ROK Drop

Avatar of GI KoreaBy on February 16th, 2013 at 6:34 pm

USFK Major Accused of Raping Australian Woman

Big hat tip to ROK Head William for translating the below article that highlights the latest rape accusation against a USFK servicemember:


To summarize the Korean version, the MAJ and the Aussie GF were together and broke up. 5 months later, the MAJ called the GF to meet up again. The GF met him and the MAJ raped the ex-GF. The ex-GF reported the assault to the Military Authorities, but after 5 months, she heard no news about the disposition of the case, so she reported it to the Yongsan civilian Police. [SBS]

Kangaji has his own translation as well at his website as well.

Here are my thoughts on this, first of all let this play out and let’s see what the facts are before everyone declares this guy guilty. Second of all if the Australian was raped why did she not go to the Korean police? USFK has no jurisdiction off post if that is where the alleged rape happened. I do not know what the woman was hoping for calling the MPs who I would suspect told her to call the Korean police. Waiting five months to call the police means there is likely no evidence of the crime now even if it did happen. This means this likely becomes a he said she said case, but lets see what happens. However I cannot emphasize this enough, if you are sexually assaulted immediately contact the police and file a report.

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  • Bob
    6:48 pm on February 16th, 2013 1

    Something is fishy here. Why not call the Korea Police? Why not go to the hospital?

  • Fanwarrior
    7:59 pm on February 16th, 2013 2

    This being said by the same people who spend all day saying how useless Korean police are and korean doctors are..

    suddenly when a soldier is accused of something, they’re perfectly fine.
    I used to actually enjoy this blog, but the apologist behaviour is really getting out of control here.

    “first of all let this play out and let’s see what the facts are before everyone declares this guy guilty. ”
    “but lets see what happens.”
    Twice in one incredibly short summary.

    She may not have been aware that the MPs didn’t have jurisdiction off the base, but even if they don’t, they still have jurisdiction over the soldiers and their activity. I think I’ve read many times that when soldiers do things off base they still can get punished by the military on-top of any civilian repercussions don’t they? The MPs certainly could have done something. I would guess from her thinking, since the guy was a soldier, and they both weren’t Koreans she thought it would be better to go to the military police. Who knows, maybe they gave her a “we’ll look into it” hahaha and never got back to her.

  • Baek In-je
    9:24 pm on February 16th, 2013 3

    I promise you this goes nowhere. The army wants it to go away. They don’t need the bad publicity. The Korean police will see that they had a prior sexual relationship, therefore it cannot be rape (Korean logic).
    I’ll bet the night went something like this. Major Romance wants to get a piece of booty call Aussie, calls her up, they go out, have a few drinks, end up back at her place, kiss, foreplay, she says no, he pursues it, she gives in. Later tells her friends what happened and they tell her she was raped, tell her she could get a settlement out of it and she should report it. The MPs see a major with nothing in his service jacket, and decide that it isn’t something that warrents ruining his career over, especially due to lack of evidence.

  • Bobby Ray
    9:29 pm on February 16th, 2013 4

    This gal ain’t taking care of business. If she didn’t do no kind of followup for 5 months it wasnt no kind of priority for her. If somebody did that to me or most anybody with a lick of sense they would be screaming from the top of the bell towers until somebody did something. Them older single gals living in Asia mostly seem to be troubled. I’m thinking this gal ain’t no exception. She spent 5 months working it around in her head and telling herself what happened and now she feels driven to go and act on it.

    I aint no rapist so I didn’t go and put a lot if thinking into it but I can’t quite reckon how to rape some gal in a car. Doing it in a car when everyone is consensual is hard enough. I’m also real curious if they can find themselves a copy of this report she made five months ago. I gots to wonder if it ever happened.

  • 2ID Doc
    10:45 pm on February 16th, 2013 5

    Seems that the MPs, hapless as they seem at times would have pointed out to her at the start, that she would need to involve the KNP especially if it happened off-post. Also the article says “Military Authorities” not MPs, CID so kinda vague as who she reported it to?

  • 2ID Doc
    10:50 pm on February 16th, 2013 6

    OK read Kangaji’s article…so he had been booked on the civilian side & she says she talked to the AFOSI but no action, still shady in my brain.

  • Onezime
    12:29 am on February 17th, 2013 7

    Why is it that whenever such a story is brought up here, it is viewed with cynicism? There are many valid reasons why it could have taken here 5 months to press charges, such as trauma and shame. Remember, most sexual assaults go unreported, and yet they happened.

  • Matt
    3:01 am on February 17th, 2013 8

    @onezime-listen to what u just said, ” most sexual assaults go unreported, and yet they happened.” If they’re not proven to be sexual assaults in a court of law, then, by definition, they aren’t sexual assaults. Ergo (couldnt resist!) something happened, but we don’t know what it was.

  • MAJ K
    3:05 am on February 17th, 2013 9

    The article mentioned that the Maj. was USAF and his ex-GF was Korean-Aussie (Aussie Citizen) and she reported immediately to USAF OSI. The rape took place in SeoCho District. They started dating since 2010. That is very long time for a single military personnel to stay in Korea. I wonder if he is still in the peninsular.

  • Smokes
    3:15 am on February 17th, 2013 10

    On a side note, rumor has it the picture used in this post was taken at the 1st Annual ROK Drop Get Together at the Kings Club right when a certain Chinese Canadian showed up.

    The club was put on the off limits list the next day for FP Concerns and no plans for a 2nd Annual meeting have been announced.

  • Baek In-je
    3:46 am on February 17th, 2013 11

    Hahahahaha!
    That f$%king little canadien at the King’s Club!!
    Is that place even still open? It was sketchy as hell.

  • Smokes
    4:04 am on February 17th, 2013 12

    Yup it really was off-limits for a while. Think it’s ok to go there now; as far as being off-limits, it’s still a dive. Hey when are we going to see more episodes of the BIJ Show?

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    5:18 am on February 17th, 2013 13

    @2- So you believe a guy is automatically guilty just because of an accusation? Let me let you in on a secret, just like guys can lie, women lie to. Before convicting people we should let more facts come out.

    As far as contacting Air Force authorities to investigate they have no jurisdiction. The only way the Air Force could try this guy for rape is if the Korean authorities hand over jurisdiction. This has happened before especially when it involves two servicemembers. At most all they did was probably contact the Major and his chain of command. The Major obviously said she consented to the the sex and that she was a spurned lover. OSI probably told his chain of command to be prepared to hand him over for questioning if she went to the Korean police and filed a complaint. Five months later that is what happened. From what I see from the information available there is no fault on OSI in regards to this case. It is her responsibility to contact the Korean police to get the Major handed over for questioning.

  • Fanwarrior
    7:56 am on February 17th, 2013 14

    #13 where was your “wait and see” attitude, when the story about the Nigerian who raped the English teacher was posted or was there no need since he wasn’t a service member. Only service members deserve the benefit of the doubt?

    There is also a difference between a “wait and see” attitude and tripping all over yourself repeatedly in one little paragraph to repeat that over and over.

    I can see the bias so clearly because it’s stamped on your forehead and surrounded by sparkling lights.

  • Bobby Ray
    8:29 am on February 17th, 2013 15

    Fanwarrior we done waited and saw for 5 months. There a big difference with that english teacher who got drunk and went home with a strange Nigerian and then reported to the police real quick though she didnt get much sympathy cause she brought that pretty much on herself.

    This here gal was a long term girlfriend and she didnt make no big stink for 5 months. If this was to happen to you youd be down at the main gate of that base every day yelling for justice. Maybe she reported to them military cops and maybe they didnt tell her nothing. Who knows. Normal people they ask others what to do and report stuff like that to everybody and they follow up a bit more than every 5 months. Thats how people who get wronged act.

    Them crazy gals filled with regret and self loathing they twist normal stuff up in their heads and stew on it for a couple of months then come out blaming everybody else with some big story about how they is the victim. If you aint seen this story play out about a hundred times in your life you need to go around the block a few more times.

  • Avatar of GI KoreaGI Korea
    9:05 am on February 17th, 2013 16

    @14- Can you please point out where I declared the Nigerian guilty, like you have declared this major? Thanks.

  • William
    9:39 am on February 17th, 2013 17

    My “Translation” was more of a gist or summary than anything. I was really suprised I did not see the English media in Korea pick it up any faster. Google translation would have made you all laugh and was a lot of gibberish in places.

    I can talk deeply about sexual assault in the military, why it still happens and how those doing it keep getting away with it. I can tell you about those who try to use the system to make revenge on someone, both sucessfully and in failure.

    Rape is so under reported. A rapist can expect to commit rape statisically on average 6 times before expecting to get reported. Many victims know who raped them. Most involve alcohol or other debilitating substance.

    There are a number or reasons why a rape is not reported to police promptly. To a female victim of a rape by a male, and particularly a male victim of a rape by a male, it is traumatizing. Even with awareness training and knowing the options victims have, many do not think coherently right away. Many feel shame. Many do not want people to know what happened to them. Many still do not have confidence in our system to find and bring the rapist to justice. many know that CID will ask them all KINDS of questions in the moments right when they are still in trauma. Many do not want a physician probing their body for a prolonged time to find the physical evidence. Many do not want to see a chaplain or be asked if they want a chaplain. Some might have had other things going on (like perhaps under-aged drinking) that they do not want command or police to know about.

    There are many reasons why a victim will not report rape. Going thorugh an unrestricted reporting takes a lot of moral courage, conviction, and bravery to go through the whole process in a time of trauma and doubt. many strong soldiers lose their strength to follow through after an incedent like rape when it happens to them.

    It seems our military breeds rapists, but many were of that mind coming in teh military when we accepted just about anyone with two fingers on their writing hand to sign a contract. Sexual assault is a crime committed by criminals. Criminals have a desire to do a crime, but are under restraint (don’t want to get caught unless the odds are right for them) (some don’t care) and wait for a chance to commit the crime undetected, or make their victim not report it, they need an opportunity to do the crime and get away with it. Our more recent history in teh Army has a LOT of remote duty with few visable police, so there is increased opportunity and rape is so under-reported.

    This is all general talk about rape and sexual assault + why it is under-reported or not reported promptly and I am not commenting on this specific case with the above text. I am just showing there are reasons why a victim will not report the crime or delay. Often later tehy tell a friend and teh friend convinces them to report it, but often after the evidence is gone. Many wait too late until the physical evidence is gone or do things to contaminate or jeapordize it.

    Maybe this MAJ did it, maybe not. Maybe GF wants to make trouble for MAJ, maybe not. I do not know. I was just amazed English media in Korea wasn’t writing about this.

    If the military (relating to military members only) went apeshit on court marsalling every servicemember who reported an assault that was found to be an unsubstantiated case (unsubstantiated means not enough evidence found by CID to report finding of substantiated) then there would REALLY be an incentive to NOT report a rape. Do we want a rape victim to be thinking this (getting prosecuted if CID cant find enough evidence) before deciding to report a rape? There are already enough factors out there on the side pressuring a victim to not report the rape. The military DOES go after clear cut false reported case, it is of course the charge of a False Official Report.

    Just some stuff to think about…

  • William
    9:48 am on February 17th, 2013 18

    In the thread about where I first wrote about it, I talked about some possible reasons why she didn’t go straight to the Korean Police.

    Do Aussies in Korea know exactly what to do in this case? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe she trusted the military more than Korean police force. As many Korean Police, lawyer and judge friends as I have, after being here a few years and considering the past history of how difficult it was to get police/criminal justice system to bring a rapist to justice, I can see why she might have some lack of faith in the Korean criminal justice system. She might have knwon or trusted the military to do something of substance, but waiting 5 months for results is just a bit long for a reasonable person, no?

    Maybe she did not want her name known all over Korea as a victim of rape? Who knows what really went down? It could be a number of things. I was just suprised the story wasn’t getting traction in English media here, just the Korean language news media.

    This is a huge story considering the recent situations here.

  • Flunky Brewster
    12:12 pm on February 17th, 2013 19

    7- Don’t believe everything you read in the liberal media. Sexual assault is taken very seriously in the military, once the charge is filed. Those charged are usually guilty until proven guilty, unless the accuser lacks credibility, for some reason. Waiting many months to file a complaint would certainly cast doubt on any claim.
    With that said, if she did file a timely complaint and it was ignored then that’s a bigger story here than the actual assault. Any use of higher rank to coverup a criminal investigation would be major news. But let’s see what happens. Too often the original story doesn’t include all of the details. That’s why so many of us on this site are so cynical when it comes to swallowing every story that comes down the pike. Too often the Korean and liberal American media doesn’t adequately report all of the facts due to incompetence or some grudge the reporter or media outlet may have against the USA and USFK.

  • Flunky Brewster
    12:25 pm on February 17th, 2013 20

    14- This is an opinion blog. It’s not under any obligation to “report” anything except opinions. With that said, the mods do generally show a consistent attitude of “wait and see” towards almost every claim and accusation involving foreigners in Korea. If one accusation sounds suspicious while another sounds more credible then that’s the way it goes. If for whatever reason you want to automatically believe every accusation in the media against foreigners then that’s your choice but don’t insist that others must follow your way of thinking or be “bad people.” Besides, you’re putting a lot of blind faith in what you read in the newspapers and on the internet. That’s not a good idea.
    I think you’ll eventually realize that “wait and see” is the correct call to make in most cases involving reported criminal accusations against foreigners in Korea because the Korean media does a very poor job of reporting anything involving foreigners. Besides, if the police were perfect we wouldn’t need prosecutors, and if prosecutors were perfect we wouldn’t need judges, right?

  • Ole Tanker
    12:27 pm on February 17th, 2013 21

    Obviously the Major needs to be Command referred to the SHARP office for Track I counselling.

  • Kingkitty
    6:58 pm on February 17th, 2013 22

    See it does not matter the rank or nationality….this is why women should not be on the front lines with the grunts. Too much drama is not good for military readiness.

  • Onezime
    7:06 pm on February 17th, 2013 23

    #8,

    So, if you murder someone and nobody finds the body or any evidence implicating you, the murder never happened?

  • someotherguy
    7:31 pm on February 17th, 2013 24

    @17,

    Sorry can’t buy most of that. Having served for a stint and seen secondhand (happened to friends and acquaintances) the “post-consensual-sex rape” claims, I’m calling BS here. The Military does not “breed rapists” or any such BS.

    You want to know what most reported “rapes” are? Two young people are at some social function / location and have a few or more drinks. Hook up and have sex, possibly several times. Later girl finds out the guy is putting it to other girls, words ensue and later *rape* is called. The US Military is so sensitive to “rape” allegations that it goes crazy and throws the guy at the wolves without any head to due process. Guy is forced to prove his innocence otherwise he’s assumed guilty.

    Don’t believe me, do a little research about the federal appeals courts that’s been overturning all these UCMJ rape cases. Turns out that assuming someone’s guilty is considered prejudice (legal meaning) and unconstitutional. It was after that ruling that the number of prosecuted (as in went to actual trial) rape cases slowed way the hell down. You’ve gotta actually have evidence now instead of just assuming the guy committed a felony and kangarooing him.

  • Leon LaPorte
    7:37 pm on February 17th, 2013 25

    24. But that’s not fair!

  • someotherguy
    7:56 pm on February 17th, 2013 26

    @25

    The problem has to do with the definition of “rape”. It’s become so broad and near unlimited now that lots of bad judgements can be filed under it. It gives females a license to do whatever they want and then just blame it on the guy months later.

    The definition is any intercourse when one member doesn’t desire it. They do not need to have communicated their lack of desire nor does a previous affirmation of desire prevent prevent them from changing their mind. If their feelings change from affirmation to lack of desire they are not required to of communicated it. If they communicated desire but change their mind months later then it’s accepted as rape.

    So basically, guy + girl have consensual sex. If during sex she changes her mind, even if she does not tell the guy, then it’s rape. If after the sex (no statute of limitations) she changes her mind, then it’s rape. To make it all the worse, if the female had a single drink that night then the male is immediately guilty of rape. A female can not legally give consent if their judgement is impaired, the degree of impairment isn’t specified nor required. As long as she can say “I was drunk”, there were people saying “we saw her drink alcohol” and the guy admits to having sexual relations then it’s pretty easy for the prosecution to get a guilty verdict. The guy could have a video tape of her going crazy and really giving it to him along with a signed MFR from her giving consent and none of it would even matter.

    The legal problem happens when she’s immediately assumed a victim and therefor the male a perpetrator. That assumption of guilt prejudices the court (judge & jury) against the defendant prior to the trial even starting. That’s the basis of the appellate court overturning the convictions.

    Anyhow I used to tell every soldier of mine to avoid having any sexual relations with any service member. They were putting their military career, future civilian career and even jail time on the whims of a young female. Far better to go out and meet local girls who don’t pull that BS. Looks like one of the local girls heard, most likely from a friend, how the UCMJ system works towards guys and “rape”. Probably (pure speculation here) the reason she went straight to the MPs hoping to get it tried through the base rather then the Korean system.

  • William
    9:05 pm on February 17th, 2013 27

    #24, when military “Breeds” those who sexually assault people, I am serious. I’ll explain my point below with build-up to a conclusion. Basically, sexual assault happens at every level, but the breeding thing is about the culture that made an environment fostering it and leaders who think they can get away with it by bullying, since in our past, we had really heavy-handed actions from leaders that was the accepted norm. also, in our last 10 years, we have had so many remote duty situations that gave a lot more opportunity fro those willing to commit the crime and perceive they can get away with it.

    Our previous and to a large extent current military culture in this area bears that out. While there has been a lot of improvement in commnders’ and Soldiers’ sensitivity to this subject, we a rre a LONG way away from being a safe place from fellow military members who rape or sexually assault other military members.

    In the not so distant past and occasional present, a commander would ask a female Soldier what she was wearing or why she would wear that to such and such place around such and such people. Commanders would blame the victim, then move the victim to another outfit instead of trying to solve the problem. In the past, commanders could hide sexual harrassment claims and assaults (if the victim didn’t go to CID)

    Our culture is reflected daily and pounded into Soldiers during PT. You say PT? Ask anyone who was in teh Army before 2000 and ask what kind of songs we sung while running PT. Mommy told Sally not to go downtown is one of them tha glorified going out getting wild with the wrong crowd and sally supposedly gave birth to a baby greatly resembling the 1SG. what about the cadence where being airbourne ranger was a life of sex and danger, really appealing to young males. These are a couple of many cadence songs glorifying this kind of behavior. We fostered it, approved it, and re-enforced it daily. I am not even considering what kind of culturization Soldiers have coming in, it is also part of the culture problem we have.

    In the past, USFK teamed up with those running prostitution rings and gave medical exams and bills of health to the workers to allow them to work in their field. We as a military approved this and executed this for years until we stopped that a while back.

    Up to teh early 2000s, and in some places today, it was/is acceptable to really get in someone’s grill and be really aggressive and demeaning in a strong manner with zero recourse, Soldier had to absorb it. What do you think is going through a victim’s mind when such a leader sexually assaults them and what do you think they feel about anyone believing them? In those days, and in some places today, teh senior is believed, at least in teh eys of the victim. many victims were bullied into believing they had no way out.

    Ask anyone what kind of stuff went down in formal and semi-formal unit events. Way too many stuff about getting super drunk and acting the fool, all approved by command, re-enforced and supported. Even today, there are still stories in teh news aboout excess drunk and bad behavior at these events where the command present practically forced people to get drunk like crazy and act the fool. This stuff still goes on today.

    Then we have the “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas” syndrom. that was REALLY prevailant in the day and still is to a large degree. That is re-enforced by many to this day. That all fosters a lack of restraint and wild behavior, it glorifies it and makes it desirable to the crew. this stuff is happening daily in our military at all levels and is still fostered.

    These are some of the reasons why we still have a in imperfect culture that needs much more change, even if there has been a lot of improvement in teh last ten years in these areas, it still goes on and is fostered. Those are trained to lose restraint and when in a situation (many more of those with deployment) where no one is looking or the perception is so, many lose restraint.

    That is why I say military breeds rapists and those who act badly. We are also getting a lot of people entering military already who are bad actors.

    I’ll discuss your point about the flip side below. (I agree what you say happens and it is unfair witch-hunt stuff)

  • William
    9:10 pm on February 17th, 2013 28

    Oh, forgot to mention the command emphisis on calling military police. Command used to get REALLY irate if you called military police without calling them first. That GUARENTEED a trip to see teh CDR. Thsi still happens in some places today, but not nearly as much as before.The culture of trying to handle everything at teh lowest level is STRONG. It is appropriate in many situations involving everyday situations like Soldier A does not like soldier B saying he is ugly in front of others. it is NOT a good way to address a sexual assault. that handle the thing at teh lowest level is drilled into everyone and can over-ride common sense.

  • William
    9:21 pm on February 17th, 2013 29

    As for the unfair prosecution and conviction of Soldiers of the crime of rape in absence of physical evidence, yes I agree that happens. I agree with your perception that there are Soldiers convicted of rape when they did not commit rape, often by vengeful accusers. I agree with your perception that some commanders are over-zealious in pursuing these cases and sometimes in the light of total absence of evidence.

    What do we do when there is an accusation of rape, but no physical evidence? Declare it didn’t happen and let it slide? Assume it happened and hang the accused right away to the nearest tree like in the old days of wild west?

    No. There is a system in place to address this.

    IF the rape is reported as an UNRESTRICTED report, CID investigates. They have a lot of experience and a system to weed out who is likely bullshitting and who isn’t. They can tell if it may be somewhere in between. Then again, a rape either happened or it didn’t, there is no in-between, but CID jos is to make findings and present them to the legal people procecuting the case, not to make a judgement against an accused. CID collects evidence through its investigation and presents findings, they are not the Judge. Results of investigation indicate it likely happened, likely didn’t happen, or possible happened to such and such degree based on evidence of investigation, that provides material for the lawyers to decide whether to move forward or not, that is all.

    What do you propose we should do to address a claim of sexual asault that is different from now?

  • William
    9:48 pm on February 17th, 2013 30

    I pretty much agree with #24′s advice to Soldiers to be VERY careful, if not totally avoid intercourse with anyone on post or with other servicemembers. Even a crime procecuted in the civilian side MAY, but not ordinarily be addressed by UCMJ or Courts martial. Teh possibility is not worth it. I agree.

    Why is our situation like this where we would advise a Soldier to avoid intercourse altogether? It is in my opinion the current mess of sexual assault in the military.

    In the training the Army gives to Soldiers about sexual assault, we stress that the party who consumes ANY ammount of alcohol prior to intercourse, even if that intercourse is clearly mutually concented upon, that the one who consumed alcohol lost the ability to give concent, PERIOD. When we say this in training, many eyes roll and look up in disbelief or apathy.

    That is a tough one for a young Soldier to accept. How many young female Soldiers meet young male Soldiers and thorughout the course of an evening do NOT consume any alcohol? OR flipside only male Soldier consumed alcohol? Answer: NOT A LOT.

    How many young male Soldiers will refuse to have intercourse with a willing female Soldier who had at least SOME alcohol that evening? DAMNED FEW.

    Reality is that the male Soldier will have intercourse with the female Soldier, drinks be damned.

    Does that constitute a rape or sexual assault?

    It sure does if the Soldier who consumed alcohol before, or during the intercourse says or otherwise indicates NO. That is a given even WITHOUT alcohol. But if alcohol was consumed by one party, then the ability to give consent is gone and if later, the one who consumed alcohol claims a sexual asault, then the one who had intercourse with the one who consumed alcohol commited a sexual assault, period.

    Was this situation mutual consentual intercourse? That is what one or both thought, but it doesn’t work that way.

    If the one who consumed alcohol wakes up the next day and reports the intercourse as a sexual assault, it will be investigated as a sexual assault. If the investigation sunstantiates the claim of a sexual assault and determined intercourse happened while the complainant had any alcohol that night, then the findings are passed on to the lawyers and it can go to court. In such a clear cut case, there WAS a sexual assault. If the complainant goes directly to the clinic and gets a SAFE exam that collects evidence that is used in an UNRESTRICTED report, then that evidence can be pretty damning against the Soldier who THOUGHT he/she was having consentual intercourse.

    Is this fair?

    Well. I say this. It is clear that the ability to give consent is gone when one party consumes alcohol. This is emphisized during initial and periodic SHARP training.

    Does the military do a good enough job of convincing young Soldiers of this?

    My opinion, no. Could we do better? My opinion, yes we can. Will we ever get accross to everyone? my opinion, no, but that is the goal to eliminate sexual assault. We get and will be getting all the time new Soldiers whose culturization has not yet included this, since it takes time to change this, I believe it will always be an ongoing challenge.

    Does lack of the military doing an 100% effective job convincing young Soldiers excuse a Soldier from the crime of a sexual assault when a complainant comes forward to make an unrestricted report of sexual assault where he/she consumed alcohol?

    No, it does not excuse the Soldier or exempt them from being procecuted if the evidence shows that case to a certain degree that the lawyers decide to go forward.

    We as a military have not been 100% effective in this area and will not get there anytime soon, despite our lofty goals. However, to get there, progress is needed. We have made progress and make more progress the more and more we discuss this with leaders and Soldiers, but we have to be real, we will not get 100% there right away.

  • Fanwarrior
    9:55 pm on February 17th, 2013 31

    #16 can you show where I declared him guilty as you’ve accused me of doing? it’s okay..we’ll wait. Again, the bias is spilling out all over the place, are you going to be a grown-up and retract your lie?

    All I did was give a possible line of thinking as to why she may have acted as she did. Nowhere in there did I say he was guilty, nor did I say the nigerian wasn’t, I just called you out on the obviously biased handling of various news stories.

    You didn’t declare the nigerian guilty, you also didn’t trip all over your self trying to spin the story with “let’s wait and see” as you have here.

  • William
    10:01 pm on February 17th, 2013 32

    The most practical thing the military can do to combat sexual asault is to take away the perception that the perp can get away with it. The deal about getting caught is often the only thing restraining them. If sexual assualt is more frequently reported and followed up, then later there will be less perception in the minds of criminals and give them a lot to think about. CCTV in barracks are one tool, but educating the force to convince them that RESTRICTED reporting gives the best chance to bring the perp to justice is most effective. We need more time for this to take better effect.

    For some, well some do not think and act upon an opportunity. The next best way is to reduce the opportunity. This is done through education/awareness and thorugh changes on the enterprise side, like not having remote duty or creating situations that require a servicemember to be separated or isolated.

    Many, too many sexual assaults had someone or some people present who could have picked up on some signs. Not every sexual assault happens in a dark alley with no one watching. When the force better knows teh signs or indicators of a predator trying to juice a victim with alcohol and try to isolate/separate them from the crowd, those kind of things can be picked up by those vigilant.

    We are trying to achieve this in the military, but it is mighty difficult to achieve a great majority level of education and ability/willingness to act. We have come a long way, but need to get much better. this kind of thing takes a lot of time to overcome and we are no where near getting there.

  • Tim Leery
    10:02 pm on February 17th, 2013 33

    Much of the problems with the definitions of “sexual assault” go back to how it is all explained to female soldiers. They are told that any accusations they make will be treated as the absolute truth and that it is up to the accused male soldiers to prove their innocence. Plus, the females are told that anything that makes them feel “uncomfortable” is sexual assault. That includes situations that they initiate, and female soldiers initiate a lot of sexual bulls–t.
    What’s coming down the pike next is how they’re going to deal with same sex sexual assaults. That’s where females will be screwing over other females because someone made them go to the field or work late. Then we’ll see how much they enjoy wearing those shoes.

  • someotherguy
    11:20 pm on February 17th, 2013 34

    So we got a new troll I see /sigh

  • Leon LaPorte
    11:40 pm on February 17th, 2013 35

    33. Life’s tough all over.

  • My 2 Cents
    12:43 am on February 18th, 2013 36

    @Someotherguy. He is not a troll and you cheapen any point you wish to make with those empty accusations. While you (and I) may not (fully) agree with him, his points are well thought out and presented in a logical fashion. They (should) remind us that the issue is not black and white and there are other factors to consider.

    William’s comments are welcome and should be encouraged as an example of the quality comments ROK Drop wishes to attract.

    Someotherguy, if you disagree with him, select the specific points or concepts you find to be incorrect and voice you contrary opinion, preferably backed up with facts, logic and/or experience.

    If you choose not to do this and simply think you have won an argument by claiming troll (or racist, Nazi, liberal, moonbat, etc.) it makes YOU the troll, especially in comparison to his well-presented thoughts.

  • Leon LaPorte
    1:11 am on February 18th, 2013 37

    35. Well put. What would be the point if we all agreed (and only allowed agreement), a little mutual admiration society?

    I’m tired of the anti-troll trolls.

    /and we should ban only those who call for others to be banned. :grin:

  • Bobby Ray
    1:55 am on February 18th, 2013 38

    William you make some mighty fine points but maybe you is putting that cart way before the horse. The issue here is responsibility. We learn not to play with rattlesnakes and to look both ways before crossing the road and don’t touch the bare wires and not to drink alcohol if we can’t be responsible for our actions and their consequences. If you wanted to stop all this here hanky pankey it would just be stated that alcohol consumption ain’t no excuse for them gals to not be responsible for their action like consenting or going home with some fellow or putten themselves in a position that any reasonable fellow would figure shes hot to trot. Them gals would start taking care of their own business right quick when there went no pity for they that brought it on themselves and fibbing for some kind of revenge wouldnt work no longer. Some people say them gals get special treatment and some say they don’t but it seem gals can use alcohol as an excuse for their actions but fellows get themselves hammered for it. Don’t seem right.

  • Fanwarrior
    3:40 am on February 18th, 2013 39

    #37 absolutely. It’s a mystery how it is that we assume that a girl who has had a drink loses the ability to consent, but a guy who has had a drink still has the ability to form criminal intent…

  • William
    7:54 am on February 18th, 2013 40

    #33, I see a lot of stuff coming down teh pike that will be mighty uncomfortable to deal with.

    Consider a hetrosexual male who really does not like homosexuals, but an openly gay male is assigned as a room mate in the barracks. Soldier A is very uncomfortable with soldier B (who is openly gay) living in the same room and sharing the same shower facilities, etc and living in close quarters with him.

    What Can Soldier A do? can he get teh 1SG to change room mates? No. Dignity and respect rule must be followed. Unless the Soldier B does things that indicate sexual harrassment or other illegal things, soldier B will remain teh room mate no matter how much Soldier A dislkes it.

    Solier A types will make a huge fuss over this thing. That is coming for sure. Similar conflicts will likely come as well and many leaders are not currently trained or able or willing to handle such situations with equality and professionalism following Army CMD guidance and regualtions.

  • William
    7:57 am on February 18th, 2013 41

    No one called me a troll, yet.

    If my actions over time indicate I am a troll, then great, the name will stick and it would be deserved.

    People in this space seem to have a pretty good sense of humor and also what a troll is, so I’m not worried about this matter.

  • William
    8:01 am on February 18th, 2013 42

    #2

    She may not have been aware that the MPs didn’t have jurisdiction off the base, but even if they don’t, they still have jurisdiction over the soldiers and their activity. I think I’ve read many times that when soldiers do things off base they still can get punished by the military on-top of any civilian repercussions don’t they? The MPs certainly could have done something. I would guess from her thinking, since the guy was a soldier, and they both weren’t Koreans she thought it would be better to go to the military police. Who knows, maybe they gave her a “we’ll look into it” hahaha and never got back to her.

    Above was quote, partial.

    I agree that the military MAY, but usually will NOT pursue punishment vs a servicemember convicted of a punishable crime in the civilian courts. That is right from AR 27-10.

  • guitard
    8:19 am on February 18th, 2013 43

    William wrote:

    Soldier A is very uncomfortable with soldier B (who is openly gay) living in the same room and sharing the same shower facilities, etc and living in close quarters with him.

    What Can Soldier A do? can he get the 1SG to change room mates? No.

    First off – Soldier A just needs to get over it. He’s been amongst gay men all his life – and no doubt, he’s showered with plenty of them during his life time – albeit unknowingly.

    Having said that – 1SGs deal with situations where roommates – for various reasons – don’t want to be roommates. If it’s serious enough, the 1SG will move one of them.

  • Smokes
    10:38 am on February 18th, 2013 44

    37 Leon, did you just give props to your own comment? ;)

    35 Leon LaPorte
    11:40 pm on February 17th, 2013
    33. Life’s tough all over.

    37 Leon LaPorte
    1:11 am on February 18th, 2013
    35. Well put.

  • Glans
    1:53 pm on February 18th, 2013 45

    Smokes, maybe comments have been deleted and the numbers thereby messed up.

  • Fanwarrior
    5:38 pm on February 18th, 2013 46

    #45 looks like one was added, maybe sitting in moderation. 38 was 37 yesterday

  • Leon LaPorte
    8:01 pm on February 18th, 2013 47

    I’m so confused! :roll:

  • Bobby Ray
    8:46 pm on February 18th, 2013 48

    Maybe you boys should address people by name instead of number. That name never changes. I saw that the first time I used one of these here blogs but folks insist on using numbers and it’s always getting changed around for one reason or another. I myself generally don’t bang my pecker with a hammer more than once in a row.

    William if they told her they’d look into it and didn’t get back with her shame on them. If she sat around for 5 months waiting for her phone to ring shame on her and shame on dummies making excuses for that level of personel incompetence.

    William you make a lot of good points but you ain’t got a lick if sense if you don’t smell a big fat rat here. Ain’t no normal girl act this way in this situation. If she bothers to report it she bothers to see it through.

    And I say again all them problems you talk about sound like real problems until you realize they is all self created. Make them gals responsible for what happens to them after drinking just like a fellow is responsible when he drives after drinking and all them other problems will dry right up as if they never existed.

    I was looking at the internet and it turns out some stranger grabbing a gal don’t happen so often. It’s almost always some drunk gal playing with some drunk guy and shes controlling the situation playing him along until the last moment. I ain’t saying she got it coming but like getting behind the wheel of a car after drinking she darn well knows what can happen. It dont take no rocket surgeon to avoid most of them situations neither.

    When they start saying, Oh you was drinking with a lonely fellow in his room what did you think would happen, a big chunk of them gals is going to be as careful as a drunk with car keys but a few of them won’t just like dummies still drive drunk knowing the risks and all.

    It’s a bit offensive that the official line is that men are responsible for their actions after drinking but women are not. Ain’t no policy worth a darn basing itself on that kind of inequality. If you want folks to take all this seriously it has to be serious otherwise it just further objectified gals as stupid and childish and irresponsible and in need of constant care and not equal to men. Maybe thats the message that intended.

  • Avatar of Leon LaPorteLeon LaPorte
    11:12 pm on February 18th, 2013 49

    Maybe you boys should address people by name instead of number

    Sometimes, mayhap, the cure is worse than the condition. If you know what I mean, there jelly-bean.

  • guitard
    3:39 am on February 19th, 2013 50

    You can actually quote text and make it appear in a separate box if you use “blockquote.”

    At the beginning of the quoted text, you put this: (except don’t put a space in there – I only did it to stop it from doing what I am trying to explain).

    At the end of the quoted text, you put this: (same deal – don’t put a space in there).

    It will look like this:

    XXXXX XXXXX XXXxxVVV VVVVVVVVVV VvvvZZZZ ZZZZZZZzz

  • guitard
    3:40 am on February 19th, 2013 51

    Well . . . sheeeeeeeeit. The blockquotes that I put it didn’t appear in my post. Just do a google for “blockquote” and you’ll be able to find out how to use them.

  • Glans
    4:42 am on February 19th, 2013 52

    Are we sure the accused is a plain old major? Not a sergeant major, not a major general?

 

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