ROK Drop Open Thread – February 10, 2013

Tags: Open Threads

• guitard
  5:22 am on February 10th, 2013 1

  If you have USAA auto insurance and get into an accident in Korea and need assistance from the company that represents USAA locally (McLarens Korea Ltd.) – don’t get into an accident outside of Mon-Fri from 0900-1800 hours – otherwise you’ll get a recording when you call that company. So while you’re standing around freezing your balls off trying to figure out what to do – the other driver’s insurance rep shows up in no time and naturally, that other company’s rep ain’t lookin’ to do you any favors. According to a few Korean friends I asked – it’s the norm for an insurance rep to be Johnny of the spot 24/7. Apparently, however, USAA never looked into that when it decided on who it would choose to represent it locally.

• Smokes
  5:44 am on February 10th, 2013 2

  Wonderful, another reason to get rid of my car.

• My 2 Cents
  7:22 am on February 10th, 2013 3

  Tom has taken much of the fun and most of the intelligence out of ROK Drop compared to what it used to be. I wrote these comments on another post but I will reuse them here for those who missed them. I would hope others feel the same and I would hope GI Korea would have a comment on the matter.

  I should add that a successful blog is frequently the sum of the blogger and the commenters. ROK Drop seems to be encouraging Tom and his enablers while running off the likes of Kushibo, Sonagi, Someotherguy, Retired GI and others who used to write long and interesting comments with great frequency.

  If I am out of line on this matter, I will drop it.

  -

  If GI Korea wanted to return to being a top-notch blog he would just delete any comment by Tom/socks that wasn’t funny or didn’t have a semi-valid point.

  I have to scroll through pages of his idiotic comments and equally idiotic responses to find increasingly rare gems of humor or information. When I look back at old comments from past years, there are some brilliant observations and entertaining debates. Now it is mostly idiots responding to Tom while intelligent and thoughtful commenters write less and less. Unlike Tom’s purposeful stupidity, intelligent comments mostly get no response, discouraging any time being put into a thoughtful comment.

  ROK Drop has lost its way because everyone has encouraged Tom to push it off its tracks and GI Korea has allowed it.

  I abhor censorship but Tom long ago passed the point where he is yelling fire in a crowded theater.

  -

  Interesting topics with quality comments and thoughtful debate vanish from the sidebar as they are overrun by Tom’s idiocy and the idiots that respond to him with equal childishness or, worse, with troll-feeding anger.

  ROK Drop used to be THE place to go to get useful information and assistance, the real story behind the hype and a finger on the pulse of the military and civilian communites within USFK. The idiots that showed up were not professional trolls and they got shut down in amusing ways.

  For whatever personal or professional reason, Tom set out to destroy ROK Drop and has basically succeeded. The comment section has lost much of its status as a place to go for honest, if sometimes unfavorable, insight into USFK and Korea. It has been replaced with variations of “Tom is in Canada and is stupid”. Count the ratio of Tom-related to topic-related comments on current and similar past posts if you disagree.

  ROK Drop is no longer GI Korea’s Korea/military blog. It is The Tom Show with little factual information, no real humor and no actual point. It is GI’s blog and he may do as he wishes but if his readers have any sway over his opinion, I second the motion and I encourage other to voice their thoughts.

• Flunky Brewster
  7:50 am on February 10th, 2013 4

• Glans
  7:59 am on February 10th, 2013 5

  Kushibo, Sonagi, Someotherguy, Retired G, have y’all been run off? That’s what My 2 Cents says in comment 3.

• guitard
  8:06 am on February 10th, 2013 6

  My 2 Cents wrote:

  ROK Drop seems to be encouraging Tom

  Tom gets his greatest encouragement and joy from whiny posts about how he’s being disruptive.

  There’s a really simply solution to your dilemma: skip over his posts or go read any of the millions of other blogs out there in the blogosphere.

  Whatever you decide to do – please stop whining about Tom.

• guitard
  8:09 am on February 10th, 2013 7

  No doubt about it – Retired GI got so intimidated by Tom that he swore off ever posting in ROKDrop again. Mark my word – he’ll never post here again.

• Glans
  8:29 am on February 10th, 2013 8

  Three North Korean doctors have been murdered in Nigeria. A strange Islamist sect “Boko Haram” is suspected, but the big story by Jon Gambrell and Kim Hyung-jin doesn’t substantiate that.

• Leon LaPorte
  5:29 pm on February 10th, 2013 9

  3. Oddly, I was able to scroll through the tripe and read your comments in the original thread. It required superhuman effort and a very steady hand. I count myself pleased.

  But I understand your point. If someone posts a short, non-thoughtful (or even troll-like) comment in a thread; that thread is totally destroyed and becomes all but unreadable. The thoughtful, long, well written posts evaporate!

• BBBBBBBBBBell
  5:53 pm on February 10th, 2013 10

  Why do we forget what our mother’s taught us when we were 4? If people would just ignore Tom he will go away. Also, the trolling exists on all sides of opinions stated on ROKDROP. It’s not just Tom. He just seems to get the most attention. Is it really that hard for everyone to simply scroll over whatever Tom writes and continue to have smart conversation? Are we all so easily offended that we have to play into his little games?

• LG DACOM Stinks, Royally
  6:17 pm on February 10th, 2013 11

  I don’t miss Retired GI.

• MTB Rider
  6:37 pm on February 10th, 2013 12

  I miss ChickenHead the most… His poetry, his humor, and his comments were the highlight of my day.

• Flunky Brewster
  6:37 pm on February 10th, 2013 13

  If th poster known as “Tom” was actually making valid points then it would be understandable why thge nonsense is permitted, but “Tom” does destroy threads and makes it so that any intelligent discussion is ignored. Again, it’s up to the host what kind of show will be presented- “Jerry Springer” or a serious discussion.
  I’ll tell you this- There’s no other board where you can discuss military issues with other veterans, about Korea, like this one and if this site is allowed to be destroyed in the pursuit of clicks then that’s a real shame. The perspective of military veterans is ignored or given no voice anywhere else on the web in the Korean media or blogosphere, and it is a perspective that is badly needed for many topics. Thaqt includes big topics like the Korean elections and everyday military life topics including those 6 young soldiers who were “busted” on the subway and so many others to come. Maintain the credibility because it does matter.

• Sonagi
  6:48 pm on February 10th, 2013 14

  Thanks for the compliment, My 2 Cents. Like Leon and many other ROK Drop regulars, I scroll past posts by or about Tom. “ignore to extinguish” as we educators call an effective practice in classroom discipline.

• guitard
  7:14 pm on February 10th, 2013 15

  Flunky Brewster wrote:

  “Tom” does destroy threads and makes it so that any intelligent discussion is ignored.

  More encouragement for our boy “Tom.” Thanks!

• LG DACOM Stinks, Royally
  7:25 pm on February 10th, 2013 16

  I’d rather read a post by Tom than I would one of Retired GI’s racist, sexist, and bitter posts.

• tbonetylr
  7:46 pm on February 10th, 2013 17

  The M channel in S. Korea is covering the Grammy Awards, it’s like something is missing without Psy. I’m so sad he didn’t get nominated for anything. Does anyone know how many twitter fans/friends follow him?

• tbonetylr
  8:02 pm on February 10th, 2013 18

  There’s a whole lotta country this year, I hear that’s the trend. If so what will Koreans do, I don’t think many like country so now what will they copy?

• MT C
  10:35 pm on February 10th, 2013 19

  Not really sure you’d be interested in this, so I’ll just leave it as a note.

  I am currently visiting my son who is working here in Kuwait. I’ve been here nearly a year now.

  The other day, my daughter-in-law came in and announced that five North Korean engineers (at least they said they were from N.Korea and that they were engineers) had asked her about renting the entire villa so that their group could all be in the same building.

  A normal villa here is usually three to five stories. Each of which can accommodate a family of five comfortably, with three to four bedrooms, plus a small maid’s room. She also thought there were maybe another eight or ten in another van.

  A day or so later, she pointed out the ones she had seen as they were walking through a parking lot of a small mall here. I again saw the man she pointed out as being the ‘English speaker/talker’ in a local grocery. These are the first Koreans I have seen in country, and my son has said that also.

  My daughter-in-law is Filipino, by the way, so they had no problem talking with her, until they found out she was married to an American. At which point, he said he would have a problem with living in the same neighborhood with Americans and promptly left.

  They have apparently found a place here, but I don’t see how they could have found a neighborhood here with an American in it, as it is a popular place with the Americans.

  This is more or less third hand and I have no pictures of them or anything else that would ‘prove’ what I’ve stated above. And I have no idea what they would be doing here. But I can state that there are almost as many nations represented here as there are nations on the face of the earth, including those not on friendly terms with democratic nations. Which is in keeping with Kuwait’s obvious desire to get the most technical knowledge/services for the money and sell oil to anyone desiring to purchase. Most expats are working in oil, services, or military and I assume that these engineers are here for their expertise in either oil production or infrastructure, with infrastructure being the most probable.

• Baek In-je
  10:36 pm on February 10th, 2013 20

  Whenever Lunar New Year or Chusok comes around, I like to walk around the city. I invariably think that this is exactly how many people should be living in Seoul. Only in Korea would literally half the population live in and around the capital city.

  I still got bumped on the sidewalk, though.

• Flunky Brewster
  2:16 am on February 11th, 2013 21

  15- Don’t kill the messenger. Besides, I didn’t blame it on “Tom” but rather someone somewhere who has decided that turmoil = clicks.

• guitard
  3:14 am on February 11th, 2013 22

  Flunky Brewster wrote:

  I didn’t blame it on “Tom” but rather someone somewhere who has decided that turmoil = clicks.

  Really? Then why do you suppose “someone somewhere who has decided that turmoil = clicks” has banned Tom in the past on multiple occasions?

• Leon LaPorte
  3:46 am on February 11th, 2013 23

  21. I don’t subscribe to that theory. Hell, even I’m not that cynical (in this case).

• My 2 Cents
  4:24 am on February 11th, 2013 24

  Guitard, without equally evil registration schemes, it is almost impossible to “ban” someone. It is possible to simply delete Tom’s comment of the “fat broke American GIs always rape Korean virgins and SOFA encourages it” variety. It wouldn’t hurt to also delete the following twelve wussy comments that are variations of “Did not!”

  I can read Dave’s ESL Cafe if I want to scroll through pages of childish nonsense and intentional trolling that is based on the obviously absurd rather than provoking a debate over different points of view.

  ROK Drop was above that at one time. The trolling was, at the least, amusing and frequently revealed a valid idea while exposing weakness in the other argument.

  Though Tom, and responses to Tom, make up around half of the comments on many intersting posts, I think it’s honest to say I have never found anything humorous nor informative in any of them.

  ROK Drop once performed a very necessary service in addition to being a real pleasure to read. While the quality of posts have not changed, the comment section has been diluted with garbage. It is unfortunate to see ROK heads losing their reputation as connected and insightful military members and civilian associates only to be replaced with a reputation more suitable for the cesspool that is Dave’s ESL Cafe.

  A blog is made of the blogger and the commenters and they reflect upon each other. Flowers attract bees. We know what attracts flies. Tom has successfully created the situation where too many comments are all childish buzz and no intellectual sting.

  Some here seem not to recognize it, many are appathetic to it and a few have excused or defended it. I hoped that by pointing it out in a logical fashion the problem and solution would be recognized and there would be broad support for those wishing to return to more interesting, informative and stimulating conversation.

  I still can’t believe I am wrong in this thinking but the lack of positive response, the defense of Tom and the silence of GI Korea is starting to convince me that I must be.

• guitard
  6:24 am on February 11th, 2013 25

  My 2 Cents wrote:

  I still can’t believe I am wrong

  Imagine that . . .

  Perhaps you should adopt this as your mantra: 원숭이도 나무에서 떨어질 때가 있다.

• GI Korea
  6:50 am on February 11th, 2013 26

  In regards to Tom, Kushibo already outed him before as a Chinese agitprop who is based out of Toronto. The more you complain about him the more money he makes from his handlers. I have attempted to ban him in the past and he will use proxies to keep posting comments.

  I have deleted his comments before and he will just repost them. The ROK Drop is not my full time job. I do not have time to monitor the comment section 24/7 to look for Tom comments. So I have chosen to ignore him and I wish others would do so as well.

• tbonetylr
  7:12 am on February 11th, 2013 27

  S. Korean racism in soccer, 18 years behind the times. The article gives examples of 3 players which I included but read the rest if you so desire…
  http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2966897&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist2
  “Leagues in Europe also previously had many restrictions on scouting foreign players. However, changes made 18 years ago changed the structure of European football and became the trigger of its development…

  1)In April, Adilson dos Santos or “Adi,” FC Seoul’s Brazilian defender, became the victim of racially abusive words written online by a user who posed as a Le Coq Sportif designer, the brand in charge of creating advertisements featuring Adi.

  The alleged designer wrote, “Adi is still a used coal briquette even if he uses make-up.”

  2)Lee Chung-sung’s experience in Korea is another example of discrimination in the country’s football league.

  Currently England Premier League Southampton’s striker and a member of Japan International, Lee is a Korean-Japanese who played for Korea until 2004. In an MBC special interview in 2010, the 28-year-old said he felt discriminated against by his Korean teammates after being called “half-jjeokbbari,” an epithet against Zainichi Koreans.

  Lee said, “It disrupted my mind to even think that my career could possibly end in one or two years. I suddenly felt a sense of emptiness of the way I view the world…

  3)There is a player who once tried to become a naturalized Korean: Enio Oliveira Junior, or Eninho, of Jeonbuk FC. Last year, he was about to become a member of the Korean International team by the proposal of the KFA and Choi Kang-hee, the current manager of the national squad.

  However, the Korea Sports Council strongly rejected the suggestion, calling Eninho ineligible for the spot. The council’s official statement said that a player who lacks knowledge about Korean culture and can’t blend into a team of Koreans should not represent the country.

  While the council approved the naturalization of players in other sports like basketball and volleyball, it did not allow any in football…

• Bobby Ray
  10:34 am on February 11th, 2013 28

  That police fellow in California who has been shooting other police made the news way back in 2002 when he returned $8000 lost by a Korean church. Aint it amazing how darn near everything gots itself a Korean connection if you look hard enough?

  http://enidnews.com/localnews/x964898713/ENE-Archives-Vance-students-turn-in-lost-church-money#cb=fdd0205ed56568&origin=http%3A%2F%2Fenidnews.com%2Ff34619491750dc8&domain=enidnews.com&relation=parent&error=not_authorized

  Im not sure I agree with them LA police that the best way to catch this fellow is to shoot up every blue pickup till they get him. I reckon thats a good way to make sure he dont talk his side of the story though.

• Sophia Trucker
  9:38 pm on February 11th, 2013 29

  26- If he is somehow banned there are a million more pimple-faced, pea-brained comrades in PC rooms ready to take his place.

• Leon LaPorte
  12:32 am on February 12th, 2013 30

  Let it go man, cause like, it’s gone. Calling him who cannot be named on his traitorous avoidance of his military service responsibility usually prevents him from further posting in a thread.

• Leon LaPorte
  12:39 am on February 12th, 2013 31

  …or at least slows him down. But the banning discussions truly feeds him who cannot be named more than anything else. He can just sit back and enjoy…

• Leon LaPorte
  2:34 am on February 12th, 2013 32

  31. And I know what some of you are thinking. “If we speak about he of whom we do not speak, have we not spoken of him about which we do not talk?”

  Well, I’ll tell you: Do not speak of he of about which we talk of not speaking… about! That will be the end of it!

• tbonetylr
  6:17 am on February 12th, 2013 33

  IOC drops wrestling from 2020 Olympics(but not final decision), the sport in its place is mostly seen in only european countries. Karate, baseball, etc…has been out but at least Tae-Kwon-Do is still in.
  http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2013/02/12/ioc-drops-wrestling-2020-olympics/1912179/
  LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — IOC leaders dropped wrestling from the Olympic program on Tuesday, a surprise decision that removes one of the oldest Olympic sports from the 2020 Games.

  The IOC executive board decided to retain modern pentathlon — the event considered most at risk — and remove wrestling instead from its list of 25 “core sports.”

  Wrestling, which combines freestyle and Greco-Roman events, goes back to the inaugural modern Olympics in Athens in 1896.

  Wrestling will now join seven other sports in applying for inclusion in 2020. The others are a combined bid from baseball and softball, karate, squash, roller sports, sport climbing, wakeboarding and wushu. They will be vying for a single opening in 2020.”

• Baek Jae In
  7:26 pm on February 12th, 2013 34

  And in another news,

  1) Korean police have put out a warrant for the US airforce man accused by his Australian ex-girlfriend who says she was raped in a car. She filed her complaint with the US military, five months ago. But after getting no actions nor any attempt by the USFK to even investigate the charges, she filed her complaint with the Yongsan police.

  2) USFK soldier arrested by Korean police yesterday, after he drank and drove, and hitting a pedestrian.

  3) Six USFK soldiers accused of molesting a Korean woman. The USFK defenders here are making excuses for these guys, and trying to shift blame on the woman and the Koreans in general, but let’s face it, who’s fooling who?

  4) USFJ soldier in Okinawa, caught drunk driving, as USFJ soldiers in Okinawa are not having much better time than the USFK soldiers. Okinawa is having similar problems with USFK crime problems as Korea.

• Leon LaPorte
  7:59 pm on February 12th, 2013 35

  34.3 – I defend them if they are proven innocent, and slam them if they are proven guilty. There is the presumption of innocence, is there not? There have been incidents in the past where things turned out to be quite different than what was initially supported.

• guitard
  8:06 pm on February 12th, 2013 36

  Baek Jae In wrote:

  And in another news

  Wait a minute . . . are you saying that amongst a group of approximately 80,000 military personnel – a handful of them committed some crimes??

  I found that to be utterly shocking. SHOCKING I say~~~!!!

• Leon LaPorte
  8:11 pm on February 12th, 2013 37

  36. STOP THE MADNESS. WITHDRAW OURZ TROOPZ FROMME DES COUNTRIES!!!

• Bobby Ray
  9:44 pm on February 12th, 2013 38

  1. When them ex wives and ex girlfriends start hollering rape I get suspicious maybe there is more going on. So called raping a wife or girlfriend that you done been doing it with for years ain’t the same thing as dragging some schoolgirl into the bushes next to the school bus stop but them wives and girlfriends that holler rape sure want it treated that way.

  2. Driving drunk ain’t got no kind of excuse.

  3. Them boys didn’t molest no woman. They is scoundrels and knuckleheads causing no end of annoyance to those around them but them molest accusations are just because there ain’t no real crime in being annoying with an official punishment. If this was Texas them Koreans would just shoot these clowns. In Korea they just got to figure out a way to punish them. Causing them trouble like this is about the only way. USFK makes a lot of show with them curfews and such but it don’t really control the clowns. If I was one of them clowns I’d get on the subway and be far from any of them curfews or patrols where I could clown about as much as I wanted as long as I could run faster than a Korean mob. Looking at this deal I’d have about a 50 percent chance of getting away. When I was in Seoul I saw some of them clowns acting out in them rap clothes. I saw some of them ragged looking teachers clowning about too. They was both bad in different ways.

  4. Take a gander back at number 2

• Kangaji
  6:57 am on February 13th, 2013 39

  GI Korea – I’d appoint moderators to clean up the comments section then after posting rules and standards for comments. Why haven’t you appointed some extra moderator level members?

• Kangaji
  7:06 am on February 13th, 2013 40

  Retired GI? He’s on a tropical island with some hot women ranting about the government planning to steal our guns. Heh heh. People will think I’m making this up.

• Glans
  1:00 pm on February 13th, 2013 41

  Are you concerned about your parents’ mental state? Do they need to move to a retirement community?

• JoeC
  5:22 pm on February 13th, 2013 42

  Christopher Lockwood, of The Economist, assesses the President’s State of the Union speech and the Rubio response.

• Leon LaPorte
  6:49 pm on February 13th, 2013 43

  39. Yes, hopefully the new rules would eliminate all the comments each and every one of us find annoying.

• Glans
  7:01 pm on February 13th, 2013 44

  The Distinguished Warfare Medal is a new decoration for personnel who make extraordinary contributions to military operations without being physically present. They can do things that don’t endanger themselves, like controlling drones or launching cyber attacks. This new award will be higher than the Bronze Star. Read all about it at HuffingtonPost.

• chefantwon
  7:24 pm on February 13th, 2013 45

  #44 – that means Obama will get one for “being present” at the White House for 8 years…..Not that he actually did anything good for the country. Except $4.00 gas, 8% unemployment, more people on food stamps and welfare, and of course…the Obama Phones!

• Denny
  11:03 pm on February 13th, 2013 46

  Kushibo no longer posting is supposed to be a BAD thing?

• Baek In-je
  12:46 am on February 14th, 2013 47

  Some puppet is leaving comments at Baek Jae In? That’s too funny.

• Baek In-je
  12:51 am on February 14th, 2013 48

  GI Korea
  6:50 am on February 11th, 2013 26 “In regards to Tom, Kushibo already outed him before as a Chinese agitprop who is based out of Toronto. The more you complain about him the more money he makes from his handlers.”

  -what is an agitprop?
  -how does making stupid comments make money?

• guitard
  12:59 am on February 14th, 2013 49

  Baek In-je wrote:

  how does making stupid comments make money?

  I don’t know. But if you ever figure it out – your life will be filled with prosperity.

• Baek In-je
  1:09 am on February 14th, 2013 50

  Ahhhhhhh! Agitation propaganda! Agiprop. I didn’t know there was a word for that. Koreans are famous for this. But being very poor (albeit prolific) liars, they are not too good at it. Even though they are the highest educated (if you can call everyone-graduates-in four-years-of- study-with-little-work an education) people who cannot have an independent though in the world, it doesnt take much to convince the Korean population of something through agitation propaganda. Some examples?

  1. Mad Cow disease affects Koreans more than white people.
  2. In the 2002 tank acident, the combined width of the tanks passing each other exceeded that of the road.
  3. In the late 1800, Korean agiprops spread the rumor that foreigners were LIQUIFYING KOREAN BABIES to make the solution needed to make photographs.

  There are thousands of examples of this in Korea. Such a pity. Didn’t know H8orade came in soju flavor.

• Baek In-je
  1:11 am on February 14th, 2013 51

  @ Guitard,
  Have I made stupid comments? Pray tell which ones? All my comments are true and on the money.

• GI Korea
  5:04 am on February 14th, 2013 52

  @39- That has been done before and prior moderators gave up on dealing with the BS involved. Are you saying you are willing to volunteer?

  @48- Tom is likely part of the 50 Cent Army:

  http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/10/china%E2%80%99s-paid-trolls-meet-50-cent-party

  My theory is that they have Chinese students in Toronto doing this for pocket money.

• Flunky Brewster
  5:25 am on February 14th, 2013 53

  Need a date for Valentine’s Day? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDWJn3IwiaM

• Flunky Brewster
  5:26 am on February 14th, 2013 54

• Ole Tanker
  10:58 am on February 14th, 2013 55

  Ever wonder why none of the top race car drivers in the world are Korea?

• kangaji
  1:20 pm on February 14th, 2013 56

  #39: Exactly, yes. I am willing to volunteer and deal with the BS involved.

• kangaji
  1:23 pm on February 14th, 2013 57

  Specifically I’m talking about policing up comments after they are made rather than holding everything in a moderation limbo which would kill all discussion.

• Leon LaPorte
  4:00 pm on February 14th, 2013 58

  One man’s BS is another’s _________.

  Careful what you wish for. Slippery slope and all that.

• JoeC
  4:28 pm on February 14th, 2013 59

  #44

  It’s the headline on FoxNews now.

  Maybe it will be another avenue for women to earn bonus points towards promotion without all the macho physical stuff.

• kushibo
  5:42 pm on February 14th, 2013 60

  Two-thirds of Americans live in 100-mile border zone where DHS doesn’t have to follow the Fourth Amendment (link).

• kushibo
  5:47 pm on February 14th, 2013 61

  Ole Tanker (#55):
  

  Ever wonder why none of the top race car drivers in the world are Korea?

  I’m not sure what your point is. It doesn’t look like the helicopter pilot (the one who crashed) is a Korean. And the venue looks to be out in the desert somewhere, not Korea.

• GI Korea
  6:40 pm on February 14th, 2013 62

  @56- I upped your user privileges to where you can now moderate comments. Lets see how it goes. Thanks for volunteering.

• Ole Tanker.
  8:27 pm on February 14th, 2013 63

  #61 After driving in Korea many years, I noticed how good, fast drivers Koreans are, also they are proud of their skills.

  Years ago, I wondered why such good drivers weren’t world class.

  The helicopter video with a Korean driver in the car AND winning just reminded me of my old sentiments.

  Gee!!! It’s just an observation:)

• kushibo
  9:17 pm on February 14th, 2013 64

  Ole Tanker (#63), my humblest apologies. The YouTube header (“Helicopter Crash Caught on Camera”) right below your comment (“Ever wonder why none of the top race car drivers in the world are Korea?”) led me to assume you were taking a sarcastic jab at Korean drivers.

  I shouldn’t have assumed that.

  There are some really crappy drivers, a daily concern for any driver or pedestrian in Korea (Korean and non-Korean alike), but most are actually all right. It’s just that the lawbreakers and the crosswalk-nudgers, etc., are so egregious that they make the whole lot look bad.

  I think the answer to your question may be that, like so many other things, the resources needed to foster a world-class champion have been around only recently. Where would a potential driver go to train? The best Korean tracks are in California.

• Baek In-je
  11:07 pm on February 14th, 2013 65

  C’mon Kushibo,
  You couldn’t type “but most are actually all right” with a straight face, right? Koreans all suck at driving. They drive like it is an SLR camera: point and shoot. Driving takes skill and patience; two things Koreans lack in abundance. Your kimcheerleading is a little over the top today. Nice try. Worst drivers in the world, hands down.
  BTW…they used to have Korean car racing on TV here. The drivers couldn’t keep the cars on the track.LOL.

• Bobby Ray
  11:43 pm on February 14th, 2013 66

  Mr. Baek you sure are right about them Korean drivers not being real good but if you think they are the worst in the world you is just showing your lack of worldlyness. I done traveled to a country or two in the last few years and them Koreans is far from the worst. And last year they was all sorts better than they was 20 years ago.

  I don’t reckon I know why you is all down and out on them Koreans. They is real kind and never did me a lick of wrong. They just do things a little different. If you dont cotton to it maybe it’s time to go somewhere else where you can be happy. Good luck to you Mr baek.

• Glans
  4:48 am on February 15th, 2013 67

  kushibo 60, a few little points:

  The map at that link is wrong. Lake Michigan is entirely withing the United States. Chicago is not within 100 miles of the border.

  On civil liberties, Obama is as bad as Bush.

  I hope it’s now obvious to everyone that the American Civil Liberties Union is not a leftist organization.

• Glans
  4:30 am on February 16th, 2013 68

  Same-sex spouse burial approved by VA sec Erik Shinseki. Here’s the big story.

• Smokes
  7:33 am on February 16th, 2013 69

  Korea gets #1 spot on amazing fountain spread on Fox.

  Banpo Bridge Moonlight Rainbow Fountain
  http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2013/02/15/8-amazing-fountains-from-around-world/?intcmp=features

  Heh I don’t think they’re ranked though, just listed. Still #1.

• kushibo
  6:27 pm on February 16th, 2013 70

  Glans wrote:
  

  kushibo 60, a few little points:
  The map at that link is wrong. Lake Michigan is entirely withing the United States. Chicago is not within 100 miles of the border.

  On civil liberties, Obama is as bad as Bush.

  I hope it’s now obvious to everyone that the American Civil Liberties Union is not a leftist organization.

  Glans, you could have made the same point HERE and/or HERE. In fact, you should.

  The ACLU is pro-Bill of Rights. Period.

• kushibo
  6:36 pm on February 16th, 2013 71

  C’mon Kushibo,
  You couldn’t type “but most are actually all right” with a straight face, right? Koreans all suck at driving.

  There’s little point in arguing with someone who insists on painting everyone in some group with the same broad strokes. You see those who do something bad and ascribe that trait to everyone else who did not. Like when some ajŏshi spits on the subway platform and then you go off on how “Koreans all” are boorish and ill-mannered. Or whatever words you use.

  My statement is objective observable fact in myriad different ways. I’ll give an example, a frequently jammed up left turn lane near my home. Most drivers get in the left lane and wait patiently. You can count the eight, ten, twelve cars waiting patiently to make the left turn. Then there’s the taxi driver or some other driver full of himself who decides that he’s going to go to the front of the line and cut in, or wait toward the front of the line in the lane immediately adjacent to the right. It’s illegal, but something anybody could do.

  So does that incident mean the line-cutter is a di¢k, or are “Koreans all” di¢ks? You have good drivers 8-to-1 in that situation, but if you are the type who goes off about “Koreans all” are this or that (as you are wont to do), it is the latter. And then, because you are looking for bad behavior to bitch about and ruin your day, you will always find it.

  You are right, though, that too much driving in Korea involves threading the needle in smallish lanes. The same problem here in Hawaii. Italy, too. If you think Koreans are “the worst drivers in the world,” then you haven’t traveled much. Including Italy.

  As for the patience you say Koreans lack, if they’re putting up with you and all the kvetchpats who don’t speak Korean, I’d say they South Koreans have patience galore with patience to spare.

• kushibo
  6:37 pm on February 16th, 2013 72

  Smokes wrote:
  

  Korea gets #1 spot on amazing fountain spread on Fox.

  It’s nice, but does it really beat Trevi?

• guitard
  7:11 pm on February 16th, 2013 73

  I’ll give an example, a frequently jammed up left turn lane near my home. Most drivers get in the left lane and wait patiently. You can count the eight, ten, twelve cars waiting patiently to make the left turn. Then there’s the taxi driver or some other driver full of himself who decides that he’s going to go to the front of the line and cut in, or wait toward the front of the line in the lane immediately adjacent to the right. It’s illegal, but something anybody could do.

  I think the reason why this stands out so much to American drivers, is that it just doesn’t happen in the US.

  I like to phuck with guys doing this when I can. If I’m at the front of the line of waiting cars and I’m not in a hurry, I will creep forward and cut the off and when I start to make the left turn, I will take as wide of a turn as I possibly can, and if I’m lucky, he’ll ride along side of me and I’ll run him toward the curb or parked cars – and then I’ll stop and essentially pin him against the curb or the back of a row of parked cars. And then the cars that were behind me will usually start making the turn if there is room to get by us on the left, and I will just let them all go by – and the whole time I’ll give the guy I’m phucking with a dirty look.

  I doubt this will give any of these guys who do this much of a reason to think twice about doing it the next chance they get – but I do it anyway.

• Baek In-je
  7:41 pm on February 16th, 2013 74

  Kushibo,
  You are a smart guy, everyone recognizes that. What you are particuarly good at is compartmentalizing a major Korean problem into one very small example, and extrapolating that to refute someone’s point.
  I will prove to you that the majority of Korean drivers are bad drivers. If I can prove this to you, will you admit that they are actually really crappy at driving?
  Take a major intersection in the city…Samgakji sagori. Go there at 6 o’clock. At each red light, the intersection will be blocked with cars running the red light and/or stuck in the middle of the intersection. When those with the green try to go, they can’t, and try to drive around those blocking the “box.” Then, the cars waiting to turn left on the green cannot get passed the second group blocking the box. They try to go around, and then they are also irritated because they couldn’t go so they run the red and block the box. This goes on ad nauseum…no, really…until one gets sick watching that.
  Plus factor into this that KOREA HAS THE HIGHEST DEATH RATE BY CAR ACCIDENT OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, and you have the world’s worst drivers.
  Part of the reason that Koreans are sh!tty drivers is little experience driving, the pervasive lack of following rules and laws, and lack of respect for anyone that they do not have a relationship with.
  (And don’t assume that I cannot speak Korean).

• kushibo
  8:22 pm on February 16th, 2013 75

  Guitard wrote:
  

  I think the reason why this stands out so much to American drivers, is that it just doesn’t happen in the US.

  It does in Hawaii, though nowhere near as often in South Korea. Sadly, I’ve found that Honolulu drivers are sometimes closer to Seoul drivers than Orange County, except that Honolulu has the added benefit of having a pock-marked roadscape so bad that it costs Oahu drivers $549 per year.

  But I would agree in general it is far less, but my point still stands: It’s nowhere close to being a situation where everybody does it.

  Baek In-je wrote:
  

  Plus factor into this that KOREA HAS THE HIGHEST DEATH RATE BY CAR ACCIDENT OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, and you have the world’s worst drivers.

  True, only if you don’t count the 108 countries whose rates are worse.

  Look, I already acknowledged that I can’t stop you from building up a horrorscape in your mind where the worst people in the world are doing godawful things to you and will never change. I would like to advise others, especially newbies, to not get sucked into that.

  As for me, I’m keenly aware of a whole bunch of “problems” in Seoul or Korea, and I’m sometimes tasked with helping to fix them. But doing so requires an objective look, not a rant-infused tirade steeped in bogus proclamations of “worst in the world” and stuff like that.
  

  (And don’t assume that I cannot speak Korean).

  I wasn’t. Had I assumed that, I would have written “and all the other kvetchpats who don’t speak Korean. I lumped you with them because, well, isn’t it obvious? But they have the excuse of not being able to dig more than a centimeter below the surface, relying solely on what is presented in English and/or their imaginations about what people are really saying/thinking when they go, “다니합야해동이 에번 음다 와리우 고타 를키스 는나. 래바 길있 말주 은좋 이신당 난.”

• kushibo
  8:39 pm on February 16th, 2013 76

  Here’s a list of “true” statements that you probably would agree with (there are more, but then they are getting into opinion territory, which is harder to objectively demonstrate).

  True: Driving in Korea is not for the faint-hearted.
  True: A small but significant portion of drivers in Seoul are very reckless and regularly drive in such a way that they would be given repeated traffic citations in the United States, yet Korean police tend not to bother with them.
  True: Reckless motorbike drivers (many of whom have no insurance) are a danger to pedestrians.
  True: Many Korean pedestrians lack a sense of the danger in front of them when they cross traffic.
  True: Many Korean drivers are in too much of a hurry to drive safely.
  True: Many Korean drivers are distracted by their cell phones or even televisions.

  False: Koreans all suck at driving.
  False: Koreans are the worst drivers in the world, hands down.

• Obama's Speech Coach
  8:48 pm on February 16th, 2013 77

  Seoul, for all it’s warts, is still more fun than Chicago, NYC, or LA… Not 100% sure; but probably more fun than Boston or Seattle, too. I think Houston and Dallas just edge it out because of the Korean restaurants and lack of traffic. But I wouldn’t consider driving in Seoul. There are plenty of taxis and buses on the street already. And no place to park!

  Frankly though, this “Baek In-je” character is probably just a guy who got stood up by a hostess and wants to prove how disreputable his parents were…

• guitard
  9:09 pm on February 16th, 2013 78

  kushibo wrote:

  A small but significant portion of drivers in Seoul are very reckless and regularly drive in such a way that they would be given repeated traffic citations in the United States, yet Korean police tend not to bother with them.

  This kind of gets to the crux of the matter.

  Americans obey traffic laws because they are worried about getting caught by the police. Koreans would be the same way if the Korean police operated the same way American police operate. But for whatever reason – Korean police rarely attempt to directly enforce traffic laws. Hence, some people regularly drive through red lights if there doesn’t appear to be any cross-traffic – because they know the likelihood of the police doing anything about it is just about nil.

  Ten years ago, citizens in Korea could videotape people breaking traffic laws and get payed a small amount for each video clip they provided to the police. That was actually fairly successful. But also very unpopular and it wasn’t long before it was stopped.

• Baek In-je
  9:17 pm on February 16th, 2013 79

  I think the real agitprop is Kushibo. He spends an inordinate amount of time negating the negative comments. His comments follow a very distinct pattern: 1. The “so? X problem happens in other countries as well” tactic; 2. Trying to marginalize a problem as only being the fault of a small number of bad drivers; 3. setting negative comment makers aside from the pack as discontents, can’t speak korean (i.e. don’t understand korean culture).
  You are actually very transparent.
  Here is your list changed to the actual realities:

  True: Driving in Korea is not for anyone who is afraid of getting maimed or killed by someone who is either recklass, late, 8282ing, unskilled at driving, not following the rules,or simply doesn’t care enough about about other souls to drive like an adult.

  True: A large and significant portion of drivers in Seoul are very reckless and regularly drive in such a way that they would be given repeated traffic citations in the United States and have their licenses taken away and throw it jail, yet Korean police do not bother with them because they don’t care about public safety and/or just don’t want the added work.

  True: Reckless motorbike drivers (many of whom have no insurance) are a danger to everyone.
  True: Many Korean pedestrians lack a sense of the danger and lack common sense in front of them when they cross traffic, often not looking where they are walking.
  True: Many Korean drivers are in too much of a hurry to drive safely.
  True: Many Korean drivers are distracted by their cell phones or even televisions.

  False: The MAJORITY of Koreans suck at driving.
  TRUE: Koreans are the worst drivers in the world, hands down.

  Who has the statistic showing the death rate by car accident in Korea is the highest in the world? I know that I have seen it and others on the site have too. Stop lying, Kushibo. You are far too intelligent to lie; I am sure that you can distort the truth better than you can lie.

• guitard
  9:45 pm on February 16th, 2013 80

  Baek In-je wrote:

  A large and significant portion of drivers in Seoul are very reckless . . . yet Korean police do not bother with them because they don’t care about public safety and/or just don’t want the added work.

  If the citizens of Seoul really wanted the police to do something about it – they would say so.

  When is the last time you heard a Korean complain about traffic law enforcement?

• kangaji
  12:20 am on February 17th, 2013 81

  Driving in Seoul scared the bajesus out of me last August.

• kushibo
  12:29 am on February 17th, 2013 82

  The three countries were I’ve driven more than 2000 miles are South Korea, the United States – to include Hawaii and the southwestern United States – and Italy.

  In South Korea, I get in my car and I assume that every other person on the road is a blooming idiot. That’s how I put myself in the mood for defensive driving. The vast majority of the people I encounter on a given drive don’t do anything idiotic, but then when somebody does, I’m completely ready for it. That attitude, plus my tendency to swear at drivers who do something stupid so that I can get it out of my system, has kept me sane and safe on Seoul roads thus far. Knock on wood.

  In Italy, I recognized that Italians as a whole were pretty much driving like South Koreans, only slightly more impatiently and slightly more recklessly. I got behind the wheel of that Opel and I imagined myself driving around South Korea. I imagined Italian drivers as acting like South Korean drivers, and I was fine. My parents, however, were quite freaked out. I should also note that I didn’t have the stomach actually do much driving in Rome itself. The craziness of driving in the Italian countryside was pretty much all I could handle.

  In Hawaii, I find myself swearing at other drivers a lot. There is a great impatience here combined with very narrow roads, as well as a disregard for pedestrians, and that makes for a lot of the same problems that you have in Seoul.

• Leon LaPorte
  12:34 am on February 17th, 2013 83

  81. You should try Vladivostok (or even Manila).

  I did come up with a theory based on careful observation.

  It appears Koreans drive terribly because they know no better, while the far east Russians know better but just don’t care.

  I’ve also witnessed some pretty far out crazy driving in Houston.

• Baek In-je
  1:06 am on February 17th, 2013 84

  Kushi wrote:
  “In South Korea, I get in my car and I assume that every other person on the road is a blooming idiot.”

  When I drove in Korea , I assumed everyone was drunk. Between you and me, we have covered 90% of Korean drivers.

  On a more somber note, I have seen a bus run a red light and hit a Korean woman in the crosswalk. She was the stupid one, the bus driver was just typical. She got the green pedestrian walk signal, and ran like she’d hear the starting pistol go off.

  I saw a minivan hit a Korean man who ran across six lanes of traffic trying to catch a bus. Actually, he only ran across 4 and a half lanes before he was hit. There was no one on either side of the road, so visibility was excellent for the van driver. He never slowed down and just plowed right into the poor soul. He died in front of 60 or 70 people at the bus stop. The citizens were fixing to lynch him when I left. I couldn’t stand to look at his broken, lifeless body.

• G.I. G.I. Joe
  4:20 am on February 17th, 2013 85

  The reckless (certainly not wreckless) driving problem in Korea is born out of, suckled, and nurtured by the following three:

  1) As noted police do nothing. I’ve never seen a police officer even give a traffic citation. In fact, despite their huge police buildings, I rarely see a cop car on the road.

  2) Korean liability laws. I often tell my wife that I like to think that Americans value human life and limb, but it might be because they don’t want to lose their houses and incomes for the rest of their lives. Whichever, it works.

  3) Road Rage. I often tell my wife that Korea needs road rage. The thought of someone just getting out of his vehicle and kicking the shit out of an aggressive a-hole driver. I don’t know how many times IN PARKING LOTS while I carried my children someone threatened me with his killing machine. Fortunately for their noses, my wife is the protector of all things Korean.

  Law enforcement, liability, road rage. Problem solved.

• Glans
  6:58 am on February 17th, 2013 86

  kushibo 75 wrote:
  다니합야해동이 에번 음다 와리우 고타 를키스 는나. 래바 길있 말주 은좋 이신당 난.
  I couldn’t understand a character of that, so I asked Google Translate. It means:
  Attend hapya thawing Leray eumda Waris Wu Gotha neunna kiss.Per raeba gilit malju eunjot who I am.

• Leon LaPorte
  7:00 am on February 17th, 2013 87

  85. I’m not certain we’ve been in the same country, on a couple of those.

• kangaji
  7:35 am on February 17th, 2013 88

  #86: .sdrawkcab ti deaR

• kangaji
  7:39 am on February 17th, 2013 89

  #75: 핫하푸 어있미재

 

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