2013 21
Op-Post clubs are NOT making an additional killing of this noise. In Barracks with NO dayrooms, Soldiers like to gang up in hallways to make a loud party, since there is nowehere near place to go near their residence to whoop it up. most Soldeirs do not go to the VILLE, but go for the popular Seoul locations if they are in Area I, II, or III. The curfew never stops the Soldiers in my units from going out, it just makes them cut sling from partying in their favorite clubs and get into a motel room earlier than they would like. Partying 80% hard to them is better than partying 0% hard.
USFK could always go back to the days that required Soldiers to be INSIDE the camp before midnight and NOT in a motel room or out in town if they have a DA 31.
Soldiers would really cry a river if that happened again. In those days, only 10% of the unit was allowed an overnight pass that was snatched up by the numerous married Soldiers who had un-accompanied wife stashed in a paid hooch off post. (out of pocket expense, but some hooches were pretty cheap back then)
Soldiers nowadays can at least get rent money for un-accompanied wife as opposed to back in the day when it cost an arm and a leg to have the wife over for the year.
7:49 am on January 20th, 2013 22
2ID Doc.
On face value, your observation would have much merit, but in reality, many of the Ville businesses are failing on their own even when the curfew was lifted. The club owner mafia carries a lot LESS clout than it did decades ago.
Soldiers in Area I, II, and III simply prefer to party like a rock star in Seoul in the most popular party hangouts – Itaewon, Heongdae, etc. The days of Soldiers whoopin’ it up in the ville like newly un-restrained zoo animals are pretty much deminished. Some of the clubs are carrying operating losses in hopes of future improvement of their situation.
Take a look at Camp Stanley’s Ville and CRC’s ville. There is practically NOTHING to teh Ville anymore. Stanley has TWO places making any profit from numbers of Soldiers. The other joints barely break even or are operating at loss. I don’t know how some of the clubs even pay utilities as some of teh Stanley ville clubs rarely have more than a few Soldiers at a time in them.
Nowadays, only Soldiers bored out of their minds (happens a lot) wanting to drink a few (happens a lot) in the company of friends and differing levels of attractiveness of the hostess crowd go to the Ville to hangout and drink. It is convenient to many of this crowd as it is walking distance (at least on Stanley and CRC) to the gate and to the clubs. Still, not so many do this, not nearly in the numbers or percentages of decades ago.
The clubs have lost a lot of say in this stuff and are dying down to much smaller numbers.
7:51 pm on January 20th, 2013 23
William wrote:
In the last five years or so, downtown Uijongbu has changed dramatically – it’s been given a complete makeover with a very modern urban re-design. It’s not Hongdae or Apgujung – but young GIs can go there – and as long as they don’t act like idiots – can party with young Koreans in a non-juicy bar atmosphere and really enjoy themselves.
11:55 pm on January 20th, 2013 24
[quote]That is why I have always advocated for the Warrior Pass policy from a decade ago because USFK senior leaders always turn back to reinstating a curfew because it is the easy response to make it look like something is being done. With my Warrior Pass idea USFK servicemembers who are not causing trouble would not be effected by the curfew.[/quote]
Except that system currently exists, if any BN wish’s to enforce it. The curfew policy specifically authorizes Brigade level commanders the ability to create a pass exemption system that would be enforced at the Battalion and Company level. Unit commanders have stayed away from that cause they won’t want to be the ones responsible when something eventually goes wrong.
Thankfully if a soldier is on leave status then their exempt from curfew. Wonder how many soldiers have put in for a couple days “in country” leave…
1:58 am on January 21st, 2013 25
The Stanley Ville is the last of the traditional ville….smaller yes but still a whole lot of fun to get drunk in
3:29 am on January 21st, 2013 26
I don’t know juicy bars don’t seem to be doing any business before or after curfew. I did go to a few juicy bars to see if any customers where there…In the 5 bars I visited I saw 3 customers in total.
11:30 pm on January 27th, 2013 27
The internet is killing the ville… What I hope tey don’t bring back if the .15 BAC check. I wish I had a quarter for everytime I got a call from the MP who had o ne of my Soldiers at the TMC to authorize a BAC test. I think that was 2ID policy letter 8 that said that you could not have a BAC over .15. Now that was too much.
12:14 am on January 28th, 2013 28
27. Please explain.